Why do I swear on a bible in court when the Ten Commandments can not be displayed outside?

No need to swear on the bible at all: Your Options When Being Sworn In Before You Answer Questions In Court. | Criminal Law Canada (http://info.lawyershop.ca/criminal/index.php/archives/2009/02/10/your-options-when-being-sworn-in-before-you-answer-questions-in-court/)

No need to swear on the bible at all: Your Options When Being Sworn In Before You Answer Questions In Court. | Criminal Law Canada (http://info.lawyershop.ca/criminal/index.php/archives/2009/02/10/your-options-when-being-sworn-in-before-you-answer-questions-in-court/)

I don't let my spiritual beliefs pull me around life by the nose. I use the Creator's gift that I am endowed with to deal effectively, successfully and happily with my life here on this Earth. I do not use the Creation of my life to make excusses; I use it as an empowerment. I don't pray for help; I pray for greater challenges. I didn't come into life owing anything to anyone and I certainly don't owe anything to anybody who will not use their OWN incredible Creation of life to do for themselves. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ORIGINAL SIN. Morality for me does not come from a Bible; it comes from the nature of the being I am Created. After all, HE Created us just as we are long before the Bible was created

Wow that's quite a little rant that seem random to the question asked. Good for you I guess. I'm an atheist that doesn't get his morals from any creator, unless you count my parents as that. :)

Wow that's quite a little rant that seem random to the question asked. Good for you I guess. I'm an atheist that doesn't get his morals from any creator, unless you count my parents as that. :)

My beliefs on religion are simple. The Earth is a creation. And in order for there to be a creation, there must be a Creator.

Wasn't it Marlon Brando who had to testify in court but refused to swear on a bible. He said something like while I do believe in god, I do not believe in the same way as others, so I would prefer not to swear on the bible. I think they had some other thing to swear on I forget.

So, if I ever need to testify in court, what do I swear on? I don't have a religion. Can I bring a box of stones to swear on? Or a deck or tarot cards?

I don't know hheath but if you ever have to testify let me what they did. I'm an escapee from the catholic church.

I escaped from the mormon church. We can band together.

I'm the same as you guys and I believe it's the same in the US as in Canada, you make an oath of affirmation: Oath or affirmation legal definition of Oath or affirmation. Oath or affirmation synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary. (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Oath+or+affirmation)

I'm the same as you guys and I believe it's the same in the US as in Canada, you make an oath of affirmation: Oath or affirmation legal definition of Oath or affirmation. Oath or affirmation synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary. (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Oath+or+affirmation)

So I CAN'T swear on tarot cards?

Hmmm... if you try call me, I'd like to watch it. :)

I wonder if they let people take pictures and video in court? Probably not.

Yea, that's a big no-no in most places.

Darn it. And here I wanted to post the experience on YouTube.

The courts in the USA allow for "attestations" or "affirmations" instead of "sworn oaths" in case one feels they cannot swear due to religion, or does not wish to swear on a Bible. These "affirmations" have the same legal power as swearing on the Bible, and the pergury penalty for lying under "affirmation" is the same as for lying under oath. Swearing on a Bible is neither necessary nor required.

So I question the basis of the OP. I agree with the SENTIMENT of the post, but not the statement itself, which is demonstrably wrong.

More of an issue for me is the fact that CERTAIN religious symbols are not permitted in public court houses, but OTHERS are. The PC ones, like Islamic religious symbols are never challenged, by Jewish and Christian ones are challenged all the time. THAT seems hypocritical to me.

Elliot

The things that are tolerated in the United States by alien religions and cultures would NEVER be tolerated in MOST foreign countries. And yes, I said "alien".. this country ran along just fine having God fearing men as it's founding fathers. Now we have embraced every religion anyone wants to spew and drag over our borders. Of course, we must be PC as to not offend anyone with these beliefs and all the while our core religious belief system is flushed down the toilet and trampled on.

The things that are tolerated in the United States by alien religions and cultures would NEVER be tolerated in MOST foreign countries. And yes, I said "alien".. this country ran along just fine having God fearing men as it's founding fathers. Now we have embraced every religion anyone wants to spew and drag over our borders. Of course, we must be PC as to not offend anyone with these beliefs and all the while our core religious belief system is flushed down the toilet and trampled on.

Excuse me, are you aware that CHRISTIANITY is alien to america? It was brought over and FORCED on the indians.

Hi hheath,

Yes, I am aware that Christianity was brought here. The beginning of our government, of our Nation as it stands today, was implemented by God fearing men.. their Christian God. That is my point.

We could go as far back as when people, as some still do, believed that Odin and Thor and Freya were running things. And Christians forced their religion upon those folks too. BUT it goes in a direction that I wasn't. My point has to do with the beginning of this country we live in today.. The United States of America and how you shouldn't try to fix things that are not broken.

Actually, many of the founding fathers weren't christian at all. They were freemasons.

Just in case you don't believe me.

Masonic Foundations of the U.S. (http://watch.pair.com/mason.html)

actually, many of the founding fathers weren't christian at all. they were freemasons.

"Freemason" isn't a religion. Masons can be from ANY religion. They just have to believe in a "higher power/creator" of some sort. There are Masons from every religion on Earth. I have known Christian and Jewish Masons, and have heard of Muslim and Budhhist Masons, though I have never met one. (There are no Atheist Masons. The Masons require beliefe in SOME FORM of creator for entry into membership, which Atheists do not believe.)

While I believe that SOME of the Founders were indeed Masons, they were also predominantly CHRISTIANS, even the ones who were Masons.

There were a few Deists, a few Agnostics and Atheists, but primarily, they were Christians. I know that Atheists love to point to the fact that there were a few of their own among the Founders, but they were the VERY SMALL minority among the founders.

Elliot

Again, I am aware that some of the founding fathers were also freemasons. These men were also primarily Christians. (I am Not saying all freemasons were/are Christian) as Wolverine stated: "Freemason isn't a religion"..

You seem to be missing my point: The beliefs that this country has held dear since it's birth have been torn apart by our need to be PC to anyone who comes here no matter what they come here demanding as their "rights." Is it not my right as a natural born citizen of this country to see that my children and theirs grow up in a proud nation of people that stand up right before their creator. The more that God is removed from school and common talk.. the more morally corrupt we have become. If you believe in God or not, does it not stand to reason that some may be helped to stay on the right path believing that their deeds are weighed and measured and that someday they will answer for their actions in the highest court?

Moral fiber and a Christian based belief system works as a conscious of sorts. Not to say folks of other religions have no moral fiber.. it's to say, as my actual point is, that IT WAS WORKING far better than all of this nonsense going on today, so why fix what is NOT broken?

Again, I am aware that some of the founding fathers were also freemasons. These men were also primarily Christians. (I am Not saying all freemasons were/are Christian) as Wolverine stated: "Freemason isn't a religion"..

You seem to be missing my point: The beliefs that this country has held dear since it's birth have been torn apart by our need to be PC to anyone who comes here no matter what they come here demanding as their "rights." Is it not my right as a natural born citizen of this country to see that my children and theirs grow up in a proud nation of people that stand up right before their creator. The more that God is removed from school and common talk.. the more morally corrupt we have become. If you believe in God or not, does it not stand to reason that some may be helped to stay on the right path believing that their deeds are weighed and measured and that someday they will answer for their actions in the highest court?

Moral fiber and a Christian based belief system works as a conscious of sorts. Not to say folks of other religions have no moral fiber.. it's to say, as my actual point is, that IT WAS WORKING far better than all of this nonsense going on today, so why fix what is NOT broken?

let me see if I understand you. You're saying that christian values are what has kept this country running? It has been christian values that has kept this country from sliding into crime and moral inequity?

I would like to point out a few things in america's history that were not only sanctioned, but spearheaded, by christians. Christians who used the bible and christian values to support their points.

slavery , and the argument that it was the right of the white man to own slaves, was a deeply held belief of many christians. They used biblical examples to back up their arguments.

"The Christian church's main justification of the concept of slavery was based on the "curse of Ham" which appears in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) in Genesis 9:25-27.

"Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem.

Christians at the time believed that Canaan had settled in Africa and that his descendents had become black.

Although slavery was widespread in Palestine during Jesus' ministry, the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) does not record his opinion of it. Slavery was casually mentioned without criticism in the various books of the Bible. It was accepted as a natural part of life by almost all Christians until the 19th century CE.

Anabaptists started to criticize slavery in the late 17th century. They were joined by Quakers and Mennonites. It was only when John Wesley (1703-1791), founder of the Methodist movement, became concerned about slavery that the small protest became a mass movement for the abolition of slavery.

Slavery is still advocated in North America by some Reconstructionist Christians and a few racist fringe groups within the Christian Identity movement."
Christianity and slavery (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav.htm)


segregation was also supported and promoted by christians.

"30 Reasons for Segregation of Races

by Finis Dake
Acts 17:26

God wills all races to be as He made them. Any violation of God's original purpose manifests insubordination to Him(Acts 17:26; Romans 9:19-24)
God made everything to reproduce “After his own kind” (Genesis 1:11-12, 21-25; 6:20; 7:14). Kind means type and color or He would have kept them all alike to begin with.
God originally determined the bounds of the habitations of nations(Acts 17:26; Genesis 10:5, 32; 11:8; Deuteronomy 32:8)
Miscegenation means the mixture of races, especially the black and white races, or those of outstanding type or color. The Bible even goes farther than opposing this. It is against different branches of the same stock intermarrying such as Jews marrying other descendants of Abraham(Ezra 9-10; Nehemiah 9-13; Jeremiah 50:37; Ezekiel 30:5).
Abraham forbad Eliezer to take a wife for Isaac of Canaanites (Genesis 24:1-4). God was so pleased with this that He directed whom to get (Genesis 24:7, 12-27).
Isaac forbad Jacob to take a wife of the Canaanites (Genesis 27:46-28:7).
Abraham sent all his sons of the concubines, and even of his second wife, far away from Isaac so their descendants would not mix (Genesis 25:1-6)
Esau disobeying this law brought the final break between him and his father after lifelong companionship with him(Genesis 25:28; 26:34-35, 27:46; 28:8-9).
The two branches of Isaac remained segregated forever (Genesis 30; 46:8-26).
Ishmael and Isaac's descendants remained segregated forever (Genesis 25:12-23; 1 Chronicles 1:29)
Jacob's sons destroyed a whole city to maintain segregation (Genesis 34)
God forbad intermarriage between Israel and all other nations (Exodus 34:12-16; Deuteronomy 7:5-6)
Joshua forbad the same thing on sentence of death (Joshua 22:12-13)
God cursed angels for leaving their own “first estate” and “their own habitation” to marry the daughters of men (Genesis 6:1-4; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6-7)
Miscegenation caused Israel to be cursed (Judges 3:6-7; Numbers 25:1-8)
This was Solomon's sin(I Kings 12)
This was the sin of Jews returning from Babylon (Ezra 9:1-10:2,10-18,44; 13:1-30)
God commanded Israel to be segregated (Leviticus 20:24; Numbers 23:9; 1 Kings 8:53)
Jews recognized as a separate people in all ages because of Gods choice and command (Matthew 10:6; John 1:11). Equal rights in the gospel gives no right to break this eternal law.
Segregation between Jews and all other nations to remain in all eternity (Isaiah 2:2-4; Ezekiel 37; 47:13-48,55; Zechariah 14:16-21; Matthew 19:28; Luke 1:32-33; Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-5)
All nations will remain segregated from one another in their own parts of the earth forever (Acts 17:26; Genesis 10:5,32; 11:8-9; Deuteronomy 32:8; Daniel 7:13-14; Zechariah 14; Revelation 11:15; 21:24)
Certain people in Israel were not even to worship with others (Deuteronomy 23:1-5; Ezra 10:8; Nehemiah 9:2 10:28; 13:3)
Even in heaven certain groups will not be allowed to worship together (Revelation 7:7-17; 14:1-5; 15:2-5)
Segregation was so strong in the O.T. that an ox and an could not work together (Deuteronomy 22:10).
Miscegenation caused disunity among God's people (Numbers 12).
Stock was forbidden to be bred with other kinds (Leviticus 19:19).
Sowing mixed seed in the same field was unlawful (Leviticus 19:19)
Different seeds were forbidden to be planted in vineyards (Deuteronomy 22:9)
Wearing garments of mixed fabrics forbidden (Deuteronomy 22:11; Leviticus 19:19)
Christians and certain other people of a like race are to be segregated (Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Corinthians 5:9-13; 6:15; 2 Corinthians 6:14-15; Ephesians 5:11; 2 Thessalonians 3:6-16; 1 Timothy 6:5; 2 Timothy 3:5)."
30 Reasons for Segregation of Races by Finis Dake Acts 17:26 (http://ccofal.org/ministry/blog/articles/30-reasons-for-segregation-of-races/)
(that site also has biblical references for several other beliefs that are no longer held in popular opinion)


most recently, and prominently, are the biblical arguments against homosexuality and gay marriage.

"Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it."
Homosexuality: The Christian Perspective | Bible.org (http://bible.org/article/homosexuality-christian-perspective)



if you need other examples, or sources, of how christian values have actually increased moral inequity and even caused oppression, I'll be happy to supply them.

please understand, I'm not saying that christianity, as a whole, causes all this nations problems. I'm just saying that many of the things from america's history that are now seen as abominations and black marks against the moral fiber of this country were supported by christians at that time. This country has NOT always run well, with or without christian influence, and there ARE parts that are broken and in need of fixing.

I'm the same as you guys and I believe it's the same in the US as in Canada, you make an oath of affirmation: Oath or affirmation legal definition of Oath or affirmation. Oath or affirmation synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary. (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Oath+or+affirmation)

Not sure if it's true today but it was 14 years ago.

When we went to get our marriage license they asked us to swear on the bible that the info we were giving was true.

I told them that I'm fine with it, but it really didn't matter to me, they could hold up a Mr. Potato head for me to swear on and it would mean the same thing to me.

So thet made us swear an Oath instead.

Too bad, I was hoping for the Mr. Potato head, that would have been a great story to tell my kids. ;)

Wasn't it Marlon Brando who had to testify in court but refused to swear on a bible. He said something like while I do believe in god, I do not believe in the same way as others, so I would prefer not to swear on the bible. I think they had some other thing to swear on I forget.

I remember that!

Not sure if it's true today but it was 14 years ago.

When we went to get our marriage license they asked us to swear on the bible that the info we were giving was true.

I told them that I'm fine with it, but it really didn't matter to me, they could hold up a Mr. Potato head for me to swear on and it would mean the same thing to me.

So thet made us swear an Oath instead.

Too bad, I was hoping for the Mr. Potato head, that would have been a great story to tell my kids. ;)

mr. potatohead would have been so much more fun and interesting ^_^

Again, I am aware that some of the founding fathers were also freemasons. These men were also primarily Christians. (I am Not saying all freemasons were/are Christian) as Wolverine stated: "Freemason isn't a religion"..

Are you forgetting the Deists? Most of the "founding fathers" were Deists, which is very much a religion and has nothing to do with Christianity, but I digress.


The beliefs that this country has held dear since it's birth have been torn apart by our need to be PC to anyone who comes here no matter what they come here demanding as their "rights." Is it not my right as a natural born citizen of this country to see that my children and theirs grow up in a proud nation of people that stand up right before their creator.

We not longer practice the beliefs that "this" country held dear since it's birth, so that point in moot.

As for being PC to everyone, it's called freedom of religion, you might want to look into it.

What does being a "natural" born citizen have to do with it? I live in Canada, but I'm not a Canadian by birth. Are you speaking for all Americans? I have to assume that you aren't because most of my friends on this site are Americans and thankfully none of them feel the way you do.


so why fix what is NOT broken?

It's broken, which is why it needs to be fixed.

By the way, what's with your signature? Love your race? You have a right to your beliefs, but you don't have the right to shove your racist comments in our face.

By the way, what's with your signature? Love your race? You have a right to your beliefs, but you don't have the right to shove your racist comments in our face.

I missed that. Wow, it says a LOT about him. Thanks for pointing that out.

most recently, and prominently, are the biblical arguments against homosexuality and gay marriage.

"Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it."
Homosexuality: The Christian Perspective | Bible.org (http://bible.org/article/homosexuality-christian-perspective)
Yes, I see what you mean, but it is all about interpretation.
:::Warning: Graphical for those of you with an active imagination:::
First off, with a man and a woman, a penis and a vagina, sex is, from a biological sense, natural. You become pregnant through sex, further your race. A man and man, or woman and woman, cannot naturally become pregnant. You cannot insert a penis into a penis, or a vagina into a vagina, as much as you can't plug an AC cord into another AC cord, it needs one "male" and one "female" plug to work.
As for the "blood shall be upon them", remember, this is the old testament, where God encouraged us to "multiply". If you can't have children, and your children are supposed to be the future of the Earth, then it could be essentially be the same as genocide of a race...
I'm not saying it is, but in a scarcely populated Earth, one family spreads far, and looking at the words from a less-literal standpoint, it can seem as less of a condeming standpoint.
It's not like they are actually murdering anyone, but more like preventing someone from existing.


please understand, I'm not saying that christianity, as a whole, causes all this nations problems. I'm just saying that many of the things from america's history that are now seen as abominations and black marks against the moral fiber of this country were supported by christians at that time. This country has NOT always run well, with or without christian influence, and there ARE parts that are broken and in need of fixing.

I know what you are saying.
I'm saying that if Christians are right, and God is an all-power, omnipresent omniscient entity, and they even say "we can't even begin to understand his will" then why do we think what he(she? I don't see why it matters, I'll say "he" for simplicity) 'said' even means what we think it meant?

It's not Christianity that causes any problems, or any religions or religious ideas, it's what the people leading those religions interpret them to be, and people are constantly wrong. Perhaps everything we think he says in the bible, we are wrong. I believe that a true God would want the betterment of all people, no matter what they feel.

If you can't accept that, then I don't think your god is a true God. If your god needs to pick favorites with his creations, then he must not be all powerful, like my God.

Let's take a moment to think of the other wonderful things Christianity has brought us: the term "gooks," the KKK, witch trials, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and, above all, The Dark Ages.

Really wonderful principles, huh.

Let's take a moment to think of the other wonderful things Christianity has brought us: the term "gooks," the KKK, witch trials, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and, above all, The Dark Ages.

Really wonderful principles, huh.

But remember, it's not the religion itself, but it's the people mis-interpreting the religion that bring anything.

Without the people, it's a dusty old book sitting on a shelf. It does nothing. It's the people who read it, see one thing, take it to a total extreme, and end up chastizing [insert whatever is chastized here] that is the problem.

Religion is a lot like dandruff. Most people have some and spend a great deal of time and money fiddling with it. - Robert Heinlein

But remember, it's not the religion itself, but it's the people mis-interpreting the religion that bring anything.

Without the people, it's a dusty old book sitting on a shelf. It does nothing. It's the people who read it, see one thing, take it to a total extreme, and end up chastizing [insert whatever is chastized here] that is the problem.

but lashercelt is arguing that christian values (and values are ONLY determined by people, not gods) have brought nothing but good to this country, and that by trying to make this society more inclusive to other beliefs and cultures we are essentially watering down those same christian values and destroying the country.

but lashercelt is arguing that christian values (and values are ONLY determined by people, not gods) have brought nothing but good to this country, and that by trying to make this society more inclusive to other beliefs and cultures we are essentially watering down those same christian values and destroying the country.

Exactly, you proved my point.

It's not the religion, it's the people. But, yes, many problems can be linked to Christianity, it's not the religion in itself that is the problem, but the people.

*sigh* It's always intolerant people... :rolleyes:


But, then again, "nothing but good" is all a matter of opinion. Maybe that poster thinks all this oppression is good, while we think it is bad.

You know, I like christ, he's a good guy. It's christians who worry me.

Then again, fanatics of ANY variety scare me.

Are you forgetting the Deists? Most of the "founding fathers" were Deists, which is very much a religion and has nothing to do with Christianity, but I digress.



We not longer practice the beliefs that "this" country held dear since it's birth, so that point in moot.

As for being PC to everyone, it's called freedom of religion, you might want to look into it.

What does being a "natural" born citizen have to do with it? I live in Canada, but I'm not a Canadian by birth. Are you speaking for all Americans? I have to assume that you aren't because most of my friends on this site are Americans and thankfully none of them feel the way you do.



It's broken, which is why it needs to be fixed.

By the way, what's with your signature? Love your race? You have a right to your beliefs, but you don't have the right to shove your racist comments in our face.


I don't need yours or anyone's permission to express myself as you do not.Nor do I care to have your approval.
As you stated.. I have a right to my beliefs.. which is exactly what I am expressing here. To be clear I am NOT a he.. I am a SHE and because I love my race does not make me racist.. I am talking about love-NOT hate.. that's where you liberals always get it wrong.. when you spout about being PC to everyone.. maybe you need to actually include EVERYONE! Just because I think things were better years ago than they are now and that a Christian based belief system is partially the reason AND because I happen to think ALL people should love their race you assume I am a WHITE CHRISTIAN MALE which of course to your way of thinking means a racist.. well here's a big surprise, I AM NOT!. If for instance I was a black, Muslim female that was waving a banner saying to, "love your race." You'd be all fine and cosy with that wouldn't you? Because THAT would be being PC to everyone. *spit* ridiculous! Everyone should love themselves, friends, family and race.. Thought I made that clear.. There was no small print that said "if you're white"..

Is it not my right as a natural born citizen of this country to see that my children and theirs grow up in a proud nation of people that stand up right before their creator.

No, it is not. The very first of the Amendments says that to legislate such a concept is ILLEGAL.

you assume I am a WHITE CHRISTIAN MALE which of course to your way of thinking means a racist.. well here's a big surprise, I AM NOT!.. If for instance I was a black, Muslim female that was waving a banner saying to, "love your race." You'd be all fine and cosy with that wouldn't you? Because THAT would be being PC to everyone. *spit* ridiculous! Everyone should love themselves, friends, family and race.. Thought I made that clear.. There was no small print that said "if you're white"..

Actually, I thought you were a female. A Christian female, based on what you were saying, but a female nonetheless.
As for the "Love your race" thing, no, no matter who you are it wouldn't be acceptable. It's basically saying "I think my race is better than yours." Because, from an objective standpoint, we see you saying it. We don't see any person of any race saying it, because we don't know your race. You don't see anyone saying "you white supremesist" or "you KKK member!" we say "you racist".
If there was a black Muslim holding a sign, I would assume that she was racist for blacks. Racism exists in all races, not just white people. But, if I saw a line of people from all racists all holding the same sign, then it would be a different thing.

As it stands now, your signiture points to racism, and is offending to people.
If it was just there, it would be one thing. However you have "Love your race!" underlined and with an exclaimation point, meaning you think it's the most important thing of that statement, and you should pay attention to it. Again, pointing to racism.

Let's take a moment to think of the other wonderful things Christianity has brought us: the term "gooks," the KKK, witch trials, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and, above all, The Dark Ages.

Really wonderful principles, huh.

Please elaborate and provide links.

Certainly, a sinful humanity, including the church, have committed atrocities, but it is biased to only see one side.

In the name of Christianity:

First and foremost - the way to eternal salvation via Jesus Christ and God's grace, mercy and forgiveness. - salvation army - god's pantry - ymca - mother theresa - countless church missions to countries throughout the world and to provide for the local community, MLK etc...

Read the preamble ot the Declaration of Independence and you will see that the founding father's DO acknowledge a creator that gives rights.

In the name of separating or eliminating the church from the state:

Russsian communism
Mao's communism
Pol Pot
Hitler, yes born Catholic but his "master race" belief is Darwinian, and not born of true Christianity.



Unlike atheists or those who do not put their trust in God, Christians acknowledge that humanity is imperfect, and that anything based on the humanity is going to have its faults.
I know I am seriously flawed as well as gifted in many ways. That is the way God made me. I dare not think that I nor any other human being can get the it right all the time.






G&P

Certainly, a sinful humanity, including the church, have committed atrocities, but it is biased to only see one side.

In the name of Christianity:
Who are you to speak "In the name of Christianity"?


First and foremost - the way to eternal salvation via Jesus Christ and God's grace, mercy and forgiveness. - salvation army - god's pantry - ymca - mother theresa - countless church missions to countries throughout the world and to provide for the local community, MLK etc...
Please elaborate and provide links.


Read the preamble ot the Declaration of Independence and you will see that the founding father's DO acknowledge a creator that gives rights.
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among them...." (from memory :D)
I see the words "created" and "their creator" it sounds to me like it is saying "Everyone has a right to believe what they want, because everyone is equal, and you can believe in your creator, no matter what that is.
NOT "Unless you are Christian get out of my country."


Unlike atheists or those who do not put their trust in God, Christians acknowledge that humanity is imperfect, and that anything based on the humanity is going to have its faults.
I know I am seriously flawed as well as gifted in many ways. That is the way God made me. I dare not think that I nor any other human being can get the it right all the time.

Where do atheists, or "those who do not put their trust in God" as a whole think humanity is perfect? You talk to any educated person, of any religion(or lack thereof) and you will find that everyone knows that humanity is imperfect.
Just like there were stray "Christians" who did inhumane things, and they don't speak for all of Christianity, there are stray "[insert any religion here]" who did inhumane things, but don't speak for the whole of their religion.

Certainly, a sinful humanity, including those not of the church, have committed atrocities, but it is biased to only see one side.


See what I did there? You need to look at it from another standpoint also. Used your own logic against you, because you are refusing to see anything else.

I don't know any court that any longer swears on the Bible. You simply put your hand up and say you are stating the truth to the best of your knowledge.

The separation of church and state as it is now defined is messed up. They claim to separate yet they have their hand in everything they do not approve of dictating a lot of what is appropriate or not by their standards. Therefore some things slip by while others are made a big deal of.
People think they do not have a right to pray in public and other things but it is what the media has people believing.
I do not believe that separatiion of church and state is what the founding fathers had in mind because otherwise the government buildings would not have many of the Biblical carvings and statues they have.

This is a good site to keep informed

http://www.aclj.org/

I don't need yours or anyone's permission to express myself as you do not.Nor do I care to have your approval.

You don't need my permission to express yourself, but be prepared for backlash if you continue to express yourself the way you have so far. I too have a right to express myself.


As you stated.. I have a right to my beliefs.. which is exactly what I am expressing here. To be clear I am NOT a he.. I am a SHE and because I love my race does not make me racist.. I am talking about love-NOT hate.. that's where you liberals always get it wrong..

And I was expressing my beliefs. You can dish it but you can't take it. Is that the case? Thanks for clarifying that you're a woman. That doesn't change my opinion on anything, but thanks for the info. I do have to laugh that you called me a liberal. Now you're assuming.


when you spout about being PC to everyone.. maybe you need to actually include EVERYONE!] Just because I think things were better years ago than they are now and that a Christian based belief system is partially the reason AND because I happen to think ALL people should love their race you assume I am a WHITE CHRISTIAN MALE which of course to your way of thinking means a racist.. well here's a big surprise, I AM NOT!. If for instance I was a black, Muslim female that was waving a banner saying to, "love your race." You'd be all fine and cosy with that wouldn't you? Because THAT would be being PC to everyone. *spit* ridiculous!

For someone that hates assumptions you sure are assuming a lot. It's hard to know who's behind the computer monitor, especially if their username and avatar don't give a clue. I said male because I didn't want to put "it" or "he/she". I don't care if you're black, white, purple, male, female, transvestite, if you're holding up a sign saying "love your race" I won't be okay with it, because it's a racist comment. So no, I wouldn't be all "fine and cosy" with it.


Everyone should love themselves, friends, family and race.. Thought I made that clear.. There was no small print that said "if you're white"..

I do love myself, my friends, my family and every "race". I really hate the word race. We're all part of the same race, it's called human, look it up. I thought you were Christian, aren't you supposed to love everyone?

Virtual grennie for that Alt!

But, come on! She said we are ALL liberals who would be fine and cosy, not just you! :rolleyes:

Looks like a white supremacist has escaped from Stormfront.

It is a lie that has been repeated so often that people accept it as being true.

The Founding Fathers of the USA were mostly Deists, not Christians.

The following is lifted from Wikipedia. See if you can find the Deists.
Religious Affiliation
Of U.S. Founding Fathers # of
Founding
Fathers % of
Founding
Fathers
Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
TOTAL 204


NOTES: The table above counts people and not "roles," meaning that individuals have not been

Google Religious affiliations of the Founding Fatherss for the complete article.

Pleae stop perpetuating a lie.

above all, The Dark Ages.

Really wonderful principles, huh.

Really?

In the dark ages, the Church was in eclipse, and what was the name of those people running Europe, you know, the ones doing human sacrifice and various tortures at halloween? Druids, weren't they?

Are you a woman?

Women in countries with a strong Christian influence fare far better than anyplace else on Earth.

Christian influence has given us schools, hospitals, great art, music and liberty (in this country) unequalled in history.

The Bible also encourages private ownership of land and the work ethic, two concepts responsible for the creation of the great economic power that the USA has been.

It is departure from these basic concepts that is causing the downfall of our economy at the present time. The rush toward socialism is NOT Bible based, and has been proven to be a failure many times already.

So don't knock the Bible. It is an important part of our national foundation.

The rush toward socialism is NOT Bible based, and has been proven to be a failure many times already.Really? What method of political power does the bible advocate?

Also there is no "rush to socialism" and socialism is not a failure. There are more "wealthy" countries with socialized programs than those without.

Lots of art, music, medical developments have been done with complete ignorance of the bible. Private ownership of land is not a concept that began in the bible of course and a good work ethic has absolutely nothing to do with one's religion.

Women in countries with a strong Christian influence fare far better than anyplace else on Earth.

Christian influence has given us schools, hospitals, great art, music and liberty (in this country) unequalled in history.

The Bible also encourages private ownership of land and the work ethic, two concepts responsible for the creation of the great economic power that the USA has been.

It is departure from these basic concepts that is causing the downfall of our economy at the present time. The rush toward socialism is NOT Bible based, and has been proven to be a failure many times already.

So don't knock the Bible. It is an important part of our national foundation.

Where is your proof that any of this is true?

You claim it was "proven" yet you have no "proof". Sounds to me like you are full of hot air.

The dark ages, approximately 400 -1200 A.D. The Church was the dominant power of Europe. Forted up in their abbeys and monasteries, the people running Europe were the Barons and Kings supported by the Church.

Altenweg.. tisk tisk.. getting your panties a little bunched up, aren't we? You are obviously a racist. Don't you get that by calling me one for me stating that we should all love our race is, in fact, YOU being a racist?

The fact that I say, "love your race" only means that I think we should love and take pride in who we are.. that means EVERYONE.. it is you that is deciding I mean just a group of people.

Get a grip.. go hug a tree or something.

NeedKarma? I don't know where stormfront is, I'll assume from the context that it's a hospital? Anyway, you labeled me a few pages ago and were wrong then as you are now.

I love my race, at least the ones who deserve to be included in it. I am not ashamed of my beliefs and will never apologize for them to anyone.

And I never said I was a Christian, I believe things ran better when decisions were made from a moral stand point to some degree and that was based on Christian beliefs. Labels.. Labels people.

Yes, I called one person here a liberal.. just as you think you know me by something I said, I too made a judgement call as I have seen that closed minded attitude of the liberal far too often. So, I'll take mine and say I am also guilty of the labeling but maybe it is YOU that wants to dish it out and not take it?

I am proud of who I am and nothing you say or do or any of your double speak is going to change it.. so keep flapping your lips, it's only entertainment.

Have a great day!

The rush toward socialism is NOT Bible based, and has been proven to be a failure many times already.

Really? What method of political power does the bible advocate?
Gal, read the OT brook of Amos. Read the NT Sermon on the Mount. Read the teachings of Jesus. Do you know the Golden Rule?

Altenweg.. tisk tisk.. getting your panties a little bunched up, aren't we? You are obviously a racist.:eek: Wow, you obviously have no idea what it is you are talking about.

Don't you get that by calling me one for me stating that we should all love our race is, in fact, YOU being a racist?What part of you is a race? I see no racism here, just a judgement call by Alt, and the need of a dictionary for the term "racist" for you.
The fact that I say, "love your race" only means that I think we should love and take pride in who we are.. that means EVERYONE.. it is you that is deciding I mean just a group of people. No, if you meant "take pride in who you are" your signiture would say that. There is a reason you used the word "race" and underlined it.
I love my race, at least the ones who deserve to be included in it. I am not ashamed of my beliefs and will never apologize for them to anyone.The fact that you could even think that some people don't deserve to be a race is racism in itself. You are completely close minded and wrong until you realize and accept that.
And I never said I was a Christian, I believe things ran better when decisions were made from a moral stand point to some degree and that was based on Christian beliefs. Labels.. Labels people.Except, I believe that everyone has proved that the United States wasn't ran by Christians, so you are just talking in circles that have already been shot down.
Yes, I called one person here a liberal.. just as you think you know me by something I said, I too made a judgement call as I have seen that closed minded attitude of the liberal far too often. So, I'll take mine and say I am also guilty of the labeling but maybe it is YOU that wants to dish it out and not take it?Actually, you said "you liberals". Since Altenweg is only one person, that means that you lied. Either now, or when you said it originally.
I am proud of who I am and nothing you say or do or any of your double speak is going to change it.. so keep flapping your lips, it's only entertainment.Double speak... really? You're the one bringing about issues already shot down (such as the country was founded by Christians). You saying something already proven wrong is you double speaking, not anyone else.
Have a great day!
I will, thank you! :)

Altenweg.. tisk tisk.. getting your panties a little bunched up, aren't we? You are obviously a racist. Don't you get that by calling me one for me stating that we should all love our race is, in fact, YOU being a racist?

The fact that I say, "love your race" only means that I think we should love and take pride in who we are.. that means EVERYONE.. it is you that is deciding I mean just a group of people.

Get a grip.. go hug a tree or something.


Do you honestly think that talking down to people proves your position? You're showing your maturity and intelligence, or lack thereof.

If you want to have a discussion then discuss like a grown up.

Hugging trees can be fun, but I think I'll stick around here for a while.


I love my race, at least the ones who deserve to be included in it. I am not ashamed of my beliefs and will never apologize for them to anyone.

Those that deserve to be included? What does one have to do to be worthy of being in your presence?


I am proud of who I am and nothing you say or do or any of your double speak is going to change it.. so keep flapping your lips, it's only entertainment.

Ditto, I'm finding this entertaining as well, it's like arguing with my 10 year old.

Bye now. :)

Ditto, I'm finding this entertaining as well, it's like arguing with my 10 year old.

How do you know she isn't a 10 year old? :eek:

How do you know she isn't a 10 year old? :eek:
Ask Me Help Desk - Search Results (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/search.php?do=finduser&u=615415&starteronly=1)

Well, I wasn't being serious, but thanks for the interest NK! :p

I hope her pure aryan genital warts heal.

I hope her pure aryan genital warts heal.

Doubtful. In order to heal those you have to go to a priestess and that's strictly verboten for people of her "race" and culture.

Doubtful. In order to heal those you have to go to a priestess and that's strictly verboten for people of her "race" and culture.
I've heard that pressing a cut, raw potato on them works.

I've heard that pressing a cut, raw potato on them works.

Only if warlock spits on the potato and you turn around 5 times while chanting "Wart, heal thyself".

Really?

In the dark ages, the Church was in eclipse, and what was the name of those people running Europe, you know, the ones doing human sacrifice and various tortures at halloween? Druids, weren't they?

actually druids NEVER performed human sacrifices. There were a group of people who believed in the value of all life and that all of creation was sacred, much like the buddhists.

i would like you to cite some reliable sources that can prove that druids made human sacrifices. Heck, there aren't any first-hand records that druids even ever EXISTED, because they didn't believe in writing anything about their religion down. Most of the resources in existence are from people, mostly the early missionaries, relating stories they heard from other people. There are very few accounts from the time the druids are said to have lived that mentions them, and most are merely in passing.


Christian influence has given us schools, hospitals, great art, music and liberty (in this country) unequalled in history.

this, too, is false. All those things were present in ancient greece, just to name one example, long before christianity was around.

there is more art that has absolutely nothing to do with christianity than that which does. There has also been more art throughout history that had nothing to do with christianity than that which did. The same goes for music.

many asian cultures actually have better hospitals and school systems then anything present in america. Those cultures do NOT have a value or belief system based on christianity, in fact a christians are a minority in those countries.

many of the american indian tribes had more freedom and equality than early america, and some even more than is present today. The cherokee, for instance, had equal rights for all and a governing system much like democracy. Women were allowed to fight and serve as leaders and had full ownership of their lives and property. Unlike modern america, if an individual, man or woman, felt that they were being mistreated or that a marriage had simply run it's course, they were able to end it on good terms with the other person without having to jump through all the legal and hoops that exist today.


The Bible also encourages private ownership of land and the work ethic, two concepts responsible for the creation of the great economic power that the USA has been.

so did many ancient religions. Ancient greece, rome, and egypt were all built, and flourished, under that belief.


It is departure from these basic concepts that is causing the downfall of our economy at the present time. The rush toward socialism is NOT Bible based, and has been proven to be a failure many times already.

actually, it is the belief that someone else will fix your problems that has caused all the problems. Big businesses have run themselves into the ground, all the while thinking that the government will come along and bail them out of trouble. Then, guess what, the government comes along and gives them money to pay off debts they shouldn't have in the first place.

i find that a very christian belief. Correct me if I'm wrong, but christianity teaches that if you make a mistake it's OK, because all you have to do is pray to god asking for help/forgiveness and he'll come along and make it all OK, if you deserve it.

Unlike atheists or those who do not put their trust in God, Christians acknowledge that humanity is imperfect, and that anything based on the humanity is going to have its faults.

I know MANY atheists and non-christians and NONE of them believe that humans are perfect. In fact, they are more ready, willing and able to admit that they ARE flawed and work to change it than the CHRISTIANS I know. Christians seem all to willing to just sit back and wait for god to come along and fix things, all the while complaining that things never change or get better.

To be clear I am NOT a he.. I am a SHE and because I love my race does not make me racist.. I am talking about love-NOT hate.. that's where you liberals always get it wrong..

I think most of the people here simply use 'he' when there is no definitive way of knowing the correct gender. I have been referred to as he AND she, and neither bother me. Now, if you were posting in the pregnancy forum asking if we thought you were pregnant and someone called you 'he' you would have an actual reason to be upset.

It's not just liberals who take offense to a statement like, 'love your race.' telling someone to love their race strongly implies that they should not love or respect other races. If you mean something different then you need to use more inclusive language. If you don't know what that means, you need to go look it up.


Just because I think things were better years ago than they are now and that a Christian based belief system is partially the reason AND because I happen to think ALL people should love their race you assume I am a WHITE CHRISTIAN MALE

Actually, I thought you were christian. I made no real assumptions on your race OR gender. A racist from one gender is just the same as a racist from any other gender, in my book. And I have never known racism to be exclusively male.


If for instance I was a black, Muslim female that was waving a banner saying to, "love your race." You'd be all fine and cosy with that wouldn't you? Because THAT would be being PC to everyone. *spit* ridiculous! Everyone should love themselves, friends, family and race.. Thought I made that clear.. There was no small print that said "if you're white"..

Actually, I would find that just as offensive as a white, christian male or an asian, taoist male or female. Racism comes in all shapes, sizes, colors, religions, and genders.

Since you seem a bit shaky on the actual definition of racism, let me help you out.

Rac⋅ism [rey-siz-uhm] –noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc. based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
Racism Definition | Definition of Racism at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism)

By my count you seem to be racist.

Who are you to speak "In the name of Christianity"?


Self explanatory:

About the YMCA (http://www.ymca.net/about_the_ymca/)

Young Mens CHRISTAIAN Asociation. Of course it is now co-ed and has developed since its foundation.

God's Pantry Food Bank - Home (http://www.godspantry.org/aboutus/pages/historymission)


The Salvation Army: What We Believe (http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/www_usn_2.nsf/vw-dynamic-arrays/CE33D354A0544F368025732500314AF5?openDocument&charset=utf-8)


Catholic Health Initiatives (http://www.catholichealthinit.org/)


William Wilberforce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wilberforce)

"In 1785, he underwent a conversion experience and became an evangelical Christian, resulting in major changes to his lifestyle and a lifelong concern for reform. In 1787, he came into contact with Thomas Clarkson and a group of anti-slave-trade activists, including Granville Sharp, Hannah More and Charles Middleton. They persuaded Wilberforce to take on the cause of abolition, and he soon became one of the leading English abolitionists. He headed the parliamentary campaign against the British slave trade for twenty-six years until the passage of the Slave Trade Act 1807."

Martin Luther King, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr). was a BAPTIST minister







Please elaborate and provide links.




Search engine's are amazing, you can provide links to base your opinion in FACTS, not just general statements





"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among them...." (from memory :D)

I see the words "created" and "their creator" it sounds to me like it is saying "Everyone has a right to believe what they want, because everyone is equal, and you can believe in your creator, no matter what that is.
NOT "Unless you are Christian get out of my country."



Read those, bold faced, words literally. How you can interpret them to mean what you just wrote is ?????






Where do atheists, or "those who do not put their trust in God" as a whole think humanity is perfect? You talk to any educated person, of any religion(or lack thereof) and you will find that everyone knows that humanity is imperfect.
Just like there were stray "Christians" who did inhumane things, and they don't speak for all of Christianity, there are stray "[insert any religion here]" who did inhumane things, but don't speak for the whole of their religion.


Exactly, your whole statement that Christianity is bad does not hold water then.





Certainly, a sinful humanity, including those not of the church, have comitted atrocities, but it is biased to only see one side.

See what I did there? You need to look at it from another standpoint also. Used your own logic against you, because you are refusing to see anything else.


I do , that is why I stated that. I can tell you that priest molestation of children is bad, that burning heretics, or the inquisition is bad.

My response was to catsmine



G&P

Gal, read the OT brook of Amos. Read the NT Sermon on the Mount. Read the teachings of Jesus. Do you know the Golden Rule?


Does the bible advocate any particular form of government? Or is it primarily about GOd and our relationship to God?





G&P

many asian cultures actually have better hospitals and school systems then anything present in america. Those cultures do NOT have a value or belief system based on christianity, in fact a christians are a minority in those countries.





This is based on what?



SAT Scores Fall as Gap Widens; Asians Gain - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125121641858657345.html)





College Board officials said that Asian-American students appeared to do better at all income levels. Officials said that was because they tend to take more Advanced Placement and other rigorous courses, and their families place a strong value on success in education.




Religion is a direct non-factor. Parental influence is the most important factors.


Children in single-parent families by race - Data Across States - KIDS COUNT Data Center (http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/acrossstates/Rankings.aspx?ind=107)

BLacks have the highest rate of single parenthood - lowest scores
Asians have the lowest rates of single parenthood - highest scores


However, the Christian value is for marriage, even despite similar divorce rates between christians and Non- Christians.






G&P

Self explanatory:

About the YMCA

Young Mens CHRISTAIAN Asociation. Of course it is now co-ed and has developed since its foundation.

God's Pantry Food Bank - Home


The Salvation Army: What We Believe


Catholic Health Initiatives


William Wilberforce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In 1785, he underwent a conversion experience and became an evangelical Christian, resulting in major changes to his lifestyle and a lifelong concern for reform. In 1787, he came into contact with Thomas Clarkson and a group of anti-slave-trade activists, including Granville Sharp, Hannah More and Charles Middleton. They persuaded Wilberforce to take on the cause of abolition, and he soon became one of the leading English abolitionists. He headed the parliamentary campaign against the British slave trade for twenty-six years until the passage of the Slave Trade Act 1807."

Martin Luther King, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Was a BAPTIST minister

Search engine's are amazing, you can provide links to base your opinion in FACTS, not just general statements

Yes, they are. Now, go use one of those "amazing" search engines to see how all of those things Cats listed are all related to religion. If you can find yourself information (no, I am not going to read it because I know it's all religion-related) then you can find information for Cats' examples (and I know those are religion-related also).

Read those, bold faced, words literally. How you can interpret them to mean what you just wrote is??
Okay, it literally says nothing about Christian values or beliefs. In fact, it doesn't even use the word "God". Because it says "creator" I could see aethists seeing their parents as their "creator(s)", so I still have to ask how that says anything about a Christian God?

Exactly, your whole statement that Christianity is bad does not hold water then.
My statement was not that Christianity is "bad", but rather that your statement that a Christian background for this country is not only unmerited, but not inherently "good" as there are "bad" things that have come of it.

I do , that is why I stated that. I can tell you that priest molestation of children is bad, that burning heretics, or the inquisition is bad.
Good. Besides the molestation (which is more about the individuals than the religion) you only listed two events that happened outside of the jurisdiction of this country.
Now, go look up all of that stuff that Cats listed, and see how religious influence in this country is not always a good thing. Until you do that, since you've been defending religious influence in this country, don't claim that you're looking at the other side of things.

My response was to catsmine
It's a public forum, get over it.
If you wanted to talk to Cats personally, send him a PM. Otherwise, it's a free country, and a free board, don't complain if someone else replies to your message.


I'll respond to the rest of what you said in a minute, it's horribly hard to quote it like you posted it.

Does the bible advocate any particular form of government? Or is it primarily about GOd and our relationship to God?
No form except to render to Caesar... That relationship to God first, and then our relationship TO EACH OTHER. Thus, the Golden Rule, Jesus' Second Greatest Commandment, the OT book of Amos.

This is based on what?



SAT Scores Fall as Gap Widens; Asians Gain - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125121641858657345.html)





Religion is a direct non-factor. Parental influence is the most important factors.


Children in single-parent families by race - Data Across States - KIDS COUNT Data Center (http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/acrossstates/Rankings.aspx?ind=107)

BLacks have the highest rate of single parenthood - lowest scores
Asians have the lowest rates of single parenthood - highest scores


However, the Christian value is for marriage, even despite similar divorce rates between christians and Non- Christians.






G&P

You are only looking at test scores of different ethnic backgrounds WITHIN america. I was talking about the school systems in different COUNTRIES. They are not the same thing and you cannot use america standardized testing to judge the knowledge base and curriculum in other countries. You not only didn't prove your point, you failed to even make a dent in mine.

Now, go look up all of that stuff that Cats listed, and see how religious influence in this country is not always a good thing. Until you do that, since you've been defending religious influence in this country, don't claim that you're looking at the other side of things.

I like how my points are being ignored by those trying to claim the christianity has done nothing but good for this country. Probably because they can't find a way to dispute them.

I was even kind enough to provide links to my sources, and everything.

Sorry heath (not health :D). I know you're there.

I was just responding to that guy's responding to me responding to him responding to Cats' post... :confused:
I think that makes sense... lol :rolleyes:

Sorry heath (not health :D). I know you're there.

I was just responding to that guy's responding to me responding to him responding to Cats' post... :confused:
I think that makes sense... lol :rolleyes:

it made perfect sense ^_^

it just amuses me that they're ignoring my post. My only guess is because they can't find any way to disprove me.

Yep, it's a better reason than most to do so! :D

I think we frightened them off.

Here you go. With link at bottom

Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
William Floyd New York Presbyterian
Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian

www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

Well that answers everything!

LOL!

Well that answers everything!

LOL!

It's a pretty good answer to those who loudly claim that this country was founded by Deists.

Don't you agree?

this country was founded by people who wrote the separation of church and state INTO THE CONSTITUTION! If they intended the government to be run on the values and teachings of ANY religion, they wouldn't have done that.

It's a pretty good answer to those who loudly claim that this country was founded by Deists.

Don't you agree?
Well no. There were a lot of replies to your statements starting on page 5 but you blew right through those.

The Christian Nation Myth (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html)

That's all I have to say. :)

Well no. There were a lot of replies to your statements starting on page 5 but you blew right through those.

Don't you agree that this country was founded by Christians? Did you even read the list?

Yes, they founded a SECULAR government, for excellent reasons.

No, they did not found an anti-God or anti-Christ government, as seems to be the opinion of some people.

You are not one of these people are you?

Don't you agree that this country was founded by Christians? Did you even read the list?

Yes, they founded a SECULAR government, for excellent reasons.

No, they did not found an anti-God or anti-Christ government, as seems to be the opinion of some people.

You are not one of these people are you?

Did you read my link?

Also, Deists aren't "anti-God". Do you even know the definition of Deism?

Did you read my link?

Also, Deists aren't "anti-God". Do you even know the definition of Deism?

That is not even close to what I said.

That is not even close to what I said.

Then I apologize.

I ask again, did you read the link I provided?

Don't you agree that this country was founded by Christians? Did you even read the list?

Yes, they founded a SECULAR government, for excellent reasons.

No, they did not found an anti-God or anti-Christ government, as seems to be the opinion of some people.

You are not one of these people are you?

No, they founded a government they wanted to accepting of ALL gods and religions. It got messed up after that, mostly by the people who think that the government was formed as some sort of legal extension of the christian church.

Did you read my link?

Also, Deists aren't "anti-God". Do you even know the definition of Deism?

QUOTE=Altenweg;1955413]Did you read my link?

Also, Deists aren't "anti-God". Do you even know the definition of Deism?[/QUOTE]

That is not even close to what I said.

Of course, I expect that ALL the signers did not want a government sponsored religion. They had recently had a really good look at that and rejected it.

That does not mean that they were anti-religion. They in fact considered themselves to be Christians.

You like to cite Jefferson for your support, but he said on more than one occasion thet he greatly admired Jesus.

You point to Franklin as being Deist, but in spite of that, it was Franklin that urged the convention to have a special time of prayer for the establishment of a government. He believed in prayer, and he was right!

You can't seem to understand the difference between honoring Christian principles and calling for the establishment of a theocracy.

Many of our past presidents have called for times of prayer, and have honored God by their proclamations.

Where does your opposition to all things religious in our national life spring from?

Where does your opposition to all things religious in our national life spring from?

This has nothing to do with opposition to religion. Deism is a religious belief, I should know, I am a Deist.


That does not mean that they were anti-religion. They in fact considered themselves to be Christians.

Maybe this link will help you understand.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffreethought.mbdojo.com%2Ffounding fathers.html&ei=vEecSo2nFKPmnQeu6syjBQ&usg=AFQjCNF3Z47XTTXau4KKAQxc0amutAeYOQ

Yes, they are. Now, go use one of those "amazing" search engines to see how all of those things Cats listed are all related to religion. If you can find yourself information (no, I am not going to read it because I know it's all religion-related) then you can find information for Cats' examples (and I know those are religion-related also).





Cat's is a statement - no links supplied. I supplied links backing up what I say. Cat's has not.


Okay, it literally says nothing about Christian values or beliefs. In fact, it doesn't even use the word "God". Because it says "creator" I could see aethists seeing their parents as their "creator(s)", so I still have to ask how that says anything about a Christian God?



See prior posts by Gal showing that the majority of the founding fathers were Christian. so who do you think a Christian would refer to as their creator?



My statement was not that Christianity is "bad", but rather that your statement that a Christian background for this country is not only unmerited, but not inherently "good" as there are "bad" things that have come of it.




Good. Besides the molestation (which is more about the individuals than the religion) you only listed two events that happened outside of the jurisdiction of this country.
Now, go look up all of that stuff that Cats listed, and see how religious influence in this country is not always a good thing. Until you do that, since you've been defending religious influence in this country, don't claim that you're looking at the other side of things.



At least I have the integrity to acknowledge where the other side's argument may be coming from, and then counter with facts.



It's a public forum, get over it.
If you wanted to talk to Cats personally, send him a PM. Otherwise, it's a free country, and a free board, don't complain if someone else replies to your message.



Exactly, I want what I state to be public, just like every post here is public. I never complained, just debating.




I'll respond to the rest of what you said in a minute, it's horribly hard to quote it like you posted it.


Hey, it is easier to counter statement for statement like this, otherwise you can copy and paste.



;)


G&P

you are only looking at test scores of different ethnic backgrounds WITHIN america. i was talking about the school systems in different COUNTRIES. they are not the same thing and you cannot use america standardized testing to judge the knowledge base and curriculum in other countries. you not only didn't prove your point, you failed to even make a dent in mine.

The point being, religion or no religion is a non-factor. I'll state it again: parental factors, or the lack of parental factors, are the biggest influence on academic achievement, not religious affiliation or lack of one.

To associate the US's reportedly poor academic achievement to Christianity or the Christian culture is false. There are too many other factors that influence academic achievement. I point to one of them.



G&P

The point being, religion or no religion is a non-factor. I'll state it again: parental factors, or the lack of parental factors, are the biggest influence on academic achievement, not religious affiliation or lack of one.

To associate the US's reportedly poor academic achievement to Christianity or the Christian culture is false. There are too many other factors that influence academic achievement. I point to one of them.



G&P

Exactly, and if you read over all my other posts you will realize that I have never blamed christianity, merely pointed out that saying it is the sole reason for this country's 'success' is false.

The point being, religion or no religion is a non-factor. I'll state it again: parental factors, or the lack of parental factors, are the biggest influence on academic achievement, not religious affiliation or lack of one.

To associate the US's reportedly poor academic achievement to Christianity or the Christian culture is false. There are too many other factors that influence academic achievement. I point to one of them.

I totally agree with you! Is this one of the signs of the end times? :)

Nah, I agree with your emphasis on family too ;)


G&P