Today's Gospel lesson. Jesus tells of one one work that is required.
Today's Gospel (Jn 6:22-29): After Jesus had fed the five thousand, his disciples saw him walking on the water. Next day the people who had stayed on the other side realized that only one boat had been there and that Jesus had not entered it with his disciples; rather, the disciples had gone away alone. Bigger boats from Tiberias came near the place where all these people had eaten the bread. When they saw that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum looking for Jesus.

When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, «Master, when did you come here?». Jesus answered, «Truly, I say to you, you look for me, not because you have seen through the signs, but because you ate bread and were satisfied. Work then, not for perishable food, but for the lasting food which gives eternal life. The Son of Man will give it to you, for he is the one the Father has marked». Then the Jews asked him, «What shall we do? What are the works that God wants us to do?». And Jesus answered them, «The work God wants is this: that you believe in the One whom God has sent».
:confused:Want are other works which the New Testament tells us are required?:confused:
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

John 6:26 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

This meat is spoke of by Paul in detail. Note His word of advise:

Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Hebrew 6:1-3

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

And this will we do, if God permit.

I just did a translation of this passage and the word "required" is not in the Greek. Literally it should be translated:

"What shall we do in order that we might work the works of God?" And further:

..."This is the work of God, that you believe of Him Who He sent"

Jesus is saying that believing that Jesus is the ONE God wants us to know is what He wants us to be doing.

All, and only, the works of man produced from being in Christ through faith in Him are acceptable to God. Christ's work, perfect obedience even to the cross, is the only work which saves anyone. When faith is Him and when this faith in His work is "worked" in us then we can and will do good works acceptable/pleasing to God:

Heb 11:5-6

5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
NIV


What is confusing to natural logic is that salvation is a gift from God. To avoid the penalty of sin (eternal separation from God) one must have been perfectly/completely/always obedient to God and His will. The only one able to do this is the Son of God Who came from heaven and took on human flesh to be under the Law, and Who, alone, could fulfill it perfectly.
Our salvation is in Him.

God called us, in Him, that we would do the works of God. We still don't do them perfectly but are being restored by God's power to be more like Him in our lives of loving activity towards our neighbor. This DOES earn us rewards. But not salvation... since salvation is already ours as a gift from God. And when we fail in doing these works, we have forgiveness and are still considered righteous in Christ... but we may lose some of the temporal rewards or even be chastised in love by God.

I've been "long-winded" because we need to hear again and again that it's all about God's love for us and His power in our lives.

What is confusing to natural logic is that salvation is a gift from God. To avoid the penalty of sin (eternal separation from God) one must have been perfectly/completely/always obedient to God and His will.

Grace is love, and that love is a gift freely given in salvation. God wants are love in return, freely given to HIM in obedience of HIS will. As His child take His hand and walk with HIM.(willingly)



And when we fail in doing these works, we have forgiveness and are still considered righteous in Christ... but we may lose some of the temporal rewards or even be chastised in love by God.

When we fail, it is our hearts that God knows to judge. God will teach us as we reap from what we sow, a lesson in obedience that brings goodness forward.

But I will add that the meat is the step beyond what is being said here. If God is willing, an individual will go beyond the milk to the meat of discernment in righteousness, and living accordingly because they understand right from wrong.


And this will we do, if God permit.

Grace is love, and that love is a gift freely given in salvation. God wants are love in return, freely given to HIM in obedience of HIS will. As His child take His hand and walk with HIM.(willingly)



When we fail, it is our hearts that God knows to judge. God will teach us as we reap from what we sow, a lesson in obedience that brings goodness forward.

But I will add that the meat is the step beyond what is being said here. If God is willing, an individual will go beyond the milk to the meat of discernment in righteousness, and living accordingly because they understand right from wrong.


And this will we do, if God permit.

Hebrew 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

revdrgade,
Well said.
Thanks
Fred

But I will add that the meat is the step beyond what is being said here. If God is willing, an individual will go beyond the milk to the meat of discernment in righteousness, and living accordingly because they understand right from wrong.


And this will we do, if God permit. [/QUOTE]

In my passing years (many of them have past) I've noted that all followers of Christ are immature in some area of their walk with Him. Even those who are eating the meatier teachings don't know all the blessings God wants to give us here on earth and haven't been tested in all aspects of their strong faith in God and His love for them.

The Ten Commandments already give us a good and perfect understanding of right from wrong. On the other hand, maturity in sanctification(the holiness while still on earth type) helps us both in knowing the difference but helps us in overcoming the wrong and moves and enables us to do what is good and right according to God's will and pleasure.



Ps 37:25-31

25 I was young and now I am old,yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken nor their children begging bread. 26 They are always generous and lend freely; their children will be blessed.

27 Turn from evil and do good ;then you will dwell in the land forever. 28 For the Lord loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones.
They will be protected forever,but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off; 29 the righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever.

30 The mouth of the righteous man utters wisdom,and his tongue speaks what is just. 31 The law of his God is in his heart;his feet do not slip.
NIV

revdrgade
Yes indeed. I do think that many of us are somewhat immature Christians in some way.
Full Christian maturity was hard to come by even for some of the saints.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I think Jesus was telling them basically that no amount of "good works" of the flesh can make things right with God.
Many unsaved ask, "What must I do to be saved?" All religions say, "here is a list of things you must do to know God the way we do." They don't know God.
Only true Christianity agrees with Christ in that there is nothing you can physically DO. Christ has already done it for you. It is just your job(work) to believe it. The good works that FOLLOW already being saved are from the indwelling Spirit of Christ/God.

homesell,
I disagree.
Faith is but one of the works Jesus tells us we need to do, another is to be baptized.
The new Testament has many references about work and foe his followers to do the works He did including spreading the good news.
Those, I believe, are expected.
Fred.

Fred, I know, the Bible says be Baptized FOR your sins. A person is Baptized because they have already been saved, not to help them get saved, but here is an example: A convicted murderer is sentenced to death. He is put to death FOR murder not to help him murder. And... as I've mentioned before, the good works that were created in Christ Jesus for us to do before the foundation of the earth are because God has already saved us and these works are the promptings of the spirit within. "WHATSOEVER you do that is not of the Spirit, is sin." That's why all our righteousness(good works we do) are filthy rags trying to clean us. God says. "I will cleanse you and I will take away your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh."

I just have a question...

What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? He didn't get down off the cross and get baptized, but after he said that he believed Jesus was the Son of God, Jesus said, "Today you will be with me"...

What does that mean if baptism is required for entrance into heaven? Jesus lied to that man?

Or does it truly mean that only faith is necessary for salvation?

Right historian chick. Even in Freds lesson the people asked what good works(plural) shall we do to be saved and Jesus replied , This is the work(singular) of God is that you believe in the one he has sent.

I just have a question...

What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? He didn't get down off the cross and get baptized, but after he said that he believed Jesus was the Son of God, Jesus said, "Today you will be with me"...

What does that mean if baptism is required for entrance into heaven? Jesus lied to that man?

Or does it truly mean that only faith is necessary for salvation?

You are right and at the same time you are quoting a wrong common misconception, i.e.: that baptism is a necessary "good work" on our part.

Baptism is a means (one of the means) by which God's saving and sanctifying grace is given to mankind. We are given the command to baptize but we only submit to being baptism and really doing nothing ourselves except submitting.

It is only faith which saves us. And it is because of faith that we are baptized. People sought baptism as something from God and not a good work of their own by which they would redeem themselves in any way:

Lk 7:29-30
30 But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)
NIV

Ac 8:36-38

36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized ?" 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.
NIV

Ac 8:36-38

36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized ?" 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.
NIV

What happened to verse 37?

Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Belief has to precede baptism.

Baptism is association with, not means of.

Fred,

Did you realize that everything that Jesus said, and everything that Jesus did was NOT "Christian." It was JEWISH and under the LAW. Mathew, Mark, Luke and JOHn... dare I say it... are JEWISH!! They are about a JEW! LIVING UNDER THE LAW. Christianity didn't begin until AFTER Christ rose again from the dead. Grace didn't start until after the Jews rejected him... shocking... isn't it.

Let me say one thing... Ok maybe it will be more than ONE... BUT when a JEW got baptized back in the day... let me tell you, people took NOTICE. When Peter proclaimed... to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins... let me tell you... they NEEDED to repent and be baptized for the remission of SINS. GRACE hadn't started... they were still awaiting Jesus and His earthly KINGDOM. There was NO SUCH THING AS CHRISTIANITY.

NOW, having said all that. Jesus asked us to be baptized so we do.. not for salvation but in obedience to him. If you read Paul epistles ( you remember PAUL.. the apostle to the GENTILES) he even says something like... I don't remember who the heck I baptized.(.ok that was me paraphrasing,) my point is if baptisim was a requirement for salvation... Paul wouldn't have been so glib about it. That is just one MINOR point there are a ton of reasons baptism is NOT a requirement. Consider this... you can't baptize yourself.. so basically you don't just need the finished work of the LORD.. you need someone to baptize you too. I guess death bed confessions are out of the question. Please... when my Savior does something... he FINISHES it.

I just have a question...

What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? He didn't get down off the cross and get baptized, but after he said that he believed Jesus was the Son of God, Jesus said, "Today you will be with me"...

What does that mean if baptism is required for entrance into heaven? Jesus lied to that man?

Or does it truly mean that only faith is necessary for salvation?

Chick,


Oh I have been round and round this one too. The people that claim baptism is NEEDED say that Jesus hadn't died and rose again... so it is null and void. Plus they say He could forgive anyone he wanted because he is God. It is a silly argument though... HE CANNOT and WILL NOT go outside of his WORD. He won't just forgive someone on account of him being GOD... He places his WORD above his NAME.

ClassyT , I think you misunderstood historian chick. She is asking if that doesn't prove that Baptism isn't necessary and yes it does prove that. The thief on the cross did the ONE work that God requires... belief in his Son. If you knew how many pastors are judged by their congregations and the world by how many Baptisms they do a year, you might see why Baptism is emphasized. If it's not Baptism, it's church membership, if it's not church membership, it's giving... seems there is always something man wants to tack on, so that he can judge his fellow human beings relationship with God.

ClassyT , I think you misunderstood historian chick. She is asking if that doesn't prove that Baptism isn't necessary and yes it does prove that. The theif on the cross did the ONE work that God requires...belief in his Son. If you knew how many pastors are judged by their congregations and the world by how many Baptisms they do a year, you might see why Baptism is emphasized. If it's not Baptism, it's church membership, if it's not church membership, it's giving...seems there is always something man wants to tack on, so that he can judge his fellow human beings relationship with God.

Homeslice, ( hee hee sorry couldn't resist;))

I actually did understand her... I probably was confusing in my response. I am with you 100%. :)

If you read Paul epistles ( you remember PAUL..the apostle to the GENTILES) he even says something like...i don't remember who the heck i baptized.(.ok that was me paraphrasing,) my point is if baptisim was a requirement for salvation.....Paul wouldn't have been so glib about it. .

Paul said in scripture Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel. (1 Cr 1:17)

Other scripture in reference of this has it that Paul preach the gospel, and allowed the work of the synagogue do the baptism.

Paul said he baptized the house of Stephanas, and perhaps others he wasn't sure. (1 Cr 1:16)Understand the house of Stephanas was the Christian convert of Corinth...

Paul's concern was that someone might think he baptized in his own name ( 1 Cr 1:15) and actually wanted it clear who he had baptized. (1 Cr 1:14) so Paul named who he had baptized,.

1>Crispus known as the ruler of the Jewish synagogue in Corinth
2>Gaius known as a man from Derbe who went with Paul from Corinth in his last journey to Jerusalem.

In Act 19 Paul brings attention to being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Snd,

I completely, totally, utterly and wholeheartly disagree with the notion that baptism is a requirement of salvation.

Fred,

In my earlier post to you, I re read it and it sounded snotty. I didn't mean it to be.. just sos you know

What happened to verse 37??

Belief has to precede baptism.

Baptism is association with, not means of.



I agree! One of the other means of grace besides baptism is God's word. And that is what Philip placed before the man and the man heard and believed... and so asked to be baptized.

God is not stingy with His grace. He wants ALL to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved by grace, through faith in the redemptive blood of Jesus His Son. He is redundant; in the very best sense of the word so that all have many opportunities to receive His love for us all.

That the man believed FIRST, before baptism, once again teaches us that that baptism is not a good work that man must do in order to have salvation but is given to us to activate grace or more grace in people. You did notice that the Pharisees still rejected God's purpose because they weren't baptized. They still didn't see the meaning or need for a savior.

I do believe that the bible clearly says that baptism is necessary.
We must be born again of The Spirit and water.
And "Mark 16:16. Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned." says that both faith and being baptised is necessary.

So we do have different points of view on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

As I mentioned before in another answer, the people ask what works(plural) they must do for salvation. Jesus answers there is one work(singular)they must do for salvation. Believe in Him that God sent. Yes, God asks us to do other things but the other things are after we are saved, not something that helps us get saved.
Acts 16:29-31 "the Jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' They replied, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.

homesell.
Thanks but the bible presents much more on that than just that.
Is is summed up with a faith without works is dead.
If you don't work your faith it is dead.
Fred

Fred, thanks for the input but you're missing my point or I haven't made myself clear. I'm saying if we ARE saved we DO good works. If we don't do good works, it's not that we lose our salvation, it's that we never had it to begin with.

homesell,
A Southern Baptist minister once summed it up for me by calling it the difference between a head faith and a heart faith.
Some people have a head faith and do not do as the bible says we should and must do such as being baptized, forgiving others, and obeying the commandments particularly the commandment from Jesus to love one another as He loves us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Isn't that why Jesus said, "you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your, mind and all your soul."
Head knowledge isn't enough. The demons know very well that Jesus is the Christ, the only begotten son of the Father, God incarnate, but this head knowledge doesn't help them. That's why when God (truly) saves he says, "I will take your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh."

As I mentioned befor in another answer, the people ask what works(plural) they must do for salvation. Jesus answers there is one work(singular)they must do for salvation. Believe in Him that God sent. Yes, God asks us to do other things but the other things are after we are saved, not something that helps us get saved.
Acts 16:29-31 "the Jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' They replied, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.

We can't just take part of the gospel. If you continued to read the teaching in Acts you will see that baptism was included.

Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

I will never deny that AFTER one is saved, the first thing to do is get Baptized. My contention is with those that believe there is something they can or must do to help the salvation process along. God does it all, Jesus said it is finished. SINCE "IN HIM we live and move and have our being" and "it is no longer I that lives but Christ that lives in me" we therefore should walk as He walked, in spirit and truth and obedience to the Father. This includes Baptism AFTER we have been saved.

Snd,

I completely, totally, utterly and wholeheartly disagree with the notion that baptism is a requirement of salvation.



Actually I had only posted a difference in written scripture concerning Paul's work, and baptism.

But if we want to take this further in that baptism is a requirement. I would add the scriptures that tells us the requirement of being converted to a child of God is necessay to enter the Kingdom. A child of God does as the Father will's just as HIS son Jesus did. The willing heart of love and obedience, following in righteousness.

Mark 10:15
Luke 18:17
Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Snd,

I came to Jesus as a Child... LITTERALLY, I was baptized in obiedence to him when I was in the third grade. I did it because Jesus asked me to NOT as a requirement in salvation. He finished the work on the cross.

homesell,
You have made a good point.
The works one does after being saved are those that are required.
If a person refuses to do them them they have not proven their faith, it was just a head faith, but some believe that is all that is necessary to be saved.
Even if that shows that the person really never was saved I still believe that a person, under certain circumstances that I have mention can lose their salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Snd,

I was baptized in obiedence to him when I was in the third grade. I did it because Jesus asked me to .

Exactly.... the willing love and obedience to follow..


The willing heart of love and obedience, following in righteousness.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

When a person has question in their mind of baptism. What should be the reply is, does your heart want to follow Jesus. If that answer is YES, then be baptized.

(Luke 9:23) (Mark 8:34)
Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Is following Jesus a requirement of salvation?

Originally quoted from Sndbay:Is following Jesus a requirement of salvation?[/QUOTE]
Sort of kind of. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and leads us to Jesus, then enters into us at the point of salvation and rebirth. We then follow Jesus because we are already saved, not to get saved. If one has an emotional experience or "makes a decision" or "goes forward" without repenting(turning away from sin) or following Christ as a change of life in the new birth, then one has not been saved. That's why I say sort of kind of. It's like good works and baptism and prayer and giving do NOT "help you" to get saved. These things are a natural flow outward of the Holy Spirit/God/Jesus living inside you.

Originally quoted from Sndbay:Is following Jesus a requirement of salvation?

Sorta kinda.

Did you not know that Chirst is our salvation?

The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation. (2 Sa 22:47)

And say ye, Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather us together, and deliver us from the heathen, that we may give thanks to thy holy name, and glory in thy praise.(1 Ch 16:36)

He also shall be my salvation: for an hypocrite shall not come before him (Job 13:16)




The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin and leads us to Jesus, then enters into us at the point of salvation and rebirth. We then follow Jesus because we are already saved, not to get saved.

There is no back door, nor is there another way to be save ? Salvation is Christ, it is the grace/love sent by the Father in Heaven
Revealed truth comes from the Father. The Father gives us Christ...Christ is our salvation and we must follow Christ because He is our salvation. He is the door and shepherd of the sheep..

John 10:29-30 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

John 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

To use any other door is the same as a thief or robber (John 10:1)

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


It is certainly a requirement to follow Christ, because He is our way. So it is the same requirement in denying any other ways except HIS way in following HIM. Newness of life in the Holy Spirit comes by bapitsm. And baptism should be done when you can willingly confess faith, trust, and love of the begotten Son of God Christ Jesus.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

sndbay.
I agree.
Jesus via the grace of God IS the only way.
Fred

I apologise for not making myself clear. Yes, jesus is the way, the Truth, and the Life and no one comes to the Father but by Him. I was focusing on the word "requirement" and then elaborated we follow Jesus because we are saved, as opposed to following Jesus in order to "Get saved"

Jeff,

And there in LIES the difference... what we do to beome saved and what we do AFTER salvation... :) We are in agreement...

I was focusing on the word "requirement" and then elaborated we follow Jesus because we are saved, as opposed to following Jesus in order to "Get saved"


Jeff,

And there in LIES the difference...what we do to beome saved and what we do AFTER salvation....:) We are in agreement.....

On thread.. the requirement is in whether works are necessary. Not whether those works save us, because we all know works don't save us.
The point being that faith in Christ is our saving grace, and the required or necessary work to enter the Kingdom is to follow HIS steps. (the spirit within)
If one does not do the works, then they are not saved, nor will they enter the Kingdom. It would be like having the lamp without the oil, and a path of darkness. It is as James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Reference: Psalms 85
Shew us thy mercy, O LORD, and grant us thy salvation. I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly. Surely his salvation is nigh them that fear him; that glory may dwell in our land. Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven. Yea, the LORD shall give that which is good; and our land shall yield her increase. Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set [us] in the way of his steps.


Gal 3:26-27 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

homesell,
Salvation comes by the grace of God, that is as a gift.
So you say that God chooses to whom he will give the gift.
The what did Jesus come to save the world?
According to you He cam to save just those chosen to be gifted.
I think not.
I think that God wants all of his human creatures to be followers of Jesus Christ and to be saved.
There are 4 billion souls on this planet who are not Christian, so why if only the chosen can be saved do so many work to convert those who are not Christian to being them into Christ's sheepfold?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

First, because we don't know who is chosen and who is not. Even the chosen don't know until they are.
Second, life without God is meaningless. Sheep without a shepherd, poised for a thief and a robber to come in and carry them off for slaughter.

homesell,
Very true.
But I do believe that Jesus came to save the world. That's all of us and it depends on what we do with this life as to what will happen to us when our bodies die.
Fred

Fred,
Jesus did come into the world to save the world, not condemn it, as Jesus himself said. But what Jesus has done is a finished work, God is the author and finisher of our faith. Jesus himself even said, "it is finished"
All our righteousness is but filthy rags to God. The righteousness of Christ has been put on us. All good works that we do(prepared for us before the foundation of the world) are done out of love and gratitude rather than fear of hell.

Fred,
The answer to your question is the quote above it.
"The jews asked him,'what shall we do? What are the works(plural) that God wants us to do?' Like other religions say also, do this and this and this and this and then maybe you'll be saved or get to heaven or paradise.
Jesus replies, "the work(singular) that God wants you to do is this: that you believe in the one that God has sent"
That's it. Too simple for many.
Religions and the evil heart of man tells him that there must be something else to do, something must be added so that I can "help God out" by "earning" his free gift, so I can point to myself and say, Lord, Lord, look what I did.
We want to think there is something attractive about us that God would choose us, or a reason that he would love us, or something about us or what we do that would make us closer to Him or make Him love us more than some others.
Like I'm not as bad a sinner as that guy over there so God found it easier to save me than that guy. How ridiculous!
None of us is worthy, it's all grace and mercy, there is nothing we can do to make God love us more than He does, there is nothing we can add to the finished work that Jesus did on the cross.

Fred,
All our righteousness is but filthy rags to God. The righteousness of Christ has been put on us. All good works that we do(prepared for us before the foundation of the world) are done out of love and gratitude rather than fear of hell.

I look at this differently then what you have shown. I understand that we were cursed by what Adam did by taking from the tree of knowledge rather then the Tree of Life. But NOW Christ has set us free from that curse. We are to be servants of righteosuness and walk in Christ as He will dwell in us. Each has the caling to follow and eat of the Tree of Life. It is free will that gives us that choice to follow the teaching of the gospel unto profitable in godliness. Be ye holy for I am HOLY...

To believe in Christ we must believe He was worthy as the begotten Son of God who fulfilled our righteousness. Giving us back the image of righteousness which we were created to be. If anyone does not believe in His worthiness then they partake of HIS bread and blood unworthy. We are baptized to be buried and dead to this world. It is the fulfillment of righteousness that was suffered and fulfilled by Christ.


Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

Romans 5:17-18 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 17:15-16-17 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Jeff,
Yes I believe what Jesus said that we believe but the question is what OTHER works does God want us to do.
The way I read the bible I see the word work many times in relation to what God wants and asks, such as "love one another as I have loved you."
Jesus gave that as a commandment.
Fred.

Fred,
Exactly. What I am saying is If we believe, the Holy spirit, God and Jesus reside in us and we are saved. Since this is true(biblically) the "other works" are what we are to do AFTER we are saved. To do any of these works before we are saved is meaningless if they are done to somehow "earn" salvation.(and not to say that charitable acts aren't beneficial because they are - just not as a means to "add" to salvation or help get saved.

Fred,
Exactly. What I am saying is If we believe, the Holy spirit, God and Jesus reside in us and we are saved. Since this is true(biblically) the "other works" are what we are to do AFTER we are saved. To do any of these works before we are saved is meaningless if they are done to somehow "earn" salvation.(and not to say that charitable acts aren't beneficial because they are - just not as a means to "add" to salvation or help get saved.

How does one get saved? We do not save ourselves, nor can anyone on earth save us..

What we do is REJOICE, because we are saved. We at birth shall be called holy, and by the grace of God we are saved..

There is no before in being saved or after, however there is a choice in whether to follow, whether we believe in the begotten Son of God and what was sent.

Some teach that we are filthy wags but that shows they are under the law which shows them what they are doing in sin. When you leave the law, and are no longer under the law, we have faith. (This may be what is posted or meant in before or after.. Before is law and after is Christ)

We are not under the law when we believe in Christ, when we believe in HIS worthyness to have saved us. REJOICE WE ARE SAVED...

homesell,
I never did say or infer that works alone can save a person.
But I also believe that faith alone can not save either.
It takes both faith then works to prove that faith for a faith without works is dead so says the book of James.
Luther once tried to leave that book out of the bible because it said that.
Why are so many still trying to ingnore that paassage?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,
We agree and disagree. You are right "It takes both faith then works."
Faith is first, and the works follow because we are already saved. If works do not follow, then there has been no faith, no life changing, born of the spirit from above, regenerated by God experience.
Certainly works alone can never save a person. How many good works can make up for a single sin?
Works that flow from the Spirt within are proof of the Faith. That's why James says,. faith by itself, if not accompanied by action is dead." and "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." No one that claims a faith in Christ, but does no works, has any faith at all because the works are done because of faith.
Where we disagree is that I'm saying the works have NO PART of salvation.
The works are only evidence that we are already saved.

Fred,
We agree and disagree. You are right "It takes both faith then works."
Faith is first, and the works follow because we are already saved. If works do not follow, then there has been no faith, no life changing, born of the spirit from above, regenerated by God experience.
Certainly works alone can never save a person. How many good works can make up for a single sin?
Works that flow from the Spirt within are proof of the Faith. That's why James says, ... faith by itself, if not accompanied by action is dead." and "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." No one that claims a faith in Christ, but does no works, has any faith at all because the works are done because of faith.
Agree YES!



Where we disagree is that I'm saying the works have NO PART of salvation.
The works are only evidence that we are already saved.

There is one body and one spirit (joined) in one hope of our calling to--->(salvation) = Christ = ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM

Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

All is the righteousness of Christ, and the image we were created to be... Baptism is the righteous act suffered by Christ for us to follow.

Like TJ3 points out in another thread, the one baptism in Ephesians is the baptism of the spirit. That is what Jesus said He would Baptize us with. Since the Baptism of the spirit is Christ coming to live in us,(salvation) do you think the "one baptism" of the spirit is where Christ actually comes to reside in us or do you think we are saved because of the "one baptism" of the symbolic water?

Like TJ3 points out in another thread, the one baptism in Ephesians is the baptism of the spirit. That is what Jesus said He would Baptize us with. Since the Baptism of the spirit is Christ coming to live in us,(salvation) do you think the "one baptism" of the spirit is where Christ actually comes to reside in us or do you think we are saved because of the "one baptism" of the symbolic water?

We are SAVED by the law of Faith... The calling to salvation is one hope, in one Lord one Faith one Baptism

From the womb /flesh/water of nourishment we shall be called holy(innocent).. being reborn in the spirit at older age by confession/answering the call to salvation.. Should be done by law of Faith of Baptism confessing belief in Christ Jesus.

Christ dwells within: Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in HIS hand, and HE will thoroughly purge HIS floor, and gather HIS wheat into the garner; but HE will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

1 PETER 1: 22 "Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, (23)
having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word
of God witch lives and abides forever, (24) Because "All flesh is as grass, And all
The glory of man as the flowers of grass. The grass withers, And its flowers fall away,
(25)But the word of the Lord endures forever".
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

Love and Blessings Maggie 3

Jeff,
We are close to agreement at times.
But I still firmly believe that baptism is by spirit and water. Jesus insisted on being baptized with water and God the Father was pleased with that.
You ondicate that water is symbolic.
Well if so it is a very powerful symbol that is necessary in baptism that is necessary for salvation.
Fred

Matthew 3:13 John the Baptist says that he himself needed to be baptized. Why? The spirit of God was in John ever since he was in the womb? Jesus replies that he (Jesus)is being baptized not because it is required, but because it is proper.
John 1:33... the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'the man on whom you see the spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with (NOT WATER)the HOLY SPIRIT.
Fred my friend, the baptism of the spirit (invisible)is what is required for salvation. The baptism by water(visible) is "proper" to show that one has already been Baptized by the Spirit.

Jeff,
But I still firmly believe that baptism is by spirit and water. Jesus insisted on being baptized with water and God the Father was pleased with that.
Fred

Fred I agree water and spirit..

Scripture tells us that baptism was fulfilled by both water and spirit. John's water baptism with Christ did fulfilled the act of all righteousness.

(Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. )

sndbay,
Right you are.
Fred

I never said that a person that has already received the baptism of the spirit should not be baptized with water. They should. It physically symbolizes what has already taken place spiritually.

homesell,
I do not believe that it is symbolic.
I believe that correctly done baptism must be done with "Water and the Spirit" in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.
If done any other way it is not valid.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,
Because the Father doesn't know the heart of the individual? If it is not done exactly the way some denomination teaches then it doesn't count and the person is doomed?
Those were rhetorical questions.
I have known many people that have gone through water Baptism and then later turned their backs on God.
I have never met a single person that was Baptized with the Spirit of God and then later turned their backs on Him. Because they were saved and after they were saved, they proceeded to be baptized with water as commanded.

homesell,
Yes I do believe that a person once saved can lose it.
But baptism by water and the spirit is but one step on the journey to salvation.
A living faith that perseveres to the end is the final saving grace step.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I guess we understand love differently. The God of the Bible is NOT a conditional love God where he says, "Of course I love you, IF, you get circumsized, you get baptized in water, you speak in tongues, you become a missionary, you build me a church, you give 10%, you read my word daily, you pray to me every night(or morning) you do the sacramenmts, you go to sunday school, and on and on with conditions. (since I am an expert on cults, I can REALLY give you a weird list of "must do's" to "earn God's love.) (One group says for example that you are doomed if you don't pronounce the name of Jesus exactly like they think you should.)
Salvation is like a marriage since we are the bride of Christ according to scripture. Once I married my bride that I chose, she took on my name(Smith) as we take Christs(christians) She doesn't have to do anything to get my love. She has it. I will never leave her or forsake her(as Jesus promised to do with us) and even if she was to be a quadriplegic from sickness or accident(in sickness or in health) I have pledged to love her. She doesn't always do things the way I want or act the way I want but I don't love her any less and it certainly doesn't jeopardize our marriage. I will never divorce her as God will never divorce us.
My point is, when the Holy Spirit enters us, we are married to God. As Jesus says in John 17:20-23 "20 ¶ "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."
The Holy Spirit enters us and we are one. A husband enters a wife and they are one, according to scripture. Like Paul says, "nothing can separate us from the Love of God." God looks on our heart. If the heart is not the heart He gave us to replace our heart of stone, nothing we can do will "earn" His love or salvation. If he HAS replaced our heart of stone with a new heart which He says He will place in us, nothing we do will earn His Love or salvation because this love and salvation are not conditional.

homesell,
From what I understand of Holy Scripture, no one earns God's love. It would be impossible for sinners to do that.
God's love is unconditional for every human creature.
That is what I learned way back in Protestant Sunday School and ir was strongly reinforced in my mind and heart when I became a Catholic over 35 years ago.
No cults were ever involved in my life.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You're right Fred, Gods love is unconditional and we don't earn it, according to scripture. What we learn in protestant Sunday school or catholicism is only beneficial if it lines up with the word of God. It's up to us to be like the Bereans that went home and read the scriptures and put that as the test against what Paul had said. Very well meaning and sincere people can tell you a lie just because they believe it. They were taught it and never compared it to what the word of God says. I'm not saying this happened to you, I am saying test whateveryone says(including me) against what the scripture says because no man on earth has a corner on the truth.
I wouldn't hold it against you if you had been in a cult, Fred, I was. That's what got me started in refuting false doctrine by the word of God.

Thanks Jeff,
Testing what Scripture says against what is said and taught what lead me to leave the fundamentalist beliefs I once had and insisted on.
I still do that.
But there is an ongoing problem and that is Holy Scripture can be used to prove almost anything and some people are very adept at doing so.
That is what I try to use the entire bible in my studies rather than accept just pick and chose passages.
The other problem is that I believe what Scripture clearly says to me but says something else to others.
Peace and kindness,
Fred