Hi,

I live in about a 30 yr old home. I believe that the A/C and the furnace are the original. The furnace still works but the AC stopped working. In an attempt to educate myself about current options, it became somewhat clear that given the age of the furnace, it may be a good thing to change it along with the A/C.

The house is a split level, slightly under 3000 sq feet, which includes the finished basement. I live in the Midwest, winters are cold and long but summers are short and not as hot as the South.

Given the rebates and tax breaks at this point, it seems that the price of 80%-90% efficiency system is not much lower than the high efficiency versions.

I have one general question about the durability and frequency of repairs in high efficiency versions (with all the bells and whistles)- since they have many more components (moving parts and sensors) and generally more complex, do they fail more often than their simpler counterparts?

I have received the following estimates.

Goodman: GMV95 (90,000 BTU 95% efficient) + SSX14 3 Ton 14 SEER; price $5683

Coleman: CP9C (80,000 BTU, 97.5% efficient) + CCJF 3 Ton 14.5 SEER; price $5542

Rheem: RGFD (90,000 BTU, 95% efficient) + RANL 3 Ton 13 SEER; price $6010

Armstrong G2D95080 (80,000 BTU 95% efficient) + 4SCVLE30 3 Ton 15 SEER; price $5000

Carrier 58MVC (80,000BTU 95% efficient) + 24ANA7 3 Ton 15 SEER; price $5500

All businesses are giving 10 yrs parts warranty. Some give 10 others 5 years on labor. Carrier will cost additional $311 for warranty.

I need some guidance between several brands as to which may be better in the long-run (trouble-free) and would run quieter. Of the combination listed above, which would be a better option for money and service.

Thank you in advance for your help.

It is all a mater of opinion and who pays the bills for most contractors. Some will say one is as good as another...
On a personal note I would go with the carrier! I would never instal a coleman or armstrong.

Make sure you qualify for the tax rebate and understand how it works. Not all units qualify. And it has to be a certain furnace, evaporator coil, and condensing unit. And its up to $1500. That dollar amount is not a garuntee. Talk to a taxman if you have real questions about that. Most contractors do not know the answers.

Thank you siberianair. I will make sure about their claims about tax breaks.

Since making this post and doing many on-line searches, I have narrowed the selection to two options:

Armstrong

Carrier Infinity

The combination listed in my original post included a 2 stage A/C in case of Carrier but a simpler A/C in the case of Armstrong, hence the difference in price.

The business that sells Armstrong also sells Carrier and his estimate is slightly higher (+$300) than the Carrier estimate listed here. According to this business, Armstrong furnace is better; it has both heat exchangers made of stainless steel as opposed to only 1 from Carrier.

The Armstrong estimate people have been in business for over 20 years so I am somewhat inclined to use them, even for Carrier, should I go with it.

Please elaborate on your strong disapproval for Armstrong.

I have also learned that Carrier has had a class action suite against them for frequent failures due to design flaws in their high efficiency furnaces that were not fixed.

Since this is my first experience in dealing with this purchase/installation, it is tricky for me to decide without some degree of reliance on information from other people's experience. Since these things need replacements so infrequently (my current system is 30+ years old), it is hard to imagine to get too much first hand experience; perhaps twice in one's life and the time gap will always be so long that technological jump will be phenomenal.

Perhaps someone who is in a business of repairs/installations could provide more useful guideline.

Thank you.

Actually the lawsuite you are referring to is bogus. The problem is with the installing companies themselves. There are guidelines for making instals proper andsetting up the unit. A lot of the problems are the simple fact that instalers do not instal them correctly or follow the proper channels for intalling them.

30 years is a long time for a unit. In my area of the world the average for a unit is 14 to 17 years.

As for armstrong. They just are not of the caliber that trane or carrier are. If you go with the carrier get the upgraded 10 year labor and parts warranty. Should be about $400 dollars if the dealer does not upsell the price on it.

Also make sure they understand the infinity system and controls. They are very tricky. And if set up wrong you might not be satisfied with the system.

Armstrong makes a fine unit. Some are afraid of them since they are not as popular as Carrier or other brands. Back in 1980 my company did a complete burner change over on there assembly line here in Ohio. At the time they were called the Armstrong/Magic Chef Company. There were 5 burners on the paint line that had to go multi fuel as in Oil or Gas or LP Gas. This way they could choose which fuel was the most economical to use at any given time. At the time I visited the assembly lines for there products and all looked very professional. They were shut down for this change over but to the trained eye you could tell they were using quality components and proper assembly methods.

In this area the largest HVAC dealer sells Armstrong almost exclusively for the past 30 years and have great luck with the product. I have known this dealer for over 30 years and we talk almost every week about the business.

Coleman is a huge brand and is under the York umbrella of 5 HVAC company’s so it is also a good machine.
Goodman is also good and does its job with a minimum of fuss.

What really matters is that the company doing the install really knows what they are doing. The best equipment can be turned to junk by a poor install and the cheaper equipment will run trouble free for a long time when installed properly. I have included a little list here to help you make your decision on the contractor of choice.

The Infinity control is absolutely fantastic. Simple for the installer to set up.

siberianair,

Thank you for the additional information and your thoughts. It seems that there are conflicting notions about the reliability information but from the information provided by you and others, it is becoming clear that properly performed installation may be as important, if not more, as the choice of the brand. Of course, simply stating that law-suits are bogus, seems a little less comforting to someone who knows very little! ;)

hvac1000,

Thank you for very useful information. Realizing that choosing the right contractor is important, I have already started looking into avenues to gather more information on our local suppliers and services. One of the obvious criterion is the duration for which they have survived in the community- I and deliberately using the term survive because I am going with the obvious assumption that if they are substantially under the par, they would have been out of business. So far, I have two of them who have been around for more than 20 years and both sell Armstrong and Carrier. One of them is giving more emphasis to Armstrong. Are dealer margins of profit better in one versus the other? I would like to make an honest assessment of quality which is not skewed by our local supplier's profit interests.

KeepItSimpleStupid,

Thank you. Implicit in your praise of the thermostat, albeit with bells and whistles, I assume is the suggestion that I should go with Carrier (unless their control works with other brands?). ;)

Thank you everyone, once again. Please post any and all after thoughts. I will keep an eye on this thread.

The Carrier Infinity control works ONLY on Carrier Infinity series furnaces. Bryant also has a similar control. Bryant is a lower tier model. The control runs the blower at high speed every day at 1 pm to test the filter media. The system otherwise is quiet. This is also the time to evaluate what kind of filter you need. Check out Honeywell and Aprilaire.

Are dealer margins of profit better in one versus the other? I would like to make an honest assessment of quality which is not skewed by our local supplier's profit interests.

Usually the margin is set on the overall cost basis of the entire job. Labor is one of the larger factors. Men who know more earn more and rightly so. If one company has a bunch of idiots working for them at 9.00 per hour and another company pays there employees 15-20 dollars per hour this can make a big difference in the overall cost AND Quality of the job. From here there is no way I can tell what is the markup on materials only. Follow the guide I provided as a self defense model so to speak.

I would like to provide some of the contractors cost/overhead so you can see that when it is all said and done most contractors do not make a KILLING as most consumers think they do.


As to mark up or costs of business, keep in mind a quality contractor that will be there for you when you need him may have some or all of the following business expenses:

Not limited to;

401K
Coffee
Health Insurance
Holiday Pay
Office Benefits
Sick Pay
Uniforms
Vacation Pay
Air Conditioning Equipment Maintenance
Building Repairs
Cleaning Service
Electric Utilities
Facility Mortgage Payments
Furniture
Gas/Oil Bill
Landscaping
Office Rent
Parts Storage Racks
Security System
Shop Tools
Callbacks
Miscellaneous Hardware
Air Conditioning License
Answering Service
Bad Debt
Business Licenses
Cash Reserves
Certification Tests
Chamber of Commerce Dues
Collections
Company Picnic
Dealer Meetings
Employment Testing
Help Wanted Advertising
Interest Expense
Internet Access
Inventory
Inventory Shrinkage
Invoices
Legal Services
Liability Insurance
Management Training
Mobile Phone Charges
Mobile Phones
Office Training
Pagers
Property Insurance
Recycling
Subscriptions
Tax preparation
Technician Training
Trade Association Membership
Brochures
Charitable Contributions
Customer Satisfaction Surveys
Door Hangers
Home And Garden Shows
Magnets
Newsletter
Newspaper Advertising
Other Advertising
Outdoor Advertising
Patches
Radio Advertising
Sales Commissions
Warranties
Website
Yellow Pages
Youth Sports Team Sponsorships
Accounting
Calculators And Adding Machines
Computer System Maintenance
Computers
Copier
Copies
Fax Machine
Files And File Cabinets
Network
Office Supplies
Phone Bill
Phone System
Postage
Postal Equipment
Printing
Software
Stamps And Pads
Telephone Bill
Telephone Equipment
Training Equipment
Trash And Disposal
Water Bill
Call Taker
Dispatcher
Employee Incentives
Employee Pay
Management
Office Staff
Receptionist
Technician Pay
Federal Taxes
Local School Taxes
Local Taxes
Municipal Property Tax
Other property Taxes
Sales Tax
Social Security Taxes
State Taxes
Unemployment Insurance
Worker's Comp
Gasoline
Ladders
Radios
Tires
Tools
Truck Decals
Truck Depreciation
Truck Insurance
Truck Inventory
Truck Ladder Racks
Truck Maintenance
Truck Shelves
Trucks
Profit
Tool Insurance
Truck Plates
Life Insurance
Equipment Insurance
Warranty Expenses
Code updates
Other trade book updates
Permits
Dental / Vision Insurance
Equipment Consumables
Inventory Tax
Research & Development

hvac1000,

Thank you. I am adequately convinced with the first argument of better trained personnel; I suppose the exhaustive list of various coverage/expenses was not quite so necessary as it is something most decent employers who wish to retain good workers, naturally tend to do. :)

I think this afternoon I am signing a contract with a company with 25+ years of experience, which installs Armstrong as well as Carrier... in other words, I have a few more hours to go one way or the other. :)

Thank you everyone, you have been most gracious and helpful.

See you in another 20-30 years, I hope! :) :D

I mentioned all those items because many people have no idea what it costs to operate a business and in many cases they think the priice of there service provided it too much money. LOL Good luck with your choice.