Hi,

I installed a Fluidmaster 404LG complete repair kit, last Thursday (8/6/09) and my problem is that I need to double flush the toilet for it to completely empty.

I think the problem is that the flapper is not staying open long enough.

I understand I have to adjust the chain and I will try that, but how tight do I make the chain? How much slack should I give?

Any help would be great!

Thanks.

You want the chain to be just about 1" longer than distance between the arm and the flapper. When you flush there should be some slack but moving the handle raises the flapper to nearly full verticle where it stays and flaots back down. If the problem is not the chain Fluidmaster also makes a flapper that is adjustable, stays open longer if needed, think it's a 505

Thank you. I will check the chain length and let you know if it is more or less than your suggestion of 1 inch.

The flapper does go completely straight up when I flush, it just tends to stay up before the water in the toilet completely empties.

According to the fluidmaster site, they suggest adjusting the flapper valve flush number to a higher number (from 4 to 6,7,8 or 9). Does that make sense?


I went to the fluidmaster web site. Would the sure fit adjust a flush flapper (with foam float), #5051 help?

Let's adjust the tank parts first. Check the tank water level, it should be at the mark in the tank or 3/8 to 1/2" below the top of the over flow tube. Now look at the flapper, If it has wavy edges on the flat surface, replace it. The linkage between the flapper and the flush lever should have 1/4" play when the tank is filled. Also, check the small tube coming out of the top of the ballcock and make sure it's connect to and draining into the white overflow tube. If the leak is at the base of the tank there are two brass bolts on both sides of the flapper, if the tank is loose, leaking or wobbly, snug up the bolts. If there is dampness at the base of the bowl, pop off the china caps and snug down the closet bolts. I would check all this out before paying 50$ for a service call and 50$ a hour thereafter. More questions? I'm as close as a click. TOM

Would a flapper with a foam float help keep the flapper open long enough for the toilet bowl water to completely flush?

I will check the water level and let you know about that.

There are no leaks since I installed the new parts. That I am sure of.

Any one of these should work for you. (see images) You do realize that you have to take a pair of scissors and cut the ring off before mounting it on the hooks don't you? Failure to do so will result in the action you're complaining about. Regards, Tom

What ring am I cutting off?

what ring am i cutting off?

This ring!

I don't have that ring. I am using the fluidmaster 404lg. The flapper came attached to the white tube that needs to be cut down.


Now I am leaking from the two bolts in the tank.

I turned off the water supply and will attempt to retighten the bolts.

On top of that, I've been playing with the water fill valve because the tank hasnt' been filling up after a flush and now that's off.

I'm going crazy!

Is there anyway to attach a picture of my toilet tank from a file on my computer?

I only see a link from a url?

I hate to keep posting, but I've been trying to adjust the links in the chain and now matter how low I go, the flapper refuses to stay open.

The water fills up in the tank to about a 1/2" away from the water line mark.

Occaisonally the fill valve does not fill the tank all the way. I have to release the safety device on the fill valve for the water to keep running.

Is that part of the problem?

I really don't want to admit defeat and call a plumber.

is there anyway to attach a picture of my toilet tank from a file on my computer?

i only see a link from a url?

To Send Attachments
Make your post and scroll down to Manage Attachments click on that and then click Browse This will allow you to get into your computer and retrieve your picture and upload it to The Plumbing Page.
I'll be looking for it. Tom

OK. I won't be able to post until after 9 this evening as I am working.

I usually work on the site in the daytime and kick back at night but you'll be the first thing I check in the morning. See you! Tom

I also await the pics, this will defiantely help us with your problem. Until then, can you desribe the flapper valve? Im guessing it one of those new water conserving flappers, if so, throw it away and go buy a universal corky flapper valve. This style of flapper will stay up until almost all of the water is drained from the tank. Good luck and please let us know what you find. Lee.

thanks for the patience. I installed a fluidmaster 404 LG. the flapper valve that came with it is what I used.

see the link below for the product I used (not quite the same thing, but very similar).

http://www.fluidmaster.com/index.asp?bhcp=1

any chance the water in the tank is not filled enough to flush out the toilet?

I am having a problem with my fill valve not allowing enough water into the tank on some of the test runs I've been trying while moving the chain.

I have to release the safety valve to allow the float cup to move up.

OK here is the picture as promised. Not sure it will help. Hope it does.

Do you have the chain off for some reason, it is not in place.

Actually, it is on. I just didn't take a very good picture.

That black chain is part of the safety feature which sometimes prevents the flow valve from filling the tank up. Drives me nuts.

Send us another picture please. This time stand over the tank and shoot directly down. Thanks, Tom

OK. Another picture. From straight on top.

I just saw you new picture and have not seen this set up. The brass chain is what lifts the flapper and you have way too much slack in it. The chain should relinked so there is a samll amount of slack only.

I love fluidmaster products, but I have to say, this is not one of their better designs. First thing I would do, is get rid of the extra link that goes to fill valve. Then tighten link between flush handle and flapper(as Bob suggested), then replace flapper with universal korky flapper. I also notice in your pic that the water level is way below the overflow tube. Adjust the water level up to roughly 1/2 inch below top of overflow. Once you have done this, just manually pull the flapper up and hold it up and see how your toilet flushes then.. Let us know. Lee.

Mygirlsdad, do you mean the black chain?

According to the instructions, that is for the safety feature to prevent any leakage problems.

I will tighten up the link to the flapper and post a new picture.

I will see if I can adjust the water. I thought it was only 1/2 inch below top of overflow.

I will do all those things and post new pictures later.

Thanks for all your help.


How do I allow more water into the tank? I can't seem to figure that out.

The water fill valve won't turn to allow more in.

I adjusted the chain and will post picture.

Should I cut the overflow valve down more?

I don't know guys! If were my call I'd junk his present set up and install a regular tank installation, see image). No wonder he has a problem!! Regaqrds, Tom

Unfortunately, Lowe's and home depot only sell fluidmaster complete sets. Korky might have products, but I didn't see a complete set.

How do I increase the amount of water in the tank?


OK. I shortened the flapper chain.

I removed the black chain that acted as a safety feature.

For the record, the water in the tank is right at the water line in the tank.

I'm not sure this is helping.

This latest picture will show all of the things I corrected.

Any suggestions?

That flapper is an adjustable one, where do you have it set? This looks like it should, how well does it flush?

Im with Tom on this one. It also looks to me like the water level is two low. I can see the stains of the old water level, but it looks like the new water level is way below that. How much shorter is the new overflow tube than the old one? And don't cut down the new overflow tube, as this will just compound your problem. How old is the toilet? If its older than 1992, then it not a water conserving toilet, and water conserving parts will not work with this toilet. I really think Tom has the best solution. One other thought... standard toilets are actaully quite cheap. You can get them for around 80 to 100 bucks.

Im not familiar with the adustable flappers, but I do know that the water level has to be up there pretty high in old 3 gallon per flush toilets.

Since you have a fluidmaster fill valve, you should have a set of instructions for adjusting water level. You see the philips style screw adjustment on the fill valve float arm? Turn it clockwise to raise water level, but you can only adjust it so much, if you can't get enough adjustment out of it, then you will have to shut water off to toilet, then pull up on the ring under the float, then pull the whole assembly up(you will feel it go click by click). Take it up one click at a time, then push holding ring back down until it snaps back in place, turn water on and make fine adustments with philips head adjuster. If you are not interested in gettinga new toilet, then you will need to raise the water level, either adjust or replace the flapper valve with a universal flapper(perferably one with out the foam float) and hope it works. Good luck and please keep us posted.

Let's get that tank level up where I belongs.
There are two clips that secure the float can to the wire.
These are the adjustments that control how high the water raises in the tank before it shuts off. Squeezing the clips and lowering the float can will drop the water level in the tank. The lower you set the can the lower the level in your tank. By the same token raising the float can will also raise the tank level.
Now, go to a -plumbing or hardware store a pick up a reguar flapper and toss that piece of crap in your tank out.
Here's how to adjust your new flapper.
With the flapper seated the linkage wants to have 1/4" of play. Too much play and the flapper doesn't get pulled back enough giving you a short flush. Too tight and it lets water seep past the flapper. I adjust the chain by the link and if it needs fine tuning, I bend the flush lever rod a bit until I have the desired play in the linkage. One more thing about a flapper. you will see where the old flapper hooks onto the base of the white overflow tube. On a older type with no hooks the flapper has a ring that slips down over the overflow tube to the seat. If your tank has hooks, take a sharp knife or scissors and cut the ring off on the marks provided and hook the flapper on the hooks. Leaving the ring on will interfere with the flush. The water level in your tank should be 3/8 to 1/2" below the top of the overflow tube when the tank's filled. Hope this helps and thank you for rating my reply. Tom

To answer some of your questions, I have the adjustable flapper set at 9, for a max flush.

I will try to adjust the fill valve. The water is right at the water line as marked by the tank.

I have no idea how old the toilet is. Probably older than 1992.

Where can I get a new set up similar to the one Tom posted a picture of?

"There are two clips that secure the float can to the wire.
These are the adjustments that control how high the water raises in the tank before it shuts off. Squeezing the clips and lowering the float can will drop the water level in the tank. The lower you set the can the lower the level in your tank. By the same token raising the float can will also raise the tank level. "

I don't have two clips that adjust the float. I have an arm that uses a philips head screwdriver to raise or lower it.

Tom -the flapper came attached to the overflow tube. There was no additional ring for me to cut off.

I will try all of your suggestions and post with results.

Thanks.

I was online reading about the korky products.

Should I scrap the fluidmaster products that I installed and just go with a whole new korky system?

You already own a system nearly identical to the one Tom posted. I think the hardware is fine, installed this month, but not properly adjusted.

i was online reading about the korky products.

should i scrap the fluidmaster products that i installed and just go with a whole new korky system?
I don't agree with Bob that your system is the same as the one I put up.(see image).
I looked at Korkys System video. Haven't you had enough of these "Gee Whizz" systems? Ya want to put in another one?
If this were in my home I'd take the tank off and strip it. I would then install a regular float type ballcock and a standard flushvalve and flapper, (see images) You get it installed and l'll walk you through adjusting and fine tuning it. Let me get you out of this "Toilet Twilight Zone" that you got yourself into. Good luck, tom

I may have misunderstood but I think you and Tom both posted Fluidmaster fill valves. The floats may in fact be different. I think you said that you had an adjustable Fluidmaster flapper and I have had very little trouble with them. I ask a few posts ago how it flushed now with the proper water level, did you answer?

Nine posts ago I recommended replacing his tank parts and I haven't changed my mind. I tend to go with works the best. But if you think you can get him back in business more power to you. Regards, Tom

Your fluidmaster fill valve is just fine, good product. The overflow assembly is also just fine, other than the flapper itself. The only korky product I would use here would be the flapper(but korky is just a brand of flappers we use, it about the same as any universal flapper). IF water level is as high as it used to be, the only thing that is causing the problem is the flapper not staying up long enough to give a good flush.(or is it flushing good? As Bob already asked.). And ill ask again,, if you hold the flapper up by hand, how does the toilet flush? If not very good(and water level is high enough) then you may have other issues with the toilet. Plugged rim holes, or jet hole will cause a toilet to not flush properly. Try taking a five gallon bucket of water and dumping it into the bowl(not tank) of the toilet and see if it causes the toilet to flush properly.(only dump about half of the five gallon bucket at a time). Also, have you given any consideration to a shiny new toilet??

If you notice in the picture, you can see the old water line, which was above the water line as indicated by the tank.

I have not been able to get the water to get that high again. I am still playing with the fill valve in hopes of increasing the water to the old height. Once I do that, I might be able to get it to flush correctly.

When I hold the flapper open, the toilet completely flushes, which is a product of all of the water leaving the tank (I think).

I don't mind going to the "old school" parts (which is what I had in the tank). If I can't adjust the water fill valve and adjust the water level in the tank, I will go old school and gladly have tom walk me through it.

I plan on working on it today. I will keep you all posted.

Thanks for your help and patience.

There is another ajustment on the fill valve other than the philips screw adjustment. If you look below the black float, on the rod that comes from the bottom of the tank, you will see a plastic ring. If you turn the water off to the toilet and pull up on this ring, then you can pull up on the whole assembly, this will raise the whole assembly float and all, take it up a couple of clicks then push the ring back down. After this, turn water back on to toilet and make fine adjustments with the screw adjuster. With water off and ring pulled up, you can actually pull the whole top assembly off if you want to. Please let me know if you find what I'm talking about, I promise you it's there, you just have to find it and pull on it. Lee.

Yes! Success. I was able to raise fhe fill valve, which helped to raise the water level to the stained level in the tank.

That helped force enough water down and kept the flapper open for a good flush.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this will work and it wasn't my imagination.

Thanks to all who posted for your suggestions and patience.

At last! Congratulations! Let's hope it remains. Ya hung in there until you got it working. Good job! Tom

Glad to hear problem is solved, Good job. Lee.