Seems to me that for all their talk about how Palin couldn't handle the heat as Governor of Alaska and was forced to quit, the Dems are the ones who are acting like a bunch of crybabies when a few of their town hall meetings don't go as planned.

Seems to me that the Dems can't handle it when their positions are questioned. They're so flustered that they've had to put out official statements complaining about "organized mobs" disrupting their town hall meetings.

Boo hoo.

You reap what you sow. Their organized attacks against Palin showed Republicans what can be done. The constant organized attacks against George Bush by Moveon.org, Michael Moore, and every liberal group in existence taught the Republicans a lesson about organizing their supporters at the grass roots level. From tea parties to town hall meetings, the Dems are having to take a bit of their own medicine.

Now the Dems can't handle the heat that THEY created.

Elliot

Really? The DNC put out a memo making that claim yesterday. Robert Gibbs made that claim as well.

So... Who is doing the organizing? Who has gotten paid to show up at a town hall meeting? Cany anyone name names?
You reap what you sow. Their organized attacks against Palin showed Republicans what can be done.

Now the Dems can't handle the heat that THEY created.Hello again, Elliot:

I'm not sure if you hear yourself... First you DENY the disruption was organized, then you say the Democrats got out organized...

You're kind of like Glen Beck, who in the same conversation said, "Obama has a deep seated hatred for white people...." Then a few seconds later, this, "I'm not saying that he doesn't have white friends"...

You want it BOTH ways, El. But we're wise to you.

excon

Supporting Palin. Wow.

Again and again you guys act like being organized is a bad thing. Just how the heck do you think the people will ever have an impact if we aren't organized? And all this BS - the latest ORGANIZED Democrat talking point (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/cash-clunkers-works-so-republicans-say-nooooo-383283-4.html#post1903959) in case you haven't caught the irony already - coming from supporters of the Community Organizer-in-Chief. If it wasn't so unbelievably hypocritical of you guys I'd have to laugh out loud.

Again and again you guys act like being organized is a bad thing. Hello again, Steve:

Being organized to shout down the democratic process ISN'T good. If your stuff is so right on, you wouldn't need to shout, or make up phony flow charts, or say the only reason the dems want to do this is to kill old people.

Maybe you do all that stuff because you can't win a straight up debate. That's what I'm thinking...

What I want to know, is why you support the insurance companies?? I KNOW they haven't done you any favors. Are you too drunk on the right wing koolaid to see what they're doing in your OWN life?

excon

Hello again, Elliot:

I'm not sure if you hear yourself..... First you DENY the disruption was organized, then you say the Democrats got out organized....

You're kinda like Glen Beck, who in the same conversation said, "Obama has a deep seated hatred for white people...." Then a few seconds later, this, "I'm not saying that he doesn't have white friends".....

You want it BOTH ways, El. But we're wise to you.

excon

What I deny is that any official group organized anything. No GOP group, no insurance companies, no Republican think-tanks organized anything. What you are seeing is a bunch of grass-roots individuals getting together and organizing THEMSELVES. These are known as "random associators" and they tend to be disorganized in the extreme.

Like it or not, what you are seeing is a grass-roots backlash at Obama's policies in general and his health policy in particular. Any "organizing" taking place is at the grass roots level, not at the level of political or corporate agencies.

Elliot

What I deny is that any official group organized anything. No GOP group, no insurance companies, no Republican think-tanks organized anything. What you are seeing is a bunch of grass-roots individuals getting together and organizing THEMSELVES. These are known as "random associators" and they tend to be disorganized in the extreme.

Like it or not, what you are seeing is a grass-roots backlash at Obama's policies in general and his health policy in particular. Any "organizing" taking place is at the grass roots level, not at the level of political or corporate agencies.

Elliot
Memo Details Co-ordinated Anti-Reform Harrassment Strategy | TPM Document Collection (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2009/08/memo-details-co-ordinated-anti-reform-harrassment-strategy.php?page=1)

Hello again, Steve:

Being organized to shout down the democratic process ISN'T good. If your stuff is so right on, you wouldn't need to shout, or make up phony flow charts, or say the only reason the dems want to do this is to kill old people.

Except for that last line this is EXACTLY the M.O. of the left.


Maybe you do all that stuff because you can't win a straight up debate. That's what I'm thinking...

You say that as if the other side actually has an open mind. Judging from the posters here in all the attempts we've made to have a straight up debate I can come to no other conclusion than most don't have an open mind... not even to the facts.


What I want to know, is why you support the insurance companies?? I KNOW they haven't done you any favors. Are you too drunk on the right wing koolaid to see what they're doing in your OWN life?

What I want to know is why you keep saying I support the insurance companies? I - like I thought you did at one time - support a limited government that doesn't stick its nose in my business at every opportunity. I haven't changed on that, you apparently have.

Obama's Community Roots

By David Moberg

This article appeared in the April 16, 2007 edition of The Nation.
(http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070416)April 3, 2007

In 1985, freshly graduated from Columbia University and working for a New York business consultant, Barack Obama decided to become a community organizer.


Since when did "organized" political action become a sin?

Memo Details Co-ordinated Anti-Reform Harrassment Strategy | TPM Document Collection (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2009/08/memo-details-co-ordinated-anti-reform-harrassment-strategy.php?page=1)

Just one problem with your article, NK.

It proves my point.

The "organization" is taking place at the grass roots level by TEA PARTY groups, not by the GOP, not by the insurance companies, and not by any registered political organization. The particular memo you have posted is by the "Connecticut Tea Party Patriots"

It is all taking place at the GRASS ROOTS.

Thanks for proving my point for me.

Elliot

Supporting Palin. Wow.

The post wasn't about supporting Palin. The post was about the hypocrisy of the Dems claiming that Palin can't take the heat, and then acting like a bunch of crybabies when the heat is turned up on them.

What I wanna know is why you keep saying I support the insurance companies? I - like I thought you did at one time - support a limited government that doesn't stick its nose in my business at every opportunity. I haven't changed on that, you apparently have.Hello again, Steve:

I don't like to have ANYONE tell me how to live my life... But, you seem to think that only government can do that... But, government must be doing something good for the insurance companies. Otherwise, the health insurance industry wouldn't need to spend so much money courting government favor...

And, I submit that the favors they're doing for the health insurance industry run directly opposite of YOUR needs as a citizen and a family man.

So, as much as I am opposed to the government telling me what to do, I am MORE opposed to corporate America telling me what to do. I know you don't see it in that light. For you righty's, business is good, even if it isn't...

I've said before, and I'm saying again, when corporate profits begin to erode the quality of life for the average American, instead of boosting it, as it's supposed to do, then those profits become OBSCENE, and must be stopped.

To see if I can elevate the conversation to another level, the health insurance industry is the SAME as the oil industry. We, as a nation, will not allow that industry to bankrupt us, as surly as they're going to do if they're NOT nationalized. We WILL do that... You're certainly not for them selling the last of our oil, are you?? We're going to need some for our tanks.

If the health insurance industry hadn't abused us, the price of health care would be hunky dory and we wouldn't even be addressing it now... But, they did, and we are.

excon

I don't like to have ANYONE tell me how to live my life... But, you seem to think that only government can do that... But, government must be doing something good for the insurance companies. Otherwise, the health insurance industry wouldn't need to spend so much money courting government favor...

EVERY industry courts government favor. Democrats are just as adept at doling out and accepting favors as Republicans if not more so. Obama was going to end lobbyist influence but he's right in the thick of it himself.


So, as much as I am opposed to the government telling me what to do, I am MORE opposed to corporate America telling me what to do. I know you don't see it in that light. For you righty's, business is good, even if it isn't...

As we've pointed out a number of times, at least with corporate America we DO have a choice, unlike the phony 'choice' being offered in Obamacare.


If the health insurance industry hadn't abused us, the price of health care would be hunky dory and we wouldn't even be addressing it now... But, they did, and we are.

If lawyers hadn't abused the health care industry we might having a completely different conversation now. As for the rest, we've all admitted it needs reform, we just differ on how to go about that. I'm NOT willing to turn that much power over my life over to the government, you apparently are. And THAT is what's motivating the grassroots - of ALL persuasions not just conservatives - to organize against this massive government takeover.

I've said before, and I'm saying again, when corporate profits begin to erode the quality of life for the average American, instead of boosting it, as it's supposed to do, then those profits become OBSCENE, and must be stopped.



Your argument MIGHT make some sense if that was what was happening. But that QUALITY OF LIFE under the private health system is BETTER than under any nationalized system.

Study after study has shown that we have better medical outcomes for EVERY DISEASE AND AILMENT than any other country in the world. I have previously posted some of those studies. The profits of the insurance company have succeeded in IMPROVING the quality of health care to the American people over that of other countries.

Also, if the goal of nationalized health care is to keep costs down, and if the government is supposed to be able to do that because they are more efficient than private insurance, how do you explain that the rise in costs of health care for Medicare and Medicaid have outpaced the rise in costs in private medicine by 35% since 1975 (http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/20090714_HPPv7n07_0709.pdf)?

Seems to me that those profits you think are so "obscene" is the very thing that is creating an IMPROVEMENT in the quality of life for Americans, both in terms of quality of care and in terms of COST of care.

Elliot

Just in case we haven't shown enough hypocrisy from the whiners (which we have), here's another little tidbit (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/25419.html)...


"The hot days of August are going to be a critical time for every member of Congress," said Rep. Chris Van Hollen, the Maryland Democrat charged with getting his colleagues re-elected next year as chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. "You don't want to create a political vacuum when you leave Washington."

Van Hollen said he has been assured by the White House it will be actively promoting health care, with the help of outside groups allied with it. And Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine, chairman of the Democratic National Committee, told House Democrats last week that the committee would help them sell Obama's agenda and as well as bolstering their reelection efforts next year.

A White House official said the administration is still in the process of making plans for the recess, but labor leaders and other administration allies told POLITICO that they’re gearing up to spend millions on television advertisements and grass-roots organizing. And, judging by spending already reported by some of these groups, they are off to an impressive start.

“We’re going to fight the fight,” said Gerald McEntee, the president of AFSCME, the public sector workers union. McEntee said his union would send television advertisements and organizers into the districts of more than 40 wavering legislators with the goal of getting their constituents “literally incensed about the fact that they’re standing in the way of health care reform.”

Did you especially get that last sentence? A union allied with and in conjunction with Obama ORGANIZING with television ads and ORGANIZERS "with the goal of getting their constituents “literally incensed."


Go ahead, keep spitting out today's liberal talking points without using your brain.

The post wasn't about supporting Palin. The post was about the hypocracy of the Dems claiming that Palin can't take the heat, and then acting like a bunch of crybabies when the heat is turned up on them.Have any representatives quit politics yet?

What I deny is that any official group organized anything. No GOP group, no insurance companies, no Republican think-tanks organized anything.

The "organization" is taking place at the grass roots level by TEA PARTY groups, not by the GOP,


FreedomWorks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreedomWorks) is involved.
Think Progress Spontaneous Uprising? Corporate Lobbyists Helping To Orchestrate Radical Anti-Obama Tea Party Protests (http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/09/lobbyists-planning-teaparties/)

http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/08/04/how-come-cbs-journalists-cant-recognize-paid-lobbyists-when-they-see-them/

Freedomworks isn't some "organic grassroots" outfit. It's run by former Republican House Majority Leader Armey -- corporate lobbyist, global warming denier and ladie's man. The President and CEO of Freedomworks is Matt Kibbee, who was trained by Lee Atwater. Kibbe was behind the attempt to get Ralph Nader put on the ballot in Oregon in 2004, prompting a complaint to the FEC of illegal collusion with the GOP.

Steve Forbes is on the FreedomWorks board. As Paul Krugman noted, their money comes from the Koch, Scaife, Bradley, Olin nexus, as well as other reliable funders of right wing infrastructure including Exxon Mobil.

Freedomworks has a long history of skunk works. In 2004, a woman who identified herself as a "single mother" in Iowa, Sandra Jacques, appeared at a George Bush town hall and gushed about his plan to privatize Social Security. She left out the part about being an employee of Freedomworks, who were lobbying on the issue at the time.

Right on cue, keep spitting today's talking point out in spite of all of the evidence of the hypocrisy smacking you in the face.

And just for grins (since I know you two won't acknowledge any of this)...

The Community-Organizer-In-Chief ORGANIZING the astroturf to do his bidding on health care (http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/hckickoff) instead of being president.

The Community-Organizer-In-Chief ORGANIZING the astroturf to do his bidding on the budget (http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-BarackObama/idUSTRE52F4EQ20090316) instead of being president.

The Community-Organizer-In-Chief begging for money to fund the astroturf (http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/06/organizing-for-american-gets-organizing.html) to do his bidding on health care instead of being president. From the email:


The campaign to pass real health care reform in 2009 is the biggest test of our movement since the election. Once again, victory is far from certain. Our opposition will be fierce, and they have been down this road before. To prevail, we must once more build a coast-to-coast operation ready to knock on doors, deploy volunteers, get out the facts, and show the world how real change happens in America.

And just like before, I cannot do it without your support.

So I'm asking you to remember all that you gave over the last two years to get us here -- all the time, resources, and faith you invested as a down payment to earn us our place at this crossroads in history. All that you've done has led up to this -- and whether our country takes the next crucial step depends on what you do right now.

Please donate whatever you can afford to support the campaign for real health care reform in 2009.

It doesn't matter how much you can give, as long as you give what you can. Millions of families on the brink are counting on us to do just that. I know we can deliver.

All in response to the groundswell begun by ONE person (http://michellemalkin.com/2009/04/15/a-tax-day-tea-party-cheat-sheet-how-it-all-started/).

And for even more grins, a comparison (http://theconservatives.com/blog/2009/aug/05/study-contrast/) of how protesters were treated under Bush and how they're treated under Obama.

Go ahead, spit those talking points out again.

FreedomWorks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreedomWorks) is involved.
Think Progress Spontaneous Uprising? Corporate Lobbyists Helping To Orchestrate Radical Anti-Obama Tea Party Protests (http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/09/lobbyists-planning-teaparties/)

Campaign Silo How Come CBS Journalists Can't Recognize Paid Lobbyists When They See Them? (http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/08/04/how-come-cbs-journalists-cant-recognize-paid-lobbyists-when-they-see-them/)

Yes, yes, I know. Any nebulous connection that can be made between grass roots organizers and "official" agencies, the libs will try to make.

"Did you hear... Robert MacGuffie from Connecticut Tea Party Patriots has a pet dog that once stayed in a kennel that also housed the dog of Christopher C. Healy, the Chairman of the Connecticut Republican Party. There's a clear connection between them. So the Connecticut Republican Party is behind the 'spontaneous uprisings'. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya..."

Elliot

Speech,
I don't see where they are planning to disrupt any proceedings - could you point that out for me since this is the point in question?

speech,
I don't see where they are planning to disrupt any proceedings - could you point that out for me since this is the point in question?

Can you tell me where in the OP that that is the point in question? I didn't think so.

speech,
I don't see where they are planning to disrupt any proceedings - could you point that out for me since this is the point in question?

Gee... and I thought that the point was to prove that these "spontaneous uprisings" were engineered by the GOP and its allies.

But the point has changed, I guess. Couldn't prove it, so you're dropping it. NOW the point is to prove that the people asking questions are "disrupting" the proceedings.

I haven't heard of any proceedings being disrupted. What I have seen and heard is that people are asking questions and they are not getting answers. The only things being disrupted are the Dem talking points on health care and their plans to ram it down our throats. Because talking points can't answer pointed questions meant to get to the heart of the matter. The Dems are realizing that their talking points don't stand up to facts and good questions. The Dems are realizing that their plan for ramming health care down our throats is being disrupted.

Elliot

Gee... and I thought that the point was to prove that these "spontaneous uprisings" were engineered by the GOP and its allies.But I did.

But I did.

And I showed you how it started with one woman. It doesn't get any more grassroots than that.

But I did.

No you didn't. What you proved, with your own posts, was that the organizing was done by grass roots groups... in specific you proved that Connecticut Tea Party Patriots is the group that sent out that memo that you refer to as "organizing".

You then tried to draw a connection between the "spontaneous uprisings" and various GOP-related and insurance company related groups. But you never made the connection between Connecticut Tea Party Patriots, the group that you proved was doing the organizing, and any of the agencies or lobbying groups that you say was behind them. You never made the connection between the group that put out THIS MEMO to organize THIS EVENT and any GOP-related agency and lobbying group.

That's what I meant by "nebulous connections". Just because a lobbying group MAY have been involved in helping organize the tea parties back in April (which was not true for the most part), that does not mean that they were in any way involved in organizing THIS EVENT. You cannot draw that connection based on any evidence you have provided.

You are grasping at straws to try to find a connection between the tea party groups and GOP lobbyists, and cannot make the connection between those groups and any lobbyists with regard to THIS EVENT.

Elliot

Hello again, El:

Deny all you like that the health care industry isn't behind it, and I've got a bridge to sell you...

What's the difference anyway? You're a supporter of business. So, if it's the business interests who are doing it, so what? Why would you deny that they would do that stuff? If I was an insurance executive, that's exactly what I would do, and that's exactly what I'm sure they're doing.

excon

Hello again, El:

Deny all you like that the health care industry isn't behind it, and I've got a bridge to sell you.....

What's the difference anyway? You're a supporter of business. So, if it's the business interests who are doing it, so what? Why would you deny that they would do that stuff? If I was an insurance executive, that's exactly what I would do, and that's exactly what I'm sure they're doing.

excon

The difference is... saying that insurance companies are against this health care "reform" gets a "big whoop". Who cares, they're biased anyway.

But if the majority of AMERICANS are against this as individuals, then it becomes an issue of politicians doing what they were elected to do... vote for what the PEOPLE want.

That's the difference. And the impression that the Dems are trying to make is that the former is the case. They are trying SOOO hard... and failing miserably.

Want to know why? Because most Americans are of the same opinion of Obama's health care plan as these Tea Party folks. It's not so hard for people who are angry at the plan to believe that other people would be angry about the plan too, and wouldn't need corporate or lobbyist backing to get them to say their piece. Which is exactly what's happening. It's so easy to believe it because THEY believe it too. And if the Dems keep denying that people can feel this way without corporate backing, they are going to alienate the people who share those feelings. THAT is why this is backfiring on the Dems.

However, you can try to claim that there is a connection between the GOP lobbyists and the Tea Party groups all you want. If you believe it... well, I'm sure you also believe that Elvis is still alive and kickin' back with the aliens. Got your tin hat on?

Elliot

Seems to me that for all their talk about how Palin couldn't handle the heat as Governor of Alaska and was forced to quit, the Dems are the ones who are acting like a bunch of crybabies when a few of their town hall meetings don't go as planned.

Seems to me that the Dems can't handle it when their positions are questioned. They're so flustered that they've had to put out official statements complaining about "organized mobs" disrupting their town hall meetings.

Boo hoo.

You reap what you sow. Their organized attacks against Palin showed Republicans what can be done. The constant organized attacks against George Bush by Moveon.org, Michael Moore, and every liberal group in existence taught the Republicans a lesson about organizing their supporters at the grass roots level. From tea parties to town hall meetings, the Dems are having to take a bit of their own medicine.

Now the Dems can't handle the heat that THEY created.

Elliot


Actually, whether liberal or conservative, as long as the citizens are particpating and voicing their concerns and opinions, I think all this is a good idea.

It would be more concerning if we acted like sheep going to the slaughter as one extreme leads us.



G&P

Ex, if you believe we needed an insurance company to tell us how bad Obamacare is then I've got a bridge to sell you, too.

Hello again, Steve:

I don't like to have ANYONE tell me how to live my life.... But, you seem to think that only government can do that.... But, government must be doing something good for the insurance companies. Otherwise, the health insurance industry wouldn't need to spend so much money courting government favor...

And, I submit that the favors they're doing for the health insurance industry run directly opposite of YOUR needs as a citizen and a family man.

So, as much as I am opposed to the government telling me what to do, I am MORE opposed to corporate America telling me what to do. I know you don't see it in that light. For you righty's, business is good, even if it isn't...

I've said before, and I'm saying again, when corporate profits begin to erode the quality of life for the average American, instead of boosting it, as it's supposed to do, then those profits become OBSCENE, and must be stopped.

To see if I can elevate the conversation to another level, the health insurance industry is the SAME as the oil industry. We, as a nation, will not allow that industry to bankrupt us, as surly as they're going to do if they're NOT nationalized. We WILL do that... You're certainly not for them selling the last of our oil, are you??? We're gonna need some for our tanks.

If the health insurance industry hadn't abused us, the price of health care would be hunky dory and we wouldn't even be addressing it now.... But, they did, and we are.

excon


https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/cash-clunkers-healthcare-383173-3.html#post1905056


There are healthcare companies out their existing because they perform a service that consumers need and or think is a good value. Yes there is money to be made, but there is in every sector of the economy.

If you feel the healthcare insurance companies are abusing you, don't sign up, don't pay the premiums, no one is forcing you are they? Pay everything out of pocket and you yourself determine your healthcare destiny. If enough people felt that way there would be fewer or no health insurance companies, right?

If you don't like the oil companies, don't buy gas or anything derived from petroleum products. Drill for your own oil or walk. Simple as that. Change the channel if you don't like the show. Is that not the ultimate in libertarianism?

Now when it comes to the government, YOU DON'T HAVE THAT CHOICE, if you are some teenager or twenty something working at McDonalds for $8 and hour they still take 7.5 % [ or something close to that ] of your pay and 7.5% from the employer, to pay into the government ponzi scheme called medicare and social security. Is that not against your libertarian leanings?




G&P

Another gem on the hypocrisy of The One's Whiners, from the Community-Organizer-In-Chief himself (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/09/17/politics/p185733D40.DTL&type=politics) on the campaign trail last year...


"I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face," he said.

And with timing that's so delicious, the Community-Organizer-In-Chief himself issued a new call today (http://michellemalkin.com/2009/08/05/obama-summons-his-army-this-is-the-moment-our-movement-was-built-for/) to rally the astroturf to participate in "thousands of events this month," organized by Obama and his allies of course.

So go ahead, keep on whiffing at today's talking point. Let him organize all he wants, just stop the whining about the rest of us exercising our right to participate in the debate.

When you start going to the Michelle Malkin site for your info you're a small step away from being a Glen Beck believer.

When you start going to the Michelle Malkin site for your info you're a small step away from being a Glen Beck believer.

The info you refer to is a verbatim email from Barack Obama. It doesn't matter if the scoop was from Michelle or Needkarma. Surely you're smart enough to figure that out. But then again, maybe I give you too much credit...

Nah I'm one of the stupid ones you think you're going to convince in your daily threads. Keep it coming maybe I'll get it.

Nah I'm one of the stupid ones you think you're going to convince in your daily threads. Keep it coming maybe I'll get it.

You noticed? :D

THIS is what officially organized dissent looks like:

Organizing for America | OFA Blog: Message from the President: "This is the moment our movement was built for." (http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/obamaforamerica/gGMPYf)



This is the moment our movement was built for.

For one month, the fight for health insurance reform leaves the backrooms of Washington, D.C. and returns to communities across America. Throughout August, members of Congress are back home, where the hands they shake and the voices they hear will not belong to lobbyists, but to people like you.

Home is where we're strongest. We didn't win last year's election together at a committee hearing in D.C. We won it on the doorsteps and the phone lines, at the softball games and the town meetings, and in every part of this great country where people gather to talk about what matters most. And if you're willing to step up once again, that's exactly where we're going to win this historic campaign for the guaranteed, affordable health insurance that every American deserves.

There are those who profit from the status quo, or see this debate as a political game, and they will stop at nothing to block reform. They are filling the airwaves and the internet with outrageous falsehoods to scare people into opposing change. And some people, not surprisingly, are getting pretty nervous. So we've got to get out there, fight lies with truth, and set the record straight.

That's why Organizing for America is putting together thousands of events this month where you can reach out to neighbors, show your support, and make certain your members of Congress know that you're counting on them to act.

But these canvasses, town halls, and gatherings only make a difference if you turn up to knock on doors, share your views, and show your support. So here's what I need from you:

Can you commit to join at least one event in your community this month?

In politics, there's a rule that says when you ask people to get involved, always tell them it'll be easy. Well, let's be honest here: Passing comprehensive health insurance reform will not be easy. Every President since Harry Truman has talked about it, and the most powerful and experienced lobbyists in Washington stand in the way.

But every day we don't act, Americans watch their premiums rise three times faster than wages, small businesses and families are pushed towards bankruptcy, and 14,000 people lose their coverage entirely. The cost of inaction is simply too much for the people of this nation to bear.

So yes, fixing this crisis will not be easy. Our opponents will attack us every day for daring to try. It will require time, and hard work, and there will be days when we don't know if we have anything more to give. But there comes a moment when we all have to choose between doing what's easy, and doing what's right.

This is one of those times. And moments like this are what this movement was built for. So, are you ready?

Please commit now to taking at least one action in your community this month to build support for health insurance reform:

http://my.barackobama.com/CommitAugust (http://my.barackobama.com/CommitAugust)

Let's seize this moment and win this historic victory for our economy, our health and our families.

Thank you,

President Barack Obama


There's grass roots organizing, and there's calls by the President to take action, backed by his political action group, Organizing For America. The two are NOT the same. One is the power of the people. The other is the power of the political machine.

So drop the hipocracy.

Elliot

One is asking people to support something, the other is aksing people to disrupt something. Seems different to me but Speech says I'm kind of stupid so y'know...

One is asking people to support something, the other is aksing people to disrupt something. Seems different to me but Speech says I'm kinda stupid so y'know....

Actually, you're the one that said you're stupid... "Nah I'm one of the stupid ones." I was commenting that you noticed my signature, which has appropriately been changed.

I have the display of signatures turned off. I don't see any of them ever.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/cash-clunkers-healthcare-383173-3.html#post1905056If you feel the healthcare insurance companies are abusing you, don't sign up. If you don't like the oil companies, don't buy gas or anything derived from petroleum products. Drill for your own oil or walk. Simple as that.

Now when it comes to the government, YOU DON"T HAVE THAT CHOICEHello in:

Ordinarily, you make sense. Here, you didn't. It's easy to say that I have a choice to use oil or not... But, it's kind of crazy to think that's a realistic alternative...

Actually, you don't have a choice about oil or health care. To say you do, defeats your argument.

excon

I have the display of signatures turned off. I don't see any of them ever.

Your loss.

One is asking people to support something, the other is aksing people to disrupt something. Seems different to me but Speech says I'm kinda stupid so y'know....

Actually, one is a call to support communism. The other is a call to support individual freedom and free choice in health care.

But I'm sure you wouldn't see the difference.

This is just a diversion website, I don't consider having loss anything here. Now if it was the CMS I administer that'd be different.

Actually, one is a call to support communism. hahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahah ahahahahhahahahahahha!!

hahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahah ahahahahhahahahahahha!!!!!

Yep. I was right. You can't see the difference.

Mary Katharine Ham has sufficiently exposed the manufactured outrage that's demonizing concerned American citizens holding their leaders accountable. As I pointed out earlier, the Tea Parties grew out of the efforts of one woman wanting to make a difference. The organized "mob" that Think Progress 'exposed' is a small local group started by Bob MacGuffie and four friends...


Think Progress, MSNBC 'Manufacture' a Story (http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/08/think_progress_msnbc_manufactu.asp) With Putative Smoking Gun 'Mob' Memo

When the "manufactured" outrage the Left is trying to demonize lines up so inconveniently with public polling, it's sometimes necessary to create evidence for the "manufactured" storyline.

Enter Think Progress, which unearthed this shocking, secret memo (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/townhallactionmemo.pdf&ei=ksV5Sq_vKaewtgeLkN2WCQ&sa=X&oi=spellmeleon_result&resnum=1&ct=result&usg=AFQjCNHTg_3iujzSVIc5QfECKCu2raOY3A) from the leader of a small grassroots conservative organization in Connecticut, which allegedly instructs members on "infiltrating town halls and harassing Democratic members of Congress."

Right Principles PAC was formed by Bob MacGuffie and four friends in 2008, and has taken in a whopping $5,017 and disbursed $1,777 (http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/cancomsrs/), according to its FEC filing.

"We're just trying to shake this state up and make a difference up here," MacGuffie told me during a telephone interview. He's surprised at his elevation to national rabble-rouser by the Left.

Right Principles has a Facebook group with 23 members (http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=98691129921&ref=search) and a Twitter account with five followers (http://twitter.com/rightprinciples). MacGuffie describes himself as an "opponent of leftist thinking in America (http://www.rightprinciples.com/bobmac.html)," and told me he's "never pulled a lever" for a Republican or Democrat on a federal level. Yet this Connecticut libertarian's influence over a national, orchestrated Republican health-care push-back is strong, indeed, if you listen to liberal pundits and the Democratic National Committee, who have crafted a nefarious web out of refutable evidence.

Think Progress highlighted his memo's directives to "‘Yell,’ ‘Stand Up And Shout Out,’ ‘Rattle Him’," calling it a "right-wing harassment strategy against Dems." The blog falsely connected MacGuffie to the national conservative group FreedomWorks through the most tenuous of threads. The Think Progress link that purports to establish MacGuffie as a FreedomWorks "volunteer" leads to his one blog posting on a Tea Party website (on the free social networking site, ning.com (http://teapartypatriots.ning.com/page/health-care)). Think Progress calls Tea Party Patriots a "FreedomWorks website."

The problem is it's not a FreedomWorks site, according to FreedomWorks spokesman Adam Brandon. FreedomWorks is a "coalition partner" of TeaPartyPatriots.org, but does not fund the site in any way.

"There is no formal structural connection," Brandon told me. "Never has been. Never will be. We're just fellow travelers in the movement."

When I asked MacGuffie if he was a volunteer for FreedomWorks outside the specious evidence Think Progress cited, he said, "Absolutely not. You can Google all day; you won't find it. There is no formal connection. I don't know anyone from FreedomWorks."

He joined the Tea Party Patriots community site when it was mentioned to him by several local Tea Party activists (whom he admits knowing.. . Smoking gun!), and "blogged there, very little." So MacGuffie, a local activist in Connecticut who never volunteered for FreedomWorks wrote a memo and also wrote a blog post on a site not paid for or hosted by FreedomWorks. There's your national conspiracy, folks.

The block quote Think Progress provides from MacGuffie's memo (dutifully reproduced on other liberal blogs) also implies there are sentiments in the memo that simply aren't there. Each of TP's examples of the "harassment" MacGuffie is inciting is preceded by a headline MacGuffie didn't write, which lends a considerably more sinister tone than MacGuffie used. The bolded headlines below do not appear in the memo, but do appear in Think Progress' block quote of it:


– Artificially Inflate Your Numbers: “Spread out in the hall and try to be in the front half. The objective is to put the Rep on the defensive with your questions and follow-up...

– Be Disruptive Early And Often: “You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep’s presentation, Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep’s statements early.”

– Try To “Rattle Him,” Not Have An Intelligent Debate: “The goal is to rattle him, get him off his prepared script and agenda. If he says something outrageous, stand up and shout out and sit right back down...

The attempt to paint him as a professional, funded operative is off-base, MacGuffie said, laughing.

"I guess they don't believe that people in America will stand up and fight back when government gets overbearing," said MacGuffie, who added that he originally e-mailed the memo to 8-10 Connecticut activists in June.

As is often the case, MSNBC anchors and the DNC alike have taken Think Progress' inaccurate sleuthing at face-value, elevating the humble Right Principles to heretofore unknown levels of national importance.

The Rachel Maddow Show repeated Think Progress' reporting on MacGuffie's connections, showing the memo, and declaring its author "affiliated with an organization called FreedomWorks (http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/rachel-maddow-gop-thugishness-town-halls-called)."

The DNC has now made the memo the centerpiece of its "Mob" ad out today, from which I grabbed this screen shot, at the :40 mark:
Mob ad.png

The voice over for this image says behavior at health-care town halls is "straight from the playbook of high-level Republican political operatives."

Or, the memo of Bob MacGuffie of Fairfield, Conn. who once wrote a blog post on Tea Party Patriots, a site that is not funded or hosted by FreedomWorks. It's all the same if you're looking to discredit an entire movement of real voters, I suppose.

The memo also includes these phrases, which are left out of the reporting and demagoguery:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/Mob%20ad.png

"Do not bring the signs into the hall if you want any chance to be picked for a question."

"Don't carry on and make a scene, just short, intermittent shout-outs," which may sound familiar because the shout-out part was quoted without context by Think Progress.

It also offers such guerrilla tactics as, "When the formal Q&A begins, get your hands up and keep them up— be persistent throughout the entire session. Keep body language neutral and look positive to improve chances of being selected." It instructs participants to be ready with follow-up questions and insist that representatives answer questions instead of launching into talking points.

The memo outlined strategies MacGuffie had used during a town hall meeting with his Rep. Jim Himes in May of this year. While organizing that event and writing the memo, he emphasized that critics should not get out of hand, he said.

His objective was to "make sure we didn't get kicked around, asked good, thought-out questions, and had follow-ups ready," he said. "We took him off his script, but we did not shout him down."

The tactics in the memo produced this horrifying civic spectacle. This is what the liberal blogs, Rachel Maddow, and the DNC are intent on preventing. I dare you to find even one errant word or rude action in Bob MacGuffie's "orchestrated, hateful" action. After all, he is the father of our movement:

X97sPeQcZAk

"[Our representatives] work for us, and there's a lot of good people up here who feel that way," MacGuffie said. "All of us have better things to do with our lives... and these are all real people. They just have to paint us as something else, I guess."

Posted by Mary Katharine Ham on August 5, 2009 05:35 PM

What a horrifying mob.

Meanwhile in addition to all the other examples of hypocrisy from Community-Organizer-In-Chief Barack "get in their face" Obama and his useful idiots, last month he held a conference call with bloggers (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/20/obama-calls-on-bloggers-t_n_241570.html) to urge them to apply pressure to lawmakers on Obamacare.

And did I say this White House is also looking for snitches?

It just keeps getting better, and the left can't even figure out the sheer lunacy they're displaying. Madame Pelose claims these corporate shills out there protesting are carrying swastikas to town hall meetings.

Nancy Pelosi claims protesters are "carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on healthcare."

CGzAi4vZqYI

And even better, seems she took the cue from the Kossacks (http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2009/8/3/1637/71466/81#c81).

Yep, that's how we want to organize and gain momentum, get that "mob" out there out with their swastikas.

Well now, looks like the big (ORGANIZED) guns are coming out for Obama. The largest federation of unions in the country, the AFL-CIO is mobilizing (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/06/unions-to-take-on-conserv_n_252720.html) to confront those "mobs" and "thugs (http://www.nowhampshire.com/2009/08/05/dem-chair-to-%E2%80%98muster%E2%80%99-obama-volunteers-to-%E2%80%98push-back-against-these-thugs%E2%80%99/)" otherwise known as American citizens and taxpayers.

I would point out that any organizing done

As far as tea parties etc. was without ANY help from the media.
The local stations here didn't even broadcast a story on it until it was so in they're face the had to.

Hello in:

Ordinarily, you make sense. Here, you didn't. It's easy to say that I have a choice to use oil or not... But, it's kinda crazy to think that's a realistic alternative....

Actually, you don't have a choice about oil or health care. To say you do, defeats your argument.

excon

Why thank you. For a family man myself there is no alternative to oil. I can't fit myself, wife and 3 middleschoolers in an insight or prius and the tesla is a 2 seat 89k plus exotic. Plus my wife won't let me get a motorcycle. ;) So we walk when we can, bike when we can, and unfortunantly for me have reduced our just driving around to see new things daytrips. But I CHOOSE these things, just like I CHOSE to drive a much more practical and fuel efficient minivan rather than a SUV.

There is a CHOICE IN HEALTHCARE. An individual can CHOOSE to go with or without health insurance, or smoke, or not exercise, or drink too much. An individual can CHOOSE to see an acupuncturist, or a chiropracter, or turn to alternative medicine.

Americans Spend $33.9 Billion On Alternative Medicine (http://copd.about.com/b/2009/08/05/americans-spend-33-9-billion-on-alternative-medicine.htm)

Like I said, your teenager or 20 something earning minimum wage pays 7.65%
Into Payroll Taxes: Basic Information for All Employers (http://taxes.about.com/od/payroll/qt/payroll_basics.htm) into a someone else's medicare and social security when there is a chance that they might not even live to medicare age or that medicare will be solvent when they qualify. Now in this case THERE IS NO CHOICE




G&P

Taxpayers are allegedly carrying Swastikas (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/08/05/pelosi_town_hall_protesters_are_carrying_swastikas .html)...

Taxpayers are Brown Shirts (http://www.columbian.com/article/20090806/NEWS02/708069952/Baird+fears+foes+may+plan+%E2%80%98+ambush%E2%80%9 9+)...


"What we're seeing right now is close to Brown Shirt tactics," Baird, D-Vancouver, said in a phone interview. "I mean that very seriously."

Taxpayers are un-American (http://arkansasnews.com/2009/08/06/lincoln-disruptions-of-health-care-meetings-sad-un-american/)...


Efforts to disrupt town hall meetings on health care reform are un-American, U.S. Sen. Blanche Lincoln, D-Ark. said today, though she later issued a statement retracting the remark.

“It’s so sad, because it’s diminishing to the process, it’s diminishing to our outcome,” Lincoln said in a conference call with reporters. “I think it’s sad that they choose to do that. I think it’s un-American and disrespectful.”

A few hours later, Lincoln issued the following statement: “Although I do believe that some of these protesters are disrespectful of other citizens in the audience who truly want to ask questions about health care, I shouldn’t have used the term ‘un-American.’ I support the right of every Arkansan to speak out and have their voices heard. I would just ask that we all continue to work in a constructive way to rebuild our economy and fine-tune out health care system so it works for all of us.”

And did I mention Obama is looking for snitches? Imagine if ANY of this had happened in reverse under Bush...

http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/hotair.com/greenroom/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/countingonyou-215x300.jpg

Hello Steve:

What does it matter what some Yahoo called some other Yahoo?I'm not sure what you're driving at... You think it's GOOD to disrupt meetings??

excon

Hello Steve:

What does it matter what some yahoo called some other yahoo?I'm not sure what you're driving at.... You think it's GOOD to disrupt meetings???

excon

I haven't seen any disruptions. What I've seen is open dissent with what the politicians were shovelling.

Open dissent with the government when it is wrong is not just a right. It is the highest duty of any patriot.

Elliot

Can you tell me where in the OP that that is the point in question? I didn't think so.

From the original question:

They're so flustered that they've had to put out official statements complaining about "organized mobs" disrupting their town hall meetings.So answer the question now.

I haven't seen any disruptions. What I've seen is open dissent with what the politicians were shovelling. Open dissent with the government when it is wrong is not just a right. It is the highest duty of any patriot.
Hello El:

You wear blinders, that's why. The REST of the world see's the truth, though.

excon

PS> I'm a dissenter. I LOVE to dissent... But, I NEVER disrupted a meeting and called it dissent... But, you guys call sort of things by the wrong name... Didn't your mom's teach you English??

Yes, yes, I know. Any nebulous connection that can be made between grass roots organizers and "official" agencies, the libs will try to make.
Well there's more than a nebulous connection elliot:
Raw Story Maddow calls out GOP operatives behind healthcare mobs (http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/08/06/maddow-big-money-behind-health-care-reform-protests/)
[quote]These political consultants and big-money backers are selling “crazy, disprovable, but nevertheless endlessly stoked conspiracy theories that health care reform is communism, that it’s a secret plot to kill your grandpa, that it’s a government takeover, it’s something called Obama-care. It’s going to mandate abortions. It’s going to mandate sex change operations.”

She added: “I would make up something that could be the next crazy thing, but everything I could think of that is that crazy has already been actually used by these people.”

(Health reform, Maddow went on to say, is of course not a plot to kill old people.The GOP has claimed it is, pointing to a measure that would cover the cost of making a living will — even though that measure was proposed by a Republican.)

The centerpiece of Maddow’s shot at the so-called healthcare “mobs” was an examination of a Web site promoting protests during the congressional recess through August.

The site — recessrally.com — features a list of sponsoring groups that include familiar names in conservative spheres, such as Michelle Malkin and the Red State blog. But it also includes a number of vaguely-named organizations like “Freedom Works,” “American Majority” and “The Sam Adams Society.”

At time of this writing, recessrally.com and the site that appears to host some of its digital assets — americanlibertytour.com — were offline. In Google’s cache of both sites (1, 2), neither provides image assets and it was not immediately apparent as to why. Recess Rally’s Facebook page illustrates their ties to the tax day tea parties and advertises anti-health protests outside every congressman’s office on August 22.

And just who are behind these groups?

“The executive director of American Majority’s Minnesota office — ko’inky dink — regional field director for Bush-Cheney ‘04,” began Maddow. “Executive director of their Kansas office would be a former Republican state legislator; executive director of their Oklahoma office, a former Washington, D.C. conservative lobbyist — you know, just your average middle-class Americans.”

Another ‘Recess Rally’ sponsor is The Sam Adams Society, run by “the former executive director of the Illinois State Republican Party,” said Maddow. “Sam Adams Alliance is also led by a former Dow Chemicals engineer who’s also president of the nation’s largest conservative state-level policy think tank…”

Finally, and what Maddow called “the most illustrative of all,” is Americans for Prosperity, run by Art Pope.

“Art Pope. Art Pope,” she said. “Why does that name sound familiar? Oh, right! That’s the headquarters of the North Carolina Republican Party. That building is named after Art Pope because Art Pope is a multi-millionaire far-right activist who’s given the Republican Party in North Carolina so much money over the years that they could think of no grander gesture than to name their headquarters building after him.”

After all, they’re just “average, middle-class Americans” much like yourself, Maddow concluded with a smirk.{/quote]

What does it matter what some yahoo called some other yahoo?

I don't know, let's see... Obama is a racist Muslim.

I don't know, let's see...Obama is a racist Muslim.See? You're a Yahoo and we don't care what you say. :)

Interesting new Quinnipiac poll (http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1357)on health care:




August 5, 2009 - Scrap Health Care Reform If It Adds To Deficit, U.S. Voters Tell Quinnipiac University National Poll; Voters Disapprove Of Obama's Handling Of Health Care
American voters, by a 55 - 35 percent margin, are more worried that Congress will spend too much money and add to the deficit than it will not act to overhaul the health care system, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today. By a similar 57 - 37 percent margin, voters say health care reform should be dropped if it adds "significantly" to the deficit.

By a 72 - 21 percent margin, voters do not believe that President Barack Obama will keep his promise to overhaul the health care system without adding to the deficit, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University national poll finds.

American voters disapprove 52 - 39 percent of the way President Obama is handling health care, down from 46 - 42 percent approval July 1, with 60 - 34 percent disapproval from independent voters. Voters say 59 - 36 percent that Congress should not pass health care reform if only Democratic members support it.

Voters are split 39 - 41 percent on whether the President's health care plan will improve or hurt the quality of health care in the nation, with 14 percent saying it won't make a difference.

Only 21 percent of voters say the plan will improve the quality of care they receive, while 36 percent say it will hurt their quality of care and 39 percent say it will make no difference.

"President Barack Obama and Democratic leaders in Congress appear to be losing the public relations war over their plan to revamp the nation's health care system," said Peter A. Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

"Americans are more willing to scrap a health care overhaul than they are to increase the deficit in order to produce such legislation. That's a bad omen for the White House and Congressional leadership as they try to sell their plan to the country this month before the vote counting gets serious on Capitol Hill in September."



There is still strong support for critical elements of the Obama/Democratic plan:

62 - 32 percent in favor of giving people the option of a government insurance plan;
61 - 36 percent for higher taxes on high income earners to pay for health care reform;
60 - 32 percent in favor of insurance subsidies for individuals making up to $43,000 and families of four making up to $88,000;
54 - 38 percent for requiring businesses to provide insurance or pay the government.
Voters oppose 68 - 26 percent requiring people to have health insurance or pay a fine and oppose 68 - 27 percent taxing employees for health care benefits from employers.


Independent voters, perhaps the key voting group, are more worried about the deficit rising than congressional inaction, 54 - 37 percent. These voters say 59 - 36 percent that overhaul should not occur if it would "significantly" increase the deficit. Independents oppose 63 - 33 percent passing a bill with only Democratic votes.

Independent voters also don't think Obama can keep his promise to avoid increasing the deficit and pass health care by an overwhelming 77 - 17 percent.

"The key to this political battle over health care out in the country is independent voters. And that bloc is the key to most elections," Brown added. "These are the voters who broke strongly for the President last November and who were in his corner during the first months of his administration. But on these key health care questions they are siding with critics who question whether health care reform is worth the projected cost."



Support for Obama's handling of health care is down among key groups:

Women disapprove 49 - 41 percent, down from a 48 - 39 percent approval July 1;
Voters 18 to 34 years old disapprove 48 - 44 percent, down from a 54 - 35 percent approval;
Low income voters disapprove 47 - 43 percent, down from a 49 - 37 percent approval.
Since Quinnipiac University's July 1 survey, support for a government-run option has fallen from 69 - 26 percent to 62 - 32 percent and the number who would rather buy insurance from a private rather than public insurer has jumped from 53 - 28 percent to 61 - 25 percent.


"Another indication that opponents of the President's approach have been making points with the voters," said Brown.

From July 27 - August 3, Quinnipiac University surveyed 2,409 registered voters nationwide with a margin of error of +/- 2 percentage points.

The Quinnipiac University Poll, directed by Douglas Schwartz, Ph.D. conducts public opinion surveys in Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Florida, Ohio and the nation as a public service and for research. For more data or RSS feed -

Quinnipiac University Polling Institute - Quinnipiac University – Hamden, Connecticut (http://www.quinnipiac.edu/polling.xml), or call (203) 582-5201.


As I said in the OP, the Dems can't handle the heat. The American people are waking up to the disaster that is Obamacare.

Elliot

As I said in the OP, the Dems can't handle the heat. The American people are waking up to the disaster that is Obamacare.Hello again, El:

I DO agree, that the scare tactics you're using are working... Just like they worked after we were attacked... But, they're not working for the benefit of the country or your neighbor. Just like that crap you did after 9/11 didn't benefit the country or your neighbor.

The right wing is GOOD at politicking... They're just not good at deciding what to politic for or against... They usually get that backwards. This is one of those times.

excon

Well there's more than a nebulous connection elliot:

And I say even if there is so what? Just who the heck do you think the Dems have been in bed with? I already pointed out the AFL-CIO (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/cant-handle-heat-383702-5.html#post1907141), the largest federation of unions in the country is heeding Obama's call to arms (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/cant-handle-heat-383702-2.html#post1904378).

The Service Employees International Union, which donated $61 million for Obama's election effort, is answering HCAN's call to provide "cover" for Democrats (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/07/hot-button-18207779/?feat=home_showcase).

Obama has been ORGANIZING his cult followers to push his agenda from day one of his campaign. People are pushing back "and it's about time (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-w-whitehead/a-little-rebellion-now-an_b_253161.html)."

See? You're a yahoo and we don't care what you say. :)

I don't care that you don't care, my point is a slam dunk.

Steve,
I don't see anyone organizing mobs to disrupt proceedings. But elliot thinks it's truly patriotic to shout someone down so that covers you guys I guess.

I don't care that you don't care, my point is a slam dunk.
Congrats on your internet slam dunk - this must be a happy day for you. :) Aim high.

From the original question:
So answer the question now.

"From tea parties to town hall meetings, the Dems are having to take a bit of their own medicine.

Now the Dems can't handle the heat that THEY created."

I do believe that is the point of the OP.

Congrats on your internet slam dunk - this must be a happy day for you. :) Aim high.

Google news search (http://news.google.com/news?q=obama%20is%20a%20racist&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wn)

Hello again, El:

I DO agree, that the scare tactics you're using are working.... Just like they worked after we were attacked.... But, they're not working for the benefit of the country or your neighbor. Just like that crap you did after 9/11 didn't benefit the country or your neighbor.

The right wing is GOOD at politicking.... They're just not good at deciding what to politic for or against.... They usually get that backwards. This is one of those times.

excon

Well, based on the poll that I posted, it seems to me that most Americans see stopping Obamacare as VERY beneficial. For their wallets and their personal liberties.

Elliot

"From tea parties to town hall meetings, the Dems are having to take a bit of their own medicine.

Now the Dems can't handle the heat that THEY created."

I do believe that is that is the point of the OP.
Ok, you don't care to answer. It's OK, we know why.

Well, based on the poll that I posted, it seems to me that most Americans see stopping Obamacare as VERY beneficial. For their wallets and their personal liberties.

ElliotYou can find any poll that promote your agenda elliot.

Hey look!
Poll: Americans Overwhelmingly Favor Universal Health Care -- Until Taxes Are Mentioned | TPMDC (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/05/poll-americans-overwhelmingly-favor-universal-health-care----until-taxes-are-mentioned.php)

A new CNN poll shows just how tricky the debate over health care really is. People are all for expanded coverage and greater government involvement -- right up until they have to face the tradeoffs.
"In general, would you favor or oppose a program that would increase the federal government's influence over the country's health care system in an attempt to lower costs and provide health care coverage to more Americans?" Americans favor government intervention in the health system by 69%-29%.
"In general, would you favor or oppose a program that would increase the federal government's influence over the health care you and your family receive in an attempt to lower costs and provide health care coverage to more Americans?" When it involves their own care and their families, approval is still high, but a bit lower: 63%-36%.
"Do you think the federal government should guarantee health care for all Americans, or don't you think so?" Americans favor guaranteed health care for all, by a margin of 62%-38%.

Ok, you don't care to answer. It's ok, we know why.

Why would supporters of Obamacare plan on disrupting and shouting down their allies?

Why would supporters of Obamacare plan on disrupting and shouting down their allies?
Why then aren't conservatives having their own vociferous meetings that are for their allies? Because their plan is to disrupt other peoples' meetings that's why.

Ahhhh... but taxes HAVE been mentioned. And even in the CNN poll, once that occurs the numbers go WAAAAAYYYY down.

Americans know that the choice is either higher taxes to cover the cost of a government system or lower services... and likely both.

But also, look at the questions themselves:

In general, would you favor or oppose a program that would increase the federal government's influence over the country's health care system in an attempt to lower costs and provide health care coverage to more Americans?

The problem with this question is that this is not what is being proposed. The costs of health care under HR3200, according to the Congressional Budget Office, would go up, and the number of additional people covered would be minimal, if any. So the question itself is based on a falsehood... not on what is actually being proposed.

The Quinnipiac poll, however, asks questions about THIS SPECIFIC PLAN, and Obama's handling of the issue. It asks whether Americans think that THIS PLAN will be better or worse than what we've got now. The poll is very specific as opposed to asking "what if" questions about something not currently even under consideration.

Sure, you can find polls to support any position. But the key is to find the ones that are ACCURATE and measure the actual issue at hand, not the idealized "what ifs".

Elliot

Why then aren't conservatives having their own vociferous meetings that are for their allies? Because their plan is to disrupt other peoples' meetings that's why.

Seems pretty obvious you don't get the concept of protest.

...and the number of additional people covered would be minimal, if any.. Explain that to me please. How does universal healthcare omit anyone.

Explain that to me please. How does universal healthcare omit anyone.

Explain how the proposed plan is "universal healthcare." In his flop of a presser Obama himself said it would cover 97 percent of the people. Factcheck.org says it will cover far less than that (http://www.factcheck.org/politics/obamas_health_care_news_conference.html).

Ah I see. I can't understand why everyone who pays taxes would not be covered.

Ah I see. I can't understand why everyone who pays taxes would not be covered.

That's not UNIVERSAL health care. Universal health care means everyone is covered REGARDLESS of whether they have paid into the system or not through taxes.

According to the CBO, 36 million people (including illegal aliens and legal citizens) would not be covered. The Heritage foundation believes that this is an understatement of the number that would be without insurance, but the CBO's numbers, since they are from the government, have the imprimature of "officialdom".

In any case, this "universal health plan" would not be universal.

Why would they not be covered? Ask Obama. It's his plan.

Elliot

Why would they not be covered? Ask Obama. It's his plan.

Well I'm asking you because you seem to know all about it.

If somebody is not turned away from a E.R. today isn't that a form a universal heathcare
With the economy
Your credit score will mean less and less
To more and more people
So they will drop paid heath and wait for
Something to happen that sends them to a E.R.

Well I'm asking you because you seem to know all about it.

LOL, even Obama doesn't know all about it and neither does Congress... they haven't READ it.

Here it is from the Thin-skinned One himself, the unbelievable, hypocritical, and yes, anti-American attitude behind the Dems outrage over citizens speaking out against Obamacare... just shut up and get out of the way (http://www.breitbart.tv/obama-dont-want-the-folks-who-created-the-mess-to-do-a-lot-of-talking/).

"But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking." -Barack Obama

LOL, even Obama doesn't know all about it and neither does Congress...they haven't READ it.Hello again, Steve:

You DO know, don't you, that there is no "it"? Once a bill hits the floor, it becomes an "it", and what's in "it" would be fair debate. But, the BILLS floating around have a lot of stuff in them that won't find there way into the final bill, and there's stuff that ISN'T in them that will..

So, let's wait till there's an "it".

excon

Hello again, Steve:

You DO know, don't you, that there is no "it"? Once a bill hits the floor, it becomes an "it", and what's in "it" would be fair debate. But, the BILLS floating around have a lot of stuff in them that won't find there way into the final bill, and there's stuff that ISN'T in them that will..

So, let's wait till there's an "it".

Are you serious? It's no big deal that Congress and the president haven't read what they produced? Why do we EVER discuss bills not in their final form then? Shouldn't a "lawmaker" know what he or she is voting on, and if we wait to object until it reaches the floor for a vote isn't that too late?

Well I'm asking you because you seem to know all about it.

I can't explain why Obama would back a "universal" health care plan that isn't universal. That's his bit of insanity. He'll have to try to explain it.

But he won't. He won't even admit to it.

Elliot

You're full of hate. Hard to have a discussion with you.

You're full of hate. Hard to have a discussion with you.

Not hate. Just a realistic view of him and his goals. He doesn't merit my hate.

You're full of hate. Hard to have a discussion with you.

Have you ever stopped to wonder if maybe, just maybe, accusing others of being "full of hate" is a display of hatred?

Is this what Pelosi and Hoyer meant (http://www.seiu2001.org/Healthcare_Town_Hall_Forum_with_Congressman_Jim_Hi mes.aspx) by un-American (http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/08/unamerican-attacks-cant-derail-health-care-debate-.html)?



Healthcare Town Hall Forum with Congressman Jim Himes
August 06, 2009, 5:30 PM - 7:00 PM

Stamford Senior Center, 888 Washington Blvd. Stamford, CT
Legislative Forum

Purpose: Congressional representatives are coordinating forums on the health insurance crisis around the state for constituents to come share their personal stories and hear proposed solutions being debated in Washington, DC.

Agenda: Congressman Jim Himes (D-4), who has already been hard at work organizing his peers in Washington DC for health insurance reform, will speak and listen to our concerns.

Action: Opponents of reform are organizing counter-demonstrators to speak at this and several congressional town halls on the issue to defend the status quo. It is critical that our members with real, personal stories about the need for access to quality, affordable care come out in strong numbers to drown out their voices.

Just waiting for Pelosi and Hoyer to denounce this un-American astroturfing by the SEIU...

How's this for astro-turfing ? Here are the Obot marching orders from HCAN :

Health Care for America NOW - Steps To Win (http://healthcareforamericanow.org/site/content/steps_to_win/)

And here is Madame Mimi's strategy memo obtained by Connie Hair at Human Events (link here )
Revealed: Pelosi July 31 Strategy Memo - HUMAN EVENTS (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=32987)

hows this for astro-turfing ? Here are the Obot marching orders from HCAN :
Health Care for America NOW - Steps To Win (http://healthcareforamericanow.org/site/content/steps_to_win/)
I went to that site. "Obot"? "Marching orders"? Dude there is something wrong with you if that's what you see there.

"it's important that you take away right-wingers' opportunities to talk with reporters."

"confiscate signs or leaflets"

"Make sure that you assign marshals to take care of moving the crowd."

"it's important that you take away right-wingers' opportunities to talk with reporters."

"confiscate signs or leaflets"

"Make sure that you assign marshals to take care of moving the crowd."
None of that text appears on the Health Care for America site.

None of that text appears on the Health Care for America site.

Nah... it's just in Pelosi's memo. The memo that she never intended to be made public. Did you think she would really post those things online where everyone could see them? Nope... this was all in secret.

Like it or not, Pelosi and her sycophants are EXACTLY the mad mob of anti-free-speech brown-shirts that she accused the protesters on the Right of being. SHE'S the Nazi.

I see. Tom was trying to mislead people again. Quelle surprise.

I see. Tom was trying to mislead people again. Quelle surprise.

No he wasn't. He gave both sites. You only looked at one. YOU are the one misleading others.

No he wasn't. He gave both sites. You only looked at one. YOU are the one misleading others.Try to follow threads you'll understanding things better.

Part one (find the link yourself)

From: Margarida Jorge To: HCAN Field Partners
RE: HCAN—Responding to Right-Wing Attacks in the Field - August 4, 2009
Since early February, we've seen increasing numbers of militant right-wing activists attending public meetings across the country targeting Members of Congress and President Obama. Now in the August recess, the “tea-bagger” protesters and right-wing activists are showing up in larger numbers with a mission to be as disruptive as possible in the hopes of rattling Members of Congress and halting health care reform through pure spectacle and obstruction.
Our response is shaped by 3 things:

Our targets are Members of Congress who must vote “yes” for this bill. Our targets are not the rightwing extremists. The targets of these attacks are Members of Congress. Those Members are also our targets. We need to use these attacks as opportunities to work with the Members in ways that build our relationship in the field and bring us together as allies in health care reform. Members may be more receptive to partnering with us if they know we will help them combat the opposition.
Our core message is effective, and we should always come back to it. Our campaign plan has always anticipated opposition. No matter what the right-wingers bring up to distract the debate, we should always circle back to our key message. We are on the side of quality, affordable health care for everyone, and we are against turning over health care reform to the insurance companies and lobbyists who got us into this mess to begin with. We need to educate the press and the public that the protesters are aligned with the corporate lobbyists and insurance companies who are trying to stop reform.
Our ability to put the extremists into perspective helps us frame our narrative. We should be prepared to respond to the other side, but we don't need to be reactive or feel pressure to answer their accusations point by point. Instead, we should treat them as agents of the insurance lobbyists who want to maintain the status quo. We can dismiss their radical rhetoric by circling back to the basic things that we know most people care about— affordability, access, and quality.
In many cases, protestors will show up at events or meetings you don't organize but are participating in as an attendee or sponsor. You can still influence the outcome of these events or meetings, and it's important for HCAN organizers and leaders to be ready to encounter these protesters in order to make sure that our volunteers and activists respond appropriately as well as capitalize on opportunities to also move our message, work with Members, and educate the public.

Part II


Who are these people?
The people who show up are far right-wing ideologues recruited by paid organizers. Much of this recruitment and organizing is funded by industry lobbyists and public relations firms to engage radical right-wing groups. Many of these groups are motivated by far right ideology in general - not by health care as an issue. They are held together by a common vision of the world that centers on defeating Obama and his agenda. We can expect to see anti-abortion groups, pro-gun groups, insurance company employees (mandated by employers to come out), militia groups, and antiimmigration groups.
What are their goals in turning out disruptive mobs?
Their goal is to stop Obama, influence the media, and scare Members of Congress into thinking that there is more resistance to health care reform than really exists. The attendees are not reflective of the middle or average Republican Party member. Insurance industry lobbyists and public relations firms recruit mostly right-wing extremists who are willing to employ militant tactics in order to demonize Obama by tapping into fear and anger in the electorate. The fear comes from both aggressive communications tactics and rhetoric: anti-tax, anti-abortion, anti-immigration, and other themes that resonate with the farthest right wing of their party.
What is the strategy of the lobbyists and right-wingers who are orchestrating these protests? The most important thing to remember about this type of mobilization is that it is foremost a media strategy, not an organizing strategy. These angry mobs are not trying to persuade Members of Congress or the folks who are attending the event about their point of view. Their goal is to disrupt the event as much as possible in order to:
Prevent our message from getting out.
Scare Members of Congress into silence and submission.
Paint a picture for the media that conveys widespread disapproval for health care reform in order to influence the narrative.
Create as much tension as possible at these events so that the average spectator is completely turned off and disengages totally from this issue.

What can we expect them to do?

They will be loud: They will “Yell, stand up and shout out, and rattle” the Members of Congress. They will be disruptive and not follow the agenda. They won't wait for an opening to speak. They will just interrupt and shout from the minute the event opens until it ends.
They will paint a picture: They will carry a lot of signs. They will have gimmicks and props to get attention from the MOCs and from the media.
They will look bigger than they are: They will spread out and distribute their signs widely. They will also get in front of any TV camera or press people in order to make sure the story that is reported is their story.
They will seek confrontation: The right-wing protesters will foster confrontation at every turn because that's what draws media and distracts the public. They will use any means to do this including abusive language, arrests, props, and physical violence. Be prepared.

How should we prepare to encounter the right wing protesters at MOC events?
Contact friendly MOCs and let them know you are coming to make sure our side is heard and that the event is positive. Provide constructive support for Members of Congress who are holding public events to promote health care reform by turning out constituents and anticipating problems ahead of time. Ask the Member's staff what would be most helpful and talk through a strategy for making sure the right messages don't get drowned out by chaotic protesters.
Inoculate your staff and your volunteers by telling them what to expect and what purpose lies behind the right-wing demonstrations. The more that the attendees know what to expect; the less startled they will be by the irrational tone and militancy of the protesters.
Bring more people than the other side has. Their side will be smaller but noisier. You must bring enough people to drown them out and to cover all our bases so as to marginalize their disruptive tactics. You don't want to get into a screaming match, but it must be obvious to everyone—including press—that you represent the majority.
Arrive earlier than the other side does. We need to stack our folks in the front to create a wall around the Member, and we need to stake out the best spots for visibility and signs. Reconnaissance on the venue and an understanding of the staging will be important here. Make sure you do your homework so you can position your folks most effectively.
Be more visible than the other side. Bring more signs and leaflets, and whenever possible, post your signs all over the place so that you visually out-perform the other side. Make sure you have people holding signs in every place where a TV camera is likely to be and that next to every right wing sign, there's one of your signs with your message.
Have a real plan for the media. Remember, this is a communications strategy that the right wing is using and our goal is to stop them from hijacking and changing the message and tone of these events. Assign 3-5 people to speak with the reporters who attend and make sure the reporters understand the scope and message of the event. If you let the media just report on what they see, they will invariably focus on the mayhem. That is a far juicer story than affordability and the public health insurance option. Don't wait for the reporter to approach you. You must approach the reporters and be assertive in shaping the narrative that they write. Have someone assigned to greeting the media or checking in media as they arrive. That way you will know who they are and be able to work with them both during the event and afterwards. Also, plan to record both the events you attend and the events you organize. TV stations will use amateur footage to round out their stories, and the other side is recording and posting video online. We need to be able to give the press video of successful events too.

How should we interact/what do we say to the other side?
Do not debate on their “policy” points. Remember, they are seeking a platform to distort the truth about reform by making health care about abortion, rationing, euthanasia, etc. Rather than try to reply with the truth (which won't move them anyway) we should respond with our message and at every turn re-focus the agenda on communicating with the Member of Congress.
Interrupt them when they get disruptive and refocus the meeting: Line up a number of people who feel comfortable interrupting and prepare them with statements like:

“Excuse me, I came today to listen to Representative XXX explain how this bill is going to make health care more affordable for me and my family. We're being gouged by insurance companies that just want to make more profits while we struggle to keep up with premiums and co-pays. Representative, how are you going to fix that?”
“I'm retired and can't afford my prescription drugs because I'm on a fixed income. Representative, how is this bill going to affect me?”
“I want to hear the Representative speak. He's the one voting on the bill. Representative, how will this bill help people who already have insurance at work?”
“What I'm worried about is how we're going to keep the insurance companies from continuing to charge people more for being sick and keep them from taking away coverage when we need it most. What's the plan for that?”

Don't get into a shouting match with them. Instead, prep people on our side to keep raising the questions that we want answered. Repetition is the key. We need to arm our side with questions that play to the strength of our message and make sure we keep bringing them up over and over so that the press recognizes those central themes. We should also phrase those questions strategically to help move the message.

“Over the last XX years, insurance company profits have risen XXX %; in this bill you would regulate insurance companies so that they can no longer deny people with pre-existing conditions and would have to play by fair rules. Isn't that right, Representative XX?”
“Isn't it true that this bill would guarantee everyone a choice of public health insurance option that will lower cost overall in the system?”

Address the MOC directly with a positive message: Remember, these Members need cover and they are getting beaten up by right wing zealots in these meetings. We want to let the Member know that we appreciate his efforts to hear constituents and that we, the majority, agree with him.
We should demonstrate that we are the majority by chanting: When the other side gets too loud, we should shut them down with chants that counter their message like “Health Care Can't Wait!” and “Health Care Delayed is Health Care Denied” and prep people to chant at key points when the other side gets most disruptive.
Follow up with the Member one-on-one: This experience may have been trying for your MOC. Make sure that you thank him and that you let him know that the majority is with him. He needs to know that we will provide cover and support him at every turn for his leadership on this issue.

Organizing your own events with a Member of Congress
One advantage to organizing your own Town Hall or public event with Members of Congress is that you will have much more control over the event and limit the other side's opportunities for disruption. Still, you should take precautions to make sure that you can keep meetings you organize under control. Here are some basic tips:
Talk to the Member of Congress ahead of time so that you agree on a format that is comfortable for the Member and that you can troubleshoot roles or concerns that the Member may have about the event. It is important to know how much time the Member will have, when he will arrive, what staff he's bringing, and how many questions he'll answer so that you can anticipate any issues that may arise and can plan your program appropriately.
Know who you are turning out to attend the event. Make sure you turn out a substantial number of people from your base and that everyone signs a sign in sheet upon entering the event. Give everyone name tags so they are easily identifiable. If you want to ensure greater control over turnout, you can ask attendees to rsvp or even issue tickets to the event and require presentation of the ticket at the entrance.
Choose a venue that is difficult for the opposition to access without being noticed. Get to your location early and make sure you set up the venue in a way that ensures that the attendees you want are at the front and that any protesters who come are sequestered as far as possible from the stage. Make sure that you have signs and visuals up and that you adequately understand the layout of your venue so that you know where the entrances are, where the press will be positioned, where your speakers will be, etc.
Select a strong moderator to move the agenda in a disciplined way. Make sure you select someone who is comfortable interrupting rowdy protesters, who can command the attention of the room, and who understands how to de-escalate tensions and re-direct people to the agenda.
Lay out goals for the meeting and establish ground rules for conduct in the meeting at the beginning of the event. Among these ground rules should be a protocol for asking questions. One way to do this is to ask people to submit questions ahead of time on cards, to permit only one question at a time, and to limit the topic of questions.
Plan for disturbances and assign marshals. Make sure that you assign marshals to take care of moving the crowd, keeping people organized and orderly, and acting as security should any need arise to ask noisy or disruptive protesters to leave. If you have cause to think that you will need more back-up, notify the police ahead of time.
Collect signs and leaflets that are not provided by you or your organization. Another way to limit protesters' ability to hijack your event is to confiscate signs or leaflets that they may bring into the venue from outside. The best way to do this is to make a blanket rule that no one can bring signs or leaflets and to advertise this fact as you do turn out in the weeks preceding the event. You can distribute your own signs in the event and offer them one as they enter if you choose to allow them to enter.
Assign people to greet the media and to stay close to reporters both as they enter and leave the event. It's important that you take away right-wingers opportunities to talk with reporters by making sure that your staff or leaders are in constant contact with the media who attend. You should set up a special table or area for the press to sit during the event and that area should be close t the stage and away from any areas of the venue where protesters may gather. Also make sure you have materials ready for the reporters so that they know the purpose and message of the event.

The SEIU chapter scrubbed their site of the "drown out" comment. I guess they realized it was tough to use when that's exactly what Pelosi and Hoyer called un-American.

Hello again, Steve:

I don't remember you're being so up in arms when people like me were being accused of being UN American when I didn't go along with the war, the detention, the spying, and any other the's I can think of...

Nor, do I remember you correcting Sarah Palin when she told those little red neck audiences that she finally was in REAL America...

Nope, I don't remember it at all...

I also don't see you putting down Glen Beck or the Limp one for using the Nazi stuff... Or suggesting that Pelosi should be POISONED...

Nope, I don't see ANY of that stuff coming from your side... Besides, I thought you were the TOUGH guys. No??

excon

I don't remember you're being so up in arms when people like me were being accused of being UN American when I didn't go along with the war, the detention, the spying, and any other the's I can think of...

I don't recall you being called un-American for such things, but a) I support your right to express your opinion and don't consider that un-American and b) I figure if nothing else you can handle it pretty well yourself.


Nor, do I remember you correcting Sarah Palin when she told those little red neck audiences that she finally was in REAL America...

I believe Sarah apologized for that remark. Still waiting on Pelosi, Hoyer and every other ELECTED leader that has disparaged Americans in the last week to apologize.


I also don't see you putting down Glen Beck or the Limp one for using the Nazi stuff... Or suggesting that Pelosi should be POISONED...

You'd have to be more specific.


Nope, I don't see ANY of that stuff coming from your side... Besides, I thought you were the TOUGH guys. No??

What does TOUGH have to do with it?

You'd have to be more specific.Hello again, Steve:

Well, I was checking out the haps at Fox when I came upon Glen Beck drinking a glass of wine with another glass sitting there. He was pretending that he was sipping Cabernet with Speaker Pelosi... He invited her to take a drink... Then he said he POISONED it...

Did he suggest that somebody poison her?? Maybe.

And, if you haven't been listening to the drugged out limp one for the past two days, you missed the Nazi name calling... But, I didn't... If you want to hear some Nazi name calling, just check out the Wolverines stuff, AND HE'S A JEW!

Soooo, I'm not going to get too upset about Madame Speaker saying somebody is UN American... I don't AGREE with her, but in the context of the general conversation, it's pretty MILD.

What does being tough have to do with it?? I thought tough meant thicker skin... Guess not.

excon

Oh, did I offend your sensibilities, Excon?

I didn't hear you make any comments when Pelosi accused people on the right of toting around swastikas.

But if I should, G-d forbid, call her a Nazi after she is caught with a memo specifically CALLING for her goon squads to "take away right-wingers' opportunities to talk with reporters", "confiscate signs or leaflets" and "Make sure that you assign marshals to take care of moving the crowd." Despite the fact that those are Nazi-era strong-arm tactics, and despite the fact that she called people on the other side Nazis, you have a problem with her having to take the same treatment she dishes out.

The fact that she called OTHERS Nazis is sheer hypocrisy on her part.

The fact that you make no comment when she does it, but jump on me when I do it is hypocrisy on YOUR part.

So if your sensibilities are offended, excon, I'm afraid that you're just going to have to deal with it. Fair's fair. What's good for the Speaker is good for me too.

Elliot

Oh, did I offend your sensibilities, Excon?

I didn't hear you make any comments when Pelosi accused people on the right of toting around swastikas. Hello Elliot:

Here's the part you don't understand... The comparison between the Speaker of the House of Representatives, because of what she says, to the people who murdered 6 million of us, is deeply flawed. It DIMINISHES what those murdering bastards did to your family and mine.

As a Jew, and a deeply devoted one, I can't believe that you'd so callously throw around that phrase... But, you NEVER cease to surprise me.

excon

My skin's plenty thick for a sniveling weasel like Pelosi to call me un-American. That doesn't make it right. The leader of the House of Representatives needs to act like a representative, not someone declaring war on the people she represents.

Hello Elliot:

Here's the part you don't understand... The comparison between the Speaker of the House of Representatives, because of what she says, to the people who murdered 6 million of us, is deeply flawed. It DIMINISHES what those murdering bastards did to your family and mine.

As a Jew, and a deeply devoted one, I can't believe that you'd so callously throw around that phrase... But, you NEVER cease to surprise me.

excon

Oh, there was nothing callous about my usage of the phrase. I've studied the way the Nazis did what they did.

Pelosi's power trip from the day she became Speaker has been a perfect example of Nazism as practiced by most of the tin-dictators of the SS. And her attempt to get people who disagree with her to shut up through the use of both marginalization tactics and now strong-arm tactics is right out of the handbook of Joseph Goebbels.

There was absolutely NOTHING callous about my usage of the term Nazi. It was a very deliberate, educated and well-contemplated usage of the term.

Elliot

It was a very deliberate, educated and well-contemplated usage of the term.Actually the calling of people nazis is the domain of the uneducated i.e they have no argument. It's commonly referered to as Godwin's Law:

Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is a humorous observation coined by Mike Godwin in 1990, and which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the widespread reductio ad Hitlerum form. The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases as the discussion progresses. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued, that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself) than others invented later. For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress.

Actually the calling of people nazis is the domain of the uneducated i.e they have no argument. It's commonly referered to as Godwin's Law:

Yeah, I've heard of Godwin's Law. Godwin was wrong, though. You see, there are indeed plenty of times when comparisons to Hitler are very apt and appropriate. Godwin just didn't like having to face that reality. He liked a nice, neat little world where everyone was sweetness and light, and nobody lied, committed acts of violence, or had ulterior motives in their actions. Unfortunately, the world isn't the Utopia he wishes it were, and people do commit acts of evil and depravity that compare aptly to actions taken by Hitler and the Nazis.

Also, if Godwin was right, shouldn't his "law" have been applied first to Pelosi's comments about opponents of the health care bill carrying swastikas, thus comparing them to Nazis?

But of course you only apply these rules to me, not her. Which just proves the fallacy of Godwin's law. It seems that it is only selectively applied, which makes it somewhat more of a "guideline" or a "suggestion" than a "law".

Then there's the The Big Lie: tell a big enough lie enough times, and people will eventually start to believe it, even in the face of evidence to the contrary... another tactic of Hitler's listed in Mein Kampf and practiced by Joseph Goebbels. If Pelosi tells enough people that her opponents are carrying swastikas, people will believe it eventually, even though there is video evidence that proves her claim false. She truly does use the tactics of the Nazis.

Elliot

Another point on Godwin's Law:

"Although deliberately framed as if it were a law of nature or of mathematics, its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler or to Nazis to think a bit harder about the Holocaust."

--- Mike Godwin 4/30/08

I Seem To Be A Verb: 18 Years of Godwin's Law | Jewcy.com (http://www.jewcy.com/post/i_seem_be_verb_18_years_godwins_law)

He never intended there to never be apt comparisons to Hitler and the Nazis. What he had trouble with was INAPT or INAPPROPRIATE comparisons made without deliberation or understanding.

That was NOT the case in my usage of the term. It was, as I said, deliberate, educated, and well-contemplated. It was also apt.

Then there's the The Big Lie: tell a big enough lie enough times, and people will eventually start to believe it, even in the face of evidence to the contrary... That's the Republican mantra! Ever watched Fox News?

That's the Republican mantra! Ever watched Fox News?

Yep. Most days of the week. Haven't caught them in a lie yet.

I notice, though, that you've dropped your idiotic invocation of Godwin's Law.

Good for you.

Actually the calling of people nazis is the domain of the uneducated i.e they have no argument. It's commonly referered to as Godwin's Law:

Ah, so Pelosi is uneducated, she has no argument. I agree with that assessment.

Yep. Most days of the week. Haven't caught them in a lie yet.

I notice, though, that you've dropped your idiotic invocation of Godwin's Law.

Good for you.
I love the way you call people nazis, idiotic, insane, etc and you consider yourself some kind of devout religious type.

I love the way you call people nazis, idiotic, insane, etc and you consider yourself some kind of devout religious type.

I don't consider myself anything. I do consider Pelosi's actions to be reminiscent of Nazi behaviors.

And I don't see you arguing that fact. You don't seem capable of defending her actions as anything OTHER than Nazism.

Checkmate.

Elliot

You are a big funny man. LOL!

You are a big funny man. LOL!

One of us has to be, and it ain't you.

I know. I'm a fit realist who likes my fellow man.

I know. I'm a fit realist who likes my fellow man.

No, I'M a realist. You're a Utopian socialist who believes that everything your government does is in your best interests.

And I like my fellow man too. That's why I want the government to stay out of his life just like I want it to stay out of mine.

I guess it's because we live in different countries and my governemnt is not owned by corporate interests. You keep on living in fear of everything, I don't have to - I guess that's our biggest difference.

Yeah... your politicians are as pure as the driven snow. No corporate interests in government in Canada.

Crown Corporations and Other Corporate Interests of Canada 2006 - Part 4 of 58 (http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/report/crown/06/cs-se03-eng.asp)

No lobbying groups either.

http://www.sources.com/listings/Subscribers/L943.htm
http://www.sources.com/listings/Subscribers/L89.htm
http://www.sources.com/listings/Subscribers/L3378.htm
http://www.sources.com/listings/Subscribers/L378.htm
http://www.sources.com/listings/Subscribers/L1718.htm

I could go on and list hundreds more lobbying groups and corporate interest organizations and PACs. But I think you get my point.

Elliot

LOL! I don't think you understand what you linked to... or what a crown corp is.

You said that your government isn't involved in corporate interests and doesn't have to deal with lobbying groups.

These links have proven that no only is the government involved in corporate interests, it actually OWNS those corporate interests and therefore makes laws that are in the best interests of those corporate interests, whether it helps individuals or other businesses or not.

Nor is your government so free of lobbyist and PAC involvement as you would have us believe. Again, as proven by those links.

Your "pure as the driven snow" government is up to it's eyeballs in corporate interests and lobbyists.

Which means that they ain't acting in YOUR best interests.

But I'm sure that you still trust them COMPLETELY to make decisions for you.

Elliot

You still don't get it. Yes, the gov owns some crown corp (that's what "crown" means) so they get to fully audit them and post their results.

You can read more about lobbying here: Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada - Lobbying Act, Regulations and Code of Conduct (http://www.ocl-cal.gc.ca/eic/site/lobbyist-lobbyiste1.nsf/eng/h_nx00269.html)

If you have corporations owned by the government, then the government makes decisions that benefit that corporation, not you.

If the government has lobbyists, it caters to those lobbyists. (If they diodn't the lobbying groups would cease to exist due to lack of effectiveness.) Therefore your government isd making decisions based on Lobbying groups' best interests, not yours.

Elliot

The former philanderer-in-chief is calling on the astroturf (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26100.html) to rescue Obama...


Former President Bill Clinton told an audience of liberal online activists Thursday evening that the nation has “entered a new era of progressive politics” that could last for decades if Democrats can pass ambitious measures such as health care reform and climate change.

In a nearly hour-long keynote address to the fourth annual Netroots Nation convention in Pittsburgh, a gathering of roughly 1,500 progressive bloggers and activists, Clinton said the nation—and public opinion—has dramatically changed in the 16 years since he took office. But he noted that President Barack Obama and the Democratic-controlled Congress needed the support of the online community to achieve their agenda.

“We have entered a new era of progressive politics which, if we do it right, can last 30 or 40 years,” Clinton said. “America has rapidly moved to another place on a lot of these issues.”

“The president needs your help,” he said, “and the cause needs your help.”

This is going to get even uglier...

Now THIS (http://pol.moveon.org/lte/lte_t.html?zip=56301-4498&lte_campaign_id=116) is astroturfing, or as one blogger calls it, organizing to send "astroletters." MoveOn has supplied all the talking points, writing tips and a choice of newspapers.


* We can't afford to wait for reform: Each day, 14,000 people in the U.S. lose their health care coverage. And without reform, those who still have insurance will see their yearly premiums go up by $9,000 in the next decade—to a staggering $22,000.

* Reform with a real public option is key to expanding coverage: Under current legislation, which includes a strong public health insurance option, 37 million Americans will gain coverage by 2019.

* A real public health insurance option is crucial to lowering costs: With premiums projected to hit $22,000, we need to get costs down. By spurring competition, a public plan will help bring down out-of-control costs for individuals, families, and small businesses.

If you have trouble writing your own letter to the editor all you have to do is copy and paste the talking points and they'll do the rest.

It just keeps getting better. This week, protesters and disruptors are "un-American" to Madame Pelosi. Thanks to a flashback from Breitbart (http://www.breitbart.tv/06-flashback-pelosi-tells-anti-war-protesters-im-a-fan-of-disruptors/) we can hear how she was "a fan of disruptors" back in 2006... even when she's the one being disrupted. It takes a special person to be able to stand in front of the American people and not care which face she's showing.

* We can't afford to wait for reform: Each day, 14,000 people in the U.S. lose their health care coverage.


Doesn't that have something to do with the number of people losing their jobs? And wouldn't that economic reality be a finction of Obama's stimulus bill's ineffectiveness?

Also: How many people are getting back on insurance plans every day?

Just wondering.