My husband and I have been together for about 4+ years. It's been pretty rough.

About a year ago I caught him cheating on me. By cheating I mean, going on discreet dating websites, emailing escorts- just your basic internet cheating. Although he denies ever meeting anybody, I really am in disbelief and I will be honest with you guys, I have brought it up a time or two.

I left him for a little bit, twice actually, but I ended up coming back to him.

This is not the only issue, he seems to always be right. I may be exaggerating just a bit but if you were to tally how many times he's right over me he'd be the ultimate champion. What things is he right about? Well almost anything, directions to a location , any life choices I make [I started this business and it ended up failing just like he said it would, I started working out and he said I would quit and I did after a while]. And it just seems that now I am really doubting myself and I'm actually beginning to think that I am stupid.

I really don't know how to talk to him or express my feelings to him because the conversation seems to turn at some point to make him seem like he's in the right and I'm the big dummy.

Almost daily [okay maybe every other day] I'm called everything under the sun. I've also noticed that now we are starting to get physical; I do admit I hit him, slap him, bite him, pull his hair, shove him or just anything to get him off me [and he doesn't hold back to hit me, pull my hair, or do whatever I did to him]. I've had my moments where I just broke down and cried for him to just leave me alone or in the middle of a conversation when he's "right" again.

[I]Moment of truth: I do want and I don't want to leave this marriage. I do because this relationship is clearly unhealthy, I don't because of financial reasons and the fact that I actually love this man.

I'm just lost!
MRS.S

You're not stupid, but it sounds like you're involved with somebody who would like for you to believe that you are.

How do you feel about your husband? Do you still love him? Did you ever go through couple's counseling after the whole escort/cheating event? To me, it seems like he's beating down your spirit, but I don't know the whole story.

Edit: Whoa! You're hitting him? He's calling you everything under the sun? If you guys really still love each other, you need to get to counseling! Otherwise, just stop the madness and get out. This is no way to live.

How do you feel about your husband?

I am very irritable when it comes to him. He really frustrates me and I hate how he twists my words around. Sometimes I know I am right but I can't pin point my points that would prove that I am right- but when it comes to him he can list up to 50 things that would make him right and then I am the "loser". We do have our good times, we have great fun, it's not always hell with him.


Do you still love him?

Yes I do. However I don't find myself "in love" with him if that means anything. Hollywood has really distorted love to the point I'm really unsure if that if your not "in love" that it means you are not in love [catch my drift?]. It's begun to be a love/hate relationship.


Did you ever go through couple's counseling after the whole escort/cheating event?

Yes we did, it worked for a bit but then everything the councilor would say would be what my husband said prior to ever attending. It turned pointless.

MRS.S

Huh. What did the counselor say? Because what your husband did was way out of order. Maybe it's time to shop around for another counselor. Trust me, your husband is not "right", no matter how much he twists things around in his favor.

The verbal abuse and physical violence are very concerning... you guys really need a different counselor, or to just get out of this situation. I can't imagine how unhappy I'd be if I were in your shoes!

you guys really need a different counselor, or to just get out of this situation. I can't imagine how unhappy I'd be if I were in your shoes!

I would but money is really tight right now.

I am really unhappy, my weight goes up and down, myself confidence is shot [I've been working really hard on "upping" my self-esteem], last night I cried in frustration but for some reason after this happens everything seems okay and wonderful until the next episode.

MRS.S

Shoot. I wish I knew of some good books that might be helpful.

Imagine that money wasn't an issue for you. Would you still stay with him? I'm just trying to figure out how far love goes versus necessity.

I know there's a difference between the "in love" part of a relationship, and the "love" part. For me, the "in love" part lasted about a year, and what I refer to as "real" love kicked in. In my own experience, my partner and I are very considerate with each other. She wanted to start her own business, and I completely supported her, including financially... her business is extremely successful today. Last year, she decided to begin working out. I had no idea if she'd stick with it or not, but I stood behind her all the way. Today, she's lost thirty-five pounds and continues to work out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that real love is supportive. It doesn't belittle, or tear down, or always have to be "right". What you're describing doesn't sound like real love. Since money is tight, I suggest looking for some good self help books to help you get through this rough patch until you can afford counseling, or until you can both separate.

Shoot. I wish I knew of some good books that might be helpful.

Imagine that money wasn't an issue for you. Would you still stay with him? I'm just trying to figure out how far love goes versus necessity.

The book thing would be something, I'd do- he doesn't like reading. I would have to tell him what the book says, we'd try it and we'll be back here. I've done this already. I'm feeling like this marriage is not savable.

If I had money to move out, pay first and last for an apartment, etc- I would leave [I think]. It must be really nice to have someone supportive like that.

I hope this thread picks up because I am really confused,
MRS.S

Maybe you'd get more views if you put this in "relationships". In the mean time, reading some self help books to help boost yourself esteem would be helpful. You deserve to be in a situation where you are treated well, not torn down.

Recommended books -- by John Grey (Men are from Mars... ) and Dr. Phil.

I suggest you not tell your husband about every move you plan to make. If you want to lose weight, begin to eat healthier and go for walks or do a few exercises every day when he's not around. Do "easy" stuff like park at the far end of the mall lot so you have to walk a distance. Take the stairs instead of the escalator or elevator. Be creative in how you move your body. Also be creative in food choices (avoid foods containing sugar, flour, rice, potatoes, whipped cream, cheese, chocolate). But don't say a word to him. And don't make it so obvious that he figures it out.

Also, somehow become a more interesting person -- volunteer at an animal shelter or hospital or library maybe two hours a week. Check out from the library CDs or DVDs from a company called The Teaching Company -- there's every subject from math to history to science to English. (If the library doesn't own them, they can get them for you through interlibrary loan. See the company's web site for more information about their offerings.) You won't get college credit but the courses are taught by either high school or college teachers. You definitiely will be smarter after you listen to or watch a couple that sound interesting to you. Or join a book discussion group at the library. Or a writing group there. If they don't offer either of those, talk with the director about starting one. (It's easy!)

Move your body and move your mind!!

Thanks for the tip WonderGirl- I will be looking for "The Teaching Company".

I am eating healthier and I am starting to go to the gym with a friend on Monday- I've been working myself up by myself- it's been getting better. I had a thread that had to do with myself esteem [if you didn't see] and since posting it I've gotten a bit better.

MRS.S

Exercise is an excellent mood lifter!

The trouble with men like your husband is, they are essentially very insecure. It is a form of control in what he does with you, and as long as he keeps winning, you will stay where you are.

They are crafty. They know ahead of time how you are likely to react, and the closer you get to the truth, the more extreme the measures become until he wins again. He doesn't likely admit to anything, or take the responsibility for the direction that he is steering an argument. He can likely play just about anybody like a fiddle.

He's never wrong, that's how an argument starts, and that's how it ends. No amount of proof, reason, logic, etc. will convince him he is wrong.

People like your husband do not do well in counselling as you've discovered, because it is hard work, and takes a long time to see progress. If he doesn't think he has a problem, it is a waste of everybody's time to be there.

Behaviour escalates, which is the worrysome part. What went from probably a heated argument, turns into screaming and yelling, and progresses to the physical violence. Just a hunch, but I doubt that you could have ever seen yourself physically fighting with a man, let alone your husband.

While you are considering your options, please consider this. Go to a women's shelter, and talk to somebody who can understand and is familiar with this type of behaviour. It will do you good to realize that many men like your husband have cause untold grief to their partners self-esteem, and physical and emotional well being.

I'm not saying he is dangerous, I'm saying that his behaviour, gone unchecked, could lead to more problems down the road. The sooner you speak to a professional the better.

There are many options out there for you.

Have to spread the rep Jake
Picked the thoughts right out of my mind!;)

The trouble with men like your husband is, they are essentially very insecure.

I know he is. I'm not "allowed" to have male friends- because they just want to get into my pants. We made an "agreement" that we aren't allowed to have opposite sex friends- the only reason I agreed to it was because I really don't trust him after what he did and in the past. The only males I do talk to are my friends' boyfriends.


He can likely play just about anybody like a fiddle.

I agree. Just about anybody- it really frustrates me.




Just a hunch, but I doubt that you could have ever seen yourself physically fighting with a man, let alone your husband.

Your right, I never saw myself being so violent.


While you are considering your options, please consider this. Go to a women's shelter, and talk to somebody who can understand and is familiar with this type of behavior.

I really don't think going to a shelter would do me any good- if you mean visiting there to converse with other women then that is different. The violence usually begins with me hitting him. I know it's wrong but it's the only way I get him to stop.

Thank-you so much for your insight Jake,

MRS.S

Dear Mud,
I've been in a similar situation as you've described and I feel your pain. Really I do.

One thing I'd suggest is to stop focusing on what you can't do and begin lifting yourself up. You said you can't pay 1st and last month's rent to set up an apartment... well keep checking. Some apartments only require a small deposit and then you pay your first month's rent. Do you have any friends or family that would let you crash at their place for a while? Given the situation and the fact that you have a child, I think someone would be more than willing to give you a place to rest your head until you can save up the money. Do you belong to a church?- if so, your church may have funds to help you with the deposit.

Speaking from personal experience, this situation will not get better. Your husband obviously doesn't see that there's anything wrong with the situation and he would have to in order to see the need for change. You can't stick around waiting on him to figure out that things are bad. Not to mention, do you really want your daughter growing up around this nonsense? Do you want her to think that this is how relationships work and how she should expect to be treated by a man?

The thing is, you have to have it in your mind that you want to move on. You can not waiver.

With my ex (my son's father), it started as verbal. Then it moved to a little push here or there. Next thing I know, he jumped on me because I found out he was doing the same thing you mentioned (trolling on the internet for women). Like so many women, I fell for the "I'm sorry, it'll never happen again, I'll get help"-line. We were apart for about 3 months when I let him come back. Within 2 weeks, I thought he was about to kill me. I ended it right then and there and never looked back.

About a month later I found I was pregnant with my son. I still don't regret ending it. Not only I'm not sitting around worrying about what he might be doing with the girls from the internet, I'm not worried that I'm going to come home to a fight every evening after work.

Get out for you and your daughter's sake.

Save yourself by getting out because he already verbually abuses you and you always stated it gotten physcial. Leave for you own piece of mind.

Let me tell you about my mother-in-law. She has been married to my father-in-law for the last 30+ years. They have 5 kids that are grown. Now she hasn't worked that much throughout the marriage because her husband was the bread winner while she was a stay at home mom. At the beginning things was fine but fast forward to the present they aren't.

Three years ago he cheated on her with her best friend and mind you this been her best friend since childhood. Once she found out about the affair she followed her husband to the motel to where her best friend was waiting him. She had a loaded gun and was going kill herself, the friend, and husband. This affair broke her down.

She was admitted to the husband because luckily the cops caught her before she shot them. After this espiode she remained with the husband not out of love but because of fiancial reasons. If you were to see this couple in the street they look like the happiest couple but they aren't. They sleep in separate rooms and live like friends. I feel so sorry for her because sometimes you can look into her eyes and see pain, despair, anger, sadness, and anything gloomy. She try to masked it but she can't. She even told me that she should have left him along time ago because she knew he was cheating on her a long time ago but overlooked it because of the kids and the fiancial security. Even now she feels trapped because now she's old and can't start over.

Please don't let this happen to you. If you need money get out and work or go to school and pick a field where you can make money. Single mothers do it everyday. They struggle and they survive and so will you.

Love is about one person having control and power over the others. Love isn't suppose to hurt. The two of you aren't a match regardless how hard you try because he is set in his ways and so are. You already said and know this married isn't healthy so why stay?

Mrs. S,

I didn't mean to go and visit to talk with abused women at a shelter. What I meant was when you said money is tight, to go to a shelter, for advice and guidance. They can far better inform you of what you might want to consider doing.

They have all the resources at their disposal to help you, and could offer you a better perspective on your husband's (and your) behaviour.

Counselling is something to consider, and worthwhile checking on, as to what is available in your community, just for you.

It is possible to better understand why this relationship is so seemingly toxic, but I would love to see you get some face to face advice from a counsellor. Just information to start, not any big commitment, but just some good information to give you some insight as to why this is happening, and what it could mean if it doesn't change.

He's not going to change his ways as he's happily manipulating you and obviously enjoys this. You aren't going to change either as all he does is push your buttons and gets you angry.

He will change however, but only for the worse. Right now you are the one hitting him. Men can stand to be hit upon just so long and then they will start hitting back. Do you want a broken jaw or a black eye or worse? How about a broken pelvis or a broken leg or broken neck when he slams you down onto the floor or slams you into a wall? When he snaps you'll definitely bear the brunt of it I guarantee you.

You are staying together for financial reasons? I couldn't think of a worse reason to stay with a person that I didn't love. Get a job and take your child and leave him. Once he starts pounding on you he just might start pounding on your child as well. You don't have to have such a grand place to move to - even a one room efficiency would be better than living with someone that drives you to pound on him would be far more preferable in the long run.

You seem to have no self esteem and he knows this and preys upon this. Where are your parents or brothers or sisters? Have you spoken to them about spending some time away from him at their place with your child? You need to get away from him before he really pushes your buttons and you end up doing something really awful and end up in jail for a long time due to something you did in the heat of passion or the heat of anger.

nikosmom agrees: Great post

Thanks Nikosmom. Just telling it from the heart and experience.

I didn't mean to go and visit to talk with abused women at a shelter. What I meant was when you said money is tight, to go to a shelter, for advice and guidance. They can far better inform you of what you might want to consider doing.


Oh okay.. thanks- that is a great idea. I will do this.


I couldn't think of a worse reason to stay with a person that I didn't love. Get a job and take your child and leave him. Once he starts pounding on you he just might start pounding on your child as well. You don't have to have such a grand place to move to - even a one room efficiency would be better than living with someone that drives you to pound on him would be far more preferable in the long run.

You seem to have no self esteem and he knows this and preys upon this. Where are your parents or brothers or sisters? Have you spoken to them about spending some time away from him at their place with your child? You need to get away from him before he really pushes your buttons and you end up doing something really awful and end up in jail for a long time due to something you did in the heat of passion or the heat of anger.

I do have a job! It won't be easy for me to pick up and just leave. I have bills to finish paying, then on top of that rent a u-haul, find a place. I live in a city all by myself, if I do leave I want to move back to my hometown [where my family and closest friends are], in order to do that I need to have that money.

On top of this, unfortunately, I do not have my full driver's license yet. Don't think I haven't studied or anything in fact last Saturday I went to go re-take my test and well I failed- I get extremely nervous on the road and I am really trying to fix that- I'm going for another test this sat and I really hope I pass.

Don't get me wrong guys I do love him but I'm just getting tired of his treatment.

Note: If your wondering why I want to move back to my hometown [which is two hours away] is because once we are through my husband will be going back to the U.S. and I'll be left here all alone in this big ole city.

Thanks for all your advice, I am taking it all to heart.
MRS.S

Keep trying until you get your license. It is one of the single most freeing things you can do. It will give you so much independence!

Keep trying until you get your license. It is one of the single most freeing things you can do. It will give you so much independence!

Trust me, I am working on it. I just really have to get over that feeling I get. I get so nervous I can't even begin to describe it. The fact that I live in a big city where people drive like crazy people makes me very uncomfortable. I am really, really, really hoping I pass- it's one of my biggest obstacles in order to get out of this marriage.

MRS.S

I tried my license 3 times... :o The first time, I turned left into incoming traffic, the second time I drove with the emergency brake on, and the third time I drove through a stop sign that appeared out of nowhere. It was all nervousness. I finally got it, and like Ren said, what a great day when you gain that independence!!

In the meanwhile, I know you will feel better after you speak to someone, even if it is just to validate your concerns and thoughts. I hate that word 'validate', but that's what it is. Somebody who knows what your relationship is like, and can offer some help.

I'd drive you there, but might be safer to take the bus. :D

Talk about toxic, wow. I think you should follow Jakes suggestion, and get a trained professional to talk to you, just you, and the counselors at a women's shelter is an excellent idea.

You also need a plan, as all it takes is a one way ticket home, to get a fresh start, and the love, and support you need.

For what ever reason he is making you something other than the best you can be, and your letting him. How old are you both anyway?

For what ever reason he is making you something other than the best you can be, and your letting him. How old are you both anyway?

We are both in our early twenties. Here's a piece of information that's going to make everyone say "ahhh" : we met in high school.

MRS.S

Two things, your communication skills are lousy, and you don't seem that compatible. You both have much to learn, and without a lot of help, you won't do it together.

Marriage is about blending two lives, and working together, and sorry, just don't see it. I just see one trying to dominate the other, and is cruel about it.

You have skillfully, avoided revealing your ages. Are there kids involved, schooling?

Two things, your communication skills are lousy, and you don't seem that compatible. You both have much to learn, and without a lot of help, you won't do it together.

No worries, I too believe we are uncompatible. I really try my best when communicationg with him, he just turns things around, I get frustraded and well here I am now.


You have skillfully, avoided revealing your ages. Are there kids involved, schooling?

Exact age? 22[me], 23[him]. We have a two year old together and I have ajob, in accounting.

P.S Good morning everyone.
MRS.S

I know where your coming from,my husband does this same *#@! except he doesn't hit me. Sometimes I think of throwing the computer in the middle of the street. He lies so much I don't know what to believe.

Just a thought maybe,you could go to a DV for a short while,get your thoughts together,and firgure out what you want to do.

I really hope things work out for you. I wish I had a better answer. It's kind of hard because I'm in the same place.

It is important that you try to understand why it is you that needs to change.

The most obvious reason is you cannot change him, and you cannot change the nature of your relationship. It is what it is.

I am presuming that the reasons for leaving him in the past were similar to what you are facing now.

Your concept of love, and your understanding of marriage, could very well get you seriously injured or killed. That you accept the violence, means you accept the escalating behaviour that has taken you to this place where you are now battered. Your behaviour now also includes the violence, and this 'dance' will always produce a winner, and it won't be you.

One of the reasons I suggested a counsellor at a women's shelter is that, not only is it an immediate source of safety, but a source of information that could help you see what it is about your relationship that you have no control over.

In seeing what you can't control, and what you can, you may get a better picture of why the relationship changing is probably not going to happen. You need to be in a position of strength to deal with your immediate situation, and your future.

A grown man that attacks a woman physically needs more help than you can ever provide for him. That you have also learned to physically attack him as well, should be red flags and alarm bells going off for you.

This is a dangerous situation, and I urge you to at least seek out people who know what they're talking about and can understand and advise you in person, what your options are, before you get seriously hurt.

It has to start with you.

Update:

Last night, I spoke to him. I let him know how I was feeling and that I do want to leave the relationship. He was pretty sad, we made the decision to save up money for my move and have all the bills paid off so I won't be stranded with them. It'll take about a month but that's how our conversation ended- with a plan.

Is this a good thing? Is it bad? He seemed to have understood.

MRS.S

No, it's not a bad thing at all, in fact, for both your sake's, it's a smart move.

Getting to the point of actually leaving won't be easy as you know. It is an emotional roller coaster ride from start to finsih. There will be good times and not so good times, but if you have a plan and stick to it, you'll be okay.

Just please be careful.

Keep us posted.

Not to judge, but never compromise safety for finances. NEVER. Stay on your toes!

Not to judge, but never compromise safety for finances. NEVER. Stay on your toes!

Guys! He doesn't beat me.

MRS.S

Update:

Last night, I spoke to him. I let him know how I was feeling and that I do want to leave the relationship. He was pretty sad, we made the decision to save up money for my move and have all the bills paid off so I won't be stranded with them. It'll take about a month but that's how our conversation ended- with a plan.

Is this a good thing? Is it bad? He seemed to have understood.

MRS.S

If he seemed to understand, and wasn't desperately begging you to change your mind, I'd say he's unhappy as well... so yes, this is the right thing. I'm glad you have a plan.

If he seemed to understand, and wasn't desperately begging you to change your mind, I'd say he's unhappy as well...so yes, this is the right thing. I'm glad you have a plan.

After I told him, he said "Okay" and later on he said "I still want to be with you and [my daughter]". After we had "the plan" he said to me that he thought that it would be really hard on me to be on my own, not that I couldn't make it but it'd be extremely hard on me and he would point on how [i.e. the fact that I don't have my full dirver's licence yet, who would take care of our daughter while I was working or if I'd go on welfare, etc.].

I think he was trying to convince me or scare me from the decision but I think I'm set on.

MRS.S

Guys! He doesn't beat me.

MRS.S

Yet.

Yet.

Hey, no yet.

Verbal abuser yes, woman beater no.

Mrs.S

Hey, no yet.

Verbal abuser yes, woman beater no.

Mrs.S

You said the two of you fight physically (doesn't matter who starts it). This means the gate has been opened for physical abuse.

Do you think most men that beat on women start that way? Nope. It graduates. Starts as verbal and escalates into more aggressive behavior.

After I told him, he said "Okay" and later on he said "I still want to be with you and [my daughter]". After we had "the plan" he said to me that he thought that it would be really hard on me to be on my own, not that I couldn't make it but it'd be extremely hard on me and he would point on how [i.e. the fact that I don't have my full dirver's licence yet, who would take care of our daughter while I was working or if I'd go on welfare, etc.].

I think he was trying to convince me or scare me from the decision but I think I'm set on.

MRS.S

Geez. I think what he's trying to say is that he doesn't want you to leave, but in his fashion, he's trying to point out how you'll fail... yet again. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't expect him to be enthusiastic about your decision, but it's sad that he can't have an emotionally honest conversation with you. Be strong, because I predict he will attempt to chip away at your determination to leave.

I agree with you Ren.

NM I'm not one of those women that make excuses for their men. If I believed in my heart that he would do that then I would proceed to the shelter. Although his words are hurtful he won't beat me with his fists. The only times he does do anything is if I pinch him and he pinches back, if I shove him, he shoves me back [but not hard]-- these are the only times otherwise he doesn't do it at all.

I hope it makes a little more sense now, but if you think I'm being stupid here then by all means do tell me.

MRS.S

I think you need to be have a better outlet for your frustrations.

I think you need to be have a better outlet for your frustrations.

Right you are Tal.

This is why I have joined an all Women's Gym [I start today]. It's a great gym and cheap too [20$ a month]. I'm excited.

MRS.S

Moment of truth: I do want and I don't want to leave this marriage. I do because this relationship is clearly unhealthy, I don't because of financial reasons and the fact that I actually love this man.

I'm just lost!
MRS.S
I was in a relationship similar to yours. We dated for two years, and throughout it I'd crack jokes about her being dumb, and in return she'd get physical with me. I used to have welts all over my chest from her teeth. It annoyed the hell out of me.

I had to be in the right with her, otherwise, I'd get angry. Once, we went ice-skating, and I'm a hockey fan but not much of a hockey player and when she skated circles around me, I couldn't take it. I was way too critical of her. Anytime she had an idea, I'd shoot it down immediately for no good reason, kind of like your husband "predicting" your failed business venture (I put that in quotes because he made you believe it would fail from the start... so it failed), but I've found when I dated other people that I actually respected, I'm naturally more pleasant. So, that all lead me to the conclusion that me and the ex weren't right for each other, so it could never work.

My ex isn't stupid, but she would believe me when I said she was, she let me have total control over the relationship and that's when I realized how much I enjoy that.

You deserve support and he needs to know this. How you'll get it through to him or if you even should, I have no idea, but it took me nine months of NC to finally get the picture. You probably should just focus on yourself.

I don't think I'd call you stupid- I just think you're in an unfortunate situation. As Tal said, you need to find a better way to vent your frustrations. I don't think it will change.

You're with someone that puts you down and makes you feel weak. A relationship should bring out the best in you and lift you up. This one doesn't. This person infuriates you to the point of putting your hands on him. That's not healthy. Then he retaliates. And then it's a fight.

I'm speaking from personal experience when I tell you that you think that just because you start it that he's justified in continuing it. I disagree and I'll raise you one... I do believe that if he's not now, that he will soon be the one to start the physical fights.

This is an unhealthy situation no matter how you cut it. This man has beat you down emotionally and brainf**d you to that point that you are starting to believe what he says.

You are better than this. I think you are a sassy and intelligent woman. But this type of situation can happen to even the smartest of smart. Intelligence has nothing to do with abuse. The important thing here is your daughter and she doesn't need to be around this.

Mudweiser, I am glad you joined a gym because it's a good way to get rid of build stress and frustration and overall healthy for you.

Mudweizer, you said:

"I've also noticed that now we are starting to get physical; I do admit I hit him, slap him, bite him, pull his hair, shove him or just anything to get him off me [and he doesn't hold back to hit me, pull my hair, or do whatever I did to him"

If this isn't abusive, what the hell is it.

Slapshot_oi, on your post I agreed with you but I met to write in your comment box " glad to hear your point of view and insight" but some how I didn't.

What is today Monday? I am off today.

mudweizer, you said:

"I've also noticed that now we are starting to get physical; I do admit I hit him, slap him, bite him, pull his hair, shove him or just anything to get him off of me [and he doesn't hold back to hit me, pull my hair, or do whatever I did to him"

If this isnt' abusive, what the hell is it.


What I was trying to say was he does whatever I do back. He doesn't start it- I realize we are both physical abusers.

Please don't think I'm trying to ignore your advice- I'm taking everyone's advice to heart whether I agree with it or not.

I believe the truth is being told even if I can't see it [since I've been "brain f***].

MRS.S

That's is more of a reason to leave because the two of you get physical with one another and after all a child is in the house, watching your interactions with each other.

Maybe it's all about escalation, that too is an important part of this.

Where arguments started, and were not resolved in a mature, appropriate way and differences were not settled.

Then come the putdowns by him, to control you. If he hits yourself esteem hard enough, you will shut down; he's seen it time and time again.

Then next it comes to physical violence, where he also knows that you are about to lose it. Instead of him stopping, or walking away, or leaving the house for a drive to cool off, he keeps at you and at you, knowing what you are going to do.

Which in turn, gives him license, to give back what you gave him.

I suspect that he has convinced you that YOU start everything. You are responsible for pushing HIS buttons, and he is therefore justified in retaliation. Who has created this, and for what purpose.

Two things. That he needs to satisfy his anger, no matter what. He has you to allow him to do that.

And, he knows your resolve is weak. You have already left him twice. I do not believe that you realize just how toxic this relationship is, and how you are being manipulated.

I'm not saying you don't have a bad temper here, maybe you do, and I'm not saying there isn't a 'dance' going on, that the two of you are playing off each other, knowing what is going to happen, and not choosing to find ways to stop it before somebody gets punched.

That you are led so easily by how his words start with you, and how you respond to them, clearly you must see what is coming.

That he, as a man, does this, and methodically calculates his 'needs' to inflict harm under the auspices of 'fair retaliation', is emotionally, and psychologically bankrupt.

You must find the strength to seek help, and not allow this to happen again. One punch is too many.

One thing for sure, the boundaries of good behavior has been crossed by you both.

The only way to get it back, is to define what's right, and what's wrong, and you both stick to what's right.

That takes working together, through honest communications, knowing when to listen, and knowing when to shut up, by you both.

Do you have that capability, if so, you haven't shown it so far.

Hopefully when you do get your driver's license your world will change for the better. At least you will be able to take a drive with your daughter in the car and just cool off or get away for a few hours.

His reaction to you leaving is quite typical. He does not want to lose his "plaything" that he enjoys belittling. If I were you I'd just take him at face value for now and just keep on your plan to leave once the bills are paid and you can see your way clear to go.

In the meantime I see you are getting some self esteem back. GOOD FOR YOU! It shows that you are not truly beaten down by him so totally that you cannot do something good for yourself.

Hopefully things will work out until you can see your way clear to leave him in an amicable manner. In the meantime, please keep us posted on your progress as it is good to hear that you are a strong woman and will prevail in the end over this trial in your life.

People who abuse other people - mentally, physically - are bullies. That bullying behavior carries into all aspects of their lives. It seems the more insecure they become, they more they have to bully and control other people.

If he has to put you down to build himself up I see little hope here.

Thanks everyone for all your time, your advice and sharing your personal experiences to help me when I'm clearly lost.

A thankful,

MRS.S

Well I made the decision to leave the marriage. However I find myself quite scared and nervous to be out on my own. Last night I realized that it's over and I felt this really odd feeling in my heart that made me want to stay [what is that?]

Is this a normal feeling- I want to stick to my guns, how do I get over it? I've left him before but I came back. We have a two year old together so NC wouldn't be a great thing to do.

I do have a previous thread explaining more about my marriage

MRS.S

Dear Mud,
I've been in a similar situation as you've described and I feel your pain. Really I do.

One thing I'd suggest is to stop focusing on what you can't do and begin lifting yourself up. You said you can't pay 1st and last month's rent to set up an apartment... well keep checking. Some apartments only require a small deposit and then you pay your first month's rent. Do you have any friends or family that would let you crash at their place for a while? Given the situation and the fact that you have a child, I think someone would be more than willing to give you a place to rest your head until you can save up the money. Do you belong to a church?- if so, your church may have funds to help you with the deposit.

Speaking from personal experience, this situation will not get better. Your husband obviously doesn't see that there's anything wrong with the situation and he would have to in order to see the need for change. You can't stick around waiting on him to figure out that things are bad. Not to mention, do you really want your daughter growing up around this nonsense? Do you want her to think that this is how relationships work and how she should expect to be treated by a man?

The thing is, you have to have it in your mind that you want to move on. You can not waiver.

With my ex (my son's father), it started out as verbal. Then it moved to a little push here or there. Next thing I know, he jumped on me because I found out he was doing the same thing you mentioned (trolling on the internet for women). Like so many women, I fell for the "I'm sorry, it'll never happen again, I'll get help"-line. We were apart for about 3 months when I let him come back. Within 2 weeks, I thought he was about to kill me. I ended it right then and there and never looked back.

About a month later I found I was pregnant with my son. I still don't regret ending it. Not only I'm not sitting around worrying about what he might be doing with the girls from the internet, I'm not worried that I'm gonna come home to a fight every evening after work.

Get out for you and your daughter's sake.

Had to spread the rep but I hear you loud and clear,having had this drama in my past as well.The day I ended it was the day I got my life back.

Well I made the decision to leave the marriage. However I find myself quite scared and nervous to be out on my own. Last night I realized that it's over and I felt this really odd feeling in my heart that made me want to stay [what is that?]

Is this a normal feeling- I want to stick to my guns, how do I get over it? I've left him before but I came back. We have a two year old together so NC wouldn't be a great thing to do.

I do have a previous thread explaining more about my marriage

MRS.S

I read your previous thread and I sorry you are going through such a difficult time.

I felt this really odd feeling in my heart that made me want to stay [what is that?]
Even an abusive relationship is hard to let go of.You get into a state of acceptance and live for those rare moments when things appear good. We cling to what is familiar,even if that familiar thing is dangerous and unhealthy.

Change is difficult and since you are not as independent as you intend to be,it is easy to fall back on him because you need him for some things.

That is why so many women stay in an abusive relationship.They feel stuck.

After being degraded for such a long time,yourself esteem must be suffering as well.

It is never easy and you will have doubts but the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior and clearly,he is not able or willing to change.

You need to surround yourself with a good support network and rely on your network to give you the extra strength you need right now.Mom,sister,friends,keep them on speed dial.
And of course you know we are here for you hon,even if you just need a place to rant.

And of course you know we are here for you hon,even if you just need a place to rant.

Thanks Art, that really means a lot. I've been crying for the last few days. I know what I want but this icky feeling won't leave me be.

MRS.S

Hi Mudweiser,

We are all here for you. You will be fine and will start seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

Divorce is scary as are all breakups. But, as you begin to be on your own, you will feel as though a huge weight has been lifted and you will no longer be abused. You can now live your own life with your child and have the quality of life in which you deserve.

Well I made the decision to leave the marriage. However I find myself quite scared and nervous to be out on my own. Last night I realized that it's over and I felt this really odd feeling in my heart that made me want to stay [what is that?]

Is this a normal feeling- I want to stick to my guns, how do I get over it? I've left him before but I came back. We have a two year old together so NC wouldn't be a great thing to do.
MRS.S
Yeah it's normal, it takes a lot time to adjust to being on your own after having been with someone for four years.

The only way to get over it is NC, however feasible in your situation.

I think it would be scarier if you weren't scared, you are headed to new territory, but when the old territory is toxic, you HAVE TO make the move.

Make sure that all contact is limited to the child, abusers use children as a way to continue their control over their partner.

It is always a good suggestion to seek out counseling and support groups, you are going to need a new support network to help aleviate your desire to return to the toxic land because in the beginning you will remember the territory as lush and green, you will forget how everything was dying and spoiled.

I know I would be getting support from a few friends- as for my family [minus two sisters]--well we're not close so that's out of the question.

I love my hometown, the only thing I don't really like about is the fact that my mother is still there. She and I don't get along very well- and I know she'd be adding stress once I move back there.


P.S I'm feeling this crazy feeling.. jealousy. Jealous that he's going to be going to strip clubs, maybe go talk to his ex again, jump into another relationship- ick! Hope it's not just crazy talk and it's okay to feel this too..


Thanks for the support guys.


MRS.S

Do you have to move back to your mom's or can you get a place on your own?

As far as him going out to strip clubs or talking to other women, let him. Realize that whoever he meets, chances are he will put them through the same hell he put you through. That is the kind of person he is. You yourself will meet someone so much better. Try not to focus on what he is doing or what he may or may not do. Just know you are doing the right thing for you and your child.

Do you have to move back to your mom's or can you get a place on your own?

I am going to be saving up my money for an apartment- right now I have to pay for bills. My goal is to be able to move by the end of next month.


As far as him going out to strip clubs or talking to other women, let him. Realize that whoever he meets, chances are he will put them through the same hell he put you through. That is the kind of person he is. You yourself will meet someone so much better. Try not to focus on what he is doing or what he may or may not do. Just know you are doing the right thing for you and your child.


It's just this weird feeling that tugs at my heart- I really don't like it. I've never felt this way before- it's so odd and I really would like to terminate it.

MRS.S

What I was trying to say was he does whatever I do back. He doesn't start it- I realize we are both physical abusers.

Please don't think i'm trying to ignore your advice- I'm taking everyone's advice to heart whether I agree with it or not.

I believe the truth is being told even if I can't see it [since i've been "brain f***].

MRS.S


But he does start it Mrs. S. Regardless of who starts the actual argument, he is like the conductor of an orchestra. He commands a little bit of strings here (you've done me wrong again), with a little sax (increasing the dour mood with anticipation), then he gets the percussion to accent the sad music with some loud bangs on the drums, followed by more instruments as he increases the tempo and the intensity. Then, before you know it the entire 200 member orchestra is belting out Halleluja!! with the same decibels as a jumbo jet taking off.

He is typical of an abuser in that regard. He is angry, and needs a target. He cannot take his orchestra to work, or over to his best friends house where his friends are watching the game, or to the barber's to get a haircut. They may see the orchestra in the back of his truck, but they are silent.

He has to play the music, and he insists that you dance to it. He knows how you are going to react after the strings start, and he knows that by the time he finishes with a big crescendo at the end, you want to kill the conductor because the music has made you crazy. It's too loud, it's too confusing, it's too intense, and you don't like the mood it has created. Yet you cannot stop it, because you are no longer in a calm place, you are reacting with emotion and fear in the worst possible way.

Which gives him licence to 'hit back', although he's been hitting for the last hour, just in a different way; he's hitting you emotionally.

He is going to play the music until you decide not to dance to it anymore.

I know that feeling. It's because you have been with someone so long and you have every intension of spending your life with them, and then it ends. You are used to being with that person, and now a big change is happening. It is scary as hell, and I can guarantee that is what you are feeling. It is going to take you time to readjust, but once you get your own place, especially when you begin to decorate it with your things the way you want, you are going to feel a wonderful sense of independence (trust me I was there too). You will start to see (maybe without even realizing it) that your life is getting back on track, and that light at the end of the tunnel is so much brighter.

I see two things here.

One is the love you have for him. A very deep emotional bond that may never leave you, even after you leave him. Love is one of those things that blind us to what is underneath the love. Sometimes the worse the behaviour is of the one you love, the more you try to love him, by justifying the behaviour, accepting the fault, etc. anything to keep loving him. You believe he loves you, and he may very well love you, and despite his behaviour, you accept the love you have for him to justify his abusiveness, over and over.

The second thing is to separate the love from the reality. The reality, as you are beginning to see now, is that when you observe and reflect on just the behaviour, without the emotion of love, you are seeing who this person really is. Look at it as an outsider, or look at the behaviour critically, as though you were offering an opinion on it to your best friends concerns over her husband.

It isn't hard to imagine a happy life without abuse. It is a far better place to be secure and loved for all the right reasons, and to love a person back, once you can separate the love from the situation and tuck it away in a safe place.

You may love him still after he pinches, punches, pushes and humiliates you, but, love aside, can you really live with the person?

My opinion is that a grieving process takes place after any emotional loss. Once you have decided to move on, it takes time and reflection to work through what naturally occurs when your ties no longer exist with him. Being sad and confused, hurt and angry, are all to be expected, and like any loss, those feelings eventually leave and you move on.

The key is to remember that you may very well love him in some part of your heart, for all of your life, and that's okay. But, never lose sight of your goal, and when you start to second guess yourself, take a step back and replay the reasons you must let go. It gets easier with time.

You have to go through it, not only to free yourself, but to not repeat the same pattern over with another man in the future.

Look at it as an outsider, or look at the behaviour critically, as though you were offering an opinion on it to your best friends concerns over her husband.

I often told myself, if I saw myself in a movie I'd be yelling "you big dummy, get out!".


The rest of your post, all rings true! Thanks for your opinion it'll be forever cherished [along with everyone else's ;)]

I know it'll be a long time till I can post a thank-you thread for everyone but thanks in advance. Sounds like I'm saying thanks a lot but it really does mean a lot to me- I don't know any other way to say it..

http://msp207.photobucket.com/albums/bb156/Mariajoy_photos/BigHugsThankYou.jpg

MRS.S

Mudweiser, just keep your head up and always do what is right for you and your daughter.

And remember "what don't kill you only makes you stronger".

And remember "what don't kill you only makes you stronger".


Or critically ill :p

MRS.S

Can you sit down to talk with him? If so,then ask him what he thinks about the marriage.I would just come out and say to him "Do you have to be right all the time?".Would he rather be right or be happy.Being right or wrong about things is just so trivial.I think its more important to be happy then to be right.

Can you sit down to talk with him? If so,then ask him what he thinks about the marriage.I would just come out and say to him "Do you have to be right all the time?".Would he rather be right or be happy.Being right or wrong about things is just so trivial.I think its more important to be happy then to be right.

Thanks for the response. I've done this numerous times and it hasn't helped.

::UPDATE::

I called it quits with my husband- He now knows for sure- loud and clear.

MRS.S

Kudos for you! I wished you lived in NY so we could go out and paint the town red.

Keep your stance and don't in--no matter how hard he begs.

Kudos for you! I wished you lived in NY so we could go out and paint the town red.

Keep your stance and don't in--no matter how hard he begs.

Thanks Liz- too bad I like 10 hour away!

MRS.S

I am going to be saving up my money for an apartment- right now I have to pay for bills. My goal is to be able to move by the end of next month.




It's just this wierd feeling that tugs at my heart- I really don't like it. I've never felt this way before- it's so odd and I really would like to terminate it.

MRS.S

That feeling is normal... in time, it will dissipate.

That was so sweet!

Just take it one day at a time. Each day your grow stronger and stronger. Remember behind every dark cloud there is a rainbow and your rainbow is going shine very bright once it appear.

I am rooting for you and your thread is going give another person strength to move on from a bad situation.

I be rooting for you.

Wow! I found this great article: I hope this gets stickied or something:

Victims of abuse hardly ever stay. They leave and then come back, over and over. Researchers call it the "rubber band" or "elastic" effect. There are often social and financial reasons and, in the case of severe battering, very real life threats by the criminal abuser: "If I can't have you, no one will." But fear, finances, and social pressures are not among the reasons most victims offer for why they return, and they certainly do not seem to be factors in this celebrated case.

Abuse victims leave and return because, unlike the parties of non-abusive relationships, they leave while they are still attached. As long as they are attached, they are subject to the survival-level force of emotional bonding.

The formation of strong emotional bonds gave early humans a distinct survival advantage over more numerous and powerful competition, such as big cats, dogs, and other hominids. The ability to form emotional bonds facilitated mutual protection and sustenance, which led to a psychological melding of survival with attachment. We not only attached to survive, we survived to attach.

Throughout most of human history, leaving emotionally-bonded relationships meant certain death by starvation or saber tooth tiger. Consequently, we developed powerful aversions to separation in the form of guilt, shame, and anxiety. Psychologically, these serve as distance-regulators in relationships, pushing us back when we stray too far and motivating more emotional investment when we lose interest or jeopardize a bond.

As distance-regulators, guilt, shame, and anxiety work unconsciously and irrationally. That is why someone you love can beat you to the point where you can barely crawl to the phone to dial 911, and you will feel guilty about it, as soon as your fear, anger, or resentment subsides.

Most victims pulled away by fear, anger, or resentment end up returning out of guilt, shame, and anxiety, when they see how lost their partners seem without them or, sometimes worse, how well they do without them.

If they reunite to relieve guilt, shame, and anxiety, rather than rekindle genuine compassion, trust, and love in both parties, attempts to reattach will fail. Fear, anger, or resentment will again begin to push the pendulum of pain to the opposite side of the arc, where they once again give way to the wall of guilt-shame-anxiety that swings victims back to abusers.

I have seen swings back and forth on the pendulum of pain extend up to 30 years, despite victims immersing themselves in psychotherapy and self-help books, all of which told them that it wasn't really love they experienced, but unresolved emotional hunger from childhood or some kind of addiction. "Experts" always lose them when they say it isn't love, because they know what they experience.

What they experience is love, along with fear, resentment, anger, guilt, shame, and anxiety, which relentlessly re-stimulate each other to keep them trapped in the pendulum of pain. What they do not experience is compassion from the abuser. (The abuser's guilt and shame focus on how bad he feels, which makes him pressure you to "get over it" so he can feel better. In contrast, compassion focuses on helping you heal your hurt.) Neither do victims experience compassion for the abuser's self-destructiveness.

Abuse of Loved Ones is Self-destruction

If the abuser was to witness (or even imagine) someone else doing what they did to the, he would feel anger, loathing, and a powerful impulse to harm her assailant. Anger, aggression, and loathing are unconscious and automatic in most social animals as part of the instinct to protect attachment figures. When we harm loved ones, they turn onto the self, with only a thin veneer of ego as a buffer.

When we harm loved ones, the self-loathing (as an attachment figure) burrows through ego to create the downward spiral of abuse. (Who is more likely to abuse, the valued self or the devalued self?) Without learning compassion, the abuser will merely blame his/her self-destructiveness on the victim or childhood or stress or the economy or whatever, and thereby lose control of it.

Victims and abusers alike must understand that compassion is the healing emotion - no abuser will heal without developing it. The most compassionate thing a victim can do is insist that the abuser invoke his/her basic humanity. This is how we all regulate abusive impulses, which, if acted on, would make us feel less humane. If the abuser fails at basic humanity, the only compassionate thing to do is break the pendulum of pain and leave permanently, in the hope that the abuser can find healing elsewhere.


MRS.S

Amen to that Mrs. S.

Excellent find.

Hope you are doing okay.

Amen to that Mrs. S.

Excellent find.

Hope you are doing okay.


I'm doing better, I feel like there's been a wieght lifted off me. I don't know if it's a temporary high but I'm feeling good. Thanks to everyone, for the stern but gentle bump.

Sarah [I don't want to be MRS. anymore ;)]

Hit me in the head, type your stern comments, because I made a boo-boo.

My ex husband, Sam, and I had intercourse when I saw him. We've always had a great sexual chemistry and now that we're not together there's like this big draw to him.

God I feel so stupid. I'll keep it in my pants next time guys.

Most people would've hidden this little bit of information, but I feel that I should be honest to you guys about what I'm going through- hope you understand :(

Sarah

Hit me in the head, type your stern comments, because I made a boo-boo.

My ex husband, Sam, and I had intercourse when I saw him. We've always had a great sexual chemistry and now that we're not together there's like this big draw to him.

God I feel so stupid. I'll keep it in my pants next time guys.

Most people would've hidden this little bit of information, but I feel that I should be honest to you guys about what I'm going through- hope you understand :(

Sarah

Is he married? Or involved with somebody?

Is he married?



Did you read the whole thread?

To Sarah - I'm going to get beat up here but I don't think that's all that terrible. You're two consenting adults. The sex was good. The relationship was bad. The nights get long and lonely. There's a pull.

Nobody is cheating on anybody. Have sex with him, just don't get pulled back into a relationship.

Here's the part where everybody beats me up, I'm afraid!

Is he married? Or involved with somebody?

Lol silly. Sam is my husband- the one I'm leaving...

Sarah

You are only human my dear,don't beat yourself up.
Try to have a realistic plan of action.If seeing him is going to make you backtrack ten steps than know your vulnerabilities and be prepared.Face him with the attitude that ,I can resist his charms,I am strong,I can do what I came here to do.
Just because counseling was a flop one time,doesn't mean that it will always be.
Maybe you two could still benefit from it as long as you live separate while going.
Many churches offer free counseling and it is not about religion or faith ,they are trained to help with communication,fair fighting,all the tools that people need to get through tough times.
We are all rooting for you.You need to do the same and don't worry what anyone thinks.Its what you think that matters most.

Did you read the whole thread?

To Sarah - I'm going to get beat up here but I don't think that's all that terrible. You're two consenting adults. The sex was good. The relationship was bad. The nights get long and lonely. There's a pull.

Nobody is cheating on anybody. Have sex with him, just don't get pulled back into a relationship.

Here's the part where everybody beats me up, I'm afraid!

No need to be snarky. I have been reading this thread- if I missed a detail, I apologize to the former Mrs. S.

No need to be snarky. I have been reading this thread- if I missed a detail, I apologize to the former Mrs. S.

Sorry, LOL! I thought you were speaking of a previous ex!

Hmm.. I just saw him for a quick min. The whole time was horrible. He told me to get off the computer and get some "real" friends.

He still gets to me, I'm so angry with him for actually saying that and I actually feel even bad for being on a lot.

How do I get those little remarks that hurt so bad not to hurt?

One sad,
Sarah

hmm.. I just saw him for a quick min. The whole time was horrible. He told me to get off the computer and get some "real" friends.

He still gets to me, I'm so angry with him for actually saying that and I actually feel even bad for being on a lot.

How do I get those little remarks that hurt so bad not to hurt?

One sad,
Sarah

I would have had a good comeback for him... Im going out tonight and INTEND TO DO JUST THAT (snap)

Honey,your still wrapped up in him so he's going to get to you.Know that you are doing what gets you through and if being here and helping others is assuaging your pain,screw him.. its better than going out and getting trashed and screwing around.
Just take his insults for what they are,a way to bring you down.Don't give him that much power. By the way I just took my pulse and I'M REAL!

My icky feeling is a little over. I got off and cried a little. I hate how he has this "power" over me. I really hate it. He can make me cry just like that [snap].

Thanks Art. I know you guys are real- either that or I'd be talking to some really good automated ask me helping computers.

Sarah

Sweetie I just found this thread.

You'll get through all of this, you're tougher then you give yourself credit for, and yes, you are smart.

Stick to your guns, be your own person, he's not in control anymore, you are. Don't let him push you around, he has no right to do that.

Now, stand up straight, chin up, shoulders back and repeat after me "I am strong, I am the master of me, I will not let others push me around, I will stand on my own, I will fight for what I want, I will win, I am woman, hear me roar!"

I had to throw that last bit in there, it always makes me giggle.

ROAR! :)

Most times I tell people, not to have sex with people they are trying to get away from.

Hey we make mistakes, and as long as you can see it for what it is, a romp in the hay, and not let false hope creep into your brain, then your good to go.

Having said that, don't let that romp in the hay, soften your resolve not to have him control you.

Then I would have to give you some rather harsh advice, You understand.:eek:

Yes Sir, Tal!

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:7sNQNp69Wxd6XM:http://web1mdcs.state.mi.us/WebCasts/VeteransResources/images/Salute.jpg

P.S. I am no longer intimate with him- that was a one time thing. I found that if I keep doing that I will regress.

Thank you all for being here.

Sarah

Mudweiser;1674953
P.S. I am no longer intimate with him- that was a one time thing. I found that if I keep doing that I will regress.

Thank you all for being here.

Sarah

Yes, don't repeat that mistake. Stay strong! I know you have needs but you can always invest in toys.:-)

Comments on this post
88sunflower agrees: Toys? LOL don't we all have a tickle truck?? That's what I like to call mine.

Tickle truck? That's a new one. Your crazy 88Sunflower! Lol You learn something new everyday.

Thanks for the suggestion liz. You're a pal.

Sarah