In response to a question asked by Sndbay


Altenweg,

I am a little baffle by your statement of proof wanted. From what I have studied the religion of Deism was of the Gentiles. There were five common notions known.

1. There is one Supreme God.
2. He ought to be worshipped.
3. Virtue and piety are the chief parts of divine worship.
4. We ought to be sorry for our sins and repent of them
5. Divine goodness doth dispense rewards and punishments both in this life and after it.

What changed that idea was a theory of knowledge based on experience. John Locke who was not deist, turned the theory to natural theology and to arguments based on experience and nature.

Matthew Tinal argued against special revelation "God designed all mankind that should at all times know, what God wills them to know, believe, profess, and practice; and has given them no other means for this, but the Use of Reason. This was termed the Deist bible based on experience or human reason.

A modern definition today is the recognition of a universal creative force greater than that demonstrated by mankind, supported by personal observation of laws and designs in nature and the universe, perpetuated and validated by the innate ability of human reason coupled with the rejection of claims made by individuals and organized religions of having received special divine revelation.

Each of these even the newer interpretation have a foundation of knowing a greater force then man. Example meets that of proof in a God.

So is it that you believe there is a God, but don't believe He is a caring God? What is the reasoning behind your thoughts?


Off thread.

I believe that God created the universe, with the help of science, then he walked away. I don't believe that he bothers himself with his creation.

My reasoning is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do.

Plagues, wars, tornadoes, murder, rape, illness. Too much proof that God doesn't care about us, but has washed his hands of his creation.

Most times, when I give the reason for my belief in Deism, I'm told that the suffering is part of his great plan, that the suffering will lead to eternal life. Well, to me that's just further proof that God doesn't care. Live in hell so you can go to heaven? Where's the love in that?

As for my belief. Let me describe Deism;


Deism is a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme being created the universe, and that this (and religious truth in general) can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without a need for either faith or organized religion. Deists tend to, but do not necessarily, reject the notion of divine interventions in human affairs, such as by miracles and revelations. These views contrast with a dependence on revelations, miracles, and faith found in many Judeo-Christian, Islamic and other theistic teachings.

Deists typically reject most supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God (or "The Supreme Architect") has a plan for the universe that is not altered either by God intervening in the affairs of human life or by suspending the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources.

Want to know more?

Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDeism&ei=QxDJStyoEIb0sgPH0dWhBQ&usg=AFQjCNGBDkhHZ-lACVznGC-4pNQ2UI-5cg)

For once, Wickepedia is very accurate. :)

In response to a question asked by Sndbay


I believe that God created the universe, with the help of science, then he walked away. I don't believe that he bothers himself with his creation.

My reasoning is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do.

So in the reasoning you think God being perfect should have made us perfect? (All of Us)



Plagues, wars, tornadoes, murder, rape, illness. Too much proof that God doesn't care about us, but has washed his hands of his creation.

So even if God did make us perfect, you reason that God must keep us perfect, not allow us choices? You hold God accountable to everyone's actions? Don't place us in hope of dreams we think up, instead just restick, prohabit, and mandate to force the control?

Is this what you want?



Most times, when I give the reason for my belief in Deism, I'm told that the suffering is part of his great plan, that the suffering will lead to eternal life. Well, to me that's just further proof that God doesn't care. Live in hell so you can go to heaven? Where's the love in that?

Do you live in hell?

I won't tell you that, because I trust God does want us to be perfect. I believe God has shown us many many ways in which He can bless us, and that He has blessed us. I have three beautiful children grown who always will be the color in my life. I have traveled to many beautiful places, and experience friendly, loving people. And I have seen nature full of color in fall, white in winter, and green in summer. I can sit outside at night with a campfire, to see the sky, and feel the wind, and smell the campfire. These things are all apart of what God has given out of love. I am thankful for all.

I admit I wish that this all could be exactly the perfection that God's hand of strength would give everyone. But as I reason my freedom in choice in doing what I do, I enjoy giving my children what I feel they can enjoy. I hope and dream for them to be happy and offer them several means of fun and pleasure.

What if we have what we want, and the choice goes against what God holds as perfect? Then we are back to what God mandates as perfect.

Altenweg, I feel this is what we have now, and people do not listen to the do's and don't. God gave us the ordained law. People would not be happy any other way then what is given right now in liberty of law. What has gone wrong isn't what God wants for us, it is what we ourselves have chosen in the liberty of God's law. The liberty to love, to be kind, and not fight, rape, and steal from others is what God wants.

God's way is straight, but for us to be happy we have to all want the same love and caring ways of life. I believe that is what God is watching over us to find. And in this liberty comes the liberty of Faith and Trust God wants us to hold as HIS promise. That time will come...

In the mean time, could you get everyone to stop their sin and evil ways to do what God asks..

"It is said that God can do anything within the laws of logic. The truth of the matter is we can have no idea of what an illogical universe would look like." - Ludwig Wittgenstein.

So in the reasoning you think God being perfect should have made us perfect? (All of Us)

No, not make us perfect but surely look out for us. Getting cancer has nothing to do with being perfect, it's a disease. Why does God allow people to die of cancer? Being raped is not the fault of the victim, why does God allow it to happen? So many things that, if God really loved us and cared for us, wouldn't happen. The fact that they do happen is proof enough for me that God created the world then walked away.


Do you live in hell?

No, but then I don't expect eternal life in heaven, so my expectations are a bit lower. What I tried to say is that those that follow the bible, believe in a caring loving God, they are doing so in hopes of eternity in heaven, so this must be hell, because of all the suffering that they're willing to put up with when they believe in a God that could, according to their beliefs, end that suffering. The fact that He does nothing to end it, that would mean we are in fact in hell. Just my way of thinking.

I too have many blessings, two beautiful children, a husband that I still love, my life is good, but only because I won't let it be bad.

I've also had a lot of pain and suffering. I lost both my parents to cancer, 6 1/2 months apart, watched them suffer, lost the two people that brought me into this world, two people I loved more then I can ever explain. During that time I still believed in a Christian God. I prayed, I begged, I would have given my life, but the God of the bible didn't listen, didn't care.

When I was 5 years old I was molested by my cousin, my babysitter, this lasted for years. I prayed every night for it to stop, God didn't stop it. My mistake, I should have told my parents, human beings, because they would have seen an end to it. God didn't.

When I was 18 I was raped. Where was God then? He wasn't with me, and at that time I still believed.

No, belief in a God that cares never did anything for me. Now I believe in myself, in fighting for myself and my family. I won't count on God because it's always been clear to me that he won't do a thing for me.

I do respect your right to believe, for some people it brings comfort, peace. If that's what the bible and your faith does for you then who am I to question your right to it? But, my peace comes from knowing that I can count on myself and my family to do everything in our power not to let evil into our lives. Will I succeed? Probably not, because evil is everywhere, but I do know that when it comes to my home, I won't be sitting in a corner praying, I'll use those hands for another purpose.

What is given is given. Shall I now sit down at the feast, and declare it is not to my taste!! To what shall I comapre existence to? Non existence? Please tell me what that is, if you have wisdom.

What is given is given. Shall I now sit down at the feast, and declare it is not to my taste!?!? To what shall I comapre existence to? Non existence? Please tell me what that is, if you have wisdom.

What?

Satre speaks of the absurdity of life, existence. Why is there anything at all? Our whole state of being is gratutious! In fact it is an absurdity! We are thrown into exsitence, and then thrown out!

Wittgenstein tells us that we cannot speak of existence at all, as in order to do so, we would have to compare it to non existence, to establish what existence is. Try thinking of non existence, and tell me what you see. You will of course be thinking of something, perhaps black empty space, which does exist.

Neitzsche tells us to sing, love, hate, and create. Life resembles nothing as much as a founderd boat that may sink at any moment. One is sure that it will sink, one cannot be sure when.

Satre speaks of the absurdity of life, existence. Why is there anything at all? Our whole state of being is gratutious!! In fact it is an absurdity!! We are thrown into exsitence, and then thrown out!!

Wittgenstein tells us that we cannot speak of existence at all, as in order to do so, we would have to compare it to non existence, to establish what existence is. Try thinking of non existence, and tell me what you see. You will of course be thinking of something, perhaps black empty space, which does exist.

Neitzsche tells us to sing, love, hate, and create. Life resembles nothing as much as a founderd boat that may sink at any moment. One is sure that it will sink, one cannot be sure when.

Existence, non existence, I try very hard not to think about that, I'd rather just live in the moment.

Will I die? Of course I will. What will worrying about it do for me? I don't need an ulcer. I don't wish to spend my life thinking about my death.

Is there a heaven? I don't know. I can't say, never been there. It's a nice dream, I truly hope that heaven is real, there is hope in that. But to spend my life striving for heaven, no. I can't do that, because the only way (according to bible fearing folks) to get into heaven is to follow every rule in that man written book called the bible. A book that is so unrealistic and illogical that it still amazes me that anyone would believe that it's non fiction.

Life may not resemble anything to Neitzsche, but to me life is hope. Life is the opportunity to live, love, make your corner of the world a better place. If one constantly lives in fear of death then yes, life will not resemble anything, because you're not living.

No, not make us perfect.
As Rabbi Kushner said in his book, When bad things happen to good people, God made us perfect and then took a giant step back in order to give us free will and not force us to be His puppets. We took that free will and screwed up royally, taking all of creation down with us.

But to spend my life striving for heaven, no. I can't do that
I don't either. I already know I'm going there. No striving necessary.

the only way (according to bible fearing folks) to get into heaven is to follow every rule in that man written book called the bible.
They've got it all wrong if that is what they believe.

No, belief in a God that cares never did anything for me. Now I believe in myself, in fighting for myself and my family. I won't count on God because it's always been clear to me that he won't do a thing for me.


Altenweg,

By your own admission you reject the notion of divine interventions in human affairs, and can determine using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without a need for faith.

So let me say that I am not unsympathic to your experiences in life. I, myself have experienced the lost of my father, and my first husband by cancer. My sister, and I have both, experience sexual lust by evil gain. Both reacting in a similar determined matter to your own, in thinking it was bettter not to tell anyone.
I reason the delusion of thoughts we share, as a lack of knowledge (age fact) in what discipine for each individual should be. And that fact does give the assailant reason to think nothing will be said to stop them.

I would like reason for what has caused our public to lightly put their foot down, and treat the offensive behavior as only perhaps less then normal. What has by all previous experience shown the results of rape should be measured more lightely then the death penalty of an infant by a rape victim. Most usually this reasoning is tipped one way and the other, rather then by a straight line of discernment. (right or wrong)

Tell me by reasoning, if we gave the death penalty to the assailant would it engage a more likely assumption to not risk ing their own life?

My point being that the reasoning that you have found more comfort with rather then surrendering to the will of God, is likely to be God's all knowing ability in permitting us to reap what we have sown.

I have walked both sides of right and wrong,(we all do) and I am not proud of the hurt and pain my path has done, and has suffered. And I believe that is why we needed Christ for our forgiveness. I trust NOW in the One Baptism that gives me a conscience toward God's Will being done. And I pray to never hurt or cause pain for anyone.. that evil will bow down and flee from me.

Because by all reasoning we have all done things we are not pleased to look back on.


Altenweg, you have, and are what you believe "That God has a plan for the universe that is not altered either by God intervening in the affairs of human life "


God does permit you what your heart believes

I believe that God created the universe, with the help of science, then he walked away. I don't believe that he bothers himself with his creation.

Altenweg,

Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?

Why would he create this emmense, incredibly intricate and complex universe, and then walk away from it completely?

Why would the "Watchmaker" make the most incredible watch ever built, and never use it, look at it, check it, wind it, repair it, keep it shiny or show it to others?

That's the part that gets me most about Deism... the idea that a super-intelligent being with ultimate powers could and did create a universe, just to walk away from it after doing so... for absolutely no discernable purpose.

Elliot

Altenweg,

Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?

Why would he create this emmense, incredibly intricate and complex universe, and then walk away from it completely?

Why would the "Watchmaker" make the most incredible watch ever built, and never use it, look at it, check it, wind it, repair it, keep it shiny or show it to others?

That's the part that gets me most about Deism... the idea that a super-intelligent being with ultimate powers could and did create a universe, just to walk away from it after doing so... for absolutely no discernable purpose.

Elliot

This points to one of the questions I've raised before, namely why what we think ought to be so must be so? There are many things about the natural world that just don't seem right, that make us cringe and want to rebel. But not liking the way things are doesn't change reality. Why have so many human tragedies happened just when they did? For example, why did AIDS hit the gay community when it did destroying the lives of about half the gay men in my generation? How could something like that happen? That it seemed impossible or crazy at the time didn't change the fact that it happened.

So the point is that not liking the idea of an indifferent god, perhaps a deist version of god, has no logical connection to whether that god does or doesn't exist. Of course I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

So the point is that not liking the idea of an indifferent god, perhaps a deist version of god, has no logical connection to whether that god does or doesn't exist. Of course I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

But then this can also be applied to many of your previous statements in many other threasds regarding the non existence of a caring God. Just because you don't like the idea of a caring God who allows suffering for reasons which are beyond our understanding has no logical connection to whether that God does, or doesn't exist!

But then this can also be applied to many of your previous statements in many other threasds regarding the non existance of a caring God. Just because you don't like the idea of a caring God who allows suffering for reasons which are beyond our understanding has no logical connection to whether that God does, or doesn't exist!

I agree. Which is why I ask that the argument move beyond the childish "It just doesn't seem right" level.

But that doesn't mean you cannot ask better questions like this one of Bertrand Russell's: If you were granted omniscience, omnipotence and millions upon millions of years in which to perfect your world, do you really think the best you could come up with would be the Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan?

I found this and sent this in a message, what do you make of this article?

Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091005/sc_nm/us_italy_shroud)

But Altenweg gives as the main reason for her believing in Deism "is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do." This is at the same "It just doesn't seem right" level and so Elliot's question "Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?" is valid and needs to be asnwered.


But that doesn't mean you cannot ask better questions like this one of Bertrand Russell's: If you were granted omniscience, omnipotence and millions upon millions of years in which to perfect your world, do you really think the best you could come up with would be the Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan?

I disagree that this is a better question. It argues that an omniscient and omnipotent God should be able to create a perfect world, and since the world is far from perfect, even after millions upon millions of years, therefore an omniscient and omnipotent God cannot exist. But really what it argues is that "If the ultimate goal of an omniscient and omnipotent God is a perfect world then since the world is far from perfect even after millions upon millions of years such a God has had more than enough time to create a perfect world and therefore cannot exist."

Two problems I see with this question are:
How do we know what are the ultimate goal(s) of an omniscient and omnipotent God?
Millions upon millions of years is infinitesimally small compared to eternity so what is an appropriate time frame for achieving the ultimate goal(s)?

Millions upon millions of years is infinitesimally small compared to eternity so what is an appropriate time frame for achieving the ultimate goal(s)?That falls right into the "religion is based on faith no facts" argument. If the timeline is long enough then no one will ever the "intended" result.

That falls right into the "religion is based on faith no facts" argument. If the timeline is long enough then no one will ever the "intended" result.

Not so, I was just trying to point out that God is outside of time and therefore not subject to the same time constraints as we are. Also while it has been nearly 15 billion years since the beginning of the universe, it has not been very long that we have been able to think about God, and our relationship with God is one of the other possible ultimate goals.

I guess my point is that you can promise the masses pretty much anything if it's never going to happen in their lifetime.

But Altenweg gives as the main reason for her believing in Deism "is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do." This is at the same "It just doesn't seem right" level and so Elliot's question "Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?" is valid and needs to be asnwered.



I disagree that this is a better question. It argues that an omniscient and omnipotent God should be able to create a perfect world, and since the world is far from perfect, even after millions upon millions of years, therefore an omniscient and omnipotent God cannot exist. But really what it argues is that "If the ultimate goal of an omniscient and omnipotent God is a perfect world then since the world is far from perfect even after millions upon millions of years such a God has had more than enough time to create a perfect world and therefore cannot exist."

Two problems I see with this question are:
How do we know what are the ultimate goal(s) of an omniscient and omnipotent God?
Millions upon millions of years is infinitesimally small compared to eternity so what is an appropriate time frame for achieving the ultimate goal(s)?

Yes, I see the point. But what if the goals of an omniscient and omnipotent god are not good? What if god is not good? Then what? Are we to worship god merely because he is more powerful than anything else in our world? Are we not to hold him to the same moral standards of everyone else? If not, then why not? These are particularly important questions I recall Bertrand Russell asking but ones I see rarely addressed.

Another excellent reason to embrace deism: if god is not good but does not intervene in human affairs it really doesn't matter.

Altenweg,

Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?

Why would he create this emmense, incredibly intricate and complex universe, and then walk away from it completely?

Why would the "Watchmaker" make the most incredible watch ever built, and never use it, look at it, check it, wind it, repair it, keep it shiny or show it to others?

That's the part that gets me most about Deism... the idea that a super-intelligent being with ultimate powers could and did create a universe, just to walk away from it after doing so... for absolutely no discernable purpose.

Elliot

Hi Elliot,

Sorry that it took so long to get back to you, for some reason I wasn't getting notifications for this thread. :(

No, I don't know why God created the world and walked away. I don't even know if he did. My belief in Deism is just that, belief. Yes, it is a belief that I based on research but not research that definitely points to Deism. There is no absolute proof that my belief is right, it's just my belief.

Having said that, my answer is based on that belief, not on fact, because there are no facts, not for Deism or any other belief.

Why would God create something as wonderful as this world and then walk away? Well, he's God, a God. Why would I build a bird house and then never watch it to see who comes to use it? Because I can. Why would I start an ant farm then leave it alone to see what happens? Because I can. Creation doesn't mean love. You don't have to love something in order to create it. You don't have to nurture something after you've created it. It's a choice. My belief is that God chose to create and then leave.

There simply isn't any evidence that a loving, caring God exists. Belief in God is just that, belief. To base that belief on a man written book is at least as questionable as my belief. There simply isn't any proof.

Deism makes sense to me. I can keep the belief in God while also making sense of the hardship in this world, the lack of proof that God really does care. In a lot of ways I have the best of both worlds, but I know most of you don't see it that way.

If none of this makes sense please forgive me, I ran out of coffee this morning so I'm drinking tea. It simply doesn't have the same kick. ;)

But Altenweg gives as the main reason for her believing in Deism "is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do." This is at the same "It just doesn't seem right" level and so Elliot's question "Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?" is valid and needs to be asnwered.

My question is as simply as yours.

Why would God allow all the suffering?

No one has ever been able to answer this questions sufficiently. All I ever hear as a response to this question is that we're supposed to suffer in order to gain eternal life in heaven.

That makes no sense. Why would a caring loving God make us prove our love for Him by making us suffer?

It's a test. A cruel, impossible test. No one can hope to live up to the standards that the stories of the bible teach. No living human can hope to achieve the perfection that God apparently wants. Oh, but believe and you will be forgiven. Go to church every Sunday, confess your sins, repent for raping your neighbors child, beg forgiveness for cheating on your taxes, say you're sorry for beating your wife and all will be forgiven.

I live my life differently. You see, I only have to answer to myself and my family, to the people around me. I'm not perfect, but I don't rely on a God for forgiveness of my sins, therefore I do my best not to sin in the first place. No, I don't always succeed, but I don't always fail either. ;)

Why would God allow all the suffering?


Let me answer this question with another question. How much do you value your freedom to make your own decisions about anything and everything in your life, your beliefs, thoughts, actions etc?

Free will necessitates a world where suffering is possible, as one of the possible choices that can be made is the hurting of other people.

I'm not saying that free will is the only reason or cause of suffering, just that it is part of it.

You also have mentioned in a previous post, some of the suffering that you have been through in your life. In what way has this suffering affected you, besides changing your belief about God? Has it made you a stronger person, more protective of your family?

Let me answer this question with another question. How much do you value your freedom to make your own decisions about anything and everything in your life, your beliefs, thoughts, actions etc?

Free will necessitates a world where suffering is possible, as one of the possible choices that can be made is the hurting of other people.

I'm not saying that free will is the only reason or cause of suffering, just that it is part of it.

You also have mentioned in a previous post, some of the suffering that you have been through in your life. In what way has this suffering affected you, besides changing your belief about God? Has it made you a stronger person, more protective of your family?

My suffering has made me a hard person in many ways. I've put a protective shell around my heart that very few can penetrate. Sadly, I've been told I'm not as tough as I think I am.

The only thing that my suffering has done is made me weary of everything around me. My daughter is 7 years old now, two years older then I was when I was molested. My husband and I don't go out without the kids, there's only one person I trust to watch them and he lives 1 hour away and works most weekends. I'm overly protective in a lot of ways, but I know what monsters lurk in shadows, I won't allow myself to let my guard down. No one is above suspicion, I will not let my children become victims.

I know that one day I will die of cancer. It's inevitable. The sad thing is, both my husband and I have passed those genes to our kids. Both sets of parents died of this disease and it's likely my children will lose their parents to this disease as well.

Yes, my suffering has made me stronger, but I wouldn't wish that "strength" on anyone. What I learned is the worst lesson of all. I found the strength to survive, because I had to, but I'm not a better person for it, not at all.

We can ultimately believe anything and have right to but how can you believe without some sort of faith even if it is blind and not timed? No proof; just faith - to some it is next to impossible and so believe in the theory of logic's, facts – science and to others books and idols. Some believe in both science and universe theories. I am Catholic and I did look into other religions and found that I couldn't be anything more then Catholic in the end. Every religion has rituals, beliefs and some are wonderful to experience. I researched tid-bits into Buddhism, Hinduism, Law of Attraction, Lutheran, Christian and Spiritualist (New Movement), oh and of course the Divinity tools available by psychics (which is like Mediumship, Tarots…etc).

Just my words and thoughts to this wonderful exchange of ideas, being Catholic, and as you all know, as per the Bible, God did create the world and rested on the seventh day (Sunday or Sabbath Day – day of rest/holiness). Since Eve bit the apple then sin began (temptation). It states that we are all born in sin. If we are born sinful then so is the world we live in. God was not impressed and ended up burning a city down, condemned the wicked/pagans etc. Later he flooded the world and washed the sins of man away. After this, he said that he would never flood the world again or interfere with mankind because he loved his creation. He also made us special from all the creatures and gave us the ability to advance (we advanced technologically and scientifically) and that we each have spirit (Life after Death). We have come to the place in life we are; all the good and bad because of the mass movement of ideas and intentions. We also have our history in which we document and learn from and continue to educate new generations in hope that they will succeed where previous have failed. We all live here with purpose. We have choice.

As for God not caring, he does care, care enough not to destroy us but let us destroy ourselves. Yes, in the Catholic religion, God should be loved, respected and feared. We are destructive and unfortunately everyone gets hurt. But the pain we experience here is a test of faith it is apart of the great plan and those that suffer will not suffer but be rewarded with the promise of God - Heaven. The plagues and everything in the Revolutions can be interpreted many, many ways and our end could just be our own demise. As it goes for natural disasters…there is talk about the sun having explosions on the surface (which there is a technical name for but I am NO scientist), earth shifting, poles melting, us utilizing natural resources (jungles, forests, coal, oil, crops – land) the ozone layer being depleted because of garbage, pollution and testing nuclear bombs? The Gay community was plagued by AIDS, the general public was plagued by AIDS, expecting mothers, those committing in unnatural sex (bestiality, child molestation, prostitution…everything) all mankind is infected by STI's and AID's and every other plague because of these sins and because we are at the bottom of the food chain (after viruses)…and Because of God? Or because of us as mankind? Look at T.V. Jerry Springer, Maury Povich, Steve Wilkos…and so on and so on…why shouldn't we be destroyed? We even thrive off other peoples failures! But still there are some very wonderful things about our world and that is what we should all focus on and preserve. Like a expectant mother, giving life, a flower blooming in the spring, the compassion, family and good people. It looks really bleak but there is good. God exists in you if you believe he does…have faith that he does. He also exists if you do and live honestly…that is the proof – the good in us; the beauty of the world around us physically and how much joy and peace we feel just from one moment... maybe a moment you will carry with you and go to when things just are not going right... its the one experience that keeps you going. But God does know we are doomed... the beauty of it is his patience and ability to forgive as well as our ability to repent and reject sin.

As it goes for the concept of “what if the goals of an omniscient and omnipotent god are not good? What if god is not good? Then what?” It is not the goals of God but the goals of man. Here we can choose to follow the Laws of God but we have no choice but to follow the Law of Man. We are always trying to invent, make life easy, advance technologically, learn, evolve and experience the world and the universe and thus equip ourselves with knowledge tools (space rockets) to obtain the means of understanding our world and that surrounding it. It is the documented history of technology, wars, hardships, misunderstandings or human error, intelligence versus the ego and hate (which is actually fear) which leads to religious debates, genocide, racists, sexists, wars, politics, law, law enforcement, control and weapons. I kind of lean to the fact that we are trying to create a perfect world but we fail to look at the fact that being imperfect is a beautiful thing…look at everything we can share and learn. I don't know…maybe I am out of line, I just like to point out our own flaws instead of blaming someone, something or everything or anything for our mistakes.

As it goes for the “Book”, honestly, it is listed in time line from apostles to profits, to people like you and me that tell a story. Could it have been based on facts? Or has it been told so many times that is changed from Old to New Testament and Revised? Should we believe? Has the truth been lost? What validation do we need? Where did it originate from and why? We could ask questions or we can have faith in what is being said is true? Our choice. What I do believe is the Bible holds lessons and actually a lot of it is common sense about how we should treat each other, I go by that, but I also have a special relationship with God as well. So from each individual to another it will differ…here is another one, note that there are some remarks that are sexist in the bible like when men talk about God a woman should not discuss it between men – she should hold her tongue (this is why priests are men and not women). Also, that a man should not have sex with us when we are on our period because we are sinful then…as well as 6 weeks after birth. Eve bit the apple so her punishment is ours. Like if one person breaks man made Law then new Laws become evolved to add preventive measures - just because one person carries a gun and commits a crime an innocent, law abiding citizen can not carry a gun because of what someone else done (which of course I don't agree with carrying a gun)... maybe a bad example but I know you got the point. A lot of interesting stuff and in some way it does make sense but again, we choose. History, what a lovely concept but we are slowly getting smarter…that is if we stop being driven by fear and take responsibility. We know that is the impossible.

So as brothers and sisters we should believe and have faith in God, even a deist believes in something – it might not be the Virgin Mary or Jesus Christ but you believe in God. If he created the Universe and everything in it, you, then you should believe in him and trust that he will not destroy something he created nor ignore it…he will and has endowed us to be sinful and to make choices. He hears our prayers but if he solved everything for us then what could we possibly learn? What mankind does to mankind effects everyone and we are to blame ourselves. No one can tell you what not or what to believe in. Unfortunately, everyone defends their faith but we should do everything with love and compassion. Maybe religion is constructed to breed fear in misbehavior of what is morally right? But then again, people are entitled to believe and they also are entitled not to. Maybe I am an idealist or a humanitarian…my thoughts.

Yes I type really fast :) - hehe

Why would I build a bird house and then never watch it to see who comes to use it? Because I can. Why would I start an ant farm then leave it alone to see what happens? Because I can.

Regarding the ant farm, do you know of anyone who has started an ant farm and then left them all to die from starvation as this would be the result if you were to just walk away from it? Also what would that say about the morality of the person who did it? (If you don't think it is a problem to do it to insects then imagine doing the same to mice or cats etc)

Regarding the ant farm, do you know of anyone who has started an ant farm and then left them all to die from starvation as this would be the end result if you were to just walk away from it? Also what would that say about the morality of the person who did it? (If you don't think it is a problem to do it to insects then imagine doing the same to mice or cats etc)

Of course they are going to die, they have no natural resources... we do. We where given everything for survival... poor ants they are in a glass relying on the owner to provide.

Regarding the ant farm, do you know of anyone who has started an ant farm and then left them all to die from starvation as this would be the end result if you were to just walk away from it? Also what would that say about the morality of the person who did it? (If you don't think it is a problem to do it to insects then imagine doing the same to mice or cats etc)

Okay, the ant farm was a bad example. The bird house is more apt.

Having said that, I have built a bird house, a really nice one I might add, and then walked away. I assume that birds have lived in it, they may even enjoy it. I don't know because I never checked. I built it for the birds, not so that I could nurture and care for them, but because I wanted to build it. What they do with it now that it's built is up to them and none of my concern. I'm just the creator.

In your post you seem to think that God is moral. Of course I have a problem with people who harm any living thing, except flies and mosquitos, they're fair game. ;) The thing is, your moral God hurts the people he's supposed to care about all the time. Is cancer not cruel? How about aids? Murder isn't a fun way to die but he allows it to happen. There are people starving every day, people that live on the streets, why does God allow them to die?

I'm actually being far kinder to the idea of God then you are. You see, I believe in the bird house where you actually do believe in the ant farm. The only difference is, in your ant farm he doesn't walk away, he's actually very involved, sees their pain and does nothing about it.

My suffering has made me a hard person in many ways. I've put a protective shell around my heart that very few can penetrate. Sadly, I've been told I'm not as tough as I think I am.

The only thing that my suffering has done is made me weary of everything around me. My daughter is 7 years old now, two years older then I was when I was molested. My husband and I don't go out without the kids, there's only one person I trust to watch them and he lives 1 hour away and works most weekends. I'm overly protective in a lot of ways, but I know what monsters lurk in shadows, I won't allow myself to let my guard down. No one is above suspicion, I will not let my children become victims.

I know that one day I will die of cancer. It's inevitable. The sad thing is, both my husband and I have passed those genes to our kids. Both sets of parents died of this disease and it's likely my children will lose their parents to this disease as well.

Yes, my suffering has made me stronger, but I wouldn't wish that "strength" on anyone. What I learned is the worst lesson of all. I found the strength to survive, because I had to, but I'm not a better person for it, not at all.

In death there is rebirth. I am sorry for your suffering. I have been told by many elders that the closer you are to death; the closer you become to God. Only when you can face death; you can truly live. You are truly a remarkable person.

Only when you can face death; you can truly live. You don't think one can truly live without facing death first?

You don't think one can truly live without facing death first?

Well you can live... but you can live without purpose... or you can live for the future and not today... we grope about how life sucks when we should embrace it, learn and grow from it. Until you "understand" death that you will truly appreciate the essence of life. Death not being literal because we are living and so if we must literally die before we live... then we where doomed to begin with :). But death in a sense of letting something go in order to receive the truth... enlightenment. Like death of an old idea/friendship/life change - people, place or thing only to allow for the new (rebirth) opportunity or understanding. Once we realize how fragile we actually are do we really appreciate everything we know and have come to have or understand.

Birth - Death - Rebirth

I know how fragile we are. I don't need to "to receive the truth" (which means nothing really) in order to live for today and tomorrow. If religion gives you a purpose to keep on living them that works for you. Not everyone needs that though.

The thing is, your moral God hurts the people he's supposed to care about all the time. Is cancer not cruel? How about aids? Murder isn't a fun way to die but he allows it to happen. There are people starving every day, people that live on the streets, why does God allow them to die?
This is the wrong premise that you are belaboring. God doesn't hurt. He is only Love. We have caused the hurt. We continue to cause the hurt. The universe is stuck in hurt because of us.

You said, "There are people starving every day, people that live on the streets" and asked "Why does God allow them to die?" The real question, the correct question is, "Why do we allow them to die?"

The real question, the correct question is, "Why do we allow them to die?"
Have you seen any of the US Healthcare discussions on this board? Truly disheartening. :(

This is the wrong premise that you are belaboring. God doesn't hurt. He is only Love. We have caused the hurt. We continue to cause the hurt. The universe is stuck in hurt because of us.

You said, "There are people starving every day, people that live on the streets" and asked "Why does God allow them to die?" The real question, the correct question is, "Why do we allow them to die?"

True, we can do something about the starving people, but disease, that is not of our making. Cancer is not something we can do anything about, otherwise we would.

God giving his children cancer is the same thing as the creator of the ant farm burning the ants with a magnifying glass. It's destruction. How can a loving God destroy what he claims to love?

There are many things in this world that we can change, but for things that we can't, you have to ask, why does God allow it if he really cares?

Cancer proves my belief more then anything else. At least to me it does.

I know how fragile we are. I don't need to "to receive the truth" (which means nothing really) in order to live for today and tomorrow. If religion gives you a purpose to keep on living them that works for you. Not everyone needs that though.

The concept of Birth, Death to Rebirth is anything but Religious... it is a concept. I don't recall involving religion in that particular post. Though when you talk about God it is hard not to bring up the discussion of Religion/Theories/Concepts/Science - being Deist, Catholic, Protestant or believing in the Karmic Law... whatever. In my last post I did but if you read it (which is I imagine is exhaustively long :)) you would actually see that I agree with you on what works for you works for you. No doubt you know how fragile life is... sorry if you took it the wrong way; maybe I should have said it without it being a statement? Sorry anyway it wasn't said the way you might have thought I intended it to be understood.

Peace

Everything happening around the world points us to the fact that we are here only for a little while, whether we die naturally without pain or in suffering.

Those of us who is ill, appreciates life more and values relationships more than those who think we have until we are 100 to form our bonds and show we care.

About some of our sufferings.

Famines,droughts are more common now because the whole world has been depleting the natural resources available to the whole world.
The natural world is not unaffected just because I am cutting down thousands of trees in a far far away land without replenishing whatever I take.

The rainwater,oceans,rivers everything did not become polluted on its own spreading diseases far and wide. It was our dumping of chemicals in one tiny bit of ocean at a time that has reached worldwide consequences.

Hunting,fishing in a wasteful way using methods that cause destruction to the environment has made our food chain weak.

Our greed for money has made us feed chemicals to our livestocks, crops, and this in turn has helped mutate so many diseases from our own food chain into our bodies.

AIDs and related diseases spread more through sexual activities and for those of us who are monotheists have guidelines to not take sex casually, that it be within marital boundaries.

From a monotheists view, I believe we were given guidelines on what to do and what not to do, yet we ignored all of it and went on feeding our baser selves and the consequences are not just effecting us, but everyone else who shares the very air we breathe (even that we have poisoned with our own doings ).

Have you seen any of the US Healthcare discussions on this board? Truly disheartening. :(

Yes, it truly is disheartening that so many people think that the US government is going to take care of their health care after seeing the mess that the same government has made of Medicare, Medicaid, the VA Medical System, the Native American Health System, Social Security, the US Postal Service, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, the USDA, and NASA... and pretty much every other organization that it has created. The blind faith in the government's ability and desire to help us in the face of all the evidence otherwise is very disheartening.

Frankly, it's easier to put your faith in an all-powerful G-d than it is to put your faith in an all-powerful government.

Elliot

True, we can do something about the starving people, but disease, that is not of our making. Cancer is not something we can do anything about, otherwise we would.
Of course, cancer IS something we can do anything about! God has given us brains and analytical abilities in order to fight and defeat cancer... and AIDS and CP and MS and ALS and the other letter combinations in the alphabet soup of diseases. And medical research has already found ways to lengthen the life of and even cure those who have diseases.

God giving his children cancer
God is not the source of cancer.

True, we can do something about the starving people, but disease, that is not of our making. Cancer is not something we can do anything about, otherwise we would.

Consider this, for the last 20 years world military spending has averaged around a trillion dollars each year. With the USA spending over 40% of this. Compared with this is the amount of money the USA has spend on cancer research in 2008, a paltry 5.3 million dollars.

Consider this, for the last 20 years world military spending has averaged around a trillion dollars each year. With the USA spending over 40% of this. Compared with this is the amount of money the USA has spend on cancer research in 2008, a paltry 5.3 million dollars.

But we wouldn't have to research cancer if it didn't exist. And if there was a God that cared about his creation then why would he make cancer in the first place, or the plague, or Aids, or any of the diseases out there.

This is not a man made problem, cancer is a disease and we did nothing to cause it, but we're stuck with it and people are dying on a daily basis. I'm wiling to bet that there's not one person on this earth that hasn't either lost a loved one to cancer or knows someone that has. It's hit all of us. If God really cared then why won't he put an end to it or at least give us a cure? Why? Because he walked away a long time ago and we have to fend for ourselves.

Yes, a lot of the suffering in the world today is because of choices we human beings make, but not disease.

But we wouldn't have to research cancer if it didn't exist. And if there was a God that cared about his creation then why would he make cancer in the first place, or the plague, or Aids, or any of the diseases out there.
He didn't.

This is not a man made problem, cancer is a disease and we did nothing to cause it
Of course, we did and do every day. Scientists and environmentalists are finding out more and more each day about how we poison ourselves and the result is cancer (among other problems). Plastics alone are the scourge of the earth. And who invented plastics? It wasn't God.

If God really cared then why won't he put an end to it or at least give us a cure?
Let's pretend God ends cancer and AIDS and MS and all those other diseases. Then what would you do?

Of course, it is our choices that cause disease. A month ago I was in the CCU of an area hospital. I had two bleeding ulcers and was given blood transfusions. Did God give me those ulcers? No, they were my fault.

WG, I understand what you're saying, but I have to say, both my parents died of cancer and they lived very healthy lives.

I grew up eating food grown in their garden. Neither one of them smoked, they took their vitamins, they believed in herbal remedies, not drugs, we took walks together, went camping together. They loved nature and all the things that this beautiful world has to offer. Chemicals, synthetics, they weren't a part of our lives and yet they both died of cancer.

How was this cancer their fault? This is one of the many things that haunts me. My husbands mother smoked two packs a day and outlived both my parents. She ate canned meat, store bought bread, vegetables sprayed with pesticides and never took care of herself or the world around her. My parents did, but they died. My dad was 60, my mother 63.

WG, I understand what you're saying, but I have to say, both my parents died of cancer and they lived very healthy lives.
George Burns lived to be 100, and he smoked, drank, and carried on...

Your parents didn't have to DO anything in order to get cancer. They were residents of this earth; that was good enough. Maybe their immune systems couldn't handle something environmentally unfriendly that they came in contact with, breathed in, or ate. We don't know. But to blame God is not the way to explain it.

Environmentalists say that some facial cleansers have tiny, nearly invisible, balls of plastic in them to help with exfoliation. When the user washes her face, those tiny balls go down the drain and into the sewer system and eventually work their way to the ocean where they sink to the bottom. Plankton and other small creatures eat them as they vacuum up the ocean floor, not realizing the glossy balls are not food. The tiny plastic balls don't get digested but just sit inside the gut of these sea creatures that are eaten by bigger sea creatures that are eaten by even bigger sea creatures. Eventually fishermen catch some of those sea creatures that are now carrying lots of those tiny balls inside them. Depending on where those balls have wandered inside the sea creature, humans who eat those sea creatures will also eat those tiny balls. We don't know yet the effects those tiny plastic balls have on humans, but, like other poisons we eat in the form of additives and insecticides and waste products, they probably don't help us much and may turn out to be another reason why humans get cancer.

More on plastic -- A mass of plastic garbage that is floating in the Pacific Ocean and covering an area larger than Texas is killing marine life and growing larger each day.

Frankly Green: Video: Plastic Forms Pacific Ocean Death Zone (http://www.franklygreen.com/my_weblog/2008/01/video-plastic-f.html)

And plastic is only one of the environmental concerns that cause disease.


How was this cancer their fault?
How is the cancer God's fault?

As I mentioned in my last post a paltry amount of money is spent on cancer research compared to military spending. I firmly believe that we could have cured all types of cancer by now and probably most other diseases, if research was better funded. Read the link below to see where research into cancer is heading.

2009 Nobel Prize for Medicine (http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-10-05-voa15.cfm)

But even if all disease could be eradicated we would all still eventually die. Death is part of the human condition. So why does it matter so much what the cause of death is?

Life certainly is not fair. Some are dealt Royal Flushes, while others not even a pair, but it is not the hand that you are dealt with that matters, but how you play it!

You can't blame God (or anyone/anything/situation) for all your problems or losses (if you believe in God) and I know it is hard not to be angry with him with all these things but maybe praying and trying to make the best of things is the best way to go. Cancer, AIDS and all this stuff isn't his fault - "he knows we are doomed and so is a very patient God and a very forgiving one". He knows our frustrations but again, he didn't plan it out that way, things just happen - once you stop being angry with yourself, situation and God you will find some new inner strength. I think some posts have been missed and that one which I am thinking (which I completely agree with) is firmbelievers... stop blaming God and blame Mankind.

Life certainly is not fair. Some are dealt Royal Flushes, while others not even a pair, but it is not the hand that you are dealt with that matters, but how you play it!

True, and so far I think I'm playing my hand pretty well.

Yes, I've had a lot of hardship, loss, hurt, but compared to many others I'm very lucky. I have a wonderful husband, two beautiful children, life is pretty good.

I do understand what both of you are saying, I just don't think that what you are saying points to a God that cares about the humans on this earth.

Deism still makes the most sense to me. I will always question, because that's how I am. If I find evidence that my belief is wrong, trust me, I'll rethink it. So far that evidence hasn't been found so I will continue in my belief and continue questioning that very same belief.

I'd love to have faith, truly I would, I just don't. One of the main reasons for my lack of faith is not the disease, the hardship but the bible. I will never read the bible and believe that the stories inside are real. I'm sure there's some truth in the stories, but I'm also sure those stories were extremely overblown. The men who wrote it were after all just men.

You can't blame God (or anyone/anything/situation) for all your problems or losses (if you believe in God) and I know it is hard not to be angry with him with all these things but maybe praying and trying to make the best of things is the best way to go. Cancer, AIDS and all this stuff isn't his fault - "he knows we are doomed and so is a very patient God and a very forgiving one". He knows our frustrations but again, he didn't plan it out that way, things just happen - once you stop being angry with yourself, situation and God you will find some new inner strength. I think some posts have been missed and that one which I am thinking (which I completely agree with) is firmbelievers...stop blaming God and blame Mankind.

That's just it, I don't blame God, nor am I angrey at him, because I don't believe that he is the cause of all of this.

I think you're all missing my point.

I brought up disease not because I think God created it, but because I think it's proof that God doesn't intervene in our lives.

I can't blame God because I don't believe he meddles in our affairs. I believe he created this world and then he walked away. He can't be bothered with his creation.

I do blame mankind for the disease that my parents died of. Did it hurt when they died, hell yes, and it still hurts today, but to blame God would be silly because he didn't do anything to them. Am I making my belief clear? Somehow I think I didn't explain myself very well if you think I'm angry with God. Let me assure you, I'm not, there's no reason to be.

That's just it, I don't blame God, nor am I angrey at him, because I don't believe that he is the cause of all of this.

I think you're all missing my point.

I brought up disease not because I think God created it, but because I think it's proof that God doesn't intervene in our lives.

I can't blame God because I don't believe he meddles in our affairs. I believe he created this world and then he walked away. He can't be bothered with his creation.

I do blame mankind for the disease that my parents died of. Did it hurt when they died, hell yes, and it still hurts today, but to blame God would be silly because he didn't do anything to them. Am I making my belief clear? Somehow I think I didn't explain myself very well if you think I'm angry with God. Let me assure you, I'm not, there's no reason to be.

How can you not be blaming God when you say "God created it" when he didn't - cancer is caused by all the lovely toxins we created. God DOES desert non-believers, but he is forgiving and patient (since our lives here are like a drop of water to the ocean compared to eternity).

Hey at least you believe in something and it works for you :)

How can you not be blaming God when you say "God created it" when he didn't - cancer is caused by all the lovely toxins we created. God deserts non-believers, but he is forgiving and patient.

Again, I think something was lost in translation.

My point was, if God does intervene in our lives, like theists believe, then why doesn't he do anything about cancer and other diseases?

This is why I believe that God does not intervene, because the loving, caring God of the bible doesn't make any sense considering all the disease and evil in the world.

I never said that God created cancer, that was an example of why I choose to believe in Deism.

As for God being forgiving and patient, that's what you believe and it's your right, but that's not what I believe.

So no, I don't blame God because I don't believe that he does anything for the people on this earth or against them. My posts were examples, not my belief. Do you understand?

I have an article concerning cancers. They may have found a cure ;)

Cancer Man - Forbes.com (http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/1019/forbes-400-rich-list-09-soon-shiong-health-cancer-man.html?partner=biotech_newsletter)

Just saying.

My point was, if God does intervene in our lives, like theists believe, then why doesn't he do anything about cancer and other diseases?

This is why I believe that God does not intervene, because the loving, caring God of the bible doesn't make any sense considering all the disease and evil in the world.

I never said that God created cancer that was an example of why I choose to believe in Deism.

As for God being forgiving and patient, that's what you believe and it's your right, but that's not what I believe.

So no, I don't blame God because I don't believe that he does anything for the people on this earth or against them. My posts were examples, not my belief. Do you understand?

I get it but you kind of confused me because first you say why he doesn't intervene but with that statement you said he created cancer. Isn't that intervention? That doesn't make sense…why would he create something wonderful then destroy it with viruses and diseases when he doesn't interfere? Oh and as per the bible - which you don't believe (and have a right to) it says that as soon as Eve bit the apple (Temptation) that the perfect world was born to sin - evils influence. Kind of like the Ying and Yang, Positive/Negative charges... there must be balance and you can't obtain that one without the other. I do agree that the suffering is horrible... that it is a test of faith but I do believe in God's promise. You believe you can control certain aspects of your life; you can't help for bad things happening but you definitely do your part to help and that is a greenie. You said:


Why does God allow people to die of cancer? Being raped is not the fault of the victim, why does God allow it to happen? So many things that, if God really loved us and cared for us, wouldn't happen. The fact that they do happen is proof enough for me that God created the world then walked away.

I prayed, I begged, I would have given my life, but the God of the bible didn't listen, didn't care.

I prayed every night for it to stop, God didn't stop it. My mistake, I should have told my parents, human beings, because they would have seen an end to it. God didn't.

Where was God then? He wasn't with me, and at that time I still believed.

No, belief in a God that cares never did anything for me. Now I believe in myself, in fighting for myself and my family. I won't count on God because it's always been clear to me that he won't do a thing for me.

This clearly points out that you are still angry with regression from the past. I know it isn't easy, I was a victim of sexual assault at 14 by someone who was my friend and it is horrible but it isn't God's fault for allowing it – it's that jerk that took advantage over you.


Creation doesn't mean love. You don't have to love something in order to create it. You don't have to nurture something after you've created it. It's a choice. My belief is that God chose to create and then leave.

I gave birth to two as well and just because I created it doesn't mean I am going to leave, even when they get older and make decisions (without me being overbearing – as I am protective too) without my consent – I can't control their decisions or stop bad things from happening or control any direction in their life but I can provide guidance just as God does.


That makes no sense. Why would a caring loving God make us prove our love for Him by making us suffer?

It's a test. A cruel, impossible test. No one can hope to live up to the standards that the stories of the bible teach. No living human can hope to achieve the perfection that God apparently wants. Oh, but believe and you will be forgiven. Go to church every Sunday, confess your sins, repent for raping your neighbors child, beg forgiveness for cheating on your taxes, say you're sorry for beating your wife and all will be forgiven.

Strive to be honest, abide by the 10 commandments (which seem pretty easy) and be nice to your neighbor and give thanks for what you have. Do unto others as you would like do to you. It isn't a lot God is asking but I would like to know what it is you think is so difficult about it. Life does happen and no one is perfect – we are all born sinful and God knows that. That is why he is patient and forgiving.


The thing is, your moral God hurts the people he's supposed to care about all the time. Is cancer not cruel? How about aids? Murder isn't a fun way to die but he allows it to happen. There are people starving every day, people that live on the streets, why does God allow them to die?

You point out that God does not intervene; so he isn't intervening by providing us with Cancer, AIDS, Murder, Famine – these sound like mankind issues. God can't control a murder – the person committing the crime is sinful.


God giving his children cancer is the same thing as the creator of the ant farm burning the ants with a magnifying glass. It's destruction. How can a loving God destroy what he claims to love?

There are many things in this world that we can change, but for things that we can't, you have to ask, why does God allow it if he really cares?

Ants are a bad example because they are not given the natural resources we have…if they are given the natural resources such as the ant hill in my front yard then yes they will survive. Same with the bird house…the bird house does not have the ability to sustain the birds…if a bird makes a nest to have her babies, she feeds them, guides them, then they fly away…every year the mom comes back to have more babies – the procreation and general process of life. If the nest falls with the mother and eggs because some kid knocked it off and the eggs got smashed – is it Gods fault for letting it happen or is the kid's? Does the God have control to stop a sinful child? No, your right, no intervention but for every action there is a consequence or result – maybe the eggs are food for another species and the boy felt awful about what he had done. If he doesn't and he continues to be destructive then we have punishment for people like that here – or sometime down the road good Karma will pay him back (Do on to others as you would like done to you). There is punishment whether on this plain or the next.


And if there was a God that cared about his creation then why would he make cancer in the first place, or the plague, or Aids, or any of the diseases out there.

This is not a man made problem, cancer is a disease and we did nothing to cause it, but we're stuck with it and people are dying on a daily basis.

If God really cared then why won't he put an end to it or at least give us a cure? Why? Because he walked away a long time ago and we have to fend for ourselves.

Yes, a lot of the suffering in the world today is because of choices we human beings make, but not disease.

Cancer causing agents and all other are apart of the Virus family. We have horrible immune systems and maintain the position of remaining on the bottom of the food chain since we can become susceptible. The only thing that keeps us on top is the ability to develop technology, housing, roads, Cities and weapons to maintain our position….unfortunately that does not protect us from the Virus and Bacteria family. Maybe if we didn't have casual (or other forms of immoral acts) sex less people would be infected by AIDS. Maybe if we didn't develop technology with so much radiation (even Granite counter tops) and expose ourselves to it our generations wouldn't be either. I am sure you know the answer to this: Does cancer change the molecular structure of red blood cells? If it does, is that how its passed down? Becomes a gene? My mom grew up in a small country and they lived to 90... even though now they say our lives our lengthiness - I don't agree with that... we are getting sick. What about this H1N1? Spanish flu? It sucks but it isn't God's creation; it just is. I still think if God does not intervene (as you suggest) then he would not plague us either – as that is intervention on its own.


I do understand what both of you are saying; I just don't think that what you are saying points to a God that cares about the humans on this earth.

One of the main reasons for my lack of faith is not the disease, the hardship but the bible. I will never read the bible and believe that the stories inside are real. I'm sure there's some truth in the stories, but I'm also sure those stories were extremely overblown. The men who wrote it were after all just men.

And you are entitled to believe in just that as me to my beliefs. I do agree with you that God will not intervene in mankind affairs... I just don't believe he left. Am I still missing the point? Please correct me.

I don't think you're missing the point so much as you're reading too much into what I said.

Did you read the definition of Deism that I posted in the OP? That is my belief. I believe that because, to me, there is no evidence that God intervenes in our every day lives.

I tried giving examples of why I believe this, but apparently my examples have lead to confusion. My bad.

Yes, the ant farm was a bad example, maybe the bird house was too, so I'll try again but I won't use an example this time.

My belief is that God, being a God, created (with the help of science) this world that we live in. He made the sky, the earth, the trees, the animals and he may have even put a few humans on this planet he made. After he was done he walked away. There really was no reason to stay, he gave us and his other creations everything we need in order to survive, and survive we have.

A theist believes that God cares about us, that he answers prayers, he listens to us, he loves us. To me, the state of this world is more then enough proof that he doesn't. You don't agree and that's fine. I simply can't see how a caring God, one powerful enough to create the world and everything in it, would let the people, that the bible claims he loves, suffer.

I know what causes cancer, I know that the state of the world is our doing. The people on this earth have ruined the earth, more proof to me that God just walked away after giving us this place.

I really don't know how to make it clearer then that.

I think the problem with explaining this is the fact that you are a theist. When you read my posts you read them with God in mind, with the belief that God loves you and cares for you. It's hard to understand what I'm saying because you can't fathom not believing what you do. You can't understand my belief, therefore you cannot understand my reasoning.

It's a lack of understanding because we're on two different sides of the coin.

I simply can't see how a caring God, one powerful enough to create the world and everything in it, would let the people, that the bible claims he loves, suffer.


Xoxaprilwine makes the following point regarding her two children.

even when they get older and make decisions (without me being overbearing – as I am protective too) without my consent – I can’t control their decisions or stop bad things from happening or control any direction in their life but I can provide guidance just as God does.

God "lets" people suffer for the same reason that parents "let" their children suffer when they make their own decisions as the get older. No-one accuses parents of not caring about their children or not doing enough to alleviate their suffering, so why do you use a different set of criteria for God?

God "lets" people suffer for the same reason that parents "let" their children suffer when they make their own decisions as the get older. No-one accuses parents of not caring about their children or not doing enough to alleviate their suffering, so why do you use a different set of criteria for God?

I've already answered this.

If I, as a parent, had the power to cure my child of an illness, I would. If God, all powerful, powerful enough to create the world, really was involved in our every day lives, how could he let his children die of diseases that he could cure?

I am a parent as well and yes, I do believe that my children need to make mistakes and learn from them. Some of those mistakes will cause suffering. But, if my children were about to make a mistake that could cost them their lives, you better believe I'd step in and stop them.

I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye, simply because of our beliefs. You cannot understand my faith anymore then I can understand yours.

I'm not saying you're wrong to have faith. If you have it and it brings you comfort then that's great. The thing you all don't understand is that my faith also brings me comfort, it makes sense to me. I've never seen any evidence of a God that intervenes, therefore I don't believe he does. That's just the way it is, for me.

My belief is that God, being a God, created (with the help of science) this world that we live in. He made the sky, the earth, the trees, the animals and he may have even put a few humans on this planet he made. After he was done he walked away. There really was no reason to stay, he gave us and his other creations everything we need in order to survive, and survive we have.

A theist believes that God cares about us, that he answers prayers, he listens to us, he loves us. To me, the state of this world is more then enough proof that he doesn't. You don't agree and that's fine. I simply can't see how a caring God, one powerful enough to create the world and everything in it, would let the people, that the bible claims he loves, suffer.

I know what causes cancer, I know that the state of the world is our doing. The people on this earth have ruined the earth, more proof to me that God just walked away after giving us this place.

I really don't know how to make it clearer then that.

I think the problem with explaining this is the fact that you are a theist. When you read my posts you read them with God in mind, with the belief that God loves you and cares for you. It's hard to understand what I'm saying because you can't fathom not believing what you do. You can't understand my belief, therefore you cannot understand my reasoning.

It's a lack of understanding because we're on two different sides of the coin.

I did read the definition. So, I stand and have, that if there is no proof of his influence to you then equally there is proof of his influence to others. I am sorry if I read too much into it; but maybe that's what I meant to say. Yes of course my life experience and beliefs will be equally be as responsive as yours. I don't mean to challenge you and maybe I should stay away from religious or conversations about God - hehe.

I don't think God made the world with the help of science - but that he created science and we are discovering it. We are becoming God - creating people from cells, destroying and giving life. Survival of the fittest isn't easy... neither is our ego (conscious or unconscious) - we are always battling ourselves.

This sounds bad but the reality is from the moment we are born we are destined to die. It does not matter how we die - you know a lot about death and suffering just as you know about life and love and it is true. Our bodies are constantly working for us to live and even in the times of hopelessness your heart still beats on... sometimes the power of love - keeps us alive; sometimes there is no way to help at all. Some people deteriorate physically, mentally and psychologically because of depression/stress and being alone. Maybe from life experiences... and so you believe we have the power to change that... I agree, but we can only control so much and if we are persistent on controlling things then we become the very thing we don't want to be... tired, stressed and disappointed. Sometimes for some people it is easier to give up your control to God and trust that things will work out in the end and they usually do.

I also agree that we have the power (inner strength) to change our lives/thoughts/reality by striving for it... working hard towards your goals... obtaining the fruits of your labor. So many people wait around for good things to happen but do nothing about it... your efforts are only as good as your reward. So, if the bum on the street would rather pan handle for their living expenses then work as an honest man (pending he has the ability to work) then he will not succeed... he will not have the right to say "God, why have you punished me" when in fact he could not help himself. Energy is an amazing thing... it is amazing to see what we are all capable if we just did it and gave thanks... which is what you are doing. :)

So we are horrible... but this type of thing/discussion really stimulates a healthy exchange of idea's... this is why humans don't get along - fear even fear of being misunderstood. Some countries seek war and death to others simply because of this... it isn't God, I always blame mankind for its greed and lust for land/money/unhealthy-selfish power or material assets. Regardless, whatever gives you "personal" power or hope right? I must admit I do love these talking about this and I honestly don't think I am right you are wrong or visa versa... I am enjoying the perspectives.

I don't think you're missing the point so much as you're reading too much into what I said.

Did you read the definition of Deism that I posted in the OP? That is my belief. I believe that because, to me, there is no evidence that God intervenes in our every day lives.

I tried giving examples of why I believe this, but apparently my examples have lead to confusion. My bad.

Yes, the ant farm was a bad example, maybe the bird house was too, so I'll try again but I won't use an example this time.

My belief is that God, being a God, created (with the help of science) this world that we live in. He made the sky, the earth, the trees, the animals and he may have even put a few humans on this planet he made. After he was done he walked away. There really was no reason to stay, he gave us and his other creations everything we need in order to survive, and survive we have.

A theist believes that God cares about us, that he answers prayers, he listens to us, he loves us. To me, the state of this world is more then enough proof that he doesn't. You don't agree and that's fine. I simply can't see how a caring God, one powerful enough to create the world and everything in it, would let the people, that the bible claims he loves, suffer.

I know what causes cancer, I know that the state of the world is our doing. The people on this earth have ruined the earth, more proof to me that God just walked away after giving us this place.

I really don't know how to make it clearer then that.

I think the problem with explaining this is the fact that you are a theist. When you read my posts you read them with God in mind, with the belief that God loves you and cares for you. It's hard to understand what I'm saying because you can't fathom not believing what you do. You can't understand my belief, therefore you cannot understand my reasoning.

It's a lack of understanding because we're on two different sides of the coin.

I think you've made your point very clearly, Altenweg. I don't say that I agree with it, but you have been very clear.

Where I have issue is when you say that the state of the world is such that it constitutes proof (for you) that God is not involved in the day-to-day operations of the world. The way I see it, the exact opposite is true.

Despite the fact that there is suffering, despite all the wars, hunger, strife, pain, etc. we are still here. The fact that we survived the Cold War, where two very powerful political bodies that hated each other and where both had the weapons necessary to destroy the world over 100 times each just by pressing a button... the fact that we survived that 45+ year nightmare and are here to talk about it is, in my mind, proof that there is a G-d who is looking out for us and keeping us from completely destroying ourselves.

Israel's continued existence is, in my opinion, another such proof. Despite having been attacked by 20 sepparate nations at once on multiple occasions, despite literally THOUSANDS of missile and rocket and mortar attacks every year for years on end, despite the horrific terrorist attacks against them that were the per-capital equivalent of a 9/11 attack every day for several years on end (in terms of casualty rates), despite STILL being surrounded on all sides by beligerent enemies, despite having to deal with a UN that sanctions them for their very existence... despite all the odds stacked against them, Israel continues to survive and thrive, becoming the most powerful military and economic force in their region of the world... without having any oil resources to rely on. That, to me, is proof of the existence of a G-d that is watching out for his Chosen People.

Interestingly, there is a story of a Colonel in the US Army that was Jewish. He went to the Army War College at West Point as part of his senior officers' training. While there, he participated in a class where a General was teaching strategy and tactics... specifically strategies and tactics for combat situations in which your command is outnumbered and outgunned. Naturally they went over some of the most famous battles in history... Thermopolae, Hannibal, Napoleon, and George Washington were all studied as examples of the right things to do. Custer, of course, was covered as an example of what NOT to do (as he should be). At the end of the class, the Colonel walked over to the General and asked him why he didn't use any of the famous battles fought by Israel. They ought to have been perfect examples of "forlorn hopes" that were won by the smaller military. The General took the Colonel to his office, closed the door so that nobody would hear what he said, and explained as follows: "I am a military officer. I am trained in the most advanced strategies, tactics and methods of bringing death and destruction to the enemy currently known to mankind. I have been charged by my superiors to teach these methods to you and your classmates. We do not teach about Israeli battles because no man can ever duplicate the impossible feats that Israel has accomplished in battle. Such accomplishments could only have happened through divine intervention. The War College teaches tactics and strategy. It doesn't teach miracles."

Just a story, but I think it makes an interesting point.

What you see as evidence that G-d doesn't interfere, I see as evidence that he does.

Just a thought.

Elliot

I think you've made your point very clearly, Altenweg. I don't say that I agree with it, but you have been very clear.

Where I have issue is when you say that the state of the world is such that it constitutes proof (for you) that God is not involved in the day-to-day operations of the world. The way I see it, the exact opposite is true.

Despite the fact that there is suffering, despite all the wars, hunger, strife, pain, etc., we are still here. The fact that we survived the Cold War, where two very powerful political bodies that hated each other and where both had the weapons necessary to destroy the world over 100 times each just by pressing a button... the fact that we survived that 45+ year nightmare and are here to talk about it is, in my mind, proof that there is a G-d who is looking out for us and keeping us from completely destroying ourselves.

Israel's continued existence is, in my opinion, another such proof. Despite having been attacked by 20 sepparate nations at once on multiple occasions, despite literally THOUSANDS of missile and rocket and mortar attacks every year for years on end, despite the horrific terrorist attacks against them that were the per-capital equivalent of a 9/11 attack every day for several years on end (in terms of casualty rates), despite STILL being surrounded on all sides by beligerent enemies, despite having to deal with a UN that sanctions them for their very existence... despite all the odds stacked against them, Israel continues to survive and thrive, becoming the most powerful military and economic force in their region of the world... without having any oil resources to rely on. That, to me, is proof of the existence of a G-d that is watching out for his Chosen People.

Interestingly, there is a story of a Colonel in the US Army that was Jewish. He went to the Army War College at West Point as part of his senior officers' training. While there, he participated in a class where a General was teaching strategy and tactics... specifically strategies and tactics for combat situations in which your command is outnumbered and outgunned. Naturally they went over some of the most famous battles in history... Thermopolae, Hannibal, Napoleon, and George Washington were all studied as examples of the right things to do. Custer, of course, was covered as an example of what NOT to do (as he should be). At the end of the class, the Colonel walked over to the General and asked him why he didn't use any of the famous battles fought by Israel. They ought to have been perfect examples of "forlorn hopes" that were won by the smaller military. The General took the Colonel to his office, closed the door so that nobody would hear what he said, and explained as follows: "I am a military officer. I am trained in the most advanced strategies, tactics and methods of bringing death and destruction to the enemy currently known to mankind. I have been charged by my superiors to teach these methods to you and your classmates. We do not teach about Israeli battles because no man can ever duplicate the impossible feats that Israel has accomplished in battle. Such accomplishments could only have happened through divine intervention. The War College teaches tactics and strategy. It doesn't teach miracles."

Just a story, but I think it makes an interesting point.

What you see as evidence that G-d doesn't interfere, I see as evidence that he does.

Just a thought.

Elliot

Excuse my ignorance, but why are you spelling God with a "-"?

I've already answered this.

If I, as a parent, had the power to cure my child of an illness, I would. If God, all powerful, powerful enough to create the world, really was involved in our every day lives, how could he let his children die of diseases that he could cure?

I am a parent as well and yes, I do believe that my children need to make mistakes and learn from them. Some of those mistakes will cause suffering. But, if my children were about to make a mistake that could cost them their lives, you better believe I'd step in and stop them.

I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye, simply because of our beliefs. You cannot understand my faith anymore then I can understand yours.

I'm not saying you're wrong to have faith. If you have it and it brings you comfort then that's great. The thing you all don't understand is that my faith also brings me comfort, it makes sense to me. I've never seen any evidence of a God that intervenes, therefore I don't believe he does. That's just the way it is, for me.

Yes but you can't control people, places or things at all times. His influence is in you, in me, in your neighbor right now, being a good person and committing good deeds, he is there to provide guidance not stop the dying or the wicked.

What would you learn if he solved all your problems?

How could you become stronger if there where mistakes or deaths?

To watch someone else die sometimes gives you a reason to live... to make the same mistakes or make better ones... to feed the basic human emotion. Either our experience softens us or hardens us... but that is the beauty of choice and the beauty of life. The fact of life... people are born and people die.

Yes but you can't control people, places or things at all times. His influence is in you, in me, in your neighbor right now, being a good person and committing good deeds, he is there to provide guidance not stop the dying or the wicked.

His influence isn't in me, that's your belief. People influence me, not God. No, I don't have control over others, I only have control over myself. I also don't need God in order to be a good person or commit good deeds, again, that's your belief, not mine.


What would you learn if he solved all your problems?
I don't expect him to solve all my problems, in fact, I know he won't, because I don't believe he interferes with our lives. As for what I'd learn, well, I'd learn that you're right and I'm wrong.


The fact of life... people are born and people die.
Yes they do. What does that have to do with God though?

Just a story, but I think it makes an interesting point.

What you see as evidence that G-d doesn't interfere, I see as evidence that he does.

Just a thought.

It's a good thought. :)

I've seen and been involved in things that are miraculous as well, but miracles because of God? I simply don't think that's the case.

I'm really not trying to say that I'm right. I'm not asking you all to forget what you believe and come to the dark side. ;) I'm simply trying to clarify my beliefs.

I think it's great that you look at the world and see only good in it, see God's creation and God's plan. I don't see that. Not that I think the world is bad, well, not my little corner of it.

I get the feeling that you all seem to think I'm missing out on something because I don't have your faith. Trust me, I'm not. I lead a very good life. I don't need the threat or the promise of the bible to be a good person. I also don't need a theist faith in order to be fulfilled and happy.

I found my place in this world, and I'm happy with it.

Like I said, I'll never stop questioning, and I know you have all tried to provide some answers, but what you all have said isn't anything I haven't heard before. Trust me, 10 years of Catholic school, I'm very well versed in that belief system. ;)

My original post was for Sndbay, because she asked a question that I felt deserved an answer, but I didn't want to hijack the thread we were on. This now seems to have turned into a "convert Alty" session. I know it's not being done with anything but your best intentions, I really do, but honestly, there really isn't anything you all could say that I haven't already considered.

We simply don't see eye to eye.

I've already answered this.

If I, as a parent, had the power to cure my child of an illness, I would. If God, all powerful, powerful enough to create the world, really was involved in our every day lives, how could he let his children die of diseases that he could cure?

I am a parent as well and yes, I do believe that my children need to make mistakes and learn from them. Some of those mistakes will cause suffering. But, if my children were about to make a mistake that could cost them their lives, you better believe I'd step in and stop them.

I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye, simply because of our beliefs. You cannot understand my faith anymore then I can understand yours.

I'm not saying you're wrong to have faith. If you have it and it brings you comfort then that's great. The thing you all don't understand is that my faith also brings me comfort, it makes sense to me. I've never seen any evidence of a God that intervenes, therefore I don't believe he does. That's just the way it is, for me.

Alty,

I understand your point of view that for you it does not make sense to believe a Creator who created and gave the creation rules to live by and that there are consequences for each action.

But when you compare the Almighty to a parent I think is the wrong perspective as you seem to think that a theist believes,maybe some do think of the Almighty that way,but not me.
A parent is given the gift of a child, a blessing, a duty and honor to be a parent.
And we have to make the best choices for the child not knowing what the future holds and hope for the best that it turns out all right for our children.When they suffer we wish to cure them,to make everything that is bad,wrong,ugly go away from their lives because we cannot bear to see them suffer even for a few minutes.

The Almighty as I believe is All-Knowing-which would mean that the actions of the Creator is according to the knowledge of the past,present and future of that person. When a human suffers the All-Aware Creator I believe in knows exactly what is wrong in the physical body of the person or what is right in the spiritual body/soul of the person.

When the soul of a person leaves the physical self I believe that the Creator knows exactly the state of the person's heart.Which we as the ones left behind do not know.

I remember reading about in one thread on another Topic;
About a tree falling in the forest and if it makes a sound when it falls even if there is no one around, well I believe the Creator does know exactly why it fell and the consequences of the falling tree since before it was a seed till it becomes part of the dust and more.


.

Excuse my ignorance, but why are you spelling God with a "-"?

Wow, some unavoidable points here as presented by Elliot. Simply at it's best: "What does not kill you makes you stronger" even if it is at the cost of millions…there is always a result and hope got them there.

(Maybe her fingers are long or her keyboard is broken - blame it on God!! - That was childish of me :) - there is a "child-in-me")


His influence isn't in me, that's your belief. People influence me, not God. No, I don't have control over others, I only have control over myself. I also don't need God in order to be a good person or commit good deeds, again, that's your belief, not mine.

I don't expect him to solve all my problems, in fact, I know he won't, because I don't believe he interferes with our lives. As for what I'd learn, well, I'd learn that you're right and I'm wrong.

Yes they do. What does that have to do with God though?

God gives life and God takes it away. If you believe God breeds life (then he continues to bless us today) and you believe in the destruction of life via Cancer and AIDS or other human tragedies (which in your most recent post said now that it is our fault) then I guess he takes it away too right? He is responsible for the creation and destruction because of his ignorance to mankind - he left. What does God have to do with life and death then? What has been discussed in the post is a direct result of this point - unless death from Cancer, AIDS, War, Politics, Crime, Murder, Children have not been discussed at some point? Am I lost? If you don't believe in God then this point is completely irrelevant. You believe God created it, left it and walked away. I don't believe that but you do... so be it.

I don't care about you being influenced about God - because it is not your belief but rather it is unfortunate that you are influenced by people. I think you even stated that you believe in being deist but could change your belief in that later (if you discover that it isn't correct). I also said being a good person is proof that there is good in us or take the extra "o" out which is "God".

You know he won't solve your problems because he hasn't rescued you yet. As you have had personal and very, very, very unfortunate circumstances in your life where things did not get resolved by prayer, you lost hope…and you are entitled to that. But look how strong you are today and what you can do to help someone else in a similar situation out. You still live in fear for your children. You don't believe he interferes but you believe he created the mess and just left. Fine, he isn't there – but he never helped out in the first place with these mass amount of mistakes human error has done alone.

NO, I am not right and you are not wrong - difference of opinions and beliefs... I am stating mine as you yours. You are challenging me just as much as I am challenging you; so realistically no one is better then anyone. I am enjoying this discussion very vibrantly.


It's a good thought. :)

I've seen and been involved in things that are miraculous as well, but miracles because of God? I simply don't think that's the case.

I'm really not trying to say that I'm right. I'm not asking you all to forget what you believe and come to the dark side. ;) I'm simply trying to clarify my beliefs.

I think it's great that you look at the world and see only good in it, see God's creation and God's plan. I don't see that. Not that I think the world is bad, well, not my little corner of it.

I get the feeling that you all seem to think I'm missing out on something because I don't have your faith. Trust me, I'm not. I lead a very good life. I don't need the threat or the promise of the bible to be a good person. I also don't need a theist faith in order to be fulfilled and happy.

I found my place in this world, and I'm happy with it.

Like I said, I'll never stop questioning, and I know you have all tried to provide some answers, but what you all have said isn't anything I haven't heard before. Trust me, 10 years of Catholic school, I'm very well versed in that belief system. ;)

My original post was for Sndbay, because she asked a question that I felt deserved an answer, but I didn't want to hijack the thread we were on. This now seems to have turned into a "convert Alty" session. I know it's not being done with anything but your best intentions, I really do, but honestly, there really isn't anything you all could say that I haven't already considered.

We simply don't see eye to eye.

And I will leave it at that – because that's good for you. I am sure if I posted (about being Catholic... I would get responses too :)) but you don't need to explain your beliefs to anyone.

Alty,

I understand your point of view that for you it does not make sense to believe a Creator who created and gave the creation rules to live by and that there are consequences for each action.

But when you compare the Almighty to a parent I think is the wrong perspective as you seem to think that a theist believes,maybe some do think of the Almighty that way,but not me.
A parent is given the gift of a child, a blessing, a duty and honor to be a parent.
And we have to make the best choices for the child not knowing what the future holds and hope for the best that it turns out all right for our children.When they suffer we wish to cure them,to make everything that is bad,wrong,ugly go away from their lives because we cannot bear to see them suffer even for a few minutes.

The Almighty as I believe is All-Knowing-which would mean that the actions of the Creator is according to the knowledge of the past,present and future of that person. When a human suffers the All-Aware Creator I believe in knows exactly what is wrong in the physical body of the person or what is right in the spiritual body/soul of the person.

When the soul of a person leaves the physical self I believe that the Creator knows exactly the state of the person's heart.Which we as the ones left behind do not know.

I remember reading about in one thread on another Topic;
about a tree falling in the forest and if it makes a sound when it falls even if there is no one around, well I believe the Creator does know exactly why it fell and the consequences of the falling tree since before it was a seed till it becomes part of the dust and more.


.

This is a nice perspective but she is not as easily influenced by other people as she say's and is stronger then she claims not to be :).

xoxaprilwine,
I am not trying to influence Alty,
I am just trying to tell her that not all theists think the same way about the parent-God comparison she was drawing.



.

xoxaprilwine,
I am not trying to influence Alty,
I am just trying to tell her that not all theists think the same way about the parent-God comparison she was drawing.


Trust me, 10 years of Catholic school, I'm very well versed in that belief system. ;)

She knows all about it.


My original post was for Sndbay, because she asked a question that I felt deserved an answer, but I didn't want to hijack the thread we were on. This now seems to have turned into a "convert Alty" session.

She doesn't want to hear about it anymore. She moved on. But I liked it and agree.

Excuse my ignorance, but why are you spelling God with a "-"?

Hi Sarge,

It's a Jewish thing.

In Judaism, we have a tradition to not take G-d's name in vain (meaning without a specific purpose in prayer or blessing) as a sign of respect and awe. This applies to the written word as well as the spoken word.

(The original prohibition against verbal misuse of G-d's name is from the 10 Commandments, but there is a Rabbinical component to the tradition as well, in terms of the written usage of G-d's name.)

If I were speaking to a fellow Jew, I would probably use the term "Hashem" which is not a name of G-d, but rather means "The Name" (or in Harry Potter terminology "He Who Shall Not Be Named"). :)

Since I am NOT speaking ot other Orthodox Jews, I am using the name of G-d most commonly used in the Western world. But in keeping with my religious tradition, I am not spelling out the name in full.

I have no expectation that anyone else would or should follow this tradition. Nor am I offended by anyone else who spells out the word in full as is proper in their own tradition. I follow my religious beliefs, and I am happy when others do the same for their own. So I hope that nobody will feel some sort of obligation toward me... that is most certainly not my intent.

I hope that explains it.

It's a Jewish thing.

Interesting, so it's the Western way of going about talking about it! I guess we learn something everyday! I am sorry, I guess your fingers weren't too long and your keyboard is working. :)

God gives life and God takes it away. If you believe God breeds life (then he continues to bless us today) and you believe in the destruction of life via Cancer and AIDS or other human tragedies (which in your most recent post said now that it is our fault) then I guess he takes it away too right?

God gave us the Universe and then walked away. There is no giving and taking, that's still your belief, not mine.


What does God have to do with life and death then?

From a Deist position, nothing.


You know he won't solve your problems because he hasn't rescued you yet

Again, that's your belief, not mine. You're still stuck on what you believe, you haven't listened to a word of what I've said, you've just tried to twist it to prove your point.


And I will leave it at that – because that's good for you. I am sure if I posted (about being Catholic... I would get responses too ) but you don't need to explain your beliefs to anyone.

This I do agree with. :)

She doesn't want to hear about it anymore. She moved on. But I liked it and agree.

I value our differences. It's not that I don't want to hear about it, it's that I feel I'm not being heard.

You still post as if you're talking to a Christian that just lost her way. I haven't. I'm not a Christian, I probably never will be again. I haven't lost my way, I found it and it works for me. Until I find proof that completely disproves what I believe, Deism is what I will stick with.

You keep trying to bring God into my life in your way, you still don't understand my way. Maybe you don't want to understand, maybe it's me, maybe I'm not being clear enough.

I value our differences. It's not that I don't want to hear about it, it's that I feel I'm not being heard.

You still post as if you're talking to a Christian that just lost her way. I haven't. I'm not a Christian, I probably never will be again. I haven't lost my way, I found it and it works for me. Until I find proof that completely disproves what I believe, Deism is what I will stick with.

You keep trying to bring God into my life in your way, you still don't understand my way. Maybe you don't want to understand, maybe it's me, maybe I'm not being clear enough.

So you got my last point and if your happy now then it's good. I have accepted it... because if it is good enough for you then so be it; I might be a little rigid around the corner but I guess I have my belief too :). I was trying to end the cycle of "having to prove your point and be clear" so you don't feel "Alty conversion". When I said "She doesn't want to hear it. She has moved on."... it is redundant. I am one of those that look at small details so sorry; I am just pointing out what you say and how it compiles. My intention was not to make you look lost... maybe I needed clarification.

I don't have to agree either, but we can acknowledge that the position is understood. I am stubborn because I do believe God cares, loves us, forgives us, is patient with us and will answer our prayers... just not in the way we want. You believe God created the world and left us to prosper or decay - leaving us to be on our own/making our life and living it to the fullest extent in those means. It is true that we have the power to change our lives and take ownership over it. So mankind should assume ownership over these issues brought up in this post with worldly/human matters... not God! That is all I am saying... he isn't responsible for tragic deaths, Cancer or AIDS, human wars, conflicts, crime etc. we are responsible as a global generalization and especially the tyrants committing crime (sin). Which is something you recently agreed to.

Here is an idea I would like your opinion on as a Deist: You need proof God intervenes; what proof do you need to know God even exists? Maybe nothing really exists at all. We came to be and are... so why even bring God into the equation? I read the link but still can't come up with a concept that makes sense to me in that matter. Just like you might see the Bible as not making sense - "man made stories". Only thing that does is our human history - so why blame some creator of the Universe for our problems? We see how history just repeats itself.

That's why there are scientists and idealists (philosophers) in this world - do we believe their theories because "they" exist... where did they come up with these ideas. Did everything start with an idea? If you challenge the fact that we need proof God's intervention on earth (or not) then you are challenging Gods existence in some sense right? Or no? What is the reason behind that? Do we just give idea's and concepts or theories life (or faith)(or hope)(or science) by believing in it then proving it? What if we can't prove it but know it exists in our hearts? Is it just an idea or is it real to that person? Well real to that person I guess... whatever keeps us going.

I am stubborn because I do believe God cares, loves us, forgives us, is patient with us and will answer our prayers... just not in the way we want.

I'm just as stubborn about my beliefs, which is where the problem of understanding each other begins. You can't accept my way any more then I can accept yours, but we are discussing this rationally and that counts for a lot. Most times, when religious beliefs are discussed, it becomes a fight. This conversation has not. The respect is there from both sides and that makes all the difference.


You need proof God intervenes; what proof do you need to know God even exists? Maybe nothing really exists at all. We came to be and are... so why even bring God into the equation? I read the link but still can't come up with a concept that makes sense to me in that matter.

I see no proof that God intervenes. What you believe is necessary in order for us to grow, I see as cruel. For me, if God did intervene, the world would be very different.

Why do I believe there is a God that created all of this? Because science alone doesn't explain it. Every complex thing in this world is just too amazing to have been formed without some higher power having a hand in it. I do believe God created this beautiful world. I don't think he intended for all the bad, but by giving humans free will he did seal our fate. I simply don't think that he would let this world he created come to ruin if he cared. I'm not saying he's a mean, vengeful, uncaring God, I'm sure he's a really nice guy ;), I just think he built it then left it, never gave it a second thought.


That's why there are scientists and idealists (philosophers) in this world - do we believe their theories because "they" exist... where did they come up with these ideas.

Scientist and idealist, doctors, lawyers, housewives, we're all human, fallible. We make mistakes, that's our nature. No, I don't believe every theory that they come up with, they're human, prone to error. The bible was written by fallible men. There may be some basis of truth to some of the stories in the bible. But all of it?

I'm a writer, when I write a story, even if it's based on truth, the facts often get lost. To tell an interesting story, catch the readers attention, you have to stretch the truth a little. No one wants to read about your day at the beach when you got a sunburn. Add a shark that rips off your limb and it because interesting. That's what I believe the bible is.

Trust me when I say that my decision to become a Deist was not made lightly. I was raised Lutheran, in a very loving home with wonderful parents that believed that God did love us. I went to a Catholic school which is where I started to question, mainly because of the way I was treated. You see, Lutheran girls weren't really accepted by Catholics. If I had a penny for every person, parents included, that told me I was going to hell because I wasn't Catholic, I'd be a very wealthy woman.

When I started working, I worked for a company that my dad's boss owned. His boss was a strict Pentecostal. He was very involved in his church. One day we were talking. He asked about my beliefs, why I didn't go to church. I said that I didn't find church necessary. He had to go to church, because he had to ask for forgiveness. You see, he claimed it was okay to cheat, lie, steal, rape, pillage, whatever you want, as long as you go to church on Sunday and ask for forgiveness, you're forgiven, it's all good, your spot in heaven is secured.

If there is a heaven, and I really hope there is, then I don't think going to church or reading the bible will get you there. I live my life the best I can. I'm kind, I help my fellow man, I don't cheat I don't steal, I try my best to be a decent human being, but not because I'm afraid that God will strike me down, because of course I don't think he's watching, but because that's who I want to be, it's the right way to be. I don't need a deity to be a decent human being and too many people that do worship God have shown me that bad is everywhere, religion doesn't have anything to do with decency.

Great, another book by Alty. I sure can ramble. ;)

For me, if God did intervene, the world would be very different.


Could you describe this world please.

Could you describe this world please.

Use your imagination.

You already know why I don't think God intervenes, so what do you think this world would be like?

Children wouldn't die. Women wouldn't be raped. Wars wouldn't start. People wouldn't maim, kill, hurt, molest.

Would it be paradise? Probably not, but there would be a lot less crap in the world.

I will have to write tomorrow!

xoxaprilwine can't delete this spot??

Use your imagination.

You already know why I don't think God intervenes, so what do you think this world would be like?

Children wouldn't die. Women wouldn't be raped. Wars wouldn't start. People wouldn't maim, kill, hurt, molest.

Would it be paradise? Probably not, but there would be a lot less crap in the world.

As I have asked in a previous post, how much do you value "free will"? All of the above happen because of "free will". People choose to rape, kill, maim, hurt, molest and start wars.

Say the government announced that they had developed a drug that would take away free will and make people only do good, how many people do you think would choose to take it? Would it be OK for the government to force people to take it?

As I have asked in a previous post, how much do you value "free will"? All of the above happen because of "free will". People choose to rape, kill, maim, hurt, molest and start wars.

Say the government announced that they had developed a drug that would take away free will and make people only do good, how many people do you think would choose to take it? Would it be OK for the government to force people to take it?


Right you are.. And I had that conversaion on another thread. Why scripture and God does offer the law to keep us straight. But the answer I got to doing it God's way was said to be lack of freedom. Even the thought of pray would be unacceptible if it is mandated in our minds to do.



Freedom I have to do what? Pray? Is THAT it?



May thoughts are why refuse to pray if it brings goodness? If prayer brings the intervention of blessing? Especially when you see the world around us in the solar system is made so perfectly.

It take a surrendering heart in knowing you can't do it yourself. You can goal your own actions, but you can't make the entire world follow you. (the opinion is, that pride makes someone think God's way is not the best way, instead they want freedom)


God did gives us liberty of Law, liberty to sin or not to sin.

I'm just as stubborn about my beliefs, which is where the problem of understanding each other begins. You can't accept my way any more then I can accept yours, but we are discussing this rationally and that counts for a lot. Most times, when religious beliefs are discussed, it becomes a fight. This conversation has not. The respect is there from both sides and that makes all the difference.

And I COMPLETELY concur. Isn't it nice just to discuss things :).


I see no proof that God intervenes. What you believe is necessary in order for us to grow, I see as cruel. For me, if God did intervene, the world would be very different.

Why do I believe there is a God that created all of this? Because science alone doesn't explain it. Every complex thing in this world is just too amazing to have been formed without some higher power having a hand in it. I do believe God created this beautiful world. I don't think he intended for all the bad, but by giving humans free will he did seal our fate. I simply don't think that he would let this world he created come to ruin if he cared. I'm not saying he's a mean, vengeful, uncaring God, I'm sure he's a really nice guy ;), I just think he built it then left it, never gave it a second thought.

If that's what you believe then at least you still believe there is a God. We both believe in God, just differently. Someone can challenge both of us and ask for proof that he even exists…so I can't say your wrong if it feels right for you.


Scientist and idealist, doctors, lawyers, housewives, we're all human, fallible. We make mistakes, that's our nature. No, I don't believe every theory that they come up with, they're human, prone to error. The bible was written by fallible men. There may be some basis of truth to some of the stories in the bible. but all of it?

The Bible evolves over generations to be able to make the proper associations with today's world to adapt to new ideas and concepts BUT still keeping true meanings.


I'm a writer, when I write a story, even if it's based on truth, the facts often get lost. To tell an interesting story, catch the readers attention, you have to stretch the truth a little. No one wants to read about your day at the beach when you got a sunburn. Add a shark that rips off your limb and it because interesting. That's what I believe the bible is.

There is still some truth and still a purpose – a lesson to be learned.


Trust me when I say that my decision to become a Deist was not made lightly. I was raised Lutheran, in a very loving home with wonderful parents that believed that God did love us. I went to a Catholic school which is where I started to question, mainly because of the way I was treated. You see, Lutheran girls weren't really accepted by Catholics. If I had a penny for every person, parents included, that told me I was going to hell because I wasn't Catholic, I'd be a very wealthy woman.

So you talk about being raised “Lutheran, then condoning to Catholic”. I am raised a Catholic and then later (by way of private education) taught Lutheran ways…I even sung their songs…I crossed when they didn't. I never felt inferior and I can't recall as a Catholic cussing a Lutheran. Your experience is new to me and I am sorry for that.


When I started working, I worked for a company that my dad's boss owned. His boss was a strict Pentecostal. He was very involved in his church. One day we were talking. He asked about my beliefs, why I didn't go to church. I said that I didn't find church necessary. He had to go to church, because he had to ask for forgiveness. You see, he claimed it was okay to cheat, lie, steal, rape, pillage, whatever you want, as long as you go to church on Sunday and ask for forgiveness, you're forgiven, it's all good, your spot in heaven is secured.

Well most people do think that…but you should repent for your sins and mean it. When you make a promise to God (not to do something anymore because you know it is wrong) then you must keep your promise. Breaking a promise to God has consequences too.


If there is a heaven, and I really hope there is, then I don't think going to church or reading the bible will get you there. I live my life the best I can. I'm kind, I help my fellow man, I don't cheat I don't steal, I try my best to be a decent human being, but not because I'm afraid that God will strike me down, because of course I don't think he's watching, but because that's who I want to be, it's the right way to be. I don't need a deity to be a decent human being and too many people that do worship God have shown me that bad is everywhere, religion doesn't have anything to do with decency.

I agree with that as well; we can be “spiritual”.

As I have asked in a previous post, how much do you value "free will"? All of the above happen because of "free will". People choose to rape, kill, maim, hurt, molest and start wars.

Say the government announced that they had developed a drug that would take away free will and make people only do good, how many people do you think would choose to take it? Would it be OK for the government to force people to take it?

No, because it takes our free will away :)... the Government can place it as a martial law and what then? We have no choice. God gives choice... even if bad things happen; there is always a choice. When I said "God can not control what someone does" that he can not stop anything from happening (even if good people get hurt) because the man is sinful and able to make those choices not GOD. (Example of the boy and the birds nest or Elliot's examples of War) I just don't want God blamed for these bad things... we are or the person committing such acts is. We need to take accountability... so I agree with you on that point.

I just don't want God blamed for these bad things... we are or the person committing such acts is. We need to take accountability... so I agree with you on that point.

And that's exactly my point. I'm not blaming God because I don't think he intervenes in any way. You're right, people are to blame because God doesn't interact with us, he doesn't step in, that's what I believe.

Elscarta, no, I wouldn't take a pill that takes away my free will. That's just it, I do believe that God gave us free will, a lot of it. In my opinion he built the earth and left. I still don't think you're fulling understanding my beliefs. You keep trying to put God into the equation, but for me, he was only in the equation at the beginning.

You're focusing on why I think God doesn't intervene. You're trying to come up with every argument as to why we have all the hardship in our world. You believe it's the free will God gave us, I believe it's just free will and that God hasn't had a thing to do with any of it, good or bad.

Right you are.. And I had that conversaion on another thread. Why scripture and God does offer the law to keep us straight. But the answer I got to doing it God's way was said to be lack of freedom. Even the thought of pray would be unacceptible if it is mandated in our minds to do.

You don't need scripture or God to keep yourself "straight". Not everyone that believes in God is a good person, just like people who don't believe in God aren't necessarily bad people. Prayer, the bible, those things aren't needed to be a decent human being.


May thoughts are why refuse to pray if it brings goodness? If prayer brings the intervention of blessing? Especially when you see the world around us in the solar system is made so perfectly.


You believe that prayer brings goodness. You believe that it brings the intervention of blessing. You believe these things because you believe in the bible and a God that is involved in your life. This is not a matter of "why not do it?" it's a matter of belief. Prayer is part of your faith, but not part of everyone's.


It take a surrendering heart in knowing you can't do it yourself. You can goal your own actions, but you can't make the entire world follow you. (the opinion is, that pride makes someone think God's way is not the best way, instead they want freedom)

I know I can't do it myself, but I also know that God hasn't ever helped me along the way. People have helped me, my family, my friends and myself.

Pride has nothing to do with not believing in your God. Lack of proof in the God you believe in, that's the main reason that people don't believe. It's called faith for a reason, because it requires faith of something unseen, unprovable. You believe in a book, in a feeling. If that's what works for you then great, but some people need more then that.

As for wanting freedom, freedom from what? Everyone in this world has to abide by laws and rules. No one is "free". Do you think that I really need a book to tell me that lying is wrong, that adultery is wrong, that murder is wrong? Believing in God doesn't give you a conscience, being a good person does that.


God did gives us liberty of Law, liberty to sin or not to sin.

That's what you believe, it's not fact.

Believing in God doesn't give you a conscience, being a good person does that.
God gave us a conscience when he made us. Even bad people have consciences. The bad people know what's right, but choose the wrong. Even Ted Bundy and Jeff Dahmer knew what was right.

I still don't think you're fulling understanding my beliefs.

I do understand your beliefs, Deism isn't hard to understand, but the whole point of this thread is "Why you believe in Deism". All I am trying to understand is your reasoning about why you believe in Deism.

I do understand your beliefs, Deism isn't hard to understand, but the whole point of this thread is "Why you believe in Deism". All I am trying to understand is your reasoning about why you believe in Deism.

I think I already covered that.

The thing is, my reasons aren't reasonable to you. You believe in a loving caring God, one that cares for his creation, even with all the evidence that He doesn't.

So let me ask you. What makes you believe that God cares? What has happened in your life that makes you think that God intervenes?

God gave us a conscience when he made us. Even bad people have consciences. The bad people know what's right, but choose the wrong. Even Ted Bundy and Jeff Dahmer knew what was right.

Love you WG, you know that. But I disagree. My parents gave me a conscience. They're the ones that taught me right from wrong. They're the ones that nurtured my body, my mind and my soul. God had nothing to do with it.

Most of the bad people in the world are a product of their environment, their upbringing. It's the parents that caused this, or society. God didn't have a hand in it. That's what I believe.

Love you WG, you know that. But I disagree. My parents gave me a conscience. They're the ones that taught me right from wrong. They're the ones that nurtured my body, my mind and my soul. God had nothing to do with it.

Most of the bad people in the world are a product of their environment, their upbringing. It's the parents that caused this, or society. God didn't have a hand in it. That's what I believe.
Had you been raised in solitary confinement, you would have a conscience. Your parents guided you in knowing what was (their opinion about) right and wrong, and that could have been different from what my parents taught me about right and wrong. But when push comes to shove, you already knew there was a difference.

Had you been raised in solitary confinement, you would have a conscience. Your parents guided you in knowing what was (their opinion about) right and wrong, and that could have been different from what my parents taught me about right and wrong. But when push comes to shove, you already knew there was a difference.

That I also don't agree with.

There have been studies of children that were, for all intents and purposes, raised in solitary confinement. They were either abandoned or forgotten, and because of that they did not know the difference between right and wrong. They killed in order to eat. They stole in order to survive. They could not be around human beings because they didn't know how.

I was taught the difference, that's why I know. Those children were not taught. They were born the same as everyone, an empty slate, waiting to be filled, waiting to be taught. Because they weren't taught they grew up without a "conscience".

I respect your opinion WG but I have seen too much evidence that God does not intervene. These children are the perfect example.

That I also don't agree with.

There have been studies of children that were, for all intents and purposes, raised in solitary confinement. They were either abandoned or forgotten, and because of that they did not know the difference between right and wrong. They killed in order to eat. They stole in order to survive. They could not be around human beings because they didn't know how.

I was taught the difference, that's why I know. Those children were not taught. They were born the same as everyone, an empty slate, waiting to be filled, waiting to be taught. Because they weren't taught they grew up without a "conscience".

I respect your opinion WG but I have seen too much evidence that God does not intervene. These children are the perfect example.
Of course, you have to say that, because if you didn't, your entire Deism idea would be at risk. And we would all be savages if we didn't have moral parents who taught us right from wrong?

I'm surprised in a way, though, since I'm sure you have observed your very young children exhibiting a conscience even before they were given and understood your moral teachings. "The development of a conscience begins in infancy, with the attachment that children develop with their caretakers. The bond between an infant and other caring adults creates a trusting relationship. Infants want to please these adults and act in ways to gain that approval." (Gregory Ramey, child psychologist, Dayton, OH)

Of course, you have to say that, because if you didn't, your entire Deism idea would be at risk. And we would all be savages if we didn't have moral parents who taught us right from wrong?

I'm surprised in a way, though, since I'm sure you have observed your very young children exhibiting a conscience even before they were given and understood your moral teachings. "The development of a conscience begins in infancy, with the attachment that children develop with their caretakers. The bond between an infant and other caring adults creates a trusting relationship. Infants want to please these adults and act in ways to gain that approval." (Gregory Ramey, child psychologist, Dayton, OH)

WG, your quote from Gregory Ramey seems to support the position of Altenweg. If the development of a conscience "begins in infancy", then, obviously, it's environmental - not something already put there by God.

Altenweg, your support (belief in ?) of deism strikes me equally as something not logically supportable. Why posit a God who is uninterested in his creation? To me, that position is remarkably foreign to everything we see around us - including the bad things.

Deists tend to avoid the difficult intellectual struggle with suffering by saying, in effect, God doesn't care, but you don't want to eliminate God entirely. You want to have your cake, and eat it, too.

I have no answer to these profound questions, but I wonder about mysterious things - people who have been good to me when there was no reason for them to be. The mother who gives her life for her child. The soldier falling on a grenade.

"Greater love hath no man than he lay down his life for his friend". This familiar saying has become almost a cliché, but it does point to a possible answer to the great mystery of life.

Maybe "God" has made us susceptible to this thing called love, to confound us with all our rational approaches which never seem to really work, or to never solve questions we constantly come up with.

Maybe we were never intended to fully understand life, just to live it as lovingly as possible.

WG, your quote from Gregory Ramey seems to support the position of Altenweg. If the development of a conscience "begins in infancy", then, obviously, it's environmental - not something already put there by God.
No, not environmental and not taught. The parents then work with what already is there.

No, not environmental and not taught. The parents then work with what already is there.

If you want to change your position, that's OK. But that's not what your Ramey quote said.

Read it again (what you yourself posted), it "begins in infancy". Begins! Begins means "begins".

If you want to change your position, that's ok. But that's not what your Ramey quote said.

Read it again (what you yourself posted), it "begins in infancy". Begins! Begins means "begins".
And what moral lessons are taught in infancy?

And what moral lessons are taught in infancy?

You would have to ask that question of the person you quoted.

You would have to ask that question of the person you quoted.
None are taught at that early age. The trusting bond between parent and child is what he is talking about. If the bond isn't there, the conscience usually doesn't develop properly, although there are children who turn out moral despite their parents.

None are taught at that early age. The trusting bond between parent and child is what he is talking about. If the bond isn't there, the conscience usually doesn't develop properly, although there are children who turn out moral despite their parents.

That's fine, but that's not what you originally said (via the Ramey quote). If you wish to change your first position, I have no problem with that.

Changing a point of view is a mark of a good intelligence. Being unable to change is a clear mark of insecurity.

That's fine, but that's not what you originally said (via the Ramey quote).
Then how about this one:

Romans 2:14-15 --

14When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them

Then how about this one:

Romans 2:14-15 --

14When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them

Are you trying to prove a point by quoting the Bible? You must be kidding, or very desperate.

Are you trying to prove a point by quoting the Bible? You must be kidding, or very desperate.
That's the proof passage that a child is born with a conscience.

That's the proof passage that a child is born with a conscience.

The Bible is not a "proof" passage of anything. Good grief.

Do you really believe that Bible passage is a "proof"? Or that the Bible "proves" anything?

Please tell me no. Please.

The Bible is not a "proof" passage of anything. Good grief.

Do you really believe that Bible passage is a "proof"? Or that the Bible "proves" anything?

Please tell me no. Please.
Why are you making it mine? I said "the."

Why are you making it mine? I said "the."


You said "That's the proof passage that a child is born with a conscience".

Now you're saying "Why does that make it mine? I said 'the'".?

Try to stay on topic - the readers here will appreciate your doing so.

What makes you believe that God cares? What has happened in your life that makes you think that God intervenes?

When I finished high school I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life so I joined the air force (because my sister had done so) and chose to study electronic engineering (because my brother was studying this).

Three months into my course it was a long weekend and I was invited to stay with someone I had met through a friend but they were not going to be home till late on Friday night. I caught a tram into the city and found myself at the war memorial, standing in front of the perpetual flame.

While I was standing there I heard a voice say to me "What are you doing here? This is not for you." In that moment I knew that I was going to resign my commission in the air force. It took two weeks to convince my superiors that I wasn't home sick nor that I felt the course wasn't challenging enough for me. I knew I had to leave when I did, even though it meant giving up a good income, free board, food and medical and not being able to start studying to be a teacher for 9 months as I had to wait to the next year intake at uni.

That was the only time that God spoke directly to me. The other times in my life that I have felt God intervene have been more situational. Things happen, usually at the last minute, that I have no control over, but are the right things for me. I have also seen this happen in my wife's life too.

Try to stay on topic - the readers here will appreciate your doing so.
I was only answering your question. It must have been a rhetorical one.

Lets try to keep this civil, we have done so for over 10 pages. There is no need to be critical or mean. Discussion means disagreement, that's the way it is, but we can discuss nicely, we are after all adults.

I still believe that children are born with a clean slate. What they become, what they learn, doesn't come from having a conscience at birth, but comes from their environment, those that care for them. Otherwise, the children that were given up to raise themselves in the wild, feral children, and yes, they are out there, would know right from wrong. They don't, because no one taught them. If they were born with a conscience then it would be logical that they would automatically know right from wrong, even without an example from a parental figure etc.

I'm fascinated by these children. There have been many books written and many documentaries done to follow the lives of these children. Most have no social understanding, which is to be expected. They do not have a moral compass because they were never taught the difference between right and wrong. A child born with a conscience would know, it would be ingrained. The proof is with these feral children. We are not born with a conscience, it is something we either learn, or don't.

Athos, I don't "want to have my cake and eat it too" if you read all the posts you'll know why I believe what I do. If you want to discuss Deism then at least learn what Deism is.

When I finished high school I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life so I joined the air force (because my sister had done so) and chose to study electronic engineering (because my brother was studying this).

Three months into my course it was a long weekend and I was invited to stay with someone I had met through a friend but they were not going to be home till late on Friday night. I caught a tram into the city and found myself at the war memorial, standing in front of the perpetual flame.

While I was standing there I heard a voice say to me "What are you doing here? This is not for you." In that moment I knew that I was going to resign my commission in the air force. It took two weeks to convince my superiors that I wasn't home sick nor that I felt the course wasn't challenging enough for me. I knew I had to leave when I did, even though it meant giving up a good income, free board, food and medical and not being able to start studying to be a teacher for 9 months as I had to wait to the next year intake at uni.

That was the only time that God spoke directly to me. The other times in my life that I have felt God intervene have been more situational. Things happen, usually at the last minute, that I have no control over, but are the right things for me. I have also seen this happen in my wife's life too.

You believe that this voice was God's, I believe it was you, your subconscious speaking.

I too have hear my internal voice, telling me that something that I'm doing isn't right. It's not that unbelievable to me, seeing as I do know myself better then anyone else. ;)

There are many times that I've know the right path to follow but didn't take it. Is it so surprising that my eternal voice would tell me what I already knew but didn't want to accept?

There is a difference. To you it's the voice of God, to me it's the voice of my conscience, the rules and regulations I grew up with and the knowledge that even though I may want to do something, doesn't mean it's right.

If you want to believe that that voice is God and that brings you peace, I think that's great. I don't believe that God, an all powerful being, powerful enough to create this world, would trouble himself with the mere mortals that habitate his creation.

You believe that this voice was God's, I believe it was you, your subconscious speaking.


You make it some like I don't know the "voice" of my own conscience. What I heard that night was something entirely different. The voice was separate from me and it was full of power. Even thinking about it now, 25 years later, raises powerful emotions that no other life changing decisions that I have made remotely come close to.

Three months after I started dating my wife, one evening while we were sitting at the beach I proposed to her. Why? Because at that moment I knew that she was the one, but there was no "voice" proclaiming "She's the one" and while it was a very emotional moment, the power and awe that I felt when I heard "What are you doing here? This is not for you." was not there.

Regarding my career as a teacher, it hasn't been easy for me. I taught at a Catholic school for 10 years and had many problems with students and their parents and did not get support, even from the principal. In the end I came close to having a nervous breakdown so I resigned. I spent the next 5 years taking virtual tour photographs for real estate agents.

Currently I am back teaching at a Christian school. Why is one of those situational times I see God in my life. I wasn't looking to get back into teaching when the principal of the school asked me if I would take up the position of Maths/Science teacher as the school was expanding. Immediately I said yes. Teaching at this school also has been challenging, but for different reasons to my first school.

I believe that not only did God intervene in my life that Friday night, but that night He also intervened in the lives of my students. How many and which ones I will never know, but they will since I am always asked by my students why I chose to be a teacher when I am smart enough to have been a doctor or anything else and my answer to them is to tell them of that night when God spoke to me.

The thing is, my reasons aren't reasonable to you.


You use the words proof, reasoning and reasons many times in your postings which implies you are logical and rational and are interested in logical and rational arguments and you have framed your reasoning for not believing in a caring God in a logically sound way. It takes the form of "denying the consequent".

"If a caring God exists, then there would be no suffering.
Since there is suffering, this means that a caring God does not exist."

But the flaw in your argument is in the premise.

"If a caring God exists then there would be no suffering."

This statement is not valid. As I, and others, have explained in a number of posts, suffering is a direct result of "free will". To remove suffering requires the removal of "free will".

You also said
You believe in a loving caring God, one that cares for his creation, even with all the evidence that He doesn't.


I disagree that you have presented any evidence that He doesn't. Your evidence is a list of all the types of suffering that exists but what does this prove?

Suffering exists because of two possibilities:

1. A caring God does not exist.
2. A caring God exists who values free will greater than the absence of suffering.

You choose to believe in the first possibility, while I choose to believe in the second. Neither possibility is proved by the existence of suffering.

1. A caring God does not exist.
2. A caring God exists who values free will greater than the absence of suffering.

You choose to believe in the first possibility, while I choose to believe in the second. Neither possibility is proved by the existence of suffering.

That's just it. I cannot accept a caring God because of the suffering.

You say that removing suffering would take away our free will. How? Does free will cause cancer? Does free will cause a child to be left to fend for himself in a third world country after watching his parents killed in front of him? What kind of caring God would allow that to continue?

You claim there are miracles, that there is proof of miracles. The flower that grows in the desert, the woman who's cured of cancer. If the bible is true then God is capable of far greater miracles then those. If the bible is true then he parted the sea, he made it possible for a virgin to carry his son, he turned blood in to wine, etc. etc. etc. What has he done lately that's actually changed the world for the better? I don't see any proof of miracles, otherwise that third world child would not be left hungry, alone, trying so very hard to survive. What will his suffering do for him? What purpose will it serve? None.

Suffering is exactly the reason I don't believe in a caring God. Look around you, not just in your backyard, but everywhere. There are people suffering every day. Innocent children, people that do not deserve what they're getting. What does free will have to do with any of this? Nothing.

You say that removing suffering would take away our free will. How?
When God created us, He took a step back in order to give us free will, just like a parent who hands the car keys to his teenager, giving up some autonomy so that the teen can have freedom. If the parent could never surrender the car keys to his teen, what would the teen learn from that? What would we learn if we had no free will? We would be puppets and there would be no learning. We would all be like Stepford wives, like robots.

Does free will cause cancer? Does free will cause a child to be left to fend for himself in a third world country after watching his parents killed in front of him?
Yes and yes. Do you know the causes of cancer? I'm betting cancer has an awful lot to do with how people have, with their free will, misused the resources of this world. And the child's parents were killed by someone who exercised his free will, but for the evil instead of for the good.

What kind of caring God would allow that to continue?
One who wants us to be able to make choices and not be His puppets.

You claim there are miracles, that there is proof of miracles. The flower that grows in the desert, the woman who's cured of cancer. If the bible is true then God is capable of far greater miracles then those.
So you're not satisfied with just those miracles. You want more as proof. And those wouldn't be enough either, so even more would have to be added to the list. Don't you know that there are miracles every day happening all around you, but you don't know all of them. And I'm guessing you would say something like, "Well, THAT'S not a miracle! Women are supposed to have live, healthy babies, and vegetables are supposed to grow when you plant seeds."

What has he done lately that's actually changed the world for the better?
Open your eyes, and look around you.

Women are supposed to have live, healthy babies, and vegetables are supposed to grow when you plant seeds."

Women can die in childbirth, as can children, but the majority of them are born alive, so no, that's not a miracle. Every day vegetable grow from seeds, nothing miraculous about that either. Today, like every other day, I got out of bed, is that a miracle too?

In the bible the miracles were extreme, parting seas, feeding 100's with just one fish and loaf of bread. What happened to those miracles.

You're right, it takes more then a head of lettuce to make me believe in miracles.

As for the child whose parents where murdered. Yes, the men who killed his parents were exercising their free will. What of the child? Does he have a choice? No. None. So where's his miracle?

You want to prove that God intervenes, but everything around you says he doesn't.

Today, like every other day, I got out of bed, is that a miracle too?
Yes, I could get out of bed easily a week ago, but have had increasing trouble doing it, and couldn't this morning without help. Yes, getting out of bed is a miracle.

So where's his miracle?
We were talking about free will, not about miracles.

We were talking about free will, not about miracles.
No WG, you were talking about free will being the reason that God doesn't intervene. I was asking for proof that he does, miracles, or just basic compassion would do.

You do realize that we basically agree. All of you say that God gives man free will, so you do in fact agree with me, he doesn't intervene.

If he was the loving God that takes an interest in the world he created, wouldn't he save the little boy that I talked about? That little boy is very real. Every day he wakes up in the pile of trash he sleeps in. He seeks out food in that trash, some days he's lucky, most days he's not. He's 7 years old, his parents were murdered right before his eyes when he was only 5. He has no other family. He lives in a third world country where everyone struggles just to survive. Where is God? That boy is alone, cold, hungry. He's a child. Again, where is God?

You speak of free will. Yes, the men that killed his parents had free will, they are evil. Still I ask, where is God? Instead of making a tree grow in the shade, instead of telling someone that he's not doing the right thing with his life, instead of all these tiny minuscule nothings, why not save the child? Why? Because he doesn't intervene.

We're discussing my beliefs in Deism and without even knowing it you basically agree with me. God walked away, otherwise, that little boy I spoke of, he wouldn't exist.

You do realize that we basically agree. All of you say that God gives man free will, so you do in fact agree with me, he doesn't intervene.


I disagree that us saying that God gives man free will means that we agree with you that he doesn't intervene. Up until the last few posts, the argument was about whether the existence of suffering meant that God was not a caring God. In post #109 I pointed out the flaw in your reasoning which means that the truth of your conclusion cannot be determined by what you have argued.

I certainly believe that God intervenes in this world in many ways, sometimes in miraculous ways (yes they still occur today, people are cured of cancer, literally overnight when doctors have said that there was no hope.), other times He intervenes in "tiny miniscule nothings" as you put it, but whose to say that they really are "tiny miniscule nothings"?

In chaos theory, small changes to the initial conditions can lead to large changes in the final outcome even in a short amount of time. This is known as: The Butterfly Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect)

The following link,

Hitler Could Have Been Killed Long Before WWII, But a Kind Heart Intervened (http://symonsez.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/hitler-could-have-been-killed-long-before-wwii-but-a-kind-heart-intervened/)

Shows how a seemingly kind act can have devastating consequences. And yet maybe we were saved from total annihilation by that soldier not shooting Hitler as WWII may not have started until after nuclear weapons had proliferated.

As I have stated in my post #108, I have had personal experience of God intervening in my life and I trust that God knew what He doing and what would happen because I listened to Him, even if I will never know.

No WG, you were talking about free will being the reason that God doesn't intervene. I was asking for proof that he does, miracles, or just basic compassion would do.

You do realize that we basically agree. All of you say that God gives man free will, so you do in fact agree with me, he doesn't intervene.

If he was the loving God that takes an interest in the world he created, wouldn't he save the little boy that I talked about? That little boy is very real. Every day he wakes up in the pile of trash he sleeps in. He seeks out food in that trash, some days he's lucky, most days he's not. He's 7 years old, his parents were murdered right before his eyes when he was only 5. He has no other family. He lives in a third world country where everyone struggles just to survive. Where is God? That boy is alone, cold, hungry. He's a child. Again, where is God?

You speak of free will. Yes, the men that killed his parents had free will, they are evil. Still I ask, where is God? Instead of making a tree grow in the shade, instead of telling someone that he's not doing the right thing with his life, instead of all these tiny miniscule nothings, why not save the child? Why? Because he doesn't intervene.

We're discussing my beliefs in Deism and without even knowing it you basically agree with me. God walked away, otherwise, that little boy I spoke of, he wouldn't exist.

So you expect God to get rid of all suffering?

I don't know if you are a parent, but as a parent I don't want my kids to suffer, so in order to do that lets us see what I must do to keep them from suffering:

Wake them in the morning and get them out of bed, but I line the floors with rubber and cotton, so just in case they fall I don't want them to get hurt.

Have them eat breakfast, but it can't be any oat bran muffin, although that is healthy, I don't want them to suffer from eating something they don't like to eat.

Get them to school, no walking, no school bus - in my car in the back in the middle with a safety harness surrounded my styrofoam, just in case we get into an accident.

At school, a mask and gloves need to be warn to prevent infections, wouldn't want them to suffer any illnesses, better yet I'll just put them in a sterilized buble.

At school, I will have to listen to all speech, so as to not let my child hear anything potentially harmful, or offensive - son't want them to suffer that.

No after school sports, especially contact, for obvious reasons. No sports in which you have to try out - wouldn't want them to suffer from rejection.

No dating, no sex [ can't suffer STDs that way ], no loud music, wouldn't want their hearing to sufffer.

...


I think my kids are happy this way. :D






G&P

So you expect God to get rid of all suffering?

I don't know if you are a parent, but as a parent I don't want my kids to suffer, so in order to do that lets us see what I must do to keep them from suffering:

Wake them in the morning and get them out of bed, but I line the floors with rubber and cotton, so just in case they fall I don't want them to get hurt.

Have them eat breakfast, but it can't be any oat bran muffin, although that is healthy, I don't want them to suffer from eating something they don't like to eat.

Get them to school, no walking, no school bus - in my car in the back in the middle with a safety harness surrounded my styrofoam, just in case we get into an accident.

At school, a mask and gloves need to be warn to prevent infections, wouldn't want them to suffer any illnesses, better yet I'll just put them in a sterilized buble.

At school, I will have to listen to all speech, so as to not let my child hear anything potentially harmful, or offensive - son't want them to suffer that.

No after school sports, especially contact, for obvious reasons. No sports in which you have to try out - wouldn't want them to suffer from rejection.

No dating, no sex [ can't suffer STDs that way ], no loud music, wouldn't want their hearing to sufffer.

...


I think my kids are happy this way. :D






G&P

I am a parent, I have two beautiful children that I have mentioned a few times in this thread alone.

All of your arguments are tiny little things that we all have to go through, all have to "suffer" through to become adults. None of these things will kill our children.

My argument all along, if you read back, is that Christians think of God as the father of humanity, the creator, we are his children, blah, blah, blah.

So, let me ask you, If your child was going to be molested and you had the power to stop it, would you? Is this something your child has to go through in order to be "happy", in order to grow as a human being?

If you were to be murdered, in front of your child, would you as a parent think that letting that your child fend for him/herself, living each day on the edge, sleeping in a garbage heap, suffering both mentally and physically, would be good for his/her soul? Would you as a Christian hope that the "father" of the world would save your child or is it just another part of growing up?

You speak of miracles. Where? Cancer being cured when there's no explanation. There is an explanation, we just haven't found it yet. How many years did human beings believe that the earth was flat? It took a curious mind to determine that that belief was wrong. Is that a miracle? No, it just wasn't discovered until later.

The God of the bible parted seas, turned wine into blood, a stick into a serpent, etc. etc. I'm sure you could quote the miracles far better then I could. So, if God intervenes, performs miracles, where are they? There are things far easier then parting a sea, but they're not being done.

What of the child I spoke of? Why is he being left to fend for himself? Where is God? No one can answer that. Why?

So, if God intervenes, performs miracles, where are they? There are things far easier then parting a sea, but they're not being done.
Of course, they are. Do you need a big colorful sign posted, MIRACLE DONE HERE? How many earthquakes and tsunamis and volcanoes haven't happened because God kept them from happening? How many traffic accidents have been prevented because God caused people to snap to in time or stop texting in time or look up in time? How many people haven't died because God nudged them to the right place at the right time? (I got nudged years ago and saved a stranger's life. I had no intention of being there, but the nudge was too strong to ignore.)

We have no idea of the miracles God has performed in our favor, to save us from something, but I am sure they are multitudinous. (He doesn't post signs.)

Of course, they are. Do you need a big colorful sign posted, MIRACLE DONE HERE? How many earthquakes and tsunamis and volcanoes haven't happened because God kept them from happening? How many traffic accidents have been prevented because God caused people to snap to in time or stop texting in time or look up in time? How many people haven't died because God nudged them to the right place at the right time? (I got nudged years ago and saved a stranger's life. I had no intention of being there, but the nudge was too strong to ignore.)

We have no idea of the miracles God has performed in our favor, to save us from something.

WG, most of the "miracles" you claim are because of human intervention, not divine intervention.

As for earthquakes and tsunamis, just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it was stopped. How about all the earthquakes and tsunamis that did happen, that did take lives. Why stop one but not another?

You seem to want it both ways. You want a God the intervenes yet you can't prove he does. Then you use the very examples that I say prove he doesn't intervene to try and prove he does.

You can't have it both ways. Either he stops tsunamis or he doesn't. Either he cures cancer or he doesn't.

Your God seems to pick.

Your God seems to pick and choose.
We've already mentioned that God had to take a step back in order to give us free will. We don't know the power of the evil forces that He is up against.

We've already mentioned that God had to take a step back in order to give us free will. We don't know the power of the evil forces that He is up against.

But you claim that he's stopped tsunamis, earthquakes, why stop one but not all? Why pick?

As for evil forces, that's part of your belief, and that's fine. That belief brings you comfort, but for me it's just further proof that Deism is the right choice, at least for me.

If he can stop one tsunami, one cancer patient from dying, then he has the power to stop it all.

You all seem to want it both ways. You say that cancer is man made, our fault, that's why God doesn't intervene, but then you say that there are cases of cancer that have been cured miraculously. Which is it? Either he does or he doesn't intervene.

Don't you see it? How could you miss it? You're all proving my case.

You say that cancer is man made, our fault, that's why God doesn't intervene, but then you say that there are cases of cancer that have been cured miraculously. Which is it?
I never said God doesn't intervene. I said God gives us the choice to do evil or good -- to trash the earth or to go green, to steal dogs for dogfighting bait or to work tirelessly at an animal shelter, to slide through the stop sign or to come to a full stop.

I had a friend who in May 1989 was told by her oncologist that she would not see her birthday in October of that year, so vicious and deadly was the type of breast cancer that she had. She died two months ago -- yes, of cancer, but during the years in between, she had the opportunity to visit state and national parks she had never been to and to see her sons succeed in life and also marry and produce grandchildren. She and I agreed it was one of God's miracles.

I never said God doesn't intervene. I said God gives us the choice to do evil or good -- to trash the earth or to go green, to steal dogs for dogfighting bait or to work tirelessly at an animal shelter, to slide through the stop sign or to come to a full stop.

But you also said that God doesn't cure cancer because cancer is man made, yet you claim that people that have been given a death sentence with cancer have all of a sudden become cancer free.

You also claimed that God stops tsunamis and earthquakes, but why not all of them? If he stops a few then why not stop them all? Are tsunamis and earthquakes also man made?

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. My mom was given 6 months to live, she died 3 weeks later. My dad was dying before they even diagnosed him. Both of them lived healthy lives, like I mentioned before. Neither one smoked, drank, they ate organic, they drove me nuts with their vitamins and healthy living.

I know how cancer has come to be. When I used it as a way to prove that God doesn't intervene, you all told me that it wasn't a fair example because cancer is not God's doing, but ours, so of course he won't step in. Now I'm being told that God has cured cancer.

Pick. Either it's proof that God intervenes, or it's proof he doesn't. You all seem to want it both ways but that's not fair.

But you also said that God doesn't cure cancer because cancer is man made, yet you claim that people that have been given a death sentence with cancer have all of a sudden become cancer free.
You are putting words in our mouths. I never said God doesn't cure cancer. I said he didn't create cancer. Big difference.

Some Christians have told me that if someone isn't cured, they don't have enough faith or they haven't prayed hard enough. I don't agree. It's not our own merit that makes the difference. We don't know why God does a miracle in one place but not in another, saves one person here, but not the person over there, prevents this tsunami here, but not that one there. Someday we will understand.

You are putting words in our mouths. I never said God doesn't cure cancer. I said he didn't create cancer. Big difference.

Some Christians have told me that if someone isn't cured, they don't have enough faith or they haven't prayed hard enough. I don't agree. It's not our own merit that makes the difference. We don't know why God does a miracle in one place but not in another, saves one person here, but not the person over there, prevents this tsunami here, but not that one there. Someday we will understand.

Or the explanation could be simple, as simple as believing that God created the world then walked away.

So far no one has given me a good reason to change my beliefs.

Or the explanation could be simple, as simple as believing that God created the world then walked away.

So far no one has given me a good reason to change my beliefs.

To add to your belief Alty, perhaps God also created/is creating other worlds that we do not know about... scientists have barely discovered the universe so who knows how many planets there are out there with life...
We might just be one of the worlds he created that he has not come back to 'check on' for a while to see how we have progressed :)

You can't have it both ways. Either he stops tsunamis or he doesn't. Either he cures cancer or he doesn't.


Altenweg, if we can't have it both ways then neither can you.


Cancer being cured when there's no explanation. There is an explanation, we just haven't found it yet.
...
What of the child I spoke of? Why is he being left to fend for himself? Where is God? No one can answer that. Why?

There is an explanation for that, we just haven't found it yet!

I am a parent, I have two beautiful children that I have mentioned a few times in this thread alone.

All of your arguements are tiny little things that we all have to go through, all have to "suffer" through to become adults. None of these things will kill our children.

My arguement all along, if you read back, is that Christians think of God as the father of humanity, the creator, we are his children, blah, blah, blah.

So, let me ask you, If your child was going to be molested and you had the power to stop it, would you? Is this something your child has to go through in order to be "happy", in order to grow as a human being?

Yes, of course, to take preventitive steps. But I am not God, I am not all knowing. But in my human way, the only way I can be certain that my child woul never be molested is to have my child ight at my hip at all times. Because God is not necessarily like this with us, you reject a God that intervenes? You accept a god that stands back and does NOTHING?


If you were to be murdered, in front of your child, would you as a parent think that letting that your child fend for him/herself, living each day on the edge, sleeping in a garbage heap, suffering both mentally and physically, would be good for his/her soul? Would you as a Christian hope that the "father" of the world would save your child or is it just another part of growing up?


Hopefully, that will never happen, if it does, I have plenty of life insurance and siblings that will take over. I'm not really understanding your analogy to Christianity with this scenario?



You speak of miracles. Where? Cancer being cured when there's no explanation. There is an explanation, we just haven't found it yet.

Does it take as much faith in humanity to believe this as much as in a Christian God?


How many years did human beings believe that the earth was flat? It took a curious mind to determine that that belief was wrong. Is that a miracle? No, it just wasn't discovered until later.


Darwin thought a cell was jsut a homogenous blob, now we know the cell is a machine and that even the simplest organisms have dna worthy of the most complex computer programs. So we discover this wonder scientifically.


The God of the bible parted seas, turned wine into blood, a stick into a serpent, etc. etc. I'm sure you could quote the miracles far better then I could. So, if God intervenes, performs miracles, where are they? There are things far easier then parting a sea, but they're not being done.


We will never fully know. Is it a miracle that I woke up this morning? I could have had an arrhythmia and died, or been a victim of a home invasion, or a richter 7 earthquake, or a tornado. How do I know that the very miracle is not just being?

2 years ago I hit a deer at 75 mph, at night, knocked out the lights, fish tailed right and left, on and off the median, hit a guard rail, and totaled the car. I walked out, shaken up but not hurt at all. what if there was a tractor trailor or another vehicle, in front or to the side or to the rear of me? What if there was a steep drop off? What if I fully crossed the median into oncoming traffic? I'm not that good a driver to keep a car on the road at the speed, in the dark while fishtailing it all over the road.


What of the child I spoke of? Why is he being left to fend for himself? Where is God? No one can answer that. Why?


As a parent I certainly would want my child to do every single thing I say, especially now that they are in middle school, but the fact that they often actually CHOOSE to follow me is a blessing [ a miracle unto itself ]. Certainly I think God could have created us as perfect robots that have no choice but to be obedient and love God and others. How much more the love when we CHOOSE to love God and others? { I adopted 3 of my children, they did not have a functioning biological that cared or loved them }




G&P

But you also said that God doesn't cure cancer because cancer is man made, yet you claim that people that have been given a death sentence with cancer have all of a sudden become cancer free.

You also claimed that God stops tsunamis and earthquakes, but why not all of them? If he stops a few then why not stop them all? Are tsunamis and earthquakes also man made?

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. My mom was given 6 months to live, she died 3 weeks later. My dad was dying before they even diagnosed him. Both of them lived healthy lives, like I mentioned before. Neither one smoked, drank, they ate organic, they drove me nuts with their vitamins and healthy living.

I know how cancer has come to be. When I used it as a way to prove that God doesn't intervene, you all told me that it wasn't a fair example because cancer is not God's doing, but ours, so of course he won't step in. Now I'm being told that God has cured cancer.

Pick. Either it's proof that God intervenes, or it's proof he doesn't. You all seem to want it both ways but that's not fair.

Altenweg,

You seem to be saying that if there is a G-d that intervenes he needs to intervene EVERY TIME. (You asked why if G-d stops SOME earthquakes and tsunamis, why doesn't he stop all eirthquakes or tsunamis?)

Why is that the assumption being made?

Why are you assuming an all-or-nothing approach to G-d's interventions?

Here's a question. Do parents ALWAYS intervene on their children's behalf? Or do they sometimes let the kid make their own mistakes, deal with their own issues and let the kid fall and get back up by themselves in order to give the kid a chance to grow up for themselves?

That's just ONE concept of why G-d might do what you suggest... intervene SOMETIMES and not at other times. (And not one that I prefer, actually, but it is a concept worth thinking about when you argue that a hands-on G-d should be either all-or-nothing.)

In truth all that you have shown us is tha G-d intervenes SOMETIMES, and doesn't intervene at other times, at His own discretion. But we already knew that. The fact that he DOESN'T intervene for some events doesn't prove that he NEVER intervenes... especially since there is so much scientific evidence that he does. The all-or-nothing argument doesn't really hold water from a LOGICAL perspective, because "sometimes" is a viable third alternative.

On a sepparate topic.

You mentioned in another post that you walked away from a pretty bad accident without a scratch.

As an EMT, I have seen the results of accidents that were much less violent than what you describe... and yet they resulted in fatalities or massive injuries.

Yet you walked away without a scratch.

And you see nothing miraculous about that? You don't see any divine intervention?

I do. And I'm rather happy that G-d granted this particular one.

Elliot

You mentioned in another post that you walked away from a pretty bad accident without a scratch.

Not me ET, I believe that was WG (Wondergirl) that posted that. Every accident I'm been in has left much more then a scratch. ;)


Here's a question. Do parents ALWAYS intervene on their children's behalf? Or do they sometimes let the kid make their own mistakes, deal with their own issues and let the kid fall and get back up by themselves in order to give the kid a chance to grow up for themselves?

Of course I let my kids make mistakes. I've covered this already. I've covered this one already, but I'll repeat. If my child wants to roller blade without knee pads, well, go ahead, because I know that the worst that can happen is two scraped up knees, and hopefully that child will learn that knee pads are important. But, if my child wants to have sex without a condom, and I know about it, you better believe I'm not going to turn my back on that. I'll be front line and center making sure that child is well equipped, condoms, birth control and a long talk about waiting.

There are lessons you learn that you walk away from and there are lessons that you never get to learn from because they kill you. As a parent I'll do my best to avoid the second one.


In truth all that you have shown us is tha G-d intervenes SOMETIMES, and doesn't intervene at other times, at His own discretion.

I respect that this is what you believe, but I don't. What I've shown, or believe I've shown, is that God doesn't intervene. Tsunamis, earthquakes, they're part of this world he created, he neither causes them to start or stops them from continuing.

Really, the only thing this discussion has done is furthered my belief. I know that's not what you all hoped for and I'm sorry for that, but I'm still a Deist. :)

you reject a God that intervenes? You accept a god that stands back and does NOTHING?

You seem to think that there is a choice. There is no rejection, no acceptance, it is what it is, nothing more nothing less. I see no proof that God intervenes, therefore I believe that God doesn't intervene.


Hopefully, that will never happen, if it does, I have plenty of life insurance and siblings that will take over. I'm not really understanding your analogy to Christianity with this scenario?


You're lucky. You have life insurance, you have people that will care for your children, the little boy I spoke of doesn't. How can you not understand why I'm bringing this up? This little boy isn't just a story I made up, he's very real, he's at this moment trying his very best to survive. There are thousands more just like him. What I want to know is where is God. If he can cure cancer, like some of you claim, then certainly he can take care of this little boy. Why doesn't he, because he doesn't intervene.


Darwin thought a cell was just a homogenous blob, now we know the cell is a machine and that even the simplest organisms have dna worthy of the most complex computer programs. So we discover this wonder scientifically.

Exactly! Every day we're learning more about how our world works, why things happen. Just like I said, there will be a scientific explanation for those supposed miraculous cures of cancer. Just because we haven't figured it out yet doesn't mean we won't.

I'm sorry but I still don't see any evidence that God intervenes. Everything you all have mentioned aren't miracles, they aren't proof. I wish they were but they're not.

Altenweg, if we can't have it both ways then neither can you.



There is an explanation for that, we just haven't found it yet!

If you have a point it sure would be nice for you to post it and not just try and egg me on by copying what I wrote.

I'm assuming that you don't have anything to say which is why you said nothing.

Truly, if you have something to add then I'd love to hear it. I think I've proven that I'm willing to listen, that if something sounds logical I will consider it. So far nothing has sounded logical, at least not to me, but your post makes no sense at all, it's just argument and that's not why I'm here.

If that's what you want then please find another playground, I'm not interested in getting into a fight.

Not me ET, I believe that was WG (Wondergirl) that posted that. Every accident I'm been in has left much more then a scratch.
You said you walked away from a totaled car. I wondered why you don't consider that a miracle.

I'll be front line and center making sure that child is well equipped, condoms, birth control and a long talk about waiting.
But you can't be with that child and control him every minute of his or her life, so condoms can be left wrapped/unused and birth control pills not taken because "I want a baby to love" or "they're too much trouble." Or are you going to chaperone every date until the wedding day? You do your best to parent, but it still comes down to the fact that the child has free will and can make his own decisions that wouldn't have been your decisions. God gave us the Ten Commandments as a rule book, and Jesus told us to treat each other in the ways we would want that person to treat us. But we still do our own thing and make our own choices.

You said you walked away from a totaled car. I wondered why you don't consider that a miracle.

Where did I say that?

I was in a car wreck, a four car pile up, I didn't walk away without a scratch, in fact I feel pain from that accident every day. It wrecked my back, there's nothing they can do. It also made my collar bone drop down and now it's squishing the muscle between the collar bone and first rib. I can't feel my left arm, it constantly feels like it's asleep, numbness. Only an operation can fix it and it's not an operation the doctors want to perform, it's too dangerous, could leave me without use of my arm period. Right now I have use of it, I just can't feel it.

So no, I don't consider that a miracle, I also don't remember mentioning it here. I think you're all thinking of someone else.

Where did I say that?
I'm sorry. I'm wrong. Inthebox had said that in the same box as when he pulled down your post. He posted in the box and also under it.

But even regarding the actual accident you were in, you could have been killed -- and you weren't. (And I'm sorry to hear of the pain you're in.)

Now what about my second paragraph above, that as a parent you finally give your child free will and trust him to make the right choices? Or be with him every day and every minute to make sure he does the right thing.

Altenweg, the point in my last posting was that you accused us of wanting to have it both ways, i.e. when it suited our argument God intervenes, but when it didn't God doesn't intervene implying that we should be consistent.

But then in the same posting you were inconsistent in dismissing an unexplainable cure of cancer with an appeal to a future explanation being found, but demanding an explanation for an "unexplainable" absence of God in that boy's life.

Coupled with this was your dismissive comment that a very real and powerful moment in my life when God spoke to me was just my conscience speaking to me, treating me as if I was stupid not to know my own conscience.

Sorry that I let this get the better of me.

Altenweg, the point in my last posting was that you accused us of wanting to have it both ways, ie when it suited our argument God intervenes, but when it didn't God doesn't intervene implying that we should be consistent.

But then in the same posting you were inconsistent in dismissing an unexplainable cure of cancer with an appeal to a future explanation being found, but demanding an explanation for an "unexplainable" absence of God in that boy's life.

Coupled with this was your dismissive comment that a very real and powerful moment in my life when God spoke to me was just my conscience speaking to me, treating me as if I was stupid not to know my own conscience.

Sorry that I let this get the better of me.

I never said that you're stupid. If you took it that way then I'm very sorry, that's not how I intended it.

As for letting it get the better of you, I understand that completely, I'm in that boat too often myself. ;)

At this point of the discussion I think it's best that we just agree to disagree. Obviously we're starting to get to each other, but not in a good way. I have no desire to turn this into a fight, Christians against Deist, I'm outnumbered. ;)

We've all had the chance to voice our beliefs and the reasons for them. At this point we're just going around in circles, repeating ourselves, getting nowhere.

I still believe that Deism is the right choice for me, but I will keep an open mind. I also believe that anyone's choice, no matter what it is, is the right choice. If it brings you peace then who am I to say you're wrong?

Thank you all for joining in the discussion, I value you input and thoughts.

Take care.

Alty. :)

Hi Altenweg,
Since my last post I have been thinking about your request for proof that miracles occur. I remembered a story that I was told when I was young about a man who had a gaping wound in his leg with a three cm piece of bone clearly missing and the ends of the bone dead.

Searching the internet I found out that the man's name was Pierre de RUDDER.

Case 1 (http://www.grantchronicles.com/astro116.htm) in this link is a full description of what happened.

Also I found the following book on the internet

Medical proof of the miraculous : a clinical study (http://www.archive.org/stream/medicalproofofmi00lebeuoft#page/n1/mode/2up)

Which goes into great detail examining this miracle (and others) showing why it is impossible to explain except as a divine miracle.

Some of the points are:
- 3 cm bone regenerated near instantaneously
- not enough phosphorus in the body to create that much bone
- dead bone tissue at end of each part of the break no longer there

Please take the time to read the links and then let me know what you think.

Hi Elscarta,

I'll take a look. Give me a few days, it's been pretty nuts here right now. I just started a new job and I'm juggling all the kid stuff as well. Homework is hard. Wait... aren't they supposed to be doing it? I may have to rethink this. ;)

I will look at it but it may take some time. Give me until Monday, my time. ;)