Im a christian and I found that actually Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus Christ at all. Jesus Christ's birth is not mention in the bible not once and every other source that I have check all say that his birth was never confirmed, unknown, not told. And after referring to history the early church never celebrated Christmas or "Christ Mass." Christmas is actually a continuation of the Feast of Saturnalia which doesn't celebrate our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but on the other hand celebrates the pagan god Tammuz. And we have mass churches across the world that celebrate this holiday. In the book of Jeremiah, the 10th chapter even the custom of the Christmas tree is talked about. Christmas was celebrated way before the birth of Christ. Just think the mass media appeal that christmas has. Feel free to research this for yourself... please... What Im starting to realize is that people don't research anything anymore. We just accept anything that has been done throughout generations. I know this is way out of a lot of people's comfort zones. But be open-mind. I just want TRUTH.

Is there anyone familiar with these subject..

Luke 2:1-20 (New International Version)

Luke 2
The Birth of Jesus
1In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2(This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3And everyone went to his own town to register.
4So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

The Shepherds and the Angels
8And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. 9An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ[a] the Lord. 12This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."
13Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
14"Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."

15When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let's go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about."

16So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger. 17When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, 18and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them. 19But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart. 20The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told.


Footnotes:
Luke 2:11 Or Messiah. "The Christ" (Greek) and "the Messiah" (Hebrew) both mean "the Anointed One"; also in verse 26.

Source: BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Luke (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%202:1-20)
(So I don't have to type it all myself.)

My opinion on the subject is this: That somewhere along the line, historians screwed up. (But surprise there!) They LOST when JC was actually born. They found the biggest holiday, and integrated "Christ Mass" into that, because they thought it would creat mass appeal to Christ. They were right. The only problem is instead of celebrating the birth of christ, we lost that, and now we should just celebrate his prescence in this world.

They took over another holiday because it would have been too hard to start a new one. All religions are guilty of it, but doesn't it just make life easier? I mean, if not, we would have 2 different holidays every day of the week. I don't know about you, but I can't afford to buy that many presents. :rolleyes:

a lot of religions borrow or adopt aspects from other religions or belief systems (yes there is a difference). If you burn a yule log, you are practicing an old pagan custom from the winter solstice also called yule, which happens to be around the time other faiths decided to throw in a holiday to distract people away from other holidays around the same time (christians aren't the only ones either). Churches, temples, and such were also started by pagans, and also the idea for sainthood, prayer beads (now called rosaries), not to mention the x-mas tree- where the yule log came from.
this is a subject I find very fascinating and while I am a pagan, I won't discredit any other holidays because I believe they have established their roots and traditions, and it's, really, not worth fighting over.

You are correct
Christmas and easter are pagan ceremonials for the winter solstice and the goddess of fertility
Christmas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas)

The selection of December 25 for Christmas (http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_sel.htm)

Christmas - Was Jesus born on December 25th? (http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Christmas/christmas.html)

Luke 2,8: "That night some shepherds were in the fields outside the village guarding their flocks of sheep"... During winter nights sheep were normally held in stables. They were only left in the fields during warmer spring or summer nights.

I respect your perspective. And believe Im not trying to argue or anything. I just want to discuss this issue.

In Psalms 11:3 If the Foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

You literally have millions of Christians that celebrate this holiday each year, they have christmas trees in their homes, wreaths, lights and navity scense. But look at the scripture, us as the body of Christ can't dabb in the world pull a custom we think is nice and put a Christian STAMP on it and call it holy. God forbids that. In the old testament he constantly confirmed his word by telling the children of Isreal to not take part in the traditions of man... We can not worship God in our own way, or the way we think we should.

There are so many religious traditions that are deceiving many. Christmas and Easter are just the small fraction.

You are right and
God forbids things that many religions endorse

Think about it. When we take part of these holidays, especially Christmas, we're basically taking part in idol worship and don't even know... In we're worshiping God in vain. And God can't receive that worship because its contaminated.

I agree. People like following what they believe though so it is hard convincing people.
Basically, you "insult" their religion you ''insult'' them that is the way they see it.
They get offended and say you are not respecting their right to believe what they believe.

That's because its popular to follow what the masses are doing just because its popular... no one takes a stand for the truth anymore.

There is a mass deption going on in the christian community.

Even in the book of Revelation it talk about how Satan will decieve the whole World...

Believe that process started a long time ago...

Yep the Bible says the way is narrow but the road to destruction is broad.

yep the Bible says the way is narrow but the road to destruction is broad.

Yep and that same scripture also that "And Few there be that find it"

The date for Christmas was unsettled for many centuries. The Gospels don’t give us any help. Back dating from Zachary’s Temple service can render Christ’s birth in late December. But all the computations based on the Temples feast days are unreliable. An approach was made using Old Testament festivals suggests a September date. Among the theories already discussed is the following:

The well-known solar feast...of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism, see Cumont's epoch-making "Textes et Monuments" etc., I, ii, 4, 6, p. 355. …

The earliest rapprochement of the births of Christ and the sun is in Cyprian, "De pasch. Comp.", xix, "O quam præclare providentia ut illo die quo natus est Sol . . . nasceretur Christus." — "O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born . . . Christ should be born."

In the fourth century, Chrysostom, "del Solst. Et Æquin." (II, p. 118, ed. 1588), says: "Sed et dominus noster nascitur mense decembris . . . VIII Kal. Ian. . . . Sed et Invicti Natalem appelant. Quis utique tam invictus nisi dominus noster? . . . Vel quod dicant Solis esse natalem, ipse est Sol iustitiæ." — "But Our Lord, too, is born in the month of December . . . the eight before the calends of January [25 December] . . ., But they call it the 'Birthday of the Unconquered'. Who indeed is so unconquered as Our Lord . . .? Or, if they say that it is the birthday of the Sun, He is the Sun of Justice."

Already Tertullian (Apol., 16; cf. Ad. Nat., I, 13; Orig. c. Cels., VIII, 67, etc) had to assert that Sol was not the Christians' God; Augustine (Tract xxxiv, in Joan. In P.L., XXXV, 1652) denounces the heretical identification of Christ with Sol.

Pope Leo I (Serm. xxxvii in nat. dom., VII, 4; xxii, II, 6 in P.L., LIV, 218 and 198) bitterly reproves solar survivals — Christians, on the very doorstep of the Apostles' basilica, turn to adore the rising sun. Sun-worship has bequeathed features to modern popular worship in Armenia, where Christians had once temporarily and externally conformed to the cult of the material sun (Cumont, op. cit., p. 356).

But even should a deliberate and legitimate "baptism" of a pagan feast be seen here no more than the transference of the date need be supposed. The "mountain-birth" of Mithra and Christ's in the "grotto" have nothing in common: Mithra's adoring shepherds (Cumont, op. cit., I, ii, 4, p. 304 sqq.) are rather borrowed from Christian sources than vice versa. (Source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christmas (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm))

What is the importance of a Christian feast being substituted for a pagan feast? This seems logical when teaching pagans Christianity; substitute Christian observances for pagan ones. Isn’t the real argument being made here is that there is no validity to Christianity? The logic used is that Christians took over a pagan feast day, then they too must be pagan. How is this true? Are you able to explain what difference a date on the calendar makes?

If we took ten steps from the wall, turned, closed our eyes and threw a dart at a calendar; wouldn’t it be likely we’d hit a date that some religion, or secular group, or an agrarian culture celebrated harvest, spring, winter, ‘big rain day,’ somewhere in the world, at some point in recorded history?

To my knowledge Easter eggs can’t necessarily be attributed to Catholics. And if Easter eggs could be attributed to Catholics I don’t understand how this would affect one’s faith. It’s a custom my family participates in – to my knowledge not one has been struck by lightning - yet.


JoeT

To my knowledge Easter eggs can’t necessarily be attributed to Catholics. And if Easter eggs could be attributed to Catholics I don’t understand how this would affect one’s faith. It’s a custom my family participates in – to my knowledge not one has been struck by lightning - yet.


JoeT

Easter eggs are the goddess of fertility for the spring solstice
The Bible says to be separate from Pagan ways.

I know Christians that became Wiccans God didn't strike them with lightening yet either.

Easter eggs are the goddess of fertility for the spring solstice
The Bible says to be separate from Pagan ways.

I know Christians that became Wiccans God didn't strike them with lightening yet either.

You mean to tell me that if you eat an Easter Egg it compromises your soul somehow? Scriptures don't want you to worship pagan gods. Where is the worship of a pagan god in eating an egg? For me, I enjoy the good food (and it shows). Now, if like some, you don't like eggs, that's all together a different thing.


JoeT

To the research that I've done the early church allowed this holiday to be celebrated as a tool to draw pagans to Christianity. That is not how you draw people in... Jesus Christ never participated in secular things to draw them...

But the feast was never changed, the name changed. That's all... That just like this secular world has heavy metal... but you have the church that tries to be like the world... now we have christian heavy metal... which is demon inspired music can't be done.

The bible never instructed us to draw the world in by being just like them... God doesn't work like that.

If you don't like eggs how does it make it an all together different thing?

I'll eat an easter egg but I'm not going to combine it with Jesus resurrection as the religions have.

....now we have christian heavy metal....which is demon inspired music can't be done.
.

One point I can differ on.

I don't think heavy metal in itself is demon inspired but it is the furthest from what I would label a Christian sound. I judge music on the song and artist themselves.

Maybe a new post on this would be interesting.

If you don't like eggs how does it make it an all together different thing?

I'll eat an easter egg but I'm not going to combine it with Jesus resurrection as the religions have.

I like scrambled eggs too. There's nothing wrong with eating eggs.

The problem is when you are participating in the Easter festivities (rituals)... actually celebrating the so-called Christian Holiday...

I like scrambled eggs too. Theres nothing wrong with eating eggs.

The problem is when you are participating in the Easter festivities (rituals)...actually celebrating the so-called Christian Holiday...

Precisely
(have to spread the rep)
Churches themselves will have easter egg hunts and so forth even

One point I can differ on.

I don't think heavy metal in itself is demon inspired but it is the furthest from what I would label a Christian sound. I judge music on the song and artist themself.

Maybe a new post on this would be interesting.


Quick note on that sound... if you remember in the old testament when the king request David services to play for him... the king at that was tormented by a spirit, the bible said that David played his harp... and the king was delivered... now notice these... David never sung... that bible never said that... but the sound David had was anoited and holy... And God moved...

Satan understands how music and sounds work in the spirit realm...

Think about it... in today's music from Gospel to Hip hop... that rock sound and culture is everywhere like I've never seen it before...

But you are right that would be a good question...

Some Christian religions do not celerbrate these holidays. Such as Jahovah's Witnesses. The only thing the bible states to do yearly is to remember Jesus death. A memorial if you will.

Exactly you can feel the anointing on any music if the anointing is there.
I don't really listen to heavy metal Christian or non Christian but I know Resurrection Band is heavy metal and they are for real Christians.
I don't know if their music is all that anointed but I don't think it is demonic either.

I like Christafari and the old DC Talk rap.

I love really anointed music.

To the research that I've done the early church allowed this holiday to be celebrated as a tool to draw pagans to Christianity. That is not how you draw people in....Jesus Christ never participated in secular things to draw them....

But the feast was never changed, the name changed. thats all.....That just like this secular world has heavy metal....but you have the church that trys to be like the world....now we have christian heavy metal....which is demon inspired music can't be done.

The bible never instructed us to draw the world in by being just like them...God doesn't work like that.

It's my understanding Catholic's avoid 'heavy metal' in Church; light metal as well.

But, I think you have the wrong understanding of 'feast' when used in this context. From memory, Christmas came from the early Catholic celebration. Those celebrations are called Ecclesiastical Feasts. It declared a Holy Day to celebrate the Eucharist, celebrating our spiritual faith and the history of our redemption, the memory of the Virgin Mother of Christ, or of His apostles, martyrs, and saints, in a special Mass. Now that's not to say that certain delicacies weren't enjoyed afterwards. So in antiquity, when you read about feasts or celebrations, the normal context is going to Church to worship. On Christmas we celebrate the Eucharist and celebrate in prayer (a 'feast') of Christ's birth; more often than not at midnight. If you're interested follow the link, it follows the celebration as far back as Irenaeus (a 1st century catechist, i.e. teacher) CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christmas (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm)

No, we don't want to be 'just like' people in Christ's day - they didn't have running water for proper bathing. That's not the point. The point is a sacred worship of God.

JoeT

Hello, you are right, christmas and easter are pagan celebrations.
But God seeks those who will worship him in spirit and in truth, yes christians have gone and taken these celebrations, and use them to celebrate the birth of Christ and his resurection, but we should be thankful that Christ has dominated these celebrations.
Even though most people celebrate these to say they are Christians, and probably don't step foot in a church the rest of the year.
So those of us who do know the true meaning of the birth of Christ, and his death, and resurection should celebrate it every day, and especially during those holidays, not as the world does, but as we know is pleasing to God.
Let Christ continue to dominate those holidays before the easter bunny, and santa claus take Christ completely out of those celebrations.
God Bless America! God Bless You! ----- Zeke-----

It's my understanding Catholic's avoid 'heavy metal' in Church; light metal as well.

But, I think you have the wrong understanding of 'feast' when used in this context. From memory, Christmas came from the early Catholic celebration. Those celebrations are called Ecclesiastical Feasts. It declared a Holy Day to celebrate the Eucharist, celebrating our spiritual faith and the history of our redemption, the memory of the Virgin Mother of Christ, or of His apostles, martyrs, and saints, in a special Mass. Now that's not to say that certain delicacies weren't enjoyed afterwards. So in antiquity, when you read about feasts or celebrations, the normal context is going to Church to worship. On Christmas we celebrate the Eucharist and celebrate in prayer (a 'feast') of Christ's birth; more often than not at midnight. If you're interested follow the link, it follows the celebration as far back as Irenaeus (a 1st century catechist, i.e. teacher) CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christmas (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm)

No, we don't want to be 'just like' people in Christ's day. That's not the point. The point is a sacred worship of God.

But where does the winter solstice feast fit in that that is the question
How much pagan are you putting in the celebration of Christ's birth or resurrection?

The Persian Mithras cult spread during the 3rd and 4th centuries B.C.E. and predates Christian ceremonies and rites such as: baptism, communion wafer, and Sunday rest. On December 25, the sacrifice of a bull celebrated the Sol invictus (the invincible sun) and signaled the birth of a young sun god who sprang from a rock or a cave in the form of a newborn infant.

The Romans celebrated the Winter Solstice on December 25th as a renewing of the sun every year. Also the Romans celebrated the festival of the Saturnalia from December 17th to the 24th to honor Saturn, the god of grain and agriculture. The festival consisted of a period of goodwill, devoted to visiting friends and the giving of gifts.

At the beginning of the first century, Christianity emerged but not until the 4th century did Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus. The motive behind the introduction of this celebration aimed at subverting the practice of pagan rituals such as Mithra and Saturnalia. Pope Liberus introduced the Nativity on December 25th 354 C.E.. By the 5th century, the event became so customary that it began to mark the beginning of the ceremonial year.

One has to remember that anything, even the cross can have bad meanings also. Everything from a tree ( worshiped by some) to playing music in the church.

We have to remember that the it was illegal to be a Christian in the early church, to do so, could mean death.

So they often borrowed practices or held their celebrations during the time the pagans did thiers so they would not be caught.

Try having a celbration on Dec 10th if it was illegal to do so, but you wait till Dec 25 no problem everyone is party

The claim in the OP was that feast days were really pagan celebrations, I was showing how Christmas was established.

Christianity (Catholicism) began in Caesarea Philippi where Matthew recorded Christ’s commission, appointing His Prime Apostle to be the rock on which He’d build His Church, giving His protection that not even the gates of hell could prevail against. (Cf. Matt 16:18)


JoeT

In regard to Mithras this is all I have, its' not much but I don't think any historian can add much.

A similarity between Mithra and Christ struck even early observers, such as Justin, Tertullian, and other Fathers, and in recent times has been urged to prove that Christianity is but an adaptation of Mithraism, or at most the outcome of the same religious ideas and aspirations (e.g. Robertson, "Pagan Christs", 1903). Against this erroneous and unscientific procedure, which is not endorsed by the greatest living authority on Mithraism, the following considerations must be brought forward.

(1) Our knowledge regarding Mithraism is very imperfect; some 600 brief inscriptions, mostly dedicatory, some 300 often fragmentary, exiguous, almost identical monuments, a few casual references in the Fathers or Acts of the Martyrs, and a brief polemic against Mithraism which the Armenian Eznig about 450 probably copied from Theodore of Mopsuestia (d. 428) who lived when Mithraism was almost a thing of the past -- these are our only sources, unless we include the Avesta in which Mithra is indeed mentioned, but which cannot be an authority for Roman Mithraism with which Christianity is compared. Our knowledge is mostly ingenious guess-work; of the real inner working of Mithraism and the sense in which it was understood by those who professed it at the advent of Christianity, we know nothing.

(2) Some apparent similarities exist; but in a number of details it is quite probable that Mithraism was the borrower from Christianity. Tertullian about 200 could say: "hesterni sumus et omnia vestra implevimus" ("we are but of yesterday, yet your whole world is full of us"). It is not unnatural to suppose that a religion which filled the whole world, should have been copied at least in some details by another religion which was quite popular during the third century. Moreover the resemblances pointed out are superficial and external. Similarity in words and names is nothing; it is the sense that matters. During these centuries Christianity was coining its own technical terms, and naturally took names, terms, and expressions current in that day; and so did Mithraism. But under identical terms each system thought its own thoughts. Mithra is called a mediator; and so is Christ; but Mithra originally only in a cosmogonic or astronomical sense; Christ, being God and man, is by nature the Mediator between God and man. And so in similar instances. Mithraism had a Eucharist, but the idea of a sacred banquet is as old as the human race and existed at all ages and amongst all peoples. Mithra saved the world by sacrificing a bull; Christ by sacrificing Himself. It is hardly possible to conceive a more radical difference than that between Mithra taurochtonos and Christ crucified. Christ was born of a Virgin; there is nothing to prove that the same was believed of Mithra born from the rock. Christ was born in a cave; and Mithraists worshipped in a cave, but Mithra was born under a tree near a river. Much as been made of the presence of adoring shepherds; but their existence on sculptures has not been proven, and considering that man had not yet appeared, it is an anachronism to suppose their presence.

(3) Christ was an historical personage, recently born in a well-known town of Judea, and crucified under a Roman governor, whose name figured in the ordinary official lists. Mithra was an abstraction, a personification not even of the sun but of the diffused daylight; his incarnation, if such it may be called, was supposed to have happened before the creation of the human race, before all history. The small Mithraic congregations were like masonic lodges for a few and for men only and even those mostly of one class, the military; a religion that excludes the half of the human race bears no comparison to the religion of Christ. Mithraism was all comprehensive and tolerant of every other cult, the Pater Patrum himself was an adept in a number of other religions; Christianity was essential exclusive, condemning every other religion in the world, alone and unique in its majesty. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Mithraism (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm)


JoeT

OP is referring to the pagan feast that originated the Christmas day. The church later mixed Christs birth and the feasts you are referring to into the pagan feast/holiday.

OP is referring to the pagan feast that originated the Christmas day. The church later mixed Christs birth and the feasts you are referring to into the pagan feast/holiday.

That's the point the pagan feast didn't originate Christmas. Nor did Christians turn into pagans.

JoeT

My point is why would they mix them together when the Bible clearly says to be separate from Paganism.

As Fr_Chuck said, maybe to conceal the fact they were celebrating Christian feast days; which by the way was considered pagan by the polytheist of antiquity. They were hunted and killed, i.e. Martyred. It could simply be as I suggested, as a matter of coincidence the pagan feast day coincided with the Christian feast day. Its disingenuous draw an opinion of actions 2,000 years ago based on the simple fact that an occurrence of an event fell on a certain date. So an Ecclesial feast falling on the same day does not constitute fraternizing with the pagan?

By the way, I can’t find the word pagan or paganism in Scripture can you point me to a verse? Do your Scriptures tell you not to mix with the sinner?


JoeT

I never said do not mix with the sinner.
That is another related but separate topic

The Bible DOES discuss
Babylon
Witchcraft
The Old Testament is full of stories on pagan worship and how God called it idolatry.

Moses cautioned the children of Israel: “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable way of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God. The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord has not permitted you to do so” (Deuteronomy 18:9-14).

“For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you as king” (1 Samuel 23).

Leviticus 19:26 is that "observing times" is condemned literally in the same breath as eating blood, a practice clearly forbidden by the apostles in Acts 15 and 21. So, even from this one verse we can see quite clearly that the apostles considered the observance of times a pagan practice. And, since the apostles considered observing times a pagan practice, for a Christian to "observe times" would mean that they had incorporated a pagan practice into their worship of God and had, therefore, violated Deuteronomy 12:29-32 where God commands his people not to do unto Him what the pagans do unto their gods.

Both 2 Kings 21:6 and 2 Chronicles 33:6 associate the pagan practice of "observing times" as "provoking God to anger." Similarly, "provoking God to anger" is associated with idolatry in general in all the following verses: Deuteronomy 4:25, Deuteronomy 32:16-17, Judges 2:12, 1 Kings 14:9, 1 Kings 15:30, 1 Kings 16:2, 1 Kings 22:53, 2 Kings 17:11, 2 Kings 17:17, and 2 Kings 22:17.

What is significant about the phrase, "provoking the Lord to anger" is its similarity to Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 10, where Paul writes, "flee from idolatry" in verse 14, and then with regard to eating meats sacrificed to idols writes the following:

1 Corinthians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

in Exodus 20 verse 2, God refers to Egypt as the "house of bondage." No wonder Paul is borrowing this idea of "bondage" and "slavery" with regard to pagan practices in Galatians 4. But more importantly, in verse 5, God declares that the reason the Israelites are forbidden from idolatry is that God is "a jealous God." So, by referring to both "provoking the Lord" and to God being a jealous God in 1 Corinthians 10, Paul is clearly showing the partaking of pagan sacrificial meals is absolutely wrong and equivalent to idolatry, which is why Paul states "flee from idolatry." Clearly, Paul does not want Christians anywhere near pagan practices including eating meat sacrificed to idols and observing times.

Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs [0226] of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

At this point it is no surprise that this verse begins with God commanding his people not to learn the ways of the pagans, even as Deuteronomy 12 commands God's people not to practice the ways of the pagans unto the LORD God. However, here in Jeremiah we also find the peculiar statement that the "heathen are dismayed at the signs of heaven." And God tells his people Israel not to be "dismayed at the signs of heaven." But what does this phrase, "the signs of heaven" mean?

Jeremiah 10:2-4
Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not

biblestudying.net (http://www.biblestudying.net/liberty10.html)

Occultism and Witchcraft in the Bible (http://www.dianedew.com/occult.htm)

My point is why would they mix them together when the Bible clearly says to be separate from Paganism.
It was separate from paganism, didn't mix with it. It gave the pagans a sweet solution, like Christian missionaries in Africa teaching sun worshippers about the Son of God. The missionaries started with where the natives were and slowly brought them around to who the Son of God really was -- not a sun, but a son. The missionaries to the American Southwest and Texas did the same thing -- started with where the natives were spiritually and brought them around to Christianity.

So that should make it standard practice for Christians to think there is nothing wrong with Easter egg hunts and the other non Christian things that Christmas and Easter represent.

So that should make it standard practice for Christians to think there is nothing wrong with Easter egg hunts and the other non Christian things that Christmas and Easter represent.
Christmas = birth of Jesus
Easter = resurrection of Jesus

My kids and I dyed eggs for Easter baskets and had a great time sharing the decorated eggs with each other and with other kids, along with sharing various kinds of candy. Bunnies and chicks mean new earthly life, just like Jesus means eternal life. Our Sunday School always made sure the kids knew the similarities and the differences.

As far as I see it, YES, Christians kind of "took over" other festivals, but NO, that doesn't mean we shouldn't celebrate on them.

First of all, we should celebrate Christ. Why not do it on the well established days that are already there?
You didn't mix it with pagan-ism. That was a long time ago, and out of your control. You aren't celebrating paganistic views, or anything else.
You dye Easter eggs because it's tradition, celebrating the resurrection of Christ. You have a Christmas tree because it's tradition, celebrating the birth of Christ. NOT because it relates to any other source of praise for any other reason.

I DO agree, that if you intentions were mixed religions/beliefs, then you shouldnt' do it. But, if you are ONLY doing it to celebrate the holiday's "intended" purposes (on the standpoint of whatever the "intended" purpose is for your religion) they why does it matter? You may know that others use the same day, but if you believe that yours is the true reason, then I don't see why it should cause any problems.

Sorry, kind of back-tracking here, but I missed a whole page or two... :o

Jesus was born in April.if you are willing to traverse from the Bible and do some other homework:)

Art, where is the proof of in which month Christ was born? I've never seen difinitive proof for any month, and I've looked.

EDIT: Just realized how arguementative that sounds. I was actually asking a question, not trying to say you are wrong. :)

Art, where is the proof of in which month Christ was born? I've never seen difinitive proof for any month, and I've looked.

EDIT: Just realized how arguementative that sounds. I was actually asking a question, not trying to say you are wrong. :)

There are many sources to indicate that April was the month. Proof ,that is no such thing.Much speculation would be a better way to phrase that.
Here are some links.
I'm not into debating this but I have found the facts to be pertinent.Not a website but what is known from scholars.

When Was Jesus Born? (http://www.revneal.org/Writings/jesusbirth.htm)

Okay, I just skimmed, but that source you gave me indicated MY BIRTHDAY! :eek:

...If we project Jesus' conception on or about December 24, and if we assume a normal pregnancy of 280 days, Jesus would have been born on or about September 29, 2 B.C.. Of course, this is only an approximate estimation. It is conceivable that John the Baptist could have been conceived and born a week or so earlier than our conjecture, or a week later. Likewise, it is entirely possible that Mary could have received Gabriels annunciation and conceived the Christ child as early as the very first week of Elizabeth's 6th month, and not half to two-thirds of the way through the month. In this case, Jesus would have been born as early as the first week of September, rather than at the end of the month. Any combination of these factors might be possible, which could push Jesus' birth as much as a month earlier, or a half-month later, depending upon the variables, but this doesn't seem likely to me. I believe that the evidence points to a mid-to-late December conception and a late September birth for the Son of God.

Conclusion:
What does it matter if Jesus was born on or about September 29th...
Okay, I'm to tired, and that is all going over my head, but unless I missed something, that site believes Jesus and I share a birthday?

Don't know.Don't care.It changes nothing for me.My savior that's it!
Let's celebrate Easter & Jesus' True Birthday, April 17! (http://www.utopia-net.org/English/0417jesus1.html)

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/dec-25-a-345197.html#post1686886

I never said do not mix with the sinner.
That is another related but separate topic

The Bible DOES discuss
Babylon
Witchcraft
The Old Testament is full of stories on pagan worship and how God called it idolatry.

Moses cautioned the children of Israel: “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable way of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God. The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord has not permitted you to do so” (Deuteronomy 18:9-14).

“For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you as king” (1 Samuel 23).

Leviticus 19:26 is that "observing times" is condemned literally in the same breath as eating blood, a practice clearly forbidden by the apostles in Acts 15 and 21. So, even from this one verse we can see quite clearly that the apostles considered the observance of times a pagan practice. And, since the apostles considered observing times a pagan practice, for a Christian to "observe times" would mean that they had incorporated a pagan practice into their worship of God and had, therefore, violated Deuteronomy 12:29-32 where God commands his people not to do unto Him what the pagans do unto their gods.

Both 2 Kings 21:6 and 2 Chronicles 33:6 associate the pagan practice of "observing times" as "provoking God to anger." Similarly, "provoking God to anger" is associated with idolatry in general in all the following verses: Deuteronomy 4:25, Deuteronomy 32:16-17, Judges 2:12, 1 Kings 14:9, 1 Kings 15:30, 1 Kings 16:2, 1 Kings 22:53, 2 Kings 17:11, 2 Kings 17:17, and 2 Kings 22:17.

What is significant about the phrase, "provoking the Lord to anger" is its similarity to Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 10, where Paul writes, "flee from idolatry" in verse 14, and then with regard to eating meats sacrificed to idols writes the following:

1 Corinthians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

in Exodus 20 verse 2, God refers to Egypt as the "house of bondage." No wonder Paul is borrowing this idea of "bondage" and "slavery" with regard to pagan practices in Galatians 4. But more importantly, in verse 5, God declares that the reason the Israelites are forbidden from idolatry is that God is "a jealous God." So, by referring to both "provoking the Lord" and to God being a jealous God in 1 Corinthians 10, Paul is clearly showing the partaking of pagan sacrificial meals is absolutely wrong and equivalent to idolatry, which is why Paul states "flee from idolatry." Clearly, Paul does not want Christians anywhere near pagan practices including eating meat sacrificed to idols and observing times.

Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs [0226] of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

At this point it is no surprise that this verse begins with God commanding his people not to learn the ways of the pagans, even as Deuteronomy 12 commands God's people not to practice the ways of the pagans unto the LORD God. However, here in Jeremiah we also find the peculiar statement that the "heathen are dismayed at the signs of heaven." And God tells his people Israel not to be "dismayed at the signs of heaven." But what does this phrase, "the signs of heaven" mean?

Jeremiah 10:2-4
Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not

biblestudying.net (http://www.biblestudying.net/liberty10.html)

Occultism and Witchcraft in the Bible (http://www.dianedew.com/occult.htm)

This is actually the scriptures I was about to put up. These holidays didn't pop up in the new testament. They were celebrated way before new testament times... alot of these holidays involved idol worship and witchcraft...

Its just in the days we're living in now, things can look so innocent, that's why you have to look and see where did these holidays and customs come from that are kept from generation to generation going back before Jesus's time...

You have to be very careful.

The bible says to "Prove all things, Hold fast to that which is good" So guard your spirit.

Im a christian and I found that actually Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus Christ at all. Jesus Christ's birth is not mention in the bible not once and every other source that I have check all say that his birth was never confirmed, unknown, not told. ?

Think you might read the New Testament there buddy What we know about Jesus birth is contained there.

The celebration of Christmas is a tradition that started centuries after Christ, and conveniently filled the hole left by dropping some pagan rituals. We have continued to develop the tradition and now it is all about retail sales of junk we don't need anyway.

You see Jesus knew this sort of thing would happen he warned us when he said it is by your traditions you nullify the Word of God. Any way it is a good excuse to get together with the family

What does it matter if Jesus was born on or about September 29th


"nothing" and in advance, Happy Birthday!


JoeT

The Bible DOES discuss Babylon Witchcraft. The Old Testament is full of stories on pagan worship and how God called it idolatry.
I think we would all agree that there are biblical stories of evil, idolatry, paganism, provoking God and angels.

So, this means what with regard to Christmas being a pagan holiday? {Surly, you see how difficult it is to say “Christ’s Mass is pagan” – which is actually what’s being implied.}


JoeT

Whatever
I don't think you get the point I was making

There is a big difference between what the Bible teaches and what religion teaches.

As you say God did not tolerate any involvement with other religions or any of their practices or traditions, so there is no way in the world he will tolerate it now.

Of course religions will present volumes of philosophical explanations as to why they go against what God requires and even argue that it is in fact what God requires.

The Bible is easy to understand and those that tell you otherwise want to introduce philosophy and tradition into the Bible teachings, and take your money and revel in the power and glory they receive from other people.

JoeT,
I agree with you.
If, and it is a big IF, there is something pagan about Christianity it is 100% OK with me and many others that to convert something bad into something good in Christianity is the right thing to do.
Example, years ago I was involved in the conversion of a pagan Druid into Christianity and had the honor of being his Godfather during the ceremony.
To see his face when he received the grand slam of baptism, Confirmation, confession, and first communion it was as if he had a bright light shining through his face.
The grace of God was there for all to see.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You may as well have left him performing his Druit rituals and simply renamed them Christian and the process would be much quicker.

You cannot perform pagan rituals and simply say it is okay because I now call them christian

You may as well have left him performing his Druit rituals and simply renamed them Christian and the process would be much quicker.

You cannot perform pagan rituals and simply say it is okay because I now call them christian

This is a trick question so be careful. This may seem totally unrelated, but let me ask a question. In the parable of the prodigal son, what is one of the morals being taught?

1). The Father rejoiced because at least one son stayed did all those things ‘right’?

2). The Father rejoiced because he wanted stake for dinner.

3). The Father rejoiced that the prodigal son no longer dances with pigs for food thus doesn’t smell so bad?

4). The Father rejoiced because the son who was once dead to the family came back?

Can you relate your question to converting pagan rituals to ‘Christmas Mass’? I can.



JoeT

Joe,
I can see where you are coming from with that.
I hope that I Newton can.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Arcura:

Yeah, and it would have been witty too, if I could spell steak.

JoeT

I completely agree with you, I am a Seventh Day Adventist and we do not celebrate Christmas or easter or any of the other "christian" festivals. We only have a thanksgiving service on Dec 31st for that year. Not once in the bible or has any historian has given proof that Jesus was born on Dec 25th.

I recently came across an article that said that Jesus was born in the summer months in bethlehem. How ever it is freezing in bethlehem in December. The shepherds were all out in the grassy fields with their sheep the night the angels shared the good news. I'm sure that they would'nt be there had it been freezing. And during His crucifixion when Peter denys him to the woman thy are all by the fire warming themselves because it's very cold.So he didn't die in April either. I agree that global warming will have an effect on climate but not as drastically as this.

chocodrip,
Believe as you wish, but the shepherds bring their sheep in from the high mountains in the fall where though the winter is cold it is not as freezing frigid as the mountains.
Have you ever been in a desert? The days are toasty warm of hot but the nights are very chilly.
Nights in Death Valley are often ion the 30's and 40s.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I heartily agree with you on the question of Christmas and Easter. These ARE holidays that were co opted into Christianity in order to make it more palatable to people who did NOT believe in Christ or His worship. I think that claiming that because God has not stricken down the celebrants, it is therefore fine to do. I myself, do NOT celebrate Christmas, Easter, or Halloween, and haven't for over 20 years, though I am a "born again Christian". I can find no instance where we are admonished to celebrate either Christmas OR Easter... in fact NEITHER word is even found in the Bible, except in one instance... Acts 12:4
"And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people." In this instance, it is obviously a mistranslation... Easter was not even KNOWN to the people who God inspired to pen His Word, nor a part of Christian doctrine until several centuries later... how could it possibly be the correct translation? We ARE admonished, however, NOT to mix pagan practices with Christianity:

"And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark:7:7)

"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."
(Mark 7:12-14)

"And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them."
(2 Kings 17:14-16)

"Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them."
(Jeremiah 10:1-3)

"And ye shall know that I am the LORD: for ye have not walked in my statutes, neither executed my judgments, but have done after the manners of the heathen that are round about you."
(Ezekiel 11:11-13)

These are but a few of the many verses upon which I made my decision NOT to celebrate. I must stress here, that this is a personal decision, and not one that I believe is the difference of whether you are a Christian OR deserving of salvation. To my knowledge, the only deciding factor in that ultimate fate, is a personal acceptance of the free gift of salvation offered to all by our Lord Jesus Christ. I do not claim that anyone will be consigned to hell because of their observance or nonobservance... and I base this on the following verses:
Romans 14

" 1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. "
And

"17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

20For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

To me, it is a matter of knowledge... once you know (or believe you do), you have the responsibility to act accordingly. If, to you, it is sin... it IS sin. I do not condemn people who, through lack of knowledge/understanding celebrate these holidays to God's glory. For me, it is an affront to God to mix a pagan "holiday" with the worship of God, and I cannot indulge in this sin.

I heartily agree with you on the question of Christmas and Easter. These ARE holidays that were co opted into Christianity in order to make it more palatable to people who did NOT believe in Christ or His worship. I think that claiming that because God has not stricken down the celebrants, it is therefore fine to do. I myself, do NOT celebrate Christmas, Easter, or Halloween, and haven't for over 20 years, though I am a "born again Christian". I can find no instance where we are admonished to celebrate either Christmas OR Easter.....in fact NEITHER word is even found in the Bible, except in one instance...Acts 12:4
"And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people." In this instance, it is obviously a mistranslation....Easter was not even KNOWN to the people who God inspired to pen His Word, nor a part of Christian doctrine until several centuries later...how could it possibly be the correct translation? We ARE admonished, however, NOT to mix pagan practices with Christianity:

"And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark:7:7)

"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."
(Mark 7:12-14)

"And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them."
(2 Kings 17:14-16)

"Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them."
(Jeremiah 10:1-3)

"And ye shall know that I am the LORD: for ye have not walked in my statutes, neither executed my judgments, but have done after the manners of the heathen that are round about you."
(Ezekiel 11:11-13)

These are but a few of the many verses upon which I made my decision NOT to celebrate. I must stress here, that this is a personal decision, and not one that I believe is the difference of whether you are a Christian OR deserving of salvation. To my knowledge, the only deciding factor in that ultimate fate, is a personal acceptance of the free gift of salvation offered to all by our Lord Jesus Christ. I do not claim that anyone will be consigned to hell because of their observance or nonobservance....and I base this on the following verses:
Romans 14

" 1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. "
And

"17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

20For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

To me, it is a matter of knowledge...once you know (or believe you do), you have the responsibility to act accordingly. If, to you, it is sin....it IS sin. I do not condemn people who, through lack of knowledge/understanding celebrate these holidays to God's glory. For me, it is an affront to God to mix a pagan "holiday" with the worship of God, and I cannot indulge in this sin.

Seriously? I have the knowledge of all of these so called pagan holidays. So what? Do we as born again Christians celebrate them as such? REALLY? Christmas? Easter? PLEASE. The non-Christians are STILL trying to take CHIRST out of Christmas. And we so called Christians are having trouble with celebrating Christmas and Easter? :rolleyes: These "pagan" Holidays are where some actually hear the gospel maybe for the first time. Sorry I don't get it the objection. I don't get the compromise.

The birth of Christ is IN the Bible. No, Jesus didn't not specifically say to remember his birth. But the fact that non Christians today prefer and promote using" Happy Holidays" instead of Merry CHRISTmas.. speaks volumes. Here is a biblical thought... what Satan means for harm, God turns around for good!! Radical stuff, I know. Sometimes Christmas and Easter are the only times people go to Church. I wonder how many have been saved on those days?

BTW... You totally do NOT understand what the Apostle Paul is saying. We are FREE. He was FREE to eat meat that was sacrificed to idols. SHOCKING back in the day. WHY? Because it meant NOTHING!! Paul refers to the ones who wouldn't eat the meat as the WEAKER Christians.

I think this is a PERFECT example of gagging on a nat and swallowing a camel. Just my thoughts.