The background to this(sorry about the length, hopefully puts in context though):

Married for 15 years, 2 kids.

We have recently been through a few issues with the marriage and worked through them generally we lost touch with each other which led to lots of tension, dissatisfaction, upset and stress. We have worked this out over a few months and it hasn’t been this good in years, we seem happy, visibly, emotionally and do so much more with ach other.

My wife, during the negative times started smoking (secretly), I estimate about 6 months ago, she won’t really tell me. I HATE smoking, don’t know why but I really detest it, always have, would never have married a smoker etc etc.

So during working out our relationship issues together, I found out about the smoking, found the evidence.

1st time I went off my head, totally wrong, shouted a lot, swore a lot (I don’t) and she said she would stop.

About 6 weeks later, I still suspected and raised very calmly, denied, a few days later raised very calmly again and she admitted she still was and would not stop, too stressed. I agreed to accept it (how good of me!! ), I am joking I know it sounds crap that I agreed etc, but I sought of decided if I was creating stress, harping on about smoking wouldn’t help, so I said my piece and completely backed off.

This has been quite successful, as I say we are getting on great, her stress levels are visibly down and she is happy and I am not obsessing on it (much).

The question:

My selfish hope through this is that she will decide to quit, her choice because I know I cannot make her. The reason I backed off was all about letting her find her way to quit.

Last night she fell asleep watching TV with me (something we couldn’t have done 3 months ago) and when she woke put a jacket on and went outside for a smoke. This really upset me, I hoped (and I actually sat and thought about it as she was asleep) that she would just go to bed when I woke her without a smoke. When she didn’t as I say I visibly got upset, after the smoke and when in bad she asked why, I then started spent 5 minutes explaining how upset I am, why she shouldn’t smoke, what the dangers are, how she might not see the kids grow up, why it was unfair to our daughter who has Cystic Fibrosis etc etc.

I feel bad this morning, but genuinely feel selfishly that I should not apologize, I gave her a hug this morning, told her I loved her and went to work. I can see though that it was on her mind.

What do I do, I can see that I am being selfish in a way, its her decision, but I can also see it sits beneath the surface for me and will keep coming up over time?

Since you have both worked through your other issues,perhaps your wife needs a crutch so to speak.

There are so many products on the market to help quit, without pushing the issue, could you get some information for her on the products available, and offer them to her,nicely!

There only suggestions,but maybe one will appeal, dealing with a child with C.F, is difficult,and smoke sticks to your clothes,keeping the air free of toxins is vital to your child's lung function.

I know how you feel... Powerless to stop someone's choice to smoke.

The unfortunate thing is that they have to make the decision to stop. Very frustrating as it is, the more you tell them you don't like it, the more they want to smoke.

From what I have learned about addiction the only constructive thing you can say is how their smoking makes you feel... i.e.. When you smoke I feel very upset. I feel worried that this is going to affect our child's health. Never attack the person and try to stay calm/not get angry. Reassure your wife that you love her. It is the smoking you have a problem with, not her.

The reason smokers don't like being told what to do are many fold: they enjoy their habit, It calms them down and makes them feel less anxious, they feel secretly guilty about their habit and telling them to stop reinforces these negative feelings, they think non-smokers don't understand, are killjoys, have a different perception of life which is focused on health and the long-term, rather than pleasure and the now.

When two people disagree on something like this and one person is not ready or willing to change, you might have to make compromises in the meantime... i.e. only smoke outside. Change clothes and have a shower after a smoke to limit your child's exposure to smoke. DAMAGE CONTROL.

It is frustrating for you but you need to stay supportive of your wife and continue to love her. With time she may move towars the next step and quit but you cannot force this. I don't think that smoking should be a deal breaker if she is willing to compromise somewhat as above. Successful relationships require understanding and compromise.

If you are overly worried about the health effects of smoking on your partner, I think you have reason to do so. But please realise that bad health can happen to anyone, regardless of their smoking status. We are all living a fragile life so to speak. Realising this can help cut down the worry, as it has done for me in the past. e.g. a car accident should probably be higher on the cards of worry than should cancer from smoking, even though smoking increases the risk of cancer. Its all about perspective.

I agree with Redhead, that keeping smoking away from your child with CF is very important. Even smoke on clothes is irritating to a child's lungs.

I really hope you can work through this. It is very testing and frustrating. You are doing well to recognise and talk about this issue.

As you are now finding out the hard way - you can't make another person do what you want. For whatever reason, she feels she needs to smoke and she won't look at other ways to relieve her stress. Perhaps she needs time to herself and this is the only way that she can find it. There is very little that you can do.

Your initial decision to back off was the right one. You have now stated your case, again, about how you feel. It's hard but you must try to accept that this is her choice - you mightn't like it, but you need to learn to accept it. In the meantime, investigate other ways that she can have 'down time' and ease the stress she must be feeling.

The real problem is not so much the smoking, but your response to it. You need to find ways to manage your own anger and distress over this issue and ensure that it doesn't become the proverbial 'elephant in the corner' in your relationship. Make an effort to focus on her needs rather than thinking about how much you hate her smoking.

There are some blessings I suppose - it could be a lot worse. She could be drinking a bottle of brandy a day or spending hours looking at dating sites on the computer! Sorry to be flippant.

Smoking, like alcohol, is an addiction. The person addicted will not stop until they are ready.

You can be upset, you can harp, nag and scream all you want, that won't change a thing.

She'll continue until she's ready to quit.

So, can you live with this or will you let it destroy what you worked so hard to build?

We have recently been through a few issues with the marriage and worked through them generally we lost touch with each other which led to lots of tension, dissatisfaction, upset and stress. We have worked this out over a few months and it hasn’t been this good in years, we seem happy, visibly, emotionally and do so much more with ach other.

It seems that, while you have quickly worked out your marriage problems, perhaps there are lingering resentments that makes you focus on her smoking so much.

If you are getting along so well, what's the deal with nagging her about her choice to smoke. She's smoking outside, she is not doing anything illegal, it is her problem, not yours, but only if it is a problem to her.

While, as you said, you would never had married "a smoker" (as in a lower social class identification way, rather than a 'person who smokes') you need to back off and let her come to her own decisions about quitting, cutting back, etc. No doubt she knows very clearly how you feel about people who smoke, and that you are disgusted by this. Your actions could very well be adding to her stress level, and she smokes because it gives her pleasure and alleviates stress. I can't read her mind, but people smoke, and smoke more, when they are stressed out.

It would be a good and healthier choice for her to quit, and hopefully she will choose to do that. But only when she is ready, and the stress of being pressured into quitting, is less stressful than the actual cessation of the act itself.

You sound like my wife, making such a big deal out of my personal choice. Smokers may try very hard to quit, but sometimes it takes years to overcome the psychological addiction, and the physical cravings. She doesn't want to quit, so leave her alone as long as she removes herself from you and your kids, and washes her hands.

You can make this a big deal by obsessing over it, and cause a lot more stress, and tensions between you, or you can deal with your distaste for her habit, like you do her stinking farts.

Honestly, what if she told you about something you do that makes her want a cigarette really badly?

In loving marriages we let our partners have their faults, and deal with them in a positive manner.

(Candles in the bathroom helps too.)

If it were just you, I would leave it at back-off and don't pressure her.

However a sick child is involved. So, I am going to suggest a compromise. Since she smokes outside, it would be even more appropriate. Get her a smoking jacket. Just a light or heavy coat (depending on where you live) with a hood she can pull on when she goes outside for a smoke. That way she can limit the amount of smoke and such that gets on her clothing and in her hair.

As you already know, it has to be her choice to stop smoking. When she does, be ready to be supportive.

Background – Married 15 years, together 20, 2 kids 11&7

Synopsis:
Moved a year ago to new area(different country). Wife has become very good friends with a stay home dad. Our marriage has been through some tough times over the last year, but in last 3 months we have resolved most issues. During the tough times got a bit obsessed on the relationship with the stay home dad, to the point of accusing an affair.

That’s all behind us and we are great overall, genuinely I believe no affair, at least physically.

The problem is, even though I have no doubt over a physical affair, I do have concerns over the relationship and my wife’s lack of acknowledgement of my concerns.

First let me say, I know I shouldn’t have a problem, its my problem, I am jealous of the time she is with him and the special relationship that they have, they are best friends.

As a result, I have struggled with this a lot over recent months, I obsess in quiet, my strategy on this issue has been to try and be quiet, not commenting, keeping the peace over it. BUT I sometimes cannot say nothing and feel I shouldn't have to either. I am going to list a few examples of behavior, that I personally find concerning and genuinely look for a view on whether this is me solely or suggestions.

Ex 1 - I go out of town with a friend for an evening, stayed away, when I get back next day talk about each others evening, she fails to mention that the guy came around at 1:30 in the morning and had drinks out the back of the house. She actually evaded the question and led me to believe that another friend left at 1:30 and she went to bed, found out weeks later he was around.

Ex 2 – I come home from work as I feel ill, she’s not in, rang her, out down Wall Mart, her car is on the drive, I asked you gone down with x(the guy), no, but your car is here, oh er yes, oh er yes I’m with him now.

Ex 3 – She will spend all day(literally) with the guy 5+hours, then in the evening say she doesn’t feel like talking(which is fine), she will then at 11 o’clock in the evening take the dog for a walk and spend 15-20 minutes talking with him outside his house.

Ex 4 – She receives texts at gone midnight and gets into text sessions, sometimes 10+ each way.

There seems to be to be a lack of consideration of the effect to me of her actions, she has always been a very giving person to her friends, to a point where she will allow that to detract from ‘Us’, I know that, she knows that but it feels different with this issue.

All of these, any many more examples I have discussed with her, part of my issue is she doesn’t see any point to what I raise. Is this me? Or suggestions please.

Any advise on counseling is mute, during all our issues she would not and will not. I have tried to explain emotional fidelity but she laughs it off and says I am being stupid about it.

There is always 3 sides to every story, Yours, hers and the truth.
Just going by yours, I would agree with you and I would feel hurt.

Hello R,

No, I don't think that's it you. I agree with the poster above. There are 3 sides to the story.

You mentioned that when you try to talk to your wife about the situation, she laughs it off and says you are being "stupid" about it?

Let me ask you something, when you try to talk to her, how does the conversation go?

Do you start to tell her, then she laughs it off, and you let it go?

I don't think that she is cheating on you physically, but she is definitely getting something out of it, whether it be mental/emothional..

My advice to you is to really sit her down and tell her that this is a big concern of yours. Don't let her minipulate the conversation. You take control over it and let her know that this is very hurtful for you to see. You want to be that man that she confide in and laughs with and shares her day with. Not another man. I wish you luck my friend.

She may not be having a physical affair but she is having an emotional one.

How much time do you two spend together? You say she spends 5 plus hours with him every day, they go out together, she tells you she doesn't feel like talking to you but she'll go talk to him?

I'd be upset too.

Time to sit down with her and tell her how you feel about this. Be honest but non threatening. Try not to accuse her of anything. Lead with things like "I feel...." and "I don't understand...", not "You make me feel.." or "you are.." try not to make it about her and this guy, but about you and your feelings.

Calm and rational, but completely honest.

It's a juggling act, but that's the way to get somewhere with her. If you accuse it will just make her back away from you and continue her behavior.

Good luck.

a) When I talk with her, she dismisses it and if I persist she seems to get it, but her actions after suggests she is just agreeing to stop the discussion.

a) Until about 3 months ago we spent little time together, we were cohabiting a house effectively, we have fixed a lot in our relationship since this. We now through effort(and I do believe effort on both sides) try to spend time in the evenings together. A lot of her day while I am at work is typically spent with him and his kids, to the point where she has to go to the gym in the evening when I get back from work, which also miffs me a bit.

a) When I talk with her, she dismisses it and if I persist she seems to get it, but her actions after suggests she is just agreeing to stop the discussion.

a) Until about 3 months ago we spent little time together, we were cohabiting a house effectively, we have fixed a lot in our relationship since this. We now through effort(and I do believe effort on both sides) try to spend time in the evenings together. A lot of her day while I am at work is typically spent with him and his kids, to the point where she has to go to the gym in the evening when I get back from work, which also miffs me a bit.

Do you have kids?

If not, why isn't she working?

Maybe getting a job would make her less dependent on this guy.

It sounds like she's stuck in a rut, in a new place, lonely and has found a friend to take some of that away.

I don't think she's cheating on you, but she's also not taking your feelings into consideration. This is not good for your marriage. You have to find a compromise, both of you do.

Hello again R,

I had to go back and re-read you original post. There was no mention of this man being married? I would think so considering he is a stay at home Father, how else would he supplement an income.

So, is he married, and if so, what does his wife think about this relationship?

Yes, that is a good question!

He is married and Tuesday through Thursday his wife lives away from the house due to her work, so she is only about 3 days a week, which allows some of the extensive time that they spend together. What she thinks I really don't know, she is a friend with my wife and all seems fine.

How much is she running away from home?

I know from your other thread that you have a daughter with Cystic Fibrosis and that you "HATE" smoking which she started doing during the bad time. Does she feel less judged for her smoking next door?

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/marriage/wife-smoking-15-years-upsets-me-deeply-406262.html

I think she may be bored. Since you moved to another country are there restrictions on getting a job? Is your daughter's health a factor in her ability to keep one?

I know you don't want to hear it, but I think marriage counseling may be good for you even if she won't attend the sessions. I think it might help you learn ways to open conversations with her about your concerns without making her defensive. She could even change her mind.

Hello again R,

Now it all makes sense to me. They both are lonely, and searching for companionship, not a sexual relationship, just companionship.

When it all comes down to it, it really doesn't matter whether is wife is ok/not OK with this situation, the point is, you are uncomfortable with it. Your wife should maybe consider making more friends, girl frineds.

The fact that they text 10+ times or even at all in the middle of the night, doesn't sit well with me. I would have to say that I would be livid if my spouse were texting the opposite sex in the middle of the night, UNLESS it was a relative!

Altenweg is correct about sitting your wife down in a calm manner. Arguing with her will not get any where, it will only create more problems. You definitely need to get to the root of the problem before you fly off the handle. You don't want that. Good luck.

Cat1864 yes she probably is happier there, he smokes by the way. I have considered the same, even though we are good together, there are still tough aspects to our home life, one daughter with CF and the other a Tween who is causing stress.

Cat1864 yes she probably is happier there, he smokes btw. I have considered the same, even though we are good together, there are still tough aspects to our home life, one daugher with CF and the other a Tween who is causing stress.

I can see that there are tough aspects to your home life and I do understand that in relationships one person can't be expected to be all things to the other partner.

But. And it's a big but. When one partner starts to get considerable emotional sustenance from another person, then that's getting very close to being cheating. I say this because when you want to talk to your wife, or 'debrief' about your day, she says she's too tired. I say this because when she wants to talk she texts stay-at-home-dad, or takes the dog for a walk and talks to him over the fence.

I can also understand that time can make a relationship stale and that people can take each other for granted. But. And again, it's a big but. She seems, from what you say, to be dismissive of your concerns, and unwilling to see how her behavior is hurting you.

Talk. Away from the house and the kids if you can. Let her know what you told us.

Walk the dog with her, invite stay-at-home-dad and his wife around for dinner or a BBQ. Get yourself involved with stay-at-home-dad and his wife and see if that changes the dynamic.

There are some other posts that show a couple of issues I have been dealing with and raising, not sure they are insightful to this one or not.

My wife and I have been married for 15 years (together 20) and have 2 kids, 11&7.

Background:
We have recently been through a few issues with the marriage and worked through them, generally we lost touch with each other, which led to lots of tension, dissatisfaction, upset and stress. We have worked this out over a few months and it hasn’t been this good in years, we seem happy, visibly, emotionally and do so much more with each other.

However! My wife seems almost resistant to saying she loves me or showing any sort of emotion.

Now I guess we started like most couples, lovey and showing it in many ways, after 20 years some of that lovey approach has waned and I guess it could be expected to.

(This is not about the physical relationship, that is how it has always been and we are both happy).

Since we have resolved a lot of our issues, I have felt ‘In love’ again and enjoy expressing it to her, saying it, giving her things that show I mean it and most of all making sure I listen and understand her. But throughout all of this she has shown very little emotional contact with me and openly says she won't say it ‘all the time’, she hasn’t said it to my knowledge in years. Part of the concern/issue I have is she also doesn’t really express it in any way either, so its not that I feel it but don’t hear it, anything that occurs is instigated by me.

We have discussed this and she just says she isn’t that sort of person, that she doesn’t need to say it or show me and I should trust her that she does love me. I have actually told her I am unhappy with this part of our relationship, she seems unaltered by that.

I made the mistake of actually suggesting to help the issue (and settle me a bit) she get me something that shows her love that I can keep, before I finished the sentence she went off her head, ranting about trust and how odd I am. It wasn’t very reassuring, and yes I know I am looking for reassurance.

Am I wrong to need to feel love, whether that be said or action?

I have definitely changed my attitude toward ‘Us’, I spent many hours reading posts, reading books on counseling and marriage guidance and made some dramatic changes to my approach to be ‘more about we than me’. With those changes came my expressing love more and so maybe its me expecting too much, but I need it so what do I do.

I can only suggest you focus more on family dynamics, and responsibilities, and put a lot more time into your kids, as you seem to have developed many insecurities, and that tells me that there is something your afraid of.

Whatever it is at the root of all your issues, until you discover it, don't be so needy, and more independent. This isn't about your relationship at this time, but in your actions, and what you focus them on.

Do you have hobbies, and friends, outside of work?

Often we husbands get ignored for the kids, as they require much attention, and have an emotionally needy husband is stressful, and annoying.

I know you have needs too, but there is only so much to go around when you have a few kids in the mix. They ALWAYS come first. Men are expected to endure, and keep it moving, so look around, and see what around the house needs your attention, and stay busy being man, and not be seen as one of the kids.

That's how I handled my own fears, when it seems nobody cared about my needs, and seemed I was always put last. Good clean man fun will change your attitude, perspective, and outlook.

It has been proven... smoking kills and second hand smoke also kills.
It's not that maybe it might, its documented!!
Stay on her about quitting if you love her.

It has been proven....smoking kills and second hand smoke also kills.
It's not that maybe it might, its documented!!!
Stay on her about quitting if you love her.

Did you know that too many potatoes can kill you too? Oh, and salad, the pesticides used to grow them, deadly, after a long time.

The fact is, it's her body, and no one has the right to tell her what to do.

Did you read the other posts? The marriage is not going well, if he pushes her, as you suggested, she may well walk out the door for good.

Bad advice and nothing to do with the actual question. :(

We have recently been through a few issues with the marriage and worked through them, generally we lost touch with each other, which led to lots of tension, dissatisfaction, upset and stress. We have worked this out over a few months and it hasn’t been this good in years, we seem happy, visibly, emotionally and do so much more with each other.

From what you say, your relationship does seem to be improving, but for some reason your insecurity radar has gone into overdrive. Your wife smoking, her relationship with stay-at-home dad, her lack of overt love/emotion it all seems to be getting to you.

It's just a suggestion, but might she be seeking release of her tensions else where (smoking, conversations with stay-at-home dad), because life is too intense with you?

It may be that you are expecting too much, or that you talk about it too much, or that you're hypersensitive about the quality of your relationship because it's been problematic in the past.

Can you back off, and give her (and yourself) some space? I agree with Tal, you do sound emotionally needy and perhaps you would also benefit from putting some energy into physical activities.

If the relationship is improving, then focus on enjoying it rather than analyzing it. Worrying won't change anything - but perhaps if you make a really strong attempt to put your fears on the back burner for a while - take it on a day by day basis - things will improve and you'll feel less anxious.

Firstly, I really appreciate the comments and feedback, it is why I am here.

As my threads were combined, here’s an update on 2 and question.

On the smoking, I’m sorted, have managed to put it way away in my head, not causing any issues or tension.

On the Needy love/emotion, still an issue but have accepted I get what I get and the ‘change’ in expectation me not my wife, so its my problem and I need to accept, so generally not causing any tension.

Then we get the stay home dad!

I generally have been able to accept the companionship angle, it helped me understand to see the comments, makes sense. However, a little issue for me is explained in the example yesterday.

The H1N1 flue and my daughter with CF obviously don’t want to meet! so when my other daughter got a confirmed case of H1N1(or we suspected at the time confirmed later when she had recovered!) we isolated her and took much effort to ensure she didn’t catch it. So yesterday, when I get a phone call from a friend saying the stay home dads daughter had suspected H1N1 I fully expected that the reaction would be to keep them apart. That seemed to be the case, my wife changed plans and disrupted many things it appeared.

Then in the evening I called my wife to ask if I needed to make the kids dinner, they had been at soccer, she is with stay home dad at McDonalds with his kids, and my kids!

This really, really annoyed me, we spent so much effort on keeping my daughter with CF apart, then she, in my opinion because she wanted to be with stay home dad just ignores the facts and goes out.

Its fair to say that the conversation when she finally got back wasn’t a very positive or productive one, I told her calmly but quite obviously what I thought of her putting my daughter with someone who was ill and also told her why I believe she does it, she is obsessed. It went on for a while and she go angry that I reacted in a negative way and that I am ‘not over it’, her and stay home dad that is, I feel pretty crap now, but having slept on it, I still think its true.

Btw, I don’t believe that the CF daughter should be isolated from H1N1, that was my wife’s idea which I supported, we have dealt with CF for years and this is no different than any other flue, but she seems to have changed track when it suits, that’s the issue. I need to be with xxxx I will compromise my position to make that happen.

Now I know I am needy and agree with most comments posted about me, but is this me or unacceptable? Because I am struggling with what appears to me to be more than a want to be with a friend, she seems to need to be with him.

Women feel no attraction toward men seeking their validation.


What is your ethnicity and your wife's ethnicity?


Listen Ramesees... From reading your posts... She is cheating on you. All the signs are there.

All these other stuff are unimportant and just symptoms of her guilt and imbalance in her life. You can confront her, but it will get you nowhere. You have to be a Mature Man about all this.

The Secret Affair is eating at her and it is effecting you and your family and your relationship to each other... this situation will implode on itself, given time.

You have a choice to make... to stay with her at this moment of weakness or to leave and let her self destruct from relationship to relationship.

To Stay is a harder and tougher path.
To Leave is easier for you, but your kids will have consequence that will be pass on to them.

To Stay... you are not going to Change her... you have to Change yourself to becoming a Man, a better Man. NOT someone who gives in to her. This doesn't mean being an A-hole or a Jerk or controlling... IT is complicated for me to explain. It is better for you to read "Ways of a Superior Man" by David Deida.

To Leave... get yourself a Private Investigator and a Lawyer.

This situation is as much as your fault as it is hers.
You are an enabler, unbeknownst to yourself.
When someone is a Hammer, the other will be the Nail.
When someone is a Teacher, the other will be a student.

Either Path, you would still need to read that book I mentioned... because it will help you understand women and thus start your dating life again.


BTW, I was in your shoes two years ago.
I was in a 16 year marriage with two girls.
I was a Nice Guy and a Chump... I gave in to my wife going out without me , etc. I had to change me... It is still a rough path, but my kids will be better for it. It does get better... but it will be painful and has to hit bottom.

Read the Book than learn how to be the Price and find a Passion a Goal in life that is not her. She will eventually find you appealing again. The stay at home Dad is just another diversion (it could've been another guy), the problem is your marriage and all her stuff: smoking, boredom, lost of respect, lost of passion for you... stems from you not being a Man and filling that ROLE as the Man. Read the book on how it is done. It is NOT about being a JERK. Good Luck and God Bless.

Obviously this is an issue for you. Often, when under stress, people will use smoking as a form of "self-medication" to try and alleviate the stress. Of course, the relief is only temporary and once the initial perceived benefit wears off, there's the addiction factor to consider. And nicotine is a highly addictive substance. I wouldn't make her feel guilty for smoking ; after all, it's not like she's doing anything illegal. But I would encourage her to quit and assure her that you'll give her whatever support she needs to accomplish this. There are therapies that can successfully break the addiction when properly administered by a physician. The good news is that she's only been doing it for 6 months so she shouldn't be "hopelessly hooked" already. And I agree that she should not be doing it in the presence of your daughter who has cystic fibrosis.

Although there is some truth to what SVImager says, I don't necessarily agree that your wife is having a full blown affair. An emotional affair, an obsession, a release from being with you, perhaps. But, I do agree that regardless of what it is it is eroding your family situation and yourself confidence.

Taking back your power and your masculinity makes sense. But it's easy for someone else to say. The thing is, how do you actually do it?

I wonder if you would benefit form speaking to a counselor on your own - I can't remember if this is actually already happening in your relationship.

It seems to me that you feel dis-empowered and helpless to change anything at this point in time. Speaking to an objective outsider that can assist you to work on your confidence and reduce your neediness might help.

Hi Gemini... You might be right... it might not be a full blown affair.

BUT, if his instinct is telling him there is an affair... more than likely he is right.

Whether it is a sexual affair or an emotional Affair (no sex, just confiding in each other)... it is the same pain. The Emotion Affair is harder to get over with than the sexual affair part of the cheating, because it is the Lost of Trust and companionship.

My Advice... You are torturing yourself... put an end to the Emotional Relationship. Very Important, Read the Book first so you understand WHY you are doing this and What is the Psychology behind this position. This statement worked for me, "I Love You, I don't Need you or anyone else.. I will make it without you." Google, "CR James" his ebook and material. (I read a lot after finding out my wife's affair).
Having a divorce is not the end of the world... Life goes on and different challenges are ahead. Have her choose you and the family OR this other Man.

Cheating is a falling the edge of a Slippery slope. By confiding with the other man, she is playing on the edge. Every thing is stacked to push her over the edge to be involved with this man. You have to somehow put a stop to it... but she will eventually find something or someone else.

You have to figure out what is the thing or things causing her to go on the edge. If you ask her, she wouldn't know what it is. Or she would tell you the wrong thing because she doesn't really know what is the real problem. The only thing you can do is Fix yourself/change yourself. And Hope things will fall into place.


My situation: Took me Two years to get where I am today... My wife is laughing with me. We hold each other again. During the Affair, she didn't laugh with me... very judgmental with everything I did do... etc. Maybe my solution is only for me, since I am looking through the reflection of my own situation.

I hope the best for you.

As an update:

I am certain this is not a full-blown i.e. physical, may be false hope but I don't think so.

We had our first proper argument for a while the other night!

I went over to friends for a beer, got chatting with him then his wife, his wife is another best friend of my wife's. She started talking, ironically about the H1N1 issue I mentioned before in the post and how she could not believe my wife did that. She then said 'I don't understand why your wife cannot say no to him' well this got me in a tailspin, her best female friend just underlined my feelings.

So I went home festering, she started asking what we had done all evening, I started telling her and we ended up in a full blown regression to old/bad times and argued about the stay home dad situation.

The good news is that we managed to stop, split for half an hour and then meet by the fire pit and talk calmly over why I had got so upset over a comment by her friend. We went at length through an 'emotional affair' what constitutes an emotional affair and where she was with stay home dad relative to this. Without knowing she basically acknowledged it, the potential for an emotional element to their friendship, then the penny dropped and she realized what I was saying rang true. She also in words, again without really knowing, confirmed that she did not need that now we were getting on.

The long and short of it is that an awful lot of my insecurity and concern disappeared the moment I saw she 'got it', now time will tell in her actions whether she really did get it, first signs are good. I don't expect her not to be best friends with stay home dad, in a way I think having such a good friend is a good thing for her, but I think she needs to redefine the boundaries of that friendship to be appropriate for 'Us' and I actually think she believes that too. We will see.

I really and truly hope this will be the beginning of a new chapter in your marriage.

Good luck.

Ramesees... Good Luck.

What country are you from?

There is another post talking about a stay home dad issue I have.

Threads (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/marriage/getting-but-wife-shows-little-love-emotion-am-wrong-410550.html) were merged with this one.

(combined threads but its in there)

As an update, things have been going OK.

We have been working together on the stay home dad issue (generally me working on my acceptance to be honest, she really hasn't changed that much, doesn't feel there is anything she needs to change), it still gets me, the slightest little things makes me annoyed over it, I am very sensitive to the time my wife spends with him, I know that, but I have been controlled, I ensure I don't drink when I feel upset so I don't have a loose tongue etc.

2 nights ago we had quite a deep conversation, somewhat driven by my wife and it was good & positive, not about anything confrontational, just talking about things, our progress and the stay home dad issue. During this she made a very clear statement that the next day she would not be seeing him. Now I can honestly say that if she was seeing him next day, it makes no difference overall because she sees him everyday anyway, so I said I was surprised but she was adamant and positive.

So last night:
As I was in a 'happy' state of mind, I had been out with a friend earlier and had a few drinks, felt very good when my wife picked me up.

Things were pretty good, getting set for a night with each other when one of my daughters starts telling me about her (the daughters) day. It turned out that my wife had seen him twice in the day, picked his kids up and then met at the stables and spent some time there, this was all planned as she admitted. Said she just didn't think about it the previous night.

All sounds trivial I know, but I don't know how to explain the context of the conversation of the night before.

I tried to raise calmly my annoyance, but got a response of 'I didn't see him apart from' I tried to explain 'my issue' and she just wouldn't get it, I got angrier and angrier and my loosened tongue kicked in and then just blurted out some horrible accusations that haven't been said for 6 months. That she cheated, that she was cheating etc. She then got really angry (understandable), I slept in the front room and we are in some trouble I suspect. I have apologized (did it as soon as I said it as I realized) asked her to forgive but she is very angry.

I realized through the sleepless night that for those comments to come out, albeit in beer fueled anger, they must be in my head! Right?

So now I am all confused. My actions have probably set us back a considerable way but I am confused as to why I have this still in my mind. Any ideas what I should do, I feel like crap.

I'm sorry that the relationship with the stay at home dad, hasn't stopped or let up.

Why it keeps going around in your head, is because she is not adequately explaining the relationship to your satisfaction. You have doubts as to her being truthful, and clearly she hides facts that indicate she has something to cover up.

I do not see her reluctance to counselling, and I can only think that she is digging in her heels, and has no intention to modify or stop the relationship she has with this neighbour.

That should tell you something. If she cannot attend counselling (I read your other post and she has said no to that) you are either going to have to go yourself, or accept things as they are.

You are both at opposite ends on this issue, and something has to give.

Have you ever met this guy? His wife? Ever consider having them both over for dinner?

Quick answer is yes, I have met him, partied with him, drank with him and talked with him.

We (He and I) have had a massive (4 hour) argument then discussion on the facts of the relationship (about 5 months ago) that went into some detail about why I was where I was, suspicious etc.

If I assess him (and I am pretty good at reading people, reactions, intents etc). I would say he is pretty self-centered, demanding on my wife BUT does here when things are said.

If I stand back and look at it, I would not be sure that he knows there is still an issue, not defending him, but when we had the 4 hour ‘discussion’ mentioned above he did change for a while and I suspect that where we are now is because he thinks it’s all OK. Just little things I here and see, tell me that the ongoing issues we have (that center), do not get to him. My wife is pretty clear, he’s my best friend and I better not say something that makes it uncomfortable!

Just for amusement’s sake and ironically supports a little of the above statement, here’s last night!

I have decided to go T Total for a while to ensure my underlying feelings are not expressed in any way I don’t want them to be. So last night I took my staff out for dinner, didn’t drink, my wife came with the kids, all went well.

At home, went to bed together (I was surprised due to the bust up previous night), then she gets a text, about 12:15 AM. I just said if your going to text him your not doing it in here, so she got up and went to the kitchen. I started to go to sleep. About 15 minutes later, she came in got into bed and woke me. She asks ‘where is your cell’, so I handed it to her off the bedside table. She then went through my texts! Now I don’t really care, my text life is boring! I asked her what are you doing that for? Turns out she thinks I have texted stay home dad (when she left the bedroom) to tell him to not text so late. Apparently he went silent on text halfway through conversation, that’s about as 180Degrees opposite as it could get, her checking my texts! I just said perhaps his wife has said he can’t text you and went to sleep.

Txting so blatantly (which she knows annoys me), in our bed (which I just won't accept), then elsewhere (getting up to go do it) then accusing me of texting stay home dad and checking my records, I am starting to give up on it, she just seems totally inconsiderate, or doesn’t care, time will tell.

Yes time will tell if you both can define your boundaries of good behavior, and mutual considerations for each others feelings. Good move though, recognizing that a loose tongue causes a lot of problems, and doing something about it.

Right now you have to be patient while she rethinks her actions and attitudes, and makes the right adjustments.

At home, went to bed together (I was surprised due to the bust up previous night), then she gets a text, about 12:15 AM. I just said if your going to text him your not doing it in here, so she got up and went to the kitchen. I started to go to sleep. About 15 minutes later, she came in got into bed and woke me. She asks ‘where is your cell’, so I handed it to her off the bedside table. She then went through my texts! Now I don’t really care, my text life is boring! I asked her what are you doing that for? Turns out she thinks I have texted stay home dad (when she left the bedroom) to tell him to not text so late. Apparently he went silent on text halfway through conversation, that’s about as 180Degrees opposite as it could get, her checking my texts! I just said perhaps his wife has said he can’t text you and went to sleep.

Txting so blatantly (which she knows annoys me), in our bed (which I just won't accept), then elsewhere (getting up to go do it) then accusing me of texting stay home dad and checking my records, I am starting to give up on it, she just seems totally inconsiderate, or doesn’t care, time will tell.

The phones should be in the kitchen for a start, not the bedroom. Why do you need to have them in the bedroom with you?

Anyway, sounds as if his wife is cracking the $hits now.

I do think she is totally inconsiderate, but your reaction of sleepy indifference was well done.

Had to spread the rep Gemini, but I am beginning to think that all parties concerned deserve each other.

Nobody is willing to give an inch, the bad behaviour continues, cell phone texts continue, suspicions all the way around, crossing of boundaries, disrespect, childish reactions... It all sounds like Desperate Houswives to me.

Nobody willing to change thinking or behaviour. It's all really childish and frustrating that four adults cannot behave better.

Jake,
I read a lot of the posts on here and your responses, so respect.

I agree it’s like a soap opera, however, not sure what I have not done here:

Accepted smoking (and yes I had to decide to accept it even though I don’t like it).
Accepted a relationship with another man that annoys and upsets me and put things in place to allow me to deal with it.
Stopped all suspicious behavior on my part, I do nothing now.
Stopped asking questions in a probing and accusational way.
Stopped looking for reassurance and ‘love’ for my insecurity.
Decided to stop drinking to prevent any preventable arguments.
Spent 6 months trying to get a message over that WE matter.
Not sure what else I could/should have done, go for it if you have ideas.

And Gemini, Peyton place, just had to wiki it to see what you are referencing!

It is not a matter of what you have done so much, as it is a situation that still has not resolved itself.

* You accepted smoking- you had no choice, smoking is her call.

* Accepted a relationship with another man. What have you done to accept it, just given up?

* Stopping all suspicious behaviour on your part is not the same thing as asking obvious questions, such as drinks in the backyard, late night dog walks to meet up with him, late night texts...

* You have stopped asking questions in a probing and accusational way you say, so does that mean you are asking questions in a different way, or have you given up until the next time it blows up.

* You should not have to look for reassurance and love, it should be right there, frequently, with no doubt about it. You have good reason to be insecure.

* Arguing while under the influence is never a good idea.

* Six months to get a message across to your wife that your marriage is important (if I'm reading that right), and you are still not getting through.

Accepting it is entirely up to you, and how you handle it, justify it, and explain it away, is entirely up to you also. All you will get from me is an opinion.

For what its worth, in my opinion, you have given up. I don't see you going to counselling, or both of you going to counselling, or your wife trying to curb her attachment to the neighbourhood guy. So be it.

If you have a reached this point, and are comfortable with it, more power to you.

I know I would not have tolerated any of her behaviour more than once.

I don't know if you've given up inasmuch as you've got a form Stockholm Syndrome and that you've become numbed to the goings on. You do seem to have reluctantly accepted the status quo and your wife is the one advantaged by this numb acceptance.

However, you're still empty and unhappy - that's why with a little help from a few beers the frustrated words tumbled out of your mouth.

You're at an impasse really - your wife won't give up stay-at-home-dad and you're afraid to assert yourself in case it all goes pear shaped.

I think you have every right to be annoyed and angry. Sure, there are better ways to express it than a drunken rave, but essentially you're being emasculated by your wife and stay-at-home-dad, and you know it.

But, it could be that stay-at-home-dad's wife is less accepting than you are. (I have to ask - WHY would stay-at-home-dad text your wife at 12:15 in the morning - what couldn't wait until breakfast? ) Sometimes change comes from unexpected quarters.

Having said all that - it does seem as if you are not your wife's priority. She has spent a lot of time defending her attachment to him. It is up to you, as Jake says, to decide if you can live with this and be comfortable with the status quo.

I don't think that you are out of line by questioning your wife's friendship with the married male. I may be wrong, but I don't get the impression that she has been cheating with him... if she were, I think a little more information would be hidden from you, and that just doesn't seem to be the case (I may be wrong, I just don't get the feeling she is... at least physically).

Anyhow... I really loved Jake's response. What I'd like you to examine for yourself is the behaviour's you can change and the ones you have no control over. And I commend you over excepting those behaviours you cannot change (ie: her smoking, her 'friendships'). But can I ask you if you're really doing all you can do to become closer to your wife? Can you give her the honest time and effort and genuity of interest in her that she may be seeking in her married friend? I'm not trying to insult you, but this is the area that hit a chord with me. Married women with children can be LONELY. Even if you think you are right there, she may need the reassurance that she can trust you again to share her inner-most feelings without being judged. To intrinsically know that you are her #1 best friend and that you are behind her all the way (this is where the non-judgemental smoking partner comes into play... seriously... and your non-judgemental opinion about her best friend, whether male or female - as a side, I think her best friend has come to be a matter of greater convenience than anything else... again, that's just my thoughts over what I've previously read. I mean, a lover of your wife would never spend hours debating a relationship with your wife... he run away almost immediately... just my intuition).

Overall, I think that you are very sensitive in noticing the things that are important to your wife in her life. Honestly, that's a very good thing. But I think you need to inject yourself into her life more, so that she trusts, and confides in you more (especially more than the friend). I wish you so well.

Its been quite a while since I posted last:
Htttp://www.askmehelpdesk.com/marriage/getting-but-wife-shows-little-love-emotion-am-wrong-410550.html

Background, together 20 years, married 15, 2 kids 12 & 8. Has a really bad period early in 2009 and have been working at the relationship since (in the post above).

Things seemed to be progressively improve, the odd bump in the road would come along, the odd history related argument. I have though always struggled with the amount of time my wife continues to invest in her male friend, but largely we managed around this.

I really fell back in love my wife through lot of effort and acceptance as to whom we both are. Just recently though the continued lack of engagement, emotion, need and effort from my wife towards me has become more of an issue, I feel like I work hard, come home at night, work hard on making 'us' work, then have no relationship to speak of.

So over the last week, we have had calm discussions where I asked her to be honest and consider how she feels about 'us', that has now manifested itself in her asking for space and time away from me and she asked me to leave for a while. I did that yesterday.

We met this morning and in her words told me she has been trying to pretend for the last year that she loves me and things are OK and that she is not sure she can ever love me again, devastated. She feels very damaged due to the 2009 events and described herself as feeling cold and distant from me in her heart.

I actually do understand much of what she says and what makes her feel this way, it makes total sense of my frustrations of lack of emotion, engagement and 'love' I feel.

The question is, what to do know. She says she needs time to work her own feelings out, without me, something I am giving her, 2nd night in a motel 6 for me. I just don't see how and when she will get there and am quite frankly of the belief she really has her mind set that she cannot be 'fixed' (her words).

I love her more now than ever before and it was so hard to hear, I don't love you as a wife, I just don't know, do I just give her all the time she asks for, do I try to influence it, I genuinely want her to decide she wants to be with me on her own, not because I pressure it, but am very worried where this ends up.

I have asked for over a year for us get marriage guidance/counseling and she will not go, I asked her again this week after this, NO.

Ok so some history, (I have posted in the past some issues, last time I did it got merged couldn't find it again, so not sure if this can stay as a new thread, mods?)

Some background:
- Married 15 years, together 20, 2 kids.
- Moved to a different country 2 years ago.
- Grown apart over time, including prior to moving country.
- Wife became 'best friends' with a male neighbor, caused lots of issues.

I recognized that we had problems for a while and about 18 months ago started to attempt to work things out.

For about a year now, I have been working on 'Us' believing (although looking now I can see not) that my wife was doing the same.

About 2 months ago, everything came to a head, I was away for a week, got back and my wife was cold, distant and not they're for me. So I raised with her and asked in as non confrontational way as I could, does she want to be with me. She finally after all this time said she doesn't know.

So I left the house for a few days, at her request, then we talked for the first time in years, where she actually opened up, in summary she said:
- I love you, but am not sure I am in love with you.
- I have been pretending for the last year.
- I can see you have been trying so hard, but I have not.
- I feel cold towards you

So over the last couple of months we have been through some difficult times.
- She decided she wanted to make it work.
- She has put the 'best friend' friendship where it needs to be, she actually admitted she knows it was wrong and affecting us.
- She is clearly trying in certain areas.

BUT, she still is distant to me, doesn't ever engage in conversation on 'serious' topics and will not discuss our progress at all. Just says you are always going on about things. No physical contact in 2 months (the one thing we did have before was a relatively healthy sex life), no more, she pushes me away even from just kisses.

When I ask and she does open up a bit, she says she needs time to work her own mind out about what she feels for me.

I can see she is trying, I know she has great great difficulty dealing with issues, her personality type is to ignore the issues, they will go away. She says she wants to make it work, she wants to 'be in love with me'.

So my question (eventually). I am getting very frustrated and I want to talk with her about things, she will not and as a result I have had mini blow ups (nothing more than rants). She now says these are a source of issue for her. So we move forward, I get frustrated with lack of progress(and no sex to be honest) and then that is stated as a reason for not moving forward?

What do I do, I am trying to ignore it, not raise it, be normal etc, but I cannot as it is eating me up, we seem so close to being sorted, but so far away.

I recently broke up with my Fiancé, we were together for 6 years, engaged for 1.5. I felt the same things that your wife says she feels. (love, but not In love, "pretending", not trying). It has been a month, and we both agree that the split was the right decision. While we could have given it everything and stayed together, sometimes the best thing to do is call it what it is. People grow apart. We had a clean separation, have remained friends, and still have each other to talk to if needed, while we live our own separate lives. I think that it was better we realized this before we went too far, and its best to let yourself move on, rather than stress your life away trying to fix something that's too far gone. In my opinion, from what you have told us, your wife has already let you go. You shouldn't hate her for it, as I can promise you that we cannot control what we feel. She may want to love you, but emotions are not something that we choose. I know that this is not what you want to hear, but maybe she is only still with you because although she is not "in love" with you, she still "loves" you enough not to break your heart, and she is willing to live a life that she doesn't want (pretending) in order to make you happy. This sacrifice could be what is causing the "coldness" she exhibits, because she knows that you know she isn't happy, and you let her live that way. I hope this helps you to see things in a new light, and do what you need to do to work it out or to let it go.
Good luck my friend,
Jeff

Is couples counseling a possibility? This would be good for both of you whether you decide to stay together or end up separating.

Okay so I looked back at your other post---did you try any of the suggestions? Have you tried to get any type of counseling? If she didn't want to go have you tried to get some on your own?

Instead of telling us how frustrated you are, why not tell us what you have tried to accomplish since your last post. That way we aren't repeating ourselves.

In regards to the "No Sex" situtuation, that is the result of a woman not even able to fake it. Obviously her feelings are not involved at ALL and there for she cannot bring herself to fake it. I am not trying to be harsh here, but you need to understand that if it has gotten to this point, why are you still trying to sail this ship that SANK awhile back.

When are you going to decide enough is enough?

Have been though rationalizing growing apart and tried to discuss this, said if this is the case then we should move on, she sticks to the position that she wants things to work. Maybe she cannot comprehend dealing with the outcome of that choice

No chance of counseling, straight out refuses, have suggested now for years in many ways.

Mmm, answerme_tender, from previous suggestions:
Yes I have had some individual counseling that has helped me is some ways, but hasn't answered my current questions, hence the latest posts.

Ok, accomplishments since previous posts:
- Stood up to the stay home dad situation, as I wasn't happy with it, to coin my friend's phrase, I took my balls back out of the jar. This has benefited us.
- I looked at myself and who I was towards my wife, to ensure I fill gaps, I am more available, understanding, engaged etc.
- Finally got my wife to open up, yes I stood up even though I feared it all going 'pear shaped', and it did obviously.

Sailing a ship that SANK, maybe I am. However, there have been signs of effort, signs of improvements in certain areas, that give me hope. I don't know when the light went out for my wife, but it probably took a long while for that to happen. I continue sailing, for a while yet, in the hope that time will help.

I continue for a couple of reasons,
1) Me!
2) Our children
3) My wife. It may not be my place, my responsibility, my concern or ultimately my business if she decides that. But I do not feel she is thinking straight, that may be considered as arrogant that I would know better than her, maybe it is and I am wrong, but I know her better than anyone and she isn't thinking straight, I now know that the stay home dad was toxic and poisoned her views on many things, her thinking feels like someone's else's if you can understand that.

I can see all the points and its hard to articulate when so much has happened. My counsel and her best female friend are telling me, chill, hold tight, it will work out, just don't keep pushing, raising things etc.

So any ideas how to stem frustrations that have been building for 18 months.

No chance of counseling, straight out refuses, have suggested now for years in many ways.
Then YOU go! Continue to go -- get more done and get the current stuff dealt with.

You sound like a really nice guy, but I am afraid that by pushing your wife to deal with her coldness everyday is pushing her away. Can you try instead to focus on you and your kids. When she is left alone and sees how full you can make your life without her, maybe she will choose to be a part of that picture. Maybe she won't, but hopefully you will be okay with her letting go. It seems like you have been trying for a long time and must be feeling a lot of resentment. You can't change your wife's temperament. All you can do is work on yourself and nurturing relationships with others, especially your children.

Ramesees,

Honestly, I would continue working on what you can improve, and that is just YOU. Unfortuantely you have no control over your wife, and no matter how hard you work to fix everything for her, you still cannot help HER. Each of you only have control of your own eventually happiness in life. Yes, both of you can strive for the same goal, but if you BOTH don't put in the same amount of effort, then the it still comes down to just one doing all the work to improve, and the other standing on side lines looking in. When someone in just standing and looking in, when they put up their hand all they are going to feel is a cold window unless they make the choice to actually open the door walk in and participate.

Also from just another point of view, have you considered that your wife is going through depression. She made a choice to stay with the marriage, and yes she said wanted to work it out, but she is still going through her own personal loss and mourning that loss. I know you might not want to hear this, but that could be why she doesn't want you touching her or wanting to do anything to improve the issues of the marriage. If that be the case, I don't know how long it will be when she will feel like moving on with the marriage. But everyone handles loss differently.

I am impressed on the effort you are tryingt to put forth to make things work out for you marriage. But I agree, you need to continue counseling for yourself, and tell the counselor what is going on at home, get suggestions on how to proceed. Your wife's friends are a good comfort source, but still go to counselor. Good luck

Comes a time in this relationship you need to stop trying to fix things, and work on yourself. That also gives your wife the space to work on herself. You are frustrated that your fixes have not helped you, and have actually created more problems than they have solved. She has issues for sure, but your solutions have not worked for her and you either have they?

Step back for a while and let those frustrations go by focusing entirely on your kids and NOT the marriage. Sorry for merging all your posts together here, but maybe you should re read them and see where your frustrations are really coming from and that is a lack of confidence in your wife that has you trying to fix HER, and made worse by the how you go about it. Sharing your fears and frustrations with your friends is a lousy idea, and acting on those fears and frustrations has done nothing bu build a rather high wall between you.

A very fresh start is what's needed, and that requires a lot of space between the two of you. I do mean a lot. That's the only way as I see it that the emotional dust that you both have kicked up over the last year and a half will ever settle enough for you both to breathe and decide what you want as individuals, and later as a couple.

That's why my suggestion to focus only on the kids, and there issues is what's important, and should be the only priority at this time. Let the rest of the crap you have been going through completely alone, and start from scratch and build around your kids, and being great parents. None of this "we are great parents, blah blah" stuff either. The whole point is take a nice long break from yourselves, and your problems, and come back with fresh eyes, and attitudes, so you can actually resolve your issues to the benefit of you both, and not just be stuck in positions that benefit one, and not the other.

You may even decide that a divorce is the best way to go, because you have grown so far apart it would be a waste of time to continue together. You still have to work together for your kids though, so do that and leave the relationship/marriage alone for a while so you both can cool off, and stop spinning your wheels, and maybe miss each other enough to be willing to do what's right.

You can't do that, and gain a new, and clearer perspective on things when all you have been doing for so long is overwhelming each other with the same old recycled crap. That's the pattern that emerges when your posts are merged. Read it yourself if you don't believe me, and start from the beginning.

Ok, so I did what was suggested and re read the posts, I also re read my diary (I started keeping a diary a while ago(18 months) to keep track on what was happening. The result, particularly in reading the diary was a little shock, 12 months ago the statements, frustrations, concerns and general feelings I wrote in my diary fit today! So there is progress! And just to compliment things, timing is everything and its ironic that my wife started to txt, meet and talk to the stay home dad last week, so it really did feel like 12 months ago, all 'innocent'.

I hear the advice on stepping back and leaving the relationship issues aside and I guess I have made a decision, until after the holidays are done and the new year is here, I am going to just get on with enjoying my kids and my life as much as we can. My wife can come along (and I hope she does) and enjoy and be part of the family (and my wife) or not. If she does, great, if she doesn't then we can deal with the way forward in the new year and the way forward cannot be more of the same.

The only thing I will raise issue on in the mean time is anything on stay home dad, that line is drawn and right or wrong I am not compromising (reading my diary, I must have been insane, or a saint not to have dealt with him a long time ago).

Wow, you are still in the situation. At least it is improving for you.

So, I believe your next step is to increase your attractiveness.
Simple things like, having a goal. You can go on without her. Not being needy.
Having conversations with her, in which you don't provide any answers, just confirm her feelings.
Good luck.