The scripture message, that men are cursed to trust man, would be a comparison to the commandment of having no other gods. To permit flesh/man to be the arm they reach to and follow, would be entering temptation.

Our Lord has promised to search the hearts of man. And in that search, Our Lord would see who man loves, what man treasures in life enough to make it the way of his life. What has man worked to achieve in his life.

I reference the scripture as truth of The Word, Prophecies Addressed to Jews

Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

How would you follow Christ Jesus? Why would you follow Christ? This thread could bring attention to the amazing truth of who Christ is in our daily life.

Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

How would you follow Christ Jesus? Why would you follow Christ? This thread could bring attention to the amazing truth of who Christ is in our daily life.

How about because Jeremiah was comparing verse (17:5) quoted above, as being true when the JEWS lacked the obedience and needed to be told, trust in the Lord (Jeremiah 17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is)

AND

(Jeremiah 17:10) does reference Christ Jesus ability to search the hearts of man referenced in (Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.)

This is saying He/Christ knows the mind of the Spirit.. And we understand that the mind of the Spirit is (John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me ).

So I would follow Christ, in the spirit, which is within my heart to do. And Christ will make intercession according to the Will of God, Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.

Godly fear in obedience:

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

So what are your works in life? What are the achievements? Who is Christ in your daily life?

How would you follow Christ Jesus? Why would you follow Christ? This thread could bring attention to the amazing truth of who Christ is in our daily life.

I follow Jesus Christ because I know who he is, this is from experiece and also from revelation. I have a long testimany of what Jesus has done for me, but I know that before I began to follow him I was truly lost, an alcoholic, a person who relied on himself but achieved little, a person who made many mistakes in relationships particularly in my family, a person for whom rejection coloured my life.

If by "how" you mean which church would I go to? I have come to realise it doesn't so much matter which door you walk in as it does whether you know the owner of the house. In some Churches , sadly, you will not be introduced to the owner of the house. So, learn as much as you can about what Jesus taught and then apply it

sndbay,
I follow Jesus as He and his apostles direct me to.
I participate in the sacraments God instituted and in The Church Jesus founded.
He is may Lord and Savior, King of the universe, so there is no "Why do I do otherwise?"
For me it is the only way to go and live and I do believe it is the only way for anyone who wants life everlasting to go and live.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I'd like to tell why I found the heart of desire to post this thread question, and how the scripture message became so important.

It started with a search in the scriptures, that led me to several scriptures saying, "GOD will search the hearts of man."

I trust that the judgement of man is done by our Lord, and HIS search is within the heart, and not based on the surrounding influences of the flesh. It is more on how we permit those surrounding influences to enter within our heart. Whether we enjoy them and give love towards them compared to not enjoying them, and refusing to accept them.

Christ told the disciples to watch and pray. That He did not want them to enter into temptation.

The tempations we can enter into comes by the surrounding influences.

*** so this is where it started, I became more aware of what our Lord is teaching in the book of Jeremiah concerning the JEWS. How we today have to causion our hearts of love, and make sure we accept ONE FAITH, ONE LORD, ONE Baptism, and ONE GOD and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Before my day ended,(and this was after the posted thread), I received an email from someone I know very well. And the contents of the email was that they had been studying the History of the JEWS. They said it was clear to them after reading this new book, that the JEWS had all good intention to worship God. That they loved God and did the things they did to show their love to God.

*** WATCH and pray, the influence the new book had on this person was saying.. Look at this differently then what Jeremiah has written

My answer would be->No to the man that wrote this new book...BUT What Jeremiah wrote, and what our Lord had to say concerning the JEWS was of truth.

What Jeremiah does say is how the people, the priests, and the house of God were all followed after man. The influences of their lives became the love of their heart.
Jeremiah is telling us that God is the all knowing of the heart. God searches the heart to know and told us that the JEWS were following man.

Point being who do you believe? Who do you follow?

Every word written in scripture is from the Spirit of truth. The ensample of faith and following in good works was told of in Hebrews 11.

We are not told by the mouth of God to do as the JEWS had done.

Clearly we are told to love people and given of our hearts, HOWEVER!! Commandment ONE!!! thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength (The desire of within ourselves to follow God)

Jeremiah 17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

SALVATION

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto HE called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Exd 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Jeremiah 25:6 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke ME not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

If by "how" you mean which church would I go to? I have come to realise it doesn't so much matter which door you walk in as it does whether you know the owner of the house.


So very true, and where our REST is, would be found in Christ. Not necessarily in a house built of hands but within ourselves throughtout everyday in the experiences we live, and share with others in love and faith.

sndbay,
I follow Jesus as He and his apostles direct me to.
I participate in the sacraments God instituted and in The Church Jesus founded.
He is may Lord and Savior, King of the universe, so there is no "Why do I do otherwise?"
For me it is the only way to go and live and I do believe it is the only way for anyone who wants life everlasting to go and live.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

In the first church spoken by the Spirit of truth

2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


You are being built by our Lord

EPH 2:19-20-21-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

So we are members of the first church

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

sndbay,
Yes I am a member of the first Church established by Jesus where the sacraments are honored and celebrated by His disciples and Apostles where the grace of God flourishes in marvelous buildings built by people for their love of God in which God is worshiped.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
Yes I am a member of the first Church established by Jesus where the sacraments are honored and celebrated by His disciples and Apostles where the grace of God flourishes in marvelous buildings built by people for their love of God in which God is worshiped.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

And I was not speaking of anything built by the hands of man..

We are the body of Christ, and members in particular, the fleshy tables of the heart. We that are sanctified in Christ (Hebrews 2:11-12 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. )

EPH 2:21-22In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

sndbay,
Yes I know you were not speaking of things built by men, but I did because Christ came to serve us with His infinite and perfect love and mercy in saving us from hell.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The Word of God is Truth



When in the spirit, we are sanctified in Christ. Therefore we abide in Christ, and Christ dwells within us. (John 15:4 John 15:7)

Phl 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel)

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular

AND as a temple in which Christ dwells, we that are "in the spirit " And can be the unity of ONE FAITH, with the knowledge of the Son of God. No man's hand created us, because we are begotten again unto hope by resurrection with and in Christ (1 Peter 1:3)

There is no denomination, No dividing Christ, Quench not the Spirit

And we are kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:5)

(Matthew 11:28-29-30) REST

EPH 4:13-14-15-16 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

EPH 2:21-22 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Once and For All


Col 2:14-15-16-17 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. KJV

~in Christ

sndbay,
I believe in and am a member of The Church Jesus founded caling it "My Church".
I believe he did that for a purpose for His followers to be members thereof.
The bible tells us that it is the pillar and support of the truth.
1 Tim 3: 15. But in case I am delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
So that is why I joined it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
I believe in and am a member of The Church Jesus founded caling it "My Church".
I believe he did that for a purpose for His followers to be members thereof.

Remember what Jesus said concerning all:
It is only the man/whosoever that the Father permits, will Christ then reveal truth.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Come to Christ! Christ is the begotten Son of God who gives rest

Matthew 11:28 Come unto "ME", all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Matthew 11:29-30 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Also shown: revealed by our Father to Peter, the spiritual truth concerning Christ

Matthew 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.



The bible tells us that it is the pillar and support of the truth.
1 Tim 3: 15. but in case I am delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
So that is why I joined it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred the church is the household members of God. And this teaching in which you have referenced was written by Paul to discipline the church/household.

Timothy was given instructions in orderly arrangement for the church. Some of the members there had turned aside altogether, and denied vital truth and did overthrow the faith of some.

Paul's warning of discipline was sent to enlighten the opposers. How the evil spread like leave rising is only too plainly shown in Paul's second epistle which has been termed a picture of ruin of the church through the members departure from the apostolic doctrine.

Instruction and discipline shown in verses ( 2:1 thr 3:13 )

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

1Timothy 3:5 For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?

The Mystery of Godliness connected to the verse you reference is in how they should behave as members in Christ :
(Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.)

continues to say: That Christ is within each member that acts according to the manifest flesh that was justified in the Spirit.
That manifest Flesh and Spirit being none other then "Christ and HIS Righteousness"

Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

That is how members should behave themselves..Having and walking in the Spirit of righteousness in following Christ




So if we see and hear the truth, some men can be blind to the truth. However, every man should be like the blind man, Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus.

This man knew who to call upon. This blind man knew his one hope of life, and the only chance he had for a new life. That new life was found in calling upon Christ. In the one hope of today and forever follow Christ.
(Mark 10:46-52)


~in Christ




Back to the thread:



How would you follow Christ Jesus? Why would you follow Christ? This thread could bring attention to the amazing truth of who Christ is in our daily life.

This is how and why I follow Chirst Jesus,with the Holy Spirit in me I bring every
Thought captivity to the obedience of Christ. I love the Lord with all my heart,
Soul, mind and being, and am committed to be responsible, and accountable to Jesus.
All I do and say, I pray, is from the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Way the
Truth and the Life for me. I choose to follow Jesus and do His will, Loving, Forgiving,
And to serve others in Jesus name. This takes a discipline, and a close intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus, to fully know Him and to love Him with all your being.
His Word, the Bible brings alive His love and Will for our life. I Love the Lord so
Much I can hardly stand it. HALLELUJAH

Love and Blessings, Maggie 3

Maggie 3,
Good for you.
That's the way I believe and feel also.
God Almighty is the Triune God of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with infinite, perfect and eternal attributes such as love and mercy, wisdom and understanding; the creator of all that can be seen and unseen.
There is no other so why would anyone not believe and feel as you and I do?
It s a big mystery to me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

His Word, the Bible brings alive His love and Will for our life. I Love the Lord so much I can hardly stand it. HALLELUJAH

Love and Blessings, Maggie 3

Bingo.. and a wonderful testimony in whom is shown that Christ is the voice Maggie hears. And the spirit of truth that can work in us.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

This holds true to the power and control our Father has in each of us that are sanctified through Christ Jesus. And the REST we are able to call upon and trust.

John 10:29-30 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

Maggie, too has mentioned how her testimony can be found in the volume of the book known to us as the Bible.

Psalm 40:7-8 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

It is Prescribed/Written

2 Kings 22:13 Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us.

The Word of God being Christ Jesus remined HIS supposed father, Joseph, and His mother Mary. That He, being the branch of righteousness, was written of according to scripture. Why then would Christ have to question them concerning their search for HIM because they too should trust, and believe the spirit of truth found and written in the Word of God.

Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

The same truth concerning Christ that was written in the OT AND is also written in the NT (Hebrew 10:7 10:9)

It s a big mystery to me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred


This too is written of Fred. There should be no mystery because we have been foretold all things (Mark 13:23)

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


All in who we follow and who we hear..

Thanks Fred, this goes back to the thread scriptures that were referenced. How to follow Christ, and why to follow Christ

~in Christ

In response to: Why would you follow Christ? How would you follow Christ Jesus?

We follow Christ because we are a part of God's Creation and as such receive God's love. "For thou lovest all things that are, and hatest none of the things which thou hast made: for thou didst not appoint, or make anything hating it." (Wis 11:25) God shows his abundant mercies to those who love Him. (Exodus 20:6) It is right and proper to return that love. And we know that God “was in Christ” who suffered our sins. (Cf. 2 Cor 12:19-21) Thus to love God is to love Christ who was the fulfillment of the prophecy bringing forth the Messianic Lord of the Kingdom of God. We become members of Christ's body (the Kingdom of God). Which, in its turn, brings us back again to the light of God's love. As St. Augustine said, “God loves all things that He has made, and amongst them rational creatures more, and of these especially those who are members of His only-begotten Son Himself." (Tractates on John CX).

In following Christ we pick up our cross and follow Him guided by His Apostles, deacons, Popes, Bishops and priests in the orthodoxy of our Catholic faith. Christ sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Apostles, to enlighten his Vicar and guide His Holy Catholic Church, the bride of Christ, to follow. Thus for two millennia right reasoned faith guides us to follow Christ for our salvation; “Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled [orthodoxy], without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.” (Quicunque vult, attributed to St. Athanasius). Thus crossing the threshold of Baptism the living enter the Kingdom of God in a mystical union of souls in the worship of the object of love, God. It's only here that we find redemption through the instruments of His sacraments; its only here that we find the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic truth of salvation. I follow Christ as he commanded, within His Kingdom, the Catholic Church, bearing the cross He gave me, as one member in a body of many parts (Cf. 1 Corinthians 12:12).

It's in God's love that we persevere with fear and trembling while working out our salvation. (Cf. Phil 2:12)

JoeT

I don't worship jesus, I agree that faith in anything of flesh is a disappointment in advance... It has been shown that other cultures have the same philosophical beliefs about there own "jesus." It all seems to break down to egytian mythology, I do respect and strive to practice the teachings that are told to be of jesus, if he was around he was a damn good guy. If story is true I believe he ascended to his divinity, not descended from God, all food for thought though I guess, no ones ever met either lol

For thou lovest all things that are, and hatest none of the things which thou hast made: for thou didst not appoint, or make anything hating it. (Wis 11:25)

Joe what is (WIS11:25)

We know that Christ said he came not to give peace but division between good and evil. (Luke 12:51) and it is also written that God loved Jacob and hated Esau (Romans 9:13)


God shows his abundant mercies to those who love Him. (Exodus 20:6)
(and keep my commandments.)

Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.



We become members of Christ's body (the Kingdom of God). Which, in its turn, brings us back again to the light of God's love.

We can be sanctifiieth members in one body with Christ, but that is determined by the Father

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Hebrew 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren

Hebrew 10:11 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1 Corthinains 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?



As St. Augustine said, “God loves all things that He has made, and amongst them rational creatures more, and of these especially those who are members of His only-begotten Son Himself." (Tractates on John CX).

Man shall live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.



In following Christ we pick up our cross and follow Him guided by His Apostles, deacons, Popes, Bishops and priests in the orthodoxy of our Catholic faith. Christ sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Apostles, to enlighten his Vicar and guide His Holy Catholic Church, the bride of Christ, to follow.

I trust we follow Christ by denying ourselved and to do the will of God. We are kept by the power of God through faith. We are the temple for the Holy Spirit, and we walk in the spirit. Christ dwells within us. This is all by the power of ONE God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Eze 11:19-20 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.



Thus for two millennia right reasoned faith guides us to follow Christ for our salvation; “Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.

I trust it is best to believe in what the Words in scripture speak of holding stedfast in our one hope of the calling.
ONE Lord, ONE Faith, ONE Baptism, One God and Father




Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled [orthodoxy], without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.” (Quicunque vult, attributed to St. Athanasius).

Joe according to what I have recently review that was written by the Pope Benedict, the members within the Body of Christ known as being baptized into the Catholic church denomination, are all sinners that can or may find newness of life by a ongoing call to conversion.

How do those members achieve the newness of life? How and when do those members believe they can be holy because Christ is Holy. When are they begotten again and raised to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled. I believe we are buried in Christ when baptized into newness of life.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

REFER Pope Benedict Quote: In Catholic theology we teach what the early fathers, Saints and Councils throughout the ages have all affirmed; to belong to Jesus is to belong to His Body. Our membership in the Church is a participation in the life of God; what the Apostle Peter referred to as a “participation in the Divine nature”.
We speak of our Christian friends in other Christian communities who have been validly baptized in accordance with a Trinitarian formula as already being in “imperfect communion” with the One Church.
This is why Catholics do not “re-baptize” a Christian from another community who comes into the Catholic Church.
We speak of them as coming into “full communion” because they are already joined to the one Church in an “imperfect” or incomplete communion.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, citing several ancient sources, states: “To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church.
The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world."

According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.

This Church is both human and divine; thus her members still sin

Pope Benedict's 'Impelling Duty': Rebuild the Full and Visible Unity of the Church - Catholic Online (http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=34702&page=2)




Thus crossing the threshold of Baptism the living enter the Kingdom of God in a mystical union of souls in the worship of the object of love, God. It's only here that we find redemption through the instruments of His sacraments; its only here that we find the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic truth of salvation.

From what is presented by the Pope, the baptism you speak of within the Kingdom of God is actually the Church. Thus the Kingdom of God is made up of sinners? That find redemption through the instruments of HIS sacraments?

It would be great if you understood the quote presented as being Pope Benedict's; but it's not the Pope's. However, it makes a strong case for Catholics to identify with the “mother” Church, living in communion, to view the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ. It's a conversation by Deacon Keith A. Fournier written May 22, 2009 at Catholic Online. I'm afraid that somehow you mistook the Deacon's words for the Pope's. Atually, it appears you've taken quotes from two different articles. No foul, but in full fairness to Fournier the following is the full article not quoted. It should be read in context. (Forgive me for the long post – emphases are mine):


Learning to Love the Church as we Love the Lord
By Deacon Keith A. Fournier, 5/22/2009 Catholic Online (www.catholic.org)

The early fathers, Saints and Councils throughout the ages have all affirmed; to belong to Jesus is to belong to His Body.


To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.

CHESAPEAKE, Va. (Catholic Online) - “Let us love the Lord our God; let us love His Church… Let us love Him as our Father and her as our mother” (St. Augustine) "No one can have God as his Father who does not have the Church as his Mother” (St. Cyprian) “For where the Church is, there the Spirit of God is also; and where the Spirit of God is, there the Church is, and all grace. And the Spirit is truth.” (St. Irenaeus of Lyons)

“There is no plan B” I said to my evangelical Protestant friend. “The Lord has not changed His mind. His work continues through His Body, His Church, of which we are all members through our Baptism”. This exchange came at the end of a lengthy conversation initiated by him. He was hungering for a deeper life, in his words, “in the Lord.”

A long time participant in the pro-life movement, he was first touched by the writings of Pope John Paul II and is a real fan of his successor, Pope Benedict XVI. He is moved by the Pro-Life witness of so many Catholics. He asked me some serious questions that day. I spoke to him of the theology of communion that is the heart of Catholic ecclesiology. I could see in his eyes the interest that will lead him even more deeply along the path I have witnessed so many others walk.

This encounter is happening frequently these days. I have spent much of my own public ministry in friendship and fellowship with evangelical Protestant Christians. There is a growing respect for the Catholic Church among many of our friends. For some, they have lived in an almost “Church-less” experience of Christianity; one that has so emphasized a “personal relationship” with Jesus (a vitally important truth) that often they have not experienced the “horizontal bar” of the Cross, the real implications of belonging to His Body in ecclesial communion.

However, they are not alone. How many Catholics understand the implications of their own Baptism? How many have experienced identification with the Church as a “mother”, or living in the Church as a “communion”? How many have come to perceive the Church as “Some – One” more than some-thing? Is this all supposed to only be the experience of the “mystics”, the talk of the Saints and Fathers, or, is it supposed to be the truly common experience of every Christian? I believe it is supposed to be the common experience of all Christians.

In Catholic theology we teach what the early fathers, Saints and Councils throughout the ages have all affirmed; to belong to Jesus is to belong to His Body. Our membership in the Church is a participation in the life of God; what the Apostle Peter referred to as a “participation in the Divine nature”. (2 Peter 1:4) We speak of our Christian friends in other Christian communities who have been validly baptized in accordance with a Trinitarian formula as already being in “imperfect communion” with the Church. This is why Catholics do not “re-baptize” a Christian from another community who comes into the Catholic Church. We speak of them as coming into “full communion” because they are already joined to the one Church in an “imperfect” or incomplete communion.

The headlines are filled with stories concerning the evil participated in by some members of the Catholic Church over a period of time in Ireland. The report was issued after a nine year investigation. It has left that Nation and the Irish Church heartsick. In the beginning of the sexual abuse crisis in the United States Pope John Paul II rightly referred to the evil at the root as part of the “mystery of iniquity.” So it is in Ireland. There is a purification of the Church underway. This passage of the Gospel comes to mind “… nothing is hidden that will not be revealed.” And, “…what was spoken in secret will be shouted from the housetops”. (Mark 4:22, Mt. 10:26) This is not the first time in 2,000 years that evil has found its way even into religious communities set apart for service. Then, like now, it was revealed.

Such times of purification often come right before a great time of genuine renewal. Could we be in the beginning of a great new missionary age of the Church? Along with the purification there is also springtime. For example, the “ecclesial movements” are flourishing and there is movement toward a dynamically orthodox Catholic faith and life among the lay faithful. Christians believe in a linear timeline of God's plan in human history. This is all going somewhere; and that somewhere is into the fullness of Some One, Jesus Christ. In Him we are invited into the very life of the Trinitarian communion in the Church. Every man, woman and child on the face of the earth is invited. The Church is, as the early fathers used to say, the “world reconciled.”

Saul's encounter with Jesus on the way to Damascus is instructive. Saul was a known persecutor of the early Church when he heard Jesus ask that probing question “Why do you persecute me?”: “On his ... journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.”” (Acts 9) Saul had never even met Jesus, at least during Our Lord's “earthly” ministry. He persecuted his followers. Yet, so identified was Jesus with His Church that He asked that question of Saul. Saul's response became the framework for his continuing conversion and apostolic mission. Jesus is still identified with His Church in our day.

The Church is not some “thing”, outside of us, which we try to “fix” or have our “issues” with. Through our Baptism the Church becomes our home, our mother, the place in which we now live our lives in Christ. That is not to say we do not sometimes have struggles with our mother. However, she always remains our mother. To perceive, receive and to live this reality requires a continuing and dynamic conversion. We are sons and daughters of the Church. In living our lives in her we carry forward in time the continuing redemptive mission of Jesus Christ who is the Head of His Body. In its treatment of this “mystery” of the Church, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:


“845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood. [St. Augustine, Serm. 96, 7, 9: PL 38, 588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18, 118: PL 16, 297B; cf. already 1 Pet 3:20-21] [30, 953, 1219]”

This Church is both human and divine; thus her members still sin. Sometimes evil enters and rots her from within. However, she is still the means through which we participate in the life of God. To her has been entrusted the Sacraments and the Word, the gift of a teaching office and the very means of salvation. The Church is not an optional “extra” that we add on to our lives, she is our life, because we live in Christ. From his wounded side she was birthed at the tree of Calvary, the altar of the new world. Through faith we are invited, daily, into this mystery and by grace we come to comprehend and live it.

Let us pray for the victims of the horrid events which occurred in Ireland. Let us pray for the leaders of the Church and the faithful of that land which has given the world so many great Christian leaders like Patrick. Let us continue to love the Church enough to stay faithful and be a part of her purification and renewal in this time of travail. Like I said to my evangelical protestant friend, there is no “Plan B.” We are called to love the Church as we love the Lord.

Deacon Keith Fournier asks that you join with us and help in this vital mission by sending this article to your family, friends, and neighbors and adding our link (www.catholic.org) to your own website, blog or social network. Let us broadcast, we are PROUD TO BE CATHOLIC!
http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=33615&page=1


JoeT

sndbay, I would like to add this, Gal. 2:19, "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God."----

When we trust in Jesus and win eternel place at God's side, we don't violate the law or somehow get around it. Jesus fulfilled the whole law, and by identifing with Him in His
death and resurrection, we do to. (Not by man made laws)

Gal.2:20
"I have bee crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I live in the flesh I live by faith"...

The secret to the Christian life is to allow Jesus Christ to live in and through you, by faith when you invite and allow the Hoiy Spirit to work in your life, you become a vital
representative of Christ.

Gal. 3:3 "Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

The entire Christian experience is to be lived by faith, from beginning to end. We are
justified by grace though faith, we are sanctified by grace though faith, and we will be
glorified by grace though faith.

Gal. 3:13 "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree")

The law is a curse to us in that it condemns our sin and therefore condemns us.
Jesus, the sinless Son of God, accepted our rightful condemnation and the punishment
we deserved when He willing went to the cross.

We live by faith not by man made laws.

Blassings, Maggie 3

It would be great if you understood the quote presented as being Pope Benedict's; but it's not the Pope's. However, it makes a strong case for Catholics to identify with the “mother” Church, living in communion, to view the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ. It's a conversation by Deacon Keith A. Fournier written May 22, 2009 at Catholic Online. I'm afraid that somehow you mistook the Deacon's words for the Pope's. Atually, it appears you've taken quotes from two different articles. No foul, but in full fairness to Fournier the following is the full article not quoted. It should be read in context. (Forgive me for the long post – emphases are mine):

[I]Learning to Love the Church as we Love the Lord
By Deacon Keith A. Fournier, 5/22/2009 Catholic Online (Catholic Online - Breaking News, World, U.S., Catholic, Diocese & Video News (http://www.catholic.org))

JoeT

I will respectfully acknowledge your reply with patiences. And redirect the facts by tolerance of good nature towards what was posted.



Joe according to what I have recently review that was written by the Pope Benedict, the members within the Body of Christ known as being baptized into the Catholic church denomination, are all sinners that can or may find newness of life by a ongoing call to conversion.

As Written concerning Pope Benedict, and the members within the body of Christ, known to be baptized into the Catholic Church...
Joe, you, instead of answering the questions, decided to posted some other online Catholic news release titled. (Learning to Love the Church as we Love the Lord )

I had addressed the one titled(Pope Benedict's 'Impelling Duty': Rebuild the Full and Visible Unity of the Church )By Deacon Keith Fournier 10/24/2009

Subject as to why I implied Pope Benedict's and His views


No further discussion is needed unless you care to answer the questions I originally posted.

sndbay, I would like to add this, Gal. 2:19, "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God."----

Thank you Maggie, this is so true. We should boast of the Law of Faith, because the just shall live by faith. Those who walk in the Spirit, walk to follow Christ, and hear HIS Voice, do it all by ONE Faith.
(Gal 3:11 Romans 3:28 Romans 3:27)



We live by faith not by man made laws.

Blassings, Maggie 3

That is the point of this entire thread. Man does not increase members of the church, or their faith. But have shown they will attempt to decease us.

1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.



Man does not bring the revealed truth to our hearts, but can example a godly faith and love in conversation.

Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

All power was given unto Christ Jesus in heaven and earth. (Matthew 28:18) It is the Father in heaven that will quicken our mortal bodies and dwell in us (Romans 8:11)
We are to be all that we were created to be through the Spirit of Truth in Christ Jesus.

From the Jews being shown in deception from man as written in scripture teaching of (Jeremiah 17:5) and our Faith being foretold to trust in God (Jeremiah 17:7) because we will fall short if we follow man, and allow our heart an indication that we follow the ways of this earth rather then the will of God. (Jeremiaj 17:10)

Our Faith should rest in our Lord, and not in man. (Matthew 11:29)

And again from the scripture teaching offered in (1 Timothy 2:1 thr 3:13) that Fred mentioned about the church. Warning of causion in behavior, and how some turn away from truth, and overthrow Faith in One God to being a strange man following man.
The clear interpretation of strange man would be as scripture indicates as estranged with man. (Psalm 81:9)

We have but One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism, and One God and Father..

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus


~in Christ

Thank you sndbay for sharing the truth and being here for us.
Love maggie 3

From what is presented by the Pope, the baptism you speak of within the Kingdom of God is actually the Church. Thus the Kingdom of God is made up of sinners? That find redemption through the instruments of HIS sacraments?

I don't understand, you cite several quotes and attribute them to the Pope; except the Pope didn't make these statements, they were comments made by Deacon Keith A. Fournier.

In any event yes the Kingdom of God, the Catholic Church is made up of sinners; as is every church whether they wish to acknowledge it. Redemption is in Christ; thus being incorporated into the Mystical Body of Christ (The Catholic Church). As Deacon Keith A. Fournier said, “there is no plan 'B'” And, as stated in Athanasius' creed, “Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled [orthodoxy], without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.” (Quicunque vult).



As Written concerning Pope Benedict, and the members within the body of Christ, known to be baptized into the Catholic Church...

Joe, you, instead of answering the questions, decided to posted some other online Catholic news release titled. (Learning to Love the Church as we Love the Lord )

I had addressed the one titled(Pope Benedict's 'Impelling Duty': Rebuild the Full and Visible Unity of the Church )By Deacon Keith Fournier 10/24/2009

Subject as to why I implied Pope Benedict's and His views

No further discussion is needed unless you care to answer the questions I originally posted.

No you said “REFER Pope Benedict Quote:” One would expect what follows is a direct quote. It wasn't. What was quoted was written by Deacon Keith A. Fournier. These were his opinions. While I agree with them, they don't hold the same authority that a quote from the Pope would have. Furthermore you seemed to have quoted several lines from several different pieces written by Deacon Keith A. Fournier.

I'm proud that you have a high regard for your own patience and tolerance; but at least while enduring me please suffer us with truth.

JoeT

Joe,
Thanks for posting that.
We should also keep in mind that when we pray The Lord's Prayer we are asking "thy kingdom come"
When Jesus taught that to his apostles The Church had not yet been established so he was teaching them to pray for it to come along later than at that time.
Now we do have The Church, the mystical body of Christ, here on earth so that part of the prayer has been answered and continues to be so
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

In any event yes the Kingdom of God, the Catholic Church is made up of sinners; as is every church whether or not they wish to acknowledge it.

Then I would ask you why Peter spoke these words that have said that all nations that work in righteousness, and fear God are accepted of God. Would you not agree that those working righteousness are not sinners, and those that hold a godly fear in God's hand of fire would be those that are not doing evil?

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The table that is prepared before all nations was Christ Jesus. His body and blood once and for all "Purged our sins", and set us free from the bondage of sin. Peter said, God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. Why then would any church call people unclean when they have confess belief in Christ the begotten Son of God and acknowledge all He has given us?

Psalms 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The new covenant was establish by the body and blood of Christ. God's promise which is offered in One Faith. We are sanctified through Christ. We acknowledge that being sanctified by the body and blood of Christ, is by the hand of God who has begotten again through Christ to be in likeness of the seventh day in which God sanctified as Holy.

Whether we trust in God and walk in His light of rightoeusness depends on the individual's willingness to dead each day daily by not falling to temptation that surround them. Surrendering to do the will of God, and deny ourselves. The Holy Spirit is of righteousness within those sanctified. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

John 17:17-18-19 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Sinner Beware!
Hebrew 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

Hebrew 10:38-39 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

If we say we need not follow, if we say we have no need of the forgiveness, then we decease ourselves. REPENT and confess our sins. Sin no more!

1 John 1:6-7-8-9 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son acleanseth us from all sin If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.




“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.

There is only One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. I speak no lies but what is written in the volume of the Book.





I'm proud that you have a high regard for your own patience and tolerance; but at least while enduring me please suffer us with truth.

JoeT

Are you waxed cold and unable to recognize my love for Christ Jesus, and His words of truth which is what I confess in One Faith?

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

2 Timothy 3:12-13-14-15 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

No sinner can say they walks in the light of God

1 John 1:6-7 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

~in Christ

Joe,
Thanks for posting that.
We should also keep in mind that when we pray The Lord's Prayer we are asking "thy kingdom come"
When Jesus taught that to his apostles The Church had not yet been established so he was teaching them to pray for it to come along later than at that time.
Now we do have The Church, the mystical body of Christ, here on earth so that part of the prayer has been answered and continues to be so
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Luke 11:10 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Hear His Voice, in the volume of the Book

~in the Spirit

The scripture message, that men are cursed to trust man, would be a comparison to the commandment of having no other gods. To permit flesh/man to be the arm they reach to and follow, would be entering temptation.

Our Lord has promised to search the hearts of man. And in that search, Our Lord would see who man loves, what man treasures in life enough to make it the way of his life. What has man worked to achieve in his life.

I reference the scripture as truth of The Word, Prophecies Addressed to Jews

Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

How would you follow Christ Jesus? Why would you follow Christ? This thread could bring attention to the amazing truth of who Christ is in our daily life.

I try to follow Jesus for a VERY SIMPLE REASON. JESUS IS GOD INCARNATE AND HE CAME TO EARTH TO SAVE MANKIND AND SHOW US WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO REACH OUR SALVATION.

His message, therefore, is tne final one and as such it supercedes and replaces whatever other messages we can find in the O.T.

Gromitt82

I try to follow Jesus for a VERY SIMPLE REASON. JESUS IS GOD INCARNATE AND HE CAME TO EARTH TO SAVE MANKIND AND SHOW US WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO REACH OUR SALVATION.

His message, therefore, is tne final one and as such it supercedes and replaces whatever other messages we can find in the O.T.

Gromitt82

I trust the History of the OT offers us wisdom and is referenced often in the NT. How God communicated in the OT with HIS chosen, and their obedience in doing HIS will should give us today an awareness of the importance in godly fear.

God promised in the OT the Branch of Righteousness

Jeremiah 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

And when you enter into the NT we read of how Faith that can be something unseen, can appear in many of those people told of in the OT. (Very descriptively written of in Hebrew 11)

Hebrew 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The exception is what was in rememberance of Faith/OT and what would be through flesh in Christ in the NT. Faith would rest in The Righteous Branch that was promise OT, forward to NT known as the Vine, a seed of David, that is the manifested righteous flesh of God, in HIS begotten Son. And offered as a call in willingness and hope, to hold to that same ONE Faith still not seen but told of in HIS Son Christ Jesus, the One LORD.

Jesus speaks of HIS Father that they have not known but He knows Him..
(John 7:29 John 8:55)

Romans 3:21-22-23-24-25-26 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


All written of in the Volume of the Book we know as the BIBLE witnessed and prophetised.

1 John 1:2-3(For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

~in Christ

sndbay,
Yes!
Fred

Then I would ask you why Peter spoke these words that have said that all nations that work in righteousness, and fear God are accepted of God.

Would you not agree that those working righteousness are not sinners, and those that hold a godly fear in God's hand of fire would be those that are not doing evil?
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

I separated these two statements because they raise two separate and distinct issues. The first raises the question of whether Peter was suggesting that 'righteous' nations allude to separate Christian faiths as being one church. It doesn't. The latter, is unrelated to the first except for its common use of righteousness, and seems to express the misunderstanding of what it means to be righteous.

Referring to your first statement, in saying every nation, Luke was referring to Jews and Gentiles; that it is righteousness along with justice and fear of Him. Catholic doctrine working in fear of God and justice is taken for granted in Peter's words, “accepted with Him”; a virtuousness nature of men who populate these nations. This verse doesn't say that by simply believing in Christ will make you a nation or will make you into your very own faith. The verse presumes righteousness conforms to Christ's Mystical Body, he Catholic Church. After all, Judas was a righteous man, up till his fall.

The second statement presumes that by 'faith alone' we achieve perfection in holiness. Then perfection would need to be proportional to the faith that we hold. Those with 'little' faith are saved just a little bit, and those with 'much' faith are saved a lot. We know that if God wills us to be righteous then we will be such. This, however is not the norm, it's a grace afforded to only one that I know of, Mary Mother of God. To this St. Augustine responds, “If God wished not that man should be without sin, He would not have sent His Son without sin, to heal men of their sins. This takes place in believers who are being renewed day by day, (2 Corinthians 4:16) until their righteousness becomes perfect, like fully restored health.” (St. Augustine, On Man's Perfection in Righteousness, 7) St. Augustine continues to allude to the fact that sin is like an illness in man, that full righteousness is only achieved when the illness is gone, “when there is fullness of love, for “love is the fulfilling of the law” (Romans 13:10) CHURCH FATHERS: On Man's Perfection in Righteousness (St. Augustine) (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1504.htm)

The table that is prepared before all nations was Christ Jesus. His body and blood once and for all "Purged our sins", and set us free from the bondage of sin. Peter said, “God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.” Why then would any church call people unclean when they have confess belief in Christ the begotten Son of God and acknowledge all He has given us?
In Acts 10:28 Peter is referring to unclean as 'defiled' in Mark 7:2,20. This is evident that the unclean is linked with 'common'. In antiquity, as it is today, commoners were thought of as being 'beneath' the elite. Unclean people ate unclean meats and were normally thought of as commoners by the Jews. Peter is discussing his realization that unclean food is acceptable to God and consequently should not be viewed as beneath him. You've drawn the wrong conclusion from this verse.


Psalms 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Yes! He leads me on a Journey and day by day I reach His Fullness of righteousness.


1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The new covenant was establish by the body and blood of Christ. God's promise which is offered in One Faith. We are sanctified through Christ. We acknowledge that being sanctified by the body and blood of Christ, is by the hand of God who has begotten again through Christ to be in likeness of the seventh day in which God sanctified as Holy.

A new covenant was established and a new Kingdom, in fulfilling Christ's commission the Church communicates the promised grace of his Body and Blood in the Eucharist, “I am the bread of life…He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day” (John 6:48,55) We are sanctified in Christ, as adopted sons, not a regeneration but an inclusion into the Mystical Body of Christ through Baptism.



… I confess in One Faith?

I'm confused I know you're not Catholic so which of the 'One' faiths are we talking about? Reading out of a Bible doesn't make you of one faith. The bible makes no claim as the authority over itself or over faith. And the bible makes a very poor witness, it can't be cross-examined and asked what is meant by any one verse. How do you have One Faith without the discipline of one authority? How do you have One Faith that denies that man can hold the grace of holiness, but rather is an abject depraved creature and for salvation must become a mind numbed Christ-O-Bot, who somehow is made sinless, without a blemish, and to believe such of himself but not of the Mother of God? How do you have One Faith, that isn't universal, meant only for the elite? How do you have one faith without the teachings of the Apostles?

JoeT

I worship christ I am a teen he helps me in many tough spots of life I pray to him and he answers it may sound crazy but one time I saw him in a vision and he spoke to me I'm not crazy he works in many ways and he has changed my life and the lives of many others I know

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

I separated these two statements because they raise two separate and distinct issues. The first raises the question of whether Peter was suggesting that 'righteous' nations allude to separate Christian faiths as being one church. It doesn't. The latter, is unrelated to the first except for its common use of righteousness, and seems to express the misunderstanding of what it means to be righteous.

Referring to your first statement, in saying every nation, Luke was referring to Jews and Gentiles; that it is righteousness along with justice and fear of Him. Catholic doctrine working in fear of God and justice is taken for granted in Peter's words, “accepted with Him”; a virtuousness nature of men who populate these nations. This verse doesn't say that by simply believing in Christ will make you a nation or will make you into your very own faith. The verse presumes righteousness conforms to Christ's Mystical Body, he Catholic Church. After all, Judas was a righteous man, up till his fall.

Joe look at the verse before that of (Acts 10:35) Luke is telling of Peter's ministry with others.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

This is in reference of Peter that opened his mouth (and began as the scripture, and preaching to all present here before God, to hear all things that are commanded to them of God.) Refer: 10:33

Remember that scripture is the Word of God that is spoken through Peter, and how this knowledge was known to Peter. (Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus .) The Word of God in flesh

The spirit of truth being fed was that all may come into the house of the Lord to be One with Christ. What is acceptable children with Him is godly fear and righteousness in obedience. The same Word of Scripture fed to them by Christ Jesus (Luke 4:17-18-19)

Righteousness is show to God by the heart of man. And God searches the hearts of men by the inward appearance.




The second statement presumes that by 'faith alone' we achieve perfection in holiness. Then perfection would need to be proportional to the faith that we hold. Those with 'little' faith are saved just a little bit, and those with 'much' faith are saved a lot. We know that if God wills us to be righteous then we will be such. This, however is not the norm, it's a grace afforded to only one that I know of, Mary Mother of God. To this St. Augustine responds, “If God wished not that man should be without sin, He would not have sent His Son without sin, to heal men of their sins. This takes place in believers who are being renewed day by day, (2 Corinthians 4:16) until their righteousness becomes perfect, like fully restored health.” (St. Augustine, On Man's Perfection in Righteousness, 7) St. Augustine continues to allude to the fact that sin is like an illness in man, that full righteousness is only achieved when the illness is gone, “when there is fullness of lov, for “love is the fulfilling of the law” (Romans 13:10) CHURCH FATHERS: On Man's Perfection in Righteousness (St. Augustine) (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1504.htm)

Joe we should not declare a doctrine other then that of Christ Jesus. (Deu 32:2)

Deu 34:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

Servants of Christ Jesus preach for the sake of Christ not themselves. And all praise and glory is shown to the power of God.

2 Corinthians 4:5-6-7 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Joe there is a day by day nourishment offered to the inward man. (2 Corinthians 4:16) Perhaps you should review what The Word of God says concerning the inward man.

"The Inward Man" (Rom. 7:22; 2 Cor. 4:16; Eph. 3:16).
This is the opposite of "the outward man" which perishes day by day, while this "inward man is renewed day by day"

We are being nourished and replenished day by day with grace and strength by the Holy Spirit; so that Christ can dwells in the heart by faith (Eph. 3:16) We learn something of His love which passeth knowledge, and are filled with all the fulness of God

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Parable of the wine bottle (Luke 5:37) The outward man, of old can not please God. That outward man of old must perish. And the outward man is doomed as is satan. You can not put the new with the old because then too the new will perish.




In Acts 10:28 Peter is referring to unclean as 'defiled' in Mark 7:2,20. This is evident that he unclean is linked with 'common'. In antiquity, as it is today, commoners were thought of as being 'beneath' the elite. Unclean people ate unclean meats and were normally thought of as commoners by the Jews. Peter is discussing his realization that unclean food is acceptable to God and consequently should not be viewed as beneath him. You've drawn the wrong conclusion from this verse.


This is not about meat, it is about men..

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The Gentile men were sent to Peter by God and God had gifted them with the Holy Spirit. Don't judge the outward appearance of man and what they eat was the teaching.



A new covenant was established and a new Kingdom, in fulfilling Christ's commission the Church communicates the promised grace of his Body and Blood in the Eucharist, “I am the bread of life…He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day” (John 6:48,55) We are sanctified in Christ, as adopted sons, not a regeneration but an inclusion into the Mystical Body of Christ through Baptism.


Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.






I'm confused I know you're not Catholic so which of the 'One' faiths are we talking about? Reading out of a Bible doesn't make you of one faith. The bible makes no claim as the authority over itself or over faith. And the bible makes a very poor witness, it can't be cross-examined and asked what is meant by any one verse. How do you have One Faith without the discipline of one authority? How do you have One Faith that denies that man can hold the grace of holiness, but rather is an abject depraved creature and for salvation must become a mind numbed Christ-O-Bot, who somehow is made sinless, without a blemish, and to believe such of himself but not of the Mother of God? How do you have One Faith, that isn't universal, meant only for the elite? How do you have one faith without the teachings of the Apostles?

JoeT

Joe who did the apostles ask to increase their faith? It is God that reveals the spirit of truth, just as it is written concerning Peter who knew the truth of our Lord Jesus the begotten Son of God. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase

Hebrew 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness)


No man will ever take my heart of love from Christ

Hebrew 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of HIM that created him



Spirit of Adoption

Romans 8:11-14 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

~in Christ

I trust the History of the OT offers us wisdom and is referenced often in the NT. How God communicated in the OT with HIS chosen, and their obedience in doing HIS will should give us today an awareness of the importance in godly fear.

God promised in the OT the Branch of Righteousness

Jeremiah 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

And when you enter into the NT we read of how Faith that can be something unseen, can appear in many of those people told of in the OT. (Very descriptively written of in Hebrew 11)

Hebrew 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The exception is what was in rememberance of Faith/OT and what would be through flesh in Christ in the NT. Faith would rest in The Righteous Branch that was promise OT, forward to NT known as the Vine, a seed of David, that is the manifested righteous flesh of God, in HIS begotten Son. And offered as a call in willingness and hope, to hold to that same ONE Faith still not seen but told of in HIS Son Christ Jesus, the One LORD.

Jesus speaks of HIS Father that they have not known but He knows Him..
(John 7:29 John 8:55)

Romans 3:21-22-23-24-25-26 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


All written of in the Volume of the Book we know as the BIBLE witnessed and prophetised.

1 John 1:2-3(For the life was manifested, and we have seen , and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

~in Christ

Of course, you are perfectly right in what you say.

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer by adding to what I write "His message, therefore, is tne final one and as such it supercedes and replaces whatever other messages we can find in the O.T, [I]WHEN THEY IMPLY OR SUGGEST CONCEPTS AND/OR MESSAGES THAT MAY DIFFER IN PART OR TOTALLY FROM JESUS'MESSAGE.
This is what I actually meant when I said Jesus' words are final!
Gromitt82

Of course, you are perfectly right in what you say.

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer by adding to what I write "His message, therefore, is tne final one and as such it supercedes and replaces whatever other messages we can find in the O.T, WHEN THEY IMPLY OR SUGGEST CONCEPTS AND/OR MESSAGES THAT MAY DIFFER IN PART OR TOTALLY FROM JESUS'MESSAGE.
This is what I actually meant when I said Jesus' words are final!
Gromitt82

Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. (John 1:14) The Word was with God and was God from the beginning (John 1:1)

I only suggest that all that was written is spoke by God, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. In that we can gain wisdom, and trust to surrender in obedience.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son

JoeT,
You did a good job explaining that well.
I add that The Church is the authority that upholds the authority of the bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Joe look at the verse before that of (Acts 10:35) Luke is telling of Peter's ministry with others.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

This is in reference of Peter that opened his mouth (and began as the scripture, and preaching to all present here before God, to hear all things that are commanded to them of God.) Refer: 10:33

No it doesn't mean that he began to speak scripture. Let's try this thing with Acts 10 one more time.

“He opened his mouth” is a literary form of saying, pay attention, someone important is about to speak. In this case, Peter who is first Apostle among equals is pronouncing something dramatic to the Jew's who followed Christian sect. This is a big deal to Jew and gentile alike regarding being common or unclean for eating certain meats. Flash to Peter in Joppe, Peter went to his roof at the sixth hour (I think that's midnight). Hunger came over Peter. As the house staff was preparing his Jewish Dagwood sandwich Peter had a vision; a large tablecloth came down from heaven, opened up to reveal all manner of crawling and animals with cloven hooves. Peter was told to kill and eat. Well, this didn't set well with this Jewish fisherman, who wouldn't dream of eating one bite of St. Louis barbecue, or anything unclean. Peter said, “Far be it from me. For I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean.” (Acts 10:14) A voice spoke to Peter again: “That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common. “ This vision isn't about men nor is it about barbecue. “What God hath cleansed, do not call common.” Why was Peter the recipient of this vision? Why not Simon or Cornelius? The reason is obvious.

The First among equal Apostles, Peter, was about to make one of those earth shattering announcements. The fledgling sect of Jews, which were to be called Catholic, announces to the Jewish world that it's OK to eat common and unclean foods. For the first time Peter could enjoy Memphis barbecue without sinning – as long as he understands that St. Louis type is still banned down here (for good reason).

The author is telling us something about how important this revelation is and, in doing so, he is telling us something about Peter. Peter is making an authoritative announcement:I don't believe this was first doctrinal announcement by the Vicar of Christ (maybe the second or third). By Luke telling us that Peter is opening his mouth he is takeing a literary form of saying 'pay attention' someone with authority is speaking to us. And who was this someone? Peter the first among Vicars of Christ.


Remember that scripture is the Word of God that is spoken through Peter, and how this knowledge was known to Peter. (Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus .) The Word of God in flesh

The spirit of truth being fed was that all may come into the house of the Lord to be One with Christ. What is acceptable children with Him is godly fear and righteousness in obedience. The same Word of Scripture fed to them by Christ Jesus (Luke 4:17-18-19)

Righteousness is show to God by the heart of man. And God searches the hearts of men by the inward appearance.

Joe we should not declare a doctrine other then that of Christ Jesus. (Deu 32:2)

Deu 34:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

Servants of Christ Jesus preach for the sake of Christ not themselves. And all praise and glory is shown to the power of God.

2 Corinthians 4:5-6-7 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

How all this is germane to Acts 10 escapes me - it distorts the meaning of scripture. In fact it bruises the scriptures; remember one Truth, one Christ, One Church.


Joe there is a day by day nourishment offered to the inward man. (2 Corinthians 4:16) Perhaps you should review what The Word of God says concerning the inward man.

"The Inward Man" (Rom. 7:22; 2 Cor. 4:16; Eph. 3:16).
This is the opposite of "the outward man" which perishes day by day, while this "inward man is renewed day by day"

We are being nourished and replenished day by day with grace and strength by the Holy Spirit; so that Christ can dwells in the heart by faith (Eph. 3:16) We learn something of His love which passeth knowledge, and are filled with all the fulness of God

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Parable of the wine bottle (Luke 5:37) The outward man, of old can not please God. That outward man of old must perish. And the outward man is doomed as is satan. You can not put the new with the old because then too the new will perish.

This is not about meat, it is about men..

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The Gentile men were sent to Peter by God and God had gifted them with the Holy Spirit. Don't judge the outward appearance of man and what they eat was the teaching.


Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Joe who did the apostles ask to increase their faith? It is God that reveals the spirit of truth, just as it is written concerning Peter who knew the truth of our Lord Jesus the begotten Son of God. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase

Hebrew 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness)


No man will ever take my heart of love from Christ

Hebrew 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

These tangential arguments don't change the fact that the nourishment offered by Christ can't be misunderstood in scripture. It's in plain simple language; I thought you were a 'scripture only' Christian. Everlasting life can only be obtained in communion with the body and blood of Christ.


I am the bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever. (John 6:48 seqq.)

Does this scandalize you?

JoeT

Joe,
Once again you impress me with your understanding of Scripture and how it relates.
Thank you,
Fred

No it doesn’t mean that he began to speak scripture. Let’s try this thing with Acts 10 one more time.

“He opened his mouth” is a literary form of saying, pay attention, someone important is about to speak. In this case, Peter who is first Apostle among equals is pronouncing something dramatic to the Jew’s who followed Christian sect. JoeT


I disagree with you, and I believe in the power Our Father who is the spirit of truth. It is Our Father that shew all that was spoken by the disciples. This was shown by Christ in all that He spoke was of HIS Father.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come


Example the spirit of the Lord was with Philip:

Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.


What Luke has written is that they are before God, to hear all things that are commanded by God

Act 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.


Peter is speaking of truth that is percieved (the spirit of truth that is shew to him )

Act 10:34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons

It is written that Peter could not have spoken of these things in which he preached, but amazing enough it was the spirit of truth that shew him these things. That is why I included what was written. To tell you, it is not I that says this but the word of God.

Without the Comforter, they knew nothing! We know nothing without the Comforter. And I shall never deny the Holy Spirit who is the spirit of truth from the Father within me.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. (John 1:14) The Word was with God and was God from the beginning (John 1:1)

I only suggest that all that was written is spoke by God, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. In that we can gain wisdom, and trust to surrender in obedience.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son


2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son

John is precisely saying in this paragraph what I am trying to point out less clearly, of course.
We have to abide by THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST, as simple as that.

Gromitt82

Sndbay:

The logic presented here is like the logic of putting a screen door on a submarine then floating your conceptual vessel of liberal theology. No matter what’s said, the liquid that’s the essence of commonsense just pours through your arguments. This non-buoyant vessel will never float.

The example of Acts 8 proves the point that he "opened his mouth" is a literary form of accenting the importance of the message and the speaker. The Apostles Philip’s comments were extremely important to the Ethiopian eunuch, and to Christians only by extension of the importance of the lesson. But still, Philip “opened his mouth” to ‘preach’ what was already written in Isaiah and its relationship to Christ; not to write scripture. One degree of importance, another degree of importance of the speaker. However, Peter’s message was universal to all mankind. Both his message and the person making the statement, Peter, were important to the author. Thus Luke draws our attention, Peter “opened his mouth”. You're forcing your own opinion onto the author.


JoeT

Sndbay:

The logic presented here is like the logic of putting a screen door on a submarine then floating your conceptual vessel of liberal theology. No matter what's said, the liquid that's the essence of commonsense just pours through your arguments. This non-buoyant vessel will never float.

The example of Acts 8 proves the point that he "opened his mouth" is a literary form of accenting the importance of the message and the speaker. The Apostles Philip's comments were extremely important to the Ethiopian eunuch, and to Christians only by extension of the importance of the lesson. But still, Philip “opened his mouth” to 'preach' what was already written in Isaiah and its relationship to Christ; not to write scripture. One degree of importance, another degree of importance of the speaker. However, Peter's message was universal to all mankind. Both his message and the person making the statement, Peter, were important to the author. Thus Luke draws our attention, Peter “opened his mouth”. You're forcing your own opinion onto the author.


JoeT

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Follow man, or follow the word of God Christ Jesus? It is choice.

I rest in Christ the One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

sndbay,
I must agree with Joe and Gromitt82 on this.
Your scriptural logic appears to be faulty.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I agree with you sndbay, "In all these things we are more than conquers through Him that loved us." Rom 8:37

It seems that we have different schools of thought on this and it is interesting.
Different people see different things in different ways.
Perhaps that is one of the reasons that there are over 30,000 different denominations that keep we Christians from being united as Jesus wants us to be.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

By taking the Logos as 'a word' in the verse John 1:14 causes a problem. Paraphrasing St. Chrysostom, before taking John 1:14 literal we should first read Galatians 3:13, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us (for it is written: Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree),” Reading this in the same literal sense as you read John 1:14, then we've got to ask if Christ is cursed? Is it the intent of Paul to say that God's essence removed its glory and became cursed? Of course not! Rather, he took on the suffering of the curse so that man can be free of the Law. Likewise when “the Word was made “Flesh” God took on the flesh of man to become the Son of man so that we might become children of God.

The Logos is the term used to designate the “Word of God” who is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. The Logos didn't 'become' flesh or 'become' the word, but rather the essence of God, by conjoining God and Flesh, 'took on' Him in the form of ONE, Jesus Christ. Nothing is added, in “the Word was made flesh”, nothing was destroyed in the union, but rather God's essence infused with flesh. Though we count every word recorded in scripture as spoken by Christ, though we revere and set to memory every verse uttered by Christ, the verse John 1:14, Christ does not become the Bible – what a sacrilege this would be. (Cf. Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homily 11)

It's funny that the Second Epistle of John should be mentioned in connection the literal reading of John 1:14, because the Second Epistle of John was a Catholic letter meant for all Churches (universal) to warn against Docetic and Gnostic heresies. The Docetics believed that the Logos was an illusion; that Christ only seemed to be a man. The Gnostics believed that salvation was possessed by secretly transmitted knowledge regarding the mysteries of the universe in some kind of magic formula. John was warning against these heresies. In verse 9,”Whosoever revolteth and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son.” John is simply stating that these heretical doctrines are not doctrine of Christ because they reject the Trinity, either the Father or the Son as being distinct Persons in the one Nature of God. This gets us back to 'orthodoxy' mentioned some posts ago. We keep the purity of our faith in the discipline of the intellect; a discipline of course requires an authority, right reasoning in faith or a purity of faith found in the Catholic Church.

JoeT

JoeT,
Once again I must agree with you.
Peace and kindness,
'Fred

It seems that we have different schools of thought on this and it is interesting.
Different people see different things in different ways.
Perhaps that is one of the reasons that there are over 30,000 different denominations that keep we Christians from being united as Jesus wants us to be.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

And I conclude there is no different denominations in those that walk in the Spirit of truth. Because the perfect man (Eph 4:13) that is unity in the fulness of Christ Jesus, follows in ONE Faith, One Lord, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


The Word of God in Christ Jesus, is the grace and truth. (John 1:14 John 1:17) Christ death on the cross beared record that scripture is true. (John 19:36)

I believe whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.



sndbay,
I must agree with Joe and Gromitt82 on this.
Your scriptural logic appears to be faulty.
Peace and kindness,
Fred


If you find fault in my belief in Jesus, then you have judge what the Spirit of truth has revealed to me. And I have shown nothing other then my love for Christ Jesus, and for all brotheres and sisters.

Edit: adding this note of scripture (2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise)


1 Peter 2:21-22-23-24 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Does the truth of scripture says we continue to sin and live by unrighteoeusness?

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

~in Christ

I follow Jesus, because He is the only true living God. He did a wonderful thing for all of us, by dying on the cross for all our sins, and we are scott free when we believe in this amazing fact.

Besides, He helps me in my life, He is a shoulder to cry on, He gives me peace, I can trust Him with my life, He is there to carry me no matter what happens, He doesn't accuse me like my dad, He is not clueless like my mom... In all - He is my protector and friend!!

Now how about that?

And I conclude there is no different denominations in those that walk in the Spirit of truth. Because the perfect man (Eph 4:13) that is unity in the fulness of Christ Jesus, follows in ONE Faith, One Lord, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


The Word of God in Christ Jesus, is the grace and truth. (John 1:14 John 1:17) Christ death on the cross beared record that scripture is true. (John 19:36)

I believe whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.





If you find fault in my belief in Jesus, then you have judge what the Spirit of truth has revealed to me. And I have shown nothing other then my love for Christ Jesus, and for all brotheres and sisters.

Edit: adding this note of scripture (2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise)


1 Peter 2:21-22-23-24 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Does the truth of scripture says we continue to sin and live by unrighteoeusness?

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

~in Christ


I believe whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Would it be asking too much that you could write English forgetiing the grammar used in the 18th Century? Some foreigners might find it difficult to grasp the meaning of all these words.
This said, I gather in the above fragment you are saying that those who sin have no GOD or are not entitled to GOD's forgiveness. While those who abide by the doctrine of Christ had both the Father and the Son, and I suppose to Holy Spirit, too. And that by saying they have GOD they must not ever sin, because if they do they are immediately rejected by GOD.
If this what you are trying to say, I'm sorry to disagree.
And instead of quoting any Apostles I will quote Jesus Christ himself, who said in the Cross: Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing

Gromitt82

Would it be asking too much that you could write English forgetiing the grammar used in the 18th Century? Some foreigners might find it difficult to grasp the meaning of all these words.

Gromitt82

It is scripture.



I believe whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.


Compare

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. KJV

Most always I do advert back to scripture when I speak , especially in discussion of the Word of God. It is very natural to give heed or attention to the spirit of truth by written scripture. I find no difficulity in grasping the meaning. The result of interpretation for everyone is given from the Holy Spirit, and therefore the will of God.

Sndbay

Maybe it would be helpful to explain what the “doctrine of Christ” is. Catholics look at doctrine as a guide, another word for catechism. Doctrine comes from the Latin meaning teaching. Perhaps it means something different to you?

1 Timothy 4:13, 16 NEW ADVENT BIBLE: 1 Timothy 4 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1ti004.htm#vrs13)
1 Timothy 5:17 NEW ADVENT BIBLE: 1 Timothy 5 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1ti005.htm#vrs17)
2 Timothy 4:2 NEW ADVENT BIBLE: 2 Timothy 4 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/2ti004.htm#vrs2)

JoeT

The result of interpretation for everyone is given from the Holy Spirit, and therefore the will of God.

So are you saying that it is God's will that there are so many different and contradictory interpretations of scripture? Surely there is but One Truth.

For example, is transubstantiation true ? Does the bread and the wine literally become the body and blood of Jesus Christ?

There are Christians who say yes and there are those who say no. Both believe that their interpretation is guided by the Holy Spirit. So who is correct and how can you decide?

Sndbay,
I am not judging your faith.
ONLY God can do that.
You believe as you do and I do believe as I do.
I see some Scripture differently than you do.
That's nothing new. It has gone on for many years particularly since the Protestants came into being.
For me I must go along with the authority of God in His Word and His Church that Jesus founded of the Rock called Peter.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Gromitt82

It is scripture.



Compare

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. KJV

Most always I do advert back to scripture when I speak , especially in discussion of the Word of God. It is very natural to give heed or attention to the spirit of truth by written scripture. I find no difficulity in grasping the meaning. The result of interpretation for everyone is given from the Holy Spirit, and therefore the will of God.

Sndbay,

“Whoever transgresses[a] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.” (2 John 1:9)
NEW KING JAMES VERSION.
I daresay that this is Scripture too and, certainly, adapted to the language spoken right now.
You may not find “any difficulty in grasping the meaning of the 1ST KING JAMES VERSION. Your mother language is probably English.
I find no difficulty in grasping the meaning of the NUEVA VERSIÓN INTERNACIONAL, in Spanish or of LA BIBLE DU SEMEUR, in French, or O LIVRO, in Portuguese, or LA PAROLA È VITA, in Italian. I also grasp most of the 1ST KING JAMES VERSION... ALL THE PRECEDING TEXTS ARE BIBLES IN DIFFERENT LANGUAGES, AND THEREFORE VALID AND LEGITIMATE “SCRIPTURES”.
But you seem to forget that the original Scriptures were written in Hebrew, Aramaic and later on, on Latin.
Jesus spoke in Aramaic, not in English, and the Gospels – according to most scholars – were basically written in Greek. So I do not see why we should consider the kind of English used in the original KINF JAMES version of the Bible any BETTER than any other translation whether older or more modern.
I DO NOT BELIEVE the will of GOD has anything to do here.
GOD allowed Mankind to have and use many languages, and these languages have been undergoing modifications and corrections in accordance with the language spoken in the different epochs.
The KING JAMES VERSION was finished in 1611 (17th century) but that DOES NOT make it the ONLY ONE AUTHORIZED BY THE WILL OF GOD. It is just ANOTHER TRANSLATION OF THE ORIGINAL BOOKS. and certainly is no better or truer than THE NEW KING JAMES VERSION, FINISHED IN 1982.

As Elscarta has already pointed out the original text of the Scriptures was just one.That is, if Moses was the author (as many believe) of the Genesis he certainly did not write several versions. He wrote only one, surely inspired by GOD, and it is that very version the one that have suffered a number of translations, until our days.

This is just to say that if the O.T. was basically inspired by GOD and the N.T. is the collection or gathering of Jesus’ Message, it is highly unlikely that there have been many ORIGINAL versions. What has happened is that some men decided long ago that a certain translation was the right one while others determined the tru one was theirs. And this turned out to be the reason that justifies the existence of 8 Primary versions and of several hundreds of 2nd versions, each one pretending to be the exact translation of the original one, which is, of course, impossible.

So you are entitled to believe as you please, but please do not try to impose upon others your own beliefs as you were the only one in possession of the truth.

Gromitt82

So are you saying that it is God's will that there are so many different and contradictory interpretations of scripture? Surely there is but One Truth.

For example, is transubstantiation true ? Does the bread and the wine literally become the body and blood of Jesus Christ?

There are Christians who say yes and there are those who say no. Both believe that their interpretation is guided by the Holy Spirit. So who is correct and how can you decide?

This is a different thread discussion entirely. But I will say that it is all according to what your heart is willing to believe. That is why the heart is search by Christ. Men that follow man's doctrine as example in the teaching of scripture, are also exampled that God permitting the delusion of their ways or choice.

It brings attention to Christ saying to follow Him and deny thyself. What is the willingness of heart ?

Men that follow man's doctrine as example in the teaching of scripture, are also exampled that God permitting the delusion of their ways or choice.


But this contradicts your previous post



The result of interpretation for everyone is given from the Holy Spirit, and therefore the will of God.


How can you argue that men follow man's doctrine? There is no such thing if all interpretation is given from the Holy Spirit and is the will of God!

And if all interpretation is the will of God then you are saying that it is the will of God that some men hold false beliefs (delusion). God is the God of Truth not falsehood, it is Satan that is the father of all falsehood!

how can you argue that men follow man's doctrine? There is no such thing if all interpretation is given from the Holy Spirit and is the will of God!



Look to the Word of God, search for wisdom that is the knowledge scripture offers. There is such a thing of man's doctrine for those who do not read, and instead depend upon others to read for them. All that was written was fulfilled in Christ for us to follow HIM. And Yes, Jesus told the disciple Peter to feed His sheep. And Christ promised Peter and the other disciples the Comforter would be sent to put them in rememberances of all they had been told by HIM. The causion is to watch what is being fed today. Is it indeed Christ's blood, which is the cup of the New Testament) (1 Corinthinas 11:25) and that we drink of that cup in rememberance of HIM. Or today are we being fed by the many false prophets that shall rise, and shall deceive many. (Matthew 24:11)

Question why someone might try to deceive us in thinking what is written would not be all the truth or not enough of the spirit of truth? Why would it be that all are not taught to read and search the Word of God, and told to depend upon it's truth.

Statement of Truth is that All that was written was given by the inspiration of God and HIS witnesses that were godly servants in doing HIS will.

Then also question why these deceiving many have changed the order of what was written?


2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Gal 6:6-7-8 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

This is a different thread discussion entirely. But I will say that it is all according to what your heart is willing to believe. That is why the heart is search by Christ. Men that follow man's doctrine as example in the teaching of scripture, are also exampled that God permitting the delusion of their ways or choice.

It brings attention to Christ saying to follow Him and deny thyself. What is the willingness of heart ?

Both Gromitt82 and elscarta have asked germane questions given that you suggested that the result of multiple interpretations of scripture is derived from the Holy Spirit, the third person in the Trinity and that yours are correct and everybody else is wrong. I've asked the same question before, why is Catholic interpretation of Scripture different from yours. What makes it different based on your theories? Why is Catholic interpretation “man's doctrine” and your interpretation Divine? If they both come from the Holy Spirit why would God delude one and not the other? Why would God delude either, does God lie? Is Catholicism wrong in your estimation and what is the basis of your opinion? It would be very interesting if you would be candid.

JoeT

Both Gromitt82 and elscarta have asked germane questions given that you suggested that the result of multiple interpretations of scripture is derived from the Holy Spirit, the third person in the Trinity and that yours are correct and everybody else is wrong. I’ve asked the same question before, why is Catholic interpretation of Scripture different from yours. What makes it different based on your theories? Why is Catholic interpretation “man’s doctrine” and your interpretation Divine? If they both come from the Holy Spirit why would God delude one and not the other? Why would God delude either, does God lie? Is Catholicism wrong in your estimation and what is basis of your opinion? It would be very interesting if you would be candid.

JoeT

Fanaticism is a dangerous trend (even a curse) as far as Religion is concerned. The Inquisition was a reflection of the fanaticism that flooded our Roman Catholic Church as of the 13th century and that was responsible for countless atrocities.
Jesus' message certainly discards any kind of fanaticism while He is preaching "love one another". " A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another (John 13:34).

I'm sorry to say so but I'm afraid our colleague tends to be somewhat "fanatic" in his/her remarks.

Gromitt82

Sndbay,
I am not judging your faith.
ONLY God can do that.

True and in that God will be the judge of faulty works



You believe as you do and I do believe as I do.

True



I see some Scripture differently than you do.

True and those difference can be discussed and disagreed upon without judgement, but by way of discernment.



That's nothing new. It has gone on for many years particularly since the Protestants came into being.
For me I must go along with the authority of God in His Word and His Church that Jesus founded of the Rock called Peter.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

True you do Fred, and I follow the Rock that is Christ Jesus. The same spiritual Rock that is written of in scripture that all did drink and eat upon. The spiritaul Rock that is with us today and always.

1 Corinthians 10:3-4 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

I hear the voice of Christ, and choice to follow HIM. I want to put my heart of love and trust in Christ.

By the mouth of our Lord, and Saviour Jesus Christ he tells us that he beheld Peter, and said in scripture thou shalt be call Cephas, which was said to be A stone.

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

There is no other Rock then Christ Jesus. Those that go through heavens gate shall sing the song of Moses (Revelation 15:3) The song of Moses is written of in (Deu 32) if anyone cares to read of it.

That is the difference between what we follow by choice

~in Christ

Interesting that you should call our attention to 1 Cor 10:1-4; St. Chrysostom writes passionately about these verses. The importance he places on the Font (Fountain) is that it spews forth the refreshing graces of Christ, “For as you eat the Lord's Body, so they the manna: and as you drink the Blood, so they water from a rock.” The Holy Table is set before you.


1 Corinthians 10:1-4

For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant.

Now this he said, implying that they were not very well instructed in these things. And what is this which you would not have us ignorant of?

That our fathers, says he, were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink; for they drank of a spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ. Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased.

And wherefore says he these things? To point out that as they were nothing profited by the enjoyment of so great a gift, so neither these by obtaining Baptism and partaking of spiritual Mysteries, except they go on and show forth a life worthy of this grace. Wherefore also he introduces the types both of Baptism and of the Mysteries.

But what is, They were baptized into Moses? Like as we, on our belief in Christ and His resurrection, are baptized, as being destined in our own persons to partake in the same mysteries; for, we are baptized, says he, for the dead, i.e., for our own bodies; even so they putting confidence in Moses, i.e., having seen him cross first, ventured also themselves into the waters. But because he wishes to bring the Type near the Truth; he speaks it not thus, but uses the terms of the Truth even concerning the Type.

Further: this was a symbol of the Font, and that which follows, of the Holy Table. For as you eat the Lord's Body, so they the manna: and as you drink the Blood, so they water from a rock. For though they were things of sense which were produced, yet were they spiritually exhibited, not according to the order of nature, but according to the gracious intention of the gift, and together with the body nourished also the soul, leading it unto faith. On this account, you see, touching the food he made no remark, for it was entirely different, not in mode only but in nature also; (for it was manna;) but respecting the drink, since the manner only of the supply was extraordinary and required proof, therefore having said that they drank the same spiritual drink, he added, for they drank of a spiritual Rock that followed them, and he subjoined, and the Rock was Christ. For it was not the nature of the rock which sent forth the water, (such is his meaning,) else would it as well have gushed out before this time: but another sort of Rock, a spiritual One, performed the whole, even Christ who was everywhere with them and wrought all the wonders. For on this account he said, that followed them.

Perceivest thou the wisdom of Paul, how in both cases he points cut Him as the Giver, and thereby brings the Type near to the Truth? For He who set those things before them, says he, the same also has prepared this our Table: and the same Person both brought them through the sea and you through Baptism; and before them set manna, but before you His Body and Blood.

4. As touching His gift then, such is the case: now let us observe also what follows, and consider, whether when they showed themselves unworthy of the gift, He spared them. Nay, this you can not say. Wherefore also he added, Howbeit with most of them God was not well-pleased; although He had honored them with so great honor. Yea, it profited them nothing, but most of them perished. The truth is, they all perished, but that he might not seem to prophesy total destruction to these also, therefore he said, most of them. And yet they were innumerable, but their number profited them nothing: and these were all so many tokens of love; but not even did this profit them, inasmuch as they did not themselves show forth the fruits of love.

Thus, since most men disbelieve the things said of hell, as not being present nor in sight; he alleges the things heretofore done as a proof that God does punish all who sin, even though He have bestowed innumerable benefits upon them: for if you disbelieve the things to come, so he speaks, yet surely the things that are past ye will not disbelieve. Consider, for example, how great benefits He bestowed on them: from Egypt and the slavery there He set them free, the sea He made their path, from heaven he brought down manna, from beneath He sent forth strange and marvellous fountains of waters; He was with them every where, doing wonders and fencing them in on every side: nevertheless since they showed forth nothing worthy of this gift, He spared them not, but destroyed them all. Chrysostom, Homilies on First Corinthians, Homily 23 CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 23 on First Corinthians (Chrysostom) (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/220123.htm)

Look to the Word of God, search for wisdom that is the knowledge scripture offers. There is such a thing of man's doctrine for those who do not read, and instead depend upon others to read for them.

Sndbay, you have skirted the main point in my post and instead have narrowed your answer to a minor detail.

So I will rephrase my question to make it abundantly clear what I am asking.

How is it that two people, who read the Bible and do not just depend upon others to read for them, can come to completely opposite understandings of what a passage means if as you believe


The result of interpretation for everyone is given from the Holy Spirit, and therefore the will of God.

This is not a hypothetical situation but one that I find myself in with a good friend of mine.

God is Truth and yet according to you it is His Will that either my friend or me believes in a falsehood!

Sndbay, you have skirted the main point in my post and instead have narrowed your answer to a minor detail.

So I will rephrase my question to make it abundantly clear what I am asking.

How is it that two people, who read the Bible and do not just depend upon others to read for them, can come to completely opposite understandings of what a passage means if as you believe



This is not a hypothetical situation but one that I find myself in with a good friend of mine.

God is Truth and yet according to you it is His Will that either my friend or me believes in a falsehood!

I think the answer can be found in what as become known as 'the ordinary language-school'.
I am thinking in particular of Wittgenstein. Basically Wittgenstein abandoned his earlier works when he came to the realization that the search for a perfect language which accurately reflected the world could not be realized. We have no choice, we can only think in the language that we have available to us. If this language contains anomalies and is inconsistent then we are inconsistent with our interpretation of any given works.

To quote Wittgenstein,'Language is a labyrinth of paths. You approach from one side and know your way about; you approach the same place from another side and you no longer know your way'.

God has a message for us but he can only give it to us through language. Because language is far from perfect and because we are far from perfect when we wish to interpret language we often come up with different answers to the same question.

It is often the fault of language and not so much as the fault individuals which I am sure is the case here.

When I talked about the anomalies of language perhaps I should have included an example.

Let us look at this example.

'He was destined to pick up an infection while working there'

Does this mean:-

(A) Because of his disregard for hygiene in general he was destined to pick up an infection.

(B) He is usually careful with matters of hygiene, but because of circumstances beyond his control he was destined to pick up an infection.

Which is correct? Answer If I don't provide you with any more information then you can argue till the cows come home.

We can also look at it this way as well.

Even though things can come to people through religious insight, they still have to put it into language. In other words we/they still have to 'walk the labyrinth of language paths'

Tut,
That was very interesting. Thanks.

Joe Thanks much for posting that.
Fred

How is it that two people, who read the Bible and do not just depend upon others to read for them, can come to completely opposite understandings of what a passage means.

I think that ‘Wise Tut’ missed this by a mile. Language is far from the cause, but rather the presence of convoluted language is the symptom of the H1N1 of faith. It’s a designer virus attacking "right reasoning" since its introduction by an errant monk who started mass production in 1520. It’s defined by Catholics as liberalism; somewhat similar to the political variant. Liberalism holds, as a right, emancipation of Divine Authority and sovereignty in all sectors of life that control and judge all matters. To satisfy the liberal, God must conform His will to that of man’s. This is because liberalism true authority resides in the interior of the individual with the power to shut out God’s creation found on the outside. The philosophy proposes that "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself.” At least in part, and perhaps in some cases without realizing it, liberalism denies God with this autonomous freedom which is in conflict with the Church. Once completely overtaken by the disease, the individual finds no ‘right’, no ‘wrong’; only that which warms the interior, what feels good becomes good.

An autonomous authority requires “freedom from” morals as well as “freedom to” implement a proxy ethic independent of God’s will. As such Scriptures become subjective to the individual and different for each individual (or from group to group); thus we hear the refrain "one religion is as good as another." Faith becomes a social construct based on whether it feels right, changing from time to time depending on expediency. Discipline in faith is exercised less and less, and becomes weedy with passing time until all discipline in right reasoning is rejected. The fault seems to be that conclusions drawn from autonomous intellectual lack guidance and authority and as such judgments become rationalizations, without a foundation in an absolute truth that only the Catechism brings. Thus it can be said that liberalism becomes the program of rationalism; where “Free thought begets free morals, or immorality- Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. WHOEVER THINKS WHAT HE PLEASES WILL DO WHAT HE PLEASES (sic).”

Like viruses found in nature, there is no natural immunity, the body merely becomes accustom to invading profanation. Each variant of liberalism mutates from simple schismatic sects to complex variants completely void of any vestige of Christianity. There is however a treatment facility, a Divine hospice, the Catholic faith.

JoeT

JoeT,
You have made an excellent point.
And it is why I am an orthodox Catholic.
But politically I am somewhat of a liberal but mostly a moderate.
My Christianity insists that a laborer is worth his wages, that a hungry person needs to eat, that a homeless person need shelter and those are called liberal politiacally.
But to me they are of Christian roots.
As an orthodox Catholic I believe what The Church Jesus founded on the rock called Peter is the true Church and as the bible says the source and foundation of the truth.
So therefore what it officially teaches is the truth and all of that is based on Holy Scripture.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hello Joe T.

When you say,'Language is far from the cause, but rather the presence of a convoluted language... "

Wittgenstein is saying that all language is convoluted. English is a piecemeal language made up of many different languages that evolved over time. Like all languages it contains anomalies and for some of the time is inconsistent . There is no such thing as a 'pure language'.

I am not denying that God knows what he wants to say. But even if God revealed to someone exactly what he wanted all it takes is someone like , 'an errant monk' , to misinterpret the message. Why? (A) because he deliberately set about to do so. (B) because that's what language is all about.

Lets look at (A) and (B) in light of the core question."How is it that two people, who read the Bible and do not just depending upon others to read for them, can come to completely opposite understandings of what a passage means?"

In this case I think we can eliminate (A). I am happy to blame language for the problem. From your point of view who has the correct interpretation?. Elscarta or his friend? Assuming they have good intentions which I am sure they have.

Sndbay, you have skirted the main point in my post and instead have narrowed your answer to a minor detail.

So I will rephrase my question to make it abundantly clear what I am asking.

How is it that two people, who read the Bible and do not just depend upon others to read for them, can come to completely opposite understandings of what a passage means if as you believe



This is not a hypothetical situation but one that I find myself in with a good friend of mine.

God is Truth and yet according to you it is His Will that either my friend or me believes in a falsehood!

No the promise is if you abide in HIM and HIS word, He will abide in you.

I am positive Christ knows what is in your heart and what is in your friend's heart.

As scripture says what a man soweth, that shall he also reap. You can see results of that on this forum. Mankind have their hearts set to follow who they have chosen. No one knowns that individual heart better then Christ. I believe Christ knowns the heart of each, better then man himself .

As for me, I am willing to sow with the Word of God, and I do pray to be all He created me to be. My heart trust and believes in Christ Jesus. That He is the shepherd and bishop of my soul. I pray that God will give me the courage and strength to always remain true to HIS WIll. And I believe that is HIS Will for me as well. In the name of Jesus, in which I believe is the conquering name in power over all evil, and is the two edged sword of truth, evil can and will bow down and flee from us. So Our Father's will is done on earth as it is in heaven.

Christ searches the hearts of those that call upon HIM. The spiritual truth is that each are given according to the measure of HIS will.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

God has a message for us but he can only give it to us through language. Because language is far from perfect and because we are far from perfect when we wish to interpret language we often come up with different answers to the same question.


There is alot of truth to what you have said. and I am sure we could take one verse of scripture and find each individual can come to a different conclusion. And others will just give what they have been told or taught it was to mean.
What I trust as being true, is that you can not conclude by one verse of words what is being said. You have to go outside the box of that one verse and obtain all that is being spoken. Plus there is so much more knowledge to be found by the entire volume of the book, and it would be difficult not to include that knowledge in the conclusion.

I offer a verse in the King James Version from the book of Matthew. .

Let's ask everyone their own understanding of this verse?

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Plus this remain important to the thread question.

No the promise is if you abide in HIM and HIS word, He will abide in you.

I am positive Christ knows what is in your heart and what is in your friend's heart.

As scripture says what a man soweth, that shall he also reap. You can see results of that on this forum. Mankind have their hearts set to follow who they have chosen. No one knowns that individual heart better then Christ. I believe Christ knowns the heart of each, better then man himself .

As for me, I am willing to sow with the Word of God, and I do pray to be all He created me to be. My heart trust and believes in Christ Jesus. That He is the shepherd and bishop of my soul. I pray that God will give me the courage and strength to always remain true to HIS WIll. And I believe that is HIS Will for me as well. In the name of Jesus, in which I believe is the conquering name in power over all evil, and is the two edged sword of truth, evil can and will bow down and flee from us. So Our Father's will is done on earth as it is in heaven.

Christ searches the hearts of those that call upon HIM. The spiritual truth is that each are given according to the measure of HIS will.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Sndbay once again you skirt around the question. None of what you wrote answers my question at all. Are you deliberately trying to avoid answering the question?

Since you appear to be unable to give a question a simple straight forward answer, I will break down my question into a series of statements. For each statement I would like you to simply indicate whether you agree or disagree with it. As in one of my previous posts I will use transubstantiation solely as an example of a concept in the Bible that has been understood in two opposing ways. I am not interested, in this post, in which of the two opposing views is true.

1. God is Truth.

2. Satan is the father of all falsehood.

3. Transubstantiation is either true or it is not.

4. If transubstantiation is true then those who believe it is not true believe in a falsehood.

5. If transubstantiation is false then those who believe it is true believe in a falsehood.

6. Those who believe in the falsehood regarding transubstantiation, do so because of Satan, not because God wills them to believe in this falsehood.


Once I have your responses to the above statements I will continue with the remainder of my statements.

1. God is Truth.

God is Righteousness, the Spirit of truth





2. Satan is the father of all falsehood.

Satan is of sin from the beginning, those who sin are of satan




3. Transubstantiation is either true or it is not.

The conversion of one substance into another, yet their appearances remain the same. Would be a form of trickery, that would be performed as magic.



4. If transubstantiation is true then those who believe it is not true believe in a falsehood.

Or can not be decreased by what is not showing in appearance




5. If transubstantiation is false then those who believe it is true believe in a falsehood.

They are decreased and believe what they have been told and not in what appears the same



6. Those who believe in the falsehood regarding transubstantiation, do so because of Satan, not because God wills them to believe in this falsehood.

Individual election of choice, to disagree or agree (Free will raises the question whether, and in what sense, rational agents exercise control over their actions, decisions, choices.)



Once I have your responses to the above statements I will continue with the remainder of my statements.

Your question was:

How is it that two people, who read the Bible and do not just depend upon others to read for them, can come to completely opposite understandings of what a passage means if as you believe



Free will choice with this choice referred by ONE Faith.

Everyone won't always have the same exact understanding, although the source is in this case the volume of one Book, the Bible. Not one verse but all verses. The free will choice will vary because of the differences in surrounding influences. However we can rest in knowing Christ understands, give mercy, and we have HIS love. And Christ will aid each individual in accordance to HIS will, and the heart of each individual.

Scripture tells us some are dull of hearing, and some just are not yet of full age having reason of use in their senses that exercise discernment of right and wrong.

JoeT,
You have made an excellent point.
And it is why I am an orthodox Catholic.
But politically I am somewhat of a liberal but mostly a moderate.
My Christianity insists that a laborer is worth his wages, that a hungry person needs to eat, that a homeless person need shelter and those are called liberal politiacally.
But to me they are of Christian roots.
As an orthodox Catholic I believe what The Church Jesus founded on the rock called Peter is the true Church and as the bible says the source and foundation of the truth.
So therefore what it officially teaches is the truth and all of that is based on Holy Scripture.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

We probably agree on many more things than we disagree on. I would characterize my political views as conservative. And, you couldn't guess? You must admit this is somewhat rare among Catholics. Of course labor should be paid all the market can bear, the hungry feed and the homeless sheltered. These concerns for our follow countrymen are not exclusively liberal; rather they've been hijacked by the political left as tools to move towards socialism.

You know I'm orthodox Catholic; in fact I'm sure many here would say rabidly orthodox (if there could be such a thing). And as such I can only agree that reasoning within the discipline of the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit who found our faith in the harmonious agreement between Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition.

And, I've been meaning to say for some time that I do value your opinions. I think we see things much alike.

JoeT

Hello Joe T.

When you say,'Language is far from the cause, but rather the presence of a convoluted language....."

Wittgenstein is saying that all language is convoluted. English is a piecemeal language made up of many different languages that evolved over time. Like all languages it contains anomalies and for some of the time is inconsistent . There is no such thing as a 'pure language'.

I am not denying that God knows what he wants to say. But even if God revealed to someone exactly what he wanted all it takes is someone like , 'an errant monk' , to misinterpret the message. Why? (A) because he deliberately set about to do so. (B) because that's what language is all about.

Lets look at (A) and (B) in light of the core question."How is it that two people, who read the Bible and do not just depending upon others to read for them, can come to completely opposite understandings of what a passage means?"

In this case I think we can eliminate (A). I am happy to blame language for the problem. From your point of view who has the correct interpretation?..... Elscarta or his friend?.Assuming they have good intentions which I am sure they have.

I can’t agree with you, Tut. What I was trying to say is that many use convoluted language to hide their true motives, and their true meaning. They rationalize True and faith for their own reasons and in doing so will use misleading or inconstant language as cover. Thus, in your ‘A or B’ scenario I would pick A in the case of differing beliefs. I do think Catholic theology was deliberately misinterpreted by the ‘errant monk’ – and likely for political reasons as opposed to theological reasons.

I don’t disagree that language is imperfect and often cumbersome (especially in the written form). But, I don’t find it to be the cause for two different opinions of the same verse. This is the false argument that holds that all Christians, no matter what denomination, believe the same thing, only its expressed differently. This isn’t true. There are many fundamental differences.

JoeT

Sndbay, you appear to lack the ability to understand a simple request and to give simple answers. In my previous post I specifically asked you to state whether you agree or disagree with each of the following statements.

I expected below each statement a single word. Agree or Disagree.

1. God is Truth.

God is Righteousness, the Spirit of truth
I'll assume this means that you agree.

2. Satan is the father of all falsehood.

Satan is of sin from the beginning, those who sin are of satan
Again I'll assume that this means you agree.

As for the rest of the statements your responses give no indication as to whether you agree or disagree with them.

3. Transubstantiation is either true or it is not.

The conversion of one substance into another, yet their appearances remain the same. Would be a form of trickery, that would be performed as magic.

4. If transubstantiation is true then those who believe it is not true believe in a falsehood.

Or can not be decreased by what is not showing in appearance

5. If transubstantiation is false then those who believe it is true believe in a falsehood.

They are decreased and believe what they have been told and not in what appears the same

6. Those who believe in the falsehood regarding transubstantiation, do so because of Satan, not because God wills them to believe in this falsehood.

Individual election of choice, to disagree or agree (Free will raises the question whether, and in what sense, rational agents exercise control over their actions, decisions, choices.)

Here is a simple passage from the Bible for you to think about in light of the fact that my previous post asked you for a simple agree or disagree, that is a simple yes or no answer to each of the statements.

Matthew 5:37 (King James Version)
37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Hello Joe T,

When it comes down to it we generally agree on many points.

I may have created some confusion because I didn't put forward Wittgenstein's position very well. I suggested that language was the problem. While language is a problem Wittgenstein would say the way we use language is a bigger problem.

I think it comes down to what is know as ,'private language' versus 'public language'. By private language he means a language which is only understood by the person using it. An example might be the small child who has made up words to represent certain objects or things. As an adult we can make an educated guess as to what they are getting at.

Private language and public language is still the subject of much debate even today.

Joe,
Thanks for posting that.
We should also keep in mind that when we pray The Lord's Prayer we are asking "thy kingdom come"
When Jesus taught that to his apostles The Church had not yet been established so he was teaching them to pray for it to come along later than at that time.
Now we do have The Church, the mystical body of Christ, here on earth so that part of the prayer has been answered and continues to be so
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Fred:

I must have past this without realizing I should have commented.

The Kingdom of God is, at least in part right here on earth and populated with the Church Militant, those of us here on earth, the Church suffering, those of us in purgatory, and the Church Triumphant, those of us in Heaven.

Paul's letter to the Ephesians shows that Christ intended to leave his Kingdom here on earth in the capable hands of Peter and the rest of the Apostles. The reason is clear, it's in these verses of Ephesians where we see the depth of what John saw in Revelations chapter 1, “from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead and the prince of the kings of the earth, who hath loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father. “ (Rev 1:5,6)

Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners: but you are fellow citizens with the saints and the domestics of God: Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

These verses show the supporting elements of the Kingdom on earth, the apostles, the prophets, and Jesus Christ as the Corner stone. Even buildings today, we find the name of the owner, founder on the corner stone along with the date of completion. Some would say that Christ is the foundation on which our faith is based: and he is. But, he's the foundation in the sense of its founder, not the foundation on which the structure is bound. The Roman Church holds that Christ is the founder on which Peter the stone foundation was placed. Through God's grace, we are able to participate in the construction and occupation of the Kingdom.

In whom all the building, being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord. In whom you also are built together into an habitation of God in the Spirit.

This foundation is built on both Gentile and Jew; as well as the Apostles, the Prophets and its' founder Christ. A union “framed together”, because “being many, are one bread, one body: all that partake of one bread." (Cf. 1 Cor 10:17). A universal Kingdom of God of one root, bound together in spirit of the cornerstones purpose.

And so we say “And hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father” inherited by default from the Jews, It was from the Sanhedrin that the power transferred given to a nation yielding the first fruit, Christ (Cf Matt 21:43). This Kingdom is fulfillment of God's promise to Moses, to build a priestly Kingdom, and a holy nation. (Ex. 19:6)

The point is, while you've been waiting for the Kingdom to come, it's been just around the corner the whole time.

JoeT

Here is a simple passage from the Bible for you to think about in light of the fact that my previous post asked you for a simple agree or disagree, that is a simple yes or no answer to each of the statements.

Matthew 5:37 (King James Version)
37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

I neither yea or nay to any of your questions, nor did I swear by oath. Perhaps you should review the teaching you have referenced (Matthew 5:33)

Was your goal to use the Word of God as a stumbling stone before a sister in hope that she enter temptation? Who would hope to do so to anyone?


A Prayer to be offered:

Abba I cry that you will search the hearts of those on this forum, and help us in our works of love. Destroy the evil that waits in the hearts of some, and bring instead the joy of love towards all mankind. In the spirit of our Lord and Saviour, I ask in His name for this blessing. Amen

I neither yea or nay to any of your questions

That is the whole point! I asked you to state whether you agreed or disagreed with the listed points in my recent posting and instead of giving me a straight forward answer you once again wandered off on a tangent.

Why is it that you are unable to just tell me whether you agree or disagree with the listed statements?

Was your goal to use the Word of God as a stumbling stone before a sister in hope that she enter temptation?

What temptation is there in giving a straight forward opinion to the truthfulness of a statement?

Who would hope to do so to anyone?
If this appears so incredible to you then why are you accusing me of doing it? It is you who have suggested the above, not me! You do not know me and yet you judge me capable of doing such a thing!

Your accusation reveals much about how you view others who may have different opinions to you.

Thread discussion




Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

How would you follow Christ Jesus? Why would you follow Christ? This thread could bring attention to the amazing truth of who Christ is in our daily life.

We follow Christ by loving our enemies, and praying for them which despitefully used us. We bless them that curse us, and bear a humble heart to be merciful, as our Father also is merciful.

Why we do this is because we walk in the spirit of truth. We follow Christ because He is the Rock that delivered us from the power of darkness, and redeemed us from all iniquity. Love for Christ is what Peter was revealed, and was told Christ would build the foundation of His church upon.
" Love for Christ Jesus"

I would like to add to my earlier entry about,'public language' and 'private language'. There is strong support for language to make sense it needs to be public. That is it is used in a way that it is generally in keeping with the accepted meaning of the culture and the time.

In this thread there appears to be a large amount of disagreement as to what a world/words mean. Why the disagreement? It appears as though,'language has gone on a holiday'.

For example, if I asked someone to give me a definition of the word ,'passion' They might consult a home dictionary and come up with the answer, (1) Intense sexual love (2) Any strong emotion (3) great enthusiasm... Sorry, wrong on all three.

My fault, I neglected to mention that I meant 'passion' as used in the 17th century, not the 21st century
Sorry about the confusion.

Sndbay, once again, instead of answering questions with straight forward answers you duck and weave around the issue.

This time your last post implies that we have gone off thread. Let me explain to you how everything that I have posted is relevant to the original thread.

You asked How and Why would you follow Christ. The answer to these two questions is found in the Bible. Therefore it is important to be able to interpret the Bible correctly to determine the answers to your questions and this is where the problems start.

The Bible has and is interpreted by many different people in many different ways. This is evident by the vast number of Christian denominations in the world, and if you look closely at what each says you would find that the differences are not small and insignificant but are major and contradictory.

You have stated in a previous post that

there is no different denominations in those that walk in the Spirit of truth. This implies that you believe that not everyone is walking in the Spirit of Truth, which leads to the question of how to determine which of the many different denominations is walking in the Spirit of Truth.

You have also stated that
The result of interpretation for everyone is given from the Holy Spirit, and therefore the will of God.

It is the words which I bolded in the above quote that all my posts have been about. Since there is only One Truth, they imply that God wills people to not believe in the Truth but to believe in a falsehood.

My example regarding transubstantiation illustrated this point:

If transubstantiation is true then those who believe it is false believe in a falsehood, otherwise if transubstantiation is false then those who believe it is true believe in a falsehood. Either way there is a group of people who believe in a falsehood.

God does not will a person to believe in a falsehood for this goes against the very nature of God which is Truth.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life.

The logical conclusion to be drawn from this is that what some people interpret the Bible to mean, no matter how sincere they may think they are in that belief, is NOT the truth as God would have us know but is a lie propagated by the father of all lies Satan.

Your postings imply that you believe that you have the true interpretation of the Bible and others who disagree with you follow man's doctrine, but if you ask those others they in turn would say just as vehemently as you do that they have the true interpretation of the Bible and that you are the one who is wrong.

The only way to resolve this is to appeal to a higher authority, Jesus understood this and that is why He built His Church on Peter and promised that Satan will never overcome His Church and gave Peter authority to proclaim what is the Truth.

Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Now Peter is no longer around, so we cannot appeal to him directly, but the Church which Jesus built on him still exists. There is only one church that can claim an uninterrupted link to Peter and that is the Catholic Church!

Some argue that Jesus did not give this authority to the Church, but this implies that He has left His Church, since the time of Peter's death, without a final authority to turn to. Jesus knew that today, we need a final authority to turn to as much as the early Church did!

So the solution in deciding who is correct in their interpretation of scripture is to look at what the Catholic Church says is the Truth about it.

Hello elscarta,

I am interested in your conclusion. You say, 'The logical conclusion to be drawn from this is that what people interpret the Bible to mean, no matter how sincere they may think they are in that belief, it is NOT the truth as God would have us know but it is a lie propagated by the father of all lies Satan'

My question is how does a sincere belief end up being a propagated lie? I would have thought that a sincere belief is just a sincere belief. It may well turn out that it is a false sincere belief but that is irrelevant.

Consider this hypothetical and give me your response.

Fred Smith said in 1650 that,' Reason is a slave of the passions' (reference to my earlier post). I am going to debate this statement with a friend. It just so happens that I know that the word 'passion' has a different meaning in 1650 as to what it means today. My friend assumes that 'passions' must be the modern understanding of the word.

Clearly this debate will go nowhere because we will be talking at cross purposes. We both have a sincere belief in what we are arguing for. BUT, makes no sense to say that because my friend is wrong he was influenced by an evil outside agency.

Elscarta, sorry for breaking my question into two parts but I want to make a distinction between,'private language' and 'public language'. The above hypothetical is what I believe to be an example of public language.

I would like to also deal with private language arguments.

There are those who say that their interpretation of scripture can be proven by appealing to a higher authority. Others will say that their interpretation is correct because it is given to them through their intellect.

I would argue that both are examples of private language arguments. It is impossible to go into great detail about private language arguments because of the problem of space. However, I would argue that both positions are a little like buying 12 copies of the SAME morning paper and claiming that; (A) you know what has happened in the world. (B) you have checked the accuracy of the reports because you have read it from 11 other sources.

I would appreciate your opinion on this as well.

Hi Tut,
Firstly can you correct your post by adding the bolded word "some" as without it the meaning of my statement becomes absolute for all interpretations, not just those which are false!:eek:

I am interested in your conclusion. You say, 'The logical conclusion to be drawn from this is that what some people interpret the Bible to mean, no matter how sincere they may think they are in that belief, it is NOT the truth as God would have us know but it is a lie propagated by the father of all lies Satan'



My question is how does a sincere belief end up being a propagated lie? I would have thought that a sincere belief is just a sincere belief. It may well turn out that it is a false sincere belief but that is irrelevant.

When dealing with absolute Truth, i.e. the Word of God, then it is not irrevelant if a sincere belief is false!


Consider this hypothetical and give me your response.

Fred Smith said in 1650 that,' Reason is a slave of the passions' (reference to my earlier post). I am going to debate this statement with a friend. It just so happens that I know that the word 'passion' has a different meaning in 1650 as to what it means today. My friend assumes that 'passions' must be the modern understanding of the word.

Clearly this debate will go nowhere because we will be talking at cross purposes. We both have a sincere belief in what we are arguing for. BUT, makes no sense to say that because my friend is wrong he was influenced by an evil outside agency.

Tut, you are comparing apples with oranges. Surely you understand that Satan is anti-God not anti-Fred Smith!:p Satan does not care whether anyone agrees with Fred Smith or not or whether they have the correct meaning of the word passion but he has a vested interest in seeing that the Word of God is misunderstood.

Now I am not saying that those who sincerely believe in a falsehood in regards to the Word of God will not go to Heaven, only God can be the judge of that, but it is not irrelevant that it is a falsehood. Satan may have lost the battle for that person's soul but by progagating that falsehood he gains the souls of countless others who look at Christianity and see a divided group who hold opposing views on just about everything and decide that there is no such thing as God and Truth.

There are those who say that their interpretation of scripture can be proven by appealing to a higher authority. Others will say that their interpretation is correct because it is given to them through their intellect.



I would argue that both are examples of private language arguments. It is impossible to go into great detail about private language arguments because of the problem of space. However, I would argue that both positions are a little like buying 12 copies of the SAME morning paper and claiming that; (A) you know what has happened in the world. (B) you have checked the accuracy of the reports because you have read it from 11 other sources.


Tut, I think that I understand what you mean by private language arguments but I disagree that you can apply this to Scripture.

I do not know what your beliefs are but I start from the premise that God exists and that the Bible is the Word of God. From this it is obvious that the Bible is unlike any other piece of writing. Given its supernatural origin, our interpretation of scripture is therefore influenced by the supernatural and as such cannot be treated like any ordinary piece of writing.

The second group who say that their interpretation is correct because it is given to them through their intellect are obviously delusional as they are implying that they understand completely the influence of the supernatural upon themselves!

The first group who say that their interpretation of scripture can be proven by appealing to a higher authority are correct only if the higher authority to which they appeal is God, since scripture is His Word. Now God does not usually speak directly to us,


Jesus understood this and that is why He built His Church on Peter and promised that Satan will never overcome His Church and gave Peter authority to proclaim what is the Truth.

Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Now Peter is no longer around, so we cannot appeal to him directly, but the Church which Jesus built on him still exists. There is only one church that can claim an uninterrupted link to Peter and that is the Catholic Church!

Some argue that Jesus did not give this authority to the Church, but this implies that He has left His Church, since the time of Peter's death, without a final authority to turn to. Jesus knew that today, we need a final authority to turn to as much as the early Church did!

So the solution in deciding who is correct in their interpretation of scripture is to look at what the Catholic Church says is the Truth about it.

If the first group appeal to any other authority then they run the risk that their interpretaion may be a falsehood.

How would you follow Christ Jesus?

Obediently.



Why would you follow Christ?

Because I am convinced that He is God.

[QUOTE=elscarta;2070989



Tut, you are comparing apples with oranges. Surely you understand that Satan is anti-God not anti-Fred Smith!:p Satan does not care whether anyone agrees with Fred Smith or not or whether they have the correct meaning of the word passion but he has a vested interest in seeing that the Word of God is misunderstood.

Hi elscarta,

Apologies for misquoting you earlier. I can assure you that it wasn't intentional.

The following is about Descartes 'Evil Demon argument' It is a though experiment put forward by Descartes to develop his ideas of God through what he terms .'clear and distinct ideas' I don't necessarily agree with Descartes and I think the private language argument undermines Descartes position However, this is not the main point.

For Descartes God is a supreme being and therefore must be the source of all truth. The Evil Demon is also a supreme being and is the source of all lies and deception.

The Evil Demon is very much interested in Fred Smith in exactly the same way as God is interested in Fred Smith, but for totally different reasons. The Evil Demon wants to deceive Fred Smith IN ALL MATTERS, NOT JUST THEOLOGY. Why? Because the Evil Demon's deception is without limitations. In exactly the same way as God's love is without limitations.Basically the Evil Demon wants to make sure that Fred Smith does not arrive at "the truth" through some other means.

Fred Smith could easily be seen as Descartes in this experiment.

Descartes thinks that the idea of a perfect being could only have come from a perfect being. Therefore Descartes reasoned, there must be a God who created him, and who has implanted in him the idea of a perfect being who's nature is not to deceive. For Descartes this knowledge will allow him to perceive," the truth". If we have certain knowledge of God then this will rule out the possibility that he is being deceived.

I think you would want to say that Descartes is delusional . Was Descartes delusional? I guess that's up to those who read his works.

Obediently.


Hello DeMaria, First let me say, it is nice to see you here on the Christian forum. I've often hoped we would hear from you again.

Back to the discussion, The influence for each answer is hopefully to take in consideration the reference of what was writtten as Prophecies Addressed to Jews. Then determine why we or they would follow Christ. And how would they or we follow HIM.

The Lord spoke of man being cursed to trust man in (Jeremiah 17:5). And an added fact, that for man to reach out to man, would be putting their heart away from the Lord. This being said, how then would it be safe to put our faith in Christ Jesus, who was a man? How could we trust HIM? I would like very much to bring out the reality of what brings us forward to being converted as Christians.

I believe in what is written as the spirit of truth, and God revealed and inspired every word for good reason. And I trust every word of what God has said was meant to be acknowledge as truth.

So what further truth was revealed and inspired that is written, that does permit us to trust in Jesus. How were the Jews to know, that they do remain obedient to God's word, by trusting in this man Jesus?



Because I am convinced that He is God.

Also referenced was (Jeremiah 17:10)how our Lord searches the hearts of man to give accordingly. The assurance of our Lord being all knowing in power to our daily intentions of right or wrong.

So what convinces us of this belief?

The sharing of your studies concerning God's Word and the OT could give a better undertanding of what brought the increase of faith, and what converted the Christian.

So what further truth was revealed and inspired that is written, that does permit us to trust in Jesus. How were the Jews to know, that they do remain obedient to God's word, by trusting in this man Jesus?



This is what I would offer as further revealed and inspired truth spoken by our Lord concerning the Prophecies Addressed to Jews.

Jeremaih 33:14-15-16-17-18 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

Note that our Lord says the priests which were the Levites in that period of time, would not want a man put before HIM offering meat or sacrifice continually. The Lord planned to stop what was taking place, to bring a Lord of righteousness, a branch of righteousness, who would execute judgement,and righteousness.

The need for sacrifices would be abolished because this Lord of righteousness would deliver them from sin and unrighteousness.

Back to the discussion, The influence for each answer is hopefully to take in consideration the reference of what was writtten as Prophecies Addressed to Jews. Then determine why we or they would follow Christ. And how would they or we follow HIM.

Once again Sndbay I will ask you how do we determine the true meaning of what is written in scripture?

I think you would want to say that Descartes is delusional . Was Descartes delusional?. I guess that's up to those who read his works.

Actually Descartes was only foolish in his belief that reason can determine "the truth" (since he did not know any better), but anyone today who believes that is delusional (since they should know better). The difference is that today we have Godel's Incompleteness Theorem which states

"that the axiomatic method of making logical deductions from given assumptions cannot in general provide a system which is both provably complete and consistent. There will always be truth that lies beyond, that cannot be reached from a finite collection of axioms"

Paul Davies "The Mind of God"

Once again Sndbay I will ask you how do we determine the true meaning of what is written in scripture?

By the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and by offering the evidence of scripture that will further encourage the truth.

We know it is written that when you change the glory of God that is uncorruptible into being the image of a man which is corruptible, then God gives those up to the unclean lust of their own hearts. And when changing the truth of God into a lie, and instead serve to worship the act of what they created other then the Creator is unrighteous.
(Romans 1:21-1:25)

God Does Promise

Romans 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.


Your question has shown for a second time to be off the thread, and does not show respect to the thread questions. Can you not answer the thread question?

Hello elscarta,
I can see that you and sndbay still have unfinished business so I will make this may last entry if you like.

I don't know Godel's Incomplete Theorem . Does it mean that the premise or axiom used for a deductive process in mathematics or logic is self-evidently true? I am thinking of Descartes ' We cannot think of a being which cannot not exist' Anyway, You seem to agree that Descartes would be delusional if he had knowledge of the theorem and still held onto his belief.

The only reason I have drawn on Descartes arguments is to put forward three possibilities in relation to the question of determining the true meaning of scripture.

The possibilities are:-

(A) The Evil Demon deceives people only in matters of scripture. That is, incorrect interpretation of scripture ( As I understand the arguments so far this is your position).

(B) The Evil Demon deceives all people in all matters all of the time. He is a universal deceiver ( Could be described as Descartes position).

(C) The Evil Demon does not involve himself in any matters of language. Misunderstanding of scripture is the result of any number of problems that can arise whenever language is involved (my position).

We can rule out (B) because we both agree that knowledge of God cannot come through the intellect.( I am not completely convinced this is true, but I will go along with you).

You position seems to be that true knowledge of the scriptures comes from reading the 'correct account'.
My question is how do we DETERMINE if an account is true unless it is first process by the intellect. When we appeal to the 'correct higher authority', are we not using our intellect to determine what is being said to us?

Given this we are back at position (C).

Hello, Tut, can I ask why you have become the Devil's advocate? Scripture says he is the deceiver, there is no qualification regarding the nature of the deceipt. He is the father of lies, such a description tells you he will deceive you no matter what language you speak or how good your understanding might be, in fact, the more intelligent and reasoning you are the greater the opportunity for deception.

The greatest deception so far is that he doesn't exist, or that he is limited in the way he will deceive us. We are now at the point where we are deceived into to thinking we rule this planet, that we have the ability to alter atmospheric conditions, that our efforts can somehow undo the mechanism God has placed in motion. We have the ability to destroy ourselves and we are being deceived into doing it

Hello, Tut, can I ask why you have become the Devil's advocate? Scripture says he is the deceiver, there is no qualification regarding the nature of the deceipt. he is the father of lies, such a description tells you he will deceive you no matter what language you speak or how good your understanding might be, in fact, the more intelligent and reasoning you are the greater the opportunity for deception.

The greatest deception so far is that he doesn't exist, or that he is limited in the way he will deceive us. We are now at the point where we are deceived into to thinking we rule this planet, that we have the ability to alter atmospheric conditions, that our efforts can somehow undo the mechanism God has placed in motion. We have the ability to destroy ourselves and we are being deceived into doing it

Hello paraclete,

In regards to your first paragraph. Actually, that is not my position, it's Descartes. In fact, I generally disagree with Descartes philosophy. The reason I introduced it was to point out that the Evil Demon is limited in the way he can deceive us (your second paragraph).

It is difficult to sum up in a few sentences but I go along the Bouwsma's criticism of Descartes which says that it would be logically impossible for Descartes to be deceived on every single issue. If universal deception were a reality then he would have no understanding of the word deception.

I would suggests because you recognize we are being deceived into thinking we are universally deceived suggests there is no universal deception. If there were such a thing as universal deception then we would simply think we rule the planet and no other possible alternative would come to mind.

By the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and by offering the evidence of scripture that will further encourage the truth.


And what if two people both believe they are inspired by the Holy Spirit and offer evidence of scripture that they interpret support their position, but are contradictory to each other, what then?

In relation to my earlier posting.

(C) The Evil Demon does not involve himself in any matters of language. Misunderstanding of scripture is the result of any number of problems that arise whenever language is used.

I have been careful not to come down on one side or the other in this debate. I have just put forward a number of recognized positions.

I should make it clear that my position (C) cannot be proven correct. It is just the most likely empirical explanation. That is all that can be said about it.

And what if two people both believe they are inspired by the Holy Spirit and offer evidence of scripture that they interpret support their position, but are contradictory to each other, what then?

The Holy Spirit doesn't contradict himself

I believe what the bible says because of my logic, intellect, trust, and faith.
Is there any other way?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The Holy Spirit doesn't contradict himself

I totally agree with this but this does not answer my question, how do you decide who really is inspired by the Holy Spirit and who is being deceived? Both people believe that they are the one who is inspired and the other is being deceived!

In relation to my earlier posting.

(C) The Evil Demon does not involve himself in any matters of language. Misunderstanding of scripture is the result of any number of problems that arise whenever language is used.

I should make it clear that my position (C) cannot be proven correct. It is just the most likely empirical explanation. That is all that can be said about it.

What empirical evidence is there to support this claim? How many misunderstands of scripture have you analysed and how do you decide whether the misunderstandings are only the result of problems associated with language, rather than the influence of Satan?

I totally agree with this but this does not answer my question, how do you decide who really is inspired by the Holy Spirit and who is being deceived? Both people believe that they are the one who is inspired and the other is being deceived!

Park you ego for a while

What empirical evidence is there to support this claim? How many misunderstands of scripture have you analysed and how do you decide whether the misunderstandings are only the result of problems associated with language, rather than the influence of Satan?

Hello elscarta,

I have not had any dealing with the misunderstanding of scripture, only everyday language.

'The Evil Demon does not involve himself in matters of language misunderstanding of scripture is the result of any number of problems that occur when ever language is used'
.
This premise has two possibilities (A) True (B) False. If it is true then a empirical explanation is sufficient to explain the problem.

If it is false, then you are correct and I am wrong.

I totally agree with this but this does not answer my question, how do you decide who really is inspired by the Holy Spirit and who is being deceived? Both people believe that they are the one who is inspired and the other is being deceived!

I don't think you understand what I have shown in scripture to be the answer to your question. (Romans 1:21-25)

Individuals should not take the glory of God's Word and turn it into an argument between each other. The judge of both is our Lord. When you think the wisdom of what you hold is more wise, and attempt to over throw your friend, this is nothing more then, putting glory upon your ownself in pride.

Be accountable to your own heart, and humble yourself to rest in God's glory. And allow your friend his own path. The spirit of truth is love, and faith in God.



And I might as well say good bye to this thread because it has been sunk .

park you ego for a while

This is not a very helpful statement as it still doesn't address the fundamental issue that I have raised. So once again I will use as an example the notion of transubstantiation.

There are Christians who believe sincerely that the Holy Spirit inspired their belief that transubstantiation is false. There are other Christians who also sincerely believe that the Holy Spirit inspired their belief that transubstantiation is true.

Now you have stated in a previous post that the Holy Spirit doesn't contradict himself, which I agree with 100% so both of the above cannot be inspired by the Holy Spirit as they are in contradiction to each other!

SO once again I ask how can we decide who has been truly inspired by the Holy Spirit and who has been deceived?

Now some may say that it doesn't matter who is correct since both are sincere in their beliefs and since God judges what is in men's hearts, both are judged righteous by God but Jesus prayed the following

John 17:20-23
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Jesus wants us all to be in complete unity and this will not happen if we say that it is all right for people to have contradictory beliefs.

elscarta,

Without putting anyone on trial or in judgement of the heart of faith, the joy of discussion concerning the Word of God, is that we as Christian, love our Saviour Jesus Christ. (unity)

And that we should be in agreement to HIS steps being followed because we believe He is the begotten Son of God.

And in giving glory to our Father, the Creator that formed us, we hold to One Faith. And yes that One Faith is holding unity in that love for Jesus Christ.

We fulfill scripture in the royal law of love unto all.(No discrimination)

"I believe"
Christ told HIS disciples that HE was the bread of life, and that HIS blood was the cup of the new testament. That is why it is written by them in testamony for what was given by the inspirtation from the HOLY SPIRIT.

On the given day in testamony to establish future celebration of passover, Christ told HIS disciples this is the body and blood that you eat, and drink. That day Christ was speaking of Himself being the lamb of scarifice for Passover. The disciples were unsure of what that meant because they had not yet come to the truth of what would take place on the cross.

Luke 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Thereafter scripture speaks of eating and drinking the spiritual meat and drink in rememberance of what Christ did. It was a once and for all fulfillment, that had been promised by God, so that we could be set free from the bondage of sin.

Luke 22:19-20 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
(1 Corthinians 11:23-11:29)


We are to eat and drink with sincerity of faith and truth for what the body of Christ has fulfilled.

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Hebrew 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrew 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


~in Christ

Back on thread

Christ was the once and for all fulfillment, that had been promised by God, so that we could be set free from the bondage of sin.


Jeremiah 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

elscarta,
That is why Jesus set up His Church to be "the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth." 1 Tim 3:15
That is The Church that Jesus established appointing Peter (the Rock) as its first leader.
It is also The Church that the Holy Spirit inspired to promulgate the Holy Bible.
It Is The Church that can and has officially told the world what the Bible says accurately.
Interpretation of Scripture can only be full trusted IF officially proclaimed by The Church because it is The pillar and support of the truth.
This I firmly believe and the only source of biblical interpretation I believe to be true.
Why? Because I have faith that it is the only one with the authority from God to do so.
I feel very comfortable with that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

We acknowledge by Adam came sin which offered death with satan.
And those that believe and hold One Faith in Christ Jesus, were crucified with HIM on the cross, and buried with in HIM by One Baptism.
And so we have the resurrection of the dead.
(Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. )

If we do not believe in the resurrection of the dead, then we remain as sinners unto death with satan.
1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

The Fullness of Christ

1 Corinthians 15:22-23-24 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


Why?
1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

I answer that question of why, knowing that we are baptized buried in Christ and raised in righteousness and newness of life. (Romans 6:4)

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

2 Peter 3:13-14 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

~raised from the dead in Christ

sndbay,
Yes, true believers and followers of Jesus become new people and live in hope of life everlasting.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The message of law put in the ark of the covenant of the LORD (bears witness against the children of satan)

Deu 31:22-23-24-25 Moses therefore wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel. And he gave Joshua the son of Nun a charge, and said, Be strong and of a good courage: for thou shalt bring the children of Israel into the land which I sware unto them: and I will be with thee. And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.


Deu 31:32 And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.


The Song of Moses

Deu 32:1-4 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Deu 32:5-17 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation. Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee? Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee. When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock; Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape. But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Deu 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

Deu 32:19-28 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this. For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.

Deu 32:29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

Deu 32:30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?

Deu 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

Their vine is not the Rock known as Christ, and their field are the children of satan, the unrighteous sinner (Romans 1:29)

Deu 32:32-37 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter: Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps. Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures? To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

Deu 32:38-40 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? Let them rise up and help you, and be your protection. See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

Deu 32:41-46 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy. Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people. And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.

This law was commanded to be taught every seven years because God had command Moses to do what He commands to be done.
(Deu 31:5 Deu 31:10)



REPENT and sin no more!

Hebrew 10:26-27-28-29 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

~raised from the dead in Christ

sndbay,
That was a lot of work,
Thanks.
Fred

sndbay,
That was a lot of work,
Thanks.
Fred

The work is a labor of love for Christ Jesus, and I would do as much as God would have me to do.

Moses was the law giver, and God remains true to HIS words spoken to Moses. As it was, it is today, that God has sent the bread of life from heaven, and we that eat of the Word of God do eat of spiritual truth. And those that gather daily from the WORD of God a certain rate. God proves them as to whether they will walk in HIS law.

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Dan 9:3-4 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth. Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

Remember when Daniel prayed to the Lord, God sent to Daniel skill and understanding. Telling him to go forth in the commandment of righteousness.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Christ fulfilled all that was written, so that we acknowledge it as truth, and place our trust in HIS Way, and our Father's Will is done. Because it was given as God's grace to us, HIS love for all mankind. Grace for grace/ love for love.

John 1:7 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Follow Christ Jesus

Psalm 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

1 Peter 2:21-22 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:


1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.


Trust in Christ Jesus

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.



`in Christ

This us how and why I follow Jesus
Now I abide in faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love. Jesus demonstated
Sacrificial love for us by dying for our sins, making possible our forgiveness and restoring us to fellowship with the Father. Christ's love goes beyound the cross, everything we do and face is touched by His continuing love. Everything about us hinges on love because God,
Who is love, created us in His image, because God loves us and gives us blessings and lets us share them. God knows we need time to grow, with overwhelming choices
Makes it hard to know which way io go, but our Lord and Savior shows us our need to depend on His guiding love. I understand and believe that our deepest, innermost level,
That Gods is love. I will trust Him, yield to Him, obey Him, and serve Him wholehearedly. One of the keys to our spiritual growth as Christians is believing in
Gods love at all times, in the good and bad. Without making His love our ultimate dwelling, we cannot fully live in faith and hope. I refuse to take a step or a breath without
Remaining sensitve to" the greatest of these" OUR FATHER'S LOVE.
Though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but not have love,
I am nothing.

Love and Blessing, in Jesus Name
Maggie 3

Maggie 3,
Thank you for that very nice post.
It is heartening.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Without making His love our ultimate dwelling, we cannot fully live in faith and hope. I refuse to take a step or a breath without
remaining sensitve to" the greatest of these" OUR FATHER'S LOVE.
Though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but not have love,
I am nothing.

Love and Blessing, in Jesus Name
Maggie 3


Maggie, you speak in the spirit and fulness of Christ Jesus with a heart of love, grace for grace.
John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

WE believe in glory shown to the begotten Son of God, the Word of God that dwelled in the flesh/Christ Jesus.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Knowing full well to hear HIS Voice and to follow Christ Jesus who leads us, we Do Not reject the bread of life. Instead we hold stedfast in confedence of HIS truth and grace. Circumcised of the heart.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
~ in Christ

sndbay,
Very well said.
But I ask this, what is cut away in the "Circumcised of the heart."
Does the heart have a foreskin of sorts?
If so what is it?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
Very well said.
But I ask this, what is cut away in the "Circumcised of the heart."
Does the heart have a foreskin of sorts?
If so what is it?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Yes the foreskin would be an obstinate additude from the ( inner man / heart of man ) that would show stubbornness toward God.
Those who are circumcised would be cut off from that obstinate additude, and instead give praise and glorify God for all the great things that He has done, and has shown us.
God is the God of all, and Lord of all. We are to hold a godly fear in God, and serve Him. And always cleave to Him , and swear by His name.
( Deu 10:17-21)

1 John 2:15-16-17 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Mankind today show that their hearts are not circumcised when, they do not cleave to God and HIS name, but chose to lust over, and honour earthly images of examples. They do not believe in all that God has done, and fulfilled. Instead they chose to follow what man puts before them.

Hebrews 10:9-10 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

The World As It Is

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

sndbay,
Thank you much,
Fred

Peter inspired by the Holy Spirit said, if the weak man was examine by what he has done in good work, Then by what means was this done? The answer Peter gave was by Christ Jesus

The teaching that does not deviate from the truth, and that has restored life to us, comes by Christ Jesus.

And even Peter stood not by his own weakness, but was made whole by Christ Jesus.

Praise, and glory to Christ Jesus our Lord.

Acts 4:9-10 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by HIM doth this man stand here before you whole.

Christ Jesus is the head of all builders, and the builders are not set at higher esteen then Christ.

Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

No earthly man other then Christ can bring us life.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Praise and thankgiving to our Father, who sent HIS begotten Son Christ Jesus. The Bishop and Shepherd of our souls has made us perfect to do HIS will.

Hebrew 13:20-21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


~Grace be with you all.

sndbay,
Yes, "Praise, and glory to Christ Jesus our Lord."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Very Good post

ChildOfGod_1,
Yes indeed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred