Outdoor elec. Need.. existing reg 110 outlet (on an AFGI breaker) G/B/W wires present & connected... what is proper wiring for the following please?. want to take G/B/W 12 gage wires and run in 1/2" schedule 40 conduit from this outlet to a dual waterproof light switch box on wall... approximately 10' away. One switch is to turn on/off 2 separate pillar lights (on same one switch - pillars about 15' apart) and the other (2nd) on/off switch on box to another/different/new 110 exterior outlet (to operate H2O fountain or other appliance/light). At one point it seemed as if I had wiring right based on tester... both light switch and outlet switch worked fine separately and trip separately, HOWEVER, when I attempt to turn both switches to operate 2 pillar lights and fountain at same time, everything 'trips' and not operate. How and where do I run elec. Wires to ensure all works properly please? Thank you for help ASAP as have pending Code inspection next week!

What 'trips'?

Chuck

[QUOTE=creahands;1767903]What 'trips'?
Hi. Thx. For reply. In attempting to turn on both switches AT THE SAME TIME (to operate 2 pillar lights and fountain new dual 110 outlet), the GFCI circuit these two referenced reg. 110 outlets are on (see orig. question description) trips or pops. I then have to go to garage (where GFCI outlet is that popped/tripped) and reset things. How do I do the wiring configuration so I can be sure to be able to turn on both switches at the same time or separately and ensure the GFCI does not 'trip'/pop unless there is a problem w/H20 or cut in line after the project is done? In short, I need a 'walk through description' of how [i.e. what G/B/W wires connect (via any relevant screw poles on terminals and/or pigtail splices) w/what G/B/W wires along the lines/wire runs to the switch, new 110 outlet and both pillar lights so everything works correctly and safely?] Thx.:)

What is the amperage that you are trying to pull through to the switches?

A 12 AWG wire will handle up to 20 AMPs. Check the amperage needed by the pump as well as both lights. If the total draw is more than 20 amps, that's your problem.

If you are trying to run a 30 amp breaker with 12 AWG wire, you need to either change the wire to #10 AWG or change the breaker to a 20 amp breaker to be within code.

Noted. Thx. At moment amp unknown and no meter, but could get if needed/necessary to check. HOWEVER, in my orig. post I used 'fountain' indicating the intended purpose of that outlet - but presently, more accurately, the outlet is empty (no appliance or fountain plugged in) when things trip/pop as described above. Lamps each are 120V 60Hz, max bulb 60 watt. Amp unknown. Also fyi circuit is on 2 pole breaker at box. One pole is on/off for xmas lights outlet and 2nd pole for these two outlets, back yard GFCIs x2, and garage GFCI x1. The only thing known to be plugged into this same GFCI line/circuit is an AC adaptor for my home alarm system.) When I plug in the elec. Tester (empty outlet) it reads the elec. Outlet is fine, however, when I turn on the light switch (w/their wires running through this same 110 outlet box) the tester trips/pops (i.e. the 2 'ok/correct' lights go out) and the two lamps do not come on. Does this help in helping me ? Thx. Also, how/where do I determine the amps of lamps and/or outlet? Thx. Again.

Okay, some basic stuff. The max wattage that can be used by a 20 amp 120 vac circuit is 2400 watts (E X I = P). Translated Voltage X Amperage = Watts. 120 X 20 = 2400 watts. I am limiting the circuit to 20 amps because NEC code states that 12 AWG or larger wires are to be used for 20 amp lines.

Both lights, when on, will only drain 120 watts total. That leaves with you with a total of 2280 watts for your circuit. For example, P/E = I (Power in watts / voltage = amperage. So 60 / 120 = 0.5 amps. Both lamps would total to 1 amp. Leaving 19 more amps available on the circuit.

To get the amperage/wattage needed by the fountain pump, you need to look at the manufacturer's label on the pump. It should be listed there.

Since you are seeing an immediate trip (fault), I suspect that you have a wiring problem.

At the panel, are you describing a single block breaker with two handles joined together? If so, you are describing a 240 VAC breaker. This alone could fry the entire circuit. What is the amperage shown on the breaker handle? Or do you have two independent slimline 20 amp breakers using the same slot? From the start of the circuit at the breaker through the termination of the circuit, what else is on this circuit?

Can you please clip some pictures of the breaker and the wiring at the junction boxes that you have made so we can see what is going on here.

Hi. Ok... not realize I could add pics... here are a few. Not sure of the order they will show in this thread, however, hopefully they will be self-explanatory regardless. Definitely they should give a better idea of overall project/issue at hand. Breaker this is on is seen in top left... the one in off position. In answer to your question, amperage shown on the breaker handle appears to be 15 (not notice this before, that's what the 15 means? Can I use the 12G wire and switch out the breaker to a 20 amp or not needed?)... appears to be two independent slimline amp breakers using the same slot... but both have 15 on handles. Definitely 120 vac circuit not 240. From the start of the circuit at the breaker through the termination of the circuit, what else is on this circuit?. the only thing plugged into same GFCI line (to my knowledge) is the power supply for home alarm system in garage (I included a pic. As can be seen this is the outlet that trips when I turn on lights and new outlet). FYI - please do not be concerned w/gray cable w/wires in pics. This is in large part the reason I am having to redo project to pass inspection. I now realize I cannot use this 3 wire direct burial gray cable in the 1/2" conduit. I only left and wired as you see in pics to continue testing the elec. Line and get correct before undoing. Once connections are correct I will draw pic, undo all, lay conduit, and re-feed G/W/B 12G wires throughout, and connect. Remember, no pump/fountain yet, but anticipated so amp/watt of pump etc. unknown. Right now I plug a vacuum and/or elec. Light etc. in new 110 outlet (or at moment/most often - until I get fountain) it remains empty. Like I shared, both switches seem to work correctly independently. Not able to turn both switches on at same time and anticipate wanting/needing to, so can't have trip. Yes, agreed likely a wiring problem... hence my question/need. Does the 15 amp breaker have anything to do with it? If so, how do both switches work independently but not together? Somehow going over 15 amps perhaps? Can I replace 15 amp breaker to 20 slimline breaker w/o issue? Must I replace both sharing the same slot to 20 each? Just a matter of switching them out or more to it? Or no need? Sorry... lots of questions. Thank you in advance. NOTE: 1st wired box in pic is existing on ext. of home... G/B/W coming out of home and going down conduit to start the run. 2nd wired pic is the dual switch box. Comes in up left side conduit and then 2 whites, 2 blk, 2 green go down rt. Conduit to new 110 box in other pic (on pillar currently empty). The configuration is in a pic w/o a box etc. From this box wiring I then need to feed the two pillar lamps. How everything should be wired, spliced, pigtailed etc. is what I am seeking for all to work. I have some more pics, but thread limits size so submitting after this entry. I look forward to your input, guidance, and expertise. Thx.

More pics to go with last submission herein.

All loads need to be either line side or load side of GFI or tripping will occure.
In your 2 gang switch box, it looks like power does not originate from house, but from underground or else from the house would go to 2 switches?

..

Additional pics

More pics of project...

Thx. Harold, my ignorance no doubt, but not following notes as w= my neutral, b= hots. Also 2nd pic.. this outlet is existing from house... 1 B/W/G coming in from back... grounds pigtailed... and 1 B/W/G starting down line to feed dual switch box (see left of pic). Yes two B wires u note in 1st pic... one is going light other to outlet further down line. . See additional pics. Ones w/red tester will be at new outlet... from there feed both lights on pillars. Outlet and pillars on separate switch at dual box. Seem to work independently OK, but wiring if off as can't have both switches on w/o immediately tripping GFCI in garage. Thx. So much for any input/guidance.

Something tells me that the two pillar lights were pre-existing with a single switch on the column.

That you wish to change the single gang switch box to a two gang box, add another switch to control an outlet you are adding.

Something also tells me that the switch that controlled the pillar lights only had one black and one white white wire. That would mean that it was a switch leg only and that power was being provide to the pillar light fixture itself.

If that is correct, put the original switch back the way it was and use the second switch to interrupt the circuit to the outlet that now comes from the outlet on the house wall.

Unfortunately, although perhaps understandable from your view and expertise, no... I actually built the smaller pillars and lights in pics... and installed the dual gang switch box, & new 110 outlet. Everything is new by me in project. I am drawing orig. power from PRE-existing outlet on front porch (which is on GFCI line from home build). All else I did in pics... wrought iron, 2 small pillars, lights, outlet box and dual switch box on larger pillar in pic. First time for anything of this nature... hehe... not bad aye? Lol... No pre-existing switch was there. Well, the only thing I am stuck on is this elec. Issue. Would it be possible for a reader/electrician to write out or draw out a detailed schematic showing proper connections, splices etc. for what I am trying to do starting w/one B/W/G 12AWG wire coming from orig. outlet (this was all there was before I started)? This would be most helpful at this point. Is the 15 amp breaker at box a problem? Or not an issue since both the lights and outlet work fine on their own? I just can't get both switches on (to operate lights and new outlet for future fountain) at the same time... w/o the GFCI circuit 'tripping'/popping. Thx. For any assistance ASAP... code inspection next week. I truly appreciate everyone's time and input.

Another pic of other pillar and light I added... the 2nd one (not in this pic but in other pic in thread) is to the right of this one. (I mention this to give you an overall visual of the project layout - in combination w/other pics in thread.) Thx.

Just trying to imagine environment to deduce what the problem could be. Your connection at house outlet looks good, switch wiring looks good. I take it that it is the ground fault of the GFI outlet that is tripping. Suggest that you look for nicked wiring that could be in contact with earth and make sure that the outlet (the one with the testor) is not shorting to ground. Could also consider whether the GFI, which must be upstream to the power providing outlet, could be faulty.

Speaking of that outlet, you have one cable providing power to the outlet. You have two other cables spliced together with wire nuts. I assume that the outlet is on one switch and the spliced cable is on the other switch and goes to the lights.

In the pic I see two bare ground wires and the green ground from the outlet connected together, where is other bare ground wire? Is it just the pic. Ground should not affect GFI tripping. Might if in contact with earth.

Edit: Never mind I see it in first pic. Not a part of this problem but you will have to ground both switches for inspector.

Just trying to imagine enviorment to deduce what the problem could be. Your connection at house outlet looks good, switch wiring looks good. I take it that it is the ground fault of the GFI outlet that is tripping. Suggest that you look for nicked wiring that could be in contact with earth and make sure that the outlet (the one with the testor) is not shorting to ground. Could also consider whether or not the GFI, which must be upstream to the power providing outlet, could be faulty.

Speaking of that outlet, you have one cable providing power to the outlet. You have two other cables spliced together with wire nuts. I assume that the outlet is on one switch and the spliced cable is on the other switch and goes to the lights.

*** yes, the ground fault of the GFI outlet that is tripping. Don't believe GFCI (yes upstream) is faulty... working fine before starting project. Your 2nd paragraph... if I understand correctly, yes this is right.

In the pic I see two bare ground wires and the green ground from the outlet connected together, where is other bare ground wire? Is it just the pic. Ground should not affect GFI tripping. Might if in contact with earth.

Edit: Never mind I see it in first pic. Not a part of this problem but you will have to ground both switches for inspector.

*** what u mean "have to ground both switches"? I believe they already are aren't they? No fear,, the only bare ground when project is done will be one coming from orig. house outlet. I am using 12G Green wire for all other grounds (w/sheathing) and B/W w/sheathing also.

Curious, I understand checking for nicks etc. exposure to dirt/ground, however, if the two switches work separately w/o issue and tester confirms this, how can a nick then effect things only when I try to turn on both switches... lights and outlet? Please advise. Thx. Once again.

Don't know. Scratching my head like you. You wiring is correct, assuming that exposed outlet and wiring will eventually be in a box. Incorrect wiring would either trip breaker or outlet and lights would not work.Got to look some where else for problem. Suggest taking outlet out and capping wires to see if that makes a difference. Lights are not connected yet are they? You have unusal problem. Try to physically isolate it.

Only see green ground wire on one switch.

Don't know. Scratching my head like you. You wiring is correct, assuming that exposed outlet and wiring will eventually be in a box. Incorrect wiring would either trip breaker or outlet and lights would not work.Got to look some where else for problem. Suggest taking outlet out and capping wires to see if that makes a differance. Lights are not connected yet are they? You have unusal problem. Try to physically isolate it.

Only see green ground wire on one switch.

*** yes one gr on switch as combined all grounds... did not seem to make a difference as I had one ground on each switch and still had the problem. I am guessing I should have a ground on each switch connection? Yes, all exposed wiring will be in box - just having to dig down 18" everywhere and then re-feed 12G wire. So I am cool w/15amp breaker at box? Also, breaker never trips to off, rather the GFCI 'trip's and I have to reset. Yes lights are connected. Like shared... lights work on one switch fine... outlet works fine on other switch. Just can't operate both switches at same time... this appears to be only issue as the tester says outlet connections are fine. I have tried all I can... hence resorting to this site/thread help. I am confident some master elec. Is out there w/a simple remedy! Lol. I appreciate your help and input. If u think of an answer/suggestion, Let me know ASAP. Thx.

Don't think you ar going to find it by logic.
Suggest the following.
Remove outlet. Test switches. GFI does not trip, its outlet. GFI trips, reconnect outlet using temporary wire to switch. GFI does not trip its wiring to outlet. GFI trips, do same thing to each light separately. Going to take that kind of isolation.

You said in an earlier answer you had 2 sets ofwire going down the right side conduit. The picture I see looks like only one black/white/ground going down. What is the wire that is coming into the back of you 2gang switch box? This wire does not look like the uf underground grey that you've been using.What does it go to?

you said in an earlier answer you had 2 sets ofwire going down the right side conduit. The picture I see looks like only one black/white/ground going down. What is the wire that is coming into the back of you 2gang switch box? This wire does not look like the uf underground grey that you've been using.What does it go to?

*** Hi Jerro... thanks. Please see additional post/info... should answer your questions. Any help would be appreciated. Thx.

These pics should help! Any corrections or input so I can operate both switches together w/o tripping GFCI would be appreciated! Thx.

Okay, I have several questions concerning picture #2;

The feed from the first picture is shown in picture 2 as "A", correct?
If this is a true statement, then the incoming feed line is not
Connected properly. The feed wire should be pigtailed with one wire
For each of the switches. What I see there is a three wire pigtail with
The source (feed) line going to the top of the switch and the
(switched leg going into the pigtail that feeds the other two switches.

What I would expect to see is the feed line "Hot" pigtailed to the
Supply wires for each of the three switches. One wire would go to
Each of the switches. I prefer to use the supply lines on the bottom of
The switch. The switched leg would connect to the top switch and
Feed the device to be energized. It doesn't matter which wire goes
Where, but I prefer to us the bottom as input to the switch and the
Top as out flow from the switch.

You need to run a black /White/Ground to each device you want the
Switch to control. Do not connect the white wires to the switches.
Pigtail the feed white to the returning whites from the devices.

Do you have a multi meter or Ohm meter to verify the connections as
You make them?

From what you said and the photos your wiring sounds correct. The first thing I would try is to unplug your security transformer you have plugged into the gfi and see what happens when you turn both switches on. If that is not the problem then take both black wires going to lights and new recept and put on one switch and see if that trips the gfi. If that trips. Take the new recept off and cap each wire separately and separate the spliced wires you spliced close to new recept and cap each wire separately and see if this trips gfi when you turn on switches. If it does then you most likely nicked both wires somewhere between the switches and the new recept.

I would test each light post on the load side of GFI separately, to be sure fixture not getting a neutral elsewhere, and there is no ground fault.
Then Install switches(switches will not cause the problem).
Then have the gfi pigtailed from the power feeding through, so only the receptacle is protected. Light don't have to be.
I would determine the problem, each load separately.
Maybe open the light fixtures and make sure bulb shell gets power from hot and neutral, not ground or connected to ground.

Cwbuddy, I just saw in your 10:58 6/1/09 post that shows the neutral separated from the other neutrals.
ALL lights(loads) MUST use either hot and neutral on line side OR load side. Your neutrals need to be tied together.
Your close.

Hi everyone... thank you sooo much for the effort and info. In posts. Well... for all of us scratching our heads, the problem is now solved! YIPPEE! Anyone want to know how? :) lol... Well I never knew GFCI outlets come in 15 and 20 amp versions (thought all were the same!). I went on a HDepot run and someone posed this as an idea. The orig. GFCI in the garage came w/the house and all was fine - before I started my project. HOWEVER, me adding 2 lights on pillars and the new 110 outlet evidently 'upped' the overall amps.

In short, I switched out the GFCI outlet in the garage... to a 20 amp one. FYI - Either the one in there was only a 15 amp one or it was a 20 amp but faulty. I am guessing it was a 15 because it tripped/worked fine before my project. This wiring situation was driving me crazy, but switching out the garage GFCI seems to have resolved the issue. So my wiring was correct as pictured so it would seem. Now, both switches work independently AND I can now have both switches on at the same time w/o tripping the GFCI (unlike before)! Great! Anyway... thanks. Again for everyone's time, effort, and help. Just wanted to let you know I had success thanks. To your input and stirring my thoughts to think both outside and inside the box... literally and figuratively. Perhaps this experience/info. Will help someone else in their electrical/home project endeavors. Sure would save major time and heartache... trust me! :) All the best.

Wait a moment!

You need to make absolutely sure that all the wires starting at the new breaker through to the end of the circuit are all 12AWG wires.

You cannot place a 20 amp breaker on 14 AWG (15 amp) wire. It is a fire hazard!

Wait a moment!

You need to make absolutely sure that all the wires starting at the new breaker through to the end of the circuit are all 12AWG wires.

You cannot place a 20 amp breaker on 14 AWG (15 amp) wire. It is a fire hazard!

Hi donf, thanks. For the note of concern... for clarity... I did not change the breaker at the box... this remains 15 amps. I only changed the GFCI in the garage. Please see new pic and info. For two questions based on your answer above. Thx.

Don's point is that you cannot use a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit.

While not recommended, you can use #12 wire as an extension, but it is still only a 15 amp circuit due to the 15 amp breaker and the #14 wire.

Don's point is that you cannot use a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit.

While not recommended, you can use #12 wire as an extension, but it is still only a 15 amp circuit due to the 15 amp breaker and the #14 wire.

*** thank you. I got the 2nd half of your post. Regarding the receptacle... according to the info on sticker of each recept (old one from garage and new one just put in) they both are 20 amp GFCI recept. (see posted info. Above for details). Perhaps just replacing recepts - 1 v 1 - fixed the problem because somehow the orig. recept. Was faulty somehow? Your input/suggestions?

If somehow the recept changes things 'wrongly' and I cannot change as I have... please... what do I need to do to fix the problem/need at hand? (see orig. post). Thank you for your feedback ad expertise.

NOTE: If not OK as is... fyi- the orig. 20 amp gfci in garage came w/the home.. it is a '06. So appears builders put in this 20 amp gfci w/14 g wire on this line and to breaker. Does being a GFCI recept make it OK as compared to just a normal 110 recept? If not, how/why they use 20 amp gfci w/14 g wire if not OK and fire hazard? What do I do to fix the problem please... with least effort/cost/time? Thx. Respectfully, if at all possible, it would be great if you could please address each of my above questions separately so I can further understand, fix the problem, and avoid repeating info/questions in thread. I have a code inspection next week, so time sensitve request. Thank you again for your time and expertise. Truly appreciated.

My concern is that if you place a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp line you could be heading for trouble.

Because the physical design of a 20 amp receptacle is significantly different than the 15 amp design you run the risk that a 20 amp device may be plugged into the 20 amp receptacle. Pop goes the breaker.

My personal suggestion is that you replace both GFCI receptacles with 15 amp so that error cannot occur.