I'm Baptist and I've been wanting a tattoo of a cross for a long time. Just recently I was told getting a tattoo is against the bible and is a sin. Is this true if it is a symbol of your religion and showing your faith? If I were to get it, it would be the only tattoo I would ever want and it would be on my upper arm where nobody could see it unless I had my shirt off.

And if it is a sin, would god forgive me for getting it even though it is permanent?

Although I don't attend church on a regular basis like I should, I prey every night before bed and always ask god for forgiveness for my sins and thank him for a list of things.

All opinions and help are welcome, thanks :)

I'm Lutheran and a preacher's kid. I would guess Baptists believe by getting a tattoo you are defacing your body, which is the temple of God. I wonder if Baptist women get their ears pierced or get their hair cut or color changed.

To my way of thinking, a cross tattoo would be honoring God by remembering Jesus' sacrifice.

snippy07,

In the OT under the Law the Lord told the Jewish people not to mark on their bodies.
Check out Leviticus 19:28

"'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

This is the verse that someone might use to suggest it is a SIN. BUT we are no longer under the law...we live on this side of the cross under Grace. You will find nothing in the NT to suggest it is a sin.

I think of this verse that Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 10

"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.

Personally I wouldn't have one although I don't think it is a sin. I guess I don't like what tattoo's represent to the world in general.

However ,any tattoo that would be dishonoring to the Lord... such as satanic symbols and sexual stuff.. well I think it goes without saying would be wrong for a Christian to put on their body.

From what I know...

ANY tattoo is a sin.

This is what pastors have told me...

Here is a link that may be helpful to your question: http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/f/tattoochristian.htm

Sarah

Mud,

It isn't a sin. I just don't think it is WISE to have one. Mostly because of what they represent to the world... ( that is those without Jesus Christ).

The thing is Christianity isn't a religion with a bunch of rules. There are sins that we know to stay away from that are obvious such as lying, stealing, murder I mean it is a given. This is one of those things that I believr is up to the indivudual believer in Christ and his relationship with the Lord. I have my ears pierced for heaven sakes... and I sure don't think it is wrong nor have I asked for forgiveness for it. I do think MOTIVE should always be in question in anything we do though.

I would personally advise against having one... but I cannot in good conscience say it is a SIN in which the Lord had to die on the cross for. NO WAY. I again refer to this verse that Paul wrote to the CHURCH... ( that means US)

"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.

Also in 1 Corinthians 10:31 it says "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."
Can what you are wanting be done for the glory of the Lord? Will it cause a fellow brother or sister to stumble in sin? Personally, I do not think they are a sin to get on your body. The only reason I don't have one is because I use my money on things like... food lol. But when it can come to causing someone to stumble deeper into their sin then I think you need to approach this prayerfully and seek Gods Will in what you do

Mud,

It isn't a sin. I just don't think it is WISE to have one. Mostly because of what they represent to the world...( that is those without Jesus Christ).

The thing is Christianity isn't a religion with a bunch of rules. There are sins that we know to stay away from that are obvious such as lying, stealing, murder I mean it is a given. This is one of those things that I believr is up to the indivudual believer in Christ and his relationship with the Lord. I have my ears pierced for heaven sakes...and I sure don't think it is wrong nor have i asked for forgiveness for it. I do think MOTIVE should always be in question in anything we do though.

I would personally advise against having one...but I cannot in good conscience say it is a SIN in which the Lord had to die on the cross for. NO WAY. I again refer to this verse that Paul wrote to the CHURCH... ( that means US)

"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.

Why do you think it is not wise to get a cross tattoo'd if you are a good believer? I respect your opinion, but I'm just curious why you think that. I like all of your input so far along with everybody else :)

I dislike it when thugs get cross tattoos but if you are a true believer I think it's something to respect because the person is proud of the religion and not ashamed.

Snippy07,

This really should be a decision between you and the Lord. The reason I THINK it might not be wise is because of how the world sees tattoos. By the world I am referring to non Christians.

We are told to be 'set apart" from the world. For me Snippy, it would seem wrong. But you are younger than me. You are a different generation . When I was younger even non christians looked down on tattoo's.. that isn't the case anymore.

snippy07,
Having a tattoo on your arm to the glory of God and to show the world that you are lover of Jesus and what he has done for us is OK.
It's not much different than waring a cross or have one as a lapel pin.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

All opinions and help are welcome, thanks :)

The laws of God are the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ and HIS righteousness. We are not justified by the law but by the blood of Christ. We understand this!
HOWEVER, That does not mean we do not learn by the laws of God, or that we make void the laws of God. (Romans 3:31)

Anyone who feels they can sin freely are under the law of sin. They are not following the footsteps of Christ. They instead follow their own old ways, and have not surrendered in doing the WILL of GOD as Christ footsteps have done.

God's wisdom is far greater then our own. God teaches us not to mark the body with print, and I would do HIS WILL.

"What IF" a printed mark upon your body would someday mean what satan (anti-christ) wanted his followers to do? "What IF" that is why God has foretold us not to do it? Is our ONE LORD the truth, the life, and the way? (John 14:6)

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Christ judges by FAITH, (Mark 2:9 Mark 5:34 Mark 10:54) and the righteousness of God is reveal by FAITH (The just live by FAITH) + (For we walk by FAITH, not by sight)

The laws of God are the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ and HIS righteousness. We are not justified by the law but by the blood of Christ. We understand this!
HOWEVER, That does not mean we do not learn by the laws of God, or that we make void the laws of God. (Romans 3:31)

Anyone who feels they can sin freely are under the law of sin. They are not following the footsteps of Christ. They instead follow their own old ways, and have not surrendered in doing the WILL of GOD as Christ footsteps have done.

God's wisdom is far greater then our own. God teaches us not to mark the body with print, and I would do HIS WILL.

"What IF" a printed mark upon your body would someday mean what satan (anti-christ) wanted his followers to do? "What IF" that is why God has foretold us not to do it? Is our ONE LORD the truth, the life, and the way? (John 14:6)

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Christ judges by FAITH, (Mark 2:9 Mark 5:34 Mark 10:54) and the righteousness of God is reveal by FAITH (The just live by FAITH) + (For we walk by FAITH, not by sight)

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Review this video: http://www.wayofthemaster.com/hbks.shtml

we live on this side of the cross under Grace.
Are you telling me that we can sin as much as we want want and we'll still be under grace?

chocodrip,
That is what some folks wrongly think and believe.
They says that they are saved regardless of how sinful they might be.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Sure the Bible commands against putting symbols on your body, mind you it also decries shellfish.

If you want the Christian Tradition as opposed to the Biblical tradition think whether it breaks.

1. Love the lord your God with all your heart, soul etc etc
2. Love your neighbor as yourself

I can't see how marking your Body with a symbol of Jesus Christ's suffering and love breaks either of those.

If wider society disagrees (you worry about the reaction of everyone else) F*&@ them. Since when did the Christian pay attention to what other people think?

On the other hand I would advise against symbol tattoos in general. They have fluid meanings likely to change over time and context. Some of the greatest crimes in history have been done under a cross. The Nazi swastika was an eastern symbol of peace before the holocaust. There is no way to know what groups or individuals will use the cross as there calling card in 50 years, or what exactly it will mean then.

Anthony Hillyer,
I do agree with your post on a tattoo cross.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thank you Arcura
All the best,
Anthony

How much does this tattoo cost?
In my opinion it would be much wiser use of that money to for instance help Haiti or support a missionary or give to support the poor or homeless. How about feeding a family for a week on that money you will waste decorating your body with something that will fade in 20 years into a blob of colors that no one will recognize? To me that is a much wiser use of available funds. To promote the kingdom of God not the kingdom of some tattoo artist who will blow that money on who knows what.

450donn,
You have made a good point.
Thanks,
Fred

snippy - I appreciate your question but I'd like to expand the discussion a little more.

To get or not to get a tattoo in my opinion is not the question. I mean that when you break down the issues we contend with in this life, what is really important to God is that you love him and love your neighbor as yourself. It's been my experience that sometimes we can make a bigger deal about superficial things rather than the most important things. I know what it is like to major in the minors because I once held that perspective. But I see that there is a bigger picture with God and the less substantive things like getting piercings, tattoos, etc. tend to be merely insignificant in comparison to how I relate to God and others. Let me try to illustrate what I mean.

Take the Pharisees and the confrontations they had with Jesus. They obsessed over things like whether it was lawful for someone to be healed on the Sabbath. They took issue with the disciples taking heads of grain and rubbing them in their hands to eat because they did it on the Sabbath. They complained that the disciples didn't wash their hands before they ate and didn't wash the outside of pots and cups as they drank. The issue is that they made a big deal out of things that were insignificant when they should have paid more attention to their own inwardness. Consider what Jesus had to say:

'And he called the people to him again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.” And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”'

Now, I'll admit that Jesus is talking about food and not tattoos. But is it really a stretch to conclude that he could have just as easily mentioned tattoos here? Lots of things that were forbidden for people to do in the Old Testament were mere rules of practice that would have made the Israelites distinct from their neighbors and were ritualistic in nature (meaning as it related to their practice of Judaism): abstaining from eating certain foods, not being tattooed, women being unclean during their menstrual cycles, people being unclean after coming into contact with a dead person, and on and on.

As I see it, those things were meant to make the people distinct and they were commanded to observe those things in the context of their religious system. But what God was truly after from the Israelites and from us today isn't that we obsess over every little law but that we take God seriously enough to try and understand who he is and what he values. Is he more concerned that we not mark our bodies than whether we are selfish, cruel, and mean-spirited towards others? Is he more impressed when we abstain from getting a tattoo than when we forgive someone who has wronged us or admitted our guilt to someone we have wronged? At the end of the day, I think those are the kind of questions that get at the heart of what you are really asking…I hope, anyway.

jakester,
Exceptionally Good Post.
Thanks,
Fred

I've actually have been wondering the same thing, but I have also considered at the same time to have the scripture that has impacted me the most along with it, I doubt anything satanic can come from having gods word tattooed on your skin in nice writing. Heck maybe at the swimming pool you'll help bring god into someone's life by sitting in the hot tub with your arm/back facing them with words of salvation on your skin :P

monkeydamyo,
That's an interesting thought.
But keep in mind that displaying religious names and symbols might offend some people and some of the are violent or will sue.
Those kinds of people offend me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Galatians 5:3-6
"3.Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
4.You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
5.But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.
6.For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

My father-in-law is a Baptist minister and he will tell you than any tattoo is a sin.

Imagine his surprise when he noticed mine for the first time during our wedding ceremony, which he performed... but that's besides the point. ;)

There's more to it than that - in my belief.

We're born sinners and will make mistakes. Ideally, those mistakes are not intentional, however. I suggest praying about this to make your decision. God will guide you in your decision.

kindj,
Thanks for that info passage.
Fred

My father-in-law is a Baptist minister and he will tell you than any tattoo is a sin.

Imagine his surprise when he noticed mine for the first time during our wedding ceremony, which he performed.... but that's besides the point. ;)

There's more to it than that - in my belief.

We're born sinners and will make mistakes. Ideally, those mistakes are not intentional, however. I suggest praying about this to make your decision. God will guide you in your decision.

I agree, man, there is more to it than that... at the same time, I don't think God is going to guide you about a tattoo. I mean, what's he going to do, part the clouds and tell you not to do it? No disrespect, I'm just saying, how is God going to guide that kind of decision?

There are so many greater things at stake in this life than whether we get a tattoo or not. Will I ever see my need for God's forgiveness? Will I make it through this life with my faith intact? Will I love my neighbor as myself? Will I humble myself to another person when I have wronged him and ask for forgiveness? Will I extend mercy to others when they have wronged me? I honestly think that the greatest plague of humanity is religion which concerns itself which trivial crap like tattoos instead of the life or death issues like eternal life and mercy from God.

Just thinking out loud.

jakester,
You thought out loud well for that.
AND made the point quite well.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

To answer the Leviticus Verse "issue" - I found a great article that articulates the answer:
"Bible says in Leviticus 19:28, "Do not cut your bodies for the dead, and do not mark your skin with tattoos. I am the Lord." (NLT) How much clearer can that be?
It's important, however, to look at the verse in context. This passage in Leviticus, including the surrounding text, is specifically dealing with the pagan religious rituals of the people living around the Israelites. God's desire is to set his people apart from other cultures. The focus here is prohibiting worldly, heathen worship and witchcraft. God forbids his holy people to engage in idolatrous, pagan worship and sorcery which imitates the heathens. He does this out of protection, because he knows this will lead them away from the one true God."

So - a Christian in today's society & time - getting a tattoo as a symbol of faith or your love for Jesus is NOT the same as the Levitical Law.

To comment on "sndbay's" comment or suggestion of a person getting a tattoo of their own free will (of a cross, scripture or ANY tattoo for that matter!)as being potentially the mark of the beast (at least that's what I understood your response to suggest) - That is simply NOT at all the case. That's not how that will play out... lots and lots of research on that if you do a little digging.
Check out this article regarding tattoos for Christians - it's really great:
http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/f/tattoochristian.htm

To answer the Leviticus 19:28 verse "issue" - I found a great article that articulates the answer:
"Bible says in Leviticus 19:28, "Do not cut your bodies for the dead, and do not mark your skin with tattoos. I am the Lord." (NLT) How much clearer can that be?
It's important, however, to look at the verse in context. This passage in Leviticus, including the surrounding text, is specifically dealing with the pagan religious rituals of the people living around the Israelites. God’s desire is to set his people apart from other cultures. The focus here is prohibiting worldly, heathen worship and witchcraft. God forbids his holy people to engage in idolatrous, pagan worship and sorcery which imitates the heathens. He does this out of protection, because he knows this will lead them away from the one true God."

So - a Christian in today's society & time - getting a tattoo as a symbol of faith or your love for Jesus is NOT the same as the Levitical Law.

To comment on "sndbay's" comment or suggestion of a person getting a tattoo of their own free will (of a cross, scripture or ANY tattoo for that matter!) as being potentially the mark of the beast (at least that's what I understood your response to suggest) - That is simply not at all the case. That's not how that will play out... there is lots and lots of information & teaching on that if you do a little digging.
Check out this article regarding tattoos for Christians - it's really great:
Tattoos and Christians - Should Christians Have Tattoos? (http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/f/tattoochristian.htm)

My advice - first thing to do before getting a tattoo... pray and ask the Lord for direction & guidance & have the faith to believe He will answer!
:)

The way I'm thinking is, I don't regret getting my Cross Tattoo, at the same time I do. I do like showing that I'm a believer and that I can look down always, no matter where I am, see my tattoo on my forearm and it calms me to know that Jesus and God are watching me, and I need to think like them more. It's sort of my sinful reminder, were it considered a sin. However, with that, comes flaunting. If I'm not mistaken, you should be humble about yourself, religion etc. Don't get me wrong, I love my cross as I said because it reminds me everyday of what Jesus did for me, but I do hope if it is a sin God can forgive me for being foolish. I should've known that I don't need a mark to remind me, I just need his guidance and love. My advice, would be not to get one.

I have a tattoo of a cross that says Jesus in you I live and I want the world to see it. In order to reach people they should be able to relate to us and so I believe tattoos are a great way to outreach

It is NOT a sin to get a tattoo. My biggest problem with it is what it represents to the world. It is a "worldly" thing to do. But there is no list of do's and don't's in Christianity. We are to be lead by peace. If you don't have peace about it... don't do it. Paul said in Romans that whatever is done without faith is sin. I guess I would use that as my standard when there is a gray area.

A tattoo is a sin in the first place. If you were to study the bible you would also know that the son of our father, the most high, did not die on a cross rather a tree or stake as noted in the bible over 50 times. Also ask yourself if someone you loved dearly was shot in the head and killed would it be wrong to tattoo the scene, gun, ext. of them being killed on your body? Id think not why glorify the way in which they were killed. Instead remember what the purpose of there death actually was not how it was done.

I'm on the fence about this one.
Where I live tattoos are looked down upon in a sort of way, and getting a cross usually represents something different, yet it is what you want it to be. The small things in life matter not, it's the legacy you leave behind, and the one you take into the afterlife that you will carry forever.

(Leviticus 19:28) 28 “'And YOU must not make cuts in YOUR flesh for a deceased soul, and YOU must not put tattoo marking upon yourselves. I am Jehovah.

(Deuteronomy 14:1-2) 14 “Sons YOU are of Jehovah YOUR God. YOU must not make cuttings upon yourselves or impose baldness on YOUR foreheads for a dead person. 2 For you are a holy people to Jehovah your God, and Jehovah has chosen you to become his people, a special property, out of all the peoples who are on the surface of the ground.


(Jeremiah 47:5) 5 Baldness must come to Ga′za. Ash′ke‧lon has been put to silence. O remnant of their low plain, how long will you keep making cuts upon yourself?


12 Consequently I entreat YOU by the compassions of God, brothers, to present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with YOUR power of reason.


Any disfigurment you make upon your body, is wrong and is a sin. If you are a Christian, you would certainly not want to make markings on your body—even temporarily—that smack of paganism or false worship.

This command must also have encouraged the Israelites to manifest respect for their bodies as God's creations.—Psalm 100:3; 139:14; Job 10:8.

Why not put God's Laws in your heart and respect your body. If you love God, your speech and your conduct will let others know you are a lover of Christ and respect all God given laws. Even if you get a tattoo of a cross, that will not show anyone anything. However if you imatate Jesus in your conduct and speech in all things, that is what will set you apart from the world, as one of Jesus' foot step followers.

Peace,
Hope12

Hope12,
Those verses specifically say these acts are "for" a dead person. They refer to pagan practices that were done by the people of Canaan around the time the Israelites came along. That is something VERY different than what the OP is asking. Your skewed interpretation betrays a personal dislike for tattooing, as well as a high level of legalistic thinking that is not going to help the questioner.

So unless you consider getting a cross tattoo, specifically with Jesus in mind, to be getting it "for a dead person," your answer is not correct.

Snippy, there's nothing biblically wrong with this kind of testimony if it's something you really want to do to honor the Lord. If you later became convinced that getting it was a sin (please don't), yes, God can forgive anything. He looks at the heart, not the upper arm.

I'd say, if you really want to do it and you want to get it as a testimony that you're a Christian, go for it.

Dwasher,
These laws were not just for dead persons but alwso f\or the living. You so nicely prove this in your post -to me. I qoute you " They refer to pagan practices that were done by the people of Canaan around the time the Israelites came along. That is something VERY different than what the OP is asking."
Tattoos were a pracytice of pagans not of those who obey God's laws. Why would a "Christian" follow anything a pagan would do? Would Jesus get a tattoo? Something to think about, what of all the aids and other things passed on b tattoos?

Peace,
Hope12

These laws were not just for dead persons but alwso f\or the living. You so nicely prove this in your post -to me. I qoute you " They refer to pagan practices that were done by the people of Canaan around the time the Israelites came along. That is something VERY different than what the OP is asking."
Tattoos were a pracytice of pagans not of those who obey God's laws. Why would a "Christian" follow anything a pagan would do? Would Jesus get a tattoo? Something to think about, what of all the aids and other things passed on b tattoos?

Since you used the comment option instead of the reply, I had to do that quote manually. I don't know if Jesus would get a tattoo or not; neither do you. I don't know where you live, but in the US tattoo artists and parlors are strictly licensed and the sanitizing requirements are very rigid, so the AIDS thing and all that is pretty much a red herring.

The Torah told the Israelites not to be like the people of the land they were going to be occupying. That included things like getting tattooed as a way to call the spirit of a deceased person. In other words, it was a form of occultism. Do you really think it's legitimate to extend that to the modern-day practice of body art? Get real. What you've done her is not that unusual: you find a common practice that you don't like, then go fishing for something in the Bible that you think will support your dislike. As a good American, I will support your right to be wrong. But don't be surprised if I go out of my way to correct your error when you try to foist it on someone else in public.

Once again, snippy, if your goal is to honor the Lord, go for it. My ex-wife and I are scuba divers, and she has an absolutely amazing tattoo on her right shoulder that includes a diver, an octopus, a crab, a starfish, and a critter called a wolf eel. It's quite the conversation starter. And there's absolutely nothing biblically wrong with it.

In LEVITICUS 19:28 the Lord said Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord. I Believe the Lord is saying Don't go off and get someone's name if there dead to keep remembrance of them because once the lord has taking him they no longer exists on earth... which means that you shouldn't try to keep there spirit around.

In LEVITICUS 19:28 the Lord said Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord. I Believe the Lord is saying Dont go off and get someones name if there dead to keep rememberance of them because once the lord has taking him they no longer exists on earth...which means that u shouldnt try to keep there spirit around.

So if I was to get my dead sister's name tattooed on me as a memorial, that would mean I was trying to keep her spirit around? Get real. The Leviticus passage has to do with trying to practice magic spells and invoke the dead, that sort of thing. It has nothing to do with simply remembering someone.

And the question was specifically about a cross tattoo, so I'm not sure what this comment has to do with it anyway.

The cross is a pagan symbol, therefore not of christian origin, and it doesn't matter whether the tat is a cross, tick or dash, true christians would not need to mark themselves permanently with ink to prove their faith to God or anyone else.

The cross is a pagan symbol

This is the funniest thing I have read all week.

Spread the smiles dwashbur! :D

I'm Baptist and I've been wanting a tattoo of a cross for a long time. Just recently i was told getting a tattoo is against the bible and is a sin. Is this true if it is a symbol of your religion and showing your faith? If i were to get it, it would be the only tattoo i would ever want and it would be on my upper arm where nobody could see it unless i had my shirt off.

And if it is a sin, would god forgive me for getting it even though it is perminent?

Although i don't attend church on a regular basis like I should, I prey every night before bed and always ask god for forgiveness for my sins and thank him for a list of things.

All opinions and help are welcome, thanks :)

Look Snippy,
In the first place I do not think you should ask anybody here or elsewhere whether God will forgive you for committing a sin. Nobody, not even the Church's highest hyerarchies, can anticipate or advance what God may, will or want to do. At the very best, we can imagine that according to God's Commandments we may be punished or rewarded for our acts and behavior over here.
Other than that, is a very high presumption for anyone to affirm that God WILL do or WILL not do that.
As for your tattoo, in my church (Roman Catholic), tatooing is not considered, to the best of my knowledge a sin, but nevertheless, to tattoo your arm with a cross does look like a lack of respect for the cross.
If you wish to carry the symbol of the Cross with you, why don't you buy yourself a chain with a hanging Cross in it, and put it around your nexk? I, for one, wear one.
Gromitt 82

The cross is a pagan symbol, therefore not of christian origin, and it doesn't matter whether the tat is a cross, tick or dash, true christians would not need to mark themselves permanently with ink to prove their faith to God or anyone else.

Insofar the symbol of the Cross was already used in ancient Babilon, and that crosses in different shapes and sizes have been used by a number of civilizations, whether in Asian or in Precolombine Mesoamerican cultures, it is correct to consider crosses a pagan symbol.
However, our colleague is not referring to any of said symbols but, clearly, to the Christian symbol of the Cross, where Jesus Christ was crucified.
In this respect, therefore, the Cross is not a pagan symbol, but a Christian one.
On the other hand, I agree with you that we Christians do not need to mark ourselves in any way with crosses or any other symbols. Another primitive Christian sign is a fish (ictus) and I do not think anybody may think of tattooing him/herself with a fish as a symbol of his/her faith.
By the same token, if he/her likes to do it, let him/her do it and be happy about it.
I think it is not worse than the present fad of piercing all parts of the body to hang all kinds of custom jewelry or gimmicks...
Gromitt82

to tatoo your arm with a cross does look like a lack of respect for the cross.

Why?

Why?

Because, as I said, at least for the Catholic world, it represents the symbol of the redemption of Mankind through the crucifixion of Christ. And I daresay that this is important enough to deserve a certain amount of respect and devotion.
Of course, you can do whatever you want and no Catholics will threaten your life if you choose to tattoo a cross in your arm or elsewhere in your body. Be my guest!
That is one of the differences between Christianity and other religions, as Islam, for one.
We, Catholics can be molested, insulted, provoked and offended without any risk of violent reaction on our side.
To a certain extent, it seems we like to turn the other cheek when someone strikes us...

Gromitt82

Because, as I said, at least for the Catholic world, it represents the symbol of the redemption of Mankind through the crucifixion of Christ. And I daresay that this is important enough to deserve a certain amount of respect and devotion.

Um, if you read the original post, respect and devotion are the whole idea behind getting the tattoo. Yes, it's a symbol of redemption through Christ. So why shouldn't this person wear it proudly on their arm? You have not answered the question. All you've done is show your own prejudice.

Um, if you read the original post, respect and devotion are the whole idea behind getting the tattoo. Yes, it's a symbol of redemption through Christ. So why shouldn't this person wear it proudly on their arm? You have not answered the question. All you've done is show your own prejudice.

I think I have! Whether I have shown my own prejudice or not, is simply a matter of opinion. You believe so and I do not.
Muslims and Jews are not allowed to show any identification of God. In fact, Jews cannot even write the name of GOD...
We, Catholics, are too lenient about that. In many protestants churches you want see anything but the naked Cross without Christ.
I think it deserves a respect and in my opinion a taattoo is not the best sample of respect.
Still, if you think the contrary, be my guest!
Gromitt82

I think it deserves a respect and in my opinion a taattoo is not the best sample of respect.
Still, if you think the contrary, be my guest!
Gromitt82

My question was, WHY it not respectful? You haven't answered that. "It's just my opinion" is not an answer; I would hope your opinion is based on something more than a whim.

Furthermore, you said

to tattoo your arm with a cross does look like a lack of respect for the cross.

This is not expressed as an opinion, but as a statement of fact. I asked why and you retreated into "it's just my opinion." I'm asking the basis of that opinion.

Granted, you did answer the original question to the effect that the RCC doesn't consider it a sin. Thank you for that.

On a side note, you keep making a big deal of the fact that you're Catholic. I think you'll find that most folks here couldn't care less. I for one don't care if you're Catholic, Lutheran, Metho-Presy-Bapti-Cost, or Joe's Church and Vacuum Cleaner Repair. The question remains the same: why do you consider a cross tattoo on the arm disrespectful? Doesn't it all come down to the attitude and motivation of the wearer?

My question was, WHY it not respectful? You haven't answered that. "It's just my opinion" is not an answer; I would hope your opinion is based on something more than a whim.

Furthermore, you said


This is not expressed as an opinion, but as a statement of fact. I asked why and you retreated into "it's just my opinion." I'm asking the basis of that opinion.

Granted, you did answer the original question to the effect that the RCC doesn't consider it a sin. Thank you for that.

On a side note, you keep making a big deal of the fact that you're Catholic. I think you'll find that most folks here couldn't care less. I for one don't care if you're Catholic, Lutheran, Metho-Presy-Bapti-Cost, or Joe's Church and Vacuum Cleaner Repair. The question remains the same: why do you consider a cross tattoo on the arm disrespectful? Doesn't it all come down to the attitude and motivation of the wearer?


OK, since you seem to like arguing, let’s argue.

It is a sheer waste of time but, at least, I will practice my English, which I cannot do as often as I do with other languages.

In the first place, I am not making a big deal of my faith. I have just stated I belong to the RCC for when I participate in a forum where there may be other colleagues belonging to all kind of Christian denominations, I may as well be precise about mine.

It seems to me, however, that it is you WHO MAKE A BIG DEAL OF THE FACT THAT YOU ARE AN ATHEIST, by the way you point out (most inconsiderately I would add), that you could not care less about a number of Christian denominations, including Joe’s Church and Vacuum Cleaner Repair.

In my opinion, this attitude tends to show:
a) Your educational level leaves a lot to be desired
b) You are probably an atheist
c) If not, you must be a Muslim
d) In both cases, I wonder what you are doing in a Christian forum like this.

Continuing with the argument of the tattoo, I will only add that I consider it disrespectful for exactly the same reason that I would consider disrespectful to tattoo in any part of my body a picture of my mother.

It is just a matter of good taste and respect as far as I am concerned.

Obviously, you do not share this opinion.

For me respect, reflects an attitude of deference, admiration or esteem and this stance forces me to reject the tattoo of a Cross or my mother’s picture, in my arm.

On the other hand, in good taste, for me, implies the acceptance of generally esthetic standards in manners and conduct.

I know you may find it difficult to understand this reasoning, as unfortunately, in modern times, both respect and good manners and taste have been degraded to great extent.

But I belong in the group of “folks” who were brought up and educated in a different way to what seems to be in fashion now-a-days.

Cordially,
Gromitt82

OK, since you seem to like arguing, let’s argue.

It is a sheer waste of time but, at least, I will practice my English, which I cannot do as often as I do with other languages.

Asking a legitimate question about the basis of your preference constitutes liking to argue. Oooookay.


In the first place, I am not making a big deal of my faith. I have just stated I belong to the RCC for when I participate in a forum where there may be other colleagues belonging to all kind of Christian denominations, I may as well be precise about mine.

You mentioned it no less than five times in three posts. If that's not making a big deal of your Catholicism, I don't want to know what is.


It seems to me, however, that it is you WHO MAKE A BIG DEAL OF THE FACT THAT YOU ARE AN ATHEIST,

Wow. Just... wow.


by the way you point out (most inconsiderately I would add), that you could not care less about a number of Christian denominations, including Joe’s Church and Vacuum Cleaner Repair.

Okay, let me spell this out for you:


J O K E

It's called pushing something to its ultimate absurdity for the sake of humor. If you don't get that, it's not my fault. I find it astonishing that cracking a dumb joke makes me an atheist. I could squawk to the moderators about such blatant abuse, but I choose to laugh instead.


In my opinion, this attitude tends to show:
a) Your educational level leaves a lot to be desired
b) You are probably an atheist
c) If not, you must be a Muslim
d) In both cases, I wonder what you are doing in a Christian forum like this.

Go read my profile before you make such ludicrous accusations.


Continuing with the argument of the tattoo, I will only add that I consider it disrespectful for exactly the same reason that I would consider disrespectful to tattoo in any part of my body a picture of my mother.

Then you must have a pretty low opinion of your mother. I know plenty of people who have done just that as a way to honor and remember their mothers. You are telling them all, with a handful of keystrokes, that their tributes to their mothers are actually disrespectful. Why don't you go spit in their faces while you're at it? If you don't want to do it, fine. But your attitude says you pass judgment on everybody else based on your own narrow-minded opinion. You do not have the right to do that, because you don't know what you're talking about.


It is just a matter of good taste and respect as far as I am concerned.

Obviously, you do not share this opinion.

I agree that good taste and respect are good things. I do not agree that your opinion is the baseline against which all such matters are to be judged. Earlier you suggested wearing a cross around someone's neck. There is no qualitative difference between that and having a picture of a cross on one's arm. It's displaying an image of a cross. Once again, you are displaying your own baseless prejudice, nothing more.


For me respect, reflects an attitude of deference, admiration or esteem and this stance forces me to reject the tattoo of a Cross or my mother’s picture, in my arm.

For you, that's fine. But you do not have the right to judge anyone else's attitude toward the cross or the Lord who died on it based on your own knee-jerk opinion. For that matter, you do not have the right to judge my friend who has a picture of his dead mother on his arm. It's a mark of very high respect to be willing to place such an image where it can always be seen and the person or event can always be brought to mind. If you don't want to do it, then don't. But don't tell someone else they're being disrespectful, because you have no idea what's in their heart. You don't even have an idea what's in my easily-accessible profile, which is why you keep making such wrong-headed comments.


On the other hand, in good taste, for me, implies the acceptance of generally esthetic standards in manners and conduct.


"generally esthetic" is a meaningless phrase. If you mean, generally-accepted standards of good taste and conduct, then you're the one who's wrong, because attitudes toward things like tattoos have changed drastically. The generally-accepted view is much more lenient and accepting than yours is, so you are the one who's out of touch with the accepted norms.


I know you may find it difficult to understand this reasoning, as unfortunately, in modern times, both respect and good manners and taste have been degraded to great extent.

But I belong in the group of “folks” who were brought up and educated in a different way to what seems to be in fashion now-a-days.


I would be very interested to know how old you think I am. How you or I was brought up has nothing to do with it. What counts is who we are now and how we relate to the world around us. That seems to be something you're not very good at, at least if the above comments about me are any indication.

http://camerafraud.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/you_re-doing-it-wrong2.jpg

My dear and angry friend,

Let us go on with our interesting debate:

“Asking a legitimate question about the basis of your preference constitutes liking to argue. Oooookay.�
To avoid unnecessary discussions, I shall simply copy forwith the Dictionary Thesaurus definition of “to argue�
v.tr.
1. To put forth reasons for or against; debate: "It is time to stop arguing tax-rate reductions and to enact them" (Paul Craig Roberts).
2. To attempt to prove by reasoning; maintain or contend: The speaker argued that more immigrants should be admitted to the country.
3. To give evidence of; indicate: "Similarities cannot always be used to argue descent" (Isaac Asimov).
4. To persuade or influence (another), as by presenting reasons: argued the clerk into lowering the price.
v.intr.
1. To put forth reasons for or against something: argued for dismissal of the case; argued against an immediate counterattack.
2. To engage in a quarrel; dispute.
No further comments needed.
No supplementary clarification re. my Catholicism, which you seem so much to resent...

“I find it astonishing that cracking a dumb joke makes me an atheist. I could squawk to the moderators about such blatant abuse, but I choose to laugh instead�

When someone says he couldn't care less about Catholicism and a other Christian denominations, as you did in your past answer the other day, I think it is legitimate to wonder what kind of faith that person has, if any! On the other hand, “cracking a dumb joke about ANY religion� is not only a lack of respect for that religion, whichever, but also an abuse. Yet, I will follow your example and I will laugh instead, for laughing is very healthy.

Go read my profile before you make such ludicrous accusations

As a matter of principle, I do not read the profiles appearing in this type of forums or other social networks. I have been able to determine that some people just write down a number of assets which are only intended to satisfy their ego and impress others, which, of course, I am not saying it is your case…
On the other hand, saying that someone may be an Atheist or a Muslim is not ludicrously accusing him/her of anything, but just pointing out a possibility which, in my opinion, may be as insulting as if you would accuse me of being a Catholic. Alternatively, if you are a Christian, I do not understand how you dare “crack dumb jokes� regarding Catholics and pretend they are just for kicks…!


Then you must have a pretty low opinion of your mother. I know plenty of people who have done just that as a way to honor and remember their mothers. You are telling them all, with a handful of keystrokes, that their tributes to their mothers are actually disrespectful. Why don't you go spit in their faces while you're at it? If you don't want to do it, fine. But your attitude says you pass judgment on everybody else based on your own narrow-minded opinion. You do not have the right to do that, because you don't know what you're talking about.
Here again you distort what I am saying, and you do it purposely, to try to put in my lips words I have not said. In English, this is also called slandering, but perhaps you are unacquainted with the word and its implications. I am not denying the right your many friends or acquaintances have to tattoo crosses, pictures of their mothers or whatever they want to tattoo on their bodies. They are perfectly entitled to do that if they so wish. There are many persons too who are in favor of homosexual marriages (New York have recently approved a law in this respect) and there are thousands, all over the world, that proclaim their pro-abortion attitude. But it does not follow that I have to agree with them or that I cannot express what I think of these people.
I do not agree with either of them as I do not agree with the kind of tattoos we are talking about. I think I clearly say that “it is just a matter of good taste and respect as far as I am concerned� and I am as allowed to say so as you are to say the contrary.
I think that you, out of a certain amount of conceit, also tend to pretend that your opinion is the right one while other points of view are definitely wrong. When you say that “There is no qualitative difference between wearing a cross around someone's neck. And having a picture of a cross on one's arm.� You should add something like “in my opinion�, otherwise, you are asserting that only what you say is right…
But you do not have the right to judge anyone else's attitude toward the cross or the Lord who died on it based on your own knee-jerk opinion. For that matter, you do not have the right to judge my friend who has a picture of his dead mother on his arm.
I repeat I am not judging anyone else's attitude towards the cross or anything else, for what matters.
I think, using your own line, that this certainly is your “knee-jerk� opinion.
I said before I do not agree with either abortation or homosexual marriages. Unfortunately, both are legal in my country and in many States of yours. But I still say, along with thousands of others all over the world, that I DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS FASHION. However, I DO NOT JUDGE THOSE WHO ARE IN FAVOR. There will be Someone Else Who will, eventually, judge them all right! SO why should I?
Nevertheless, you seem to believe you are entitled to not only judge my opinions but to transform them into value judgements I have never expressed. Slightly unfair, is not it?
BTW, I do not see why you have so much interest in boasting about your “easily-accesible profile�. Using the same words you used the other day, I could not care less. I'm 85 years, doctorate in Economics (emeritus) by the Sorbonne, in Paris; AB in Humanities and Theology, by the Eberhard Karls University, in Tübingen (Baden-Würtemberg), plus some other minor degrees that do not matter now. Can communicate in 6 languages, but I do not think it necessary to advertise it anywhere, like others obviously like to do.
“generally esthetic" is a meaningless phrase. If you mean, generally-accepted standards of good taste and conduct, then you're the one who's wrong, because attitudes toward things like tattoos have changed drastically. The generally-accepted view is much more lenient and accepting than yours is, so you are the one who's out of touch with the accepted norms.
If you think that “generally esthetic� is a meaningless phrase, I salute you for your English knowledge while advising you to contact the Merriam Webster directors because the definition is theirs. As for your statements that it is I who is wrong “, …because attitudes toward things like tattoos have changed drastically…� I am afraid you are a little bit too optimistic.
We are a bit more than 6 billion people in this beautiful world of ours and I have considerable doubts that the majority of this population has changed “drastically� their attitudes towards tattooing… I think you are somewhat influenced by the Hollywood series LA Ink…

I would be very interested to know how old you think I am. How you or I was brought up has nothing to do with it. What counts is who we are now and how we relate to the world around us. That seems to be something you're not very good at, at least if the above comments about me are any indication.

Last but not least, I do not know how old you are, though I have the feeling you are younger than I am, which is not difficult, bearing in mind my age and your apparent intolerance.
We old people are rather tolerant with our neighbors.

Furthermore, and contrary to what you opinate, how we have been brought up has a lot to do with what we may be now. Who we are now, depends to a large extent, upon the education we have received and upon our family background.

Reputed educational psychologists, such as the Swiss Jean William Fritz Piaget, has sustained and his colleagues still do, more than ever, “that most people understand and accept the fundamental role education plays in supporting our growth, conditioning our adult behavior and controlling our regeneration as a nation�

Cordially yours,
Gromitt 82

Quoting Dwashbur

My dear and angry friend,

Let us go on with our interesting debate:

“Asking a legitimate question about the basis of your preference constitutes liking to argue. Oooookay.�
To avoid unnecessary discussions, I shall simply copy forwith the Dictionary Thesaurus definition of “to argue�
v.tr.
1. To put forth reasons for or against; debate: "It is time to stop arguing tax-rate reductions and to enact them" (Paul Craig Roberts).
2. To attempt to prove by reasoning; maintain or contend: The speaker argued that more immigrants should be admitted to the country.
3. To give evidence of; indicate: "Similarities cannot always be used to argue descent" (Isaac Asimov).
4. To persuade or influence (another), as by presenting reasons: argued the clerk into lowering the price.
v.intr.
1. To put forth reasons for or against something: argued for dismissal of the case; argued against an immediate counterattack.
2. To engage in a quarrel; dispute.
No further comments needed.
No supplementary clarification re. my Catholicism, which you seem so much to resent...

“I find it astonishing that cracking a dumb joke makes me an atheist. I could squawk to the moderators about such blatant abuse, but I choose to laugh instead�

When someone says he couldn't care less about Catholicism and a other Christian denominations, as you did in your past answer the other day, I think it is legitimate to wonder what kind of faith that person has, if any! On the other hand, “cracking a dumb joke about ANY religion� is not only a lack of respect for that religion, whichever, but also an abuse. Yet, I will follow your example and I will laugh instead, for laughing is very healthy.

Go read my profile before you make such ludicrous accusations

As a matter of principle, I do not read the profiles appearing in this type of forums or other social networks. I have been able to determine that some people just write down a number of assets which are only intended to satisfy their ego and impress others, which, of course, I am not saying it is your case…
On the other hand, saying that someone may be an Atheist or a Muslim is not ludicrously accusing him/her of anything, but just pointing out a possibility which, in my opinion, may be as insulting as if you would accuse me of being a Catholic. Alternatively, if you are a Christian, I do not understand how you dare “crack dumb jokes� regarding Catholics and pretend they are just for kicks…!


Then you must have a pretty low opinion of your mother. I know plenty of people who have done just that as a way to honor and remember their mothers. You are telling them all, with a handful of keystrokes, that their tributes to their mothers are actually disrespectful. Why don't you go spit in their faces while you're at it? If you don't want to do it, fine. But your attitude says you pass judgment on everybody else based on your own narrow-minded opinion. You do not have the right to do that, because you don't know what you're talking about.
Here again you distort what I am saying, and you do it purposely, to try to put in my lips words I have not said. In English, this is also called slandering, but perhaps you are unacquainted with the word and its implications. I am not denying the right your many friends or acquaintances have to tattoo crosses, pictures of their mothers or whatever they want to tattoo on their bodies. They are perfectly entitled to do that if they so wish. There are many persons too who are in favor of homosexual marriages (New York have recently approved a law in this respect) and there are thousands, all over the world, that proclaim their pro-abortion attitude. But it does not follow that I have to agree with them or that I cannot express what I think of these people.
I do not agree with either of them as I do not agree with the kind of tattoos we are talking about. I think I clearly say that “it is just a matter of good taste and respect as far as I am concerned� and I am as allowed to say so as you are to say the contrary.
I think that you, out of a certain amount of conceit, also tend to pretend that your opinion is the right one while other points of view are definitely wrong. When you say that “There is no qualitative difference between wearing a cross around someone's neck. And having a picture of a cross on one's arm.� You should add something like “in my opinion�, otherwise, you are asserting that only what you say is right…
But you do not have the right to judge anyone else's attitude toward the cross or the Lord who died on it based on your own knee-jerk opinion. For that matter, you do not have the right to judge my friend who has a picture of his dead mother on his arm.
I repeat I am not judging anyone else's attitude towards the cross or anything else, for what matters.
I think, using your own line, that this certainly is your “knee-jerk� opinion.
I said before I do not agree with either abortation or homosexual marriages. Unfortunately, both are legal in my country and in many States of yours. But I still say, along with thousands of others all over the world, that I DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS FASHION. However, I DO NOT JUDGE THOSE WHO ARE IN FAVOR. There will be Someone Else Who will, eventually, judge them all right! SO why should I?
Nevertheless, you seem to believe you are entitled to not only judge my opinions but to transform them into value judgements I have never expressed. Slightly unfair, is not it?
BTW, I do not see why you have so much interest in boasting about your “easily-accesible profile�. Using the same words you used the other day, I could not care less. I'm 85 years, doctorate in Economics (emeritus) by the Sorbonne, in Paris; AB in Humanities and Theology, by the Eberhard Karls University, in Tübingen (Baden-Würtemberg), plus some other minor degrees that do not matter now. Can communicate in 6 languages, but I do not think it necessary to advertise it anywhere, like others obviously like to do.
“generally esthetic" is a meaningless phrase. If you mean, generally-accepted standards of good taste and conduct, then you're the one who's wrong, because attitudes toward things like tattoos have changed drastically. The generally-accepted view is much more lenient and accepting than yours is, so you are the one who's out of touch with the accepted norms.
If you think that “generally esthetic� is a meaningless phrase, I salute you for your English knowledge while advising you to contact the Merriam Webster directors because the definition is theirs. As for your statements that it is I who is wrong “, …because attitudes toward things like tattoos have changed drastically…� I am afraid you are a little bit too optimistic.
We are a bit more than 6 billion people in this beautiful world of ours and I have considerable doubts that the majority of this population has changed “drastically� their attitudes towards tattooing… I think you are somewhat influenced by the Hollywood series LA Ink…

I would be very interested to know how old you think I am. How you or I was brought up has nothing to do with it. What counts is who we are now and how we relate to the world around us. That seems to be something you're not very good at, at least if the above comments about me are any indication.

Last but not least, I do not know how old you are, though I have the feeling you are younger than I am, which is not difficult, bearing in mind my age and your apparent intolerance.
We old people are rather tolerant with our neighbors.

Furthermore, and contrary to what you opinate, how we have been brought up has a lot to do with what we may be now. Who we are now, depends to a large extent, upon the education we have received and upon our family background.

Reputed educational psychologists, such as the Swiss Jean William Fritz Piaget, has sustained and his colleagues still do, more than ever, “that most people understand and accept the fundamental role education plays in supporting our growth, conditioning our adult behavior and controlling our regeneration as a nation�

Cordially yours,
Gromitt 82

Quoting Dwashbur

My dear and angry friend,

I don't know where you get the notion that I'm angry. I'm amused.


Let us go on with our interesting debate:

“Asking a legitimate question about the basis of your preference constitutes liking to argue. Oooookay.�
To avoid unnecessary discussions, I shall simply copy forwith the Dictionary Thesaurus definition of “to argue�

Nice waste of bandwidth. You know what I meant. And your comments implied "argue" in a negative sense. Quit dodging the ramifications of your own words.

[snip]

“I find it astonishing that cracking a dumb joke makes me an atheist. I could squawk to the moderators about such blatant abuse, but I choose to laugh instead�

When someone says he couldn't care less about Catholicism and a other Christian denominations, as you did in your past answer the other day, I think it is legitimate to wonder what kind of faith that person has, if any!

The arrogance of this statement defies description. Some of the best jokes I know about Catholicism come from my Catholic friends. It's a shame you can't enjoy your faith in such a way; you must be a very unhappy person.


On the other hand, “cracking a dumb joke about ANY religion� is not only a lack of respect for that religion, whichever, but also an abuse. Yet, I will follow your example and I will laugh instead, for laughing is very healthy.

Considering that the above makes no sense at all, I won't bother trying to comment.


Go read my profile before you make such ludicrous accusations

As a matter of principle, I do not read the profiles appearing in this type of forums or other social networks. I have been able to determine that some people just write down a number of assets which are only intended to satisfy their ego and impress others, which, of course, I am not saying it is your case…

Do you have any idea what you just said? "I don't bother finding out about people because they're going to lie anyway, so I just draw my own assumptions based on..." apparently, nothing. Are you for real?


On the other hand, saying that someone may be an Atheist or a Muslim is not ludicrously accusing him/her of anything, but just pointing out a possibility which, in my opinion, may be as insulting as if you would accuse me of being a Catholic. Alternatively, if you are a Christian, I do not understand how you dare “crack dumb jokes� regarding Catholics and pretend they are just for kicks…!

You are still making no sense. It's all right for you to accuse me of being an atheist or a Muslim because you don't like the fact that I use humor to get my point across; but it's wrong for me to call you a Catholic even though you referred to yourself that way five times in three posts? I have no idea what you just said, and I seriously doubt whether you do, either.



Then you must have a pretty low opinion of your mother. I know plenty of people who have done just that as a way to honor and remember their mothers. You are telling them all, with a handful of keystrokes, that their tributes to their mothers are actually disrespectful. Why don't you go spit in their faces while you're at it? If you don't want to do it, fine. But your attitude says you pass judgment on everybody else based on your own narrow-minded opinion. You do not have the right to do that, because you don't know what you're talking about.
Here again you distort what I am saying, and you do it purposely, to try to put in my lips words I have not said. In English, this is also called slandering, but perhaps you are unacquainted with the word and its implications.

You're the one slandering people, because you set yourself up in judgment over them and their motives. But I've noticed a lot of projection going on in your posts; maybe you should look that word up in a psychology book.


I am not denying the right your many friends or acquaintances have to tattoo crosses, pictures of their mothers or whatever they want to tattoo on their bodies. They are perfectly entitled to do that if they so wish. There are many persons too who are in favor of homosexual marriages (New York have recently approved a law in this respect) and there are thousands, all over the world, that proclaim their pro-abortion attitude. But it does not follow that I have to agree with them or that I cannot express what I think of these people.
I do not agree with either of them as I do not agree with the kind of tattoos we are talking about. I think I clearly say that “it is just a matter of good taste and respect as far as I am concerned� and I am as allowed to say so as you are to say the contrary.

You don't deny their right, but you do declare them to have no taste or respect. No matter how much you try to polish it, that's what you're saying. You are saying "My opinion is the baseline against which all good taste and respect are to be judged, and these people have been found lacking."


I think that you, out of a certain amount of conceit, also tend to pretend that your opinion is the right one while other points of view are definitely wrong. When you say that “There is no qualitative difference between wearing a cross around someone's neck. And having a picture of a cross on one's arm.� You should add something like “in my opinion�, otherwise, you are asserting that only what you say is right…

There's that projection again. Either one is displaying a cross. You have not shown otherwise. Unless you can do so, I will accept your apology and your admission that you were wrong.


But you do not have the right to judge anyone else's attitude toward the cross or the Lord who died on it based on your own knee-jerk opinion. For that matter, you do not have the right to judge my friend who has a picture of his dead mother on his arm.
I repeat I am not judging anyone else's attitude towards the cross or anything else, for what matters.

Declaring their use of a tattoo of the cross to be in bad taste and disrespectful isn't judging. Uh-huh. Get your dictionary out again. That's exactly what it is.


I think, using your own line, that this certainly is your “knee-jerk� opinion.
I said before I do not agree with either abortation or homosexual marriages. Unfortunately, both are legal in my country and in many States of yours. But I still say, along with thousands of others all over the world, that I DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS FASHION. However, I DO NOT JUDGE THOSE WHO ARE IN FAVOR. There will be Someone Else Who will, eventually, judge them all right! SO why should I?
Nevertheless, you seem to believe you are entitled to not only judge my opinions but to transform them into value judgements I have never expressed. Slightly unfair, is not it?

You just equated your opinion with God's. You also equated getting a tattoo of the Cross with abortion and homosexual marriages. But you're not judging. Oh, sure.


BTW, I do not see why you have so much interest in boasting about your “easily-accesible profile�. Using the same words you used the other day, I could not care less. I'm 85 years, doctorate in Economics (emeritus) by the Sorbonne, in Paris; AB in Humanities and Theology, by the Eberhard Karls University, in Tübingen (Baden-Würtemberg), plus some other minor degrees that do not matter now. Can communicate in 6 languages, but I do not think it necessary to advertise it anywhere, like others obviously like to do.

I can see why you don't talk about those things in a Christianity forum, because for discussing Christianity they have no bearing. My degrees do. I told you to check my profile because you attacked my beliefs, my education, and my age, while knowing nothing at all about me. I suggested that you find out something about me before you make such accusations. Apparently, asking you to understand what you're talking about constitutes "boasting." So be it. I'm boasting: understand what you're talking about before you attempt to abuse me any further.

[snip]


I think you are somewhat influenced by the Hollywood series LA Ink…


Once again, you spout off without knowledge. I know nothing at all about the "Hollywood series" you mention, because I don't watch television. Again, I suggest you understand what you're talking about before you say something.


I would be very interested to know how old you think I am. How you or I was brought up has nothing to do with it. What counts is who we are now and how we relate to the world around us. That seems to be something you're not very good at, at least if the above comments about me are any indication.

Last but not least, I do not know how old you are, though I have the feeling you are younger than I am, which is not difficult, bearing in mind my age and your apparent intolerance.
We old people are rather tolerant with our neighbors.

Surely you jest. You're the one being intolerant of current attitudes toward tattoing. Again I suggest you look up the psychological meaning of "projection."


Furthermore, and contrary to what you opinate,

"opinate"??

This is getting nowhere. Feel free to have the last word; I'm sure it will be reasonably incomprehensible.

To Grommit and DW -

I've now spent 20-30 precious minutes of my life reading the stuff each of you has posted.

Clearly, there's a bit of a language problem here, but, more importantly, you happen to be two of the best posters on this board.

It's interesting to follow how something as insignificant and basically silly as a tattoo can lead to such flame - even among co-religionists, (Christian).

From one who has often been a point of controversy here, I hope the two of you can just stop arguing, shake hands, and find those important areas where you agree.

You each bring a lot to the table and the thoughtful ones here are the better for your contributions.

Athos,
Thanks for the kind words. I've already stated my intention to bow out of that particular discussion with grommit. It's clearly getting off the actual topic.

Annnnnyway...

Is a cross tattoo a sin? I don't think so...
People wear cross'es as jewellery don't they? A lot of christains wear cross necklaces as a symbol they are christian. People wear tattoo as a symbol. I know a guy in my church that has a cross on this forearm and I've seen it several times - no one has said anything to him.

I don't know where you get the notion that I'm angry. I'm amused.

This is getting nowhere. Feel free to have the last word; I'm sure it will be reasonably incomprehensible.


• Συγχαρητήρια

My dear DLW,

First of all, let me tell you I have finally consulted your profile and I have been very pleasantly surprised by your credentials.

In the first place, I salute in you a linguistic scholar, as I think I am too, but, in your case, of a much higher level. While there are thousands that speak and/or are fluent in some modern languages, as I may be, I do not think there are so many who are conversant in Biblical languages as Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, as you are!

Holy mackerel!

As you no doubt know, in the cloister of the Church of the Pater Noster, in the Mount of Olives, in Jerusalem, the Lord’s Prayer appears written in some 60 languages, amongst them, in the original Aramaic Jesus used with his disciples.

Each time I have gone to Israel I have bemoaned that I could not read the Lord’s Prayer in either one of the 3 Biblical languages appearing there… especially, in Aramaic.

As a lover of languages, I must say I envy you with all my heart for this rather extraordinary feat. Now I can understand why you can surely boast of belonging into a very rare category of people.

One of my best friends –Mosen Deig, former bishop of Solsona- who died some 7 years ago, could read Aramaic –although he was not an expert- and he had always told me it was a beautiful language.

It had to be. It was chosen by Jesus…!

I was helping my friend, to the best of my possibilities -which are not many- in his arduous task of translating into Catalan, Saint Thomas Aquinas’ “Summa Theologica”.

A pity, we could not finish that challenge because of his premature death…!

But stop my being carried away by divagations nobody is interested in…

What I wanted to tell you is how pleased I am to see that we are both on the same boat, i.e. we are both Christians… Not only, you are undoubtedly a better one than I am (not difficult, anyway), for, at least, you are a learned person who is spending his life by digging into the origins of our Religion, which is a most praiseworthy mission.

Consequently, as of now, I quit our previous debate which no longer interests me.

I am sure you will agree with me that it is a sheer waste of time for us to get involved into some silly question like “tattooing”… when we both have other better things to do!

You have your ideas about tattoos and I have mine. And that is it!
Besides, It may well be that I am all wet, for I happen to be wrong more often than not. II do not care admitting it, though.

Man was created imperfect, and I am a good instance of that…

On the other hand, as I said before, I am sure you have much better things to do than going on with our meaningless quarrel.

As far as I am concerned, and if nothing else, I must pay attention to another job where I am involved since a few years ago.

The “Romanitische Abteilung” of the German Fribourg University, has been working on a project which investigates the origins of the Catalan and Spanish languages. As you know, both are Romanesque languages with a common denominator, i.e. their Latin origin. The point lies, however, in determining whether Catalan influenced old Spanish (Castillian), way back in the 9th Century or if it was the other way round. I am helping from the Catalan side, this language being my mother language. This has no consequential significance except for some Catalan politicians. Thus, why some of us are keen on trying to prove whether this is true or not.

Consequently, and not wanting any more discussions over inconsequential matters, I present you my sincere apologies for whatever disturbance I may have caused you.

Best regards, and as I have tried to write you at the beginning in my almost non existing Greek, Congratulations!
Gromitt82

To Grommit and DW -

I've now spent 20-30 precious minutes of my life reading the stuff each of you has posted.

Clearly, there's a bit of a language problem here, but, more importantly, you happen to be two of the best posters on this board.

It's interesting to follow how something as insignificant and basically silly as a tattoo can lead to such flame - even among co-religionists, (Christian).

From one who has often been a point of controversy here, I hope the two of you can just stop arguing, shake hands, and find those important areas where you agree.

You each bring a lot to the table and the thoughtful ones here are the better for your contributions.

Dear Athos (are you a relative of Aramis or Portos?)

Thank you for your fine piece of wisdom! It is obvious to me now I have let myself being involved into a silly debate as you point out. However, one of my many faults, defects or flaws is that I tend to dislike being defeated in any intellectual debate of sorts.

However, the danger of further debating on this subject is gone. Common sense -which happens to be less common than most people think- has come back aided by the fact I have been able to trace down some of the credentials my previous opponent has.

With the result I have sent him a thread which you may see, if you wish, right here.

I am sorry for the valuable minutes you have lost trying to understand how 2 perfectly normal people have been able to waste so much time on something "silly" as tattoos!

Gromitt82

• Συγχαρητήρια

Χαίρε, αδελφέ

(greetings, brother!)


we are both Christians… Not only, you are undoubtedly a better one than I am

I agree we're both Christians, but don't bet the farm on that last part!

Dear Athos (are you a relative of Aramis or Portos?)

Thank you for your fine piece of wisdom! It is obvious to me now I have let myself being involved into a silly debate as you point out. However, one of my many faults, defects or flaws is that I tend to dislike being defeated in any intelectual debate of sorts.

However, the danger of further debating on this subject is gone. Common sense -which happens to be less common than most people think- has come back aided by the fact I have been able to trace down some of the credentials my previous opponent has.

With the end result I have sent him a thread which you may see, if you wish, right here.

I am sorry for the valuable minutes you have lost trying to understand how 2 perfectly normal people have been able to waste so much time on something "silly" as tattoos!

Gromitt82

Yes, my "Athos" refers to the 3 Musketeers. Some time ago, one of the more erudite members here thought it referred to Mt. Athos - the peninsula jutting out into the Aegean Sea and inhabited by Orthodox monks.

A good friend of mine who was a Trappist monk, Basil Pennington - now deceased - spent a year on Mt. Athos and wrote an interesting book about his experience.

As an educated European from Spain, you may be aware of Basil who was translated into many languages. If not, Mt. Athos would not be unfamiliar to you.

I note that Catalan is your original language. Thomas Merton was born in a Catalan-speaking area of France just north of the Pyrenees.

I hope that you will continue to post here from time to time. Like many internet boards, intelligence is a prized, sometimes rare, commodity.

I trust that you and Dwashbur, another excellent contributor here, will not now flame on who is the most humble. :)

Χαίρε, αδελφέ

(greetings, brother!)



I agree we're both Christians, but don't bet the farm on that last part!

Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ, Dave,

What matters, I think, is that we are both on the same boat and even it may have different decks or stateroom classes, we are ALL hoping to arrive one day to the same Harbor
It is undoubtedly there where our many questions will at last be answered and where we should ALL be speaking the same language, hopefully Aramaic!
Regards
Claude

PS: How do you write "thank you very much" in Aramaic?

Yes, my "Athos" refers to the 3 Musketeers. Some time ago, one of the more erudite members here thought it referred to Mt. Athos - the peninsula jutting out into the Aegean Sea and inhabited by Orthodox monks.

A good friend of mine who was a Trappist monk, Basil Pennington - now deceased - spent a year on Mt. Athos and wrote an interesting book about his experience.

As an educated European from Spain, you may be aware of Basil who was translated into many languages. If not, Mt. Athos would not be unfamiliar to you.

I note that Catalan is your original language. Thomas Merton was born in a Catalan-speaking area of France just north of the Pyrenees.

I hope that you will continue to post here from time to time. Like many internet boards, intelligence is a prized, sometimes rare, commodity.

I trust that you and Dwashbur, another excellent contributor here, will not now flame on who is the most humble. :)

Well, probably said member was more knowledgeable in Geography than in Literature. I am sure that in Spain, most of those who know the names of the 3 Musketeers (who, as you know, were actually 4) is because they have seen the movie where Gene Kelly was playing the role of D’Artagnan, but few have actually read the splendid novel of Alexandre Dumas, Sr. and its sequels: “twenty years after” and “the Vicomte of Bragelonne”.

As for Mt. Athos, or the “Holy Mountain”, as many Greeks like to commonly refer to it, unfortunately I have never been there, even though I have been close to it, on my way to Thessaloniki (the administrative capital of Macedonia and Thrace). Problem is that I was always on business and could not spare the time to visit some of the monasteries.

I have always been very interested in the Orthodox branch of Christianity. I hope the Pope will not read this but I would say that a little bit more true “ecumenism “on our side would not hurt anybody and would most probably please our “Big Boss”…

But, alas! The high dignitaries of our RC Church are not necessarily exempt of a fair amount of arrogance…!

My wife’s cousin, the Archbishop of Tarragona, Dr. Joseph Pont I Gol (1907-1995) gave me a little book written by Dom. Basil Pennington, titled “Daily we follow Him: Learning Discipleship from Peter” and advised me to read it, which I have not yet. Not only, I am ashamed to say, that a few years ago, at a Book Fair, in Barcelona, a bought another book by him “La oración centrante” (Centering Prayer), which is sleeping, next to the other, somewhere in my library. It is a shame to see the amount of books I have I will never read because my eyes are getting more tired, every year!

When I was “young and handsome” I had to travel all over the world to earn a living, so I read mostly on planes and in hotel rooms. I kept buying books, though, for I always thought that a good book is a “man’s most loyal friend”.

Spare time was, obviously, devoted to my wife and sons, whom I could not see as much as I wanted. When I retired, I started to devour books but then I became involved in other tasks such as helping another bishop, friend of mine, to translate St. Thomas Aquinas, or investigating the origin of my language. So, here I am, losing sight but still surrounded by hundreds of loyal friends… and by my wife, the same one, after 61 years of happy marriage.

Re. rapist monk Thomas Merton I became acquainted with his well gained reputation, during our yearly visits to Prades, where he was born.

In the mid fifties, while General Franco was ruling in Spain, one of the world’s most famous cellists, Pau Casals, was an ardent supporter of the Republican government in the exile. Casals had vowed never to return to Spain until our democracy could not be restored. So he settled in the town of Prades (Prada de Conflent, in French) because if was so close to the Catalonia he loved, and because he, like many Catalans supporters of its utopian independence, Prades is also part of North Catalonia, which stretches all over the Roussillon (Dept. of Pyrenees Orientales).

During the month of August, Casals used to organize periodical concerts in Prades, which were attended by thousands (us, for instance) and were a true joy to listen to (especially, when he played J.S.Bach)...

And this is why I became acquainted with Fr. Thomas Merton.

I may only add, that since Casals passed away in Puerto Rico (his mother was a Portoricain) almost every year, in summer time, Prades celebrates the Pau Casals festival, which, reputed cellists like Matislaw Rostropovich (1927-2007), use to also attend.

Prades is a beautiful part of the French side of the Pyrenees, close to another interesting little town, the mysterious Rennes-le-Chateau, whose history I may refer some other time to.

Best regards
Gromitt82

I trust that you and Dwashbur, another excellent contributor here, will not now flame on who is the most humble. :)

I suppose we could start such a banter, just to irritate you :D

I don't think it is a sin I think it is a sin to damage your vody and get other things but to repersent your religion is a different thing

Lord have Mercy on our souls
Jesus Christ was crucified and the Crucifixion was a tool used thousands of years so I am not sure why is the cross a simple to Christianity unless we believe in King Constantine’s dream more than three hundred years on the Crucifixion, however; it is not the question
If you a human like us, then we all are sinner, after all, we just humans. Now; a tattoo today is a sign of culture in some places and not necessary a bad thing and even when God asked the Jews not to mark themselves at the time of the killings which God send his angels to do on his behalf; he asked them to mark their houses with blood (a Scurfy). Now I am not sure why something beautiful like that could be a sin when it do not harm your body which is the reason why it was not a likely thing back in the time, because today there is since and medical treatments so no longer tattoos hurt our bodies. I would understand it back then where people were hurt when did that and infection and even maybe death happen, but today? No!
A tattoo of a cross is your choice but I hope it is something you see beautiful not a sign of religious because a sign of religious is more than a cross; it is what we do, not what we say….

Be blessed

Sam

Ok, look. What does it matter?

I hope you all realize that all sins are the same to Gods eyes.
What if I told you yes? What would you do?
If you would just not get them,
Explain why you lied the last time if you knew it was wrong?
Everyone sins AT LEAST 1 time in their life (except Jesus).
So if you know that you repented and God forgave you,
Why would you care if it's a sin? Wouldn't God
Forgive you anyway?
I'm not saying you have to get tattoos. It's graffiti on the temple of God.
That's like saying "Is lying a sin?"
If somebody said yes, would you never lie for the rest of your life? I doubt it for 99% of you, unless you're Abraham Lincoln or somebody that never lied.

I am also Baptist. Before I got mine I read some of the verses people have quoted on here. If I based my decision on these verses I would not shave since the verse before Leviticus 19:28 (19:27) says "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard". I believe there is also a verse that says not to mix what you plant in your crops or materials you make your clothes out of. It boils down to personal conviction. Between you and God. A lot of people, Pastors and others, pull out 1 verse to back up their personal beliefs. They don't like tattoo's or body piercings so they find something to back that up. Also, I hope whoever is saying a tattoo is a sin does not have any body piercings, including earrings. It is between you and God. Nobody else. Anyone else is just passing on their personal feelings as truths. Probably the same people saying electric guitars and drums have no place in a church...

I am also Baptist. Before I got mine I read some of the verses people have quoted on here. If I based my decision on these verses I would not shave since the verse before Leviticus 19:28 (19:27) says "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard". I believe there is also a verse that says not to mix what you plant in your crops or materials you make your clothes out of. It boils down to personal conviction. Between you and God. A lot of people, Pastors and others, pull out 1 verse to back up their personal beliefs. They don't like tattoo's or body piercings so they find something to back that up. Also, I hope whoever is saying a tattoo is a sin does not have any body piercings, including earrings. It is between you and God. Nobody else. Anyone else is just passing on their personal feelings as truths. Probably the same people saying electric guitars and drums have no place in a church...

Unbelievable that people still mix law with Grace. It is embarrassing at best. Having said that... we are to be in this world not OF this world. As long as I don't look like I belong to this present world in how I speak, what I listen to... or what I chose to look like as a Christian it is all good. We are called to be salt and light. I would no more wear long dresses and covering on my head to make someone thirsty for Christ than I would put a tattoo of a snake down my arms. I want people to see Christ... not self. BOTH are self. But that's just me.

I will be making my first post on here even though I am sure that the OP has already maade the choice on whether or not to get the tattoo. I only want to point out one thing that has never been talked about in any conversation that I have looked at on if getting a tattoo is a sin. In Leviticus 19:28 the verse states that A person should not put marks on them for those that are dead. Well JESUS IS RISEN! (I put that in caps because it is the most important thing in my sinful life.) Is Jesus has risen then he Defeated death so therefore IMO getting a tattoo to honor Jesus victory at Calvary is not in violation of Leviticus 19:28. This is just strictly my opinion as I am not God nor do I even deserve interperting his word.(I only will because I am filled with the Holy Spirt to Guide me). I just want to add this to Remind people that Jesus DEFEATED death so I feel that it is OK.

With Love, Forgivness, and Peace
nicholsjj

The original manuscript has the word torrah in it over fifty times torrah can mean rules or instructions, pretty much I believe the bible is a guideline to a better life, but some people take it so hardcore that a war starts over religion yet again. To answer the question no I think its fine to get a tattoo of a cross for god gave you the power of free will, your not going to hell just cause you got a tattoo, and if people judge you at your church remember the bible says those who judge shall be judged

A tattoo marks the skin, not the soul. Mine is a reminder of God's grace to me a sinner. And in the world when people ask me what it means I tell them the truth. Yes a cross hangs upside down on my chest, but it is for the reminder I am not worthy to bare His mark, and the cool part is when I see it on my chest it is upright a constant reminder of His love and mercy. The broken angel wing represents sin and desire and it leading to death, the full wing wrapping around me represent God's protection. The feathers have bible verses in them and the sword is on fire because His word is living.

If I could take a picture and post it on here I would.

Much love to my brothers and sisters, and remember God chose all the people not just the ones with clean skin and pure hearts. True repentance is key, as He told us "go and sin no more"

Read text in context, leviticus was moses teaching the israelites laws from god, its not relevant to present times.
If you think it is then you should try and follow other leviticus verses which say you shouldn't trim sides of your beard or wear clothes with two types of material example cotton and polyester on same clothes.
I'm baptist and I have a tattoo and its I know its fine to have it because of READING TEXT IN CONTEXT

It's true Leviticus 19 says not to mark yourself. If you believe in following the letter of the law, you cannot get a tattoo. 6 verses after God tell us not to eat meat that isn't kosher.

I'm guessing somewhere along the line, our astute christian ancestors realized bacon was just too tasty to continue following that foney bologna old jewish "custom".

The moral of my story is - if you wear cotton blends and eat pork, you're already going to hell. Might as well show Jesus and everyone else how much you love him while you're doing it with your cross tattoo.

It's true Leviticus 19 says not to mark yourself. If you believe in following the letter of the law, you cannot get a tattoo. 6 verses after God tell us not to eat meat that isn't kosher.

I'm guessing somewhere along the line, our astute christian ancestors realized bacon was just too tasty to continue following that foney bologna old jewish "custom".

The moral of my story is - if you wear cotton blends and eat pork, you're already going to hell. Might as well show Jesus and everyone else how much you love him while you're doing it with your cross tattoo.

I agree we are NOT under the law any longer. I am really really big on getting that. Having said that, we are in this world not of this world. Sometimes there are things even the sinful world looks down upon. Marking your bodies happens to be one of them for some people. Non Christians can think them ungodly and wrong. We are FREE in Christ Jesus... but sometimes it just isn't the best thing to do for a testimony. Is it a sin? NO. Is it STILL considered wrong.. by the world itself? Sometimes, yes it is. Whatsoever is done without faith is sin.(Romans) If someone doesn't have a conscience about it... for that person it is OK. For the ones that cannot do it in good faith... don't. All things are lawful for the Christian, all things are not expedient. Not my words... but the Apostle Paul.

I agree we are NOT under the law any longer. I am really really big on getting that. Having said that, we are in this world not of this world. Sometimes there are things even the sinful world looks down upon. Marking your bodies happens to be one of them for some people. Non Christians can think them ungodly and wrong. We are FREE in Christ Jesus...but sometimes it just isn't the best thing to do for a testimony. Is it a sin? NO. Is it STILL considered wrong..by the world itself? Sometimes, yes it is. Whatsoever is done without faith is sin.(Romans) If someone doesn't have a conscience about it... for that person it is ok. For the ones that cannot do it in good faith...don't. All things are lawful for the Christian, all things are not expedient. Not my words...but the Apostle Paul.
Well said.

At that time in history (Leviticus), "marking" your body was a pagan practice. Their tattoos were VERY different than how we tattoo today. Not only was it pagan, it was not safe. That aside, we cannot live our lives against tattoos because it used to represent paganism. The wedding ring is originally pagan. The church steeple is from pagan origin. Almost all our holidays were originally pagan, including church buildings as well. Now, Christmas isn't viewed as pagan at all... we use it as a time to remember Christ's sacrifice. The church buildings aren't associated with other dieties; we worship the Lord there, and pray for His blessing. The wedding ring is perhaps one of the most sacred vows, often made in a church, before God. And God Himself said that marriage between a man and a woman is a beautiful thing... does it become un-beautiful because we have a piece of metal on our fingers? No. He said "make a joyful noise unto the Lord", he did not say "be perfect at singing; only sing hymns from Luther's timeframe." We are IN this world, not of it, so why do I hear all these Christians caring so much that the non-believers will look down on them? Don't they already?

If you are getting that tattoo to honour God, then it is to honour God, NOT because of what the world will think.
If you are getting that tattoo (or not) because of what the world will think, then it is not to honour God, but to appease the very people we should be making a ministry to.

I play Christian death metal. BOTH Christians AND non-Christians look down on it and me because of it, but I am spreading the Word of God the best I know how. Do you know why it doesn't get me down that Christians and non-believers look down on me? Because I am doing it for the Lord, not for man.

Look inside yourself; do you go to a church to worship God, or to practice Paganism? Why do you celebrate Christmas? Why do you wear that wedding band? Why are you getting that cross tattoo?

There are three categories:
1. Doing something that honours God.
2. Doing something that is neutral.
3. Doing something that is sinful.

Live your life accordingly and for God, not what people think of you. God warns about just going through the motions anyway.

Hi there. I attend church regularly and love the Lord and have wanted a tattoo for of the cross for over 20 years. However because the church has frowned on it I don't have one.
What a poor witness to let friends know we would love a tattoo but the church wouldn't like it.
Good people and bad people have tattoos. For me its about motive and we are accountable to God for our actions.
At 61 Im now going to have a tattoo of the cross and guess what? My relationship with God hasn't changed.

Snippy07,

In the OT under the Law the Lord told the Jewish people not to mark on their bodies.
Check out Leviticus 19:28

"'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

This is the verse that someone might use to suggest it is a SIN. BUT we are no longer under the law...we live on this side of the cross under Grace. You will find nothing in the NT to suggest it is a sin.

I think of this verse that Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 10

"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.

Personally I wouldn't have one although I don't think it is a sin. I guess I don't like what tattoo's represent to the world in general.

However ,any tattoo that would be dishonoring to the Lord...such as satanic symbols and sexual stuff..well I think it goes without saying would be wrong for a Christian to put on their body.

You say we are not under the Law. Why did Jesus say that one dotting of a I or one crossing of a t would not be taken from the Law until ALL be fulfilled.

People in Old Testament times kept a physical Law and when one would sin they would have to atone for that sin by a sacrifice. They had to physically show repentance.

Jesus was the last sacrifice and it was one time and for all. You are still under the Laws of God but they are now kept in the spirit. When one is broken go to Christ in prayer and He will take care of it, no physical sacrifice.

Do you Kill, steel, commit adultery, theses are still the Laws of God and they are not done away.

Freeman,

you misunderstand me and the bible. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law. We couldn't, can't, won't.. it is just the way it is. The Apostle Paul made it VERY clear in the book of romans the law written on stones was the ministry of death. I didn't say it.. he did. We are under Grace... which is a much higher calling than the law. So no, I don't steal kill, commit adultery and the likes. Jesus came and set me free, he gave me a free gift of HIS righteousness. Grace is a much better deal. Besides the ONLY reason the law was given in the first place was so that man could figure out he was sunk and couldn't live up to it. Do you know Paul actually says that the strength of sin is the law. Repeat that slowly and let it get down into you. That is a pretty big, bold , shocking statement for those who believe they are still under the law.

Freeman4,

There is no question that the value Jesus places on the commandments of God is also unmistakable—as well as the high esteem toward the law He requires from all those who teach in His name.
Consequently, since Jesus obeyed these commandments, it follows that His servants, too, must keep the same commandments and teach others to do the same (1 John 2:2-6).
It is in this way that the true ministers of Christ are to be identified—by their following the example He set for them (John 13:15)

Now, in my opinion, this poses two further considerations:

1st - we must be very cautious when determining what goes against the Law and what does not. Our own judgement and or our criterion based on our social environment may not be sufficient basis to establish someone else's behavior as sinful. More often than not we have a tendency to qualify as sinful those attitudes that seem to shatter our traditional customs. Not only, on these occasions we consider ourselves in possession of the absolute truth...

Pope Francis has recently given us a wonderful example of what I'm saying when he said ""If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge?"

I do not see eye to eye on the gay movement but Pope Francis is cautioning about dooming them all just because they are gay...

The second consideration, on the other hand, is more important or so I think. Jesus made quite clear that those who teach the Law should be the first one to abide by it. Exactly as it should happen when speaking of our politics...

And yet, many of our politics and Jesus' ministers keep telling us what we should do and how we should walk the line while they DO NOT put their money where their mouth is!!

This said, it goes without saying that none of the ten Commandments is done away. And that the 11th one " Love one another. As I have loved you" (John 13:35-35).

We all fail to comply with this last one!

Gromitt82

ClassyT

I have the feeling that both you and Freeman4 are debating the subject of the Law for the sake of one showing to the other that "I'm right and you are wrong"

Is it that important? The Lord gave us 10 Commandments + 1 to abide by them. And He had set us free. Free to conduct and manage our life the way we want. And He also gives His Grace to those that truly have faith in Him. But that does not mean we can rely on His Grace but do what we want... for there will come a time when we ALL will be judge by our Faith and by our deeds... and it will be then when "There will be weeping, and gnashing of teeth ... (Luke 13:28)

Gromitt82

Grommit,

I think it is VERY important we understand Grace. The 10 commandments according to MY bible were not given to make me good by abiding by them. The 10 commandments were given so that I would come to the end of myself and realize I needed a savior. PERIOD. The strength of sin is the law. How is it you can say the Lord gave us the 10 to abide by them? In fact, man couldn't keep them. Jesus was sent to live a perfect life and fulfilled the law, and was judged in our place. I don't believe a person can fully appreciate or live the Christian life the way it was meant to be lived if he doesn't understand GRACE. So yes Mr. Gromitt, I think it is VERY important. It isn't about being right or wrong... it is about understanding GRACE vs Law. It is a BIG deal.

Paul says repeatedly that nobody will be saved by keeping the law. It stands to reason that they won't be kept by keeping the law, either. Why did Jesus say the law had to be fulfilled? Because he fulfilled it. He even told us so: he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.

The next question is, what does "fulfill" mean? Does it mean we have to keep all the commandments? And sorry to disappoint you, Grommit, but the people to whom the Law was given say there are more than just ten commandments; in fact, there are 613. Do you keep all of them? As T has said many times, the sting of the law is sin. Why? Because the law exposes our sin and shows us our need for a savior. As she said, the law brings us to the end of ourselves and the point where we throw ourselves on His mercy and ask him to fix it.

Funny thing: once He fixes something, it's fixed. I can't break it again. I can knock it around, I can call it names, I can beat it with a hammer, but it's got the Jesus seal of approval and I can't even put a scratch on that. If you don't have that assurance, T and I will be glad to explain how you can get it.

ClassyT

I have the feeling that both you and Freeman4 are debating the subject of the Law for the sake of one showing to the other that "I'm right and you are wrong"

Is it that important? The Lord gave us 10 Commandments + 1 to abide by them. And He had set us free. Free to conduct and manage our life the way we want. And He also gives His Grace to those that truly have faith in Him. But that does not mean we can rely on His Grace but do what we want... for there will come a time when we ALL will be judge by our Faith and by our deeds... and it will be then when "There will be weeping, and gnashing of teeth ... (Luke 13:28)

Gromitt82

I just state what scripture says. If you are anyone else does not adhere to the Commandments of God that is your choice. Most individuals do not like to even talk about them because they are not keeping the 4th.commandment. That is to remember the Sabbath Day and keep it Holy" that is not Sunday. So for one to acknowledge the Commandments they would have to acknowledge the Seventh Day Sabbath.

Did Jesus lie when He said that He would stay in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights, just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish for 3days and 3nights. Please tell me how you can get 3 literal days and 3 literal nights from Friday at sundown till Sunday morning.

People say that it doesn't really matter. Then if it does not Jesus is a liar.

I just state what scripture says.

No, your approach is a prime example of how not to study the Bible.

To Dawshbur, ClassyT % Freeman4,

I am sorry but my theological knowledge is by and large obvously inferior to yours. Your statements and manifestations seem to pontificate over subjects which, I think, only our Lord has the true answers.

You are debating about concepts like Grace, Law and/or Sin as if your opinion would be the only valid one. This being the case I prefer to refrain from any further discussions in the conviction that neither you nor I can gain anything out of this written argument

My time down here is about to end (I'm 87) and, therefore, soon enough I will have (or rather my soul will) all the true answers to my present many questions.

I wish you all the very best,
Gromitt82

Mr. Gromitt,

I hope you are in good health for 87.. but I think you are wrong. I think the Lord did provide answers in his word if we are willing to search for them. Law, Grace and sin are important topics he would not have us ignorant on any of them. It isn't MY opinion that counts anyway. I didn't just give my opinion I backed it up with scripture and the apostle Paul instructed us to rightly divide the word of truth and to study it.

At any rate, I certainly wish you the best as well.

It's not about opinions. It's about truth and assurance. Hebrews 2 says that one of the reasons Jesus came was to deliver people from bondage to fear of death. The only sure way to overcome that fear is to KNOW that I've been forgiven, that I'm held in his hand and that NOTHING can take me out of his hand (see John 10). Too many people think they're saved by grace apart from works (Ephesians 2) but then think they have to work their behinds off to be kept in that grace. Um, grace is by definition UNMERITED. So how in the world can I do enough stuff to merit staying in God's UNMERITED grace? It doesn't make sense. That's not an opinion, that's basic logic.

87? I just turned 60 myself. I've literally been a believer my entire life, and I love the Bible, especially in its original languages. I hate theology. I have two points of theology for which I would be willing to endure martyrdom: 1. God exists, and 2. Jesus rose from the dead. Everything else is subject to study and further understanding. But the closer I get to my eternal destiny, the more I realize that I can live the joyous life that I do because He loves me unconditionally. Somewhere in the distant recesses of my childhood, I said "Please make me yours" and he did. And nothing's going to change that, because he said so in very plain terms. That's not an opinion. It's truth.

Dave,

Well between me and you, if I had YOUR theology... I would hate it too! Ha ha ha ha... yes, I am a HOOT or at least I think I am. :P

ClasyT

How is it you can say the Lord gave us the 10 to abide by them? In fact, man couldn't keep them. Jesus was sent to live a perfect life and fulfilled the law, and was judged in our place. I don't believe a person can fully appreciate or live the Christian life the way it was meant to be lived if he doesn't understand GRACE. So yes Mr. Gromitt, I think it is VERY important. It isn't about being right or wrong...it is about understanding GRACE vs Law. It is a BIG deal

Dear correspondent,

I have nothing to add to my previous answer to you. You are entitled to believe what you deem it more convenient and so am I.

I truly hope we both be right!

Gromitt82