While I'm not about to say my faith has been restored, at least the church I once attended has taken a positive step toward embracing basic human rights:

Lutherans Vote to Approve Gay Clergy

By Julie Bolcer
Lutherans Vote to Approve Gay Clergy

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the nation’s largest Lutheran denomination, voted on Friday to allow gays and lesbians in committed relationships to serve as clergy, lifting a restriction that had required gay and lesbian ministers to remain celibate, reports the Minneapolis Star Tribune .

Church delegates voted 559-451 to remove the ban during their biennial conference in Minneapolis. The vote makes the ELCA, which claims nearly 5 million members, the largest denomination in the country to allow non-celibate gay and lesbian ministers.

Last month, the leaders of the U.S. Episcopal Church voted to lift a similar restriction on non-celibate gay and lesbian bishops. The votes are considered likely to influence the debate over gay clergy in other large Protestant denominations, such as the Presbyterian and Methodist churches.

The resolution approved by the ELCA does not force individual congregations to select gay and lesbian ministers, but allows them to pick the candidates if they wish to do so.

On Friday, delegates also voted 619 to 402 to approve a resolution allowing individual congregations to recognize same-sex unions in the way they see fit.

The vote to approve gay and lesbian ministers occurred after a Baptist minister on Wednesday blamed a tornado that damaged a Lutheran church in Minneapolis on the impending policy change.


We can only hope other churches will follow this example.

YouTube - Lutherans Endorse Homosexuality God Sends Tornado! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALk1z5euBxI)
No comment!

YouTube - Lutherans Endorse Homosexuality God Sends Tornado! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALk1z5euBxI)
No comment!
Holy crap! The text description beside that video is as creepy as the assertion that a natural event was caused by a god. So all those people killed in tornado alley every year in the mid-west deserved it?

Holy crap! The text description beside that video is as creepy as the assertion that a natural event was caused by a god. So all those people killed in tornado alley every year in the mid-west deserved it?

No one was killed here my friend!

I know. Are all the tornadoes caused by God wrath?

I know. Are all the tornadoes caused by God wrath?

No, tornadoes and things like that are the result of man's sin.
When God created earth the climate was absolutely perfect.When man sinned everything changed!
Do not blame God for what we have done.He gave us the perfect conditions to walk with Him, He even protected us from death, but we did not listen to Him and our betrayal caused every bad thing that exists on earth!

So we've come around to my initial point: all those people killed in tornado alley every year in the mid-west deserved it?

So we've come around to my initial point: all those people killed in tornado alley every year in the mid-west deserved it?

Death is the result of sin.We all sin, we all die one way or another.
By the way... I very much like your avatar!

So we've come around to my initial point: all those people killed in tornado alley every year in the mid-west deserved it?

What you are comparing is life as you know it here on earth. What you are not accepting is that life is in heaven, because we are told in HIS WORD, Christ did raise from death which was permtted as our redeeming grace. He became our weakness, so we could be strong in HIS strength and hands. The same that raised Christ will raise our souls.

What should be recognized is that the weakness of man did cause the death. If we attempt and think we can stand allow, we will not survive against death. Death could become the result of what someone deserves, but we do not judge souls.

God's power and wrath in conquering death is not compared in likeness of living on earth in flesh bodies. But is known in life eternal, and how all we can live to be raised to life in heaven by the force that did overcome and conquered death.

So if you want to ask what those who were taken by the force of the tornado deserved, you must feel they were being punished, and I strongly disagree. Whether taken or not, they raise to life in heaven.

We rest in knowing whenever death does occur, we will be raised. And you know yourself life on earth does not continue forever, so why think it was punishment, when they went to return home with GOD.

Rest in assurance of HIS WORD, HIS PROMISE = FAITH

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The birth of new life is with God

Death is the result of sin.We all sin, we all die one way or another.


Faith in Christ gives us forgiveness from sin, and liberty to chose.

So if you want to ask what those who were taken by the force of the tornado deserved, you must feel they were being punished, and I strongly disagree. I disagree with that notion as well, I was just commenting on the video that adam posted that basically says God was mad and sent a tornado.

I know. Are all the tornadoes caused by God wrath?

Is the world under the power of God? YES

Do the winds blows and the rain fall because of God? YES

Did we effect the results of what happen on earth? YES

Because all reap from what we sow, and we should follow the will of God to reap goodness

Well there are never tornadoes where I live.. ever. I do lead a pretty goof life though so that helps. Well that and tornadoes form only in certain specific conditions. Look at where the bulk of the sin is in the US: Where do tornadoes occur (http://library.thinkquest.org/03oct/01424/where_do_tornadoes_occur.htm)

I disagree with that notion as well, I was just commenting on the video that adam posted that basically says God was mad and sent a tornado.

The time we have on earth is determined by God. From the little babe that can be taken to the old man that is taken, both are according to God's plan for them. Neither are the punishment of God's wrath, but are the loving gift to life in heaven.

Can the tornado's result be, in result of God's wrath, for something God used force to overcome. YES

So all those people did indeed deserve to die because of some sin they committed?

So all those people did indeed deserve to die because of some sin they committed?

No that is not true.. It was their time to go home with God, for what reason for each, is only known by God.


The time we have on earth is determined by God. From the little babe that can be taken to the old man that is taken, both are according to God's plan for them. Neither are the punishment of God's wrath, but are the loving gift to life in heaven.

We have no right to change or leave out any part of Gods word. We
Choose who we will serve. We are for Him or
Against Him, His word is the Word of God.
If we all put in or take out what we want in the bible it
Would not be only Gods word.
God loves all and receives all, we are all sinners and fall short in obedience.
God help us all and thank you for being a loving and forgiving God.

Blessings, Maggie 3

It just gets confusing. Adam said that tornadoes are the result of man's sins. It's odd that a whole family living quietly in the midwest would be called home all at once, I wonder why that would be?

Then of course there is the issue that tornadoes only occur in certain areas of the world, why is that?

It just gets confusing. Adam said that tornadoes are the result of man's sins. It's odd that a whole family living quietly in the midwest would be called home all at once, I wonder why that would be?

Maybe to spare them from hunger that would be resulted by the tornado. Maybe we are not to know why God determines such things in life so that we do not judge souls. Maybe so we can learn to REST in Full Assurance of our Faith in Christ who did raise from the dead.




Then of course there is the issue that tornadoes only occur in certain areas of the world, why is that?

The link said, which is what man says: The majority of tornadoes occur in agricultural areas.

Maybe we need to be more thankful for what we are given. Maybe we need to experience shortage so we can be more thankful.
Maybe so we can learn to REST in Full Assurance of our Faith in Christ.


This is off thread... so I think we should go back to what was the thread.. Hope what has been discussed will focus on Faith

Sorry mate, you're right.

Good for the Lutheran Church!

We have no right to change or leave out any part of Gods word. We
choose who we will serve. We are for Him or
against Him, His word is the Word of God.
If we all put in or take out what we want in the bible it
would not be only Gods word.
God loves all and receives all, we are all sinners and fall short in obediance.
God help us all and thank you for being a loving and forgiving God.

Blessings, Maggie 3

Yet realize that liberty to choose, was given unto all. Walk in righteousness or walk in darkness. The curse of sin was changed, and we were set free from the curse of sin.

Walk in the light of righteousness

I Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Isaiah 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide [it] not. Woe unto their soul! For they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

The OP question about more churches following the lead of the Lutheran church reminds me of a bit of rhyme I heard a long time ago.

Inscribed on a tombstone:

As you are now
So once was I
As I am now
You soon will be
Prepare yourself
To follow me.

To which someone later added:

To follow you
I'm not content
Until I know
Which way you went


Matt 15:14 (Jesus said)
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
(KJV)

Matt 15:14 (Jesus said)
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
(KJV)

As scripture has told us, many will calm to be teaches of Christ, and what they calm to do is in the name of Christ. (However, Jesus, also tells us )

Matthew 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23:And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Point of Fact:

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

We can't count the number of times that we have been foretold of deception, and evil works that will come calming to be in HIS name.

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mark 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many.

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

As the end draws near, we know there will be a famine for truth, because people are willing to give suck to the flood of lies that will come by the mouth of satan. Revelation 12:15-16 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

The OP question about more churches following the lead of the Lutheran church reminds me of a bit of rhyme I heard a long time ago.

Inscribed on a tombstone:

As you are now
So once was I
As I am now
You soon will be
Prepare yourself
To follow me.

To which someone later added:

To follow you
I'm not content
Until I know
Which way you went


Matt 15:14 (Jesus said)
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
(KJV)

Such a loving Christian attitude! I know who's falling in the ditch and it's the demagogues with the flat-earth-society manner of viewing the world.

No one is going to accept any longer the kind of old fashioned bigotry and prejudice spewed by Christian religious leaders of a thankfully bygone era.

Without turning this into an age old debate you know the word of God is plain about homosexuality

Faith in Christ gives us forgiveness from sin, and liberty to chose.

Yes! I only meant our physical death.Because of sin our bodies die and through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we are forgiven and live with the Lord forever!

without turning this into an age old debate you know the word of God is plain about homosexuality

What makes you think I give a hoot what your make-believe word of god says? What does Thor or Poseidon think of homosexuality? That would be a far more interesting question to me. And it is exactly as meaningful a question. Your bible is a fairytale and you know it.

What makes you think I give a hoot what your make-believe word of god says? What does Thor or Poseidon think of homosexuality? That would be a far more interesting question to me. And it is exactly as meaningful a question. Your bible is a fairytale and you know it.

If so then you should be more interested in how to bring homosexual behavior in the church of Thor or Poseidon and not in the church of Jesus Christ.
If you challenge the church of Jesus Christ, then you should be ready for the church of Jesus Christ to answear you.The time will come for us to see what is true and what is a fairytale.If you don't give a hoot what the Word of God says,then why getting into all this?But the answear of course is that the spirit of the world cannot stand the Spirit of God that dwells among the Church of Jesus Christ.
Oh yes , it is a war and you know what? You have already been defeated!

If so then you should be more interested in how to bring homosexual behavior in the church of Thor or Poseidon and not in the church of Jesus Christ.
If you challenge the church of Jesus Christ, then you should be ready for the church of Jesus Christ to answear you.The time will come for us to see what is true and what is a fairytale.If you don't give a hoot what the Word of God says,then why getting into all this?But the answear of course is that the spirit of the world cannot stand the Spirit of God that dwells among the Church of Jesus Christ.
Oh yes , it is a war and you know what? You have already been defeated!

Yeah, the spirit of the world versus the spirit of god, blah, blah, blah... seems like the world's been winning.Go sell that tired old line to the credulous idiots that have populated churches for centuries.

I'm not challenging anybody's church, just saying what one courageous Christian church did to come into the 21st century and leave the barbaric world of bronze age Palestine.

You guys won't quit until you have destroyed civilization and turned the clock make on man's moral evolution 2000 years. No. You are not going to win, not without a fight.

Yeah, the spirit of the world versus the spirit of god, blah, blah, blah....seems like the world's been winning.Go sell that tired old line to the credulous idiots that have populated churches for centuries.

I'm not challenging anybody's church, just saying what one courageous Christian church did to come into the 21st century and leave the barbaric world of bronze age Palestine.

You guys won't quit until you have destroyed civilization and turned the clock make on man's moral evolution 2000 years. No. You are not going to win, not without a fight.

You have just invited legeons of evil spirits to penetrate you and they will be very quick to do so.
I also surrender you to your master, maybe your soul will be saved so, as your last chance!
May God help you!

You have just invited legeons of evil spirits to penetrate you and they will be very quick to do so.
I also surrender you to your master, maybe your soul will be saved so, as your last chance!
May God help you!

Fear, scare-tactics, manipulation. That's what is all comes down to doesn't it? Pathetic this sort of superstition still exists in the 21st century.

Makes me wonder why Cadillac bothered to post on a Christian thread.

Rev 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with THE AUTHOR.

You lost before you started.

Makes me wonder why Cadillac bothered to post on a Christian thread.

Rev 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with THE AUTHOR.

You lost before you started.

You are right. I shouldn't bother with posting on this board. If you want to believe this stuff, fine. But keep it to yourselves. Keep me out of it. As long as your preachments don't encroach on secular civil society (which they always seem to), no problem. As Christopher Hitchens once said, "it's like joining an S&M club, if you want to do so, that's your business, but keep me out of it."

Oh, by the way, this was my thread, but of course your board. Just a friendly correction.

You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with THE AUTHOR.Then how about a response from THE AUTHOR.

Then how about a response from THE AUTHOR.

You already have it. It is your choice whether to RSVP or not.

By your own responsiveness or lack thereof, you choose your own destiny.

You have a great privilege. Use it wisely.

You have a great privilege. Use it wisely.I know, I have. Thanks for your concern.

Cadi,

Your question is why don't other churches follow the lead?

Because it is a sin according to God's word. I have nothing against a gay person. I have nothing against a heterosexual couple who live in sin and won't marry. BUT I have something against a church who allows a minister who is living in a KNOWN sin to preach the word of God. I'm not talking about sinning. I'm talking about a sin lifestyle and there are many forms. Sin is sin is sin. It doesn't change. Incidentally I wouldn't want a pastor to get up and preach drunk either. I am NOT putting sin on a scale but when the Christian Churches start decidiing what is SIN and what isn't when the BIBLE clearly and plainly defines it... I wouldn't want anything to do with it.

Look, I'm no saint and have done plenty wrong in my Christian life. I heard someone on AMHD suggest that Christians pick what is right or wrong depending on what THEY want. Well I don't think I pick anything. It is what it is. I have sinned and Lived in it too... but I still KNEW it was wrong all the while. If I found a Church that accepted my sin, embraced it and said you are OK, you don't have to change.. then I would suggest they gave up Christianity all together. It is what Paul warned Timothy against... a doctrine of demons.

A Christian church should accept anyone because the Lord Jesus does. However the Lord Jesus expects us to change too. So should a Christian church. Read 1 Corinthians 5. Paul got on that church for NOT dealing with a known sin lifestyle.

This may rub you the wrong way.. but I didn't write the Bible and I sure ain't interested in RE-writing it. I'm willing to let God be God and I believe him at his word. THIS is the reason not all churches will follow the lead.

Cadi,

Your question is why don't other churches follow the lead?

Because it is a sin according to God's word. I have nothing against a gay person. I have nothing against a heterosexual couple who live in sin and won't marry. BUT i have something against a church who allows a minister who is living in a KNOWN sin to preach the word of God. I'm not talking about sinning. I'm talking about a sin lifestyle and there are many forms. Sin is sin is sin. It doesn't change. Incidently I wouldn't want a pastor to get up and preach drunk either. I am NOT putting sin on a scale but when the Christian Churches start decidiing what is SIN and what isn't when the BIBLE clearly and plainly defines it...I wouldn't want anything to do with it.

Look, I'm no saint and have done plenty wrong in my Christian life. I heard someone on AMHD suggest that Christians pick and choose what is right or wrong depending on what THEY want. Well I don't think I pick and choose anything. It is what it is. I have sinned and Lived in it too...but i still KNEW it was wrong all the while. If I found a Church that accepted my sin, embraced it and said you are ok, you don't have to change..then I would suggest they gave up Christianity all together. It is what Paul warned Timothy against...a doctrine of demons.

A Christian church should accept anyone because the Lord Jesus does. However the Lord Jesus expects us to change too. So should a Christian church. Read 1 Corinthians 5. Paul got on that church for NOT dealing with a known sin lifestyle.

This may rub you the wrong way..but i didn't write the Bible and I sure ain't interested in RE-writing it. I'm willing to let God be God and I believe him at his word. THIS is the reason not all churches will follow the lead.

Not all churches believe every book in the bible or ever passage is true. I don't accept the bible at all and I don't read it. I don't want it or anything to do with it. It's not picking and choosing it's simply a different belief system, one that's less dogmatic, one that rejects fundamentalist extremism. The views you express are extremist. You think because some ignorant sheepherder in the Middle East 2000 years ago who thought the earth was flat said something or wrote something and someone 400 years later tossed it in a book, decided it was god's word, that it is god speaking and has some relevance today. That's how stupid the whole thing is.

Not all churches believe every book in the bible or ever passage is true. I don't accept the bible at all and I don't read it. I don't want it or anything to do with it. It's not picking and choosing it's simply a different belief system, one that's less dogmatic, one that rejects fundamentalist extremism. The views you express are extremist. You think because some ignorant sheepherder in the Middle East 2000 years ago who thought the earth was flat said something or wrote something and someone 400 years later tossed it in a book, decided it was god's word, that it is god speaking and has some relevance today. That's how stupid the whole thing is.

Wow, I hate it that we are getting off on the wrong foot here... BUT CADILAC, do me a favor... don't tell me WHAT I THINK... k? You asked a question, I gave you an answer. You don't have to LIKE the answer. That is cool with me. If you don't care what the Bible has to say... why post the question in Christianity... why do you care what churches follow the lead on this topic?

I don't care what other Islam thinks about a topic ( not picking on the muslims just using them as an example... and I don't care if they change their doctrines to make other Islamic believers happy. I don't care and I don't post questions on that board because I don't care. I REALLY don't think the Quran is the truth and I don't get angry at the people who live by it. I think they are deceived. So... I'm wondering IF you don't care... why do you ask? I'm curious. Because it sounds like to me you DO care and you are a little angry at fundies like myself who believe the word of God is truth.

I think you have been hurt by some so called Christian.. that is my take and I could be wrong... wouldn't be the first time.

Wow, I hate it that we are getting off on the wrong foot here....BUT CADILAC, do me a favor...don't tell me WHAT I THINK...k? You asked a question, I gave you an answer. You don't have to LIKE the answer. That is cool with me. If you don't care what the Bible has to say.....why post the question in Christianity...why do you care what churches follow the lead on this topic?

I don't care what other Islam thinks about a topic ( not picking on the muslims just using them as an example...and I don't care if they change their doctrines to make other Islamic believers happy. I don't care and I don't post questions on that board because I don't care. I REALLY don't think the Quran is the truth and I don't get angry at the people who live by it. I think they are decieved. So.....I'm wondering IF you don't care....why do you ask? I'm curious. Because it sounds like to me you DO care and you are a little angry at fundies like myself who believe the word of God is truth.

I think you have been hurt by some so called Christian..that is my take and I could be wrong...wouldn't be the first time.

You are right, I have been hurt by Christianity, and that's because all religion always hurts everyone at some level or another. As a gay man, yeah, I've been hurt by Christianity that rejects me and who I am or tells me I have to be someone or something that I cannot be and don't want to be (like heterosexual). Yeah, that's a lot to be hurt about.

You are right, I have been hurt by Christianity, and that's because all religion always hurts everyone at some level or another. As a gay man, yeah, I've been hurt by Christianity that rejects me and who I am or tells me I have to be someone or something that I cannot be and don't want to be (like heterosexual). Yeah, that's a lot to be hurt about.

I have been hurt myself by so called Christians, so I can sympathize with you. All I know for sure is, Christianity SHOULDN'T hurt anyone! It should be about love. I don't believe it is a religion.. it is about a relationship with the Lord Jesus. So I sincerely am sorry for your pain. I think sometimes it is the worst kind of hurt because Christians are suppose to represent Christ.

One last thought... I don't believe that the Lord Jesus rejects ANYONE who is interested in a relationship with him. :) In fact, he doesn't reject anyone who doesn't want a relationship with him. He is ALWAYS trying to woo mankind to HIMSELF.

As a gay man, yeah, I've been hurt by Christianity that rejects me Hello caddy:

You're not going to get any sympathy over here. Did you watch that video? You must have experienced worse, though... I cannot imagine the pain of being gay and attempting to live a Christian life...

So, let's kick their butts over on the current affairs pages where I've been having my way with the righty's for a long time. In time, like the segregationists during the civil rights movement, they'll come to see the error of their ways.

excon

Ex,

Not so, I feel badly for Caddy. SINCERELY!! I want him to know that just because some so called Christian rejected him doesn't mean the Lord Jesus does. Heck Ex, he doesn't even reject YOU.. lol ;)

As far as kicking the "righty's" butt... better not let Gal or Speech here you say that. Thems fighting words. :)

Hello caddy:

You're not gonna get any sympathy over here. Did you watch that video?? You must have experienced worse, though... I cannot imagine the pain of being gay and attempting to live a Christian life....

So, let's kick their butts over on the current affairs pages where I've been having my way with the righty's for a long time. In time, like the segregationists during the civil rights movement, they'll come to see the error of their ways.

excon

Well I'm not attempting to live a Christian life, that's for sure. See, but your comment served to point out a major problem with Christianity-- it has a distorted view of reality (for example, that gay people do not exist and are merely straight people who have lost their way, or have picked up bad habits that can be changed).

Ex,

Not so, I feel badly for Caddy. SINCERELY!!! I want him to know that just because some so called Christian rejected him doesn't mean the Lord Jesus does. Heck Ex, he doesn't even reject YOU..lol ;)

As far as kickin the "righty's" butt...better not let Gal or Speech here ya say that. Thems fightin words. :)

Why feel bad? Why would I want to be a part of some religion (like Christianity) that rejects the very nature of who I am? It would be like a black person wanting to join a white racist church. It makes no sense.

Well I'm not attempting to live a Christian life, that's for sure. See, but your comment served to point out a major problem with Christianity-- it has a distorted view of reality (for example, that gay people do not exist and are merely straight people who have lost their way, or have picked up bad habits that can be changed).

You are wrong. I can speak for myself that I live in reality and I KNOW there are Gay people in this world and have been as long as humans have been on this earth. I get it.

I feel bad because I am a person who has feelings and I know what it is like to be hurt. I don't want to see anyone hurt and angry.

AND last but not least... Christianity is not a religion... it is a relationship with Jesus Christ. When you understand that the Lord Jesus isn't rejecting you at all, maybe you can have a relationship with him. Forget about Christians who you feel don't live in reality and think you are really just straight and lost your way. My suggestion is to get to know Jesus and quit looking at Christians. Heck, most of them on this site alone I want to smack every now and again myself. I'm just saying... don't give up on the Lord Jesus just because of a few Christians who may have meant well but were really unable to direct and counsel you appropriately.

You are wrong. I can speak for myself that I live in reality and I KNOW there are Gay people in this world and have been as long as humans have been on this earth. I get it.

I feel bad because I am a person who has feelings and I know what it is like to be hurt. I don't want to see anyone hurt and angry.

AND last but not least...Christianity is not a religion...it is a relationship with Jesus Christ. When you understand that the Lord Jesus isn't rejecting you at all, maybe you can have a relationship with him. Forget about Christians who you feel don't live in reality and think you are really just straight and lost your way. My suggestion is to get to know Jesus and quit looking at Christians. Heck, most of them on this site alone I wanna smack every now and again myself. I'm just saying .....don't give up on the Lord Jesus just because of a few Christians who may have meant well but were really unable to direct and counsel you appropriately.

You certainly seem well-intentioned, I can say that for you. You keep saying Christianity is not a religion but a relationship, and so on. Yes, I've heard that many many times in the past; it's a very old and banal expression. But the truth is Christianity fits every definition of a religion there is. Religion, relationship, it doesn't matter what your choice of terms.

I'm sure you realize many people --maybe most-- live their lives with no religion of any kind and lead full, happy, moral and fulfilling lives. I guess the point is you don't need it, it adds nothing to your life and quite to the contrary often does much harm. It's really just childish superstition.

God created us to have an instinctive fear, and this fear might be for snakes, a big black scorpio spider or let's say satan and sin. In any case when we fear something, we usually run from it. We need to get away because the instinctive fear is telling us RUN!.

God does not want us to befriend the snake, the spider, or the sin of satan because they represent death to us. This instinctive fear is meant to help us, and protect us.

God has and will send HIS wrath to destroy the spider, the snake, and sin of satan. So God's wrath becomes something to fear, " if " we have befriended them instead of running away. We need to stay clear of HIS wrath because HIS wrath will destroy all that have turned to befriend and enjoy these things.

God tells us this uncleanness comes through the lusts of our own hearts,(befriended / enjoyed); and God will give individuals up to their lust. Because they changed the truth of God into a lie, and now worship and served the creature more than the Creator God.

And because they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

The call is for salvation, unto all. All that sin, all that are willing to hold FAITH in Christ Jesus.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to HIS abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

REPENT and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This is not just for the gay, it is for all sinners. A willing heart to be all God created us to be, in HIS image of righteousness.

God created us to have an instinctive fear, and this fear might be for snakes, a big black scorpio spider or let's say satan and sin. In any case when we fear something, we usually run from it. We need to get away because the instinctive fear is telling us RUN!.

God does not want us to befriend the snake, the spider, or the sin of satan because they represent death to us. This instinctive fear is meant to help us, and protect us.

God has and will send HIS wrath to destroy the spider, the snake, and sin of satan. So God's wrath becomes something to fear, " if " we have befriended them instead of running away. We need to stay clear of HIS wrath because HIS wrath will destroy all that have turned to befriend and enjoy these things.

God tells us this uncleanness comes through the lusts of our own hearts,(befriended / enjoyed); and God will give individuals up to their lust. Because they changed the truth of God into a lie, and now worship and served the creature more than the Creator God.

And because they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

The call is for salvation, unto all. All that sin, all that are willing to hold FAITH in Christ Jesus.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to HIS abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

REPENT and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This is not just for the gay, it is for all sinners. A willing heart to be all God created us to be, in HIS image of righteousness.

Was this intended for me to read or is it just some generalized scare tactic? Your loving god doesn't sound very loving to me. This is just coercive garbage and nothing else. Believe or else! It that is? That's the best you can come up with?

It's nice to know that there isn't the slightest bit of evidence that any of it is true.

Further, and finally, your entire commentary was based upon certain (rather childish) premises that are not true, God created us to have an instinctive fear, and this fear might be for snakes, a big black scorpio spider or let's say satan and sin. What a fatuous remark. I don't fear snakes or scorpions or spiders. And many of the things you call "sin" are not immoral anyway and I certainly don't fear them. For example, covetousness. What's wrong with wishing you had something your neighbor had? Wanting something the neighbor has can be good because it's often motivational. It's wrong to steal, but not to simply wish for something someone else has. You call sex outside of marriage a "sin"? I don't. There is nothing wrong with it at all, as long as it is between consenting adults in private. So you see, your examples of fearing supposedly bad things because god put fear of them in your heart is ridiculous.

Was this intended for me to read or is it just some generalized scare tactic? Your loving god doesn't sound very loving to me. This is just coercive garbage and nothing else. Believe or else! It that is? That's the best you can come up with?

It's nice to know that there isn't the slightest bit of evidence that any of it is true.
.

Who was it intended for? Quoted: This is not just for the gay, it is for all sinners.


This is not just for the gay, it is for all sinners. A willing heart to be all God created us to be, in HIS image of righteousness.



(Matthew 4:4) It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Roman 1:22-23 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Romans 1:24-25 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 1:26-27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient

Romans 1:29-31 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,whisperers, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

slightest bit of evidence ? God knew it all and wrote every word to warn everyone, and teach us to fear sin that comes upon us. HIS wrath is for evil, and it is there to help us. Roman 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse (evidence)

Who was it intended for? Quoted: This is not just for the gay, it is for all sinners.




(Matthew 4:4) It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Roman 1:22-23 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Romans 1:24-25 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 1:26-27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient

Romans 1:29-31 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,whisperers, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

slightest bit of evidence ? God knew it all and wrote every word to warn everyone, and teach us to fear sin that comes upon us. HIS wrath is for evil, and it is there to help us. Roman 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse (evidence)

Instead of the bible quotes why not use your own thoughts and words? I don't accept or believe the bible anymore than you accept or believe some other religious text. The bible was written by ignorant sheepherders in the Middle East 2000 years ago who thought the earth was flat. What relevance has it today, especially to me? Would you pay attention if I quoted the Book of Mormon?

Cadillac, your posst question has been answered by several people.

Most churches still follow the Bible, and so will not follow the Lutheran lead on this.

You should move this to the discussion board, as it is clear that you did not want an answer to a question, but an excuse for your sin.

If you do not believe the Bible, have no use for God, and are not going to go to church anywhere, why bother to ask the queston in the first place?

Looks like you are a troll.

Instead of the bible quotes why not use your own thoughts and words?

Posted in #48 was my own words. The request made was for the slightest bit of evidence, and the evidence I have offered is the written WORD of GOD. Whether or not you determine the bible reliable, is your decision.

I find the same test applies to the biblical documents as we would to any other ancient writing. In the law, testimony is a form of evidence that is obtained from a witness who makes a solemn statement or declaration of fact. The biblical documents have testimonies confirmed by several witnesses.

I do not deny you, your own choices in life. We are both accountable to our own choice.

Please know I do not attempt to persuade you either way. I offered my opinion to the question as to Why don't more churches follow the lead? And have followed by answering a request addressed to me

Posted in #48 was my own words. The request made was for the slightest bit of evidence, and the evidence I have offered is the written WORD of GOD. Whether or not you determine the bible reliable, is your decision.

I find the same test applies to the biblical documents as we would to any other ancient writing. In the law, testimony is a form of evidence that is obtained from a witness who makes a solemn statement or declaration of fact. The biblical documents have testimonies confirmed by several witnesses.

I do not deny you, your own choices in life. We are both accountable to our own choice.

Please know I do not attempt to persuade you either way. I offered my opinion to the question as to Why don't more churches follow the lead? And have followed by answering a request addressed to me

First of all there was no bible until about the 4th century. There were only scattered writings some called scripture, many of which conflicted with one another. Religious leaders of the time got together and decided some scriptures were "in" and that others were "out"(in terms of what they thought "god's word" was). Then later some other books got tossed (the apocrypha); yet, you sit here today and say your "bible" is the "word of god"? Who says it's the word of god, how do you know that? Your bible which consists of what?

You see it's all nonesense. There's no evidence for any of it. It's a fairytale.

Cadillac, your posst question has been answered by several people.

Most churches still follow the Bible, and so will not follow the Lutheran lead on this.

You should move this to the discussion board, as it is clear that you did not want an answer to a question, but an excuse for your sin.

If you do not believe the Bible, have no use for God, and are not going to go to church anywhere, why bother to ask the queston in the first place?

Looks like you are a troll.

Whether I go to church or not, or refuse to believe the bible was not the point. It was a proper question concerning the church in general. There are plenty of gay men and lesbians who would like a place in the church not only as congregants but also as clergy and it is a valid question to ask why they cannot serve as pastors and still have normal committed relationships like their hetero counterparts. I was asking the question for them not for myself since I wouldn't go to any church anyway.

You see it's all nonesense. There's no evidence for any of it. It's a fairytale.

A scare tactic is manipulative words or actions which create a sense of fear, and these tactics are shown today as being funny. The reality of instinctive fear becomes useless if what is being said, and done is untrue.


"Don't Touch" "It's HOT" "You'll get Burnt"

Instinctively "I believe!" and from my experiences it is all true.

It becomes your choice. AND I pray you can experience the truth. Otherwise you can hurt alot of people.

A scare tactic is manipulative words or actions which create a sense of fear, and these tactics are shown today as being funny. The reality of instinctive fear becomes useless if what is being said, and done is untrue.


"Don't Touch" "It's HOT" "You'll get Burnt"

Instinctively "I believe!" and from my experiences it is all true.

It becomes your choice. AND I pray you can experience the truth. Otherwise you can hurt alot of people.

Instinctively I don't believe. Many people never believe, never have, and see the experiences of believers as nothing but self-deception.

You talk about hurting people? More people in history have been hurt by religion and for religious reasons than for any other. There are good people in the world who do good things, bad people who do bad things. But to make good people do bad things you need religion.

You talk about hurting people? More people in history have been hurt by religion and for religious reasons than for any other.

Agree and who hurt those people? Do you think that when people of religion were hurt it was not the evilness that hurt them? Do you think today we/America fight good people or do you think we flight against evilness?



There are good people in the world who do good things, bad people who do bad things. But to make good people do bad things you need religion.

Oh come on, you can't really think this?

When we are faced with the evilness coming at us, do we need to defend ourselves? You see I feel God put man upon the earth to protect his family and love everyone. It would be wonderful if life on earth could be as the eternal life we are promised. But it is not, and evilness has been as God says, sown among us here on earth. That's why we have our instinctive nature to help us, and as an American, I feel we are a nation under God's power of protection "if we abid in HIS will. We can be the servants of God that help and bring protection to other nations of people.

This is really off thread.. I do pray for you, and care that your heart Has chosen to be blinded in love for God.

Agree and who hurt those people? Do you think that when people of religion were hurt it was not the evilness that hurt them? Do you think today we/America fight good people or do you think we flight against evilness?



Oh come on, you can't really think this?

When we are faced with the evilness coming at us, do we need to defend ourselves? You see I feel God put man upon the earth to protect his family and love everyone. It would be wonderful if life on earth could be as the eternal life we are promised. But it is not, and evilness has been as God says, sown among us here on earth. That's why we have our instinctive nature to help us, and as an American, I feel we are a nation under God's power of protection "if we abid in HIS will. We can be the servants of God that help and bring protection to other nations of people.

This is really off thread.. I do pray for you, and care that your heart Has chosen to be blinded in love for God.

I rather like and agree with what one of our founding fathers had to say about religion:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

The Age of Reason. Thomas Paine

Very well put I think. Religion, including yours, was set of (invented) to terrify and enslave mankind and monopolize power and profit. That's all the churches have ever done. Destroy the mind, tell people how to live and take their money.

I rather like and agree with what one of our founding fathers had to say about religion:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

The Age of Reason. Thomas Paine

Very well put I think. Religion, including yours, was set of (invented) to terrify and enslave mankind and monopolize power and profit. That's all the churches have ever done. Destroy the mind, tell people how to live and take their money.

It's sad that the church of your background never demonstrated to you what being a Christian is all about.

None are perfect because they are made up of humans, but some are a lot closer to the pattern than others.

Agree and who hurt those people? Do you think that when people of religion were hurt it was not the evilness that hurt them? Do you think today we/America fight good people or do you think we flight against evilness?



Oh come on, you can't really think this?

When we are faced with the evilness coming at us, do we need to defend ourselves? You see I feel God put man upon the earth to protect his family and love everyone. It would be wonderful if life on earth could be as the eternal life we are promised. But it is not, and evilness has been as God says, sown among us here on earth. That's why we have our instinctive nature to help us, and as an American, I feel we are a nation under God's power of protection "if we abid in HIS will. We can be the servants of God that help and bring protection to other nations of people.

This is really off thread.. I do pray for you, and care that your heart Has chosen to be blinded in love for God.


All those who hurt or kill others believe they are right. How is it that only the Christians are right?

Very well put I think. Religion, including yours, was set of (invented) to terrify and enslave mankind and monopolize power and profit. That's all the churches have ever done. Destroy the mind, tell people how to live and take their money.

Well as for me, I consider myself to be non-denominational and simply a child of God. The profit is life eternal, and contrary to enslavement, I believe we were set free and given liberty to choose (free will). My belief is that our Creator has given us love in every possible way that is possible.

Just as I believe there is a God, I also know there is evilness. And as a mother, I would protect and give my life daily for my children in a fight against evil. As a person, I would give my life daily to confess my love in ONE Faith, One Lord, One Baptism, and One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.

It seems to me you're set against man/religions that have made God's love for you something it is not. However, I don't disbelieve that religion in some cases have tried to set discipline and rules up to help people follow God's will. Not all are bad and not all are good, and very similar to people themselves.

All those who hurt or kill others believe they are right. How is it that only the Christians are right?

Who said Christians?

Well as for me, I consider myself to be non-denominational and simply a child of God. The profit is life eternal, and contrary to enslavement, I believe we were set free and given liberty to choose (free will). My belief is that our Creator has given us love in every possible way that is possible.

Just as I believe there is a God, I also know there is evilness. And as a mother, I would protect and give my life daily for my children in a fight against evil. As a person, I would give my life daily to confess my love in ONE Faith, One Lord, One Baptism, and One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.

It seems to me you're set against man/religions that have made God's love for you something it is not. However, I don't disbelieve that religion in some cases have tried to set discipline and rules up to help people follow God's will. Not all are bad and not all are good, and very similar to people themselves.


I love Thomas Paine's remarks that "my mind is my own church." Thank you. Yes. I don't need some other poorly evolved primate telling what his or her god said and thus instructing me on how to live my life. What an affront to my own autonomy that is.

What freedom is there in religion? It's the very definition of enslavement. Free to do what? Worship and praise god endlessly, grovelling before your god? What's so free about that? Would you demand that of your children? Of course not. Would you be so presumptuous as to call that free? How absurd.

I love Thomas Paine's remarks that "my mind is my own church." Thank you. Yes. I don't need some other poorly evolved primate telling what his or her god said and thus instructing me on how to live my life. What an affront to my own autonomy that is.

What freedom is there in religion? It's the very definition of enslavement. Free to do what? Worship and praise god endlessly, grovelling before your god? What's so free about that? Would you demand that of your children? Of course not. Would you be so presumptuous as to call that free? How absurd.

Again off thread, and yes I would answer I do expect my children to follow by my rules within my household. It's discipline and done for everyone's own good and welfare.

Life outside the household isn't different from that, because no matter where you go there are rules and owners of the rules.

I admit we always have someone that want to be the boss and take the power into their own hands. And they hurt everyone else in doing so because nothing can run smoothly and there comes the trouble makers.. The bad guy..

OFF thread!

Again off thread, and yes I would answer I do expect my children to follow by my rules within my household. It's discipline and done for everyone's own good and welfare.

Life outside the household isn't different from that, because no matter where you go there are rules and owners of the rules.

I admit we always have someone that want to be the boss and take the power into their own hands. And they hurt everyone else in doing so because nothing can run smoothly and there comes the trouble makers.. The bad guy..

OFF thread!

But you'd never treat your children the way your god treats you and call that love, or say it was kindness. You don't demand your children worship you, or grovel before you. And you would never be so cruel as to wish to keep your children weak, small and dependent, and under your power and control their entire lives. A true act of love would be freeing them to be themselves and be independent. The god of Christianity never does that. That god keeps you a slave for an eternity and call's it deliverance.

But you'd never treat your children the way your god treats you and call that love, or say it was kindness. You don't demand your children worship you, or grovel before you. And you would never be so cruel as to wish to keep your children weak, small and dependent, and under your power and control their entire lives. A true act of love would be freeing them to be themselves and be independent. The god of Christianity never does that. That god keeps you a slave for an eternity and call's it deliverance.

You know what Cadillac, I don't know where you got your idea about God, I don't know why either. But the God I love, and who loves me, has given me my 3 children. And has given us 4 grandchildren. I freely love and am thankful to God for all that He is, and continues to do for me each day.

And when I look at the path my life has taken over the years, I rest very comfortable knowing God is watching over us all. My heart trust God because at least I know He says nothing He doesn't mean. No scare tactics, it's all true.

I don't like the bad guys, and God doesn't like the bad guys because they hurt others.

~in Christ

You know what Cadillac, I don't know where you got your idea about God, I don't know why either. But the God I love, and who loves me, has given me my 3 children. And has given us 4 grandchildren. I freely love and am thankful to God for all that He is, and continues to do for me each day.

And when I look at the path my life has taken over the years, I rest very comfortable knowing God is watching over us all. My heart trust God because at least I know He says nothing He doesn't mean. No scare tactics, it's all true.

I don't like the bad guys, and God doesn't like the bad guys because they hurt others.

~in Christ

My idea of god comes from the same place as yours. Will you still go to heaven if you reject god? Not in your religion. So it's forced: believe or get smashed. Where's the love and freedom in that? Who would want to be under 24 hour a day surveillance, like god keeps you under and who would want to be judged merely by their thoughts? That's not love, that cruelty and enslavement.Your idea of freedom and love is a crude distortion of reality.

So, Cadillac,

You don't like Christianity?

You should thank the God you don't believe in every day that you don't live under Islam.

You KNOW what they would do to you.

Nothing is forced, it is a choice,

As for as the original posts, there are many groups that call thierself Lutheran, few are liberal. In fact gay rights ( which is not a right at all) is not within the teachings of Luther, and those churches calling thierself Lutheran go against his teachings on this.

Of course personally any church accepting gay behavior go against the bible and stop being christian at that point anyway

I don't like the bad guys, and God doesn't like the bad guys because they hurt others.

~in Christ

You asked who specified Christianity when I asked why the Christians are right and everyone else is wrong, bad. Answer: You did.

This is the christianity board, and as such you are to get answers from a christian view point,

If you don't want to know what christians teach, please don't come and post here.

Next if you are not answering a question from a christian view point, that is what is expceted.

You can't give christian answers on a muslim board, and you don't get dishwasher answers on the auto board.

Simoneaugie,

That hasn't been my experience at all... I have felt just the opposite. Oh well I still think anyone should be able to answer but I also think it is appropriate to let the OP know if your answer isn't really christian.. or biblical.

Psst, Caddy,

You need to learn the difference between the QUESTION board and the DISCUSSION board.

Get it?

Psst, Caddy,

You need to learn the difference between the QUESTION board and the DISCUSSION board.

Get it??

It seems much of the same thing goes on in both boards either way you look at it.

caddy,

Dude, why do I always feel you are mad at me? Maybe i'm misreading your posts but I feel some misplaced anger directed at me.

Well anyway my experience so far on AMHD has been that if you are someone who believes the bible is absolute truth on the Christian board...you aren't necessarily popular. for lack of a better term. But that's ok...i never WAS all that popular. ha

Caddy, all i can tell ya is that I believe the Bible is the written word of God. Inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by men. I believe this by Faith....i can't prove a thing. but the more you read the Bilbe and you understand it the more you realize it isn't just a book. It is absolutely Awesome and mere men could not have written it.

Biblical for me is anything written in those 66 books called the OT and NT

look I respect your right NOT to believe and to post anything you'd like to.

I think I said before i don't usually try to post answers on the Islam board. Because I am not a muslim and I don't read the quran. I have asked a question there before. I just wouldn't attempt to try to answer one. And the reason i think ( could be wrong) that Fr_Chuck is not happy about your posts is not that you aren't a Christian..because it is true many people answer on the Christian board that are not professing Christians but it is because of the disrespect for the Bible and Christianity you display in your posts.

Hope I answered your questions... now please stop being so darned irk with me. :)


I'm not angry with you, of course not. That would be absurd. I think all I was pointing out was that we subject the bible and its teachings to none of the critical analysis and scrutiny that we apply to other subjects-- like science for instance. People just accept the bible because they accept it. There's no real answer for why or reason justifying it. It may be upbringing, it may be experience. Who knows? My personal feeling is that much it is genetic. Not that there's a faith gene, but there is likely some genetic predispostion toward believing in the supernatural -whatever form that takes- that some people seem to have and others don't. It seems to run in families as well. Atheist households produce believers and the households of believers produce atheists.

I'm not angry with you, of course not. That would be absurd. I think all I was pointing out was that we subject the bible and its teachings to none of the critical analysis and scrutiny that we apply to other subjects-- like science for instance. People just accept the bible because they accept it. There's no real answer for why or reason justifying it. It may be upbringing, it may be experience. Who knows? My personal feeling is that much it is genetic. Not that there's a faith gene, but there is likely some genetic predispostion toward believing in the supernatural -whatever form that takes- that some people seem to have and others don't. It seems to run in families as well. Atheist households produce believers and the households of believers produce atheists.

When you say that the Bible has not been subjected to any critical anylisis, you are flat out wrong.

Those who compiled the writings that were put into the Bible examined each one critically, to see if it contained contradictions, was historically accurate, whether it was written by the one it was attributed to, whether it fit the chronology it was supposed to, etc. Every scrap of manuscript they had was compared to see if they agreed or not. Those that disagreed with the majority texts (about 80%) were rejected. (I am talking about the King James version here)

Only when a passage had passed all known tests to eliminate false texts was it placed in the Bible.

When you say that the Bible has not been subjected to any critical anylisis, you are flat out wrong.

Those who compiled the writings that were put into the Bible examined each one critically, to see if it contained contradictions, was historically accurate, whether it was written by the one it was attributed to, whether it fit the chronology it was supposed to, etc. Every scrap of manuscript they had was compared to see if they agreed or not. Those that disagreed with the majority texts (about 80%) were rejected. (I am talking about the King James version here)

Only when a passage had passed all known tests to eliminate false texts was it placed in the Bible.

Oh yeah. Some wackos in the middle ages examined some texts and made some judgment call about what was in and what was out and that's good enough for you? Amazing. Who were these people by the way? Name one. And what qualified that person (even if you can name one) to decide anything for us today, let alone what god's word supposedly is?

No thanks. I can trust my own mind in deciding what is god's word and what isn't. And there is no word of god because there is no god, or if there is, it's an impersonal (deist) god that does not intervene or care about human affairs.

The original bible was promulgated centuries before the middle ages by the Catholic Church after many years of study, discussion, prayer and guidance by the Holy Spirit.
That bible is essentially very much the same and most of the recognized bible versions we have today.
The original KJV did have the Deuterocanonical books in it but because of Protestant pressure PLUS a shortage of paper at that time the publisher decided to no longer publish those books in future editions.
So what we have today are many versions of the bible which are incomplete.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The original bible was promulgated centuries before the middle ages by the Catholic Church after many years of study, discussion, prayer and guidance by the Holy Spirit.
That bible is essentially very much the same and most of the recognized bible versions we have today.
The original KJV did have the Deuterocanonical books in it but because of Protestant pressure PLUS a shortage of paper at that time the publisher decided to no longer publish those books in future editions.
So what we have today are many versions of the bible which are incomplete.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Right, but the bible was put together in the 4th century AD. Who were the people that decided what was in and what was out? And what gave them the right to decide for today, for us living in 2009, what is and isn't the word of god? That's what I'd like to know and no one even questions it! Amazing.

The bible is rubbish anyway, as far as I'm concerned so I couldn't care less. But it only serves to show how foolish believers are today.

cadillac59,
It is a matter of choice and for many also one of faith.
And the are hundreds of people who do question it, even some are bible haters.
The basic point about belief in it is the fact that billions of people believe it is the inspired word of God and that the Holy Spirit inspired The Church to promulgate it and guided those who were working on it.
I and pne pf the many who do believe that.
Obviously you do not and I and sadden about that.
There is so much in the bible that can make your life better and richer with great spiritual value.
Peace and kidnness,
Fred

cadillac59,
It is a matter of choice and for many also one of faith.
And the are hundreds of people who do question it, even some are bible haters.
The basic point about belief in it is the fact that billions of people beleive it is the inspired word of God and that the Holy Spirit inspired The Church to promulgate it and guided those who were working on it.
I and pne pf the many who do believe that.
Obviously you do not and I and sadden about that.
There is so much in the bible that can make your life better and richer with great spiritual value.
Peace and kidnness,
Fred

I really hate to argue with you Fred because I can tell you are a really sweet and kind person and I respect you for that. But I've just lost my faith. I won't accept a religion that rejects me for being gay. It's as simple as that. Besides, I think much of what makes people religious is genetic. Some are predisposed to it and others are not. Maybe I'm just one who's not.

cadillac59,
So far you have made your choice as I have mine.
My hope and prayer is that you will eventually find a greater value in Christianity than you have now.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Cadillac59, whether people differ with you and how you are or not, in the end of the day they do not matter. All that matters is that you do your best with God and always trying to improve yourself to what He wants you to be. Not the people and not the church. Because people will always try and intentionally hurt others because they are different and yet turn around and be the biggest hypocrites. But, only God knows your heart and as long as you try and strive to be the best that you can be and believe in Him, then that's all that really matters. God will judge them accordingly.

Cadillac59, whether people differ with you and how you are or not, in the end of the day they do not matter. All that matters is that you do your best with God and always trying to improve yourself to what He wants you to be. Not the people and not the church. Because people will always try and intentionally hurt others because they are different and yet turn around and be the biggest hypocrits. But, only God knows your heart and as long as you try and strive to be the best that you can be and believe in Him, then that's all that really matters. God will judge them accordingly.

Thanks for your remarks, Golden Girl. Yes, I tend to agree with much of what you said: what people think of me and how they differ doesn't really matter. And yes people do often tend to try and hurt others who are different all the while being hypocrites.

At the moment I'm not sure what I think about god or if god even exists. But if I decide to return to church it will surely be to the one I left or one like it, the Lutheran church which is part of the ELCA [Evangelical Lutheran Church in America] which I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. That would be the only place I would feel at home.

Thanks for your remarks, Golden Girl. Yes, I tend to agree with much of what you said: what people think of me and how they differ doesn't really matter. And yes people do often tend to try and hurt others who are different all the while being hypocrites.

At the moment I'm not sure what I think about god or if god even exists. But if I decide to return to church it will surely be to the one I left or one like it, the Lutheran church which is part of the ELCA [Evangelical Lutheran Church in America] which I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. That would be the only place I would feel at home.

I see. Go where you feel God draws you to and where you feel at home, as our paths may be different and we all have different paths in life. But it is where the paths leads us to that matters. I'm judged for being different also as my father is Ethiopian and my mother is Cherokee/black American mixed. So, I do not quite fit in as I am different. I do not believe God base us on denominations or any other labels, but by our hearts, our souls, and with Him alone.

Who is it that persecutes who? I want only to love my brothers and sisters who are the children of God, and do walk in the spirit. ( Romans 8:1 Romans 8:4 Gal 5:16 Gal 5:25 )

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

BONDAGE:
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Who can Walk as Christ walked? God Knows!

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The answer to all of this is prayer. To call upon God.. To seek God.. To Knock.. Pray that you can be all God created you to be. Pray that evil bowes down and flees from you, so you hurt no one. AND: Ask in Jesus Name for this blessing.

Who is it that persecutes who? I want only to love my brothers and sisters who are the children of God, and do walk in the spirit. ( Romans 8:1 Romans 8:4 Gal 5:16 Gal 5:25 )

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

BONDAGE:
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Who can Walk as Christ walked? God Knows!

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The answer to all of this is prayer. To call upon God.. To seek God.. To Knock.. Pray that you can be all God created you to be. Pray that evil bowes down and flees from you, so you hurt no one. AND: Ask in Jesus Name for this blessing.




What's the point of all the bible quotes for someone who neither reads nor accepts the bible?

What's the point of all the bible quotes for someone who neither reads nor accepts the bible?

Because: " if " was mentioned.



At the moment I'm not sure what I think about god or if god even exists. But if I decide to return to church it will surely be to the one I left or one like it, the Lutheran church which is part of the ELCA [Evangelical Lutheran Church in America] which I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. That would be the only place I would feel at home.


So I wanted to show you the freedom you have if you decide to take it

~sincerely

Because: " if " was mentioned.




So I wanted to show you the freedom you have if you decide to take it

~sincerely

Freedom I have to do what? Pray? Is THAT it?

Freedom I have to do what? Pray? Is THAT it?

I can tell you didn't read the scriptures posted. " If " hasn't yet happened.. " I hope it does..

I can tell you didn't read the scriptures posted. " If " hasn't yet happened.. " I hope it does..



No I didn't read the bible quotes because I don't read the bible and am not interested in reading it.

cadillac59,
We should all be well aware of that by now.
Thanks for making it clear.
Best wishes,
Fred