Ok.

We are in Iraq, Iran will possibly have nuclear weapons within the next two years, and it is possible N Korea could be fairly close if not already there. We are distracted in Iraq, so what do we do?

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT CUT AND RUN OR BUSH'S POLICY ON IRAQ OR Whether IT IS AN ILLEGAL WAR! Instead I want to hear what you think about what can be done with the current situation we HAVE to live with.

Let's step back one second - what is it assumed that N. Korea will use its weapons on the US?

In all seriousness, do they not teach about the korean war in Canada? No need to step-back because it is widely known they hate us. We know this through their rhetoric, they hate us because of all the sanctions that we have imposed on them, they hate us because of the war, they hate us because America is one of the most advanced Democracies in the world and we don't like it when people take upon themselves the title of dictator supreme which and deprive their people of human rights such as eating, which is exactly what they have done.

However, whether they want to launch nukes at us is not the point. The point is that they would be even more inclined to sell their nukes to Osama, Hezzbolah, and other terrorist organizations because their country is practically bankrupt (they already would be if it weren't for their supernotes).

Korean war? 50+ years ago? You don't think things change in 50 years?
And the USA is a republic not a democracy. Do you hate all communists because they are communists? Same with socialists? Same with liberals.


Well you seem to have your mind set anyway, no use in me posting here.

Have a great day!

North Koreans hate us because of their isolation. They are brought up to hate us so they do!

North Korea in all probability will not use nuclear weapons on North America. They are too easy a target for payback. What is very probable is that they sell it to a terrorist group for commodities that they have been restricted from (like fuel, explosives, uranium, ect) and then an old ship sails into New York harbor and Ka-Boom.

Instant economic disaster and kaos with 5M dead and no one will know were it came from... And the streets in Iran will be celebrating! And that woman broadcaster on North Korean News will be giggling like she was when she announced the nuclear test!

Korean war? 50+ years ago? You don't think things change in 50 years?
And the USA is a republic not a democracy. Do you hate all communists because they are communists? Same with socialists? same with liberals.


Well you seem to have your mind set anyway, no use in me posting here.

Have a great day!

WOW! You are certainly arrogant. Yes, I hate communism and socialism and any leader who upholds such governments. THe people don't know any better, but so far you have successfully said NOTHING about the topic of this thread. And actually, America is a Republican Democracy:) Get YOUR facts straight.

And NO, things politically do not change in 50 years. Russia and China still hate us and that was BEFORE the korean war. Why don't you come to the US before you socialists in Canada start assuming you know what we are about. (Socialist Canadians like you, not referring the population as a whole)

For North Korea, I am not sure there is anything we can do. Clinton had a great treaty with them except they broke it. The 6 nation talks with Korea offered them food, oil, raw materials and everything even a official relations with the US and diplimats in the US, but Korea refused to agree to any of the offers.

So I am not sure that there is anything we can do at this point but let them do what they want to do, or try and put some pressure on China to force Korea to do something ( they are the only ones with the power to make them do anything)

Iran, they just hate Isreal and the USA, not because we are in Iraq ( although that does not help) but only because we stand for freedom of choice, religion and speech. They have hated us before Clinton, during Clinton, during Bush and will still hate us no matter who is elected. They way they work at destroying the US will depend on the policies of those in power.

Iraq, US has a lot to do with setting them up in power and it just went bad, like who did not see it coming. And we also need a great base in that part of the world. And their area was a great training area for terrorist. I won't say we did not need to invade, since their people were little more than slaves to a evil dictator, but the issue is now, will they fight for their freedom or do they just want us to fight for them.
If they will not soon start fighting ( each person like we did in the US for our freedom) every man in Iraq should be lined up to join the police force to fight for his nation, unless something like this happens, honestly we need to pull out since we can't win the war for them, they have to win the war thierself.

And the nation you left out is Pakistain, they have atomic weapons already if I understand it correctly, a large percentage of their people support the terrorist groups, The military is divided in loyality, and most likley they are hiding some of the terrorist and was the reason many of the leaders escaped.

While they talk about being our friends, their actions don't show it a lot.

I think it is interesting how all of a sudden N Korea has threatened war if we impose sanctions on their country. I'd like to see that. They wouldn't last too long against russia, china, japan, s korea, and the US.

I think you are giving too much credit to China and Russia,

I don't think that N Korea would do anything with out at least a nod form China, since without them they have no fuel or raw material.
And Russia would like nothing more than to see China and Korea fight the US, which would leave them as someone to help supply mateials to various nations

You may find the comments in this thread of interest to you:
http://www.digg.com/politics/The_Truth_Behind_Military_Inaction_in_North_Korea

In all seriousness, do they not teach about the korean war in Canada?

For the most part, no they do not. It is a quick footnote, but we do not spend much time learning about it at all.

We spent more time learning about the assassination of your President Kennedy than the Korean war.




Why don't you come to the US before you socialists in Canada start assuming you know what we are about. (Socialist Canadians like you, not refering the the population as a whole)

Yes, because we are all a bunch of socialist commies.

Just because Canadians have different views than Americans, is no reason to put us down.

You don't here us calling you a fat, arrogant, lazy, opportunistic, selfish, greedy, unethical American, now do you?

For the most part, no they do not. It is a quick footnote, but we do not spend much time learning about it at all.

We spent more time learning about the assassination of your President Kennedy than the Korean war.
That's OK, we didn't learn much about your country's government either... and I grew up in Detroit (a stone's throw from Windsor, Ontario).




You don’t here us calling you a fat, arrogant, lazy, opportunistic, selfish, greedy, unethical American, now do you?

I think we just did. How is it that being a called a Socialist (aren't you?) warrants such name-calling?

I think we just did. How is it that being a called a Socialist (aren't you?) warrants such name-calling?

Wow.

Obviouslly you aren't familiar with sarcaism.

I have nothing against most Americans. A huge portion of my family are American and live there.

Just sometimes, certain people get on my nerves. I don't judge an entire country by the actions of a few.



That's ok, we didn't learn much about your country's government either...and I grew up in Detroit (a stone's throw from Windsor, Ontario).

You are right there.

I was once in Florida on vacation when I was asked, "Where do you come from". I replied Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Then, they seriously asked me if I lived in an igloo.

Sometimes ignorance is sad, and with some people, it does exist.

Most of the time I try to stay out of voicing my opinions on US domestic issues, not always, sometimes.

But seeing the education system and other things in the US, I'm glad to be living in Canada. (some US states scare me, others are not at all bad)

The main reason that I believe Canadians take a 'let's sit back and watch approach', is because Canadians have nothing to worrry about. I mean, attacking Canada is worse than attacking 30 Afganistans.

Not only would a hostile force have to spread so thin to cover our vast wilderness, they would have to contend with scorching hot summer days followed by freezing cold winter night. Just the thought of having to deal with our Indian population would turn the average person off!

Meanwhile, our neighbor is a prize. Nice hot and easy environment. Well populated.

If you take Canada, you probably won't last a year (unless your from Siberia). If you take US, you've upset the world's balance of power! Also in US, you don't have to rebuild your igloo each year!

But not all Canadians are narrow minded and think only for themselves. Personally, I take the 'get them before they get you' approach. Even if the 'you' is US, not Canada!

I guess you might say that I'm a team player.

Obviouslly you aren't familiar with sarcaism.



No, but I am familiar with sarcasm, which I hoped was evident in my response to your comments. Sorry for the misunderstanding. It must be that US educational system.;)

Make it simple, Korea is the puppet of China and Iran is a terrorist state. Both of these countries exploit and keep there people in ignorance and poverty so they can be manipulated for the goals of the ruling classes. What can be done? You don't want my answer.

Ok.

We are in Iraq, Iran will possibly have nuclear weapons within the next two years, and it is possible N Korea could be fairly close if not already there. We are distracted in Iraq, so what do we do?

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT CUT AND RUN OR BUSH'S POLICY ON IRAQ OR WHETHER OR NOT IT IS AN ILLEGAL WAR! Instead I want to hear what you think about what can be done with the current situation we HAVE to live with.

The best way to get on with other nations, especially if gunnboat diplomacy and "bomb 'em into submission" policy has failed, is to make friend with them.

Above all, be consistent. Don't just pick on the little easy to beat guys and nations, if you bomb Iraq because it is run by a tyrant who threatens the west, then you have to do the same to China. When white man speaks with forked tongue is made as plain as it has been with this WH, then it is time for a change.

Diplomacy is not the art of browbeating, but the art of understanding those who are different, and it does not involve thinking that your way is the only way, or that your ideas are the only good ones. No one likes a bully, and any foreign pooicy as clearly founded on brutishness as this WH's is needs removal and impeachment fior the danger and cost of lives it has brought into the world by its inane bumbling. Sure, NK is a threat, but why is it? Because it was named as part of the AXIS OF EVIL by the leader of another country who sought to marshall support for his ghastly actions and policies in the ME.

Although it is not considered red-blooded, it is manful to take the heat for one's own mistakes, and to calm the troubled waters of the world, instead of throwing around ultimata like a sailor on leave throws his cash aorund.

The USA needs statemanship, but its only got politicking.

My 2c

M:)

...Korea is the puppet of China...

While that is mostly true, the now confirmed nuclear test that DPRK carried out (without China's approval) now causes a real problem in the region.

The DPRK has some very serious problems to deal with, but above all else they want regime survival. I don't think Kim Jong Il is crazy, I think he's pretty savvy in stirring up a hornets nest of trouble that gives him a card to play in trading appeasement for the survival of his government.

Well, as a last resort the U.S. can always nuclearize(build up) small nuclear weapons to South Korea & Japan.

The news is fresh every day & today it looks like the sanctions are promising towards the North K. It's just a shame that Kim Jong Il would have his people starve because of his defiance.

Meanwhile Pres. Of Iran still crying "hegemony!" regarding the U.S.'s influence in the U.N.
I think the leaders have to deal with the priorities of each day accordingly.

The N. Korea problem looks very promising to me. Iran looks "iffy" but not chaotic. Patience- I hope they both can be worked out diplomatically of course.

While that is mostly true, the now confirmed nuclear test that DPRK carried out (without China's approval) now causes a real problem in the region.

The DPRK has some very serious problems to deal with, but above all else they want regime survival. I don't think Kim Jong Il is crazy, I think he's pretty savvy in stirring up a hornets nest of trouble that gives him a card to play in trading appeasement for the survival of his government.

No way I buy China has no influence on N.Korea since they send a lot of food and fuel to them. Publicly China may disapprove but behind the scenes is another matter in my opinion. They bear watching. As for Iran I have no doubt that they have a hidden partner or to giving them support as well. Both of these small countries is seeking something with embarrassing us (US) as a tool to draw us into some kind of bad position. Hopefully the diplomats can resolve this ( IF Bush lets them) otherwise a lot of people will be in a lot of trouble.

Why world Leaders worry about N. Korea, Iraq, Iran having nuclear weapons?
Very simple , Those countries dose not have code of governing ethics. Single hand Controls of laws and commanding the country under dictatorship ,Leader of the country is above the law, no sense of security on other countries stability, Also No sense of value on Human life . For them destroying their So called enemy is destroying the people of the country. So do you think Nuclear weapons is suitable for them.

Today we all know N.Korea has 500% human rights violation and unbelievably number of people on hunger and extreme poverty. Most number of food and other essential products is import from Japan. They are in lack of Health facilities, children are dying with out food, basic medicine so on.

Sanction is not the answer. N.Korea knew if they test it they will face this. But the Leader of the nation did it.

He is happy , he is in lime light. Do you think? People of N. Korea want it. Unless they are asked to perform patriot action on behalf their leader.

Some of the USA's problems stem from its self appointed role as police of the world.
Once that role is assumed then world events must be responded to accordingly or else face is lost. Countries, such as England, and France can conveniently sit back and ignore certain events because they haven't tagged themselves as law enforcers and so no face is lost if they simply decide to look the other way. China, for example, and Russia, don't seem to react to world events with the same vehemence as our government does.

Perhaps this is because they leave that to the USA whom they know will jump right in if ever anyone as much as twitches a muscle without its consent.

England takes a stance as does Canada as well. We support US efforts in Afganistan and if our military was as mighty as the US, the news would focus in on our efforts as well.

Proof is the attempted terrorist attact on Englands international flights that was founded and spoiled by England's anti-terrorist division. If we want a society of democracy, everyone has to contribute and there has to be a leader. Just because US is the leader doesn't make them self-proclaimed.

We should be thankful that someone has stepped forward to take the stick before we crash!

I can't help wonder what a difference it could have made if diplomacy had been used instead of armies.

England takes a stance as does Canada as well. We support US efforts in Afganistan and if our military was as mighty as the US, the news would focus in on our efforts as well.

Proof is the attempted terrorist attact on Englands international flights that was founded and spoiled by England's anti-terrorist division. If we want a society of democracy, everyone has to contribute and there has to be a leader. Just because US is the leader doesn't make them self-proclaimed.

We should be thankful that someone has stepped forward to take the stick before we crash!!

That doasn't negate the fact that the USA is the prime one expected to react decisively
Which takes the ultimate pressure off all other countries which could easily bow out if things get too hot. In fact, the USA even went above the advice of the United Nations and took the lead during the weapons of mass destruction issue. True, Canada and England and other countries follow its lead-but they can bow out easily if they choose and will not lose the amount of face that the USA will if it bows out after having gone through extensive posturing.

BVTW
I'm not taking sides in foreign policy issues one way or the other but merely responding to the question asked with whast I perceive to be a contributing factor to the present situation in which the USA finds itself. Nothing more.

England takes a stance as does Canada as well. We support US efforts in Afganistan and if our military was as mighty as the US, the news would focus in on our efforts as well.

Proof is the attempted terrorist attact on Englands international flights that was founded and spoiled by England's anti-terrorist division. If we want a society of democracy, everyone has to contribute and there has to be a leader. Just because US is the leader doesn't make them self-proclaimed.

We should be thankful that someone has stepped forward to take the stick before we crash!!

Yes, but, unlike our current president, your Mounties "always get their man."
Anyone heard from bin Laden lately? How about it? Dudley Do-Right in 2008. Any votes?
It's got to be better than "Spudley Do-Wrong." :rolleyes: :)

About bin laden, it's quite hard to find a dead man! Look at Jimmy Hoffa, and he's somewhere in your own back yard!

As for 'the mounties always get their man'; well, where would their man go? I mean, the US has the death penalty, Russia and China just cut off your limbs and North Korea just shoot you on the spot- no questions.

In Canada, when your in jail you get time off to vote, widescreen TV in every cell with pay-per-view and a wage! The hardest decision for released criminals is whether to stick with Canada's lucrative social service or return to another loafer jail sentence!

About bin laden, it's quite hard to find a dead man!! Look at Jimmy Hoffa, and he's somewhere in your own back yard!!

As for 'the mounties always get their man'; well, where would their man go? I mean, the US has the death penalty, Russia and China just cut off your limbs and North Korea just shoot you on the spot- no questions.

In Canada, when your in jail you get time off to vote, widescreen TV in every cell with pay-per-view and a wage! The hardest decision for released criminals is whether to stick with Canada's lucrative social service or return to another loafer jail sentence!!

Are you serious about the cutting off limbs as punishment in China and Russia?

I can't help wonder what a difference it could have made if diplomacy had been used instead of armies.

Nations are like people. Some people respond to courtesy positivelely and others
Don't. Hitler for example viewed diplomacy as a weakness. Nevertheless, diplomacy is the preferable course of action in personal and international relations. It is truly a pity that mankind, the only creature able to reason on this planet is the very creature who threatens the existence of all life on earth due to its inability to settle things peacefully. In my opinion only divine intervention can ultimately bring peace to this earth. In the meantime nations will keep trying their best. But as history proves and as the present situation shows their best falls very far short. In fact, their best seems to be getting us deeper and deeper into trouble. It's like the animal that struggles to get out of the tar pit and only hastens his end by doing so..

I lost an Uncle in the Korean War... he died of a lost of blood... Lost a brother in the Vietnam conflict and a few uncles( some still have the ring of ears they were asked to collect) and cousin came home with mental illnesses and the government has shown little attention to the issues... a brother in law in the gulf war and cousins I had yet to meet are now crisis in the middle east... most important for everyone to remember who dead and give up their mental state... for the right to strive for perfection...

Canada participated in *South African - Boer War 1899-1902;World War1 1914-1919;World War 2 1939-1949;Korean War (Conflict) 1950-1953“Canada's role in the First World War and her 60,000 dead had earned her the right to” place any delegation at the peace table... so why are we not hearing something from Canada... it is true what is best for the United States is best for its bordered nations... if someone sends a dirty bomb this direction Canada and Mexico will feel it..
*http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/siberia/siberia5.htm

We should have we learned something from these wars... the enemy must be made clear... in this conflict... the enemy sometimes feels like ourselves...

I do feel that the west has placed method of poverty as a way of controlling a population... keeping them passive to the controlling authority issues which are: hating anything communist or socialist even through we have taken some of these ideas and melt them into our society (social security and kindergarten)... skin coloring and hair texture...

Poverty was created by the imperialist stand of the west... poverty creates despair and hopelessness... and it also creates a servitude bond to who ever offers a way out of the condition... of poverty... you have people willing to die instead of being bonded to servitude...

For example, within the minorities in the U.S... very few people in the world community respect American minorities because the ruling body has so disgraced and demeaned them.
Israel needs to keep none Zionist employed and Iraq's need to keep certain Muslims or Moslem groups suppressed... for what?. for all nations wants a suppressive minority group like America... after all it is a fashionable statement... every one wants a big dog...

If a nation desires to be ruled under the authority of the west they will have to stand behind or underfoot of the west's authority.
And if the west wants to give a relief... it is marked by the bill of rights. Voters rights for minorities in America (in under a time table and must be brought back to the table to be reexamined so many decades
... if you are of... Euro heritage no such legislation exist... that gives time tables and reexamination... of a Euro right...

If there is to be peace there must be a cleaning up of one's own neighborhood. Then the United States will sing we have overcome... we have over came it's years/century of bondage and needing of this servitude attitude... righteous movement... until that comes this bronze statue with a clay base... will all ways be recognize as such and treated as such...

Building a nation on hate (which is representative of clay)... there will be no peace... and no peace will exist in the middle east as long as they have an understanding that no nation with a weak leader... mark... an apology is necessary to give to world for the missed - guided action of our ancestors...

... the problem is false teachers of the faith on both sides... these people do not care whom they hurt

... the U.S. has it evangelical right also... starting with the religious leaders telling the population the world needs to be under the direction of Euro America and if no one sees it that way they need to die... prove wrong

... religion plays a role in humanity destruction... what is at the end of revelation and what are we to do with the religionist text once the prophecy had been fulfilled... throw them into the lake of fire... if a nation is ready to throw all religionist text into a lake of fire then we will see the beginning of heaven on earth...

Just an opinion...

Smaller or less-developed nations with a relatively small or inferior conventional militaries present a special problem for the very reason that their military capabilities are so limited.

Faced with a vastly superior enemy, what would be the logical expectation for a smaller country about to lose a war (and all that goes with that) that, while it could not prevail with conventional arms, had a nuclear device? Of course they would use it. Given the choice between defeat and employment of atomic weapons, most governments/militaries would quickly nuke their opponents.

Nuclear weapons are seen as the great equalizer by the leadership of many smaller, third-world, and developing nations. Indeed, the United States relied on exclusive possession of atomic weapons to keep the Soviet Union at bay without having to expend tremendous sums on conventional military forces. We had 'em, they didn't, what's the worst that could happen? It was like fistfighting, only your opponent has a gun and you don't... You can't really even try to beat him. That strategy worked until the U.S.S.R. with a little help from the Rosenbergs, got their own.

Fortunately, the answer to nuclear proliferation amongst smaller nations is quite simple. They want the weapons so as to keep larger, stronger nations (like ours) at bay. They need nukes because their conventional military is inadequate. The most effective solution, therefore, is to make it clear that the U.S. or, preferably, the U.S. and allies, will attack and destroy any facility believed to be utilized for the manufacture of such weapons

As soon as we detect that Country X has developed the ability to produce weapons grade material, or a delivery system readily usable for a nuclear strike, we will destroy your research and development facility, as well as any military installation known to be the base for personnel working with nuclear weapons - either the design/fabrication, research, or in a line unit to be armed with nukes - we destroy such facilities, quickly and completely, along with a degree of punitive damages, designed to discourage such policies.

What are they going to do? They wanted nukes because their conventional forces were inadequate to mess with us, so what are they going to do if we destroy their facilities? Exactly nothing, because they can't. That's why they wanted the weapons to begin with.

Gary,
That reasoning could explain why the US is so hated.

GaryArt, They could hi-jack a plane and run it into..!

They could blow up a subway system during rush hour.

That doasn't negate the fact that the USA is the prime one expected to react decisively
which takes the ultimate pressure off all other countries which could easily bow out if things get too hot. In fact, the USA even went above the advice of the United Nations and took the lead during the weapons of mass destruction issue. True, Canada and England and other countries follow its lead-but they can bow out easily if they choose and will not lose the amount of face that the USA will if it bows out after having gone through extensive posturing.

BVTW
I'm not taking sides in foreign policy issues one way or the other but merely responding to the question asked with whast I perceive to be a contributing factor to the present situation in which the USA finds itself. Nothing more.


"Losing face" is an oriental characteristic that has become very important to President Bush. He will send thousands more to their deaths rather than admit he was wrong in judgement, wrong in action, wrong in strategy, and wrong in his forecasts.

The Iraq War will, in the future, be referred to as "The War of George W Bush's Pride," of "The War Of Bush's Folly."

Even some republicans are seeing the light.



M:)


Are you serious about the cutting off of limbs as punishment in China and Russia?



I think not. Muslim countries under Sharia Law use amputation as punishments. In severer cases, decapitation.

China slaughters its citizens each year - numbered in the thousands - for capital offenses that in the West carry only custodial, probationary, or financial penalities. How's that for denial of human rights? Isn't it time that the US insisted that China democratise, or else suffer invasion to force democracy on them, a la Iraq?

Will Bush stand by and let Tyrannical China crush Democratic Taiwan (Formosa)?

Remember the Bushamo!



M:)

"Losing face" is an oriental characteristic that has become very important to President Bush. He will send thousands more to their deaths rather than admit he was wrong in judgement, wrong in action, wrong in strategy, and wrong in his forecasts.

The Iraq War will, in the future, be referred to as "The War of George W Bush's Pride," of "The War Of Bush's Folly."

Even some republicans are seeing the light.



M:)

Yet Bush was reelected in preference of a candidate who opposed the war in Iraq.
Which seemed to indicate that those who voted were in agreement with his policies.
Now we hear that most Americans disagree with his policies. Could these be the very ones who reelected him? If so what did they expect from him on his second term since he was very clear that he was going to continue along the same lines.


"Losing face" is an oriental characteristic that has become very important to President Bush. He will send thousands more to their deaths rather than admit he was wrong in judgement, wrong in action, wrong in strategy, and wrong in his forecasts.

The Iraq War will, in the future, be referred to as "The War of George W Bush's Pride," of "The War Of Bush's Folly."

Even some republicans are seeing the light.



M:)

Perhaps he sincerely believes himself to be right?

Bush's decision, according to him, was his being misinformed about the presence of weapons of mass destruction. Once he knew there were no weapons of mass destruction, however, he shifted gears and claimed that it was America's duty to liberate Iraq from an oppressive dictatorship. This was a policy tantamount to nation building and one which he had previously said that America was not in the business of.-a shift of policy which was never satisfactorily explained during press conferences where it was repeatedly brought up.

The situation reminds me of the Roman Empire's attempt to conquer and pacify the Iberian Peninsula after the defeat of Carthage for the sake of national security. It took Rome two-hundred years of on and off bloody warfare. However, the Roman population encouraged the struggle to go on regardless of the cost which turned out to be very high in terms of human life.


I think not. Muslim countries under Sharia Law use amputation as punishments. In severer cases, decapitation.

China slaughters its citizens each year - numbered in the thousands - for capital offenses that in the West carry only custodial, probationary, or financial penalities. How's that for denial of human rights? Isn't it time that the US insisted that China democratise, or else suffer invasion to force democracy on them, a la Iraq?

Will Bush stand by and let Tyrannical China crush Democratic Taiwan (Formosa)?

Remember the Bushamo!

M:)


What irks me about the present policy is it's blatant bold-faced inconsistency.
On the one hand Cuba is denied commerce with the USA and other nations are discouraged from doing trade with Cuba via warnings of foreign aid withdrawal because it is communist. Meanwhile a thriving business with China goes on and foreign aid offers are made to North Korea. How is the Cuban government supposed to make any sense of this-not to mention China and Korea themselves whom I imagine smirking? If indeed Cuba is being punished for being communist while China and Korea and even perhaps Viet Nam are not, as Russia certainly wasn't during the Cold War when surplus wheat was sold to them, then the claim that the punishment of Cuba is connected to communism and its violations of human rights becomes unbelievable and one begins to suspect another motive.


About invasion of China, that would be far more costly than invasion of Iraq. China has nuclear weapons pointing our way right now and would use them against our cities and our armies as well if it came to their being defeated in conventional terms. My visit there revealed it to be an emerging USA type power in Asia. That's the impression I got and which was later confirmed via research.


Excerpt:

China's Military Capabilities

Frank W Moore, IDDS Research Analyst
June 2000


Intercontinental Nuclear Forces

China currently maintains a minimal intercontinental nuclear deterrent using land-based intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs). The Dong Feng-5 (DF-5) liquid-fueled missile, first deployed in 1981, has a range of 13,000 km and carries a single multi-megaton warhead. Twenty are believed to be deployed in central China, southwest of Beijing. Unlike China's earlier ballistic missiles, which were stored in caves and moved out for launch, the DF-5 can be launched directly from vertical silos—but only after a two-hour fueling process. In order to increase the survivability of the DF-5s, dummy silos are placed near the real silos. The DF-5's range gives it coverage of all of Asia and Europe, and most of the United States. The south-eastern US states are at the edge of the missile's range.

Two additional long-range ballistic missiles are in the development stage, the 8,000 km DF-31 and the 12,000 km DF-41. Both missiles are expected to be solid-fueled and based on mobile launchers. It is not known how many missiles China plans to deploy nor how many warheads the missiles may carry, but it is believed that China is hoping to deploy multiple nuclear warheads and penetration aids. These may be either multiple re-entry vehicles (MRVs) or the more capable, but technically difficult multiple independently-targetable re-entry vehicles (MIRVs). First deployment for the DF-31 could occur before 2005; the DF-41 is likely to follow, possibly around 2010.2

China's nuclear-armed naval forces are currently limited to one Xia Type 092 nuclear-powered and nuclear ballistic missile-equipped submarine (SSBN), which has a history of reactor and acoustic problems. The Xia can carry 12 Ju Lang-1 (JL-1) SLBMs with a single 200-300 kt warhead and a range of 1,700 km. Due to its technical limits, the Type 092 is never deployed outside regional waters.

http://www.comw.org/cmp/fulltext/iddschina.html


http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/China/ChinaArsenal.html


BTW

I almost lost my life at the hands of Beijing airport taxi and hotel reservation employee ruffians who went about as if no law at all existed there. Strange for a land which punishes crime so severely

I think we have to somehow find a way or ways to communicate with those leaders that threaten us, I am opposed to "direct" negotiation with them however and don't quite know why I think that way - I surmise that I dislike dealing with radicals, but I am sure there are ways to communicate through others. Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis and how we communicate with the Russians ? Through an American journalist talking with a Russian diplomat at a restaurant in the US. The journalist told the Russian diplomat that in return for us removing warheads from Turkey, the Russians would remove already armed warheads from Cuba and shelve their plans to install more missles in Cuba. The diplomat asked with what authority the journalist was speaking and the journalist replied from the "highest' American authority. Without lines communication open we somehow become fearful of each other.

"
Losing face" is an oriental characteristic that has become very important to President Bush. He will send thousands more to their deaths rather than admit he was wrong in judgement, wrong in action, wrong in strategy, and wrong in his forecasts.

The Iraq War will, in the future, be referred to as "The War of George W Bush's Pride," of "The War Of Bush's Folly."



It is the fault of limited minded people that supported this war with Iraq... no one asked questions... former Secretary of State Powell... showed a clip to the united nations... he showed a truck... and he stated that this truck was carrying questionable substance... no one challenged the information... later after viewing the clip... the truck was a fire truck... Iraq President committed an act against humanity by killing women and men and children... for nothing more than... he heard that someone in that neighborhood hated him... Bush has one issue on his plate the attack against U.S. interest... Bush should have focused... and never minded the words of a this man S.H.. . his neighbors had him at check... those who voted Bush man back into office are responsible for the chaos... Not giving the attention this important issues with care... another important point... he made this decision... what the failure... no support of the troops... never send a soldier out without back up... and reinforcement... this is the problem with this war... it is as if.. . this administration is sending troops out just to keep the people angry... the war is oil and oil control means controlling the U.S... the question... why would Americans believe that a slimy substance could control their home... why would American allow others to tell them that this miss is needed to keep this nation safe... as Thomas Jefferson once supported that a revolt is need every 75 y ears... we are not technical challenged nation... we have other means in getting around... history will take his campaign slogan that he does not change his mind... his un moveable... he hates negative opinions about himself... then he should not have become president... the story about running a car into a garage door... because of something said that he did not like... this is the President... he did made a decision... on Iraq... after all they threaten his daddy... there is nothing wrong with him loving his daddy... but threats happens like this goes with the office... that is why the secret service is in business... he needed not to place those that he had sworn to protect in danger unnecessary... this action is more than recklessness... it was a deception... More like G.W.'s deception...

The other issue... “... oriental characteristic... ” is an inviolable, and taboo term... offensive for people of Asian descent... diversity training...

I lost an Uncle in the Korean War...he died of a lost of blood...Lost a brother in the Vietnam conflict and a few uncles( some still have the ring of ears they were asked to collect) and cousin came home with mental illnesses and the government has shown little attention to the issues...a brother in law in the gulf war and cousins I had yet to meet are now crisis in the middle east...most important for everyone to remember who dead and give up their mental state...for the right to strive for perfection...

Canada participated in *South African - Boer War 1899-1902;World War1 1914-1919;World War 2 1939-1949;Korean War (Conflict) 1950-1953“Canada's role in the First World War and her 60,000 dead had earned her the right to” place any delegation at the peace table...so why are we not hearing something from Canada ...it is true what is best for the United States is best for its bordered nations...if someone sends a dirty bomb this direction Canada and Mexico will feel it...?
*http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/siberia/siberia5.htm (http://www.rootsweb.com/%7Ecanmil/siberia/siberia5.htm)

We should have we learned something from these wars...the enemy must be made clear...in this conflict... the enemy sometimes feels like ourselves...

I do feel that the west has placed method of poverty as a way of controlling a population... keeping them passive to the controlling authority issues which are: hating anything communist or socialist even through we have taken some of these ideas and melt them into our society (social security and kindergarten)...skin coloring and hair texture...

poverty was created by the imperialist stand of the west...poverty creates despair and hopelessness... and it also creates a servitude bond to who ever offers a way out of the condition...of poverty...you have people willing to die instead of being bonded to servitude ...

For example, within the minorities in the U.S....very few people in the world community respect American minorities due to the fact that the ruling body has so disgraced and demeaned them.
Israel needs to keep none Zionist employed and Iraq’s need to keep certain Muslims or Moslem groups suppressed ...for what? ...for all nations wants a suppressive minority group like America...after all it is a fashionable statement...every one wants a big dog...

if a nation desires to be ruled under the authority of the west they will have to stand behind or underfoot of the west’s authority.
And if the west wants to give a relief...it is marked by the bill of rights. voters rights for minorities in America (in under a time table and must be brought back to the table to be reexamined so many decades
...if you are of...Euro heritage no such legislation exist...that gives time tables and reexamination...of a Euro right...

If there is to be peace there must be a cleaning up of one’s own neighborhood. Then the United States will sing we have overcome...we have over came it’s years/century of bondage and needing of this servitude attitude ... righteous movement...until that comes this bronze statue with a clay base...will all ways be recognize as such and treated as such...

Building a nation on hate (which is representative of clay)... there will be no peace...and no peace will exist in the middle east as long as they have an understanding that no nation with a weak leader...mark... an apology is necessary to give to world for the missed - guided action of our ancestors...

...the problem is false teachers of the faith on both sides... these people do not care whom they hurt

...the U.S. has it evangelical right also...starting with the religious leaders telling the population the world needs to be under the direction of Euro America and if no one sees it that way they need to die...prove wrong

...religion plays a role in humanity destruction...what is at the end of revelation and what are we to do with the religionist text once the prophecy had been fulfilled...throw them into the lake of fire...if a nation is ready to throw all religionist text into a lake of fire then we will see the beginning of heaven on earth...

just an opinion...



very few people in the world community respect American minorities due to the fact that the ruling body has so disgraced and demeaned them.


This is absolutely untrue. The outside world (!) does not rely on the media or the govermnent for their information an dopinions, to suggest that it does is demeaning to everyone who is not American is as opprobrious as it is unaccurate. Get out of that Yankeee Bubble.

Non-Americans do not all live in the stone age, in mud huts, caves, or swamps, grubbing for a living in the dirt and unaware of what is going on in the world. The 'outside' world is extremely well educated, can spell better than Americans, is more informed of global; katters, and is more savvy than you gove them credit for.

Someone's eyes need to be opened much wider to see the world as it really is and not as described in the "Dead Man's Gulch Reporter" newspaper.


M:)RGANITE



.

[I]

Non-Americans do not all live in the stone age, in mud huts, caves, or swamps, grubbing for a living in the dirt and unaware of what is going on in the world.

Unfortunately, most non-American alies do!

Unfortunately, most non-American alies do!!





You are either mad or ignorant if you believe that. That has to be the silliest thing I have ever heard.




BTW - all allies have to be 'non-American.'



You will provide a lits of the mud hut dwellers, yes?

BTW

I almost lost my life at the hands of Beijing airport taxi and hotel reservation employee ruffians who went about as if no law at all existed there. Strange for a land which punishes crime so severely

You ought not to upset foreigners in their own country.

Published on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 by the Independent/UK
China Leads Death List as Number of Executions Around the World Soars
by Anne Penketh, Diplomatic Editor


Executions around the world are nearing record levels, and the Unites States is among the four countries which account for 97 per cent of the total, a report has found.

At least 3,797 people were executed in 25 countries in 2004, according to a report released today by Amnesty International.

The report says China easily operates the most stringent capital punishment regime, with an estimated 3,400 executions last year. In second place, Iran executed at least 159, Vietnam at least 64, and 59 prisoners were put to death in the US.

The number of executions worldwide last year was the highest since 1996, when 4,272 were carried out.

No official figures are available for China's execution rate, and Amnesty has changed the method it uses to calculate the number of executions there. According to Amnesty's report for 2003 China carried out at least 726 executions. The much higher figure of 3,400 executed last year is an estimate based on internet reports of trials, although it is still described as the "tip of the iceberg".

Kate Allen, Amnesty International's UK director, said China's record was "genuinely frightening". Amnesty quoted a delegate at the National People's Congress in March last year, who said that "nearly 10,000" people were executed every year in China. Corruption is among the crimes which carries the death penalty.

Ms Allen said: "It is deeply disturbing that the vast majority of those executed in the world last year did not even have fair trials, and many were convicted on the basis of 'evidence' extracted under torture.

"The death penalty is cruel and unnecessary, does not deter crime, and runs the risk of killing the wrongly convicted. It is time to consign the death penalty to the dustbin of history." Yet the figures conceal a trend that shows a general move towards abolition. "The world continued to move closer to the universal abolition of capital punishment during 2004," the report says.

Five countries abolished the death penalty for all crimes last year - Bhutan, Greece, Samoa, Senegal and Turkey. This means that 120 countries have abolished the death penalty in law or practice.

Although the US has become accustomed to being named in the grim league table alongside states such as Iran, which it has branded an "outpost of tyranny," there were fewer executions compared with 2003, when 65 were held. Two prisoners with long histories of mental illness were put to death in the US, but the Supreme Court ruled that imposing death sentences against child offenders contravened the US constitution.

In several of the 38 American states where the death penalty is still legal, the lawfulness of lethal injection has been challenged on the grounds that one of the chemicals used may mask a prisoner's suffering.

Amnesty says that six prisoners on death row in the US were released last year after they were found innocent.

Kenny Richey, a Scotsman, whose conviction for murder and arson was overturned on appeal earlier this year, is still at risk of execution because Ohio prosecutors are trying to have the decision overturned.

Ms Allen said: "Last year I visited Scotsman Kenny Richey on death row in Ohio and saw the true wretchedness of a system that can condemn someone to years of calculated cruelty as they await death at the hands of the state.

"Even now Kenny is effectively suspended between life and death. We want to see Ohio prosecutors accept the senior state court's decision and release Kenny immediately," Ms Allen said.

In some countries, such as Vietnam, it remains a state secret to reveal the number of executions carried out. Video evidence of North Korea's execution of defectors was produced last week in a video released by a Japanese non-governmental organization.

MOST EXECUTIONS

Total in 2004

1 China 3,400*

2 Iran 159*

3 Vietnam 64*

4 United States 59*

5 Saudi Arabia 33*

6 Pakistan 15*

7 Kuwait 9*

8 Bangladesh 7*

9= Egypt 6*

= Singapore 6*

= Yemen 6*

*Minimum

© 2005 Independent News & Media (UK) Ltd.

Sky News has obtained chilling new evidence of mobile execution buses being used by the Chinese government.

It comes less than two years before China hosts the next Olympics - an event it was given after promising to improve its human rights record.

China's penal system is surrounded by a wall of secrecy, but an investigation by Sky's China correspondent Dominic Waghorn found between 3,500 and 10,000 people are put to death each year.

The volume of executions has meant China has invented new ways of killing, mobilising and mechanising its execution system.

A brochure acquired by Sky News reveals details of China's new execution buses now operating across the country.

Fitted with lethal injection equipment they can deliver on-the-spot executions.

Sky News spoke to a number of people affected by the executions including the family of Nie Shubin who was only 20 when he was wrongly accused of rape and murder.

His mother and sister told how he was held in jail for three years, without being allowed to see his family.

Nie Shuie said: "They never let me see him after his arrest. That continued till the end. I never saw him again before he was executed.

"And nobody told us that he had been executed."

Nie was accused of attacking a woman in a field near his home, but only after his execution did another man confess to the attack.

In an exclusive report earlier this year, Sky News gathered evidence linking China's execution system and its booming organ transplant industry.

Amnesty International says the demand for transplant organs may be driving the high number of executions in China.

Even by official figures more people are executed every year in China than the rest of the world put together.

etc, etc, etc.

I just saw a video smuggled out of North Korea. Three men were caught smuggling a woman from North Korea into China. All three were tied to a post and executed. They didn't seem too interested in organs. The execution was on the spot; no one came forward to admit they were related.

I ust saw a video from North Korea where everyone was happy and singing and saying how much they love the world.

You ought not to upset foreigners in their own country.

.

My statement concerning my experience at the Beijing Airport wasn't meant as a contradiction to your information concerning the justice system in China. It was only
an expression of my surprise at their audacity despite their strict justice system.

As for who was to blame--please remember that I was there when certain things happened and that those who were not there are in no position to judge--especially when I haven't given the details.

My association with those of Chinese descent have proved one thing they are not cowards... if they desired to come after some one they would have done so... China understands it’s enemy... that is why China hold the largest amount U.S. currency... they invested strongly in the U.S... get over China... North Korea is in despair... it needs your attention... they will get it by any means necessary... China does not want this leader of North Korea to f*** up it’s lands... Former Secretary of State Powell stated he would not be blackmailed... in reference to North Korea... this is a poor nation... stating to the world... hate me then I will hate you... go to the table... have a conversation with this man and his people... poor on poor will bring more hatred to the west... the west needs to correct it’s problems... and clean up the mess... that should have been done after the war/conflict... North Korea has a growing population... that understands these things... I am in hunger and no one is feeding me... nor is anyone helping me take care of myself... rebuilding is the answer... terrorize and burn will only mean the end of this system of things...

If China is as wealthy as they are saying she is--then their shouldn't be a problem in helping the poor nation of North Korea at its border-especially when they claim to be such good friends. This strikes me as an Asiatic form of capitalistic interminable hoarding of wealth by the fortunate few while those who have very little are considered as deserving it and unworthy of any significant help.

It also comes across as weird that the Chinese were more than willing to sacrifice thousands of Chinese lives to keep North Korea communist by fighting the United States but didn't follow up by making sure that once it was that way its population would not suffer the poverty now present or that its people would not come under the present tyranny.

I think we have to somehow find a way or ways to communicate with those leaders that threaten us, I am opposed to "direct" negotiation with them however and don't quite know why I think that way - I surmise that I dislike dealing with radicals, but I am sure there are ways to communicate through others. Remember the Cuban Missle Crisis and how we communicate with the Russians ? Through an American journalist talking with a Russian diplomat at a restaurant in the US. The journalist told the Russian diplomat that in return for us removing warheads from Turkey, the Russians would remove already armed warheads from Cuba and shelve their plans to install more missles in Cuba. The diplomat asked with what authority the journalist was speaking and the journalist replied from the "highest' American authority. Without lines communication open we somehow become fearful of each other.





What's wrong with face to face talks with those you esteem as enemies? Why use back door diplomacy unless you are a back door country?



:confused:


Smaller or less-developed nations with a relatively small or inferior conventional militaries present a special problem for the very reason that their military capabilities are so limited.

Faced with a vastly superior enemy, what would be the logical expectation for a smaller country about to lose a war (and all that goes with that) that, while it could not prevail with conventional arms, had a nuclear device? Of course they would use it. Given the choice between defeat and employment of atomic weapons, most governments/militaries would quickly nuke their opponents.

Nuclear weapons are seen as the great equalizer by the leadership of many smaller, third-world, and developing nations. Indeed, the United States relied on exclusive possession of atomic weapons to keep the Soviet Union at bay without having to expend tremendous sums on conventional military forces. We had 'em, they didn't, what's the worst that could happen? It was like fistfighting, only your opponent has a gun and you don't... You can't really even try to beat him. That strategy worked until the U.S.S.R., with a little help from the Rosenbergs, got their own.

Fortunately, the answer to nuclear proliferation amongst smaller nations is quite simple. They want the weapons so as to keep larger, stronger nations (like ours) at bay. They need nukes because their conventional military is inadequate. The most effective solution, therefore, is to make it clear that the U.S., or, preferably, the U.S. and allies, will attack and destroy any facility believed to be utilized for the manufacture of such weapons

As soon as we detect that Country X has developed the ability to produce weapons grade material, or a delivery system readily usable for a nuclear strike, we will destroy your research and development facility, as well as any military installation known to be the base for personnel working with nuclear weapons - either the design/fabrication, research, or in a line unit to be armed with nukes - we destroy such facilities, quickly and completely, along with a degree of punitive damages, designed to discourage such policies.

What are they gonna do? They wanted nukes because their conventional forces were inadequate to mess with us, so what are they gonna do if we destroy their facilities? Exactly nothing, because they can't. That's why they wanted the weapons to begin with.



That is precisely the kind of bullying talk that has made the USA the pariah of the civilised world and the bane of developing countries.


Consider this: If the US leaders have brains but don't use them, why would leaders of other countries who have nuclear weapons use them?




:eek:


That is precisely the kind of bullying talk that has made the USA the pariah of the civilised world and the bane of developing countries.


Consider this: If the US leaders have brains but don't use them, why would leaders of other countries who have nuclear weapons use them?

Q: Why do they need to keep your nation at bay?
A: Because you pose a threat to their existence!

Go figure


:eek:

The squeaky wheel is the one that gets the grease, and North Korea is screaming for grease. China is afraid that if it get any worse a whole lot of refugees will invade from N.Korea, just like the Mexicans do in America. Desperate people will do desperate things.

If China is as wealthy as they are saying she is--then their shouldn't be a problem in helping the poor nation of North Korea at its border-especially when they claim to be such good friends. This strikes me as an Asiatic form of capitalistic interminable hoarding of wealth by the fortunate few while those who have very little are considered as deserving it and unworthy of any significant help.

It also comes across as weird that the Chinese were more than willing to sacrifice thousands of Chinese lives to keep North Korea communist by fighting the United States but didn't follow up by making sure that once it was that way its population would not suffer the poverty now present or that its people would not come under the present tyranny.


The Chinese did not fight the United States in the Korean conflict. The US was a PART of a UNITED NATIONS force composed of many other nations besides the USA. Altogether sixteen nations, including US forces, formed the UN Force to repel invaders from North Korea and prevent them overwwhelming Southn Korea.

The US often speaks as if it was the only player at the table, which is not only inaccurate, but also unattractive.


M:)


Gary,
That reasoning could explain why the US is so hated.

The US is 'hated' because it is an imperialist bully. If you are an American, put yourself in the shoes of a nation that the US is threatening, and dictating to. A nation that boasts of being the land of the free ought to recognise the freedom of other nations to forge their own destinies.

America is not the worlds greatest democracy. It is one amongst many great democracies, but it seems to be the only one that dictates to other countries how they should govern themselves.

These are serious issues.



M:)


Wow.

Obviouslly you aren't familiar with sarcaism.

I have nothing against most Americans. A huge portion of my family are American and live there.

Just sometimes, certain people get on my nerves. I don't judge an entire country by the actions of a few.




You are right there.

I was once in Florida on vacation when I was asked, "Where do you come from". I replied Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Then, they seriously asked me if I lived in an igloo.

Sometimes ignorance is sad, and with some people, it does exist.

Most of the time I try to stay out of voicing my opinions on US domestic issues, not always, sometimes.

But seeing the education system and other things in the US, im glad to be living in Canada. (some US states scare me, others are not at all bad)

Some of my best friends are American, but I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one.

:)

I ust saw a video from North Korea where everyone was happy and singing and saying how much they love the world.

It was either that or get shot on the spot. And that part of the video would be screened.

With over 1M troops with guns, I'd be thin and jolly too!

Some of my best friends are American, but I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one.

:)


There are a lot worse out there. Next time she comes home with an Iranian national wearing a turbin (who longs to see his family back in Iran and quotes foreign words from the Karan every time he gets mad), you'll probably change your mind!

There are alot worse out there. Next time she comes home with an Iranian national wearing a turbin (who longs to see his family back in Iran and quotes foreign words from the Karan everytime he gets mad), you'll probably change your mind!!

Iranians do not wear the turban. Muslims wear a skull cap, rather like the Jewish yamulkah. You are confusing them with Sikhs from Punjab in India!

That's what's wrong with America when it comes to other nations and cultures, hardly anyone knows diddley squat about them. Like the American who shot the Sikh garage proprietor in Phoenix after 9-11 because he thought he was an Arab. He wasn't a terrrorit, he wasn't an Arab, but he is still dead through abysmal ignorance and prejudice.

The Koran is written and read in Arabic, and there are no words in there that can hurt you any more than someone quoting words from the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament can hurt you whether the quoter is mad or not.

I'd rather my daughters marry decent Arabs than some of the wild men from the extreme conservative right wing militants who string up naked children and flog them, or who murder doctors and nurses and think they are doing God's will.


M:rolleyes:

I don't believe what you say about the Koran. Doesn't the Koran introduce this Alla character?
I see videos of terrorist with English sub-titles, "Kill infidels, in the name of Alla" and they are holding a Koran. That's a strong message!

Iranians do not wear the turban. Muslims wear a skull cap, rather like the Jewish yamulkah. You are confusing them with Sikhs from Punjab in India!

That's whats wrong with America when it comes to other nations and cultures, hardly anyone knows diddley squat about them. Like the American who shot the Sikh garage proprietor in Phoenix after 9-11 because he thought he was an Arab. He wasn't a terrrorit, he wasn't an Arab, but he is still dead through abysmal ignorance and prejudice.

The Koran is writen and read in Arabic, and there are no words in there that can hurt you any more than someone quoting words from the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament can hurt you whether the quoter is mad or not.

I'd rather my daughters marry decent Arabs than some of the wild men from the extreme conservative right wing militants who string up naked children and flog them, or who murder doctors and nurses and think they are doing God's will.


M:rolleyes:

You'd prefer your daughter marry a decent Arab rather than "some of the wild men from the extreme conservative right wing militants who string up naked children and flog them, or who murder doctors and nurses and think they are doing God's will."

It appears you're assuming that most Americans (specifically conservatives) are of the far extreme. The killer of the Sikh man is NOT a fair representation of our country's average citizen. Nor are the "right-wing militants who string up naked children and flog them" (Huh? where'd you get that?) or the radical pro-lifers (I assume that was the group to which you refer), just as Muslim extremists are not a good representation of the average Muslim person. That's why they're called extremists. Common sense tells a reasonable person that these people are not part of the majority.

You're no different than those you accuse of prejudice and profiling.

It appears you're assuming that most Americans (specifically conservatives) are of the far extreme. The killer of the Sikh man is NOT a fair representation of our country's average citizen. Nor are the "right-wing militants who string up naked children and flog them" (Huh? where'd you get that?) or the radical pro-lifers (I assume that was the group to which you refer), just as Muslim extremists are not a good representation of the average Muslim person. That's why they're called extremists. Common sense tells a reasonable person that these people are not part of the majority.

You're no different than those you accuse of prejudice and profiling.


If you will read what I wrote more carefully, you will see that I did not apply any characteristics to all Americans, only to some. I made that plain enough so that a wayfaring man though a fool need not err therein. What I wrote is accurate. I did not characterise ALL Americans as extremists, as you charge. I am surprised that you are unaware of the baptists Child Abuses that made the headlines a couple or so years ago! Perhaps the following article will refresh your memory. It is taken from the site "religioustolerance":

Most conservative Christian sources which discuss the "rod" in Proverbs imply that it is a wooden stick of some sort which a parent should use to hit a misbehaving child, causing them pain, and thereby discipline them.


~ Dennis Rupert, pastor of New Life Community Church in Stafford, VA, writes:

"Proverbs 23:13-14..... show that the rod WAS for beating. The shepherd usually used a staff, not a rod, for rescuing, guiding, and creating a boundary for the sheep. The shepherd used the rod for beating (if not always sheep, then enemies of the sheep). Both are necessary in the life of sheep and both are necessary in our lives. Just like Psalm 23:4 says, 'your rod AND your staff, they comfort me'."

"There are people who see any physical affliction as brutality. I'm not of that camp and I think that is more the spirit of the age, than Biblical thinking. Even in the New Testament, God sees the discipline of parents as a worthy method which 'produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it' (Hebrews 12:7-11)."

~ GotQuestions.org answers a visitor's question:

" Question: "How should Christians discipline their children? What does the Bible say?" Their response is:

"The rod in the Bible is a reed-like stick. Proverbs 23:13-14 does in fact promote physical discipline. 'Don't fail to correct your children. They won't die if you spank them. Physical discipline may well save them from death' (NLT version). There are also other verses that support physical correction (Proverbs 13:24, 22:15, 20:30).

The Bible strongly stresses the importance of discipline; it is something we must all have to be productive people and is much easier learned when we are younger. Children who aren't disciplined grow up rebellious, have no respect for authority, and as a result obviously won't be readily willing to obey and follow God." 3

"Tim" at Grace & Truth Ministries writes:

"God COMMANDS us to spank with an implement in Proverbs 23:13-14... The promise from God is that if we do 'beat him with a rod' we will deliver his soul from hell. What a wonderful reward for obedience to the Lord in this area!. The Bible says use a 'rod', and God has His reasons for commanding that we use a rod. It is better to use a rod than one's hand because God says use a rod. You can run to psychology or to a wrong interpretation of the Scripture, but both paths are sadly a means of you yourself rebelling against God and His clear Words." 5

~ Charles Gleason writes:

"The most important consideration must be God's point of view, as revealed in the scriptures. The verses pertaining to the rod of correction are actually COMMANDS of God, to parents of unruly children... Even without the biblical endorsement, spanking has a very established background in the history and tradition of the family unit. Even many of our young adults of our day, can remember grandmother or grandfather using some form of 'the rod of correction' upon their buttocks. (even if their parents did not)... Schoolteachers, guardians, and even neighbors, thought nothing of paddling a rude or naughty child in times past. While this non-parental spanking policy may be subject to many different opinions in our day and time, it was a common sight in our recent past." 6

~ According to the StopTheRod.net web site, Clyde and Twyla Bullock once manufactured, advertised, and sold "The Rod," shown here, to whip children. According to the San Francisco Chronicle, the rod is a "22-inch, $5 white nylon whipping stick... Named after the biblical 'rod of correction,' the Rod provides 'a faith-based way to discipline children ... and train them as Christians,' [Twyla] Bullock explains."

The rod's designer, Clyde Bullocks is a Southern Baptist. This design appears to be his interpretation of the "rod" mentioned in the book of Proverbs. Their advertisement read: "Spoons are for cooking. Belts are for holding up pants. Hands are for loving. RODS are for chastening." It refers to the rod as "the means prescribed by God," citing Proverbs 23:13-14: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." 7,8,9


Jay and Jessica Wigley wrote:

"Proverbs is a book of poetry -- figurative language. Considering just that, I'd say that the rod mentioned in Proverbs is a figurative rod, not a literal one."

That is, when Proverbs 22:15 says "The rod and rebuke give wisdom..." it is referring to the "rod of correction," meaning non-violent methods of correction and teaching a child. As proof of her interpretation, she quotes Proverbs 23:13: "...if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die." Over 1,000 children die each year in the U.S. as a result of corporal punishment. If "beatest him with the rod" really means to beat a child with a rod, then the Bible would be lying. But the Bible is the Word of God and does not lie. Thus, the passage must be referring to a non physical correction with a figurative rod. 10

~ Joanrenae also comments God's promise in Proverbs 23:13. She notes that Exodus 21:20 discusses a situation in which a man must be punished if he beats his male or female slave that he owns to death with a rod.

... So many Christians have taken FIVE verses and hung a whole child rearing philosophy on them! Parents are told to use this as a primary form of punishment (what these experts refer to as discipline). Some use the words "punishment" and "discipline" interchangeably when they mean two entirely different things. These people are basing their theology on nothing more than the traditions of men!" 11

Some Christians interpret the Proverbs' passages as referring to a wooden stick used to beat a child. However, they reject the passages as representing very poor advice that dates from a violent period of biblical history.


~ Susan Lawrence of Arlington, MA, a homeschooling Lutheran mother, was distressed to see an advertisement for a child discipline tool called "The Rod" in a Christian homeschooling magazine.
<img src=http://www.religioustolerance.org/rod.jpg>

Interviewed on Beliefnet, she said:

"There are about five verses in Proverbs that do speak of beating your son with a rod, and also in Proverbs they speak of beating fools on the back, and that kind of thing. There’s a lot of punishment in the Old Testament. If you read the whole thing, there are floggings and stonings and all kinds of harsh punishments."

When asked about Proverbs 23:13's statement: "... if you beat him with a rod he will not die. Beat him with a rod and you will save him from the grave," Lawrence said:

"It’s a lie, because children who are beaten with a rod sometimes do die. Between one and two thousand children die every year in this country from corporal punishment. One hundred forty-two thousand are seriously injured from corporal punishment every year in America, according to the Dept. of Health and Human Services and the New England Journal of Medicine. So it can’t be taken literally." 11


See the Boston Globe article:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/01/10/campaigner_targets_spanking_tools_sale/

Nor are the "right-wing militants who string up naked children and flog them" (Huh? where'd you get that?)

www.corpun.com : Archive : 2001 : US Domestic Mar 2001

Atlanta Journal-Constitution, GA, 18 March 2001


Church faces abuse probe over whipping of children
By Alan Judd
Atlanta Journal-Constitution Staff Writer

Authorities are investigating a massive case of alleged abuse by parents of as many as 60 children from the same northwest Atlanta church. Already, state social workers have removed 19 children from the homes of three members of the House of Prayer, 1194 Hollywood Road. Another church member said Friday evening that social workers had indicated they soon would take 11 of his children. Atlanta police and social workers are looking into reports that church members systematically held down their children while beating them with belts and other objects - allegedly under the direction of the pastor, the Rev. Arthur Allen.

A 7-year-old boy told detectives that his uncle whipped him with a "big switch" at the church while three other men held him down, according to a police report. The beating left him with bruises on his abdomen and back, the boy said.

A 10-year-old boy told police that an adult beat him on his back at the church as another adult held his arms and two men held his legs. The boy said that Allen, the pastor, was "watching and telling them when to stop," according to the police report.

Allen said children from the congregation have been beaten at church, at school and in their homes. He said he tells parents to restrain their children "so that they would not hit the child in any vital spots to hurt the child." Church members said the punishment is appropriate. "We don't overly abuse our children," said Tabitha Houston, 18, who was married two years ago with what she described as Allen's "approval."

Atlanta Journal-Constitution, GA, 21 March 2001

Pastor, 5 followers arrested in child beatings
By Joshua B. Good and Ron Martz


Atlanta police on Tuesday arrested a pastor and five members of his church while social workers took custody of 22 more children, alleging they ran the risk of being abused.

The pastor and four members of the House of Prayer were charged with cruelty to children for the beating of two boys, ages 7 and 10. Another church member was charged with battery and reckless conduct.

The older boy had open wounds on his stomach and right side, said Atlanta police Lt. Elizabeth Propes, commander of the youth crimes unit. The younger boy had welts on his stomach and back. The boys told police they were held down at church and beaten with sticks, switches and a belt.




Atlanta Journal-Constitution, GA, 22 March 2001
Minister has prior conviction for beating
He's released from jail in latest case

The Rev. Arthur Allen Jr., was sent to jail in 1993 after ordering members of his church to beat a 16-year-old girl with belts and then taunting the bleeding girl when she cried. Now, the pastor of the House of Prayer church in northwest Atlanta is at the center of a massive abuse investigation that has led to the removal of 41 children from their parents' homes.

"He stood over me and said, 'I had you whining like a baby,' " the girl, Ivory Johnson, testified during a 1993 trial in DeKalb County State Court.

Allen admitted in court that he ordered the August 1992 beating - which he said may have lasted from 20 to 30 minutes. The beating continued, he testified, until the girl was "beaten into submission." The teenager had defied his authority, Allen said, and she "had to be beaten, or she would take over the church."


Children being punished were suspended in the air by their hands and arms and beaten with switches, sticks or belts, Dean said. Photographs shown to the parents in court showed welts that Dean said were between 1 and 3 inches long, including one she described as the shape of a belt buckle.

"I've really been painted a monster," Allen says. Allen hasn't found universal validation for his views, not only on disciplining children but also on other church matters, including his approving marriages for girls as young as 14. He has received little sympathy from state social services officials, who blame him for ordering systematic beatings with switches and belts that, in some cases, left welts and abrasions. And he has gotten little support from other ministers, even some who think the government may have overreacted in its mass seizing of so many church members' children.


Atlanta Journal-Constitution, GA, 23 March 2001
'They'd beat them for every simple little thing they'd do'
Michael Pearson
Atlanta Journal-Constitution Staff Writer

"I get nervous just talking about it," says 19-year-old Jason Bates, who says he and his sisters were beaten mercilessly until their mother took them out of the House of Prayer. Jason Bates doesn't go to church anymore. The church of his childhood was a place for fear, not a house of prayer. It was a place to be plucked from sleep for a whipping, for watching helplessly as his sisters' dresses were lifted to reveal their young bodies for a beating.

"They'd sometimes have kids back there lined up" for whippings, Bates said. "They'd beat them for every simple little thing they'd do."

His sister Joanna Bates said she was beaten when she was 12 after Allen accused her of being a prostitute. She protested being exposed to the congregation after the preacher lifted up her dress to spank her. " 'You're used to men seeing you,' " she quoted Allen as telling her. Linda Bates took several of her children out of the church after Allen prohibited her from visiting Jason in the hospital after he suffered severe injuries in a fire.

"It was like a cult. He controlled everything," she said of Allen.


Follow-up: 1 April 2001: Discipline or abuse? Church renews spanking debate

Atlanta Journal-Constitution, GA, 26 March 2001
Reader responses
Corporal punishment
Kids get bad message

In response to Frederick Zak's defense of corporal punishment ("Corporal punishment part of black American culture" Viewpoints, March 23): I disagree completely with his presumption that a little physical punishment produces a better citizen. Physical punishment simply sends the message that violence is an acceptable response to a situation. Nonviolent responses, such as restricting privileges, are a much better societal example. Second, violent punishment enforces behavior by associating bad actions with fear of further violence. Once you remove the fear (as an adult) there is no barrier to the behavior. Contrast this with the instilling of values: A bad behavior is avoided because it is bad, not because you might be hurt if caught doing it.

www.corpun.com Main menu page

© Colin Farrell
Page created: June 2001

The Chinese did not fight the United States in the Korean conflict. The US was a PART of a UNITED NATIONS force composed of many other nations besides the USA. Altogether sixteen nations, including US forces, formed the UN Force to repel invaders from North Korea and prevent them overwwhelming Southn Korea.

The US often speaks as if it was the only player at the table, which is not only inaccurate, but also unattractive.


M:)


Very true and I agree with you 100%. Here is a list of participating nations.

Note: All figures may vary according to source. This measures peak strength as sizes changed during the war.

South Korea 590,911
USA 480,000- including-- Puerto Rican 65th regiment
Britain 63,000 [1]
Canada 26,791[2]
The Philippines 7,000
Turkey 5,455[3]
The Netherlands 3,972
Australia 17,000
France 3,421[4]
New Zealand 1,389
Thailand 1,294
Ethiopia 1,271
Greece 1,263
Colombia 1,068
Belgium 900
South Africa 826
Luxembourg 44


Total: 941,356–1,139,518

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The._65th_Infantry_Regiment

If you will read what I wrote more carefully, you will see that I did not apply any characteristics to all Americans, only to some.
I did not characterise ALL Americans as extremists, as you charge.

You want to argue general semantics?
Let's see... you said:

That's whats wrong with America when it comes to other nations and cultures, hardly anyone knows diddley squat about them. Like the American who shot the Sikh garage proprietor in Phoenix after 9-11 because he thought he was an Arab. He wasn't a terrrorit, he wasn't an Arab, but he is still dead through abysmal ignorance and prejudice.
How is my thinking flawed when you write, "That's what's wrong with America..." and "Like the American..."?
Perhaps it is simply my perception that you imply, ALL Americans?


I made that plain enough so that a wayfaring man though a fool need not err therein.
Ouch. A fool, eh? Well, you're certainly entitled to that perception of my intellect.

Most conservative Christian sources which discuss the "rod" in Proverbs imply that it is a wooden stick of some sort which a parent should use to hit a misbehaving child, causing them pain, and thereby discipline them.




Yeah, a good scare tactic when you saw the result of your friends getting the punishment (no, I didn't inspect my friends butt. I am referring to the crying). I remember the fear and anticipation before the event. I received it only once for playing ball in the living room and breaking a vase; it scared me straight! But an hour later, it was like nothing happened and all was forgiven. As kids, whenever we were doing something we shouldn't (a dare), the 'yard stick' always came up and we'd stop. Quite a powerful tool when you can remember an hour long event 40 years ago!

Now that I have children growing up, I wish they'd bring it back!

The 'yard stick' as we called it was not a weapon- but in the wrong hands could be used as one. There is a right way and a wrong way. Your exert is the 'wrong way'!

The next time that I have to read or hear about an minority that was dismissed from a job because of their color... I will be sure to them that it is all in their heads... the next time a majority or a new arrival walks the american streets and feel it is their business to express an negative opinion about minority american... I'll be sure to tell them it is OK to treat some one with total hostility because of the color of their skin is not to your liking and because of that fact... therefore should suffer poverty and injustice... and the misrepresentation being broadcast by the media about such groups in America... since I walk the walk and talk the talk... I understand that racism is one of weakness in the foundation of this american society... How do you correct this problem... those that are responsible for this weakness... need to clean it up... donot to cover the eyes of those who are watching to see who is at fault... diversity training is needed for all of us... we should never hide because of the issues of weakness... just because it is to deep to handle mentally... those who wish to cover it up... remember all righteous things will come to light and all things done in the dark will soon show through when the light shines on it... bias is backed by the oppressor... this play ground needs to be repaired... never cover your eyes... look at the damage... is it not nasty... yes then clean it up... we as a nation are not sinless... I have no plans in being blood guilty about anything... I know the fight will cause a life... I have family that sacrifice a lot for the sake of human rights... the battle continues... never back down when you know you are right... yell it out loud... make sure of all things... I am not bonded to servitude... I will not close my eyes to the damage done to mother earth and the faith... and this is the reality of life in the real America... If you do not like it then ask those that are challenged by it on how to fix it... it hurts... yes... this nation brought forth some nice events in human history... but it is not perfect... that is why the words striving for perfection in used by Thomas Jefferson... we all want heaven on earth... need to address the problems of poverty, crime, education, morally... here... then guess what the world will notice and world will ask themselves can we do this at home... the answer is there a willingness to get rid of ignorance... if yes... now take this story and use the nations Iran an Iraq the same problem exist there... problems with their minority population... racism and nationalism... human right violations seems like a strong similarity... and with North Korea their issues are poverty... you are not eating... no one cares... nuke the world because no one cares... racism and nationalism... effective because someone or a people decided to close their eyes and say it is a lie...

It sounds as if we have a parallel between the middle east and asia and the hidden problems we have here which is often lost in the appearance of a free society. Our problems seem to be the same and our leaders be they American or North Korean don't seem to be able to address them. Maybe if we look a little closr the similarity with our problems are closer than we think. Could the solutions for them help us too?

Iranians do not wear the turban. Muslims wear a skull cap, rather like the Jewish yamulkah. You are confusing them with Sikhs from Punjab in India!

That's whats wrong with America when it comes to other nations and cultures, hardly anyone knows diddley squat about them. Like the American who shot the Sikh garage proprietor in Phoenix after 9-11 because he thought he was an Arab. He wasn't a terrrorit, he wasn't an Arab, but he is still dead through abysmal ignorance and prejudice.

The Koran is writen and read in Arabic, and there are no words in there that can hurt you any more than someone quoting words from the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament can hurt you whether the quoter is mad or not.

I'd rather my daughters marry decent Arabs than some of the wild men from the extreme conservative right wing militants who string up naked children and flog them, or who murder doctors and nurses and think they are doing God's will.


M:rolleyes:


So if this state of ignorance exists what do you see as the cause and what do you suggest as the remedy?

I just heard a news report that Iran is offering travel agents a stipend of $20 U.S. each for any western tourists they bring. Oh yea right. The terrorism tour.

We shouldn't let Iran keeping enriching its nuclear capability. I read where Iran is choking on its own fumes and is in need of nuclear energy. If they wanted only for energy reasons they would help themselves and comply to being monitored against warhead development.

================================================== =====
I hope they make considerable progress in Iraq. This way it wouldn't have been in vain.
God bless the soldiers. I don't know how they tell one sect from the other.

I hope this political season wanes bc I'm ready for a nice peaceful season. I think the U.S. needs a vacation.

Whose in charge of monitoring us against warhead development?

Whose in charge of monitoring us against warhead development?


The US has had warheads for what? 50 years.

When I first obtained my license to practice, I had to be judged by an experienced mentor.
When I first learned to drive, I had to be judged by an experience driver.

Don't you think that when you learn to blow up the planet, you should first be judged by someone that already knows how to blow up the planet?

The US has had warheads for what? 50 years.

When I first obtained my license to practice, I had to be judged by an experienced mentor.
When I first learned to drive, I had to be judged by an experience driver.

Don't you think that when you learn to blow up the planet, you should first be judged by someone that already knows how to blow up the planet?


Are you being serious or is this double entendre talk?

In any case, if I condemn a weapon as evil and not suited for others, wouldn't it be reasonable for me not to have it or at least be in the process of getting rid of it? Or if I recommend that others be monitored then why would I be an exception? Or better yet why should I be trusted when I refuse to trust others?

Communist China has nuclear weapons pointed in our direction right now and the USA is on friendly terms with that country. Cuba doesn't have nuclear weapons pointed at the USA and the USA is hell bent on reuining its economy to prove that communism is evil.

Excuse me but something just doesn't quite add up in all this.

Bc we don't sell them to terrorists? Beats me. Maybe it's bc we invented these weapons?


That's a good point about the selling it to people who might use them in that fashion.

Are you being serious or is this double entendre talk?

In any case, if I condemn a weapon as evil and not suited for others, wouldn't it be reasonable for me not to have it or at least be in the process of getting rid of it?

This 'weapon' ended the second world war and saved democracy. There was a race to create this 'weapon' and we won!

If we abandon this 'weapon' because it is evil, we may not be so lucky during the third world war!

I don't know about you, but I sure am glad we don't live like the North Korean majority!

This 'weapon' ended the second world war and saved democracy. That's a bit of a stretch isn't it? Not sure "democracy" was at risk.


There was a race to create this 'weapon' and we won!!Using mainly non-american scientists.

That's a bit of a stretch isn't it? Not sure "democracy" was at risk.



You may not have been sure... but at that time everyone else was! Although those scientists all knew how to speak English, I bet they are glad they didn't have to learn Japanese!

This 'weapon' ended the second world war and saved democracy. There was a race to create this 'weapon' and we won!!

If we abandon this 'weapon' because it is evil, we may not be so lucky during the third world war!!

I don't know about you, but I sure am glad we don't live like the North Korean majority!!




My point was that if we require something to be done then we will be expected to set the example ourselves. Make sense?


BTW

A third world war involving nuclear weapons would endanger all life on earth. So it's really hard to imagine a winner of such a war. Although I have no doubt that some humans will be born with the stupidity needed to start such a war.

These little dictatorship countries like North Korea, Veneswela and Iran don't care about winning. They just want to be heard.

We've seen with Sadam how much they are willing to risk!

These little dictatorship countries like North Korea, Veneswela and Iran don't care about winning. They just want to be heard.

We've seen with Sadam how much they are willing to risk!!


A third world war would involve many more countries than just Venezuela, Iran and Korea. That's why it's called a world war. Also, if indeed all these countries want is to be heard, then they really don't pose much of a threat and you would need to logically conclude that the president's reaction to them is unwarranted. Right?

About Sadam, I hope that you are aware that he was once a USA ally and that the USA helped him in his war against Iran by providing his regime with military aid. This was when Sadam was doing all the crimes he is going to be hanged for now. Isn't that a bit weird?

A third world war would involve many more countries than just Venezuela, Iran and Korea. That's why it's called a world war.

Humm... Japan and Germany ring a bell?

Of course if Japan had nuclear arms and no one else did, I'd probably be speaking and writing Japanese right now!

So if this state of ignorance exists what do you see as the cause and what do you suggest as the remedy?

Ignorance is the cause, education is the answer. The American school system has to take much of the blame for ignorabnce of other countries and cusotms and cultures. Mr Bush was surprised to learn how far away China was!<br><br>If a country embarks on imperialist adventures, it ought to know where it is going, what to expect, and something about the people it is conquering or influencing.<br><br>Likewise, a country that proclaims itself "The Melting Pot of Nations" ought to be conversant with much more than the lint in its own navel, and should understand the difference between a Sikh and a Muslim, apart from the obvious fact that the majority of each has darker skins than the average American. <br><br>Sitting in the dark and guessing who is who and what whilst holding a loaded hair triggered AK47 and nervously twitching to take a pot shot at anything one thinks could, perhaps, look like, or resemble, somewhat, an enemy is no way to live a full and rich life nor&nbsp; make a significant contribution to one's family, neighborhood, nation, or to the wider world.&nbsp; <br><br>Education admits light into darkness, and dispels fear, prejudice, and bigotry.<br><br>M:)<br><br><br>

Ignorance is the cause, education is the answer. The American school system has to take much of the blame for ignorabnce of other countries and cusotms and cultures. Mr Bush was surprised to learn how far away China was!<br><br>If a country embarks on imperialist adventures, it ought to know where it is going, what to expect, and something about the people it is conquering or influencing.<br><br>Likewise, a country that proclaims itself "The Melting Pot of Nations" ought to be conversant with much more than the lint in its own navel, and should understand the difference between a Sikh and a Muslim, apart from the obvious fact that the majority of each has darker skins than the average American. <br><br>Sitting in the dark and guessing who is who and what whilst holding a loaded hair triggered AK47 and nervously twitching to take a pot shot at anything one thinks could, perhaps, look like, or resemble, somewhat, an enemy is no way to live a full and rich life nor&nbsp; make a significant contribution to one's family, neighborhood, nation, or to the wider world.&nbsp; <br><br>Education admits light into darkness, and dispels fear, prejudice, and bigotry.<br><br>M:)<br><br><br>

Certainly, I agree 100% The educational system is to blame for citizen ignorance.
Unfortunately if the problem isn't perceived as such it will never be addressed. I personally don't detect any particular concern in that area. I guess when people aren't at the receiving end of the ignorance-motivated behaviors they tend not to notice such things--and the majority of the ignorant and those who are contributing to the perpetuation of the ignorance are not.

BTW
Bush really said he didn't know where China was? Just where did he say he thought it was?

The HTML <> doesn't work on this website. Try [ ]
That will fix the problem. It did for me at least.

How about the american press? I think they go a long way in feeding us facts the politician and the big interests want us too know and then give us the truth after they have gotten what they want and its too late to do anything about it. Weapons of mass destruction, my a$$. Love to see the sweet deal some fat oil people wll get when the sand clears.

How about the american press? I think they go a long way in feeding us facts the politician and the big interests want us too know and then give us the truth after they have gotten what they want and its too late to do anything about it. Weapons of mass destruction, my a$$. Love to see the sweet deal some fat oil people wll get when the sand clears.




Bush claims that he himself was misinformed.
I think some of the ones responsible for misinforming him resigned.
As for misleading press, true, the press sometimes misleads and I'm sure it does so sometimes under government pressure. Once something is tagged as a national security risk the press has to buckle under. For example, suppose the press is told that we are about to be hit by a comet and there's nothing we can do. The government might order the press not to reveal this for trhe sake of national security. Otherwise a panicked population might begin wreaking havoc. It all boils down to the citizen'e right to know vs the national interests.

These little dictatorship countries like North Korea, Veneswela and Iran don't care about winning. They just want to be heard.

We've seen with Sadam how much they are willing to risk!!

You could say exactly the same about GW Bush.

These small dictatorship contries are all led by fear.

Ask yourself, does Bush lead by fear??