I know this solution is uniquely Australian but we bequeath this to those across the pond who would like to solve the problem in these troubled times.

Foreign workers to be paid local rates (http://www.smh.com.au/small-business/foreign-workers-to-be-paid-local-rates-20090906-fcu1.html)

This is reverse psychology at its best, not only will this give them a disincentive to come here, but the thought of paying those immigrants a fair wage will so incense our capitalist types that they will have no choice but to employ all those lay about locals who are waiting for a job, so all the illegals and backpackers will just go home in disgust because they are forced to work at regular wages and compete fairly for jobs and we know they can't do that, don't we?

all the illegals and backpackers will just go home in disgust because they are forced to work at regular wages and compete fairly for jobs and we know they can't do that, don't we?Hello clete:

I don't know what kind of illegals you have down under, but I've never seen a white man who could outwork a Mexican...

excon

Lazy americans do not have a strong work ethic as hard working mexican who is working to support his family.

Does that not say anything about US workers... not just the white ones?

Hello clete:

I dunno what kind of illegals you have down under, but I've never seen a white man who could outwork a Mexican...

excon

I don't know what kind of white men you have over there but if the white men didn't do the work here nothing would get done. Our Illegals consist of Pacific Islanders, New Zealanders, European backpackers who have overstayed their visas, various Asians (students or otherwise) who have obtained entry and stayed on, not to mention the boat people (refugees from poor economic circumstance and maybe war) and, of course, the ineveitable Lebanese who congregate in motorcycle gangs.

The layabouts I was referring to are the Aboriginals whose ethos is to take a handout where you can get it

Hello again, clete:

Two different dynamics at work. The Mexicans come here to work and send money to their families back home.

excon

Hello again, clete:

Two different dynamics at work. The Mexicans come here to work and send money to their families back home.

excon

Ex I think the Aussie and yankee sense of humour is so different, the difference is as vast as the Pacific which separates us. My post was ironic.

I understand about economic migrants we have them here, but they are not an under class as they are there. People who do itinerant work might be exploited and illegals are exploited by their own people, not by our society in general

Lazy americans do not have a strong work ethic as hard working mexican who is working to support his family.

Does that not say anything about US workers....not just the white ones?

I think it says a lot about american workers that you have exported your industries and yet you still need mexicans to do the work

I don't know what kind of white men you have over there but if the white men didn't do the work here nothing would get done. Our Illegals consist of Pacific Islanders, New Zealanders, European backpackers who have overstayed their visas, various Asians (students or otherwise) who have obtained entry and stayed on, not to mention the boat people (refugees from poor economic circumstance and maybe war) and, of course, the ineveitable Lebanese who congregate in motorcycle gangs.

The layabouts I was referring to are the Aboriginals whose ethos is to take a handout where you can get it

Clete,

Have you been to a construction site? In Sydney particularly the vast majority of labour consists of Asian and Eastern Europeans. And they work very very hard for long hours!

But the white man works hard too. Not denying that. Just correcting your assertion that nothing would get done if left to immigrants. Untrue...

Clete,

Have you been to a construction site?? In Sydney particularly the vast majority of labour consists of Asian and Eastern Europeans. And they work very very hard for long hours!!

But the white man works hard too. Not denying that. Just correcting your assertion that nothing would get done if left to immigrants. Untrue...

Yes I have been on a construction site and at that time not an Asian or Eastern European in sight but no shortage of Maori

Didn't suggest that immigrants don't work hard. If you followed the thread you would see where I told ex I was referring to aboriginals when I spoke of local layabouts and when I say white men doing the work europeans and others are included in that, but I was contrasting ex's suggestion that where he comes from the white men don't work(of course, there are black men there but not really here). As you come from here you should know that there aren't many "white men" about, most of us have some sort of tan and are really indistinguishable from one another unless you start looking closely at features or odd forms of dress or listening to the accents. I also doubt that those immigrants are underpaid as is suggested by the original article so the whole thing comes down a little aussie irony

There are a FEW disincentives that could be used to lower illegal immigration rates.

1) Vigorous prosecution of EMPLOYERS who violate immigration law would eliminate their incentive to give jobs to illegals, thus lowering job availability to illegals.

2) Eliminating illegal immigrants from being able to obtain any and all government programs. This will eliminate MOST of the reason that illegal immigrants come here in the first place. If they didn't get free health care, free education, free food stamps, etc. they wouldn't come here in the first place.

3) Stronger border enforcement. If we make it more difficult and more risky for illegal immigrants to come here, fewer of them would be willing to take the risk.


Part of the incentive for illegals to come here is the fact that it is so easy... no risk, high reward. Take away the reward and increase the risk, and the REASON for coming here in the first place is eliminated.

Elliot

As someone who worked my whole life besides immigrants; and worked up the ranks from the bottom with fellow supervisors and managers of all races, I take exception to the broad brush claim that any one "group " can out work another .

As someone who worked my whole life besides immigrants; and worked up the ranks from the bottom with fellow supervisors and managers of all races, I take exception to the broad brush claim that any one "group " can out work another .
So who works harder, republicans or liberals?

I'll answer that in the same ironic nature of the question. Clearly liberals work harder . They won didn't they ?

BTW... in Quebec I noticed lots of white people doing jobs that people claims whites won't do. .

Not sure who claims white people won't do any jobs in Quebec, who are these people claiming this? Not much of race issues there.

Not much of race issues there

True... rarely saw anyone of color there .

True... rarely saw anyone of color there .
So your previous post was for what reason?? :confused:

Because of Excon's comment #2 . How can a city operate without those immigrants doing jobs the whites won't do or are not as efficient at ?

Ah I get it. Thanks.

So who works harder, republicans or liberals?

Neither.

They both work hard.

But CONSERVATIVES (not Republicans) work SMARTER.

Elliot

But CONSERVATIVES (not Republicans) work SMARTER.LOL! Good one!

My solution to the illegal immigration problem:

Make Mexico the 51st State of the Union.

That would make a MUCH shorter southern border to patrol!

My solution to the illegal immigration problem:

Make Mexico the 51st State of the Union.

That would make a MUCH shorter southern border to patrol!

So you think we should import poverty from other countries... because the amount we have now isn't enough.

Elliot

So you think we should import poverty from other countries... because the amount we have now isn't enough.

Elliot

Hey, that would make a change from exporting it, Eh?

You don't want to import poverty, then give these people jobs in their own land, but the idea you should take over the rest of Mexico is not a bad one after all you already took over large parts of it (California, Texas, New Mexico) earlier so why discriminate against the poorer section. Taking over Mexico would have one big draw back, their cities are even more lawless than your own and they have a long history of responding to tyrants with revolution.

Yes take over Mexico and you could build a big fence south of Yucatan, hey why don't you do that anyway?

You don't want to import poverty, then give these people jobs in their own land

Clearly we excel in that as well judging by the amt of jobs we've exported.

Quoting from the article...
The days of guest workers being paid as little as $45,000 a year are over, with the Immigration Minister, Chris Evans, announcing that employers would no longer be able to pay overseas workers less than locals.

What kind of jobs pay "as little as $45,000 a year"? Huh? I don't think these "jobs" are manual labor type jobs.

Clete, I kind of think you've got your signals mixed up here. And the fact you call the native peoples of your country "lazy" I find quite offensive. I knew some native Australians down in South Florida and they were very hard working gentlemen who came to South Florida legally due to their expertise in alligator control.

I think you're confusing your fellow Aussies - you know, the Freegans - with hard working native Australians. It's the Freegans that give Australia a black eye. You need to take up a petition to have all the food dumpsters have mandatory locks on them. Then those pesky Freegans won't have any free food and will actually have to work for a living in order to eat.

Think of all the industry we'd have back Elliot!

Of course, if Mexican's were made into American's they might slowly acquire our laziness.

Yup, I'll agree with those who said Americans are sorry and lazy. We are indeed the most spoiled bunch of rich brats in the world.

Someday... someday those welfare checks will run out, then we'll separate the men from the mice, er, should I say RATS.

Quoting from the article.....
The days of guest workers being paid as little as $45,000 a year are over, with the Immigration Minister, Chris Evans, announcing that employers would no longer be able to pay overseas workers less than locals.

What kind of jobs pay "as little as $45,000 a year"? Huh? I don't think these "jobs" are manual labor type jobs.

Clete, I kinda think you've got your signals mixed up here. And the fact you call the native peoples of your country "lazy" I find quite offensive. I knew some native Australians down in South Florida and they were very hard working gentlemen who came to South Florida legally due to their expertise in alligator control.

I think you're confusing your fellow Aussies - you know, the Freegans - with hard working native Australians. It's the Freegans that give Australia a black eye. You need to take up a petition to have all the food dumpsters have mandatory locks on them. Then those pesky Freegans won't have any free food and will actually have to work for a living in order to eat.

It might surprise you to know that unlike the land of shinning glory, or was that shine and story, I always get the two confused, there is fair minimum wage in operation here and yes, a labourer could earn as much as $45,000 a year but I think maybe would earn less. It's those dammed statistics that average everything and create a false impression of utopia, we have that problem with politicians all the time.

You think that singleling out a group who consistently under performs despite the money thrown at them is offensive, well I tell you, I find them offensive, they even have to be forced to send their children to school and their dole taken so that they are forced to buy food for their families. We have no concept of the noble savage here. Do you know they actually think jail is a great place, where else could they get three square meals a day and roof when it rains for nothing?

Australian natives skilled in alligator control? Came from the alligator river no doubt? NEWS FLASH! There are no alligators in Australia so these fellows would certainly be in the minority, we go in for crocodile rassling, haven't you seen Crocodile Dundee, and not representative of their fellows who mainly live in squalid third world communities and show not intention of being weaned from the government teat. Freegans, don't know what they are, could you be referring to the homeless, probably the mentally ill, most of them, so you would deprive the homeless mentally ill of the right to survive? Tell me do you have any other Nazi solutions to propose? No FREEGAN here refers to the Australian aboriginal, perhaps you think we should send them to concentration camps for reeducation, a sort of "no abo left behind" initiative.
Perhaps we should get some "faith based" organisations to look after them. NEWS FLASH! We tried that and got the stolen generations debacle. No friend we don't need the advice of our brethern across the sea on this one. Your black panthers came here and rabble roused the aboriginals and now they think they are black.

Hey, that would make a change from exporting it, Eh?

You don't want to import poverty, then give these people jobs in their own land,

Well, gee, I thought that improving Mexico's economy was the responsibility of the Mexican government.

And we have enough problems exporting jobs out of the country that should rightfully be going to Americans because foreign labor is cheaper than domestic labor, thanks to unions. We don't need to export more jobs to other countries.


but the idea you should take over the rest of Mexico is not a bad one after all you already took over large parts of it (California, Texas, New Mexico) earlier so why discriminate against the poorer section.

And you see war started by Mexico over a century ago in which we won and took over the land we conquered as no different than simply taking them over today.

I hope you're joking.



Taking over Mexico would have one big draw back, their cities are even more lawless than your own and they have a long history of responding to tyrants with revolution.

So do we. Who do you think they learned it from.

Unfortunately, they also have a long history of putting tyrants into power through revolution as well.


Yes take over Mexico and you could build a big fence south of Yucatan, hey why don't you do that anyway?

Aren't you one of those who have been against American "imperialism" in other countries, even when our actions in those other countries are justified by the circumstances? Aren't you one of those who complains that we are overstepping our bounds in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why would you advocate REAL imperialism by the USA into Mexico?

Elliot

Well, gee, I thought that improving Mexico's economy was the responsibility of the Mexican government. Hello again, El:

So the Mexican government is responsible for improving their economy... But HERE, not so much...

I was right. You DON'T listen to yourself.

excon

Hello again, El:

So the Mexican government is responsible for improving their economy... But HERE, not so much...

I was right. You DON'T listen to yourself.

excon

Where did I say that the US government isn't responsible for improving the economy?

I'm still waiting for Obama to do something that will improve the economy.

His socialist policies have failed and made things WORSE.

I'm waiting for him to do something that actually works... like lowering taxes, curbing government spending, creating tax incentives that stimulate spending, production and growth in the economy. Instead, he's taking over companies, capping incomes, regulating industries, taxing success, incentivizing failure, increasing government spending, growing deficits and debt, and killing jobs.

Bush created jobs and brought unemployment to some of the lowest levels in history. He lowered taxes, and did his job in helping the economy grow.

Obama has killed millions of jobs and spent the country into bankruptcy.

Yes... it is the government's job to stimulate the economy and help it grow through tax policy and monetary policy. Bush did his job. Obama, so far, has failed miserably to do his.

Elliot

Wow!

What a chain of posts my little ironic post made!

Aren't you one of those who have been against American "imperialism" in other countries, even when our actions in those other countries are justified by the circumstances? Aren't you one of those who complains that we are overstepping our bounds in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why would you advocate REAL imperialism by the USA into Mexico?

Elliot

But American imperialism is alive and well and living in Central and South America. Your continued enforcement of the Monroe doctrine is evidence of that.

I could think of no greater circumstance than you want to bring stability to your own region and wipe out two problems you have in that region, drugs and illegal immigration. It is through extending the greater american prosperity zone that you can achieve this, an economic union of North America, after all isn't this what the US is. Your NAFTA is a step along the way. Imperialism takes different forms these days, that is why military invasion of places like Iraq and Afghanistan is over the top, an conquest is no excuse for keeping territory, USA applies a double standard, one against Mexico and another with Israel where you demand they give back captured territory. Why can't Israel keep the west bank and Gaza and all the responsibilities that go with it, and yet you are not quick to leave Iraq and Afghanistan interferring in the affairs of those countries. Iraq I understand, Oil is important, but chasing a few religious fanatics around the hills of Afghanistan for eight years without result whilst killing more civilians than combatants I don't. They say revenge is sweet, but your revenge is tyranny. And you cannot blame Iran for wanting nuclear weapons with your troops operating in the region. No, annexing Mexico would be a great step in your peaceful expansion. What a fantastic stimulatory building program you could undertake, you could rebuild Mexico the way you rebuilt the south in the 1800's and keep all the Mexicans at home. Honestly I don't think your thinking is big enough, you can't see beyond the end of your gun.

Honestly I don't think your thinking is big enough, you can't see beyond the end of your gun.Hello again, clete:

I think you mistake whose doing the looking... These are right wingers.. They don't see economic opportunity.. They don't see a safer border. They don't see an end to the drug war... All they see is a bunch of brown faces.

excon

Hello again, clete:

I think you mistake whose doing the looking... These are right wingers.. They don't see economic opportunity.. They don't see a safer border. They don't see an end to the drug war... All they see is a bunch of brown faces.

excon

Yes ex it would be horrific problem if all those hispanics suddenly became Americans, you wouldn't be able to tell who was legal, they would all be legal and entitled to fair wages and all the other rights. Slipping down to Mexico for the weekend would have a whole new connotation

Clete,

Maybe Mexican's don't want to be Americans.
Or maybe Mexico should annex the USA?

Same difference right? Who's government works better?

It might surprise you to know that unlike the land of shinning glory, or was that shine and story, I always get the two confused, there is fair minimum wage in operation here and yes, a labourer could earn as much as $45,000 a year but I think maybe would earn less. It's those dammed statistics that average everything and create a false impression of utopia, we have that problem with politicians all the time.

You think that singleling out a group who consistently under performs despite the money thrown at them is offensive, well I tell you, I find them offensive, they even have to be forced to send their children to school and their dole taken so that they are forced to buy food for their families. We have no concept of the noble savage here. Do you know they actually think jail is a great place, where else could they get three square meals a day and roof when it rains for nothing?

Australian natives skilled in alligator control? came from the alligator river no doubt? NEWS FLASH! there are no alligators in Australia so these fellows would certainly be in the minority, we go in for crocodile rassling, havn't you seen Crocodile Dundee, and not representative of their fellows who mainly live in squalid third world communities and show not intention of being weaned from the government teat. Freegans, don't know what they are, could you be referring to the homeless, probably the mentally ill, most of them, so you would deprive the homeless mentally ill of the right to survive? Tell me do you have any other Nazi solutions to propose? No FREEGAN here refers to the australian aboriginal, perhaps you think we should send them to concentration camps for reeducation, a sort of "no abo left behind" initiative.
Perhaps we should get some "faith based" organisations to look after them. NEWS FLASH! we tried that and got the stolen generations debacle. No friend we don't need the advice of our brethern across the sea on this one. Your black panthers came here and rabble roused the aboriginals and now they think they are black.


Yes, I am quite aware that there are no alligators in Australia. These Australian natives were hired for their expertise in crocodiles and brought to America to round up alligators in South Florida. I was going to go back and correct my original entry but never bothered to do it. The Florida Wildlife hired them to come to America. These men did an outstanding job of rounding up the alligators in Florida and relocating them. A lot of the alligators were "leapers" and quite treacherous as well. Very dangerous work those men did. There were about 12 of them. And they had a cousin along from one of the islands that specialized in cannibalism (although he was not a cannibal) just to the north of Australia.

As for Freegans - they are white people (basically) who live in urban areas like Sydney or Melbourne that refuse to work. They live in cars or vans and raid the food dumpsters each night outside supermarkets or restaurants and eat whatever food is thrown out. Yes, these people are not retards, etc. they are quite well educated but simply refuse to work period and would rather have things given to them for free. Surprised you haven't heard of Freegans and just what and who they are. Gee, even little old me here in America knows what they are.

As for the Australian natives you seem to forget that here in America we have the Native Americans called Indians. These people too were abused by the white man. They have been relegated to "reservations" where they are supposed to live in squalid conditions. You Aussies have literally done the same with the Australian natives. You Aussies don't want them to change but keep them in the Stone Age. Think about how many hundreds or thousands of years those Natives lived in Australia conserving their resources and living simply on the land. Then the white people from England happily sent all their prisoners over and let them loose on the continent to wreak havoc. The Native Australians are still in shock. I don't recall reading where there is any Native Australians in Parliament. Probably not allowed by the "white" folks there.

I don't know how long you have lived in Australia but I am surprised at your attitude towards these ancient peoples. The men I met from Australia (and yes, I've met some white men from Australia as well) even though they were the native Australians - I did find them to be quite intelligent and more spiritual than the folks here in America. I met a wonderful crocodile (alligator) trapper named Earthkin. He was from the northern part of Australia and he and his extended family were basically nomads going from place to place around Australia's northeastern coastline where they are a lot of crocodiles. They are basically simple people who listen to the earth and revere it. They know how to live in that harsh climate and survive. Would you be able to survive without your car, indoor plumbing with running water, etc. Probably not. They've been doing it successfully for centuries long before the white man arrived in Australia.

What's up with all the "white people" remarks?

Whats up with all the "white people" remarks?Hello s:

Here we talk about everything - even white people.

excon

Yes, I am quite aware that there are no alligators in Australia. These Australian natives were hired for their expertise in crocodiles and brought to America to round up alligators in South Florida. I was going to go back and correct my original entry but never bothered to do it. The Florida Wildlife hired them to come to America. These men did an outstanding job of rounding up the alligators in Florida and relocating them. A lot of the alligators were "leapers" and quite treacherous as well. Very dangerous work those men did. There were about 12 of them. And they had a cousin along from one of the islands that specialized in cannibalism (although he was not a cannibal) just to the north of Australia..

I don't doubt this team did a good job but they are not representative of Australian natives and you may be also speaking of a Torres Strait Islander from Mer or somewhere like that, different people but no cannibals or headhunters now.




There are many urban myths Americans are told about Australia and there are some homeless and maybe the odd layabout living in a car, but there are also homeless shelters and canteens so no need to live out of dumpsters. Don't believe all you hear about Australia. There is no comparison between Australia and the US really, we are a very different society. I imagine you have many FREEGANS in America.

[QUOTE As for the Australian natives you seem to forget that here in America we have the Native Americans called Indians. These people too were abused by the white man. They have been relegated to "reservations" where they are supposed to live in squalid conditions. You Aussies have literally done the same with the Australian natives. You Aussies don't want them to change but keep them in the Stone Age. Think about how many hundreds or thousands of years those Natives lived in Australia conserving their resources and living simply on the land. Then the white people from England happily sent all their prisoners over and let them loose on the continent to wreak havoc. The Native Australians are still in shock. I don't recall reading where there is any Native Australians in Parliament. Probably not allowed by the "white" folks there..

We aussies have not done the same to our natives as the americans did. We did not undertake a genocidal war or wars against them for two hundred years. We did not force them into reservations. We wanted to intergrate them into our society but they wanted to live traditionally but the land will not support large populations, it never did. Many aboriginals died because of disease just as your natives did. The English did not turn their prisoners loose, they escaped or earned release and formed the basis of a productive society. The only reason they were sent here was the American revolution which stopped america being a dumping ground for English prisoners. You see we have more in common than you think. There have been Australian aboriginals in parliament both federally, and in the states, but they have no concept of political organisation, so it is rare and they are usually not full blood. People like Ridgeway and Bonner made outstanding contributions and aboriginals have been recommended for Governor-General, our Head of State. There are no aboriginal political parties. Your suggestion that we practice aparthied here is offensive and demonstrates your lack of knowledge. Since we keep no official record of ethnicity or identify it in everyday speech, a persons ethnicity is only known when they choose to speak of it. We have all sorts of people in our parliaments including europeans, chinese, aboriginal descent, asians. There is no barrier even to the top office as there is in America.

[QUOTE I don't know how long you have lived in Australia but I am surprised at your attitude towards these ancient peoples. The men I met from Australia (and yes, I've met some white men from Australia as well) even though they were the native Australians - I did find them to be quite intelligent and more spiritual than the folks here in America. I met a wonderful crocodile (alligator) trapper named Earthkin. He was from the northern part of Australia and he and his extended family were basically nomads going from place to place around Australia's northeastern coastline where they are a lot of crocodiles. They are basically simple people who listen to the earth and revere it. They know how to live in that harsh climate and survive. Would you be able to survive without your car, indoor plumbing with running water, etc. Probably not. They've been doing it successfully for centuries long before the white man arrived in Australia.[/QUOTE]

I an a sixth generation Australian, my people were free settlers in 1822. There is even a possibility that my blood lines are mixed with the aboriginal and I have friends who are aboriginal. The aboriginals in Australia are not nomadic in the sense of peoples in other places, very few could live like that today. Crocodiles are protected animals in Australia. I have pioneered a property in Australia so I know how to live without many of the modern conveniences but no sane person abandons what you can reasonably get, not even the aboriginals. You don't really think they live withour cars, running water and electricity do you? Only in the most remote of encampments and not permanently. As I said before we have no concept of the noble savage here and neither do the aboriginals. The aboriginals are not still in shock, they have been conditioned to expect welfare and they show little ambition. Those who show ambition are dragged down by their traditions, few escape poverty, so they are defeated by their own people, not by "white Australia" which is too busy getting ahead to take much notice. I have the same attitude to any layabout who just wants to take a handout and not work.

Hello s:

Here we talk about everything - even white people.

excon

Just wondering. I question the response if any other creed were used in the context I'm seeing in this thread.

Just wondering. I question the responce if any other creed were used in the context I'm seeing in this thread.Hello again, s:

So, when I talk about Mexicans outworking white guys, I have to be politically correct and mention other creeds too? Nope. It don't work that way here.

excon

Hello again, clete:

I think you mistake whose doing the looking... These are right wingers.. They don't see economic opportunity.. They don't see a safer border. They don't see an end to the drug war... All they see is a bunch of brown faces.

excon

Hey, you're not a right winger, but look who is classifying people according to color, and making stereotypical statements on work ethic based on race??




G&P

Whats up with all the "white people" remarks?

There appears to be a certain section of society who thinks that there should be a distinction so that they can point out that us terrible white folks have done something terrible because of race to others. They forget that people everywhere make distinctions because of race and enforce it in various ways. The arabs in Dubai don't employ non arabic speakers, for example. Your skin does not make you immune to racism anymore than it should make you a victim of it. I live in a polygot society where there are people of every race but for some this is beyond their experience. I have certain points of view arising out of my experience that may give me a poor opinion of people from certain racial groups. But that opinion may not arise out of ethnicity but their world view. White defines european for many but the caucasian race spans both europe and asia and includes people who are sun tanned and those who are not, so who is white is a moot point

The word "mote" is spelled "moot".

Hey, you're not a right winger, but look who is classifying people according to color, and making stereotypical statements on work ethic based on race????????Hello in:

Yeah, I don't live up to my hype.

excon

Hello again, s:

So, when I talk about Mexicans outworking white guys, I have to be politically correct and mention other creeds too? Nope. It don't work that way here.

excon

When did being Mexican or any other race become a creed do they take an oath to be Mexican. I know American children every day take an oath to be American but does it extend to others

Quite an amusing thread this one, I have particularly enjoyed the sanctimonious ranting of paraclete. He displays a peculiar type of Calvinist righteousness, (or rather, self righteousness) that was de rigueur during the Howard years, and makes itself apparent in the vigorous defence of Australian virtue he has so adroitly presented. No doubt there is virtue here worth defending, and much of it at that! However to suggest that Australian Aboriginals have been given a "fair go" in this country, and that it is they themselves who are entirely to blame for the substantial difficulties they now face, is short sighted in the extreme.

Given paraclete's extreme dislike of laziness, it is pehaps ironic he should display an intellectual sloth that, it must be said, is one of the defining characteristics of his ilk. Cultural influence perhaps? Maybe, however the sheer vulgarity of such thinking suggests to me that it may well be a lack of culture that is to blame. Let's take his assertion that...


... they have been conditioned to expect welfare and they show little ambition.

It is really only one short step from this assertion, to what is actually at the heart of the problem. Why does one stop here, if not for laziness? What "they" have been conditioned to expect, is FAILURE! Ambition? That is nothing more than desire, and it makes little sense to desire that which you believe you cannot have. Where does this belief come from? How can WE, as FELLOW CITIZENS set about changing it, TOGETHER? It seems to me that a goodly portion of the Aboriginal population do not even feel like they are a part of the wider society. Aboriginal MPs? Yes, 8 out of 800. Doctors? Lawyers? Policeman? Teachers? I have yet to meet even one that was Aboriginal, and it is not that much of a stretch, even for the laziest of minds, to conceive of how this state of affairs might influence the beliefs of a generation.


You think that singleling out a group who consistently under performs despite the money thrown at them is offensive, well I tell you, I find them offensive, they even have to be forced to send their children to school and their dole taken so that they are forced to buy food for their families. We have no concept of the noble savage here. Do you know they actually think jail is a great place, where else could they get three square meals a day and roof when it rains for nothing?

Really? "They" think that jail is "great"? When did "they" tell him this I wonder? Was it all of "them"? Or just some of "them"? Given that this question is obviously rhetorical, why does he choose to proclaim this subset as being "representative", and not the subset mentioned elsewhere in this thread? The group he mentions are in an extreme minority, yet he uses the term "them", as if to imply Aboriginal people as a whole. Why is this? And if he is to say "I only said they were not representative of their fellows, who are not like them", then I would ask what the point of the statement actually is? To make a statement that essentially says "Honest hard working people are not representative of criminals and bad parents", seems to me to be a statement worthy of only the utmost imbecile.

There is no doubt that if the problems faced by Aboriginal people are to be surmounted, then it is Aboriginal people themselves who must bear the ultimate responsibility. In order for them to do this however, they first of all need to overcome the institutional marginalisation that is still very much a reality. Paraclete's simplistic representation of the situation is lazy, dishonest, and ultimately worthless.

Quite an amusing thread this one, I have particularly enjoyed the sanctimonious ranting of paraclete. He displays a peculiar type of Calvinist righteousness, (or rather, self righteousness) that was de rigueur during the Howard years, and makes itself apparent in the vigorous defence of Australian virtue he has so adroitly presented. No doubt there is virtue here worth defending, and much of it at that! However to suggest that Australian Aboriginals have been given a "fair go" in this country, and that it is they themselves who are entirely to blame for the substantial difficulties they now face, is short sighted in the extreme.

Given paraclete's extreme dislike of laziness, it is pehaps ironic he should display an intellectual sloth that, it must be said, is one of the defining characteristics of his ilk. Cultural influence perhaps? Maybe, however the sheer vulgarity of such thinking suggests to me that it may well be a lack of culture that is to blame. Let's take his assertion that...



It is really only one short step from this assertion, to what is actually at the heart of the problem. Why does one stop here, if not for laziness? What "they" have been conditioned to expect, is FAILURE! Ambition? That is nothing more than desire, and it makes little sense to desire that which you believe you cannot have. Where does this belief come from? How can WE, as FELLOW CITIZENS set about changing it, TOGETHER? It seems to me that a goodly portion of the Aboriginal population do not even feel like they are a part of the wider society. Aboriginal MPs? Yes, 8 out of 800. Doctors? Lawyers? Policeman? Teachers? I have yet to meet even one that was Aboriginal, and it is not that much of a stretch, even for the laziest of minds, to concieve of how this state of affairs might influence the beliefs of a generation.


Really? "They" think that jail is "great"? When did "they" tell him this I wonder? Was it all of "them"? Or just some of "them"? Given that this question is obviously rhetorical, why does he choose to proclaim this subset as being "representative", and not the subset mentioned elsewhere in this thread? The group he mentions are in an extreme minority, yet he uses the term "them", as if to imply Aboriginal people as a whole. Why is this? And if he is to say "I only said they were not representative of their fellows, who are not like them", then I would ask what the point of the statement actually is? To make a statement that essentially says "Honest hard working people are not representative of criminals and bad parents", seems to me to be a statement worthy of only the utmost imbecile.

There is no doubt that if the problems faced by Aboriginal people are to be surmounted, then it is Aboriginal people themselves who must bear the ultimate responsibility. In order for them to do this however, they first of all need to overcome the institutional marginalisation that is still very much a reality. Paraclete's simplistic representation of the situation is lazy, dishonest, and ultimately worthless.

Tokugawa, another one with a penchant for rhetoric without knowledge. There are indeed aboriginal people who have surmounted the difficulties and become politicians, judges, doctors, teachers, police, medical workers, even building contractors and other trades persons but that they are in the minority among their fellows and that they have not come to Tokugawa's attention doesn't make them non-existent but representative of the views expressed here that it is welfare given to these people that holds them back and creates the environment for laziness and disadvantage. Yes there are whole communities who have a view that jail is a whole lot better than their day to day existence but what can you expect when imposition of tribal law offers a far worse alternative. A tribal law they tell us should apply to them.

Australian aboriginals have been given an opportunity to do something but rarely take it. Who creates the squalor of the communities, not the government, not the people in the cities, nor should they be expected to clean it up, but those right there on the ground, and you cannot say this is because someone has not taken the trouble to create employment for these people, or offer them care. When employment opportunities are available they will often cite local tribal reasons the project should not proceed , or tie it up in endless discussion and wrangling. Have they been given a fair go, yes in recent years they have, but their own heritage holds them back. This place is no longer the BBQAREA of two hundred years ago of the aboriginal dreaming, but a viverant community open to anyone willing to have a go. If an aboriginal wants to live in a tribal manner, fine, but don't expect the rest of us to support the life style, because some sort of hybrid really doesn't fit.

So, Tokugawa, as we say here, you are barking up the wrong gum tree, mate!