Hi,

I divorced my kids' dad a few years ago, and he convinced both kids (12 and 15 at the time and now 15 and 18) to live with him. I did not have a good lawyer, so he got the house, the kids, child support, I pay insurance etc. My son has cursed me and screamed at me for leaving his dad since the night I left and refuses to visit me although I have a court order that says he must. My daughter would not visit either at first, and then I made her. She would come over some, but would not come over for more than a few days at a time. Dad always planned a vacation on my time in the summer and told her to chose, and she ALWAYS picks him. He is very manipulative. Anyway, my 15 year old (almost 16) daughter has not visited me in 6 months because I left her dad (that is the reason she gives me). She says if I loved her, I would have stayed with her dad like she wanted.

I was the one who took her to the doctor and bought her clothes etc even though I paid child support. My attorney advised me to send at least the medical bill for a biopsy my daughter had done, so I did send it and she has not visited since. Her dad did not pay so he is in contempt of court. He also says the kids do not have to visit and that all he is required to do is have them available when I come to pick them up, and whatever happens from there is between them and me. Well, my daughter has informed me and a sheriff deputy that I do not have full custody of her and cannot tell her what to do etc. Of course, the deputy corrected her and made her get in the truck. Now dad says he is getting married to a woman who lives in a town 300 miles from here, which is a prison town. There are 10 or so prisons in the town and a lot of riff-raff in the schools (lots of rape, shootings etc). He is saying he wants me to relinquish my rights to my daughter so he can move, but still wants me to pay for her insurance etc and wants me to pay him child support until he is ready financially to give it up. He does say this is not about money.

I can either sign the papers, which will stop the child support as I have NO rights anyway, or I can try taking him back to court. They say the judge is going to do whatever the child wants in this county, and she will surely say she wants to be with daddy. Should I sign the papers or go to court and ask for full custody? I have recordings of him telling me it is not his business if she comes to visit, that it is up to her etc. I have proof I sent the medical bills too. I don't want to just sign her over and let him move off with her, but she says she doesn't want to see me because I won't live with him. Any suggestions?

Thanks!

I am not sure if you will be able to get custody of your daughter or not, but my advice to you is NOT to sign over your rights to your daughter because the father wants you to. I would try to go back to court and fight for my child if I were in your situation. I don't know about the legalities, I just wanted to put my two cents in and give you my advice. Good luck with everything and I hope that someone can come along and give you some legal advice.

I am leaning toward fighting in court since he has broken basically everything in the decree and is in contempt of court all over the place. My daughter has no rules at his house. She comes and goes as she pleases with who she pleases at 15. I don't allow that behavior. I also require my kids to be respectful and hard workers. She was a good girl though. I bought her an expensive horse and took her to all kinds of events. I bought her clothes and anything she needed. I just don't understand how a girl could turn on her mom the way she has. She actually told me that she wishes I would die. Her dad said that to me some time back, but now he denies ever saying it. I really hope this is coming from him and truly not how she feels.

Ithink your daughter can gecide who she wants to live with oce she turns 16, until then the court will decide what's best and since you practically gave your children away I agree they should stay with there father.They obviously don't want to live with you.Thats your own fault.Your screen name suits you perfectly...

Holly23, the kids decide when they are 12. I hope you never have to live with a man that won't work, cheats, addicted to porn and gambling.

He took their birthday money to gamble with. I always had to work multiple jobs to support my kids because their father always wanted new trucks, boats... everything for himself. My daughter has gained 100 lbs since deciding to live with him. Sounds like it is good for her, huh?

Why would you sign away rights to your children?

In most states a non-custodial parent must sign to allow a custodial parent to move away unless the custodial parent has full physical and legal custody and even then a court might say you can't do it.

I'd say go to court and fight and ask for a guardian ad litem for your kids and a home visit from the court.

No a good mom wouldn't give up her gids no matter how extreme the circumstances are.. Only very few exceptions.. this is not one of them... Who says she wouldn't of gained that weight if she was still living with you.. yeah... Key words there that you said "Since deciding".She decided.And from where Im from its 16 excuse me.And I doubt that all that's true about your husband there's no way a court would give custody of two children to someone like that, who couldn't support them.

No a good mom wouldnt give up her gids no matter how extreme the circumstances are..Only very few exceptions..this is not one of them...Who says she wouldnt of gained that weight if she was still livin with you..yeah...Key words there that you said "Since deciding".She decided.And from where Im from its 16 excuse me.And I doubt that all thats true about your husband theres no way a court would give custody of two children to someone like that, who couldnt support them.

Holly23 you don't know anything about this woman or her situation, so you have no right to say that her screen name fits her. It is none of your business why she gave her kids up at the time. You don't know what the circumstances were. I would never give my daughter to her father, but I never went through a really nasty divorce, so you can't make those comments without knowing the history of the situation.

And either can you.Maybe she's not the victim, which I suspect,maybe he is.Her kids don't want to live with her! and she's trying to force them?Would you want your daughter to be happy?yes of course.Shes obviously only thinking of herself.

Holly23, the court in this small town gives the kids to whoever the kids say they want to live with. I did not GIVE UP my kids! He took them from me by manipulating them into signing affidavits that they wanted to live with him. My lawyer stood there and did not say a word. He was terrible. She would not have gained the weight with me because I spent lots of time with her and we rode horses etc constantly and she played basketball and all kinds of sports. She does not do anything at all now. He is gone all the time and she is lonely and bored.

SusanGPYP, I am not giving up custody, I am saying he wants me to give up custody. He has made my son so mad at me that he did not visit at all for 3 years, and now he is grown. My daughter still lives with him, and the moment I sent him some medical bills to pay half of (he never takes her to the doctor so I had to take her to try to get her some help) then he never let her visit again, and he did not pay half the medical like the decree ordered.

You see, he is getting married to someone 300 miles away, and decree says he has to bring her back each week. He encourages her to fight me when I come to get her every week for my visit and has not followed through with anything else in the decree, so I will never see my daughter again once he moves. However, I do have to continue to pay child support and insurance etc... but he won't let me see my baby. My daughter and I were best buddies... very close. He wants me to give up rights but keep paying for insurance so he doesn't have to bring her back. My point is this... I am not signing over rights, but he is taking her away and I want to fight him on it because he doesn't follow rules at all.

horriblemom, when I was your daughter's age, I absolutely hated my mom too and I didn't have a father or a brother who sat there and downed on my mom to me and told me bad things about my mom. We just didn't get along. So, I understand the pain that you are going through dealing with all of this. Maybe you should suggest in court that you and your daughter should have to go to counseling together. You need to have your daughter talk to a counselor or someone to see why she dislikes you so much. I know that I have turned my brother again my step dad by talking bad about him, so if your ex and your son are constantly bad mouthing you to your daughter, then I can see why your daughter treats you the way that she is. I am not sure of the whole reason why you don't have custody of them, but if I were 15 and I could either live with my mom who had rules or my father who let me do whatever I wanted, then I would deffinantly go live with my father rather than my mother. I wouldn't give up quite yet, you are still her mother. Have you gotten a lawyer for all of this? That might be wise of you to obtain a lawyer and present your case to them and go from there.

And either can you.Maybe shes not the victim, which I suspect,maybe he is.Her kids dont want to live with her!!and shes trying to force them?Would you want your daughter to be happy?yes of course.Shes obviously only thinking of herself.

Well, obviously you are wrong because we got more of the story and it sounds like she is the victim. I wouldn't want to live with my mom either if she had rules at her house that I would have to follow. She wants to live with her dad because she can go do whatever she wants whenever she wants. If I was given that choice at 15 then I would be living with my father too. She isn't thinking about herself, she is thinking about her daughter and her daughter's future. How do you figure that it is okay for a 15 year old to go out and do whatever they please whenever they please is a good decision? Oh yea, it is a great decision, lets let my 15 year old daughter go out until midnight running around with 20 year old men getting into trouble and doing drugs. Sounds like a GREAT idea! (SARCASIM) You obviously aren't a parent or a very good one at that, if you think that it is okay for a 15 year old to go do whatever they want. I was never happy as a teenager because my mom never let me do whatever I wanted to do, I had RULES to follow. So, my mother should have allowed me to do whatever I wanted to do so I could be happy? When you are a parent you look out for your child's best interest, whether it makes them happy or not.

Actually, I took my daughter to counseling every week for months, and she indicated that she had a perfect family and I left her dad and that is why she resents me. I covered all this stuff up for her dad. He sat in the bedroom with his door closed (so he could get on the internet and look at "things") while I worked and hauled the kids around and did EVERYTHING. He had nothing to do with the kids, so they never got any attention from him. If I suggested fishing, it was too hot, if I suggested swimming, he didn't like crowds. He had no interest. I took my daughter with me when I left, and the first time I sent her over for visitation they played cards and he paid lots of attention to her. I don't want her to have a bad relationship with her dad, I just want to be able to spend time with my daughter too. She indicated she wanted to live with him, so I was forced to accept it because she was 13 (and they can decide at 12). Now he is moving her away. He has a sort of narcissist personlity where he does whatever he can to hurt me. He knows that these kids were my whole world. The day he told me the kids signed papers saying they wanted to live with him, he told me "she signed the papers while she was still wet from the snowball fight ya'll just had".

In most states a non-custodial parent must sign to allow a custodial parent to move away unless the custodial parent has full physical and legal custody and even then a court might say you can't do it.


Can you back that up? In my experience where there is a visitation schedule in place that would be disrupted by the move, the NCP can block the move.

Do you think they can block the move even if she is refusing to see me? There is a visitation schedule in place, but he tells her it is optional so she will not go, no matter how strong I get about telling her to get in the car.

Can you back that up? In my experience where there is a visitation schedule in place that would be disrupted by the move, the NCP can block the move.

I think that's what I said. I have heard of courts allowing a parent who has full legal and physical custody to move (usually job related) but often they will say you still can't do it. When the NCP has joint legal custody they must sign.

First, I've moved this to the legal forum because your questions are about rights and legal actions, not really about parenting skills or issues.

Second, No state in the US allows a child to decide which parent they will live with in a custody battle. That decision is made by a judge and its supposed to be based on the best interests of the child. Some states do have guidelines on how much weight to put on the child's preference, but the decision is the judge's not the child.

Third, the father is correct that he can't force the children to go with you. But that he does have to make them available for your scheduled visitation. Forcing the kids to go with you, however, is generally counterproductive.

Fourth, in most cases the NCP can block a move if it interferes with a court ordered visitation. However, considering what you have told us of the court's predelictions, they would, likely grant the move and modify the visitation.

Unfortunately, I don't have good news for you. Your 18 yr old is an adult now and can do what he wants. Your 16 yr old is still subject to the visitation order, but if you force her to be with you, it will probnably make things worse.

It is unlikley that you can sign your rights over even if you wanted to. Courts are very reluctant to grant a Termination of Parental Rights and generally will only do so to clear the way for an adoption. I would definitely not volunteer to sign away your rights.

If you choose to fight, you will need a good lawyer who knows the local court. By the way, you should pursue any responsibilities he has under the divorce agreement. If he is supposed to pay a bill and didn't, by all means go to court and ask that he be cited for contempt and forced to reimburse you.

The only other piece of advice I can give you is not really from a legal standpoint. That advice is to let go. I would write letters to your son and daughter. Explain to them that you love them very much, too much to force them to do something they don't want to do. Tell them that, though it hurts you to be apart from them, you won't force them to visit. That you will continue to provide support according to the court order. That you only hope that some day they will understand why you had to leave their father and that they can forgive you and allow you to be their mother again.

I understand how hard this will be, but I think its your best chance of getting them back someday.

I think that's what I said. I have heard of courts allowing a parent who has full legal and physical custody to move (usually job related) but often they will say you still can't do it. When the NCP has joint legal custody they must sign.

Sorry, in rereading I see I did misunderstand what you said.

Do you think they can block the move even if she is refusing to see me? There is a visitation schedule in place, but he tells her it is optional so she will not go, no matter how strong I get about telling her to get in the car.

Yes they can block it.

Looks like my ex gets it all, again. I don't think anyone understands that I will not get to see them ever again. Story of my life... don't fight, do the right thing and things will come around. Nothing has come around for me.

Looks like my ex gets it all, again. I don't think anyone understands that I will not get to see them ever again. Story of my life...don't fight, do the right thing and things will come around. Nothing has come around for me.

Not that's not what I'm saying and frankly, I don't think its true. But I DO think the time for fighting has past. I think you needed a better lawyer in the original divorce battle. I think you needed to put up a more stringent fight at that point. But its clear from what you have posted that your son and daughter want little is anything to do with you at this point. You can't force someone to love you and want to be with you. Trying to do so is usually counterproductive and has the opposite affect.

You need to understand what the law will and won't allow. You need to familiarize yourself with the statutes governing Family court proceedings. You have to deal with this from a position of strength and that does not appear to be what you have done in the past. So you now find yourself in a position that forces you to give in to a certain extent.

So, yes, at this point in time, you do need to take the high road (IMHO) and back off. Forcing yourself on your children has clearly not worked in the last 3-4 years so why would you think that would change? Your children are on the immature side. They have been manipulated and brainwashed. Unfortunately, there is little you can do about that until they drow up more. I really do think, that if you take the high road as I suggested, let them know your door is always open to them but you will respect their wishes and back off, then they will come around when they awaken and mature.

Excuse me you gave me a red mark for saying that when your 16 you can decide, And then I said that's the law where I live and it is.Its a fact.So please refrain from giving me red marks when it's a fact ScotGem!!

Excuse me you gave me a red mark for saying that when your 16 you can decide, And then I said thats the law where I live and it is.Its a fact.So please refrain from giving me red marks when its a fact ScotGem!!!!!!


You said; "Ithink your daughter can gecide who she wants to live with oce she turns 16".

I know of nowhere, especially in the US where a minor child (under 18) is allowed to decide which parent they live with. If you believe that is incorrect, then please cite the law to back it up. Until you do I have to go by the facts as I know them. Please check your facts before you claim something is a fact, or be ready to back them up.

The court will usually take a adolescent's preference into account. While the court has the last word and makes the determination, the child's preference is taken into consideration if there are no other factors weighing heavily against the child's preference.

Excuse me you gave me a red mark for saying that when your 16 you can decide, And then I said thats the law where I live and it is.Its a fact.So please refrain from giving me red marks when its a fact ScotGem!!!!!!

A 16 year old cannot decide. Their opinion MAY be taken into consideration, but ultimately the court decides.

I saw, in aother thread, that you indicated you were in Ireland. So I did a little research. Custody of a child comes under the 1997 Children's Act (see Irish Statute Book, Acts of the Oireachtas, Children Act, 1997 (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0040/index.html))

The pertinent section is 11-25 which states:
Wishes of child.

25.—In any proceedings to which section 3 applies, the court shall, as it thinks appropriate and practicable having regard to the age and understanding of the child, take into account the child's wishes in the matter.

The act further defines a child as under 18.

So, as I and others have said, A child does NOT decide. A child can express their preference, but the decision is made by the court.

Again, please check your facts before posting inaccurate information.

I apologize

I apologize

Thank you! None of us is immune from making a mistake. But we do pride ourselves on the accuracy of the advice we give. The comments feature is mostly there for correcting errors of fact. Most of use WANT to be corrected when we make an error of fact.

I agree, I should have gotten a better lawyer originally, but I could not afford one because the lawyer I hired took all of the fee up front and I had nothing left. I had given EVERYTHING to my ex just to leave the kids alone.

I haven't forced anyone to be with me, but I do show up every time I have visitation and give them the opportunity to go with me. They refuse and I leave. In my decree it says I have to pick my daughter up at my ex's residence, which means I will be making a 600 mile round trip once a week for her to tell me no. Thanks for the advice. This just confirms what I already knew (but really didn't want to accept).

I haven't forced anyone to be with me, but I do show up every time I have visitation and give them the opportunity to go with me. They refuse and I leave. In my decree it says I have to pick my daughter up at my ex's residence, which means I will be making a 600 mile round trip once a week for her to tell me no.

That's actually good. If you can prove you show up regularly, even if they don't come with you, it still means that he will be materially affecting your visitation rights by moving. This means you have a better than average chance of blocking the move.

I have to ask then about the situation you mentioned with the sheriff and you telling her strongly to get in the car?

If my mother had been able to take the high road, I'm pretty sure my entire life could be different right now. But no. she would leave nasty voicemails for my aunt and uncle on the home phone that my brother and I could hear. She would send letters guilt tripping me about not seeing her (the week after she sat in court or counseling calling me a spoiled, lying b!#$&). Or she'd show up at my work to harass me. I'm not saying you're doing the same. But I'm trying to point out how sometimes the less you do is better. A nice note, short and sweet "i love you. my door is always open. i'm respecting your space..." might be your best bet right now. Don't make my mother's mistake and follow it up with I'm sorry, but I really should have to be saying so because xyz... or anything of the sort.

justcurious55, My ex kept saying that to hear him tell it, I don't show up to pick up the kids. At this time, my son was 17 and my daughter 14. My daughter got in my truck, and I went up to the house to invite my son to go too. At the door, I told him I loved him and would really like it if he would at least go out to eat or just sit and talk a while, and he cursed me and said the most aweful things you've ever heard.

I called a deputy to come over to document that I was there to pick up the kids. In this town, the sheriff does not get involved in domestic situations, but my attorney said I needed proof that I go to pick up the kids and to call someone over to document it. When the cop pulled up, my daughter jumps out of the truck and starts running up the stairs and I told her "get back in the truck". She told me "I don't have to do anything you say because you do not have custody of me! " So I pointed at the truck and said seriously "Get in the truck." She turned to walk up to the house anyway, and the deputy said "come here young lady. Is this your mom? You don't speak to your mom like that. Go get in the truck!" She later told me that she thought I had the cop come over to arrest my son because my son threatened to rip me to pieces, but I would never have called the cops on him.

I have always reinforced that I love the kids. I certainly would never leave ugly messages. On the night I left my ex, he told me he was going to blow his head off and let my son find him if I didn't get home right then. In the same conversation, he said he was taking my son and leaving the state and I would never see him again. On the same night, he told me that I would never draw a penny of child support from him, and I explained that I had supported the family for 16 years, and I didn't need child support from him to raise the kids... and then he would go to something else. He had forbid me to ever tell our children that I was married for a few months just out of high school, and on the night I left, he showed the divorce decree to my son and shocked him. My son had helped me move and completely understood as I always had to slip money back to him that his dad took for gambling.

The first visit he got with my daughter, she decided she hated me. She too was given the decree to read and things went downhill from there. I have shown up when I am supposed to, I've written letters, even made a video for my son telling him I love and miss him. I sent him $100 for his birthday and he threw it in the trash, and my ex made sure I knew that he collected and kept the money.

I've decided what I'm going to do. I am going to draw up papers that allow them to move wherever they want, but I keep my rights to my daughter so that if she ever wants to come and visit, she can and it will be at my expense. I will stop inviting her to come see me, and she can come to me when she wants to. I am turning it over to God from there.

I know that this must be very hard for you and I am sorry that you are going through all of this. I am glad to hear that you are giving it all to God though. God has a reason for everything, although we don't understand it most of the time. I just want to let you know that there is hope at the end of the tunnel. Don't give up on your kids and one day (hopefully) they will see what their father is doing to them. My mom used to talk down on my father all the time as I was growing up and it made me dislike her more and more the more she said. Maybe on day your kids will find out all the lies their father is telling them and they will finally see the truth. It is good that you are there for them and will be if they ever need you. Don't give up hope, and be patient. God will show you what to do, if you let him. Good luck and please keep us updated on everything. Again, I am sorry that you are going through this, I can only imagine how much pain your heart is in.

I suggest you make sure, through an advocate or someone, that she definitely knows you love her and want to see her when she's ready.

Teenagers are funny and when they only hear one side of things they tend to believe that side. Try to get a message to her that you love her, will always love her and will be there for her no matter what and she is welcome to open up communication at any time. Maybe you can make this a condition for giving your permission for the move. You have some leverage and may want to use it here.

Yeah, susangyp has a point there. While it sounds like you have a good plan, if you don't make sure the truth is explained to her, her father seems like the kind of jerk that's going to sit there and say something along hate lines of "your mom doesn't care. she signed away her rights...let's move now." even though its not close to the truth.

susangpyp and justcurious55, thanks so much for talking with me about this and making such good points. My fear was that if I stopped showing up and didn't try and fight for them (just my daughter now since my son is grown) that they would think I quit on them.

I told her this past Sunday during an hour long talk when I tried to pick her up how on the day she was born, I knew she'd be my buddy for life and that I will always be a constant in her life (as I've always been) and that she could call me anytime for any reason. I asked her if she believed I would show up if she called me to get her out of a bad sitation, and she started laughing and said "yeah, I know you would and whoever caused the bad situation would be in for it too!"

She kept looking at her feet and didn't want to look me in the eye when we talked. Every time she looked me in the eye, she smiled. Then she would make herself upset again by saying that I had gone on with my life and was teaching kids riding lessons again etc without her.

This sent me into a tailspin of confusion. Its like she has to work at being mad. When she was coming over, she swam, rode horses, played with her cousin, practiced shooting, shot off fireworks and seemed to have a great time. Only to later come back and say she didn't want to be a part of my "new" family. I bought her a car (but didn't tell her it was for her) because she is nearing 16, but now I am not going to give it to her unless she comes back around. I've had it for a year or so. I don't want her to think I'm trying to buy her love. It isn't a new car or anything, but it is a cute little car with a sunroof etc that she would have enjoyed. I'm just going to wait until my son gets settled in college and send him yet another letter telling him again that I love and miss him. If he ever speaks to me respectfully, I would be happy to help him with college, but I'm not going to help with him calling me names and being ugly. I will also write my daughter and confirm that again and let her know that all she has to do is contact me if she wants to see me.

Thanks so much... you've really helped me get through this tailspin. I guess I turned it over to God and tried to take it back. I hate it when I do that!

Yeah, I wouldn't give her the car. If she decides to come visit you later, maybe she gets the car while she is there. But only when there.
Sounds like you're doing everything you can. Hopefully they'll come around.

Your post #36 relates an interesting story. It makes it sound very much like the father is making things uncomfortable for her if she tries to have a relationship with you.

I agree not to give her the car, not even mention it. But the next time you are with her, I would try discussing these things with her. I would tell her that you don't want to come between her and her dad, just as you would expect he doesn't try to come between the two of you.

Go on to tell her that she is old enough to decide on her own whether she wants a relationship with you or not. You will still be there for her no matter what she chooses, but you will respect her choice.

If the father is trying to turn her against you, I think she will see the differences and come around.

Thanks for all of your advise. I just have to let go even though I wasn't finished raising my children yet. I have invited my daughter every day for a week (since she is really supposed to be here for visitation) and invited her to go an activity each day, and each day she says NO.

I told her today that I love her and that she can rest assured that if she ever invites me to do something, she will not get the same response from me as I got from her. I also told her that I would always love her and would be here for her if she decides to contact me and that she knows where I am. I told her I was going to back off and let her go since that is what she wants from me, but that I do love her. She responded by saying she loves me too. That was good enough for now. I think this is what I need to do.

Yes, I think that is what you needed to do too. It may take time, but I think she'll realize that you mean it.

By the way, someone earlier posted that your user name fits you perfectly. I never agreed. But I think this is proof that it doesn't. It takes a very loving mother to step back and give their children space and be able to say "ok, i love you but i'm going to leave you alone because its what you want right now."

Thanks. When I created this user name, my son had said that to me, and I was sad that day so I used it. I think that little girl that said that must have had problems with her momma and was just lashing out. Maybe things will improve for her.

Update: I failed to mention that my ex told me when I wanted to leave that he would make sure I would not have a relationship with my kids, or get to come to their school activities etc. He said he would move away and I would not see them again. He moved my daughter away (my son is grown now) and I have not heard from her. I send her cards and try to call her with no response, except that she does not want a relationship with me unless I put her "perfect" family back together like it used to be and to stop asking how her day was because it was causing drama." I am not a horrible mom, I only used that to express how they made me feel with their actions. I made sure they had everything they needed or wanted, and I've come to realize that they are treating me based on an example of how their dad treated me. They are entitled, self-centered, and very disrespectful kids.

I recently received an email from my son stating that he knew I could afford a laptop and that I needed to prove I wasn't worthless by buying him that laptop. That pretty much said it all. I have had it and these kids will not hear from me again unless they reach out to me. God doesn't beg us for our love, but if we reach out and ask, he will give it and that is my example.

Thanks for coming back and keeping us posted with what's going on. Stay strong and later your children will benefit from it one way or another and don't let them intimidate you. Always remember You're the parent not the friend.

Thank you for the encouraging words.