Does Christianity condone torture in some circumstances?

Im my own type of christian, I'm not really part of any denomination.

But in my own opinion, as a christian I would say no.

But I can't speak for others and other types of christianity.

Sorry I can't be more help

No.

De Maria once justified torture here on this board in certain circumstances. Is that a Catholic position?

It saddened me to read that more than 50% of "christians " in America said that torture would be justified in certain circumstances. If you can't or won't do something yourself, you cannot condone others doing it. Can these same "christians" stand up and say, "I will personnally torture someone." If they can, they had better check their beliefs against what the Bible says. Jesus says, "when you do it to the least of these(humans) you are doing it to me."
No one in favor of torture has been tortured. No one in favor of abortion has been aborted. THINK people.
Sorry, I rant sometimes. It saddens me that people are labeled "Christians" by the media simply because they went to church when they were little, or their parents were or that they "believe in God" and don't follow some non-christian religion.

Does Christianity condone torture in some circumstances?

Athos - I think you might be incorrectly tying two ideas together: 1) the individual and his personal life as it relates to God and mankind; 2) the government and its role and function as it relates to people.

At a personal level, torture is reprehensible as an action against my fellow man because I am violating the very principle Jesus taught which was to love my neighbor as myself. In fact, I am taught to turn the other cheek to insults and in some cases, physical harm (but that's a different discussion).

Now, at the level of government there exists a different order and responsibility with respect to people of a society. The government functions differently than you or I at a personal level. Government is responsible for creating laws that promote orderliness and justice and God is behind these institutions. Here's a quote from Paul in Romans 13:

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience."

My point in quoting this passage is to bring to light a few ideas.

1) God is behind the institutions of government.
2) Whoever resists the government's authority—whoever goes against the law—resists God.
3) Whoever persists in resisting the government—by extension, God—will incur judgment.

Now at the interpersonal level, you or I do not have God's authority to carry out the same justice that the government has. So in this respect, for me to enact some form of justice upon my fellow man would go beyond any authority granted to me from God at an interpersonal level. The authority God has granted me as an individual is to love my neighbor as myself. If, at an interpersonal level, someone has committed a crime against me, then I have to leave it in the hands of the authorities to carry out any justice. The right of self-defense is something different than what I am talking about here. I am merely saying that when someone wrongs me in way that does not require me to defend myself or someone else's life, I must defer to the higher authority.

At the governmental level, the government is a terror to those who do evil, as Paul puts it. My thought on this is that government's role against evil is to punish it, so that is why Paul refers to the government as a terror. Perhaps that conjures up a lot of mixed ideas and emotions but I believe all that Paul is trying to convey here is that justice is to be expected from the government against criminal wrongdoing…so it is a terror in the sense that if you do evil, you ought to be fearful of what may happen to you.

Is torture right? Again, it is without question wrong at the interpersonal level—it is not right for you or me to torture people. Is it right for the government acting in an official judicial capacity to torture? Well, the bible does not seem to expressly forbid the government from doing so nor does it seem to make allowance for it. To me it seems that the government has the authority to exact justice in a way that would secure peace and orderliness for the greater good of the society in a manner consistent with that authority. Ultimately, it seems difficult to say concretely what the government can or cannot do with respect to its function as a “terror to those who do evil.” But for the sake of the original question, we must always keep in mind that there is a distinction between Christian virtues at the interpersonal level and the authority of government acting upon its God-ordained function as a “terror to those who do evil.” We must always make that distinction in order to avoid confusion.

And, Jakester, if the government uses "enhanced interrogation" (i.e. torture), not to PREVENT imminent acts of terror or to collect actionable intelligence, but to INVENT evidence to declare war to further the greedy interests of those in charge?

And, Jakester, if the government uses "enhanced interrogation" (i.e., torture), not to PREVENT imminent acts of terror or to collect actionable intelligence, but to INVENT evidence to declare war to further the greedy interests of those in charge?

Wondergirl - I totally understand where you are coming from and I agree that for the government to "INVENT" evidence is wrong. Whatever action the government takes it must take with the truth as the backdrop... is what it is doing being done out of falsehood or from the truth? Unfortunately, Wondergirl, we do not always know what is going on behind closed doors... whether what is being done is done out of a lie or the truth. God knows, though... he is not fooled and justice will be served one way or the other.

So, I would expect that the government ought to hold itself accountable in its actions and not hide its real intentions behind righteous-sounding rhetoric... it needs to conduct itself in light of the truth.

Lastly, I have one question for you. Totally off-topic, but how does coming to a complete stop at a stop sign make the world a better place? The only thing that will make this world a better place is for Jesus Christ to come back and take his rightful place as king and rid the world of sin and evil... the reason we as human beings cannot make this world a better place is because of the sin in our own hearts. The gospel promises that one day all will be made right, though.

I agree with you for the most part Jakester, I'm impressed with the maturity and thoughtfulness beyond your years.
However, IF the government uses torture and the tortured person dies(it happens) is it then wrong? Should we congratulate with a slap on the back and a, "good soldier!" to the one that tortures someone within an inch of his life. And the next soldier that tortures one inch too much, that soldier is put on trial, villified, and condemned for his actions. If you haven't seen the movie, "A FEW GOOD MEN" it addresses this question somewhat and is thought provoking.

Does Christianity condone torture in some circumstances?

No.

I agree with you for the most part Jakester, I'm impressed with the maturity and thoughtfulness beyond your years.
However, IF the government uses torture and the tortured person dies(it happens) is it then wrong? Should we congratulate with a slap on the back and a, "good soldier!" to the one that tortures someone within an inch of his life. And the next soldier that tortures one inch too much, that soldier is put on trial, villified, and condemned for his actions. If you haven't seen the movie, "A FEW GOOD MEN" it addresses this question somewhat and is thought provoking.

Jeff - I know that this is a tough question to answer. Funny you should mention a Few Good Men... I am a U.S. Marine, incidentally. In that movie, Colonel Jessup tried to make a case that his actions were in keeping with the security of the rest of his men on that base in Gitmo. However, as Lt. Kaffee argued in the film, Colonel Jessup had the Marine murdered without the authority to do so. I agree with Lt. Kaffee's assessment because Colonel Jessup did not have the authority to carry out torture or murder.

To me, whether torture results in murder is an issue of intention. Were the torturers acting in an official capacity of authority to torture (via the permission of the President) and was it their intent to kill? For one, if any official is out to torture and kill for no justified reason, then common sense would say that this is wrong and a sin in the eyes of God. But if the conscience of the President is to gain information from a known murderer and criminal to bring persons to justice, is torture in keeping with God's edict that a government is to execute justice on behalf of God? I suppose we may have to delineate the ways in which a society is to appropriately carry out justice against evildoers.

The things that come to my mind are examples in the Old Testament where God tells Israel to go into different lands and destroy the peoples of those lands because of their wickedness. Now, the only reason that Israel was justified in doing so was because God had given the authority to do so. If Israel as a nation had deemed it acceptable to go and do such a thing out of their own authority, what would the reason have been? Most likely out of selfish reasons but when God told them to go and destroy the peoples of different lands, it was because of his displeasure with their evil and he was pronouncing divine judgement upon them. If a reasonable and prudent government sought to bring justice upon a person out of a righteous and pure motivation, wouldn't it seem right that the government should act? Or would it seem more right that a government not act? I really don't think there is a cut and dry answer to these questions but to me I think that God judges the motives of the hearts of all men and all men are answerable to God in such matters... whether we desire justice out of a pure motive or out of an evil motive.

Does Christianity condone torture in some circumstances?


Not sure why you are trying to bate Christians into a non issue debate? I for one am not going to fall into your trap.

Just a thought ran across my mind while reading these posts, that what makes government agencies to use "torture" to extract information. If a person co-operates with the law, there is no need of using force.

Secondly, when people cling to power and the power goes into their heads, they forget that it is God who put them at that seat. And that's the time when they invent the evidence who ever tries to show them a mirror.

Triund you said, "If a person co-operates with the law, there is no need of using force."

Jesus fully cooperated with the Law. If what people did to him wasn't torture, it was pretty close.
If you had been in the crowd that day and only heard of Jesus through what the crowd says, "He is a traitor, a sinner, a blasphemer, He claims to be equal with God", from what you said you would be agreeing to the torture of our Lord.
The people you are referring to didn't even get a jury trial as American Law demands. When Americans decide without trial that another is "guilty" and justifies torture because of that, we are not far from the day when Christians will be found "guilty" of practicing Christianity and be tortured for it. It is already happening in places in Asia.(Voice of the Martyrs) Maybe we need to look at ourselves. If we can torture others to help make sure we maintain our affluent, pleasure-seeking, self-centered lifestyle in America can we really be loving our neighbor and our enemies?

Athos - I think you might be incorrectly tying two ideas together: 1) the individual and his personal life as it relates to God and mankind; 2) the government and its role and function as it relates to people.

At a personal level, torture is reprehensible as an action against my fellow man because I am violating the very principle Jesus taught which was to love my neighbor as myself. In fact, I am taught to turn the other cheek to insults and in some cases, physical harm (but that's a different discussion).

Now, at the level of government there exists a different order and responsibility with respect to people of a society. The government functions differently than you or I at a personal level. Government is responsible for creating laws that promote orderliness and justice and God is behind these institutions. Here's a quote from Paul in Romans 13:

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience."

My point in quoting this passage is to bring to light a few ideas.

1) God is behind the institutions of government.
2) Whoever resists the government's authority—whoever goes against the law—resists God.
3) Whoever persists in resisting the government—by extension, God—will incur judgment.

Now at the interpersonal level, you or I do not have God's authority to carry out the same justice that the government has. So in this respect, for me to enact some form of justice upon my fellow man would go beyond any authority granted to me from God at an interpersonal level. The authority God has granted me as an individual is to love my neighbor as myself. If, at an interpersonal level, someone has committed a crime against me, then I have to leave it in the hands of the authorities to carry out any justice. The right of self-defense is something different than what I am talking about here. I am merely saying that when someone wrongs me in way that does not require me to defend myself or someone else’s life, I must defer to the higher authority.

At the governmental level, the government is a terror to those who do evil, as Paul puts it. My thought on this is that government’s role against evil is to punish it, so that is why Paul refers to the government as a terror. Perhaps that conjures up a lot of mixed ideas and emotions but I believe all that Paul is trying to convey here is that justice is to be expected from the government against criminal wrongdoing…so it is a terror in the sense that if you do evil, you ought to be fearful of what may happen to you.

Is torture right? Again, it is without question wrong at the interpersonal level—it is not right for you or me to torture people. Is it right for the government acting in an official judicial capacity to torture? Well, the bible does not seem to expressly forbid the government from doing so nor does it seem to make allowance for it. To me it seems that the government has the authority to exact justice in a way that would secure peace and orderliness for the greater good of the society in a manner consistent with that authority. Ultimately, it seems difficult to say concretely what the government can or cannot do with respect to its function as a “terror to those who do evil.” But for the sake of the original question, we must always keep in mind that there is a distinction between Christian virtues at the interpersonal level and the authority of government acting upon its God-ordained function as a “terror to those who do evil.” We must always make that distinction in order to avoid confusion.

Jakester, not to put words in your mouth, but you seem to be saying there are two moralities - one for the personal level and another for the governmental level.

It's difficult to know how to answer you since your reading of Christianity couldn't be further off the mark. Where does one begin to answer you? How in the world did you ever come up with such bizarre notions about Christianity? Certainly not in kindergarten or Sunday school where we all learned the basics of right and wrong.

You quoted Paul and the Bible when your true meaning should have referenced Mein Kampf.

I hope I've misread you and, if I have, I will apologize.

Just a thought ran across my mind while reading these posts, that what makes government agencies to use "torture" to extract information. If a person co-operates with the law, there is no need of using force.

So if a person does not cooperate, say by being silent, force (torture) is OK?

See where the logic of your argument leads you?

Jakester,
I think the point athos is making is, you said, "At a personal level, torture is reprehensible as an action against my fellow man because I am violating the very principle Jesus taught which was to love my neighbor as myself. In fact, I am taught to turn the other cheek to insults and in some cases, physical harm (but that's a different discussion)."
Saying that, it is finished. There aren't separate rules for people and governments. Governments are made up of peoples.
I thank God local police even if they saw a person with their own eyes just murder someone(maybe even their partner) they can't just haul them off and kill or torture them to get them to talk about their accomplices. Can this happen in a communist country where there is no God except for the state? Of course. That's why athos mentioned "mein kampf"(fascism) but real close to communism("das Kapital")

Jakester, not to put words in your mouth, but you seem to be saying there are two moralities - one for the personal level and another for the governmental level.

It's difficult to know how to answer you since your reading of Christianity couldn't be further off the mark. Where does one begin to answer you? How in the world did you ever come up with such bizarre notions about Christianity? Certainly not in kindergarten or Sunday school where we all learned the basics of right and wrong.

You quoted Paul and the Bible when your true meaning should have referenced Mein Kampf.

I hope I've misread you and, if I have, I will apologize.

Athos – I understand that you are really upset with me and my comments. I thought I had clearly articulated what I was trying to say and maybe I have but maybe I haven't... I know sometimes we don't communicate clearly and other times we don't listen or read clearly so we've got a 50/50 chance here.

First off, I want to be clear that I never intended to support the idea that just because a government does something in the name of justice that it is just. The government has the responsibility to be just in the true sense of the word. The government is answerable to God, would you agree? Hitler sought to organize the German government in support of his quest to destroy the Jews and unfortunately, his plans were even considered. One of the biggest and darkest moments in world history happened in the name of "justice."

I was trying to make sense of Romans 13 as it relates to the idea of the government carrying out justice. I may have sounded a bit defensive of the government but I assure you that I am not completely for the government but I am for it as a God-ordained institution. Is torture acceptable? To me, I have mixed feelings about it because on the one hand, I respect and value human dignity and would hate to be tortured. But when I think about the idea of terrorists out there raping and killing women, cutting the heads off people, blowing up hospitals and busy intersections full of people, part of me feels that if one person must undergo suffering in order to prevent the suffering of many others, I am not averse to the idea. Maybe that’s because some part of me is really broken morally but maybe some part of me sees that this kind of justice is necessary. Am I saying that torture should be freely given and freely received? No way. If it is to be done, I wish that it would be hardly used ever. But how do you deal with hardened killers who refuse to have their murderous plans thwarted? I’m open to suggestions.

Athos, I have merely attempted to answer your original question. I certainly am not all-knowing or without flaw in my thinking…I am open to learning and I learn from others all of the time. I would love to hear you lay out a compelling argument for why torture is wrong and what we should do to prevent further terrorist attacks. Would you be so kind to do that for my benefit as well as the other readers?

For the record, I never intended to imply that I am supportive of communism or fascism. I don’t think that what happened to the Jews was just at all…I would hope that any rational human being would agree with that. But I hardly think that what our government is doing to terrorists is hardly on par with what Hitler did to the Jews but again, if my logic is wrong then I hope you and Homesell would offer some perspective as to why I am wrong about that.

Lastly, Athos, please refrain from making abusive comments about my early childhood education relative to right and wrong and my lack of understanding with respect to biblical Christianity. You say you learned right and wrong in kindergarten/Sunday school but you unabashedly attack me and reduce me to nothing with your words…have you learned to disagree with someone in a respectful manner while maintaining their dignity as a human being? If you have wisdom to impart to others, share your wisdom out of respect and dignity towards your fellow man…don’t belittle them and undermine them. That’s not loving, I don’t think. I am really committed to the truth of the bible. I take it seriously…I really do. And because I do take it seriously I am willing to listen to your arguments, Athos…to learn from someone who is wiser than I may be on this subject. So please be willing to extend me the courtesy of hearing your thoughts.

Wondergirl - Lastly, I have one question for you. Totally off-topic, but how does coming to a complete stop at a stop sign make the world a better place?
** OFF TOPIC -- If we all slid through stop signs, we eventually would do more than slide through them and end up like my elderly aunt who will not stop at a sign or light unless she sees someone close enough to stop for. Imagine the mayhem! And by the way, the law says to make a complete stop at a stop sign. A driver can be ticketed for not doing so.

Jakester,
Just curious. In the sixth chapter of Joshua, there are 2 spies sent into Jericho. If you were a citizen of Jericho and these spies were caught, would you have been in favor of torturing these 2 to find out all they knew? How can something be wrong for you but OK for someone just like you? Remember, it isn't the governments doing the torture. These are human beings like you or I doing unspeakable things in the name of government to other human beings just like you or I.
Jakester, I believe you are saved as I am. Our citizenship is in heaven, heaven is our real country, our home. Let us pray God's will be done whether it is to bless America as he has done so lavishly or destroy it, which is a possibility.

Jakester,
Just curious. In the sixth chapter of Joshua, there are 2 spies sent into Jericho. If you were a citizen of Jericho and these spies were caught, would you have been in favor of torturing these 2 to find out all they knew? How can something be wrong for you but OK for someone just like you? Remember, it isn't the governments doing the torture. These are human beings like you or I doing unspeakable things in the name of government to other human beings just like you or I.
Jakester, I believe you are saved as I am. Our citizenship is in heaven, heaven is our real country, our home. Let us pray God's will be done whether it is to bless America as he has done so lavishly or destroy it, which is a possibility.

Jeff - I understand what you are saying. When God told Israel to go into neighboring nations and kill the women, children, and young men, what do you make of that? Now, I'm not advocating we do these things but what do you make of it? How do you read these events in the Old Testament. Why was God telling Israel to do these things?

This is just for the purpose of looking at these issues from all different angles.

jakester my friend,
I love that you enjoy looking at things from different perspectives as do I and you seem to be able to handle disagreement - a mark of maturity.
As far as what I believe concerning going into the other nations and committing genocide, my take on this is if you have a cancer in your body and the only way to stop this deadly disease from spreading is to completely remove it so that the cancer cells have absolutely no contact with the healthy cells. Israel was the chosen of God, the surrounding nations were a totally pagan, polytheistic culture. God knew that any intermingling would cause His chosen to adopt the surrounding nations pagan ways. Evil is always disguising itself in an attractive way. Time after time whenever Gods people intermingle with the world, they become more worldly. It's like you can't walk in this world(when there are no sidewalks) without getting the filth of the world on you. As a young nation just getting to know God and what he was all about, God didn't want them to be confused about their true love(God) Just like the young Timothy is told to flee from sin.
After St. Augustine was born again, a young lady that he had been dallying with spotted him and called out, "Augie, Augie" he saw her and began walking quickly the other way. She called again, "Augie, it is I!" He kept on going and retorted back, "Yes, but it is no longer I."
As Paul said, "It is no longer I that lives but Christ that lives in me."

jakester my friend,
I love that you enjoy looking at things from different perspectives as do I and you seem to be able to handle disagreement - a mark of maturity.
As far as what I believe concerning going into the other nations and commiting genocide, my take on this is if you have a cancer in your body and the only way to stop this deadly disease from spreading is to completely remove it so that the cancer cells have absolutely no contact with the healthy cells. Israel was the chosen of God, the surrounding nations were a totally pagan, polytheistic culture. God knew that any intermingling would cause His chosen to adopt the surrounding nations pagan ways. Evil is always disguising itself in an attractive way. Time after time whenever Gods people intermingle with the world, they become more worldly. It's like you can't walk in this world(when there are no sidewalks) without getting the filth of the world on you. As a young nation just getting to know God and what he was all about, God didn't want them to be confused about their true love(God) Just like the young Timothy is told to flee from sin.
After St. Augustine was born again, a young lady that he had been dallying with spotted him and called out, "Augie, Augie" he saw her and began walking quickly the other way. She called again, "Augie, it is I!" He kept on going and retorted back, "Yes, but it is no longer I."
As Paul said, "It is no longer I that lives but Christ that lives in me."

Jeff - thank you for sharing your thoughts. As I am sure you'd agree, life and what we believe isn't always so cut and dry. What I mean is that we all have to struggle to understand what we believe by testing things that we hear with what we read and see, etc. This issue of torture is one that I haven't fully put to bed yet... there are so many issues that I am sorting out in my mind which affect my thoughts on the subject. I am alive to the reality of what torture is and do not take it lightly. If I am wrong about the way I see it, I pray that God will open my eyes and grant wisdom to me. What else can I do?

Likewise, I appreciate your maturity in having the compassion and integrity to deal with me as a human being with different thoughts and perspectives and disagree with me in a dignified manner.

Triund you said, "If a person co-operates with the law, there is no need of using force."

Jesus fully cooperated with the Law. If what people did to him wasn't torture, it was pretty close.
If you had been in the crowd that day and only heard of Jesus through what the crowd says, "He is a traitor, a sinner, a blasphemer, He claims to be equal with God", from what you said you would be agreeing to the torture of our Lord.

Here I would say that Jesus did co-operate, yet the people to whom he was showing "the mirror" were bent on not letting Jesus go free. They were so much into the power of their positions that they did not even think before saying Matt 27:25 "Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children". This clearly shows that they were bent on giving death to Jesus at any cost. Another thing is that they were not at all sensible and matured people even though they were respected leaders. Had they been matured they would not had tortured Jesus when He did not deny anything. It was their sin. However, we can ignore the fact that whatever happened to Him was all Lord God's plan. Now why did HE let Jesus suffer so much whereas an easy sacrifice of Jesus would had brought us salvation, we don't know.



The people you are referring to didn't even get a jury trial as American Law demands. When Americans decide without trial that another is "guilty" and justifies torture because of that, we are not far from the day when Christians will be found "guilty" of practicing Christianity and be tortured for it. It is already happening in places in Asia.(Voice of the Martyrs) Maybe we need to look at ourselves. If we can torture others to help make sure we maintain our affluent, pleasure-seeking, self-centered lifestyle in America can we really be loving our neighbor and our enemies?

One thing I want to know here is that are we talking about torture done during investigation or torture after the sentence is served?

Torture is torture. It makes no difference why. Unless you can imagine Jesus torturing someone and telling us this is how we are to love our enemies and to love our neighbor as ourself.. . Unless you would really love being tortured. Or could express and demonstrate love for your enemies by torturing them.

So if a person does not cooperate, say by being silent, force (torture) is ok?

See where the logic of your argument leads you?

I said that keeping in consideration that if the person is not co-operating with the law during an investigation, he is giving an opportunity to authorities to adopt another strategy. Is it not a responsibility of an investigator to collect the evidences and present to a judge to deliver justice to the victim? No need to use force, if a thing could be done peacefully, we all know this pretty well. Recently, in Ontario, Canada, a 8 year old girl went missing in the month of April. Yesterday, a couple got arrested for her murder. Six weeks after Ont., girl Tori goes missing, focus shifts to recovering her body - Yahoo! Canada News (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090520/national/missing_girl). I expect that arrested couple to "co-operate" in telling the police about the dead body of Tory so that police could be saved from exhausting search and could invest its energy in solving other cases.

Second thing we should never forget that as a Christians we are expected to live our lives with some expectations, however, as an individual Christian, every one is exceptional. Beside religion, culture also impacts significantly a person's life. In OT times, murdering someone was not "very wrong". Even Lord God was with His people during fights and wars. Did David, Samson, Joshua and others not killed people? Make me aware of a war where people were not killed.

This might be another debatable thing that, if we are told `Thou shalt no kill`, why do Christians join Military or Police services because while in action, killing someone in those services is inevitable at sometime or the other. However, I am neither justifying killing not supporting it.

I said that keeping in consideration that if the person is not co-operating with the law during an investigation, he is giving an opportunity to authorities to adopt another strategy. Is it not a responsibility of an investigator to collect the evidences and present to a judge to deliver justice to the victim? No need to use force, if a thing could be done peacefully, we all know this pretty well. Recently, in Ontario, Canada, a 8 year old girl went missing in the month of April. Yesterday, a couple got arrested for her murder. Six weeks after Ont., girl Tori goes missing, focus shifts to recovering her body - Yahoo! Canada News (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090520/national/missing_girl). I expect that arrested couple to "co-operate" in telling the police about the dead body of Tory so that police could be saved from exhausting search and could invest its energy in solving other cases.

Second thing we should never forget that as a Christians we are expected to live our lives with some expectations, however, as an individual Christian, every one is exceptional. Beside religion, culture also impacts significantly a person's life. In OT times, murdering someone was not "very wrong". Even Lord God was with His people during fights and wars. Did David, Samson, Joshua and others not killed people? Make me aware of a war where people were not killed.

This might be another debatable thing that, if we are told `Thou shalt no kill`, why do Christians join Military or Police services because while in action, killing someone in those services is inevitable at sometime or the other. However, I am neither justifying killing not supporting it.

Triund - I appreciate you pursuing these other avenues because we must have a panoramic view of God's love and his justice, which is what I suspect you are driving at. I appreciate your thoughts on this subject.

Thanks Jake, God bless you.

Instead of letting God justify us through the cross, we try to justify our beliefs and actions against what Jesus clearly says is wrong by making excuses. "oh they deserved it" It's for the good of the country" they were withholding information vital to national security" the information we get may save thousands of lives"
Friends, we are not in this world to make it a better place. We are in it, not OF IT to glorify God and to tell others the good news of what God has done for us through Christ. Just as there are sick people out there that tell you they are a stripper for Christ and there are prostitutes that say they are hookers for Christ, even "hit men" that say they are doing what they do for Christ. They are as justified as the ones that can torture another human being "for Christ". Brothers and sisters, if we can't say what we do is for Christ. It is wrong. Pure and simple.

Before we can say whether Christianity condones torture in some circumstances, we must come to an agreement on the definition of torture.
The Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1984 and entered into force on June 26, 1987.
It defines torture as any act by which:
Severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental; is intentionally inflicted on a person; for such purposes as:
• obtaining from him/her or a third person information or a confession
• punishing him/her for an act s/he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed
• intimidating or coercing him/her or a third person
• or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind;
When such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.*
The use of torture also violates U.S. law. In 1994, Congress passed a new federal law which specifically provides for penalties including fines and up to 20 years' imprisonment for acts of torture committed by American or other officials outside the United States. In cases where torture results in death of the victim, the sentence is life imprisonment or execution.
For the sake of argument, let us say that torture leads to saving thousands of American lives. If that would justify torture, would not that also justify murder? How many American and Iraqi lives would have been saved were someone to have taken the life of President Bush or Vice President Cheney before they gave the justification and order to invade Iraq? Do we want to allow a spouse to commit murder if they can show that they fear for their life, and if they didn’t kill their spouse, they would be killed themselves? That would be a major change to American law. What if we decided not to take prisoners, but to make sure that every enemy combatant who was captured was immediately executed? Would that not same millions of dollars? When we start letting the end justify the means, we will start down the path of our own destruction.

And, by the way, there were periods in history where Christians were tortured and did torture others. You can find this by researching the Crusades on Google.

Saying one is a Christian is, in essence saying you will act and respond and do as you believe Jesus would do under those circumstances. Anyone can say they are a christian and do anything and still believe they are a christian. That doesn't make it so. All I'm saying is that a "christian" that condones torture should question how he views Jesus, His Lord and Master. The example of police officers killing to save a life is invalid in that it is extremely rare(my son is a police officer) and they don't torture the person to get them to stop killing.

Before we can say whether Christianity condones torture in some circumstances, we must come to an agreement on the definition of torture.
The Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1984 and entered into force on June 26, 1987.
It defines torture as any act by which:
severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental; is intentionally inflicted on a person; for such purposes as:
• obtaining from him/her or a third person information or a confession
• punishing him/her for an act s/he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed
• intimidating or coercing him/her or a third person
• or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind;
when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.*
The use of torture also violates U.S. law. In 1994, Congress passed a new federal law which specifically provides for penalties including fines and up to 20 years' imprisonment for acts of torture committed by American or other officials outside the United States. In cases where torture results in death of the victim, the sentence is life imprisonment or execution.
For the sake of argument, let us say that torture leads to saving thousands of American lives. If that would justify torture, would not that also justify murder? How many American and Iraqi lives would have been saved were someone to have taken the life of President Bush or Vice President Cheney before they gave the justification and order to invade Iraq? Do we want to allow a spouse to commit murder if they can show that they fear for their life, and if they didn't kill their spouse, they would be killed themselves? That would be a major change to American law. What if we decided not to take prisoners, but to make sure that every enemy combatant who was captured was immediately executed? Would that not same millions of dollars? When we start letting the end justify the means, we will start down the path of our own destruction.

And, by the way, there were periods in history where Christians were tortured and did torture others. You can find this by researching the Crusades on Google.

Jakestar, I hope you and any others who are confused about torture, or who try to justify torture by citing the Old Testament, will carefully read what Amdeist has written here. (Although I find his last paragraph to be gratuitous and anachronistic).

Jakestar, I hope you and any others who are confused about torture, or who try to justify torture by citing the Old Testament, will carefully read what Amdeist has written here. (Although I find his last paragraph to be gratuitous and anachronistic).

Athos - I am still waiting for you to man up, stop being a coward, and refute what I said earlier. I want to hear your argument from the bible or how you would personally deal with terrorists that blow people apart with bombs, rape women, and cut the heads off other people. Athos, how would you treat those types of people given who they are? How do you bring them to justice in the manner you think God would have you to?

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you but like a teenager with a bb gun, you keep popping off shots from a distance without really engaging in the argument at all... I'm starting to lose respect for your position at all because you haven't offered a compelling argument for it. So how about it?

Jakester: The way you deal with any person that breaks the law is to put them on trial, convict them if possible, and give them the sentence as provided by the judge or jury. That is the American system. Even in war, America still uses the same system, such as the Nuremberg Trials? We have many mass murders that are in our jails and have been in our jails in the past. Is a terrorist any different than someone who cuts up the body parts and eats them after murdering the person? I think not. If you like the system of law used in the middle east, such as putting a man to death if he commits adultry, or cutting off a persons arm who steals, then you need to relocate. American presidents have been trying for years to get other countries in the world to acknowledge human rights, and without success in many cases. The answer is certainly not to lower ourselves to their level and go back to the stone age. Most Americans are outraged by those who would cut off heads, torture prisoners, rape women, etc. but we can't have it both ways. Once we allow our CIA or military to do such deeds would be telling the world it is acceptable, and every country would be doing it to our prisoners. I don't know about you, but were that the case, I would not have spend my career in the military.

put them on trial, convict them if possible, and give them the sentence as provided by the judge or jury.
How about instead, "convict them if guilty"?

Sounds good, but that isn't our system. We can pick apart our system of injustice in many ways. I, for one, dislike the fact that there is no justice for the victims. Madoff may go to jail, but that doesn't do anything for his victims. People who perpetrate crimes get punished in most cases, but the victim is without compensation most of the time.

Sounds good, but that isn't our system. We can pick apart our system of injustice in many ways. I, for one, dislike the fact that there is no justice for the victims. Madoff may go to jail, but that doesn't do anything for his victims. People who perpetrate crimes get punished in most cases, but the victim is without compensation most of the time.
If I were a lawyer, I would do a stint as a public defender. Why? Because a good public defender looks for the wrinkles and the chinks in the prosecution's case--not to get his possibly-guilty client off but to expose to daylight incorrect police procedures and legal arguments--plus offers a "holistic approach" to providing PD services to his clients.

No, there is no justice for victims. For them, the only justice might be that the perpetrator ends up in prison. There's no promise that victims will receive full repayment or removal of emotional and mental anguish or have broken lives restored. The civil courts at least give the victims the opportunity to collect damages.

Our judicial system is supposed to separate the unfairly accused from the real perps. Madoff going to jail does a lot for me. It means the system is working. He wasn't able to pay off the judge and get only a slap on the wrist. Even at the end of his term President Bush avoided commuting the sentence of Illinois' former governor Ryan whose lawyers are worried about his health and possibly dying in prison. But then, did he consider the health or deaths of future accident victims when he allowed, or at least overlooked, bribes in the Secy of State (DMV) office?

Our legal system has its speedbumps and potholes, but when it's allowed to work, it works very well indeed!

Madoff going to jail does nothing for me. I would rather have a system that has him work for the rest of his natural life and the pay he gets for his work goes to his victims. As far as civil courts allowing victims to get damages, tell that to the Goldmans. No, we have a bad system that needs fixing. Trial lawyers are getting victims compensation. What is wrong with this picture?

No, I don't believe anything in the bible condones torture.
I don't but I must ask as to what constitutes torture?
I think that anything that causes physical pain is torture.
I think that water boarding and sleep derivation is torture.
I also think that different people will have different ideas on what torture is.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Athos - I am still waiting for you to man up, stop being a coward, and refute what I said earlier. I want to hear your argument from the bible or how you would personally deal with terrorists that blow people apart with bombs, rape women, and cut the heads off of other people. Athos, how would you treat those types of people given who they are? How do you bring them to justice in the manner you think God would have you to?

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you but like a teenager with a bb gun, you keep popping off shots from a distance without really engaging in the argument at all...I'm starting to lose respect for your position at all because you haven't offered a compelling argument for it. So how about it?

Jakester - The answers you are looking for are found in the posts of homesell and Amdeist. It is YOUR job now to read them carefully and apply the principles found there to your own questions. Don't expect others to do the work for you.

(Oh, and calling me a coward and a teenager with a BB gun does not advance your cause. In fact, it detracts from it).

Jakester,
You know I am impressed with your maturity and wisdom and I even understand how you feel on this one(which you also have said you're still considering different aspects because few controversial issues are black and white)
I cannot help but be almost haunted by the bottom words in my signature which have influnce in all my dealings with others and make me wonder that if you could torture others(no matter what reason used to justify it) you could torture our Lord... and it still goes back to, if you can't personally do something because it is wrong for you, how can you justify someone else(in essence) doing it for you. Maybe the soldiers that tortured and crucified Jesus were "just doing their job"

I cannot help but be almost haunted by the bottom words in my signature which have influnce in all my dealings with others and make me wonder that if you could torture others(no matter what reason used to justify it) you could torture our Lord... and it still goes back to, if you can't personally do something because it is wrong for you, how can you justify someone else(in essence) doing it for you. Maybe the soldiers that tortured and crucified Jesus were "just doing their job"

Homsesell,

You posts on this topic have aligned 100% with my views on this topic. I've wanted so much to give you a "greenie", but I still need to spread around more.

As for your comment above, - the last line sounds a lot like the "Nuremberg Defense" rejected by every known court in the civilized world. No matter what oprder a person is given, no matter what job they do, they remain personally responsibl - a principle upheld both in scripture and by the courts.

Athos,
Yes, and you made an excellent point.
Fred

Because sin separates us from God, Jesus was sent as a sacrifice so that all can enter into Gods presence and know him. We are responsible for every lash, every bruise and the pounding of nails into flesh because we continue to sin everyday. We condone torture
as people because we cannot control ourselves. Is it right? no. Do I want to condone torture? No. Would I torture someone who is directly responsible for my missing child or wife or someone I love? God forgive me but yes. It would still be wrong and I would answer one day for that sin but I believe that serious crimes against humanity and children in particular gives one the moral obligation to defend the meek from those who would harm just because. My prayer is that I will never be put in that situation and for those who have.

I've been vindicated! When the news about Abu Ghraib first came out, I had suggested, like my mother always says, that you can get more flies with honey than with vinegar, So, instead of torturing suspected terrorists, I told others here on a torture thread that I, a good Christian woman, would ply those suspected terrorists with brownies, and would probably end up with them in the palm of my hand. Now there is this:

How to Make Terrorists Talk - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090529/us_time/09171190149100;_ylt=AlnHSa.wXtCNiPA1ncmsJfy2GL8C;_ ylu=X3oDMTJzazlkZm5rBGFzc2V0Ay90aW1lLzIwMDkwNTI5L3 VzX3RpbWUvMDkxNzExOTAxNDkxMDAEY3BvcwM0BHBvcwM0BHNl YwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDaG93ZG95b3VtYWtl)

Wondergirl,
Yes, you are right. Pain often either hardens those tortured or causes them to lie.
Honey does catch more flies then vinegar.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I've been vindicated! When the news about Abu Ghraib first came out, I had suggested, like my mother always says, that you can get more flies with honey than with vinegar, So, instead of torturing suspected terrorists, I told others here on a torture thread that I, a good Christian woman, would ply those suspected terrorists with brownies, and would probably end up with them in the palm of my hand. Now there is this:

How to Make Terrorists Talk - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090529/us_time/09171190149100;_ylt=AlnHSa.wXtCNiPA1ncmsJfy2GL8C;_ ylu=X3oDMTJzazlkZm5rBGFzc2V0Ay90aW1lLzIwMDkwNTI5L3 VzX3RpbWUvMDkxNzExOTAxNDkxMDAEY3BvcwM0BHBvcwM0BHNl YwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDaG93ZG95b3VtYWtl)

Yep. The other problem with torture is that if you torture them enough, they will tell you something, but the information is often unreliable.

Love your God.
Love your neighbours as yourself.
Love your enemies as yourself

Don't see how you're torture anyone if you love them. Unless you're into that stuff then you're completely gross.