How can I tell if I really have footings under columns on a concrete front porch I have? The Columns are on top of the concrete so the footings should be under the concrete normal pad, right?

The columns are brick and on top of the concrete patio. I have cracks in the patio and we think we have footings, but not sure. The concrete is 4" think so would a footing be under that?

The columns support the covered patio. They normally are just wood, but we opted for brick. Attached is a pic

Its impossible to tell if there is a footing there aside from breaking up the Crete and digging.

One sure sign there is a footing there is to see if you have expansion joints around that Pier. The floor floats and the footer doesn't

There is also a possibility that the floor was poured at 4" thick and it was dug out in the columns areas deeper and poured as a Monolith pour.

You can check to see if the column goes through the floor by grinding out the first joint to see if a separate pour was there and expansion joints weren't used. Aside from that the floor needs removed to dig around the column

Your pic just showed up. No worries to check here just dig in the yard and see if there is a block wall under the piers, which they should be on a footer

Editing here instead of new post

Not sure what your Geo is for frost and freeze. I'm at 18" for a frost footer and 36" for a freeze footer. A freeze footer should be there if the columns are structrial or not. You don't want them to freeze and lift into the soffit and tear that up

The columns are for sure on top of the concrete. I know I saw them placed after the concrete was poured. I did not see anything else done when they poured it besides place the 4" boards around it. Here's a pic of the fresh concrete.. does this prove or disprove footings?

The floor could be poured over a footer and or block wall which is how that should have been built if it freezes there.

Now seeing the pic the roof is cantilevered which helps a lot here. But were still back to freeze lift and or sinking

I know that last pic is bad.. these are zoomed in pics, but you can clearly see where the middle column would have been as opposed to the corner one. So it sounds like if I did down 6" (patio is about 4" thick) and then go under that would probably prove no footings.

Yes

I'm in Oklahoma.. it freezes here for sure :)

Zippit.
I believe what you may see in the sinking here is the concrete slope for runoff which should be min 1/4" per lineal foot and it may be a compound runoff which would look at a certain angle sinking. Can't see a pic of how big the cracks are mentioned here and at what angels

Scp dig down and I'm betting you haven't any footer there. Hope I'm wrong. Also check with the building inspector on the depth a footer needs to be in your geo. All but one column could and is considered a bearing point to carry the cantilever off that outside corner or at least it should at the width you have there. Again it up to the code officer to determine this. This looks like a new house what's the print show for there?

21boat and zippit.. thanks for the quick feedback.. here is the crack.. concrete poured in late April 08.. crack current pic last month

It is a new house.. working with builder on it. Quick inspection thought it has a footer, but I think perhaps concrete outside the footings may have been what was hit. Builder has been very good to me, but I think the previous super missed perhaps doing this the right way.

Here's another building tip Ive been using for years. I use 1/2" expansion joints along the house walls and then drill rebar into the brick. What this does is that area acts like a footer and yet it has room to expand and contract to help chase away to cracks. Think of it like a knuckle joint or how a bridge is built when you see the steel fingers going the bridge to the road in areas where the bridge expands and contracts more. The expansion gives room for movement and the rebar structurally hangs the Crete. It's a pinning effect. Now that I see the pic The corner column I mentioned on the corner is the structural link here. Zippit was spot on there. Good Eyes Zippit

21 boat / zippit.. good advice. The patio is 12 x 26 and being that big I expected some sort of cut or expansion joint, but they did not do that. I have the big crack (as shown) hairline from corner to middle post and a 3rd little one. If I can get this redone they I will talk more to understand how an expansion joint (or at least a cut) might be built into it. I know concrete cracks, but this seems to be bigger than that. Again builder has been good to me, just needed to advice from other to get another perspective.. thanks for all the feedback.. wish me luck.. I'll dig in the next couple days for sure

Hi zippit The rod poke is to find the drain field that is always wetter then the regular ground. Could work after a heavy spring rains. Or you hit some rocks and think footer. Could work here fresh backfill.. My brother in law lives in Oak and during the summer time the ground pulls away from the foundation an 1" or so.. Strange dirt.

I agree on the total re do. Bad building practices

Here's a pic of the corner. I don't think I have a footer at all. I can slide the shovel under the center of the column under the concrete. Not a lot, but just does not seem one is present.

What was done there was a bad attempt to Pour a monolith floor and footer at the same time. The part they missed was the Pier needed a wider footer to actually be a footer to spread the weight out and not use the floor to absorb/ what the footer should have carried. That's how the cracks showed up so quick, Its not a deep as I thought it would be, Its supposed to be below freeze. The shovel area is what the footer size should have been here.

A patio of that size at the least should have a frost footer under the front and sides, My job would have a full footer under it being where it sits

21 boat.. (or anyone else) the builder feels the crack is due to expansive soils and not the brick columns. I was told the footers were placed after the columns were put up and that is OK. I am also told that it is okay to have the columns on top of the concrete as long a footer is present (even though the two houses next to me have brick columns and they were done first and then concrete around them unlike mine). You have been a great help here are my questions:
1) I need to get a second opinion to have someone else look at these footers to see if they feel they were done right. My thought is that they may be there, but not a job well done and therefore are suspect and contributed to the large crack. Should I get another concrete guy out here to look at it or who it best to review it?
2) In your experience do you agree a brick column can be placed on concrete surface with out impacting the concrete if a footer was done under the brick column
3) Is a footer done after (digging under then pouring concrete) a normal building practice?

Thanks...

I just reread some of the old posts. 21boat said at one point "There is also a possibility that the floor was poured at 4" thick and it was dug out in the columns areas deeper and poured as a Monolith pour. ". So he already answersed my question.. for some reason the builder feels that corner one is a good footer, but sounds like it should have been wide outside the patio.. the center column is wide outside the column, but again.. who knows how deep it really is.. I just need to get an opinion of someone else to see if they agree or disagree with my builder. Always good to get a second opinion.. I know this is an old post, but still a problem I'm dealing with.. :(

Hi Scpok. The whole situation there is a bad building practice. Correct building practices is, if you have a concrete slab that's attached to a house, ( especially if there's masonry piers ) There needs to be a real footer. It was built like its only a sidewalk. This is what fouled up not wrapping the brain around the proper building practice and not treating it as a Porch. Doesn't matter weather the roof supports itself or not. It's a Porch not a sidewalk. The other problem here is on a new built home the ground HAS to be mechanically tamped as back fill was done where the porch was poured.

Even if the builder poured the porch as a monolith pour the footer under that brick Pier is not big enough to make a difference.. So that in itself combined with fresh backfill and brick weight and this is why you are in that position.

Also the proper way Always is to Build the brick Pier Separate for the simple reason when the Crete needs replaced in time the Pier maintains it location and a lot of work and money is saved. Add to that to Buy brick 20 years down the road to relay the Pier may no be made anymore OR will not Match. Even if it the mortar to relay it won't match the weathered mortar joints on the house. So hears Many reasons I say the proper building practice is the Piers HAS to be a solid free standing Pier.

Look up some good Crete finishers and they will also tell you the Pier should be on its own footer and not on top of the porch floor. A good mason will Also tell you the same thing.

(1) Yes
(2) Yes Crete finisher and mason
(3) Not exactly sure of the question. All footers are done before anything is built on top of it unless it's a monolith pour/ a Frost footer.

Wrap your head around this is a Porch not a side walk. And it was a raised porch a footer and block/brickwork would be laid on top of the footer then the floor poured.

Get 3 write up bids from a Crete contractor ans 3 from a mason contractor.

Keep posting here , We see it has a new post on our end..

Would it be better to get a structural engineer to look at this or would a normal home inspector be able to review and provide the feedback I need to get a good second opinion on this. I will also look up some other concrete and masons to see if I can get a quote and feedback from them. I need someone who would be willing to put something in writing for me they feel this was done wrong so I have something more than just my thoughts vs. the builder.

A structural engineered will be expensive and may look like overkill. They always have a "tweak" opinion. But we do need there expertises.

Check with the building codes first. Also check with the approved blueprints that the builder went by. Many times something like this is Not detailed in a house print and can get missed with what the township/city requirements are in detailing to approve the specks/print

A structure engineer is basically going to say the same thing I said.

Your biggest argument is the depth/width of the Crete under the pier. Since it freezes there that needs to be below freeze line since it "attached" to the structural and or used accordingly for roof overhang support.

This is another way to classify what the pier function is and put it in the category of needing a full below grade footer. It's a way of working it from the back door.

This takes out the equation of weather it's a wide enough clump of Crete to hold that end of the porch. So hears the attack.
1. Check prints on design specks and see if it was built accordingly
2. Check your warranty of the build
4. Check required depths for footers on a structural columns and piers at your local building codes for STRUCTURAL support. It vertical and attached to help support the porch ceiling. Or why have it...
4. Get 6 bids, 3 from a mason contractor, 3 from a concrete contractor along with a rough drawing on how its needs fixed and the scope of the work needing done to do make it right, Or a very detailed writ.
4. Engineers report
5. Attorney/small claims. Many times if you have paper proving the work was substandard one letter form an attorney works. But try to keep it more on a personal level.

Where is the warranty that supposed to kick in here. Another word of advice. Write a letter describing your problem and send it certified. This will get better attention of the seriousness here and the biggest thing is it will document the problem in writing and keep the hear say out of the picture. I actually request that on my warranties so I can address it properly and all is in sync A different punch list. I find my customers are happy to do it and already feel the builder cares..

Hope it goes well Let me Know how you make out...