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rjanssen
Oct 23, 2006, 10:35 AM
Why are transfer switches so expensive? What's wrong with
Using a 3-way switch for each circuit that I want to connect
To my generator?

labman
Oct 23, 2006, 10:58 AM
I am looking for an easy way out too. The 3 way switch should work, but leave you with no circuit breaker protecting the wiring. Yeah, you could set up another circuit breaker box, but again you rigged it, you could have most of what doing it right would have cost and be breaking code. I have seen sub panels with a double throw switch for $60-$80. If I don't find a better solution soon, I may go that route. I already had to put some half size breakers in my 20 breaker 100 amp box. I would be delighted if somebody posts a better idea.

I fell into a deal on a Coleman 6250 watt generator. To use it legally, it would cost more to pay an electrician to wire in a transfer switch. I am rather bold on DIY projects and have little hassle from the inspectors. But think I will skip that one.

bhayne
Oct 23, 2006, 11:03 AM
At the load end there is nothing wrong with a three way switch (as long as ratings are matched). You require an additional steps to disconnect generator power from the utility power and vice versa.

However, if you forget to throw a switch though and connect your generator to the utility- buy, buy generator. A circuit breaker will not operate fast enough to lower the interrupting current (the generator's windings will look like a short circuit) and the insulation on the generator's windings will fault.

tkrussell
Oct 23, 2006, 01:15 PM
Using a three way switch is "thinking outside the box", since a 3 way switch really is a single pole double (TYPO CORRECTION** pole**) throw switch, however, as labman mentions, does not offer overcurrent and short circuit protection of a circuit breaker for the generator power side of the switch.

Depending on the quantity of branch circuits you want to power, consider something similar to a Gen-Tran switch found at the following link:

http://www.gen-tran.com/eshop/10Browse.asp?Category=MTS6-10

You will find several units that can handle from 1-10 circuits, and each switch is a SPDT switch and circuit breaker, all built in one unit, alnong with the generator power inlet.

I am not sure what bhayne means by "additional steps to disconnect generator power from the utility power and vice versa."
, as a three way switch works exactly like a real transfer switch, it is in either one position or the other, and the gen power cannot be connected to the utility power.

Again, thou, you will not have any protection of the generator power if any circuit using a 3 way switch, if a short or an overload occurs the generator will continue to deliver power until one of two things happen, the short or overload burns the brach circuit wiring or the genset will fail.

Therefore, your solution of just using a 3 way switch is not allowed. As you can see for about $200-300, plus installation of about 2 hours, you have a perfectly safe and easy to operate system.

bhayne
Oct 23, 2006, 01:33 PM
OK, I messed up. But at least I admit it! I doubt that these transfer switches are retrofit and I look very closely at retro-fit installations involving service entry equipment- especially when it involves older houses. I'm sure that I'm not the only one (which is why your probably looking at 3-way switches as a simpler alternative in the first place).

The installation that I was referring about was a genset connected to panel breakers. During utility operation the breakers are open. During Generator operation the breakers are closed but the main breaker is open. This satisfies code requirements (breakers are not unidirectional) but requires additional operations to isolate the generator from the utility. If both are connected, the breaker(s) will protect the generator supply conductor but may not protect the generator's windings.

Actually, after reading the manual to the above transfer switch, it is very similar to my idea except my idea does without the expense of a new box and all that wiring!

tkrussell
Oct 24, 2006, 01:57 PM
Bhanye, why would you not allow a UL Listed ,prepackaged unit, made by GenTran, a division of Reliance/Rockwell Automation, a premiere electrical manufacturer, as is Reliance?

Instead of a simple unit, made specifically for retrofit in any age installation, the installation consisting of a few mounting screws and a two wirenuts per circuit to splice into the existing branch circuit, you recommend a homemade contraption with , at least 3 connections for each circuit, plus the splices, and no method of overcurrent and short circuit protection.

Your statements of being a strict inspector are contradictory to your advice.

I sure hope people don't take this advice and start creating their own "transfer switches" in this manner.

Again, astounding.

bhayne
Oct 25, 2006, 06:34 AM
Whatever you can afford!

Just goes to show that you don't have to be rich to be safe. Actually, Rockwell Automation and Reliance tend to use other namebrand equipment, put their stamp on it and give it a hefty markup. They are the last place I'd look for a residential installation!

newaukumdon
Nov 10, 2006, 08:40 PM
Simple answer guys! Gen-Tran Transfer switch or the new ones by Reliance. Easy cheap and best of all safe!

Look on eBay or craigs list I just sold a 6 circuit for $150.00
VERY EASY TO INSTALL AND COMES WITH INSTALL DIRECTIONS

rjanssen
Nov 11, 2006, 06:51 AM
Thank you for your responses. I have a special situation that makes it impossible to install a Gen-Tran switch. I have no main disconnect. That's right. No main disconnect. The house was built in 1952. It has an FPE main lug panel with four 15 amp 115v circuits and one 20 amp 115v circuit. All circuits are protected by Stab-Lok circuit breakers.

In 1963 a central air conditioner was installed. Two black wires run from the hot bus bars in the panel to a disconnect switch installed just outside the panel. The disconnect switch has two 30 amp cartridge fuses -- one for each black wire. There is a similar disconnect switch on the compressor outside.

All the house wiring is inside metal conduit. I don't know if it is rigid or EMT.

My main concern about a 3-way switch is the fact that I would be running a whole circuit through that switch for many years to come. My only experience with a 3-way switch is turning a light on or off.

How good are the contacts in a 3-way switch? I've seen diagrams of a DPDT transfer switch and it looks something like the disconnect switch on my central air conditioner. Really secure contacts. I've never seen the inside of a 3-way switch and I wonder about the contacts and the chances of arcing.

As for protecting the cicuits when I'm on generator power, the generator has two 115v receptacles, each protected by a 20 amp fuse. The only motors I would be running are the furnace blower on continuous operation and the refrigerator, which would cycle on and off. The refrigerator is on the 20 amp circuit so no worry there. The furnace blower is on a 15 amp circuit but it runs continuously. Everything else would be lights, TV, and the computer. That's all. I wouldn't run the microwave, dishwasher, toaster, or washing machine while I was on generator power. I have gas heat, stove, and hot water.

tkrussell
Nov 11, 2006, 07:30 AM
What was and still is allowed for a Main Disconnecting Means is called the "Six Switch Rule", which appears is what was applied to your service. So, you still have only six switches to shut off the main power to the entire home, and your service is still in compliance.

Keep in mind, any additional branch circuits will cause your service to not be in compliance with NEC and local codes.

So what is the problem? Why is installing a 4 or 6 circuit GenTran impossible? All A GenTran does is intercept the branch circuits, which in your situation are also acting as main switches.

Three way switches are available in 15 amp and 20 amp ratings, and are available in different grades similar to light,medium, and heavy duty, that may be listed for resistance and/or inductive loads. If being used for anything besides incandescent lamps, they need to be rated for inductive loads.

Thou I am furnishing the information you are asking for, I am not recommending you build your own "transfer switch assembly", and would rather you install a UL Listed assembly, that is easy to install, will work reliably and safely.

You have been given two points of view to decide on, the final decision is all up to you.

rjanssen
Nov 11, 2006, 08:12 AM
Thanks, tkrussell! I never heard of the "Six Switch Rule." I'm surprised, though, that it's allowed. The bus bars are always hot. Is it OK to remove and install circuit breakers with the bus bars hot? As I understand a Gen-Tran switch, it's essentially a sub-panel. So I would have to install a circuit breaker in the main panel to feed the Gen-Tran switch. I can do this with the bus bars hot? Also, are Stab-Lok circuit breakers even available?

labman
Nov 11, 2006, 09:07 AM
Can I high jack this thread? I am really getting serious about the Gen-Tran or other similar panels. I have a 1970 GE 100 amp panel that takes TOQ, TOL, etc. breakers. It is mounted on the back wall of my garage. Where can I locate sub panel? Does code give minimum and maximum heights? What about mounting it sideways? Most of my essential circuits go down and over to the crawl space. If the subpanel was mounted below the main panel, you could connect most of the essential ones without splicing. Can you splice wires in the main panel? Will the existing single buss for ground and neutral be a problem?

tkrussell
Nov 11, 2006, 09:12 AM
Yes, it is possible to remove and install breakers while the bars are hot, just need extra caution. But, look at the product I furnished below, and you will see that removing breakers or trying to find FPE StabLok breakers will not be necessary.

Yes, FPE breakers are still available for replacements, marketed by American Breaker. FPE had some issues years ago and, no longer makes StabLok panels.

Are you sure there is not a main breaker at the meter location? May not be one there, just had to ask.

Yes the six switch rule is still allowed, I recently did a 3000 amp 277/480 volt 3 Phase service for a manufacturing plant using this rule. The switchboard came rated for "Service Entrance Equipment with Six Switches" and with only six breaker slots. Sure someone can come along and add another breaker, but once that happens, a 3000 amp main switch is required.

Take a look at this webpage, and download the instruction manual:
http://reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?15114A

A closer look at GenTran, I see they want a main breaker, and the Reliance I provided is what use to be GenTran system that I am familiar with.

The Reliance Model # 15114A is a four circuit, with a SPDT switch and circuit breaker for each circuit. Simply shutoff each circuit, remove the branch circuit wire, splice onto the load side wire from the transfer switch, connect the line side from the TS to the breaker in you panel, do this for all four circuits. Be sure the transfer switches are all in "Utility" mode, and turn on the breakers in your panel. Done.

As always, be very careful working in a live panel.

tkrussell
Nov 11, 2006, 09:25 AM
Can I high jack this thread? I am really getting serious about the Gen-Tran or other similar panels. I have a 1970 GE 100 amp panel that takes TOQ, TOL, etc. breakers. It is mounted on the back wall of my garage. Where can I locate sub panel? Does code give minimum and maximum heights? What about mounting it sideways? Most of my essential circuits go down and over to the crawl space. If the subpanel was mounted below the main panel, you could connect most of the essential ones without splicing. Can you splice wires in the main panel? Will the existing single buss for ground and neutral be a problem?


Sure can, it is now public domain, so have at it.

GE THQL breakers will fit the same as the existing breakers, and will not void any UL listing.

Disconnect switches and breakers should be no higher than 6.5 feet to the top handle. No minimum on lower, just need to use common sense, like protection from physical damage and water spray, don't mount so low that snow will bury it, things like that.

Sure, sideways is not a problem, looks a little weird, but electricity does not care. No specific code exists to worry about.

Splicing branch circuits in the panel they are supplied from is allowed. These types of transfer switches rely on this practice for easy installation.

The equipment ground and neutral from the generator will connect to the main panel's neutral bar, and separated if applicable.

newaukumdon
Nov 11, 2006, 10:28 AM
A transfer switch is a "three way switch" and would require the same degree of expertise to install, I do believe that by removing your fuse you are disconecting service to the circuits needed to operate and at the same time a Gen-Tran has an "off" position giving a disconnect.

ceilingfanrepair
Nov 11, 2006, 12:24 PM
FPE had some issues years ago

I'm a living witness!

rjanssen
Nov 11, 2006, 04:25 PM
This last post by ceilingfanrepair has got me worried. I guess I really should replace the FPE panel as soon as possible. Shoot. Do you know what that means? The FPE panel is rated at 70 amps. So I'll have to upgrade my service. Which means that I might as well go to 200 amps. That means a new meter box, probably larger conduit to the new panel. I might as well have a disconnect switch outside. And maybe put the wires to the house underground. How much would all of this cost, excluding the underground wires?

Thanks for all the info, tkrussell. I didn't know that it's considered proper to do that stuff with the bus bars still hot. Pretty scary, though. The Pro/Tran model 30216A rated at 7500 watts would be perfect for my situation: http://reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?30216A

But it looks like the FPE panel has to go. That being the case, should I still go with the same transfer switch?

ceilingfanrepair
Nov 11, 2006, 04:31 PM
Don't take my word for it, see what TK has to say.

rjanssen
Nov 11, 2006, 05:05 PM
Dont take my word for it, see what TK has to say.

I'll take your word for it.

TK just said that FPE had some issues with the Stab-Lok breakers. I figured that the fears were mainly fueled by alarmists, otherwise TK would have said something more forceful. But I did more research and now I'm more concerned.

I think that it's mainly a problem with the double pole breakers. One breaker will get hot and the other breaker will prevent it from tripping. I don't have any of those.

But it's an old, poorly designed panel with breakers that are 54 years old. I'll feel a lot better once it's replaced.

ceilingfanrepair
Nov 11, 2006, 10:53 PM
Well I had a single-pole 15 amp breaker that didn't trip with a dead short, instead it just sat there shooting sparks. Plenty of the other breakers worked fine and tripped with a short or an overload so.. .

Like you said, I figured if your FPE really needed to be replaced, TK would have said something. But personally I won't let another one in my house!

omzig
Nov 11, 2006, 11:37 PM
With what you pay for 1 or 2 FPE breakers, you could probably buy a new panel.

tkrussell
Nov 12, 2006, 06:58 AM
This is weird situation regarding FPE. Years ago ,when much younger and before the Internet was available, as with most people, we electricians "heard rumours" about FPE, and some authorities were serious about, that FPE had a recall on the Stab-Loc breakers. We in the industry just took it at face value,believed it and would tell customers that their FPE panel had to go. Hell. If the inspectors were pushing it, then it must be right, right? Inspectors are never wrong, we thought.

If you do some research on FPE now, you will not be able to find an actual recall, whether voluntary or forced, of FPE Stab-Lok. There is plenty of documentation now available on the Net that speaks of the unofficial recall.


Since you seemed to be trying to save money by building your own MTS, and I was shoving down your throat a product to buy, I figured I was up against a certain mindset to save money, and with all the false rumors about FPE, and I had no concrete information to back what I had been told over the years, no sense in trying to force you into changing a panel that had not given you any problems, with no valid reason.

Do a search for "FPE Stablok Recall" to see what I mean, no where will you find any agency or organization saying to rip it out. You will find where FPE did do some replacing of other breakers, in a college, which are large commercial type breakers.

Here is just a couple:
http://www.greatinspector.com/faq-elec-fed-pacif.html
http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/99_c/stablok.htm

FPE is still around making large switchboard equipment. The StabLok breakers, as I said, are still made by American Circuit Breakers, and can still be found in hardware stores, etc. for replacement. Funny ACBC has a cheesy website not worth referring to.

http://www.federalpacific.com/

So, with saving money being the focal point of your original question, and another answer agreeing with that point with the approval of using a homemade assembly, seemed like I was going uphill. And then you mention FPE, I figured all I was going to to was push the hill uphill with bringing up a "recall" that never happened, if I brought up the debate about FPE.

Thou I am glad to have one person bring up a personal experience with FPE, things like that can and do happen with all brands at one time or another, still not much for me to rely on to push you to changing your panel. I sure am glad ceilingfanrepair is OK, and now will not use FPE because of his experience.No argument from me on that.

Since I never actually saw any results of FPE problems myself, and then over the years learn that what I thought was true was only rumours, and then learn a few years ago that the recall never really did happen, what can I say?

I use to tell customers that their FPE had to go, and, of course, was told I just wanted to create more business for myself. Did I feel the fool years later once I became informed. Go figure, the inspectors were wrong. Once I became one, I wanted to be as accurate as possible.

But this is the great thing about this type of forum, a healthy open discussion and exchange of ideas and sharing personal experiences, and comparing those to our own experience and knowledge. Having said that, seems this worked very well, and now have you hearing others with real events to share, and giving you the information to allow you to make sound decisions.

I try to answer questions point blank, without adding my opinion or getting someone to do more work or spend more money that they originally came here for. Now, seems, with this discussion, you, not us, have decided to change the entire service. Great!

Correct, the ProTran unit I offered is not necessarily the unit to use if you upgrade the service. Before you decide to upgrade from 70 amps to 200 amps, and if UG or OH is the way to go, really need to do the calculations to see what size service you do need. No guessing here on size of service.

But, if 100 amps is the size you need, and for a couple hundred dollars more gets you a 200 amp, no problem, I will not try to persuade you to stay with 100 amps. I am always for exceeding the minimums, if someone is willing to spend the extra dollars.

Judging by the 70 amp service with such few circuits, 100 amps is probably more than sufficient. To do the actual calcs, need the square footage of livable space, a list of all stationary electric appliances, type of heat, size of AC. Any future needs or plans to add on to the home?

Whether to go overhead or underground is difficult to say, without knowing or seeing the actual layout of the site. There are several issues to look at and compare costs. Aerial would be less expensive, since the utility will probably furnish the OH feeder for no charge, if that is the standard method in your neighborhood.

UG has its benefits, but the utility may charge for the UG feeder, or may furnish up to a certain distance for no charge. If electric goes UG, then you may want to have telephone and CATV go UG also, this can get more expensive and bit more complicated with dealing with other utilities.

A SWAG (Scientific Wild Guess) estimate, OH 200 amp service... $1500.00, a UG 200 amp service, with trenching, utility fees, and getting the other utilities UG while your at it... $3000.00. Keep in mind, I have no idea of distances, types of materials needed, market, just a guess to show ratio.

So, I am glad my subtle mention of FPE got someone's attention, without making me look like a typical snake oil salesman, and got you thinking about upgrading your service. If you like we can proceed from here if you want to furnish more details to size your service and decide which way to go.

A new service will allow a different transfer switch/generator panel to be considered, one that is better suited or can be more useful being incorporated into the service, rather than just an add-on.

labman
Nov 12, 2006, 07:37 PM
To run my refrigerator, freezer, pump, and furnace all at once would only take 4056 watts. And they seldom would all running at once leaving me plenty for lights and maybe even short runs of the microwave. I also realized that 6250 watts is only 26 amps divided evenly between 2 legs. That puts it in a 30 amp breaker and #10 wire. However, if I set up a subpanel with all that plus a few lighting and receptacle circuits, I think I would want a more robust feed from the main panel for routine use. Likely one of the peak amps would be when the power went off and came back on with both the freezer and refrigerator making hot starts as the line voltage ramps back up. Sometimes I think when it seems to take several tries for the power to come on and stay on, it means it has to shed load by popping breakers or frying motors. I often shut my stuff off until the power stabilizes.

Until I decided I need a more robust feed from the main panel, I was really thinking of a double throw switch. I am not having much luck finding what I think I need. Mouser Electronics lists a NKK switch, S732-RO 25 amps resistive load. That is borderline, costs $50, and it wouldn't have the sturdy look to reassure the guy checking out the lit up house before he climbs the pole. Guess I am back to looking at sub panels with a transfer switch.

The ice storm 2 years ago really threw a scare into me. We were lucky, our power was only off a few minutes. I think there were thousands of customers in our county without power for 2 weeks. We lose electricity, the furnace, the water, and even the phone goes. Fortunately, it stayed warm. We often have a storm, and then the bottom drops out of the thermometer. Without electricity to power the furnace, the pipes would freeze.

labman
Nov 14, 2006, 11:28 AM
Disconnect switches and breakers should be no higher than 6.5 feet to the top handle. No minimum on lower, just need to use common sense, like protection from physical damage and water spray, dont't mount so low that snow will bury it, things like that.

Sure, sideways is not a problem, looks a little weird, but electricity does not care. No specific code exists to worry about.



I ask about sideways because the dryer sits under the main panel. There is about 10''-11'' down to it. So I could fit say a 10'' x 14'' panel in the same wall cavity if I put it in sideways. I figured it would work, but wasn't sure about code. A white or green wire will work as a hot wire. I guess common sense covers not locating a panel where you have to move the dryer to open the door.

I am not sure about the dryer or other stuff on the floor under a panel, but the house was built in 1970 with the dryer outlet in the same corner as the box. I am still not sure if there is any building inspection here.




Splicing branch circuits in the panel they are supplied from is allowed. These types of transfer switches rely on this practice for easy installation.


I was hoping so, but mounting it under the main panel would reduce the splices needed, never a bad idea. Mounting it in the next wall cavity would mean Swiss Cheesing the stud between as well as as bunch of splices.



The equipment ground and neutral from the generator will connect to the main panel's neutral bar, and separated if applicable.

Would it be a good idea to have the neutral and ground separated along with the other work?

omzig
Nov 14, 2006, 11:53 AM
A white or green wire will work as a hot wire.Code-wise I don't think that this is true. Green can never be used as a hot. White can be reidentified if it's in a cable, but can't be used as a hot if it's single wire in conduit.

omzig
Nov 14, 2006, 01:38 PM
My point was things I know will work will create problems:o Ah, sorry didn't catch that. I thought that was strange coming from someone with your knowledge.

labman
Nov 15, 2006, 06:27 PM
I spent some time at Lowe's and home Depot today and wasn't happy with what I found. The 10-3 SO cord didn't have a ground that I would need for a 4 wire connection. No double throw switches more than 20 amps. No small sub panels. Everything they had was labeled main lug. They actually had reliance transfer switches in stock, but I am not sure I like the way they work seeming to require a hot wire out to the switch, and then back to the main box plus running 60 amp service out to the switch. It also comes as a kit with a 25 foot cord that will only be a problem of excess cord. No double throw breakers. $50 for a power inlet box, just a water tight box with a 4 prong plug on the bottom. At least the unit is small enough to fit between my panel and the dryer.

tkrussell
Nov 15, 2006, 07:50 PM
There is much more options available at real electrical supply houses or wholesalers like Wesco, Graybar, Grainger. The box stores only carry a minimum of what is popular for light duty residential and there are limits because of the amount of parts and materials.

Check out the online Grainger catalog, works pretty good. Not the best prices but good for ideas and specs.

omzig
Nov 16, 2006, 12:37 AM
You guys ever see one of these?: http://www.interlockkit.com/intro2.htm

labman
Nov 16, 2006, 07:54 AM
$150 for a stupid little plate? What a rip off! Still maybe a cost effective solution. I could easily make one, but getting UL certification would cost thousands. Their list didn't show my 36 year old box. I have sent them the model number and other details including the age.

If they can furnish a kit, I think will go that way. That will require nothing more than running a cable out to a power inlet plus a short flexible cord. Likely I will sacrifice my dryer outlet saving shoehorning in a double pole breaker with 22 of the 20 slots already taken. If I want my power inlet outside the fence, using the dryer outlet wiring will save trying to run another cable through the already over crowded over lap between the garage wall cavity and the crawl space. We have a gas dryer. The outlet has not been used since my old air compressor wore out a few year ago. If I ever need it, I can do something then.

It will make all the circuits available. If I want something out of one of the spare bedrooms, I can flip the light on long enough to find it.

newaukumdon
Nov 16, 2006, 08:36 AM
You are a bright guy, so unless I missed something you are aware of the dangers of backfeeding? Just a courtesy check.

omzig
Nov 16, 2006, 08:46 AM
$150 for a stupid little plate? What a rip off!.Oh, but it comes with a drill bit and stickers too! LOL. This is another one of those things where you say "Why didn't I think of that?" They're probably making a fortune.

labman
Nov 16, 2006, 12:32 PM
Some cold night when the line man knocks on my door, the stickers may be worth more than the plate. Otherwise I figure if I am lucky, he takes my meter and tells me to ask customer service about getting it back.

labman
Nov 16, 2006, 09:13 PM
Their website didn't really have anything that looked like my ancient panel. I emailed them the model number and all the details. They emailed back wanting pictures. OK, I had an almost finished film in my camera including the first pictures on my new puppy. I got a picture of the panel and then took one of our 2 dogs drinking out of the same pan together. The film wouldn't rewind. I finally did it by hand working in what I hope was a dark enough closet. Dropped the film off at Wal-Mart. I also picked up batteries for the cheap little digital camera I have, not even a flash. I set up my 500 watt work light and took some pictures. They look fairly good and emailed them.

I mentioned locating the power inlet outside the fence. I had a dog chew up the flex for the A/C supply. I replaced it with rigid steel conduit. I wasn't going to risk EMT.

http://www.photolocker.net/images/Labman/KatetheAC.jpg

labman
Nov 18, 2006, 09:13 PM
Another possibility,
http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm

If the price isn't outlandish, and my utility will cooperate, I really think this is the way to go. Nothing else to do except pick up the flexible cord I will need with any of the systems. Well likely if I run it outside the fence, I should support it somehow besides drooping it over the wire fence. It would mean retaining my dryer outlet, and neither poking about my main panel or paying somebody else to do it. No questions about who did the work, and no widowhood for my wife.

What ever it costs, I should get more for my money than a metal plate and some stickers.

newaukumdon
Nov 18, 2006, 09:26 PM
GenerLink™ is installed by your local electric utility in less than 30 minutes. There is no need for you to be home and there is no need to rewire the house

That should give an idea of cost. There is also the assumption your local utility is abreast of the product. Would be very interested in results.

labman
Nov 20, 2006, 08:13 AM
Well, I guess I won't be going this way.

Product Part #: MA23-N Generlink, Non-Surge
MA23-S Generlink, Surge
With Cable: MA23-N MA23-S
$ 650* $ 725*

I did find this, http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Generator-Transfer-Switch-Volt/dp/B000K2GOBM/sr=1-7/qid=1163992558/ref=sr_1_7/002-5907505-

Still waiting to here back on a lock out plate to fit my box.

labman
Nov 27, 2006, 10:43 AM
If anybody has a Square D box, or is planning a new one, this is a great deal, http://ecatalog.squared.com/techlib/docdetail.cfm?oid=0900892680126e4f The price is only $30.

Still haven't heard back from the $150 rip off people.

newaukumdon
Nov 27, 2006, 11:22 AM
It looks to be a kit specific to a panel purchased in advance knowledge of a generator need.
Might be a good idea. It seems a little like reinventing the wheel.

jorgef
Jan 2, 2007, 03:44 PM
you will not have any protection of the generator power if any circuit using a 3 way switch, if a short or an overload occurs the generator will continue to deliver power until one of two things happen, the short or overload burns the brach circuit wiring or the genset will fail.

RE: Running a furnace via a 3-way switch connected to a generator.

It sounds like a furnace 3-way switch connected to a generator via a power inlet receptacle works just like a transfer switch, but with no circuit breaker. Is this the only difference?

Does it then follow that connecting a refrigerator or other appliance directly to a generator with an extension cord would present the same problem?

Lastly, is there any possible scenario where a 3-way switch could backfeed?

tkrussell
Jan 2, 2007, 04:36 PM
It sounds like a furnace 3-way switch connected to a generator via a power inlet receptacle works just like a transfer switch, but with no circuit breaker. Is this the only difference?

Correct.



Does it then follow that connecting a refrigerator or other appliance directly to a generator with an extension cord would present the same problem?

Correct.



Lastly, is there any possible scenario where a 3-way switch could backfeed?

None.

Be aware that I am not in any way a proponent of nor condoning 3 way switches to be used as transfer switches.

labman
Jan 2, 2007, 10:06 PM
You might look at setting an outlet and adding a cord to you furnace. Note, The plate on my furnace lists 12 amps max. All the components would need to be rated for at least 15 amps. I have a fused shut off at my furnace. I could instal the plug and outlet before it, retaining the fuse protection. Then I could run my furnace off an extension cord.

Unfortunately, there have been some reports of furnaces refusing to run on perhaps poorly regulated generator current. Maybe I will even rig mine up as a test before investing in a transfer set up. The search feature works well here, try something like generator + furnace.

jorgef
Jan 3, 2007, 03:17 PM
You might look at setting an outlet and adding a cord to you furnace.

RE: Comparing furnace plug/outlet to 3-way switch.

A plug/outlet configuration would disconnect both the hot and the netural when the plug is alternated between generator and branch power. A 3-way switch would disconnect only the hot. So, is a common neutral with a 3-way switch at all problematic? I have read these claims:

a) Linesmen can be jolted by backfeed through common neutrals.

b) The neutral must be switched to prevent current from flowing on the equipment grounding conductor, e.g. a failed common neutral could fry the generator.

tkrussell
Jan 3, 2007, 03:34 PM
I never heard of a neutral causing a backfeed, since a neutral is grounded, both at the service and at the utility pole.

Most transfer switches whether manual or automatic do not switch, or open the neutral, and the genset neutral is tied directly to the system neutral, and, as I said, grounded. These are called Non-Separately Derived Systems.

Therefore, the neutral is at zero potential, and a lineman will not get hurt working the neutral. When they do work on the hot lines, they intentionally ground those hot wires to the neutral and/or ground line to be sure the hots are brought down to zero potential.

Can you provide some reference regarding:

a) Linesmen can be jolted by backfeed through common neutrals.

b) The neutral must be switched

jorgef
Jan 3, 2007, 04:28 PM
Can you provide some reference regarding:

a) Linesmen can be jolted by backfeed through common neutrals.

b) The neutral must be switched

The above are claims made by users in other electrical forums, and they may be entirely incorrect. In seeking the opinions of others, such as those in this forum, I was hoping to discern fact from fiction. I believe you've done that for me and I appreciate your responses.

onamission1
Aug 21, 2009, 03:29 AM
Hmm interesting

Stratmando
Aug 21, 2009, 07:30 AM
Onamission, this is an old post. Not sure the Interlockkits were available then, They are available now, and Personally I think it is the Best/safest/most efficient way for Transfer.
Instead a small panel of Selected circuits, you can use anything on your Panel so long as it doesn't exceed the Generators Capacity.
You need a Power inlet box, and the Interlockkit. I only allows the Main Breaker to be on OR the Generator Breaker, No Backfeeding. Most Cost Effective:
http://www.interlockkit.com/
EDIT
I just looked back and the Interlockkit was mentioned, Although it is just metal Plates and stickers, It prevents backfeeding, it is much cheaper than the 8,10, 12 or whatever circuit transfer panel. You will pay more for the transfer panel and only a few select circuits can be used.

ohb0b
Aug 22, 2009, 02:25 PM
Actually, cheap transfer switches use "3-way" switches to individually switch branch circuits instead of transferring the entire service. These switches have individual fuses installed which take the place of the circuit breakers in your panel.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000BQN4T2/ref=dp_image_z_0?ie=UTF8&n=228013&s=hi