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Madix
Aug 28, 2009, 09:58 PM
Im pretty sure my panels are wired wrong but I wanted to know the best way to fix them.
Right now I have two wires running from my main meter. One of the wires runs to my 100 amp panel that provides electricity to the entire house (except for the kitchen). The other wire runs to a panel with absolutely no main circuit breaker, there's a 6 gauge wire also attached to the main lugs alongside the main wires. This 6 gauge wire, 2 hot and 1 ground (with no neutral), runs from this panel to another panel in the garage with a 200 amp main breaker.

I already have another 100 amp panel and would prefer to use that to help fix the problem but I'm not sure exactly what the best way of doing it would be. I was thinking of using a 60amp 240v breaker on my new box to run to the garage and buying a separate wire just for the neutral rather than running all new wire to the garage.

In case you need to know, the service to my meter is 200 amp. The way they have the house wired has worked for at least 20 years.

This is a quick diagram of how the wires are hooked up. Thanks for the help

Madix
Aug 28, 2009, 10:19 PM
This is what I was planning on doing here (if having 2 panels is acceptable). I would prefer not to spend too much money since the old setup already works, plus I'm not liable if the house burns down since I didn't wire it and the house passed inspection when I bought it.

tkrussell
Aug 29, 2009, 03:43 AM
Who ever installed this should be prosecuted. If you let an electrical inspector look at this, he will shut it down immediately. This is how bad this is. And I don't care how long it has worked.

If the home was inspected by a home inspector, I doubt they would have picked up on this gross miswire.

You plan is fine in general.

Just adding a wire as a neutral is not allowed. The feeder cable will need to be replaced with a 4 wire cable.

The distance between the meter and both panels is an issue. Two 100 amp breakers needs to be down stream of the meter to protect each of the feeders going to the panels. These breakers need to be as close to the meter as possible. Most inspectors will allow no more than 10 feet of cable between a meter and Main Breakers, but this is not written down anywhere, so some may not even allow 10 feet.

Madix
Aug 29, 2009, 12:48 PM
Thanks for the quick response.

Im trying to renovate this house on a fixed budget. I had only planned on adding a few outlets to existing circuits but this project has turned into a major can of worms. One of the worst examples would be the kitchen on one 14g wire powering the fridge, dishwasher, microwave, and 3 heavily used outlets on a 30 amp circuit breaker.

I went to Lowe's today and priced the 6 gauge wire at around $300 for 75 feet. Im starting to wonder what my incentive is for fixing the problem if I didn't create it. Its going to cost me a lot of time and money to fix something that would probably end up going unnoticed when I sell the house. I understand I have a responsibility to disclose problems to another homeowner but Im not an electrician and I don't have the expertise to accuratly diagnose such issues. This is a 70 year old house after all, people that buy it should expect things to be less than code.

Unless there's a cheaper alternative I'm just going to be conscious of which plugs I'm using. I just wish there was a cheaper alternative to the 75 feet of 6-3 wire I would have to buy.

medic-dan
Aug 29, 2009, 01:15 PM
I can see your point about not wanting to bring it up to the latest code but it should be safe. You've identified the problem and you know it needs to be addressed.

Regardless, that is an outrageous price for wire. Try a real electrical supply store. I helped a friend put in a workshop sub panel about a month ago. We bought 300 feet of #4 thwn and 100 feet of #6 for less than $125. Even running conduit it's cheaper.

tkrussell
Aug 29, 2009, 01:26 PM
Raise the budget.

Budgets should be close to accurate, or higher.

Not sure what the ramifications are should someone knowingly not disclose a serious defect such as this.

I am not sure how to get across how bad this is. This is not a technicality or workmanship or one of those things we all know inspectors or electricians just hate, this is drop dead serious. Too small of wire is not even protected and has the potential of a serious overload, since there is no fuse, on a wire rated for 55 amps at best. Good fire starter.

Keep in mind, while a house can burn and get replaced by insurance, people cannot.

If nonmetallic cable, such as Romex , is allowed, then you can use #4-4 wire aluminum SER cable in place of the #6 cable.

Madix
Aug 29, 2009, 03:00 PM
When I went to Lowe's the guy there didn't really seem to know anything. He didn't even see a problem with the way the house was wired. When I asked him what wire I should run for a 60 amp subpanel he recommended the 6-3 copper wire at $3.80 a foot. I asked him if I could use aluminum instead but he
Said he didn't know anything about aluminum.

After reading your posts I think Ill go down to an electrical supply store sometime this week and price some aluminum.
I have one question though, would 60 amp aluminum wire fit onto a conventional 60 amp 240v breaker without using lugs? It seems like the wire is too big.

Thanks again for all your help. It was beginning to look like everyone I asked knew less about electricity than I do, which I guess is to be expected when you're surrounded by a bunch of dumb hicks.

Missouri Bound
Aug 29, 2009, 08:52 PM
The guys at Lowe's... or Home Depot, or any home improvement type store are great for telling you where things are... never rely on them for anything else. Consult an expert for what to do or buy... then ask the guys at Lowe's where it is in the store. That will exhaust their limits of expertise.

Madix
Aug 30, 2009, 01:12 PM
You mentioned earlier that the service panels need to be within 10 feet of the meter. Does that mean I have to move my existing panel that's about 15 feet away to a closer location?

It seems like a big pain to have to extend all those wires just for a couple feet.