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fblankinship
Oct 27, 2009, 04:39 PM
I know all this is wordy but would appreciate someone in the know looking it over. We have a real stickler electrical inspector and want everything to be code. Thanks in advance.

I wired my barn without a permit and now want to get a permit. I thought I would explain how I wired it and ask you guys to check it over.
1. I ran the power from a main service panel located outside, it is a 200 amp feed through panel that also supplies my house. The house is also a 200 amp panel with a 100 amp fuse that feeds the internal house subpanel.
2. The run from the main panel to the barn is about 30 feet. I installed a 100 amp circuit breaker to feed the barn internal subpanel. I used #2 aluminum 4 wire (2hots, neutral and a insulated ground). I installed the wiring in a 11/4 schedule 40 electrical pvc (I used schedule 80 for the exposed portion with expansion fittings). The conduit is buried 18 inches (the ditch is still uncovered, I plan on covering the ditch halfway then putting a yellow danger tape down then completing the fill). I connected all this to a 100 amp subpanel located inside the barn. I grounded the subpanel with a #4 bare copper wire (I know it's large for the ground but I had the wire) I used 2 ground rods spaced about 61/2 feet apart. I did not bond the ground inside the panel.

Electrical Circuits
1. I used MC cable so the mice wouldn't eat the romex, all circuits are 20 amp with #12 copper wire (2 wire with a ground). I used steel 4x4 deep boxes for all recepticles, I grounded the steel boxes with ground wire clips hooked to all incomming ground wires. I used 3/8 inch steel clamps to attach the mc cable. I clamped the mc cable 6 inches from all the boxes and then at lease within 4 feet thereafter. All switches and GFI's are rated at 20 amp. The outside lights and GFI's are all in outside weather proof boxes, the GFI's also have the wet location covers. I have a total of 5 20 amp circuits in this 100 amp panel. I would like to hook up a 50 amp 220 circuit for my welder (after I get it inspected).
2. I ran one circuit for part of the lighting. The lighting circuit operates 4 florodex 85 watt lights on the inside (barn is 24x40 about 960sf) an outside light (2 ea 250 watt flood light) and a Halogen 500 watt light with motion control located over the double door. The inside lights and the 2 other lights I talked about are switched inside a 3 gang box located at the side door. The inside light is controlled with a 3 cay switch, the other 3 way is located at the back door (ran 3wire #12 with ground). The back door has a 2 gang box the other switch controls another outside light located by the back door ( I powered this other outside light from another 20 amp circuitis ( so I have 2 different power circuits in this 2 gang box).
3. The separate 20 amp circuit that I used for the outside light I talked about above also powers 1 outside gfi located at the rear of the building and 4 other duplex recepticles. This circuit has a total of 5 recepticles and 1 500 amp outside light circuit.
4. I have another 20 amp circuit that runs to a 2 gang box with 2 duplex 20 amp recepticles, I wanted a separate circuit for my freezer.
5. I have another 20 amp circuit that connects 4 inside duplex recepticles and one outside GFI (located on the side of the house).
6 I have another circuit that connects to 3 duplex recepticles and one outside GFI (located on the opposite side of the barn)

Any advice is appreciated Also, do I need to submit a wiring diagram when I fill out the permit?

ballengerb1
Oct 27, 2009, 04:57 PM
I have another approach for you, just apply to get a permit and see what the inspector says is wrong and right. No matter what we say its up to him, be nice.

hkstroud
Oct 27, 2009, 05:02 PM
I could be wrong but I believe all of the outlets have to be GFI protected. Although, after the inspector left I would take the GFI for the freezer out. Depend on local authority you may or may not have to submit a wiring diagram but I doubt it.

Tev
Oct 28, 2009, 04:18 PM
What type of wire did you run to feed your subpanel?
Is it rated for wet conditions?

#2 aluminum wire is undersized for this application. You really need 3 #1 aluminum THWN with a #6 aluminum ground. Unfortunately that exceeds the fill allowance of 1 1/4 schedule 80 PVC. Personally, I'd drop down to a 90 amp breaker and call it a day. Yes, you'll still be fine once you install the welder.

I assume the floor is at or below grade since it is a barn and it's an accessory building so all receptacles except the freezer must be protected by a GFCI device.

The freezer receptacle should be swapped out to a single receptacle (not a duplex) to meet the letter of the code exception.

Did you install 1/16" steel plates where your MC is closer than 1 1/4" from the surface of a stud when passing through them?
Center the MC when going up the side of a stud to avoid issues there.

Everything else looks to be fine.

fblankinship
Oct 29, 2009, 07:06 AM
I was using the 2002 NEC9 ( I know it's out dated so could be wrong) for the wire size, also the wire chart at home depot indicated #2 AL was fine. Could you tell me where you came up with #1?

Thanks

donf
Oct 29, 2009, 10:20 AM
Questions:

NEC 110.14 (C) tells us that for Amperage's of 100 Amps or less we are to use the 60 (C) amperage ratings. UNLESS The equipment (in this case the main panel and the sub panel) are listed for the 75(C) connections.

We now also know that since this is a main panel to sub panel feed we must use the ampacity rating in table 310.16. Per TK, Table 310.15 is for main panel feeds only.

Are we to just assume that the poster is using the correct equipment? Or will all currently listed equipment meet the requirements of the 75 (C) standard?

If the poster does not have panels that are listed for 75 (C) then he cannot use the THWN #1 wires w/ a #6 Al. ground. He would be restricted to the 60 (C) listing and would need to use #1/0 TW or UF with a #6 Al ground.

This would require him using larger conduit to carry the conductors from the main panel to the subpanel. Also, since we do not know the type of subpanel he's intending on using, we do not know whether to plan for a six switch sub panel, a main lug panel style with a Main cut-off switch or a main panel style with a master breaker.


Correct or am I off the beaten path yet again?

tkrussell
Oct 29, 2009, 10:37 AM
The wire size Tev gave you for a 100 amp feeder, being #1 aluminum, comes from Table 310.16 in the NEC 2008.

75 Deg C column lists #2 at 90 amps, and #1 at 100 amps.

Disregard any other column, as 5 Deg C is the column for your application, long story, take my word for it.

This is the same as the 2002 edition, never changed.

The chart you see in HD is probably wire size for feeding a residential service, from table 310.15 (B) 6.

This table is widely used incorrectly, as it is ONLY for feeding the main service. After the main service, Table 310.16 must be used.

If this barn is for livestock, then you should review Article 547 of the NEC. It will give you the specific areas that will require GFI outlets. Not all areas will require GFI protection.

If this is not for livestock, and only for storage, I do not see why any of the interior receptacles need GFI protection. I will leave this open for discussion, if someone can show me where a storage barn needs GFI outlets.

Good idea, but in my opinion, not required.

tkrussell
Oct 29, 2009, 10:40 AM
Don, generally speaking:

All standard equipment is rated 75 Deg C.

60 Deg is rare, but on smaller equipment and devices.

90 Deg C is special order.

ohb0b
Oct 31, 2009, 02:04 AM
If this is a livestock barn, are there any equipotential plane considerations? (Article 547.10)

Are there any water or gas pipes in the barn that need to be bonded?

fblankinship
Oct 31, 2009, 08:48 AM
It's not a livestock barn. It's more of a garage with a concrete floor. I guess I call it my barn it's a pole building and it looks like a barn. No other utilities (water gas) I may put gas heat in someday. I also called my panel inside the barn a subpanel, I think it's a main since I have qa main disconnect breaker in the panel.
Frank

tkrussell
Oct 31, 2009, 12:40 PM
Since the newpanel is supplied by the "main service panel located outside", the new panel is not a Main panel, and needs to have the neutral and equipment ground must be separated at the new panel using the 4 wire feed you mentioned.

Now that is called a "garage" all 120 volt receptalces need GFI protection.