Lots of ink and hot air expended over the role of a third party candidate and the Republican establishment. Revolutions are never easy, and are places for the bravest of the brave. The Republican establishment certainly is not brave.

"A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency, or simply to swell its numbers." Ronaldus Maximus

1975 CPAC Speech by Governor Ronald Reagan (R-CA) (http://www.conservative.org/pressroom/reagan/reagan1975.asp)

Btw: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2009/house/ny/new_york_23rd_district_special_election-1119.html

Did you see Hoffman needs volunteers because ACORN is mobilizing to get the Dem vote out ?

Check out other comments about this important race on Steve's OP .
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/another-one-under-bus-409012.html

Update ultra-liberal Republican candidate Dede Scozzafava has suspended her campaign in New York's 23rd Congressional race and is encouraging supporters to embrace Conservative Party nominee Doug Hoffman.
Michael Steele ,late to the game ,has also thrown the endorsement of the RNC to Hoffman.
I'll call this a victory for the tea parties when Hoffman wins Tuesday .

Interesting article about the republicans:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/01/opinion/01rich.html?_r=1

"The battle for upstate New York confirms just how swiftly the right has devolved into a wacky, paranoid cult that is as eager to eat its own as it is to destroy Obama. The movement's undisputed leaders, Palin and Beck, neither of whom have what Palin once called the “actual responsibilities” of public office, would gladly see the Republican Party die on the cross of right-wing ideological purity. Over the short term, at least, their wish could come true. ... Last week it turned out that Hoffman's prime attribute to the radical right — as a take-no-prisoners fiscal conservative — was bogus. In fact he's on the finance committee of a hospital that happily helped itself to a $479,000 federal earmark. Then again, without the federal government largess that the tea party crowd so deplores, New York's 23rd would be a Siberia of joblessness. The biggest local employer is the pork-dependent military base, Fort Drum. "

Interesting article about the republicans:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/01/opinion/01rich.html?_r=1

NK, that's not an article, it's an opinion column hit job by a "wacky, paranoid" leftist named Frank Rich. What's interesting is for a guy who immediately dismisses any conservative source that you would cite a liberal nut job like Rich as some sort of authority on Republicans. Rich's response says more about the left than it does about the right. Just as Obama threw Deeds under the bus in VA 2 weeks before the election and then has gone all out to help Corzine in NJ, Rich's reaction means they're spooked. The Obamanation is in trouble so they'll be going all out in their attacks since they have no real solutions.

I guess we'll just see how it all plays out then. You go back to rwading that wonderful Michelle Malkin and then going to church and professing your love for your fellow man.

I guess we'll just see how it all plays out then. You go back to rwading that wonderful Michelle Malkin and then going to church and professing your love for your fellow man.

Nothing like a good personal attack to start the day.

Nothing like a good personal attack to start the day.
Sorry, wasn't personal, was meant meant for all hypocritical republicans who spread fear, hatred and divisiveness.

Sorry, wasn't personal, was meant meant for all hypocritical republicans who spread fear, hatred and divisiveness.

Oh that makes it much better. :rolleyes:

Citing Frank Rich calling us "a wacky, paranoid cult that is as eager to eat its own as it is to destroy Obama" while complaining of "republicans who spread fear, hatred and divisiveness" = hypocrisy.

Sorry, wasn't personal, was meant meant for all hypocritical republicans who spread fear, hatred and divisiveness.

Is this an attempt to advance the conversation? There are no liberals/progressives that spread fear, hatred and divisiveness? Isn't that what liberals do, all of the time?

Hello George:

Talking about the Dems throwing people under the bus... But, that just what you guys did to Scozzafava. Dude!

It seems that you, the Wolverine, and the limp one, think there's a huge majority of voters to the RIGHT of where the Republican party is.

I don't. I think there's oblivion...

excon

It seems that you, the Wolverine, and the limp one, think there's a huge majority of voters to the RIGHT of where the Republican party is.

I don't. I think there's oblivion...

excon

Seems to me there are a great number of folks who really care about freedom and liberty, rather than big government security. Perhaps there is hope for the people of New York state, after all.

Seems to me there are a great number of folks who really care about freedom and liberty, rather than big government security. Perhaps there is hope for the people of New York state, afterall.Hello George:

Wow! I could have said that first sentence about the Patriot Act. In fact, I'll bet I did.

But, in terms of New York, let's not get carried away. The ONLY shot the Democrat had is if the Right and the Further Right kept it's battle up. But, since you discarded the Republican, and embraced the third party candidate, you ensured his win...

This is a district who had its last Democrat represent it TWO century's ago.

excon

But, in terms of New York, let's not get carried away. The ONLY shot the Democrat had is if the Right and the Further Right kept it's battle up. But, since you discarded the Republican, and embraced the third party candidate, you ensured his win...

excon

Three observations:
1) what's wrong with democracy? The Republican candidate was not approved by the voters, but by the party machine. And unlike Obama tactics, she was not removed by intra party hacks.

2) do we now know more about who is leading the Repbublican Party? Perhaps the Party should follow the will of the people.

3) this is what Pelosi calls 'astroturf'; bwe he he

Talking about the Dems throwing people under the bus.... But, that just what you guys did to Scozzafava. Dude!

Just one problem ex, she was never on my bus.

And by the way, it's not looking so good for Corzine in NJ (http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2009/11/christie-leads.html) in spite of Obama pulling out all the stops including a virtual takeover of Corzine's campaign.

Oh and another thing, Scozzafava is backing the Democrat now... while her campaign manager is backing Hoffman (http://hotlineoncall.nationaljournal.com/archives/2009/11/scozzafava_mana.php). Scozzafava finally boarded the bus she should have taken in the first place.

That Scozzafava told her followers that they should vote for the Democrat candidate is telling about where her loyalties lie.

Trust me ;the Republican party of NY is a weak entity that rarely delivers candidates of substance. The NY 23rd has for so long been serfs dependent on the largess of the state ;that people like Scozzafava don't know any better way. The conservative revolution in the party is exactly what the NY Repubulican party needs. Only then will the people of NY be offered a real choice.

Hello tom:

This isn't really about NY. It just a precursor of how the Republicans are going to act nationwide. They're moving to the right hoping to find a LOT of people there just waiting for them to catch up...

I actually, think you're going to find oblivion out there. I asked Elliot which party these right wing masses are members of NOW. He didn't seem to know.

excon

Yes it is because the NY 23rd is an example of the overall problem with the Republican party.

Why was John McCain the standard bearer in 2008 ? Because he was the next in line. There were better candidates than him but he had seniority and was one of the pale shades of pastels .

Why was Scozzafava selected by the party bosses in a smoke filled room ? Because it was her reward for being a party hack. It did not matter that she was more radically liberal than her Democrat opponent . She was next in line according to the Republican version of Tamney Hall. The party bosses are entrenched and needs to be uprooted .

Hello tom:

This isn't really about NY. It just a precursor of how the Republicans are gonna act nationwide. They're moving to the right hoping to find a LOT of people there just waiting for them to catch up....

I actually, think you're going to find oblivion out there. I asked Elliot which party these right wing masses are members of NOW. He didn't seem to know.

excon

So let me get this straight.

You already think that Hoffman is going to win because of this shift to the right. You said so here:

"But, since you discarded the Republican, and embraced the third party candidate, you ensured his win..."

And this is taking place in NY, one of the most liberal states in the union.

But you think that the REST of the country is somewhere to the left or moderate.

You are essentially saying that a rightward shift, which is showing success in liberal NY is going to fail in the rest of the country, which is ALREADY to the right of NY.

Does this stance make any sense to anyone besides excon?

As to where these Conservatives are right now... they're waiting for the rest of the party to move to the right and join them. They're out there... always have been. They are the ones who voted for Bush twice despite the loud discontent of so much of the country. They are the ones who supported the Iraq surge, despite the anti-war position of so much of the country. They are the ones showing up in the poll I posted in the other thread. They show up when they're needed.

Elliot

...
As to where these Conservatives are right now... they're waiting for the rest of the party to move to the right and join them. They're out there... always have been....

Elliot

A coalition of seniors (that's right, those on Medicare) and conservatives could constitute a political tsunami in 2010 and 2012. Ha ha ha! The Demorcratic Party throwing seniors under the bus, indeed!

Elliot, it's the same kind of logic that would lead to Frank Rich to claim the rejection of one RINO in NY-23 is tantamount to a Stalinist purge.

"Fearful that the party had almost no chance of winning the Nov. 3 New York special election after Republican nominee Dede Scozzafava abruptly announced Saturday that she was dropping out, high-ranking national Democrats immediately began working to secure her endorsement of Democrat Bill Owens, POLITICO has learned.

"On Sunday afternoon, their vigorous efforts paid off as Scozzafava bucked her own party and issued a statement supporting Owens over Conservative Party nominee Doug Hoffman, a coup for Democrats, who recognized that their best remaining chance of winning the Republican-leaning seat on Tuesday was to swing disaffected Scozzafava supporters their way. By Sunday night, Scozzafava had taped her endorsement and it was being delivered via robo-call into targeted district households."
Winning Dede Scozzafava: How Democrats got her nod - Jonathan Martin and Charles Mahtesian - POLITICO.com (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29013.html)

Need any further proof that the Democrat and northeastern Republican party are joined at the hip? Any word whether Arlen Specter is campaigning for the Democrat?

So let me get this straight.

You already think that Hoffman is going to win because of this shift to the right. You said so here:

"But, since you discarded the Republican, and embraced the third party candidate, you ensured his win..."

And this is taking place in NY, one of the most liberal states in the union.

But you think that the REST of the country is somewhere to the left or moderate.

You are essentially saying that a rightward shift, which is showing success in liberal NY is going to fail in the rest of the country, which is ALREADY to the right of NY.

Does this stance make any sense to anyone besides excon?

As to where these Conservatives are right now... they're waiting for the rest of the party to move to the right and join them. They're out there... always have been. They are the ones who voted for Bush twice despite the loud discontent of so much of the country. They are the ones who supported the Iraq surge, despite the anti-war position of so much of the country. They are the ones showing up in the poll I posted in the other thread. They show up when they're needed.

Elliot


Also see Lamont vs Lieberman in Conn. Compared to Lamont, Joe is conservative, and he won.


G&P

The AP is already pre-spinning the election results (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091102/ap_on_el_ge/us_election_rdp) for tomorrow...

Any word whether Arlen Specter is campaigning for the Democrat?
Oh he's running all right ;for a 6th term.He faces both a liberal challenge in the Democrat primaries by Democratic Congressman Joe Sestak ,and may face Republican Pat Toomey (Club for Growth) in the 2010 general election if he survives the primary.
Specter's approval rating is at 23%.

The Republican leadership... late to recognizing reality have taken the opportunity of the Scozzafava endorsement of Democrat Owens to give their public mea culpas.

Boehner regrets Scozzafava support - Jake Sherman - POLITICO.com (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29039.html)

I have to ask Minority Leader Boehner if this is what he considers leadership ? You wonder why the Republicans are in trouble ? It's not the conservatives ;it's the wishy washy leadership that would accept and support a candidate that was so radically left as to garner the support of the Daily Kossack's Markos Moulitsas .Instead of leading the party they are now jumping on a bandwagon that began rolling months ago.

"In what could be a nightmare scenario for Republican Party officials, conservative activists are gearing up to challenge leading GOP candidates in more than a dozen key House and Senate races in 2010."
Uncivil War: Conservatives to challenge a dozen GOP candidates - Charles Mahtesian and Alex Isenstadt - POLITICO.com (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29057.html)
Actually, there is no 'nightmare'; this may characterize the perspective of some on the inside. Every roach and rodent perceives fumigation as some kind of nightmare. Some of these bozos are incumbants, but they do not have tenure.

"In what could be a nightmare scenario for Republican Party officials, conservative activists are gearing up to challenge leading GOP candidates in more than a dozen key House and Senate races in 2010."Hello George:

It WAS a nightmare last night, but not for who you thought it would be. It appears that consuming yourselves is NOT a good idea.

excon

Hello George:

It WAS a nightmare last night, but not for who you thought it would be. It appears that consuming yourselves is NOT a good idea.

Explain, what was the nightmare?

Explain, what was the nightmare?Hello Steve:

You lost a solidly Republican seat as a result of the two right wing camps consuming each other. The Democrat would NEVER have won had that not happened.

Course, you can spin it as a victory. I'm anxious to hear how.

excon

Explain, what was the nightmare?

That the Eagles lost first place to the cowboys. Oh wait wrong thread!!

Hello Steve:

You lost a solidly Republican seat as a result of the two right wing camps consuming each other. The Democrat would NEVER have won had that not happened.

Course, you can spin it as a victory. I'm anxious to hear how.

excon

Let's see... we won the governorship of NJ, one of the most solidly Democrat states in the union.

We won Virginia, a state that Obama won by a landslide 15% last year.

And we lost in the NY's 23rd District of NY by 4%... despite the fact that Hoffman had no support from the GOP throughout the campaign, and Owens had the support of both the DNC and his other opponent, Scozzafava. With everything stacked against him, Hoffman made it a very close race.

Then there's NY's Westchester County, where Spano was ousted by Astorino in a 15% win. Keep in mind that Dems outnumber Reps by 2:1 in Westchester county.

Face it, excon. The Dems got gutted last night. It was a relatively small gut wound, but it is bleeding profusely. Next year, the gutting will be completed.

But you can try to spin last night as a Republican defeat if you'd like... as a matter of fact, I encourage it.

"Never interrupt the enemy when he is making a mistake."
--- Napoleon Bonaparte

Keep denying what is happening right before your eyes. Please.

Elliot

Nightmare ? Lol it was a nightmanre for President Obama who invested 5 separate appearances in NJ to support Corzine .

It was a nightmare for the Dems, in Westchester County .Westchester has been solid blue for over a decade . Conservative Republican Rob Astorino smoked the incumbent Democratic County Executive Andy Spano .Voters rejected the Democratic incumbent's bid for a fourth term, opting instead for a candidate who pledged to downsize government and cut the highest county taxes in the nation

Astorino's victory came despite the Democrat 2-1 margin over Republicans of registered voters in Westchester county .

Here is the truth of the NY 23rd results .

The Democrat candidate Owens was able to squeak out a victory . Over the weekend the Repubic candidate Dede Scozzafava dropped out of the race and then showing her true colors gave her endorsement to Democrat Owens.

The difference in the race is that she was still on the ballot and got about 5% from the faithful . Hoffman would have won if not for the votes Scozzafava received.Not sure how many of these were absentee ballots .

She is a long time party hack and did have a bit of a loyal following including regional unions .She's been an elected official and GOP leader for a decade.

The NY and national media smeared Hoffman and portrayed him as a rightwing extremist beholden to Rush Limbaugh and Palin which did hurt him a little with libertarian voters in the district.

But still he had a very strong showing despite his late entry into the race and lack of organization that the major parties have.

If you have never seen the NY State ballots ,with the multiple minor party slots it can be confusing for people to find their candidate if they are not in the A or B locations. Also many people from both parties still vote straight party line. To come within a few points of winning there under those circumstances is a major statement .

The fact that Hoffman made the race close is a good sign for next year. Conservatism isn't easy to sell to people used to having their government handout every day, getting it massaged with other peoples money.

But the conservatives have scattered the mustard seeds.(Luke 13:18–19). Let the 2010 primaries begin!

That the Eagles lost first place to the cowboys. Oh wait wrong thread!!!!

Yeah well that could change this week.

Course, you can spin it as a victory. I'm anxious to hear how.

No need, tom and Elliot jumped right on it.

I did not even mention the fact that in 2 major races the Dems lost by a combined total of 500,000 votes and the Dems won the NY 23rd by about 4-5,000. The tally of the combined races was a Republican victory of 55-42% overall in precincts that voted for Obama 56-44 last year . Keep in mind that Christe lost some anti Democrat Crozine votes to Independent candidate Daggert and still cruized to a comfortable victory.

Tweet of the day (http://twitter.com/jaketapper/statuses/5408891951) yesterday by Jake Tapper:

NBC's "The Biggest Loser" is at the White House tonight. This is not a joke.

Nightmare ? lol it was a nightmanre for President Obama who invested 5 separate appearances in NJ to support Corzine .


Let's see - Obama and Carter, a parallel is developing. Busy politicking for liberal cover, but dithering on the troops and the war he endorsed. Doesn't have time to make a decision honoring his general's request for additional troops, indeed. Obama is frittering away his goodwill; good riddance!

The night was a Republican victory ;but the NY 23rd was a shot across the bow of the Republican establishment . I think this bodes well to a challenge in Fla. To the Republican leadership's support for Charlie Crist in next year's Senate race . The Republicans better begin to take a serious look at Marco Rubio.I think that is going to be a big primary fight.

Meanwhile Owens is doing what "moderate " Blue Dog Democrats do .

Congressman-elect Bill Owens was sworn in at noon today.
Owens indicated in a press release that he was now in favor of the bill in direct contrast to his earlier position during his campaign.
According toPolitico.com (http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0809/Dem_House_candidate_against_public_option.html), Mr. Owens assured voters that he felt the public option had no place in the health care reform bill. Contrary to that position, Mr. Owens now indicates that he intends to vote in favor of the bill even though it now contains a public option.

http://www.gouverneurtimes.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7623:owens-to-break-campaign-promises&catid=60:st-lawrence-news&Itemid=175

"Owens Breaks 4 Campaign Promises in first hour in Congress". The Gouverneur Times - Your Online News Source (http://www.gouverneurtimes.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7623:owens-to-break-campaign-promises&catid=60:st-lawrence-news&Itemid=175)

The race for the 23rd was much closer than anyone suspected. There are recounts going on and absentee ballots counted and the difference in the vote total is shrinking.
Recanvassing shows NY-23 race tightens even as Rep. Bill Owens is sworn into House seat | News from The Post-Standard - (http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2009/11/its_not_over_recanvassing_shows_ny23_race.html)

Significant in this is the fact that Owens flipped on his opposition to Pelosi-care and voted with the majority last week. In retrospect ;Hoffman should have waited to concede.

I was just about to post this myself, tom. Speaking of outside shots, any chance you'll have mercy on my team this week? My strong team suddenly fell thanks to RB's getting yanked or hurt in the first quarter and another down week for a receiver or two.

Stranger things can happen I guess.:D

Not sure I could take losing weeks to both my AMHD competitors.

Let's see . Both our QBs are no guarantee this week. Turner and Mendenhall could easily outperform Jackson and Lynch... Moss and Holmes v Jackson and Colston is a wash in my view. I think I have an edge in TE ,D ,K ,and Flex (even though Ricky Williams was average last week).

I'm still amazed at the lack of trade movement in the league . I've been very lucky with waiver wire pickups . After this week I have no more juggling needed because of bye weeks (why did Moats sit there unclaimed for 2 weeks?? Amazing !)

stranger things can happen I guess.:D

Not sure I could take losing weeks to both my AMHD competitors.

You already beat me once so you have that :D


Let's see . Both our QBs are no guarantee this week. Turner and Mendenhall could easily outperform Jackson and Lynch... Moss and Holmes v Jackson and Colston is a wash in my view. I think I have an edge in TE ,D ,K ,and Flex (even though Ricky Williams was average last week).

They aren't projecting much for Mendenhall but they didn't last week against Denver's D when I foolishly benched him... he rocked on Monday. I figured Portis could at least get through a game the first time I have EVER played him.


I'm still amazed at the lack of trade movement in the league . I've been very lucky with waiver wire pickups . After this week I have no more juggling needed because of bye weeks (why did Moats sit there unclaimed for 2 weeks?? Amazing !)

I think I've managed 2 trades in all my leagues. I pondered Moats but Slaton has been good points-wise so I figured a clear number one in Portis was better than a "who knows what Kubiak will do."

I'll tell you guys this much McDrabb is not screwing me out of a win this week!!

Spit, that just made LOL, I nearly choked on my sunflower seeds. I think you have a good shot this week. Btw, I have a couple of really good TE's and could use a good defense...

Hmmmmm who are you looking at the Saints or the Eagles D?

How about the Giant D?? Surely they are worth an AP or a Michael Turner! :eek:

hmmmmm who are you looking at the Saints or the Eagles D?

Saints for Celek.

Tom I think you got into Ex's stash with that offer!!

how about the Giant D ??? surely they are worth an AP or a Michael Turner !!:eek:

Eek is right :D

I like Celek but I do have Health Miller. Let me think about it I'll let you know shortly

You should negotiate in secret. What if I countered with Davis ?

you should negotiate in secret. What if I countered with Davis ?

At least we got the ball rolling. Of course Davis won't help him this week, wouldn't go through until after he locks for tonight :D

Shhhhhh !

shhhhhh !

I may not be ahead in the standings but I'm not a complete dummy :D

I am going to pass I can't trust the eagles D. Spoken like a true Eagles fan!!

I am going to pass I can't trust the eagles D. Spoken like a true Eagles fan!!!!

Come on, they're ranked 2nd this week. It ain't every day you get offered a fine offensive player for a DST. ;)

The race for the 23rd was much closer than anyone suspected. There are recounts going on and absentee ballots counted and the difference in the vote total is shrinking.
Recanvassing shows NY-23 race tightens even as Rep. Bill Owens is sworn into House seat | News from The Post-Standard - (http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2009/11/its_not_over_recanvassing_shows_ny23_race.html)

Significant in this is the fact that Owens flipped on his opposition to Pelosi-care and voted with the majority last week. In retrospect ;Hoffman should have waited to concede.

What are the rules? If Hoffman conceded early and it turns out that he actually won, does he have recourse to "unconcede" the election and take his congressional seat? Was the election result certified yet (which based on precedent would mean that the results stand as they are)? If it turns out the Hoffman won and is now seated, will Owens' votes in Congress be reversed if it turns out that he was seated in error? Is this the basis for overturning the health care reform vote in the House and demanding a re-vote? Does anyone know of any law or precedent in such a case?

This has lots of ramifications.

And when are the pollsters, candidates, and talking heads going to learn to stop calling elections before all the votes are counted? Hasn't the practice of calling elections early based on early returns resulted in enough troubles over the past 10 years?

Elliot

Conklin said the state sent a letter to the House Clerk last week explaining that no winner had been determined in the 23rd District, and therefore the state had not certified the election. But the letter noted that Owens still led by about 3,000 votes, and that the special election was not contested -- two factors that legally allowed House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to swear in Owens on Friday.

"We sent a letter to the clerk laying out the totals," Conklin said. "The key is that Hoffman conceded, which means the race is not contested. However, all ballots will be counted, and if the result changes, Owens will have to be removed."

If he wins he wins.

This is unchartered territory. Madame Mimi should not have been permitted to sware him in until the State certified the vote. I have more research to do.

Hoffman has "unconceded " .

Hoffman 'unconcedes' in N.Y.-23 House race - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/67997-hoffman-unconcedes-in-ny-23)

I don't know what this means since Owens has already been sworn into the job.