Do you think that if one commits suicide that they, if saved, can enter into Heaven? Does committing suicide make you lose your salvation or rather are you ushered into Heaven early. Also, as a side note, if one belongs to the Lord would they really want to harm His creation?

As I see it , suicide is not black or white.

As I see it , suicide is not black or white.

Could you expound on what you mean by that please?

I think that the whole suicide thing started with Judas and because he is lost we believe that any person committing suicide is also lost, but I believe that Judas did not make it not because he committed suicide but because he did not believe that Jesus could forgive him.Peter betrayed Jesus three times, Judas only once,but Peter believed in the Lord's mercy,while Judas did not, otherwise he would have done the same as Peter.
Let's say that a mentally ill person, that is not responsible for his actions, commits suicide.Who is to say what will happen to that person?
I don't know, all I know is that God knows better!

You're real question should be: if a person has truly been born of the spirit and has very God the creator of all living in side of him and they are to do all they do for the glory of the Father, can they end the life that God has given to them? I think not. If one has been born again, the things of this world(circumstances) would never be enough because all (circumstances) are brought into our life by God.The only suicide God asks for is the putting to death our old self and rising to walk in the newness of the life in the spirit.

When we put our faith in Jesus, when we let HIM be on the driver's seat of our lives, when we leave everything in HIS hands, when we take on our cross and follow Christ, when we take HIM as our saviour and live with the promise that we will see and live with HIM one day, when HE gives us the strength to fight Satan and be victorious, then we never ever hasten to pass through the door of death ourselves. HE sends HIS angels to take us home.

However, Satan is always in a hurry to increase his followers and to take them home.

I happen to agree with Adam on this.
It depends on the circumstances and only God knows for sure.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

It all goes back to the original question... if you are Truly saved... is there anything you can do to lose it? My answer is this... NO. If someone commits suicide but they had accepted the Lord Jesus as their savior they will be in heaven. BUT that is a big big IF.

I want to thank all of you for answering me on this topic. It has actually helped me with some of the teenagers I deal with on a weekly/daily basis through our youth group.
God Bless

Dondi,
I'm happy that we could be of help even though there are people on both sides of this issue here.
Some believe that a person can lose their salvation as the bible indicates, and others say not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Dondi,
.
Some believe that a person can lose their salvation as the bible indicates, and others say not.

Fred

LOL... well I enjoyed the little dig... but my Bible doesn't "INDICATE" that at ALL! Good try though. ;)

Classy,
Sorry but the bible DOES indicate that as I have pointed out earlier on this thread.
If a once saved person for some reason changes his/her mind and rejects God such as becoming an atheisty or secularist as some people have done they lose their salvation.
If a person for some reason refuses to forgive others they will NOT be fogiven so Jesus says.
Fred

But Fred, since a truly saved person no longer has his own mind but by the Holy spirit the mind of Christ, how can a person that really has the spirit of God within him reject God? I contend that if one is not faithful till the end that the spirit never was in them. They may have had an emotional experience or came forward, or made a decision, etc. But it is the Spirit that chooses where he will go and enter into. Salvation is the work of God from beginning to end. The author and finisher of our faith. It is not of ourselves lest anyone should feel pride that when they think THEY chose God rather than the other way around. If there is no thing we have done to initiate salvation(and there isn't) then there is nothing to stop it. (and there isn't) It is all grace(undeserved kindness) from God.

Acura,

Who was Jesus speaking to? Had he died on the cross or was he speaking to the Jews under the law... had we heard of grace, was the gospel as we know it being preached?

homesell,
I disagree. But I do understand the point you are trying to make.
I just think that having the holy spirit within us does not make us super persons who never sin or change.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Of course we all sin daily either in thought, word or deed (or the sin of not doing good when it was in your power to do so. And, yes we hopefully are changing daily as we become conformed to the Image of Gods son.

homesell
That is also why I believe a person CAN lose his/her salvation.
Fred

Philemon 1:23 There salute thee Epaphras, my fellowprisoner in Christ Jesus;

24Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.

2 Timothy 4:9Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:

10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica

I agree with Fred on this!
My only note is that we have to see that ''being saved'' is something different from ''entering the Kingdom of Heaven''.

When Jesus healed a person , many times He said that ''your faith saved you''. What was that person saved from?Did that person inherit the Kingdom of Heaven or was that person saved from Satan's bondage?
Being saved is us leaving ''Egypt'' , but there is a looooooong way to the promised land !
Exodus 32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

adam7gur,
You are right about that.
And it was well presented.
Fred

I would bring out a "what if" if one can not lose their salvation, then would Judas be saved and in heaven, if one assumes when he was with and followed Christ he accepted him

My contention is that those who are saved have the holy spirit residing in them. Those not saved do not. Judas did not have the Holy spirit within him. The holy spirit was not given during the time Jesus was incarnate. This is also why the apostles "all forsook him" at the cross and Peter even denied him. Also why in Chapter 21 of John it shows them moping around fishing until Jesus came (after His death) and had them receive the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost. In John 16:5-7 Jesus says, "It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor(Holy Spirit) will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

Fr_Chuck,
Excellent question.
I hope to see some answers to that.
Fred

Fr_chuck
You've set up a "straw man" argument for losing salvation once a person actually and truly is saved by assuming Judas"accepted" Jesus. Judas never accepted Jesus. He was the betrayer. In John 17:12, Jesus (referring to the twelve apostles) says, "While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
All of us, like Judas, are doomed to destruction UNLESS God, in His great mercy and lovingkindness chose us before the foundation of the world to be his own and live in us as we are living in Him, a special, peculiar, people.

Jeff,

Once again... whoo hoo and amen!

homesell
So Judas was chosen before the foundation of this world to be doomed.
My my, my; the God you believe in creates and chooses people to be doomed before they have a chance to be saved.
Sorry, but I can not believe that.
Jesus tells us that God IS love, thus NOT a creator of selected people who are predestined to be doomed.
I believe that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fr_chuck
You've set up a "straw man" argument for losing salvation once a person actually and truely is saved by assuming Judas"accepted" Jesus. Judas never accepted Jesus. He was the betrayer. In John 17:12, Jesus (referring to the twelve apostles) says, "While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
All of us, like Judas, are doomed to destruction UNLESS God, in His great mercy and lovingkindness chose us before the foundation of the world to be his own and live in us as we are living in Him, a special, peculiar, people.

Please tell me if I've got the wrong end of the stick here?

But as you said people are already pre destined for destruction, that means that you can't do anything here on earth to change that, so what if you are pre destined for destruction?
Wouldn't that mean being a follower of christianity is pointless?

albear,
Excellent question.
I will watch for and answer.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Albear,
I didn't say it, I directly quoted the Bible with chapter and verse the words of Jesus. He would know. We are all created for Gods purposes to do what he wills. Do you think when God created lucifer that he didn't know what would happen?
As to destruction or life everlasting from the foundation of the world, we don't know who is saved and who isn't and we don't know who will be saved and who won't. "The Spirit goes where it wills." I do contend that when you are truly saved you know it and know that your future home is heaven and that we who are saved are currently seated in the heavenlies. John 10:14-15, "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me- just as the Father knows me and I know the Father - and I lay down my life for the sheep.

please tell me if ive got the wrong end of the stick here?

but as you said people are already pre destined for destruction, that means that you can't do anything here on earth to change that, so what if you are pre destined for destruction?
wouldnt that mean being a follower of christianity is pointless?

Who is pre destined for destruction? Whoever said that, has it all wrong. Yes, everything here on earth we do effects everything and everybody here now and later.

Following Christianity is not pointless.

In John 17:12, Jesus (referring to the twelve apostles) says, "While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
All of us, like Judas, are doomed to destruction UNLESS God, in His great mercy and lovingkindness chose us before the foundation of the world to be his own and live in us as we are living in Him, a special, peculiar, people.

OK this is the bit you quoted and your translation of it, right
And when it says 'EXCEPT THE ONE' couldn't that mean there was ever only one doomed to destruction, not 'all of us' as you say?


Albear,
I didn't say it, I directly quoted the Bible with chapter and verse the words of Jesus. He would know. We are all created for Gods purposes to do what he wills. Do you think when God created lucifer that he didn't know what would happen?
As to destruction or life everlasting from the foundation of the world, we don't know who is saved and who isn't and we don't know who will be saved and who won't. "The Spirit goes where it wills." I do contend that when you are truely saved you know it and know that your future home is heaven and that we who are saved are currently seated in the heavenlies. John 10:14-15, "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me- just as the Father knows me and I know the Father - and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Wait hold on, I thought god gave everyone free will right?
So in which case we are not all created for gods purposes to do as he wills.
I can't say what I would believe if I believed in god or a follower of christianity, because that is a path I didn't travel down so I could have had totally different beliefs than those that I have now,
But "Do you think when God created lucifer that he didn't know what would happen?" I don't think he did know otherwise why even create him?

And you didn't really answer my question about why bother being a christian if were either saved or doomed before we started our life on earth.(could be said of all religions but since were on the chrisitianity board then christianity)?
Unless you did and I just missed it I which case sorry but could you explain it in more clear terms, thanks :)

Whether we have free will or not isn't stated explicitly in the scripture so I won't go into that here. You think that God didn't know what would happen when he created Lucifer? How could God who knows all, not know? Maybe you are putting God into a box and don't like it or don't agree with it when God doesn't do or act the way YOU think he should.
You said, "why bother being a Christian if you are either saved or doomed?" The answer is that the Christian life 1. Is the most wonderful life you can have 2. No one knows if they are saved or doomed until they become a Christian. 3. Christianity is different from all other religions in several ways. a. It isn't a religion it is a relationship. b. It is God reaching down and saving man in His mercy, whereas all other religion is doing "good works" to try to "get in good" with God c. We are the only group that is specifically told to love our enemies, pray for those that spitefully use us, and to help those who are against us if they need help.

I believe that what we do with our free will is what determines where we will go when we disencorpserate (our soul leaves our body).
God knows what our choices will be but we do not till we make them.
That is the kernel of the nut (the meat of life).
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Whether we have free will or not isn't stated explicitly in the scripture so I won't go into that here. You think that God didn't know what would happen when he created Lucifer? How could God who knows all, not know? Maybe you are putting God into a box and don't like it or don't agree with it when God doesn't do or act the way YOU think he should.
You said, "why bother being a Christian if you are either saved or doomed?" The answer is that the Christian life 1. Is the most wonderful life you can have 2. No one knows if they are saved or doomed until they become a Christian. 3. Christianity is different from all other religions in several ways. a. It isn't a religion it is a relationship. b. It is God reaching down and saving man in His mercy, whereas all other religion is doing "good works" to try to "get in good" with God c. We are the only group that is specifically told to love our enemies, pray for those that spitefully use us, and to help those who are against us if they need help.

hold on you said god imposes his will on us that means we have no free will, so by what you said gods will is for people to be gay(which I believe is a sin in christianity right?) people to kill other people and people to molest children some how I don't think that's what a god would will do you?
no I don't think god did know when he created lucifer, why create something you know is going to do evil, especially if you supposed to be god it doesn't make sense for a god who is supposed to be kind to all living creatures to create the devil does it.
oh I'm not putting god into a box or liking or not liking 'it' (what ever it is?)mainly because I don't really follow christianity I'm just trying to understand what your saying, as for thinking how I think he should your doing the same thing I'm just going off what other people have told me :)
your point 1. hmmm that's debatable and actually quite biased from your point of view you can't have experienced all other types of life so to be honest that just your opinion and not reall a fact.
2. you said they're already doomed or saved anyway and know weather or not they are won't change the out come.
3. have you followed all the other religions and chosen christianity ? Or is it as I suspect just your opinion.
and as for 'love our enemies' I sense a lot of distain for other religions in you, so you seem to be a bit of a hypocrite.
I hope you don't get defensive, I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just trying to understand what your saying as it is quite confusing

albear
You've asked some interesting questions.
Though I have some answers, first I will look forward to the other answers.
Fred

albear
You've asked some interesting questions.
Though I have some answers, first I will look forward to the other answers.
Fred

Albear,
You sure aren't the first person to not understand what I'm saying. I'll try to clear things up.
I said I had no comment on whether we have free will or not. People choose to sin. God loves sinners(us) but hates the sin that we do.
Saying that it didn't make sense for God to create Lucifer knowing what would happen is what I talked about by God not acting the way you feel he should.
1. I have experienced life without Christ so I know what that is like and I can readily see the difference in the Christians I have known that have been rescued from a life of violence, drug addictions, alcoholism, greed, etc. that were all self destructive, so I have seen other lives without Christ. (Especially when I worked as a bouncer)
2. The outcome isn't changed but since we don't know the outcome there is the possibility that anyone may come to know Christ. As you might someday. When I was an unbeliever I thought there was no way in this world I would ever become a Christian but God, in his grace and mercy, saved me and changed me.
3. I have investigated other religions yes and even non-believers agree that all other religions require a list of things to do to "get closer" to God or get to heaven or paradise. Even atheism requires that you don't believe in God.
I don't see other religions as my enemy but yes, I am a hypocrite when it comes to letting God's love flow out from me at all times. In that, I fail.
Actually we are all hypocrites in the sense that we don't live up to our own made up code of conduct at all times.
I certainly took no offense at your response and appreciate you taking the time to point out where I didn't make myself clear.

homesell,
Well said.
Well done.
Fred

I believe suicide to be a way satan uses to gain control in our hearts. He fills us with despair and anger and sadness and hopelessness.

In god, all things are possible. Look how he tested Job. Job basically went through hell for his god. And it would have been very easy for him to lose faith in his lord and take the 'easy way out' by killing himself. But he didn't. He stuck it out. And is now dining in heaven with his god.


Simply put, suicide is an unforgivable sin. It cannot be forgiven because you cannot ask forgivenes once you have done it. And you can't simply say 'forgive me for what I'm about to do'

God says our bodies are our temples. And we are to treat them as such. Do not destroy maim or harm your body in any way. And suicide does just that.

jenniepepsi,
Right!
Thou shalt not murder.
To commit suicide is to murder ones self.
Fred

Didn't Jesus choose to die when he could have had the angels save him? Was that suicide?

He did not kill himself. He allowed them to kill him. He did not drive the nails himself to hold him to the cross, nor did he whip himself.

he did not kill himself. he allowed them to kill him. he did not drive the nails himself to hold him to the cross, nor did he whip himself.

What's the difference? He could have stopped it.

Athos,
No!
It was following the will of God the Father.
Fred

Athos,
No!
It was following the will of God the Father.
Fred

Ok, Arcura, you got me.

:D haha I was too late. Arcura responded faster than me.

:D haha i was too late. Arcura responded faster than me.

We'll give you Honorable Mention, jennie, for a close second.

Albear,
You sure aren't the first person to not understand what I'm saying. I'll try to clear things up.
I said I had no comment on whether we have free will or not. People choose to sin. God loves sinners(us) but hates the sin that we do.
Ok yea that’s understandable but that implies he gave us free will and hence we don’t carry out his will unless we choose to, is that a better way of putting it?

Saying that it didn't make sense for God to create Lucifer knowing what would happen is what i talked about by God not acting the way you feel he should.
Yea I follow what your saying, but maybe he didn’t know maybe he isn’t all knowing.

1.I have experienced life without Christ so I know what that is like and I can readily see the difference in the Christians I have known that have been rescued from a life of violence, drug addictions, alcoholism, greed, etc. that were all self destructive, so I have seen other lives without Christ. (Especially when I worked as a bouncer)

Yea but that’s what I mean you’ve only experienced what you’ve been through in life and can only say that being a Christian is a better life than what you previously had.

2. The outcome isn't changed but since we don't know the outcome there is the possibility that anyone may come to know Christ. As you might someday. When I was an unbeliever I thought there was no way in this world I would ever become a Christian but God, in his grace and mercy, saved me and changed me.
That still doesn’t explain why people become Christians if it doesn’t change the outcome, and even becoming a Christian doesn’t change it so even if you become a Christian according to what you’ve said then you still stand a chance of being doomed.

3. I have investigated other religions yes and even non-believers agree that all other religions require a list of things to do to "get closer" to God or get to heaven or paradise. Even atheism requires that you don't believe in God.
I thought Christians followed the bibles teachings (whatever they may be I don’t know I haven’t read it) to get into heaven, is that wrong?

I don't see other religions as my enemy but yes, I am a hypocrite when it comes to letting God's love flow out from me at all times. In that, I fail.
Actually we are all hypocrites in the sense that we don't live up to our own made up code of conduct at all times.
Yea we’ve all been hypocrites at one point or another, but not being a Christian means it isn’t a sin, although in my opinion its not usually good to be a hypocrite.

I certainly took no offense at your reponse and appreciate you taking the time to point out where I didn't make myself clear.
Thanks I re read over what id written and It did strike me as being a tad bit hostile even though it wasn’t meant to be.
Sorry I took a while to reply but I've been very busy recently
Looking forward to hearing your response, as well as the responses you said you had arcura
Thanks
albear

Albear,
1st answer: Yes, "For it is not the Lord's will that any should perish" and "God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked"
2nd answer: Being all knowing(omniscient) is part of the definition of what God is. A being that did not know everything would not be God.
3rd answer: Not just my life but ask any Christian that has the spirit of God in them. If Life wasn't more wonderful and "better"(a subjective term) we could always go back to our miserable existence without God. (Though I don't believe one that has the Living God inside Him can choose for God to leave him or forsake him.
4th answer:It wasn't me that said once the living God has put his spirit in you that you stand a chance of still being doomed. Once His spirit is in you(true salvation) you are destined for glory with Him in heaven. Since He chose you before the foundation of the world, that is called pre-destined.
Answer 5: Yes true Christians follow the Bibles teachings. Not to "earn" God's love or to "earn" salvation because it can't be done. God doesn't say to us, "clean up your act and then maybe I'll consider letting you live with me when you die." Christians do what we do because God has already said he loved us and told us he wants us with him when we die. We all are sinners though and a holy God cannot have us even in his presence in that condition. So, while we were still sinners, Christ came and died to pay for all our sins. For the cost of sin IS death, but the free gift of God is life eternal through faith that Jesus paid our penalty on the cross. He took our place. We do follow the Bible in gratitude for what He has done for us.
Answer 6: It's like armchair quarterbacking. It's easy to see what we think the athlete or coach should have done and point out errors, but it's another story if these critics got out there and tried to do it themselves. Many see the Christian life as easy, just a bunch of "don'ts," don't do this, don't do that, etc. but it is really a bunch of "do" in that we are told by God to LOVE first and foremost. Love is an action verb. While a dead person never does anything wrong, a dead person never does anything loving or caring either.
I hope all this hasn't confused you more because I know I threw a lot at you. Thank you for patiently reading and your interest expressed in hearing my answers.

Albear,


2nd answer: Being all knowing(omniscient) is part of the definition of what God is. A being that did not know everything would not be God.

Well that's debatable, and dependent on the variant of omniscient that your using


3rd answer: Not just my life but ask any Christian that has the spirit of God in them. If Life wasn't more wonderful and "better"(a subjective term) we could always go back to our miserable existence without God. (Though I don't believe one that has the Living God inside Him can choose for God to leave him or forsake him.

Still that doesn't quite back up what you claimed does it, it still is just an opinion and kind of biased, which I don't really mind, good for you having found a better life for yourself , I just don't believe what you said to be true tis all


4th answer:It wasn't me that said once the living God has put his spirit in you that you stand a chance of still being doomed. Once His spirit is in you(true salvation) you are destined for glory with Him in heaven. Since He chose you before the foundation of the world, that is called pre-destined.

Maybe not but you said were either all doomed or not anyway, no matter what we do, and that nothing we do here can change that, and now it sounds like you've changed your mind saying that once you have found god (allow his spirit in you) your spirit will be saved, those two aren't the same thing?


Answer 5: Yes true Christians follow the Bibles teachings. Not to "earn" God's love or to "earn" salvation because it can't be done. God doesn't say to us, "clean up your act and then maybe I'll consider letting you live with me when you die." Christians do what we do because God has already said he loved us and told us he wants us with him when we die. We all are sinners tho and a holy God cannot have us even in his presence in that condition. So, while we were still sinners, Christ came and died to pay for all our sins. For the cost of sin IS death, but the free gift of God is life eternal through faith that Jesus paid our penalty on the cross. He took our place. We do follow the Bible in gratitude for what He has done for us.

So basically you do what Christians do to get into heaven its basically word play that makes you believe other wise? Yeah I get that Christ came and died for our sins, so there fore again by proxy we get into heaven anyway no matter what we do, or could it be (this is whati think it means) that he died for all sins committed up to that point, (although personally I believe he was on death row and this is what was said to keep he religion alive, but that's not what were discussing I just wanted to show my stance though to make things clearer, )


Answer 6: It's like armchair quarterbacking. It's easy to see what we think the athlete or coach should have done and point out errors, but it's another story if these critics got out there and tried to do it themselves. Many see the Christian life as easy, just a bunch of "don'ts," don't do this, don't do that, etc. but it is really a bunch of "do" in that we are told by God to LOVE first and foremost. Love is an action verb. While a dead person never does anything wrong, a dead person never does anything loving or caring either.
I hope all this hasn't confused you more because I know I threw a lot at you. Thank you for patiently reading and your interest expressed in hearing my answers.

I don't know about that, I don't think people see it as easy, but rather 'bothersome' placing too many rules on things and restricting what they can and cannot do, if they want to follow Christianity.

I think some parts confused me (part 5 especially)because it seemed like you were changing your mind from what you had said before, that's fine if you did sometimes things get lost in translation, especially over the internet. Thanks for taking the time to respon.
Sorry it took so long to respond to your answers.

albear,
Thanks for responding. I, too, once believed that Jesus death on the cross paid for all our sins up until that point(I was in a cult that taught this)but it didn't take me long to see that I was still sinning either in thought, word, or deed.(As were the so-called leaders)
Oh yeah, I was changed and a new man, but the wages of sin is still death and no man can keep himself totally sin free. I found that the closer we get to God, the more aware we are of just how wrong we really are,(Hitler thought of himself as a nice guy) how God hates sin, and there is no hope for anyone that doesn't have all sins(past, present, future) covered by the blood of Jesus. That's why the saved are no longer under Law but under Grace. Where there is no law, there is no sin.
I know this sounds like double talk but it is clear in my head... I just have trouble writing it in a way that is easily understood. (pretty obvious to me since many times people at this website have gotten something totally different or even opposite of the point I was trying to make)

albear,
Thanks for responding. I, too, once believed that Jesus death on the cross paid for all our sins up until that point(I was in a cult that taught this)but it didn't take me long to see that I was still sinning either in thought, word, or deed.(As were the so-called leaders)
Oh yeah, I was changed and a new man, but the wages of sin is still death and no man can keep himself totally sin free. I found that the closer we get to God, the more aware we are of just how wrong we really are,(Hitler thought of himself as a nice guy) how God hates sin, and there is no hope for anyone that doesn't have all sins(past, present, future) covered by the blood of Jesus. That's why the saved are no longer under Law but under Grace. Where there is no law, there is no sin.
I know this sounds like double talk but it is clear in my head... I just have trouble writing it in a way that is easily understood. (pretty obvious to me since many times people at this website have gotten something totally different or even opposite of the point I was trying to make)

So all of our sins have been accounted for and jesus paid the price, right? – is this sort of what you mean when you say were already doomed or not?-were already saved?
So that means nobody has to be a Christian to get into heaven, since were all going there anyway, and on that point it doesn't matter what we do here on earth because all of our sins have already been paid for, correct?
So again, there isn't really any reason why people would become Christians, yes becoming one has changed lives for many people I'm not saying it hasn't (born agains) but that's just a form of self help and not really what a religion is, is it.
Hmmmm, I guess its probably my perspective that's preventing me from seeing why people become Christians based on the things you've told me, maybe I will one day, but not today :)
Thanks for trying to explain it to me though :)

Albear,
I did not mean to even imply that everyone is saved and everyone has all their sins covered by the blood of Christ.
"For as many recieved Him, to them he gave to become the sons of God."
"whosoever believes on Him will be saved."
If we were chosen, (Jesus said, "You didn't choose me, I chose you.")the Holy Spirit brings us close to God, convicts us of sin, and arranges circumstances in our life that causes us to believe. No person can say if another person has been chosen. a chosen person is a Christian already or will become one before they die.
The difference in the life(or why become a Christian?) Has to do with being in a relationship with the creator of the universe.(Christianity is a relationship-not a religion)
Gal 5:16-26 says it best:
16 My counsel is this: Live freely, animated and motivated by God’s Spirit. Then you won’t feed the compulsions of selfishness.
17 For there is a root of sinful self-interest in us that is at odds with a free spirit, just as the free spirit is incompatible with selfishness. These two ways of life are antithetical, so that you cannot live at times one way and at times another way according to how you feel on any given day.
18 Why don’t you choose to be led by the Spirit and so escape the erratic compulsions of a law-dominated existence?
19 It is obvious what kind of life develops out of trying to get your own way all the time: repetitive, loveless, cheap sex; a stinking accumulation of mental and emotional garbage; frenzied and joyless grabs for happiness;
20 trinket gods; magic-show religion; paranoid loneliness; cutthroat competition; all-consuming-yet-never-satisfied wants; a brutal temper; an impotence to love or be loved; divided homes and divided lives; small-minded and lopsided pursuits;
21 the vicious habit of depersonalizing everyone into a rival; uncontrolled and uncontrollable addictions; ugly parodies of community. I could go on. This isn’t the first time I have warned you, you know. If you use your freedom this way, you will not inherit God’s kingdom.
22 But what happens when we live God’s way? He brings gifts into our lives, much the same way that fruit appears in an orchard—things like affection for others, exuberance about life, serenity. We develop a willingness to stick with things, a sense of compassion in the heart, and a conviction that a basic holiness permeates things and people. We find ourselves involved in loyal commitments,
23 not needing to force our way in life, able to marshal and direct our energies wisely. Legalism is helpless in bringing this about; it only gets in the way.
24 Among those who belong to Christ, everything connected with getting our own way and mindlessly responding to what everyone else calls necessities is killed off for good—crucified.
25 Since this is the kind of life we have chosen, the life of the Spirit, let us make sure that we do not just hold it as an idea in our heads or a sentiment in our hearts, but work out its implications in every detail of our lives.
26 That means we will not compare ourselves with each other as if one of us were better and another worse. We have far more interesting things to do with our lives. Each of us is an original." -The Message

Albear,
I did not mean to even imply that everyone is saved and everyone has all their sins covered by the blood of Christ.
"For as many recieved Him, to them he gave to become the sons of God."
"whosoever believes on Him will be saved"
If we were chosen, (Jesus said, "You didn't choose me, I chose you.")the Holy Spirit brings us close to God, convicts us of sin, and arranges circumstances in our life that causes us to believe. No person can say if another person has been chosen. a chosen person is a Christian already or will become one before they die.
The difference in the life(or why become a Christian?) Has to do with being in a relationship with the creator of the universe.(Christianity is a relationship-not a religion)
Gal 5:16-26 says it best:
16 My counsel is this: Live freely, animated and motivated by God's Spirit. Then you won't feed the compulsions of selfishness.
17 For there is a root of sinful self-interest in us that is at odds with a free spirit, just as the free spirit is incompatible with selfishness. These two ways of life are antithetical, so that you cannot live at times one way and at times another way according to how you feel on any given day.
18 Why don't you choose to be led by the Spirit and so escape the erratic compulsions of a law-dominated existence?
19 It is obvious what kind of life develops out of trying to get your own way all the time: repetitive, loveless, cheap sex; a stinking accumulation of mental and emotional garbage; frenzied and joyless grabs for happiness;
20 trinket gods; magic-show religion; paranoid loneliness; cutthroat competition; all-consuming-yet-never-satisfied wants; a brutal temper; an impotence to love or be loved; divided homes and divided lives; small-minded and lopsided pursuits;
21 the vicious habit of depersonalizing everyone into a rival; uncontrolled and uncontrollable addictions; ugly parodies of community. I could go on. This isn't the first time I have warned you, you know. If you use your freedom this way, you will not inherit God's kingdom.
22 But what happens when we live God's way? He brings gifts into our lives, much the same way that fruit appears in an orchard—things like affection for others, exuberance about life, serenity. We develop a willingness to stick with things, a sense of compassion in the heart, and a conviction that a basic holiness permeates things and people. We find ourselves involved in loyal commitments,
23 not needing to force our way in life, able to marshal and direct our energies wisely. Legalism is helpless in bringing this about; it only gets in the way.
24 Among those who belong to Christ, everything connected with getting our own way and mindlessly responding to what everyone else calls necessities is killed off for good—crucified.
25 Since this is the kind of life we have chosen, the life of the Spirit, let us make sure that we do not just hold it as an idea in our heads or a sentiment in our hearts, but work out its implications in every detail of our lives.
26 That means we will not compare ourselves with each other as if one of us were better and another worse. We have far more interesting things to do with our lives. Each of us is an original." -The Message

Jeff.
Well said.
Well done.
Fred

"whosoever believes on Him will be saved" – so there is a requirement, a reason to be a Christian, in otherwords going against what you said before.
No person can say if another person has been chosen. A chosen person is a Christian already or will become one before they die.- I didn't say people could, so as long as a person becomes a Christian no matter what they've done in the past, (remembering the horrible types of people I mentioned before) they will get into heaven, again you said earlier that with the Christian belief doesn't reqire you to please god, but that's not really true is it.
And yea Christianity is a religion, I'm not saying its not a relationship, but it is a religion

What I got from those bits you quoted is that if you don't follow the religion then you're a selfish immoral arsehole, where as if you do they you're the best thing to ever happen to the world, it does seem to be blowing its own horn so to speak.

Right, look, its obvious to me that this littlediscussion between us has run its course, I don't understand some of the things your saying and some of it seems self contradictory, so I think id best just drop it and let it be, as I clearly don't get what it is your trying to say :)
Thanks for trying anyhoo
Albear :)

Albear,
I'm sorry I was unable to make my explanations clear. Since you want our discussion closed, I will stop. Thank you for at least reading my replies and trying to figure out what I was saying.

Albear,
I'm sorry I was unable to make my explanations clear. Since you want our discussion closed, I will stop. Thank you for at least reading my replies and trying to figure out what I was saying.

No worries homesell :)

Yea I just see us going round in circles

My Opinion to the fact that God created Lucifer is that He didn't want to know. I mean, he let everyone choose what he wants to do, accept Him, or not. He won't go into yourself and see what you'll be or not; he leaves you that choice, that freedom to choose.

And a second thing I'd like to point out is that a Christian life isn't always 'better' from some point of view. Some Christians do have to suffer for God, but the goal is the same. The only difference in the 'hard life' of a christian and that of a non-christian is that christians have God by their side, who'll support them by all situations.

That's it. This was a really interesting discussion, though I may be wrong for the points I made above, I'm fairly convinced of them.

Unknown008,
Absolutely right about some of us being called to suffer. Christians are persecuted in many parts of the world and it will flat out get you killed if you declare it openly in some countries. I do believe this is why americans have been fed "easy-believeism and "Your best life now" baloney. I apologise for giving the impression the christian life is easy. Far from it. What I probably should have said was, My absolute best(rewarding, fulfilling, exhilirating) day as a non-believer is still not as good as my worst day as a Christian.
I think God created Lucifer because if we were never tempted, what would show our love? To some extent we would be mindless robots. Or like the serial killer in a maximum security jail saying that he hasn't killed anybody since he was incarcerated - it doesn't make him a non-murderer. "Where there is no temptation, there is no virtue" - me
Even Jesus faced temptation and his virtue is in that He overcame it.

Unknown008,
Yes I do believe that God gives us the freedom to choose.
I also know that life is very difficult for many Christians in many countries including some in this one.
Different people have different crosses to bear.
I pray that all will do so and persevere to the end of this life in preparation for the next.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Christianity, Hinduism, Muslim, Sikh, Jain, Buddhist,, any religion ---- Suicide is a sin,, I donno whether therez anything called Heaven or Hell,, but if there is, u commit suicide, u go straight to hell because u hurt the people who care for u the most,, u give them a never-ending pain,, therez no other sin greater than giving pain to those who love u,,

Hi Ho Silver,
You have made some good points about the pain that suicide causes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hi Ho Silver,
You have made some good points about the pain that suicide causes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thanks Fred...