Our 1500 sq. foot home in southern Ontario was 20 years old when we bought. Right off the bat we put in a whole house L2B air cleaner. A few years later we replaced our old gas furnace with a high efficiency furnace, and just this week replaced the original A/C with an Amana ASX16 system rated at 2 tons. About 3 hours into the install the senior tech started bouncing in and out the door with a cell phone glued to his ear, this lasted about an hour. An hour or so later everything was up and running.

Currently daytime temperatures are running between 28 and 32 degrees Celsius, dropping to 18 - 20 overnight. After about 9:30 in the morning the indoor temperature starts rising till it hits 23 degrees and it will not get lower until midnight. The company sent over some techs who switched the unit into a permanent high setting and they told us a new thermostat and wire were on the way. Same temperature cycle in the meantime.

All the units were sold and installed by a sub-contractor under the same multi-national company so as to forestall one company blaming the work of another. They already tried to explain an earlier A/C problem as pressure drop across the L2B and only backed off after I explained that would indicate faulty design on their part.

I know nothing about HVAC and I am wondering what questions I should be asking other that those that stem from HVAC100's statement


When the company does lousy braze jobs, does not use nitrogen gas while brazing, does not vac the system correctly and purge at least one time and then use a digital vac gauge for the final micron reading you are already heading for trouble down the road.

Any suggestions would be welcome. An exceptable range for the micron reading would be especially appreciated.

Thanks in advance;

Dave

My first question is,, did they/someone do a manual J sizing calculation?

Unless you have a superdooper tight and well insulated home with great tripple insulated doors and windows,, I`m wondering is the 2 ton ac big enough for a 1500 sq. ft house

The sales person had the specs of our old system, asked us some questions about the size of the house and then did manual calculations, using tables from a binder. The old R22 unit was the same size and worked fine, we are in southeastern Ontario so many believe A/C is only necessary from June through September; we run ours from mid May through to October most years.

I know nothing about HVAC and I am wondering what questions I should be asking other that those that stem from HVAC100's statement

First give them some time to figure it all out. The unit was just replaced this week. It would be impossible for me to teach you the HVAC biz by posting on this board and to ask questions you need specific exacting problems to start with. Now with that being said lets start at the beginning.

Did they do a manual J and manual D for your home or did they just guess at the size of unit needed? This is a very important question since many structural items have to be considered in the size selection and the duct work needs to be sized properly for correct air flow.

If they turned the blower up to high it would indicate to me that there is a air flow problem somewhere in the system and it should not be the air cleaner unless the original installer of the air cleaner choked the system duct down for some reason.

I cannot see how a new thermostat and wires are going to cure an air flow problem. The thermostat just tells the unit when to turn off and on in most cases.

If you can take some pictures of the inside unit etc and post them here something may be able to be seen. Naturally it is nice to see a tape measure placed next to the duct so a size can be figured etc.

First give them some time to figure it all out. The unit was just replaced this week. It would be impossible for me to teach you the HVAC biz by posting on this board and to ask questions you need specific exacting problems to start with. Now with that being said lets start at the beginning.

That's where we are currently, I'm also trying to learn what I need to know in order to ask relevant questions.



Did they do a manual J and manual D for your home or did they just guess at the size of unit needed?

I don't know what a manual J or a manual D is; I assumed the salesperson knew what they were doing. The lady we usually dealt with retired; when we replaced the furnace she explained why the unit I was interested in was wrong for our house and sold us one better suited to our needs at half the price. Needless to say she amassed a huge amount of trust due to that, which we also associated with the company.



If they turned the blower up to high it would indicate to me that there is a air flow problem somewhere in the system and it should not be the air cleaner unless the original installer of the air cleaner choked the system duct down for some reason.

During annual maintenance and on the first service call following that, the techs tried to blame it on a pressure drop; but as explained previously, all the equipment came from the same company and the L2B filter was the first piece of equipment installed. Furnace blower and everything else should have been sized with those filters factored in.

Sorry, about the lack of tape measure, I hope you can figure scale from pictures. In the bottom picture the white box at the top left is the UV lamp control for the lamps over the condenser unit in the plenum. As you can see the condenser unit fits in a section of ducting that is the same size as that coming out of the furnace, nothing narrows down until it splits into legs for various parts of the house.

Air comes down through L2B (large white unit next to water heater in the 1st picture) into filter unit on floor between L2B and furnace and then through ductwork.

In the picture on the upper right side it looks like that is where your inside coil is. That is the evaporator coil. The condenser is outside.

Did they replace the inside evaporator coil? It looks like the old one is there with the old lines. In other words did they just replace the outside unit? Answer this question please.

There was a new evaporator coil installed on Wednesday.

Ductwork on top of furnace is 17.5" wide and tapers down to a touch under 16.25" wide for the duct work that the evaporator coil is inside.

I am still trying to get a clear picture of your setup. That coil just does not look correct. I hate to bother you but take some more pictures.

The duct tape around the holes for the copper lines looks old.

The drain line is not 3/4 PVC pipe but some kind of old vinyl tube.

The sheetmetal looks older in the upper right side picture than it does in the upper left picture.

What is that cream colored box sitting above the coil?

The reason I ask is because (and I hate to say this but that does not look like a professional install) at least from where I come from.

Take some more pictures so I can see more of this. A complete front shot would be good also. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this.

Post or scan and post exactly what the bill says from the company. (What was the exact work done) AND if the coil was replaced they should have put the coil model number on the bill.

Did they replace the copper line set that connects the inside to the outside section?

The duct tape around the holes for the copper lines looks old.

The drain line is not 3/4 PVC pipe but some kind of old vinyl tube.

The sheetmetal looks older in the upper right side picture than it does in the upper left picture.

What is that cream colored box sitting above the coil?

Duct tape is actually new, condensation is taking the shine off.

It is a flexible vinyl drain tube that snakes to a floor drain; same line as from old set-up.

Sheet metal is a melange of what the techs brought in with them.

Cream colored box is L2B UV lamp panel (see new picture)

The front of the units have to be snapped off axis as there is a stair case that prevents a full frontal shot.

The copper line in the I/O set from the outside unit to the evaporator is new; also the putty or sealant around the connections is fresh.

This is a shot of the outside unit; is all that ice normal?

That is a Aspen Coil and not a Goodman coil. By the way, the +TDR at the end of that number is not part of the Aspen number. It stands for "plus Time Delay Relay", referring to a timer that makes the blower operate for a short time after the outdoor unit shuts off. A 90 second time delay on the blower adds about .4 SEER to the rating, if there was a rating with that coil.

The warranty from the factory is 10 years if it is a complete Goodman system but not with a Aspen coil??

Amana Air Conditioners, (A/C), Packaged Heat Pumps and Central Air Conditioning (AC) Units for Home Healing and Cooling Systems. Residential and Commercial Heating and Cooling Equipment by Amana Heating and Air Conditioning available in 14 SEER and 1 (http://www.amana-hac.com/Home/Products/AirConditioningSystems/16SEERASX16/tabid/277/Default.aspx)


Lifetime on compressor

http://www.amana-hac.com/Portals/1/pdf/PWAACHPLA.pdf

Getting late.

BTW the outside unit requires a 3/4 OD copper line on the suction side. NOTE the suction line is insulated with 1/2 ID x 3/8 black flex insulation. I wonder how they got the insulation to fit the copper line set ? 1/2 ID = 5/8 OD so the insulation is not large enough for 3/4 OD tube.

So

The coil is not Goodman
We do not know if it has a expansion valve as required
We do not know if the Aspen coil is rated for usage with the Goodman outside unit.

Actually this looks like a amateur junk job in my opinion.

No the ice is not normal. You need to call a qualified contractor to get this mess fixed.

Nope. Not normal. Your either low on freon or there is a lack of air flow.

A quick performance test is to measure the temperature difference across the inside coil. Should be 15-20 deg F.

Or it could be the wrong coil/or expansion device/piston or to small/kinked suction line.
IE if they used the R22 expansion piston instead of the R-410A piston etc.


Got to get going the wife had me busy today and Sunday being another busy day. Dang never get any free time.

You need to call a qualified contractor to get this mess fixed.

I thought Direct Energy were qualified; obviously I was wrong.

All I can do here is take educated guess work and post it. Since we are not there it is almost impossible to give a perfect answer in this case. I hope they get it working for you soon.

It's a strange situation; thank-you for helping. Thanks to your involvement I now know some of the right questions to ask them. I had a feeling it was a bad install when one of the techs had a cell phone glued to his ear for an hour or so.

I'm not sure if it's that people are on vacation and I got the B team for installation or if there is some faulty equipment. I do know the sales guy had some difficulty matching the coil, and as you have pointed out they seem to have gone outside of Goodman Mfg. to source it.

I remember in college that the shop supervisor told me that I was an invaluable piece of test gear, in that I invariably reached for the equipment that was on the fritz; computers, meters, gauges, didn't matter, I just gravitated towards it. By the same token, once I calibrated something it was solid. I'm sure that at a remove it's interesting to watch; but up close and personal I can almost guarantee that if it has a cord attached, 3 of 5 new items will need to be returned.

I understand that. I would not let them off the hook until it is working 100%.

Two crews showed up first thing this morning. Cleaned and recharged the system, put in a thermostat that will accommodate two stage units and put new filters in the L2B. Hot and humid today and the system has kept the house nice and cool; vent temperatures are 50 degrees or lower.

Thank you HVAC1000 for your patience and input. As you suggested, the contractor was willing and able to resolve the issues.

Glad they got it going.

On a related note; we've been having trouble with a flow-through humidifier connected to our furnace. RH varies from single digits through to about 27 % after meal preparation. The house is well insulated and the windows are double pane low E, installed 4 years ago. Attic insulation was boosted to R50 this past summer.

After more unsatisfactory service from the company that did the installation of all the HVAC related equipment, we called a second company for an assessment. They felt that as the humidifier appeared to be working the problem was with airflow.

The variable speed fan was set at it's highest speed for when there is a greater than 2 degree variance between setpoint and process variable, and a more moderate setting for continuous air movement through the L2B air purifier. All the filters were clean and did not need replacement. They feel that system sizing may be an issue.

The tech peeled back the insulation on the suction line and the following pictures show that the line from the outside unit is well under the specified 3/4 inch OD. This line comes in and then joins to a larger diameter pipe which in turn is joined to a still larger line at the duct work.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac338/stagetek/ASX16specifications.jpg

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac338/stagetek/2ndexpansionjoint.jpg

Size of line prior to 2nd expansion joint.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac338/stagetek/lineafter1stexpansionjoint.jpg

Second expansion joint.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac338/stagetek/vernier.jpg

Size of suction line coming in from outside unit.

Looks like 5/8 OD copper line to me. Could it be possible they used the old line set from your older unit over again on your new install? This does happen since the cost of copper is so high. The manufactures directions state what is the minimum size suction line that can be used for so many feet of travel. In many cases you actually need a line sized larger than the fitting on the coil and in some cases you can get by with a smaller size SO just looking at the size means nothing without checking the install manual for that exact unit. Measure the distance, then refer to the manual for the exact size that should have been installed.

I would agree. There is sometimes elevation involved with the charts too. If there was a change from R22 ro R410 and they didn't properly flush the line, this can cause issues too.

Measuring static pressure would confirm if it's an airflow issue or not. Static pressure can also be used to determine if a filter element is dirty.

What model thermostat was used. Is the AC multiple stage? Is the heating multiple stage?

Was a manual J done for the house. This sizes the AC and cooling loads.

Was a manual D done for the house. This sizes the ductwork.

Do you notice any icing on the coils anywhere?

The humidity problem perplexes me, You failed to mention if this is a heating season or cooling season problem. Typically humidifiers are used in the heating season only. AC removes lots of humidity.

I'd like to ask where is the humidity measured and where in the system is it controlled from? Does the thermostat try to do some humidity control too? They can try to do it indirectly by varying the temperature and the cycle rate with a capable stat.

It's heating season here; due to the problems with the humidifier we finally brought in a second company. During the inspection the insulation was cut in order to measure the line.

Both heating and cooling are multi stage. Humidifer is mounted on the duct work going into the L2B unit, which feeds into the furnace. Specs are from the manufacturer's site.

That's what's odd. Take this example: http://www.skuttle.com/pdfs/airclean_owners_install.pdf

Sensing should be in the return air stream. Injection should be after the air cleaner. Humidistat should be after the humidifier.

In some cases, there should be a large distance. This mfr specifies 8 feet.

So, it's like humidistat, 8 feet, air cleaner, input air to furnace.

You have to get things in the right order. The separation distance enhances the effectiveness of the air cleaner and improves humidity control.

That's considerably smaller than my L2B unit:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/attachments/heating-air-conditioning/23451d1250357575-c-installation-went-south-l2b-furnace.jpg

Their website (http://www.l2binc.com/products/1/residential) has an updated model; as the picture above shows, the HEPA and charcoal filters are in a housing between the furnace and main L2B unit in our system.

Looks like that baby will cut down on the air flow for sure.

I'm having a hard time interpreting the graphs. It seems as though they pulled the wool over ones eyes a bit by saying that the speeds have to be moved up a notch whatever this means. Usually it's not that simple unless the unit is a Carrier or the air handler motor was replaced with an Evergreen technology motor.

This just gives you an idea that there is some science involved. The Air Side of Air Conditioning - Checking Velocity - Static Pressures (http://www.udarrell.com/external_static_pressure_readings.html#Excellent_D iagrams)

Measuring Static pressure and CFM is a great way to determine overall health of the system. If the air filer gets stopped up, the static pressure increases. If the CFM/ton of AC isn't about 400, then there are other issues.

Carrier's Infinity systems and thermostats allow one to check the CFM and static pressure direct from the tstat using an installer menu. The furnace error history is displayed and their Patented filter sense technology runs the system at 1:00 PM everyday at high speed and effectively looks at the change in static pressure since the last filter change. In some systems the motor CFM is actively controlled indirectly through the motor interface.

Here are a bunch of Amana's manuals: Heat and AC (HVAC) Technical Documents - Kentucky | www.lexpromechanical.com | Pdf, Amana, Distinctions, Spec, Pdfamana (http://www.lexpromechanical.com/component/content/article/52.html)