Well, hello there all. I have a situation, well my sister does:

My gandmother bought a car for my sister three years ago. My sister paid her back as of this August. Well, now my Grandmother is saying that my sister owes her money for the interest on the credit card even though she never told my sister that she purchased the car on her credit card. There is no bill of sale, there are no payment receipts, just verbal agreements. Well my sister is refusing to pay the interest on the credit card because she doesn't feel that she owes it since my grandmother didn't tell her until NOW that she purchased the car on her credit card. My grandmother has apparently contacted an attorney who has contacted my sister saying pay up or get sued. Well, this is where the predicament occurs.

This letter states that unless she pays for the interest there are threats of justice court, civil court, and repossesion of the car. The letter also states that the lawyer cannot believe that a grandaughter would deprived owed money from her grandmother. Also the letter states that the lawyer KNOWS how much money my sister makes, and knows that she can afford to pay my grandmother. This issues I have with this letter are 1. why does the lawyer's opinion matter? 2. How does she know how much my sister makes? 3. Why does how much my sister makes have anything to do with this issue. 4. How can they repossess a car that's already paid for & in my sister's name?

To be honest, I suspect my grandmother drafted this letter herself to scare my sister.

NOW, I need to find out if this "lawyer" is really a lawyer.

What do we do?

4. How can they repossess a car thats already paid for & in my sister's name? NOW, I need to find out if this "lawyer" is really a lawyer. Hello Momma:

You're right. They CANNOT repossess a car that they don't own. Therefore, the threat is hollow.

Write this "lawyer" a letter. Tell him that there was NO agreement to pay interest, or interest would have been paid. Tell him further that if the grandmother wishes to file a small claims suit, she may and you are prepared to defend it. Send the letter certified, return receipt requested. Send a copy to Grandma.

excon

PS> It doesn't matter if the lawyer is real or not.

1. why does the lawyer's opinion matter?It really doesn't. In fact, I'm surprised that a so-called professional attorney would even interject his/her opinion.
2. How does she know how much my sister makes?Possibly several different ways. Word of mouth from your grandmother (of course, that constitutes the lawyer taking her word for it) ; also, does your grandmother know your sister's SSN? If she does and shared it with this lawyer, the lawyer may have done some checking. Of course, understand that ultimately, your sister's means to pay (or not) would have no bearing on any judgment that a court may hand down.
3. Why does how much my sister makes have anything to do with this issue.It doesn't. Like I just said, if your grandmother is eligible for a judgment against your sister, then your sister's income or lack thereof will have no bearing whatsoever.
4. How can they repossess a car that's already paid for & in my sister's name?Unless they have the title to it, they can't.
To be honest, I suspect my grandmother drafted this letter herself to scare my sister.

NOW, I need to find out if this "lawyer" is really a lawyer. Based on the points you've raised, I share your suspicions. Does the firm's name and other contact information appear on the letter? You can always check the local phone directory to see if such a law firm is listed. You can also try telephoning the number that appears on the letterhead. Another tactic is to contact your local bar association. If the firm is legitimate they will certainly tell you that. When push comes to shove, if your sister paid whatever she and your grandmother verbally agreed to at the outset, I don't think your grandmother has a leg to stand on if she were to take it to court.

Hello Momma:

You're right. They CANNOT repossess a car that they don't own. Therefore, the threat is hollow.

Write this "lawyer" a letter. Tell him that there was NO agreement to pay interest, or interest would have been paid. Tell him further that if the grandmother wishes to file a small claims suit, she may and you are prepared to defend it. Send the letter certified, return receipt requested. Send a copy to Grandma.

excon

PS> It doesn't matter if the lawyer is real or not.Had to spread it ex, but writing the "firm" a rebuttal letter is an excellent idea. 2 copies ; one certified mail, return receipt requested and another by ordinary regular mail.

If your question is how to find out if the "lawyer" really is a "lawyer," contact your local Bar Association and ask. In my area Attorneys are listed on line. I don't know if that is true in your area.

I wouldn't respond to the letter. Anything your sister says will be turned around. A contract cannot be modified at some later time. If there was no interest charged then, there can be no interest charged now - and this Attorney knows that.

I would not engage in a war of words with anyone, Attorney or not. If your Grandmother wants to take action, let he do so and then defend the action. Do I think your Grandmother will prevail? No.

And do I think the "Lawyer" is out of line - yes. If your sister has the time and energy, send the letter with a complaint to the Bar Association and let them deal with it.

Again - there is no legal requirement to respond. This is the same as if you borrowed money from me and I sent you some sort of veiled threat letter - you would ignore me and wait to see what I do next. Why engage in a conversation with me?

Your sister has nothing to legally add to the mix that the "Lawyer" doesn't already know.

Thank you everyone for the information.

Judy--Is there a site where I can find out if she's on the local bar? It's Lane County, Oregon.

s_--There isn't a letterhead. VERY unprofessional letter.

Another question that I have is: My sister is saying that if my grandmother takes her to court for this she wants to see if she can countersue for defamation of character based on the fact that my grandmother is calling a family friend and telling him what's going on, the letter was mailed to his house. And he has nothing to do with this, and Ashley feels that she looks like a bad person to him because of all of this.

Another question that I have is: My sister is saying that if my grandmother takes her to court for this she wants to see if she can counter-sue for defamation of character based on the fact that my grandmother is calling a family friend and telling him what's going on, the letter was mailed to his house. And he has nothing to do with this, and Ashley feels that she looks like a bad person to him because of all of this.She can't, unless she suffers and can prove actual monetary damages as a result of being made to "look like a bad person to him." Why was the letter mailed to his house? And not on letterhead? Now I'm practically convinced that your suspicions are correct, that the letter is bogus and not from a real lawyer.

It was mailed to his house, because my Grandma wants to have nothing to do with my sister except for her money.

Also, I COULD be wrong here, but isn't a letter such as this supposed to be served to the person its addressed to?

Okay, I'm simultaneously talking on here and to her on Meebo. I'm sorry, there WAS a letterhead.

If grandma has proof that she paid for the car ( credit card reciepts) and can prove there were payments made ( reciepts ofpayments) it is easy to prove there has been a loan made.

It is also not unexpected for interest to be paid, and many courts would allow common or min interest to be added to a loan.

So if it goes to court I would expect granddaughter to lose , esp in small claims court.

If someone is pretending to be an attorney now that is illegal and against the law. So you can compare the name and check with the state bar, and even turn them into the bar for pretending to be an attorney.

I will also be alitle blunt or rude, if grandma was willing to help, actually changed it on a credit card to help her buy a car, she should be bending over backward to pay the interest, it is not grandmas fault and not her debt to pay.

I would tell sister to get off her butt and pay grandma and tell her she is sorry for not being grateful for her help to buy the car

If grandma has proof that she paid for the car ( credit card reciepts) and can prove there were payments made ( reciepts ofpayments) it is easy to prove there has been a loan made.

It is also not unexpected for interest to be paid, and many courts would allow common or min interest to be added to a loan.

So if it goes to court I would expect granddaughter to lose , esp in small claims court.

If someone is pretending to be an attorney now that is illegal and against the law. so you can compare the name and check with the state bar, and even turn them into the bar for pretending to be an attorney.

I will also be alitle blunt or rude, if grandma was willing to help, actually changed it on a credit card to help her buy a car, she should be bending over backward to pay the interest, it is not grandmas fault and not her debt to pay.

I would tell sister to get off her butt and pay grandma and tell her she is sorry for not being greatful for her help to buy the car

There was no loan. My grandmother paid for the car in full, and sister paid her monthly. $75 for 40 months.

Sister was never told the car was being put onto a credit card. My grandmother is wanting her to pay $1005.40 credit interest for a $3000.00 purchase. My sister would have never agreed to the purchase had she known my grandmother was putting it on the card.

Lane County Bar Association (http://lanecountybar.org/)

Why didn't grandma pipe up earlier about the credit card interest? Makes no sense to me now.

Lane County Bar Association (http://lanecountybar.org/)

Why didn't grandma pipe up earlier about the credit card interest? Makes no sense to me now.

Who knows? She's not the most honest person. Neither my sister or myself have contact with her for some of the hardships she's caused us and the rest of the family. I assume it has something to do with her habit.

But if I were to go to the mall with a friend and they bought me a sweater, and I paid them back. And they came to me 2 months later and told me that I had to pay the credit card interest for the sweater, I'd tell her no way.

Is that site updated fairly often? I found the lawyer's name but not with the same law firm or address.

Also, I COULD be wrong here, but isn't a letter such as this supposed to be served to the person its addressed to?

No, Very often a lawyer will send a letter trying to intimidate someone. Only if a court action is officially filed would a summons need to be served on the defendant.

I'm assuming there was no written agreement. But I believe Chuck has a point. Unless your sister can prove that the agreement was to pay $75 for 40 months. If Grandma shows she charged the purchase and also shows that she has been applying that $75 towards the card balance, it may become a he said/she said deal as to what the agreement was. In which case a court may side with Grandma because it just makes sense. All Grandma has to say is she told your sister to pay $75/mth until the balance was paid. Your sister may have assumed that meant the purchase price. If Grandma started asking for the interest immediately after that last payment that makes even more sense.

And $1005.40 seems a reasonable amount of interest for the time.

If I were your sister I would try to reach an agreement with Grandma.

It would be interesting to know in whose name is the car titled.

Verbal agreements are binding. Yor grandmother is just asking to get back the money she spent on helping your sister buy the car.

Truth is a defense to defamation. Your sister looks like the bad guy by not paying your grandmother back.

This is NOT going to be a popular post - but here it goes.

This is the legal board and the "advice" MUST be legal, not moral. (I know, I was recently "corrected.")

It goes back to the ORIGINAL agreement - the total price, the number of payments, the amount of each payment. IF the oral contract - which is enforceable - does NOT call for the payment of interest then the contract cannot be changed now.

Again, this is not a moral issue. It's posted on the legal board. The legal advice is that a contract cannot be changed. As far as the letter from the real or pretend Attorney, I've addressed that.

The relationship between the Grandmother and Granddaughters is best addressed on another board.

Is that site updated fairly often? I found the lawyer's name but not with the same law firm or address.

In that case I have a suggestion for you. Use the reverse telephone tools and look up the phone number on the letterhead and see who it comes back to. Do the same using reverse address as well and see who the address comes back to.

I have no idea how often the Bar updates their site. You can also check the Oregon Bar website and see what this lawyer's last address and phone number is. Those state bar sites give good info as well. And you can also call up the Oregon Bar and see if he had amended his address with them. The same with the Lane County Bar. See if his address matches with the one on the letterhead.

I personally can't fathom an attorney actually writing such stuff either. He just may be a figment of your grandmother's imagination as well.

From her prior history of doing dasterdly deeds to your family this is obviously her MO. Be nice to someone and then years later come back and make an illogical demand.

I agree with Judy on this one. Out of greenies, JKT, sorry! Have to spread more love around pronto!

No, Very often a lawyer will send a letter trying to intimidate someone. Only if a court action is officially filed would a summons need to be served on the defendant.

I'm assuming there was no written agreement. But I believe Chuck has a point. Unless your sister can prove that the agreement was to pay $75 for 40 months. If Grandma shows she charged the purchase and also shows that she has been applying that $75 towards the card balance, it may become a he said/she said deal as to what the agreement was. In which case a court may side with Grandma because it just makes sense. All Grandma has to say is she told your sister to pay $75/mth until the balance was paid. Your sister may have assumed that meant the purchase price. If Grandma started asking for the interest immediately after that last payment that makes even more sense.

And $1005.40 seems a reasonable amount of interest for the time period.

If I were your sister I would try to reach an agreement with Grandma.

Grandma didn't ask for payment for interest, and didn't reveal to sister that she even put it on the card until two months ago when the balance was paid off.

It would be interesting to know in whose name is the car titled.

Verbal agreements are binding. Yor grandmother is just asking to get back the money she spent on helping your sister buy the car.

Truth is a defense to defamation. Your sister looks like the bad guy by not paying your grandmother back.

The title is in my sister's name. It was her choice to put the car on the credit card and it wasn't revealed to my sister until three years later when the card was paid off. I don't see how my sister is responsible for that.

CM - I kind of figured that there was no phone number. That certainly would have been too easy. You might want to also check out just who owns the property with the County folks if you can do this online. You just may be surprised to find out just who's address this really is. Also cross check the name of the attorney in the public records of the county to see just where he lives (if he owns real estate that is). You'll probably be surprised.

I do this sort of thing all the time and I come up with some rather interesting results when I "cruise" the county records... from the tax auditor's office, to the civil and criminal dockets. It's really a WOW some days for me. I guess you could say I'm a wannabe detective.

Grandma didn't ask for payment for interest, and didn't reveal to sister that she even put it on the card until two months ago when the balance was paid off.

See, the issue here is there was NO written agreement (correct?). A lot depends on what each party claims was the deal. If Grandma said 'I will pay for the car and you pay me $75/mth until the balance is paid' then she has wriggle room. Your sister can claim that she was not aware there would be interest and it becomes a he said/she said. Another issue is what Grandma said when sis stopped payments. If it was something like;

G: Why did you stop payments?
S: because I paid the whole $3000
G: But I put this on a credit card so there is interest and you need to keep paying until that's paid.

It still becomes a matter of your sister having no proof that interest was in the agreement. Without that I think a court is going to side with Grandma because its normal to charge interest when someone loans money. And this WAS a loan! Anytime one party provide3s money for another party to use with the expectation of a payback, it's a loan.

See, the issue here is there was NO written agreement (correct?). A lot depends on what each party claims was the deal. If Grandma said 'I will pay for the car and you pay me $75/mth until the balance is paid' then she has wriggle room. Your sister can claim that she was not aware there would be interest and it becomes a he said/she said. Another issue is what Grandma said when sis stopped payments. If it was something like;

G: Why did you stop payments?
S: because I paid the whole $3000
G: But I put this on a credit card so there is interest and you need to keep paying until that's paid.

It still becomes a matter of your sister having no proof that interest was in the agreement. Without that I think a court is going to side with Grandma because its normal to charge interest when someone loans money. And this WAS a loan! Anytime one party provide3s money for another party to use with the expectation of a payback, its a loan.

Correct, there was no written agreement, only verbal. And I meant grandma didn't take a loan.

And I meant grandma didn't take a loan.

Actually she did. By using a credit card to make the purchase she was taking out a loan.

Frankly, unless sis can prove that grandma only expected the $3K to be repaid, then she is going to lose in court.

Actually she did. By using a credit card to make the purchase she was taking out a loan.

Frankly, unless sis can prove that grandma only expected the $3K to be repaid, then she is going to lose in court.

OKAY, I meant that Grandmother did not take a loan from the finance company to purchase the car. Thank you.

I'm sorry to be disrespectful but how can you predict the outcome of a case that has yet to even occur? I think that is up to the judge if this actually even goes to court.

CM - I kinda figured that there was no phone number. That certainly would have been too easy. You might want to also check out just who owns the property with the County folks if you can do this online. You just may be surprised to find out just who's address this really is. Also cross check the name of the attorney in the public records of the county to see just where he lives (if he owns real estate that is). You'll probably be surprised.

I do this sort of thing all the time and I come up with some rather interesting results when I "cruise" the county records.... from the tax auditor's office, to the civil and criminal dockets. It's really a WOW some days for me. I guess you could say I'm a wannabe detective.

I did Google the address and it turned out to be the lawfirm that the lawyer says she works for in the letter, yet she's not listed there on the state bar. I will call Monday to find out if she's really there.

And here is the information that Judy found for me on the subject:
"She WAS a presiding (in office) Administrative Employment Law Judge. Might still be.
She’s active in the gay rights/civil rights movement; in fact, is legally married to a female."--JudyKayTee

I'm sorry to be disrespectful but how can you predict the outcome of a case that has yet to even occur? I think that is up to the judge if this actually even goes to court.

I'm not predicting the outcome, I'm expressing my opinion based on my knowledge of the law and court procedures. Of course, it will be up to a judge. But a judge has to rule according to the law. Contract law requires that there be an offer and an acceptance. So Grandma made the offer to pay for the car. Sis accepted the offer by taking the car and making payments. So the ONLY question here is whether the agreement was to pay just the purchase price or the financed price. A reasonable person would expect to pay interest for a loan. So a judge will rule on the "reasonable person" premise. This is reinforced by the fact that Grandma asked why payments stopped. So its my opinion that, unless she can prove that only the purchase price needed to be repaid, she will lose.

My question was and is - did the sister agree to X payments of $X each. Or did she say, "I'll pay $X a month until the balance is paid?

They agreed upon $75 a month for 40 months.

And there's your answer - the ORAL CONTRACT was 40 x $75 - anything after this attempts to amend the contract.

Your sister owes EXACTLY 40 x $75.

They agreed upon $75 a month for 40 months.

Can she prove it? While Judy is correct that Grandma can't change the contract, sis has to prove that was the contract.

No, and Grandma can't disprove it. It was a verbal contract.

No, and Grandma can't disprove it. It was a verbal contract.

And therein lies the rub. Since neither can prove that was the agreement a judge will have to rule based on the reasonable premise principle I mentioned. If I was the judge I would tend to side with Grandma based on the evidence presented here.

What evidence? That it's reasonable to expect interest?

What evidence? That it's reasonable to expect interest?

Haven't you been paying attention? I explained the law that a judge will have to follow a few posts back!

Anyway. I'll come back with updates about the phone call tomorrow. It's also suggested that sister send a copy of the letter to the state bar.