Help! Our private water company says we used 240,000 gallons of water in 30 days. We live in Phoenix, AZ (desert). There's no standing water on the ground, plumbers have verified we don't have any leaks, the meter was read correctly, we were home (just the 2 of us) all month so no-one stole the water. Is it possible for a 15 year old meter to just advance 240,000 gallons when the water did not go through the meter? The water company is replacing a lot of pipes in the streets on their side of the meter. Could all this construction cause our meter to malfunction? We need help. The bill is almost $900. Thanks

At that rate the meter would have to have 5.5 gallons of water going through it ever minute of every hour for 24 hours a day for the entire 30 days. That is close to the amount of water that will go through a full 3/4 inch pipe at the city water pressure rate.

I think you will get a hugh reduction on your bill, if not ask that they get that meter tested and show you the results.

The water meter is fine. The problem is that the water meter counts air as water.

The utility has to pro-rate your water bill based on previous use. The construction is the likely cause of the problem.

There are air eliminators that can be installed before the meter.

PS: Hire a smarter plumber

I'm definitely confused here all...

Wouldn't a faucet or pipe have to be open past the meter for the meter to register water or air...especially 240,000 gallons? This would mean that a faucet or pipe was open for a lonnnggg time in jlarsen's house letting air out from the system..? I don't know guys... but I'm not buying it... ;)

How often did you have to go without water as they worked on these pipe jlarsen? Did they drain the pipes down from your house by opening faucets in the house and then close them and purge the lines after they worked on the lines?

Although I am sure that you would have noticed this... I wonder if it is possible that the water department hooked onto your outside faucet and then ran hoses to feed other neighbors or equipment or something else weird like that. I have seen this done many times in my area, but they usually drop the meter for time of construction and then bill using average usage per month. I know this is far-fetched, but I just can't think of anything else that makes sense here.

After that I want to know what the water department thinks about the figure letmetellu posted... 5.5 g.p.m every minute of every day for 24 hours a day for 30 days..?

Let us know more here...

MARK

If I were to cut my main supply I'd be lucky to get 5.5 gpm for 30 days.

My bet's on a meter malfunction. My meter gave me a excessive reading one month.
I complained and had them replace the meter. The next months reading was normal.
I then took the readings back into the Water Department and demanded a adjustments on my water bill. They didn't like it but the numbers don't lie. So you did call and have them install a new meter and check the old one out didn't you?
Let's hear back from you. Tom

Water company usually knows your Average per day, per Month. If you call them and present them with the problem, they should adjust your water bill to your Average.

In my area, DWP adjusts your bill even when you had - let's say - break in water main on your property and as result, meter registered lots of water "usage" before the leak got discovered and fixed.

Hey Milo... in my area they tell you... "if your meter measured it...you pay for it period (both water and then 3 times water = sewer)"... broken pipe, running toilets, floods or not!

Nice to know some water companies can be reasonable... ;)

Hopefully, Jlarsen's company is like yours!

I'm thinkin' faulty meter as well, Tom!

Thanks for all the responses - the private water company says we have to pay the bill. Period! The meter was tested and it tested within allowable ranges. A new meter has been put on and it is accurate. Pretty frustrating that I'm having to prove what might have happened. I'm being told that it's almost impossible for a meter to surge ahead like this. Does anyone know about air going through the meter instead of water? Registering that much (240,000 gallons), wouldn't we have noticed air coming out of the faucets in the house? Regarding the construction - water pipes are breaking throughout the subdivision - the pipes that go from the main line under the street to the individual meters. The pipes have not burst directly in front of our house. Thanks everyone. I appreciate all the help. Oh, the local ABC news station came to the house yesterday and they're going to do a story on this.

Involvement of TV station may help you in this situation. I am sure your water company doesn't want to get bad publicity. You could also contact local Consumer Protection Agency who could look into this matter on your behalf. Let us know how it got resolved. Thank you. Milo

If that's the case and there are a lot of water mains breaking then I truly believe that you have a water issue.

The first thing you need to do is use the leak detection feature of the meter. Observe the dial with no taps running or even overnight. That will show that there is no leak.

The meter was checked for calibration, so that eliminates the meter.

Through process of elimination combined with the knowledge that there have been lots of mains breaking, I still believe air is the problem.

Have something similar to this EASB-JR Air Separator - Bell & Gossett world leader in supplying the Heating/Ventilating/Air Conditioning (HVAC) industry. (http://www.bellgossett.com/ProductPages/Parts-EASB-JR-Air-Separator.asp)

Installed by the water company, before and after the meter.

If they will not do that, then ask for two meters for a trial.
Arranged as METER + SEPARATOR + METER

A side note:

Pipes running underground in the house after the meter can cause flows that you cannot see, but the leak detection feature (small dial) of the meter will see it.

I know I'm disagreeing with all of the plumbing experts.

This link is even better guys:

http://www.arivalves.com/US/US_PDF/NewPDF2008/UsC-M040.pdf

This is an interesting read http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/pdf/dw/publications/ontap/2009_tb/water_meters_DWFSOM67.pdf

In the sense that it states that water meters typically slow down as they age.

It also defines some of the principles that the water meter operates.

That might show how either air or pressure surges can cause eroneous readings.

I truly believe that you have a water issue.
KISS, I'll give you the reasons I don't think it's either a water or a air issure if you'll tell me why you think it is.
1) 240,00 gallons of water in 30 days just got to surface somewhere so it can be seen and even if it didn't the pressure drop in the OPs house couldn't be ignored.
2) Private water company sez, "ya gotta pay up" even they got to know that the monthly ruseage is way out of line. Now would you trust then when they said the meter wasn't at fault?
3)Mark nailed it when he pointed out that if it were air all the faucets in the house would sound like one humongous fart when turned on. No complaints either about lost pressure, (hidden leak) or air in the lines, ( no flatulence complaints either).
By the process of elimination, what does that leave?
Your turn! Regards, Tom

KISS,

I don't see you disagreeing here... just presenting another perspective and we always appreciate that!

It is certainly possible that there could be a leak in an underground pipe... but as jlarsen said, they have had plumbers confirm no leak... so we had to assume that they looked at the red needle (if present) already... or at least you hope they did... huh? Maybe they don't have a meter with needle.. maybe it's a meter without that feature?

Anyway, if there are any pipes that go underground after the meter jlarsen then my best I would have to figure for underground leak, too...

But as far as air... I still say you would have to have a faucet (or some other valve) open for air (or water) to register at the meter.

Finally, I also think it is possible that the water department hooked onto their house and maybe fed other houses while they were at work (everyday) and forgot to disconnect the meter... maybe that, too... hmmm..? I would at least present it as a possibility and check with the foreman running the crews at that time.. see if it's possible..?

Otherwise... faulty meter... needs to be tested by others... tough one here guys!

Just thinking aloud...

MARK

Wow - I'm very impressed with all the dialog and help you-all are giving me. Thanks. I think Massplumber2008 sums it up "tough one here guys". To answer/confirm some issues - yes, the meter had the small triangular dial and it was not moving at all when we got this bill. We have a new meter now and everyday for 20 days now it's been registering 300-400 gallons-our normal usage. This, I think, confirms - no leak - 'cause a leak of this magnitude wouldn't just stop would it? We don't think the water co. or anyone else hooked up to our outside faucet. 240,000 gallons would take quite a while to load up and we're not gone that much and the neighbors would have noticed something odd. There's a lot of older retired people on our street. I've talked to Sensus, the manufacturer of the meter, and they have said it's possible the mechanical meter somehow advanced forward - it's very, very rare, but it's possible. Guys, that's the only thing I'm coming up with that makes any sense. Have any of you ever heard of this happening? If so, how do you convince a water company that is what happened? I'll keep you-all posted on the ABC news station and what they decide. Thanks again.

In Chicago the larger newspaper has a "Whats your problem" column and intervene for problems like this. Call your paper too.

Have any of you ever heard of this happening? If so, how do you convince a water company that is what happened?
As I said in a earlier post.
" My meter gave me a excessive reading one month.
I complained and had them replace the meter. The next months reading was normal.
I then took the readings back into the Water Department and demanded a adjustments on my water bill. They didn't like it but the numbers don't lie."
Good luck, Tom

Interested to know how this turns out.

I believe the utility has meters checking on branches, 240,000 gals is a lot of water to miss, but if their main broke then all bets are off.

Maybe the burst is that one rare event.

The type of meter matters too. Just think of a paddle wheel and, what if, someone hit it with a large pressure burst of air. Paddle wheels just keep on spinning.

At least the meter manufacturer recognizes that there is a chance of a rare event. That's good.

The farting makes sense too.

I guess we have rupture of main causing a pressure burst AND, I suppose, you would have to have a tap open at the same time.

Kiss brings up a good question... What type of meter do you have, and how does the department read it, do they read the actuall meter, or do they have a scanning device that reads a senser.

I live in Ohio and our city installed the Sensus water meters which use the scanning devices for reading usage about 2 years ago. I have now have had 2 incidents of unexplainable, large bills ($1,000 & $600). I am at my wits end and trying to work with our water department is useless. I have talked to Sensus who indicated it is possible that, since these new meters are electronic/magnetic devices - they could be affected by some type of outside interence. I would really like to know if anyone has been successful in proving that these meters are capable of malfunctioning. I'm wondering if I need to put a letter to the editor in our local paper asking for others who have had this problem to contact me - maybe a class action law suit is in order...

To LCOHIO,
Our private water company was adamant that we pay for the 240,000 gallons of water - which we did NOT use. I got the media involved. The local ABC station came to the house and did a story - two local (small) newspapers wrote front page stories about the water usage. We basically made the owner of the private water company look like a greedy fool. The meter definitely malfunctioned. It was a Sensus Meter. I spoke with one of their engineeers outside of Pittsburgh, PA. I believe his name was Scott. The private water company eventually sent our meter back to Sensus for an evaluation and their evaluation was that the meter probably malfunctioned because of dirt in the lines. It was at that point, the owner of the water company said we didn't have to pay him. So - that's what worked for us. I recommend getting the media involved. Good luck!

Thanks so much! Our water is provided by the city and they are going to send our meter off for testing - I paid them $150 for what I felt was normal usage but am waiting for the test results before settling up the rest! Thanks again!

My meter jumped 4500 gallons in 24 hours and there is no leak at all as a professional guy just checked. And now it works at regular speed ! What happened? I was in touch with the customer service during this time and 6 days showed 700 gallons but last night it jumped 4500 gallons! I am terrified.. Can anyone change numbers? Or meter malfunctions? But then why only yesterday while I was working with customer service? Why it never happened before and not happening now?

I have a very strange situation.
I was taking reading on almost everyday to see how fast the numbers are moving.
2 days later it showed 200 Gallons
6th days 700 gallons which is too high since we did not do laundry and used dishwasher just 1 or 2 times

I kept making conversation with customer service

Then on 7th day it jumped 4500 gallons!! I was shoked ! Customer service said there must be a huge water leak.. I called a professional and he shut off main line and meter stopped! He said this means there is no outside leakage
Then turned on to check all toilets and checked everywhere inside and found one very negligible leak in one toilet which was slightly overflowing, like just you can wet you finger... so it was very small... worst case it can add 1 or 2 gallons a month...

So, the question now is, how can it jump 4500 gallons in 24 hours?

Any of your help is highly appreciated...

That's a considerable jump in reading. Are you sure you interpreting numbers on water meter dials correctly ? Most of the time, meters are reliable and give you good read outs.

If that happened in my house, I would check my water main between meter and house first. Also, if you have irrigation system at your property, water main may T-off underground away from your water main - but before it reaches house -- and than continue to the opposite side of the main structure to reach irrigation valves.

Meter would be the last thing I would question.

Do the following test: Turn Off main water valve at the side of your house while leaving water meter turned ON - meaning, water main will remain under pressure. Go to the meter and see if it is registering water flow.

Back to you. Milo

I see you posted same question under two different posts with the other post being under discussion. However, do the test I suggested anyway. You want to be sure there is no leak on your side of the meter. Back to you. Milo

Water meters count air too, unfortunately.

Toilets, washer water inlet valves, water backed up sump pumps, Water heater over temp/pressure valves and pranksters are a possibility.

A quick check, flow through a 3/8 orifice with 60 PSI is about 1300 gph, so in about 4 hours you used a lot of water.

The toilet float could have stuck. Inspect the tank for possible tangles.

There are fill valves which won't generally stick if the flapper doesn't seat or gets tangled. That's what I used the last time.

Rocks in the water line from flushing can also cause issues with the valve.

That's just some ideas.

Thanks for great info. I have a city / county provides services. I am anxiously waiting today's reading. It still shows that I have used only 30 gallons!! I have an irrigation system but I keep it OFF. Today's reading will tell if its malfunctioning. I plan to go see the manager in county... lets see what happens.

My meter is like Odometer - manual reading.

I am thinking to install cameras around the house now to prevent any theft if there is any. Also, putting a lock on my out side outlets, and wonder if I can lock the lid of my water meter and let the guy knock my door when he comes. Request city to review my case. Take second opinion to check any leaks.

Similar thing happened in my last home... bills slowly went higher and got a huge last bill when moved out then new owner got normal bills for 2 years so far !

As I understand, city / county can argue that I may have left something open all day and all night ! Or may be someone stole your water ! So one time spike is difficult to prove ! And it can happen every month as well if you think logically ! I don't mean people are crooks but trying to find the real reason and fairness.
I don't even live 4-5 days a week in the house. So I know something definitely went wrong in last 24 hours.

I would contact the city and request that they replace your meter and take the old one in to be checked. What makes you think someone's tapped into your line and is stealing your water?

here is no leak at all as a professional guy just checked.no leaks in the house and the irrigation system is shut off. My take is that your meter developed a glitch and slipped a cog. Please keep us informed of any more develops Good luck, Tom

I see you posted same question under two different posts with the other post being under discussion. However, do the test I suggested anyway. You wanna be sure there is no leak on your side of the meter. Back to you. Milo

Sorry, I replied in other thread...

Here...

My meter jumped 4500 gallons in 24 hours and there is no leak at all as a professional guy just checked. And now it works at regular speed ! What happened? Why it never happened before and not happening now?

Does anyone know about air going through the meter instead of water?
I don't think that's it and here's why. To kick the reading up 240,000 gallons you would see compressed air shoot out of every cold water tap every time you turned it on. But you already know this. My bet's still on a faulty meter, I would do what I did when I had the same problem. I waited a month and the took the months bill before the excessive use, That bill and the bill the month after witch was normal. Since I don't have a swimming pool or a sprinkler system they saw my average usage and adjusted the bill.
I like Milos idea of going public. Put some heat on the greedy Water Company. Good luck, Tom

Hi. I am having a similar problem... haven't had the meter tested but have verified that there are no leaks for the last 2 months. The utility insists we have used 130000 gallons in one quarter when we usually use 10,000. County employees we need to create a leak and have a plumber certify that it is fixed to get a rebate. I hate to do that... what if the meter malfunctions again? And I hate to have the meter tested... what if it doesn't malfunction again? Water workers say the analog numbers can occasionally stick together--the tens to the hundredths place or something? What happened in your case? My bill is $1500.