I'm getting married this summer...
In what ways will he "rule" me? I'm fine with it if it's in a kind, loving, caring way. I'm fine with him not wanting me to go out drinking, not wanting me to have male friends he doesn't like, and I'm fine with him making big decisions in our live such as where we're going to live. But I don't like the idea of him telling me to go get him a glass of water when he's too lazy- I would just to be nice but if he DEMANDED it, that's another thing. He's not like that though and I couldn't think of a related example between the two of us. But here's one:

Sometimes he won't let me go out with my friends because he thinks guys will hit on me. Is that OK? I never get to go out, especially with the friends he doesn't like, one of which I have been friends with since kindergarten. He doesn't even like it when I'm just at her house (with no other guys around). He just doesn't like her and doesn't want me to be with her.

Where do you draw the line of "ruling" the woman.

What I'm basically trying to ask is what kind of authority does he have over me. I don't want to be treated like a slave or a child. Do I have to do everything he says? Do I have say in anything? Especially if my significant purpose is to be a mother, do I have to do what he says when it comes to parenting?

For, example, he thinks that when we have teenagers we should let them drink if they wish but only in our home so that they are safe . I think that's just a way of telling them it's OK when it's not. I like the idea of telling them to never do it but if they slip up and drink and are in a bad situation, regret it, need my help, whatever, to just call me no matter what time it is so I can help And get them out of a bad situation. I'm getting way ahead of the game since we don't even have kids yet but in this situation would I just have to let my kids drink in my house since he's the "ruler" of the household? And drinking in moderation isn't even against the bible (or am I wrong?) so I couldn't use the argument of following god's word before his.

And what about the roles of a woman:
She should also prepare healthy, nourishing meals in accordance with the food laws. See the papers Vegetarianism and the Bible (No. 183) and The Food Laws (No. 15); cf. also Leviticus 11:1-47 and Deuteronomy 14:21.
What if he's a better cook and refuses to eat my food because it tastes so bad? Ha ha.




PLEASE USE BIBLE PASSAGES TO BACK UP YOUR OPINIONS

The husband should not rule the wife.

The Bible says for the wife to submit to the husband AS he submits to God. Which means if he is following God then he will have your best interest at heart and not be ''ruling'' you.

If he thinks kids should drink then he is not submitted to God so the chain of submission is broke.

Eph 5: Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansinga her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”b 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

The husband should not rule the wife.

The Bible says for the wife to submit to the husband AS he submits to God. Which means if he is following God then he will have your best interest at heart and not be ''ruling'' you.

If he thinks kids should drink then he is not submitted to God so the chain of submission is broke.

Eph 5: Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansinga her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”b 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Do you know of a passage that would say drinking even in moderation is wrong? People always use the excuse of everyone in the bible drinking wine and I know it says only in moderation but I can't imagine giving a 17 year old some wine and saying "now, only drink a little bit" like they'll never want to have more than they should.

I was going to ask you what country you are in in my first reply but I'll ask here.

I don't know any Christians in the USA that tell kids to drink a little wine but I do know that it is common in Italy.

The Bible says IN moderation. I think each case is different according to the family and culture but other things need to be taken into consideration.
If you explain the situation you are dealing with a little better than might make it easier to answer what is best in your situation

Red wine has resversotol in it which is an antioxident which is why it was considered good in Bible days.

”No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments (1 Timothy 5:23).”


Here are a couple sites

I don't know how accurate they are because I'm getting too tired to read but they should cover the basics.

Christians and Alcohol (http://www.babylonfalls.org/forchristians/christandalcohol2sep06.html)

75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol (http://www.scionofzion.com/drinking.htm)

Some people use a reasoning against alcohol saying that some wine referred to in the Bible as acceptable was more like non alcoholic cider.

Okay, I don't frequent the Christianity boards anymore, but I saw this and I have to say something.

Husband as ruler?

Are we still living in the 1700's? Did we not get the right to vote, bear arms, fight for our country, get equal pay for equal work and all that jazz?

Are there really people still out there that allow this?

No bible passages from me, sorry, I'm just in shock.

When I got married we took out the verse "honor and obey" because we both knew it wasn't going to happen. We both honor each other, but obeying is what our dogs do.

I am an equal in my house. If he wants a glass of water he can get it himself. If he wants to eat and I'm not home, or don't feel like cooking, he knows how to work the stove. All the decisions in our household are made together, if we don't agree we talk it out and reach a compromise.

Obey. Ruler. Sigh.

Do you have to walk 10 steps behind him in public too?

N0help4u,
You made some excellent post and points on this.
At the moment there is nothing I can thing of to add other than the husband is not the ruler of the family, God is. The husband is expected to obey and follow Gods way.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

First 1200 or 1700 or 2100, the bible does not change, merely the desire of the hearts of the people who need to follow the word of God.

But the bible is not one verse, the churches that take each verse out of context are dangerous, since you have to look at where the manloves the women as Christ loves the church

Fr_Chuck,
Yes indeed.
A man who loves his wife as he should (and the bible does tell us what such love is) is not going to be a bossy person but rather a loving, understanding, cooperative spouse.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I was going to ask you what country you are in in my first reply but I'll ask here.

I don't know any Christians in the USA that tell kids to drink a little wine but I do know that it is common in Italy.

The Bible says IN moderation. I think each case is different according to the family and culture but other things need to be taken into consideration.
If you explain the situation you are dealing with a little better than might make it easier to answer what is best in your situation

Yes I'm in America. I know a lot of parents who let their kids drink but not many christian parents who allow it. I don't really have a specific situation. I don't even have kids yet. Haha. We were just talking about what it would be like to have kids in a few years when we're out of college. We just disagreed on how we would handle the no drinking situation. His parents let him drink and he started at an early age. My mother pounded me about not drinking or doing drugs and I was so against it all for the longest time but I still eventually drank when I was legally allowed to. We have our own opinions on what would work. It's not really an issue yet at all. I just wish I could find a verse to make him change his view. I'll show him the one you posted.

Red wine has resversotol in it which is an antioxident which is why it was considered good in Bible days.

”No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments (1 Timothy 5:23).”


Here are a couple sites

I don't know how accurate they are because I'm getting too tired to read but they should cover the basics.

Christians and Alcohol (http://www.babylonfalls.org/forchristians/christandalcohol2sep06.html)

75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol (http://www.scionofzion.com/drinking.htm)

some people use a reasoning against alcohol saying that some wine referred to in the Bible as acceptable was more like non alcoholic cider.

Thanks for the links, I'll read them tomorrow when I'm not so tired also :) goodnight. Sweet dreams.

Fr_Chuck,
Yes indeed.
A man who loves his wife as he should (and the bible does tell us what such love is) is not going to be a bossy person but rather a loving, understanding, cooperative spouse.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thanks. I was probably reading out of context. I was reading a huge article for hours that was full of verses and then someone's interpretation and explanations of the verses.


Here are some verses that seem to make the husband look like a controlling ruler:

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church

IPeter 3:1-2 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

It's certain words like "submit" "head of the wife" "subjection" "obey"

I know there are verses that follow that kind of tell the man how not to use his authority.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

So it's fine then to not have the man have the last word, final decision, as if he's the all knowing man? We can talk about it together and make our own decisions? This is how I imagined it all along and this is how we are now but it's not what I'm getting out of certain passages. I'm just trying to understand it all. I originally looked up the role of a christian woman because I'm getting married in the summer and when we talk about our future, he wants me working all the time even when we have kids but I want to stay home and raise them until they are all in school. So I was showing him passages in my favor. But then I saw passages in his favor that I don't like such as me doing his laundry. A woman should have the family’s clothing cared for and in good repair (Prov. 31:21).


There are other parts of the article talking about woman's roles that I was wondering if they MUST be followed. As an example, what if he cooks better? Does it really matter if I don't cook all of the family's meals? I grew up on Happy Meals and spagetti-o's. I always forget an egg or an ingrediant or overcook food. I'm a horrible cook. :p but I do get that it would work great in a family house hold having these separate roles and working together. I feel like I won't be following what the bible tells me to... or is it just a suggestion?

From the article:She should also prepare healthy, nourishing meals in accordance with the food laws. See the papers Vegetarianism and the Bible (No. 183) and The Food Laws (No. 15); cf. also Leviticus 11:1-47 and Deuteronomy 14:21.
[I]


My grandparents are the only people I grew up with who are married and my mother was the only one who raised me, so I don't even know how any of this is "supposed" to work or if there is any "supposed to" to it.

If you're a dedicated married christian can you just talk about how you run your household and make decisions together? It feels so weird to even ask that question because it seems so simple. Maybe I'm over complicating things.

Okay, I don't frequent the Christianity boards anymore, but I saw this and I have to say something.

Husband as ruler?

Are we still living in the 1700's? Did we not get the right to vote, bear arms, fight for our country, get equal pay for equal work and all that jazz?

Are there really people still out there that allow this?

No bible passages from me, sorry, I'm just in shock.

When I got married we took out the verse "honor and obey" because we both knew it wasn't going to happen. We both honor each other, but obeying is what our dogs do.

I am an equal in my house. If he wants a glass of water he can get it himself. If he wants to eat and I'm not home, or don't feel like cooking, he knows how to work the stove. All the decisions in our household are made together, if we don't agree we talk it out and reach a compromise.

Obey. Ruler. Sigh.

Do you have to walk 10 steps behind him in public too?

Ha ha. I know, that's how I feel.

My fiancé and I are both christian but I know way less about the bible. When we talk about the future he says he wants me to always work and that he won't support me. He'll be making 4 times as much as me (a computer scientist and I an art teacher). I just want to start having kids in a few years and wait until they are in school to start working and he doesn't like the idea for some reason. So since we are both Christians I was looking up verses as my "role" since staying home taking care of the kids would be in my favor.

But I don't think that what you're describing is against what the bible says. From what I read it is a partnership with two people working together to make the household and family work. But there are certain verses that I don't understand and that's why I'm asking people. I was bothered by certain words that were chosen such as "rule" or women being the "weaker vessel" but I read a lot more and it's not as bad as the wording sounds. There's verses telling a husband to love his wife as he loves god, to not disrespect her as he wouldn't do to god. So it's not like he's going to be like "go get me a beer woman!" like I was originally interpreting the passages.

I have no idea how christian women live these days since times are obviously not the same. I'm clueless. I don't even know what a lasting married couple looks like. I don't even know much about the bible. I'm just trying to understand it and that's what I'm asking from people. I'm probably just over complicating everything. Our relationship works fine the way it is now. The passages just threw me off and the more I read, the more I see that the way things are, are how they should be.

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

I respect your choices, I respect your religion, but I still can't get my head around it.

I've been married for 14 years, been with my husband for 19, we've lasted and will continue because that's who we are.

But, submitting to my husband, allowing him to make all the important decisions because he's a man, no.

If this is what you want, then by all means, go for it, but it's not for me.

The bible was written so long ago, you have to take into consideration that times have changed. Back then women weren't even considered human beings, simply because of their sex. They were forced to walk behind their husbands, shoeless, because they weren't worthy of shoes. Men could beat their wives, because they were property, not equals.

It's 2009, not 1709, and times have changed.

I really couldn't see myself cowtowing to a man, that's just not me.

If I lived in the 1700's I'd be burned at the stake, that's a fact, because I never would have submitted, I never will.

Good luck to you.

I respect your choices, I respect your religion, but I still can't get my head around it.

I've been married for 14 years, been with my husband for 19, we've lasted and will continue because that's who we are.

But, submitting to my husband, allowing him to make all the important decisions because he's a man, no.

If this is what you want, then by all means, go for it, but it's not for me.

The bible was written so long ago, you have to take into consideration that times have changed. Back then women weren't even considered human beings, simply because of their sex. They were forced to walk behind their husbands, shoeless, because they weren't worthy of shoes. Men could beat their wives, because they were property, not equals.

It's 2009, not 1709, and times have changed.

I really couldn't see myself cowtowing to a man, that's just not me.

If I lived in the 1700's I'd be burned at the stake, that's a fact, because I never would have submitted, I never will.

Good luck to you.

The unfair treatment of women was because of society not because of the bible. The passages I read were taken out of context from an article I was reading, making it sound like the man is an all knowing controlling ruler. But in the actual bible, right after that it tells the man to love his wife as he loves god, putting her on a very high petistool.

Many christian and catholic women in my family have not lived the traditional roles. My great grandmother in the 30's was a part of the industrial revolution when they finally let women work in the factories when all the men were off at war. She worked every day of her life because she wanted to. My aunt is a construction worker with my uncle and they make all the decisions in the family together, which is what I want. At first I wasn't getting the impression that it was OK from the out of context passages I was reading. And I was confused because I don't know any christian couples other than my grandparents who actually play those gender roles.

Basically I just read a bad sexist article thinking that the bible said the same when it doesn't at all.

Do you not believe in God?

Here's what disturbed me about your post;


sometimes he won't let me go out with my friends because he thinks guys will hit on me. Is that OK? I never get to go out, especially with the friends he doesn't like, one of which I have been friends with since kindergarten. He doesn't even like it when I'm just at her house (with no other guys around). He just doesn't like her and doesn't want me to be with her.

The words "let me" then "I never get to go out, especially with the friends he doesn't like"

That's controlling, demanding, domineering and in my life, not acceptable.

Another red flag that leads me to believe that you won't have a say in anything, that he does have control;


what I'm basically trying to ask is what kind of authority does he have over me. I don't want to be treated like a slave or a child. Do I have to do everything he says? Do I have say in anything? Especially if my significant purpose is to be a mother, do I have to do what he says when it comes to parenting?


Authority? Are you getting married or going to jail? Doing what he says? Is her your husband or your father? As for parenting, yes, you do have a say, they're you kids too.

This just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

Like I said before, I respect your choices, your religion, I really do, but this just shocks the heck out of me.

He is using God as an excuse to make himself God


I have one word

RUN

he is using God as an excuse to make himself God


I have one word

RUN



Out of greenies - but here's a pretend one. I was also rather horrified by the "he won't let me ..." statement.

Whether you (OP) realize it or not he already IS telling you what to do and if you obey this and any other directive, you are already submitting to his will. Saying it during a ceremony doesn't matter much if you're already doing it.

And what does believing or not believing in God have to do with it? Did I miss something? If you were addressing Alty she LIVES by the "do onto others" rule. Are you questioning her religious beliefs, belief system, integrity?

I certainly took the vow to love, honor and obey - and I had the choice whether to use the word "obey" in the ceremony. I'm a traditionalist so it stayed in.

Does it mean my husband controlled me, told me what to do, made decisions by himself? No.

As a side note in response to your statement "PLEASE USE BIBLE PASSAGES TO BACK UP YOUR OPINIONS" - caps are shouting and there's no need and please don't attempt to direct the manner in which your question(s) will be answered.

In general, research shows that egalitarian marriages last longer than those where the wife is expected to obey her husband. Major decisions should be negotiated, not decided by fiat by one person.

You might find this website thought provoking:
Support for Egalitarian Marriage (http://www.godswordtowomen.org/Preato3.htm)

If your fiancée is very rigid about whether you should or should not work once you have children, you should pay attention to that, as it can be a significant source of tension during the child rearing years.

My ex husband nagged me constantly because I DID work, whereas my sister's husband pressured her to work full time despite their having three children and her wanting to stay home with them. Their kids did not turn out well... My other sister had five kids and stayed home and her kids turned out better. I had two and worked part time and I am happy with the result.

Darnit, I have to spread the love too.

Judy, that's just it, saying it in a ceremony, well, that's one thing, letting your husband control you is another.

The OP's fiancé is already controlling her. She claims not to want to be a slave, but she already is one. Submit or else, do what I say or else, I have to admit, I'm not that well versed in the bible, but I don't think it says that anywhere.

I still think you should keep in mind when the bible was written, what a woman's role was then, the fact that women were nothing, just breeders and care takers, not even considered human beings. Jesus wasn't around when women got the vote. He wasn't there when we went to war alongside men. Women aren't expected to be barefoot and pregnant anymore, and allowing a man to rule over you is a huge step back from the progress we've made.

I really can't get my head around this. Why would anyone allow someone else to rule them?

Do you live in Iran? Is that it? If so, then I can understand a bit better, because you don't have a choice, but, if you live in the US or in Canada, or millions of others places, then not "submitting" to your husband isn't going to get you shot in the street and I don't know why you'd give up your power as a human being with rights.

This shouldn't be about the bible, this should be about being a human being.

I agree with NoHelp. Run! I would.

Alty is so right. There is no upside to voluntarily giving away the right to be a full citizen and human.

If you only obey some of the time, basically when you feel like it, you are not actually obedient, just complying when you feel like it. Obedience is ultimately the result of some form of coercion, whether economic, physical, or emotional.

PS. Keep seeing your childhood friend.

That last three posts here have been particularly good in addition to others.
If I tried to boss my wife around I would be in deep trouble.
I think that should e the case in most marriages if not all.
It makes for a bad marriage.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Here's what disturbed me about your post;



The words "let me" then "I never get to go out, especially with the friends he doesn't like"

That's controlling, demanding, domineering and in my life, not acceptable.

Another red flag that leads me to believe that you won't have a say in anything, that he does have control;



Authority? Are you getting married or going to jail? Doing what he says? Is her your husband or your father? As for parenting, yes, you do have a say, they're you kids too.

This just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

Like I said before, I respect your choices, your religion, I really do, but this just shocks the heck out of me.

Yeah the situation of him not letting me go out with my friends is a complaint not a compliant to what he tells me to do. He just says he'll leave me if I go out with my friend Stephanie. For some reason he thinks I'm incapable of not getting drunk. He thinks guys will take advantage of me at parties and whatnot. And then he won't even go to the party with me because he doesn't like being around people he doesn't know and then we just stay home arguing about it. In the past He also didn't want me to go snowboarding, which I used to do every winter, and spent tons of money for my own board to do. I haven't been for the past 3 years because he's worried about guys hitting on me since there won't be many other girls out there. But now he said he doesn't care anymore. I think it's just a trust issue and it can be fixed. It's already getting better.

Pluss I'm not just going to say " you, i'm going" . He can't go with me and he's worried about other guys hitting on me and I can understand that. There was a time when he worked at a restaurant when we first dated and all the girls flirted with him and he didn't even realize it. The girls just totally ignored me while they were all over him (not physically) and it pissed me off. He wanted to go back to that job but he didn't because I didn't want the girls all over him even though he didn't even see it that way. He just didn't go because I didn't want him to. It's a matter of respect not authority.

I know I have say over our future kids and he knows too. I wasn't writing that in a way that I was asking for permission to have say in parenting. I was writing it in a way that meant "is this what the bible says? that I am supposed to play the mother role yet won't have complete say in the parenting unless he allows it?" I was asking people who know more about the bible if that was the case. And their answer was NO. that isn't the case.

he is using God as an excuse to make himself God


I have one word

RUN

Ha ha. I understand what you're saying but I don't think he's like that. What did I say to make you think that about him? Just curious. He doesn't use bible verses in his defense. He's not like... "woman listen to be for the bible tells you to."

He was a little controlling but that's just a trouble spot in a relationship, which happens in any relationship and it's one I'm willing to work with. He's already letting go of a lot of his old habbits. I think he had those habbits just from jealousy out of other guys possibly liking me, which in the bible is a vice and he knows that.

He has the best sense of humor, loves kids, will be a great dad, he's a genius, he helps me out all the time, he's always there for me emotionally, we can't ever seem to leave eachothers side, he does so much for me, he stands up for me, he's caring, he's close with his family and mine, we get along great, we enjoy a lot of the same hobbies, he's extremely loyal, very romantic, cares about other people, loves animals (except cats), cute, creative, fun, outgoing...

He's too much of what I want to let one issue (that we are already working on) ruin it all and that's why I want to marry him. He's as close to perfect as I could ever get. (just saying nobody is perfect-not that I'm settling for him)

So what if guys flirt with you? It's only a problem if you flirt back.

He doesn't seem to trust you very much, and that's a very big thing to deal with when deciding to get married.

No trust, no relationship. That's the way it is, bible or not.

Alty is so right. There is no upside to voluntarily giving away the right to be a full citizen and human.

If you only obey some of the time, basically when you feel like it, you are not actually obedient, just complying when you feel like it. Obedience is ultimately the result of some form of coercion, whether economic, physical, or emotional.

Good way to put it. The situations aren't black and white like that though. It's not like he tells me what to do and I do it because he told me to. I'm not going to get into all that because my relationship with him wasn't the point. I wanted help understanding what the bible says. That's it. But yeah, I understand your concern but I doubt my relationship is what you think it is. There were just a few times we argued over certain things. It happens in any and all relationships.

So what if guys flirt with you? It's only a problem if you flirt back.

He doesn't seem to trust you very much, and that's a very big thing to deal with when deciding to get married.

No trust, no relationship. That's the way it is, bible or not.

I understand what you're saying but that's not how him and I are. I don't like girls flirting with him and he doesn't like guys flirting with me and neither of us would flirt back. We're both clingy to one another so obviously we don't mind one another being that way. Maybe it's less of a trust issues and more of a self esteem issue. We both trust each other. I don't go snowboarding with a bunch of guys around because I wouldn't want him going somewhere without me where a bunch of girls would be all over him. That's just what we do. I know most people don't care if their significant other has people hitting on them as long as they don't do it back and that makes a lot of sense to me and I wish I was that way too but for whatever reason I'm not. It would bother me as much as I would like to pretend that it doesn't. And it bothers him too.

He would never flirt with another girl but I get very jealous when one even talks him. Ironicaly, he just got out of class and told me there's this girl I hate that likes him and used to have his school schedule memorized just so she could run into him and she's in his class, sitting next to him, and they'll have group projects in the class. She also talked negatively about me to him a few years ago before I even got with him and she was trying to get with him (jealousy gets the best of everyone). I'm not going to say anything to him or make him not talk to her but I still have that "bblaaaaa that sucks so bad!!!" feeling for lack of better words. Luckily she gained more weight. I have an extreme hate for this girl and I hardly know her, it's just because she likes my fiancé

So if there was a guy who hated your fiancée and pursued you that aggressively and happened to end up in your class, would you sit next to him and then tell your fiancée all about it?

I do understand that you were looking for biblical backing one way or another and I'm sorry I (personally) don't know the Bible enough to be helpful. Some of us know a lot about marriage though.. . And some people here were just concerned for you. I think it sounded to a lot of us as though your behavior was being more limited than his was and would be more so in the future if things continued this way. Being together every minute feels great when you are first in love, but when he goes off to work and you are at home with little kids all day, you will eventually (desperately) need some grown up time with adults other than him. For that, you need family, friends, colleagues. So whatever happens, don't let yourself become isolated.

My mother used to say, "I just want to talk to someone more than 3 feet tall!"

asking,
That was very good.
Fred

My concern is that for whatever reason this question was posted - that indicates some level of uncertainty about the relationship to me.

Okay, I don't frequent the Christianity boards anymore, but I saw this and I have to say something.

Husband as ruler?

Are we still living in the 1700's? Did we not get the right to vote, bear arms, fight for our country, get equal pay for equal work and all that jazz?

Are there really people still out there that allow this?Well there is this: Promise Keepers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promise_Keepers)

They actively promote the man as being the head of the household. They are even more militant about that in canada:
Promise Keepers Canada (http://www.promisekeepers.ca/content/igniteequipunite)

I remember when I lived in Montreal they came to do a big rally there. Montreal women are quite independent regardless of religion. It did not go over well.

Alty,

The husband should be the final authority as he is suppose to be the head of the house. That is in a perfect world. That is how the Lord Jesus would Ideally want it. You can't have 2 heads or you are considered a freak or ODD. Unfortunately the Lord is talking to GODLY people not carnel Christians. If my husband is abusing me, or not considering my feelings, or selfish, or even directing his family to do Ungodly things.. obviously the Lord would have NONe of this.

Also remember that the husbands have been told to LOVE their wives as Christ loves the church. When a husband does THIS very thing.. it isn't hard to submit to him. And remember, the husband should always considered the woman's feelings and ideas. A man that truly loves his wife... compromises.

There ARE times when perhaps there is a really hard decision to make and if the man is truly the type of man that the Lord has outlined. Then I DO think it is appropriate to follow his lead. If it should be the wrong decision... the Lord will take care of the wife and kids for obeying. But I can't stress enough that the Lord isn't talking about men who claim to be Christians and live lukewarm at best.

I hate when Christian principles are misunderstood. The Lord Jesus is a loving God. He knows what he is doing. You show me a man that loves his wife like Christ loves the church ( or TRIES to) and I will show you a very very happy wife. Unfortunately, it is VERY few and far between.

Remember the Lord isn't saying ALL women are to submit to their husbands no matter what. No WAY!

NOTE: The Lord has made women in general to have MUCH influence over their husbands... you see it over and over in the Bible. Everything in balance really does work.

Your husband is your spiritual head. He's not your dictator but he makes the decisions, in collaboration with you. When you are in disagreement, show him from scripture why you disagree with him. And ask him to show you, likewise from scripture, why he feels the way he does. For example, why does he not like this friend of yours? Is it for a biblical reason? If so, then he's in the right and you should support him in that. But if not, then it's up to you to point out to him why he's wrong. Also keep in communication with your pastor. He's the one to counsel you on what's expected as far as your role of being the wife and submitting to your husband's leadership. Likewise your husband should counsel with the pastor as well so that he knows his role as spiritual leader of the family.

Do you know of a passage that would say drinking even in moderation is wrong? people always use the excuse of everyone in the bible drinking wine and i know it says only in moderation but i can't imagine giving a 17 year old some wine and saying "now, only drink a little bit" like they'll never want to have more than they should.Also, a 17-year-old is underage and it is therefore illegal for someone that age to drink. And the scriptures admonish us to obey the civil magistrates. So biblically, a 17-year-old should not be permitted to drink alcohol.

And lastly, please pay attention to classyT's response. That really sums it all up as to what it's all about.

I kind of think the OP understood most of this. My impression was that she was looking for specific Biblical references that would resolve her doubts.

Is there a list of Biblical passages that specifically address marital relations? I would think there would be.

Also, in response s_cianci's comment:

For example, why does he not like this friend of yours? Is it for a biblical reason? If so, then he's in the right and you should support him in that. But if not, then it's up to you to point out to him why he's wrong.

Doesn't this kind of reasoning motivate people to interpret the Bible in their own favor rather than dispassionately and rigorously? A woman would be tempted to say "it says this, not that. I'm right." And the husband would say, "No. I think it means that I'm right, not you."

Likewise, if something's not specifically proscribed in the Bible, does that necessarily make it right?

Also, in response s_cianci's comment:

Quote:
For example, why does he not like this friend of yours? Is it for a biblical reason? If so, then he's in the right and you should support him in that. But if not, then it's up to you to point out to him why he's wrong.

Doesn't this kind of reasoning motivate people to interpret the Bible in their own favor rather than dispassionately and rigorously? A woman would be tempted to say "it says this, not that. I'm right." And the husband would say, "No. I think it means that I'm right, not you."

Likewise, if something's not specifically proscribed in the Bible, does that necessarily make it right?That's where talking to a pastor or elder comes into play. If a couple is in disagreement as to the scriptural interpretation of the situation in question, then clarify it with someone more knowledgeable than yourselves. And there's really no such thing as something "not specifically proscribed in the Bible." The answer to literally any question is there. Again, it may require the assistance of a pastor or elder to find it but it's there all the same.

I found Derek Prince's book '' Husbands and fathers '' really helpful.

I am somewhat confused why Leviticus which explains which animals are clean and which are unclean is part of this post on a Christian board.

Deuteronomy is far more comprehensive and explains Jewish beliefs in great detail.

classyT,
That is a wonderful answer to this OP.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

And there's really no such thing as something "not specifically proscribed in the Bible." The answer to literally any question is there.

I meant forbidden. For example, slavery is not forbidden by the Bible. Poor ergonomics are not specifically forbidden, but that doesn't mean that stooping over a laptop for 8 hours is a good thing! :)

I meant forbidden. For example, slavery is not forbidden by the Bible. Poor ergonomics are not specifically forbidden, but that doesn't mean that stooping over a laptop for 8 hours is a good thing! :)



Out of greenies but I am giving you 10 out of 10 - very funny.

Out of greenies but I am giving you 10 out of 10 - very funny.
Judy, please, the men are talking here. How about you head back into the kitchen and me a sandwich, OK honey?

The husband should be the final authority as he is suppose to be the head of the house. That is in a perfect world. That is how the Lord Jesus would Ideally want it.

The final authority? Still really having a problem with this. This whole thing leaves a very bad taste in my mouth and is another point in favor of not being a Christian. No one has authority over me, absolutely no one!


Also remember that the husbands have been told to LOVE their wives as Christ loves the church. When a husband does THIS very thing.. it isn't hard to submit to him. And remember, the husband should always considered the woman's feelings and ideas. A man that truly loves his wife... compromises.

Again, Ahhhhhhh! Submit? Not going to happen, not in my life, not in my marriage, and I've been married for 14 years, so obviously we're doing something right. My husband wouldn't even dare to tell me what to do, he knows he'd be 6 feet under in the yard quicker then he could take it back. I don't care if he's sweet as pie about it, loving and nice, there will be no submission in this household.


There ARE times when perhaps there is a really hard decision to make and if the man is truly the type of man that the Lord has outlined. Then I DO think it is appropriate to follow his lead. If it should be the wrong decision... the Lord will take care of the wife and kids for obeying.

I am now banging my head on the desk. Every decision that comes our way is made together. If we don't agree, we compromise. I don't follow, I don't obey, that's what my dogs do.


NOTE: The Lord has made women in general to have MUCH influence over their husbands... you see it over and over in the Bible. Everything in balance really does work.

When you're equal, you don't need to influence, you just discuss.

Again, it's the OP's choice, her religion, I'm just having a hard time getting my head around this. I can't believe that people still live like this. I thought we had progressed, that women had made giant leaps forward.

I wish the OP all the luck in the world, I hope she's not as strong willed as I am, otherwise, the requirements to be a good Christian wife are going to be the end of her.

Good luck.

Alty,

OK, But I wanted to make sure you understood what the Bible actual means when the wives are asked to submit to their husbands. Like I said, when a huband loves his wife like Christ loves the church... it really does work. BUT I want to make clear it is WHEN. It isn't about being "OVER or ABOVE" her. A man who loves his wife doesn't think like that.. he considers her in all matters as she should him. The Lord doesn't want anyone to be the lesser in the marriage. He simply put a GODLY Christian man who follows Jesus in the home as the head. The bible also says that the wife and husband are to submit to each other as well. All I am pointing out is that is shouldn't be taken out of context or misunderstood. It is what it is in the Bible but it ain't what it ain't either. And I do believe it works in a Christian home where BOTH are submitted to one another, love one another, trust one another and most importantly believe that Jesus knows what he is doing.

As far as women having influence over men... that is just a FACT of life. Take a look at history.. Christian and non Christians.

I am a strong willed woman myself and there is nothing in the world wrong with that. It is part of my personality. I trust the Lord Jesus and his word ANYWAY. :)

Judy, please, the men are talking here. How about you head back into the kitchen and me a sandwich, ok honey?

IF you THINK this is what the Apsotle Paul meant when he wrote about submission under the inspiration of the HOLY Spirit then you are IGNORANT at best. It is belittling NOT ONLY to women.. but to ME as a Christian woman. That passage about wives submitting wasn't written to YOU or FOR you. It was written to the Christian woman. Soooooooo... How's about you run along and go show your brillance elsewhere... ok stud muffin?

ClassyT, I respect your belief, I just don't follow your belief.

To me the bible is still just an interesting story, but I don't want to start that conversation again. ;)

Like I said before, women weren't even considered human beings then, they had no rights, and the bible was written with that in mind, nes pas?

Surely even God would realize that the rules he set out back then don't work in today's world. You see, women are human beings now, we're allowed to wear shoes, walk alongside a man, vote, work for equal pay, fight in wars and everything. Does God really expect those women, ones that fight and die alongside men, to go home and submit to their husbands?

I just don't understand why people would use a very old book to determine how to live their lives in 2009! Times have changed, surely even God can accept that.

IF you THINK this is what the Apsotle Paul meant when he wrote about submission under the inspiration of the HOLY Spirit then you are IGNORANT at best. It is belittling NOT ONLY to women..but to ME as a Christian woman. That passage about wives submitting wasn't written to YOU or FOR you. It was written to the Christian woman. soooooooo.... Hows bout you run along and go show your brillance elsewhere ....ok stud muffin?

Classy, it was a joke.

Classy, it was a joke.No sense of humour at all. :( At least she recognizes my stud-muffinness.

No sense of humour at all. :( At least she recognizes my stud-muffinness.

NK...

LOL well I AM a mere female after all.

Apparently I've been watching too much Mad Men. :)

There are different words in original NT text for "obey" and "submit"

The one used concerning marriage is "submit" (hypotasso). It really means "recognizing the authority".

Maybe that doesn't help much because our world has so confused what marriage is all about. For a long time the world tried to give the husband rights which God did not give... and for some time now the world has tried to make the roles of man and women the same.

To understand the vow, people need to find again what the different roles are.

I would have you note that in that same section, just before the "wives submit", it says:

Eph 5:21-22

"21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit to your husbands ........"
NIV

An example of what "submit" means can be found in St. Peter's declaration of disobedience to the church rulers:

Ac 4:14-20
15 So they ordered them to withdraw from the Sanhedrin and then conferred together. 16 "What are we going to do with these men?" they asked. "Everybody living in Jerusalem knows they have done an outstanding miracle, and we cannot deny it. 17 But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn these men to speak no longer to anyone in this name."

18 Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. 20 For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard."
NIV

Peter RECOGNIZED THE AUTHORITY of the leaders... but could not obey them in this matter.

Sub·mit (sb-mt)
v. sub·mit·ted, sub·mit·ting, sub·mits
v.tr.
1. To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.
2. To subject to a condition or process.
3. To commit (something) to the consideration or judgment of another. See Synonyms at propose.
4. To offer as a proposition or contention: I submit that the terms are entirely unreasonable.
v.intr.
1. To give in to the authority, power, or desires of another. See Synonyms at yield.
2. To allow oneself to be subjected to something.

Nope, not okay with it. :(

Altenweg,
You said, "No one has authority over me, absolutely no one!"
I very much disagree.
Whether you like it or not law, government, and police have authority over you whether you like it or not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Altenweg,
You said, "No one has authority over me, absolutely no one!"
I very much disagree.
Whether you like it or not law, government, and police have authority over you whether you like it or not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

True Fred, but I don't choose to let them, that's just the way it is.

Marriage is a choice. Allowing someone to have authority over you is very different from accepting the authority we all have to adhere to.

I think this verse says it all

28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

To me it shows that submit does not mean to rule over but for each other to yield to EACH other.
If the husband really loves his wife there would be no ruling over.

This whole question of what "submit" means is interesting to me. I submit to the law that says I should stop at stop signs in part because it's safer, in part because I don't want to get a ticket. But I also sometimes slow down and gently roll through (a "California stop") because I'm in hurry and also because I learned in traffic school that most cops won't ticket you as long as you show "respect for the law" and slow down significantly. So I submit to the law--just.

I also pay my taxes and do not try to cheat. I submit again. On its side, the government commits to enforcing the law fairly and providing services such as paved streets and police protection in exchange for my submission to the law. There is a kind of contract there.

I would submit to a cop in most situations because that person is doing his job, enforcing a law I mostly have already committed to submitting to. Also, s/he has the gun and the benefit of the doubt in a court of law. But I would not submit if I was asked to do something that was wrong, such as hurt another person or hurt myself. I would probably resist. The cop might then force me to submit but that's force, not willing submission, which is what we are talking about within marriage.

In the willing submission sense, I think married men and women agree to submit to one another's needs and demands. We submit to the idea that we will collaborate, cooperate, and compromise. But if a man asks me to submit unilaterally, without himself making a similar commitment, I would not willingly do that.

It strikes me that some people here are saying that a good man does in fact commit to some sort of contract--with his wife and with God--in exchange for her submission. If it's understood that way, it makes a kind of sense to me, although I still would not endorse it because it is so easily misunderstood.

I think a great many men see wifely obedience as something they are entitled to without any commitment to anything in particular on the man's side and, further, that obedience is something they can demand and enforce with physical abuse. I react very strongly against that, as I see it as slavery.

asking,
I do understand what you have posted.
I agree.
Fred

I think a great many men see wifely obedience as something they are entitled to without any commitment to anything

You nailed it! And what I so much want to point out is simply this... it is NOT how the Lord intended it to be. It is NOT what the word of God even SAYS!

classyT,
You are right about that.
Fred