I am interested only in evidence biblical or otherwise (such as from the early Church writings) about asking the saints to pray for us or others.
I am NOT interested in any posts contrary to that.
:confused:Peace and kindness,:confused:
Fred

I am interested only in evidence biblical or otherwise (such as from the early Church writings) about asking the saints to pray for us or others.
I am NOT interested in any posts contrary to that.
:confused:Peace and kindness,:confused:
Fred

BIBLICAL EVIDENCE

Hi Fred,

The Scriptures tell us that saints are to intercede for each other.

1 Timothy 2:1
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Scripture also tells us that the Saints in heaven are alive.

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

And that the Saints are a cloud of witnesses which surrounds us.

Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Since we know that God wills us to pray for each other on earth, and Our Lord's prayer says that what is done in heaven should be done on earth, then we know that God wills the Saints pray for us in heaven as well.

And since we know that Jesus is our example and since we know that Jesus constantly offers intercession for us in heaven, then we know that the Saints in heaven are imitating Jesus and offering intercession for us as well.

OLD TESTAMENT EVIDENCE

In the Maccabbees account, we find this record of a Saint in heaven making intercession for the Jews:

2 Macc 15:11 So he armed every one of them, not with defence of shield and spear, but with very good speeches and exhortations, and told them a dream worthy to be believed, whereby he rejoiced them all. 12 Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: 13 After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: 14 Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God. 15 Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying:

16 Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel. 17 Thus being exhorted with the words of Judas, which were very good, and proper to stir up the courage, and strengthen the hearts of the young men, they resolved to fight, and to set upon them manfully: that valour might decide the matter, because the holy city and the temple were in danger.

OTHER EVIDENCE

LOGICAL

The Saints in heaven are the just made perfect who have confirmed their friendship with God and who now have access to God. They see Him face to face. Therefore, we believe their prayers will be heard on our behalf:

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

HISTORICAL

From the historical record, we find that the earliest Christians were already praying to Mary and the Saints:

I. Intercessory Power and Veneration of the Saints

"[T]hat it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples! The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps." Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18 (A.D. 157).

"[Appealing to the three companions of Daniel] Think of me, I beseech you, so that I may achieve with you the same fate of martyrdom." Hippolytus of Rome, On Daniel, 11:30 (A.D. 204).
Scripture Catholic - SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER (http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html)

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria,
Thank you so much.
That is the kind of evidence I'm interested in.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

And that the Saints are a cloud of witnesses which surrounds us.

Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Since we know that God wills us to pray for each other on earth, and Our Lord's prayer says that what is done in heaven should be done on earth, then we know that God wills the Saints pray for us in heaven as well.

And since we know that Jesus is our example and since we know that Jesus constantly offers intercession for us in heaven, then we know that the Saints in heaven are imitating Jesus and offering intercession for us as well.

De Maria

The cloud of witnesses is a term used and is like saying a cloud of birds (a flock or group) .. So in todays term of speak, it would be a group of witnesses.. (Luke 1:2) & (1 Peter 1:16)

The scripture is in reference of having had a group of witnesses that were eyewitnesses of The Word, both pretaining to the flesh and written evidence for us that is in The Word. The evidence of the weight that put aside all other weights that were of darkness, and who brought us light.. (Romans 3:12)

This concludes that what was written was witnessed and was evidence for us. The Word inspired by the Holy Spirit was God's way in communication to us. Chirst is the light to follow, and in HIM is the plummet=(weight) of righteousness = (straight line of truth)

Communication is in The Word & The will of God on earth as in heaven is righteousness.=TRUTH

`in Christ

The cloud of witnesses is a term used and is like saying a cloud of birds (a flock or group) .. So in todays term of speak, it would be a group of witnesses.. (Luke 1:2) & (1 Peter 1:16)

The scripture is in reference of having had a group of witnesses that were eyewitnesses of The Word, both pretaining to the flesh and written evidence for us that is in The Word. The evidence of the weight that put aside all other weights that were of darkness, and who brought us light.. (Romans 3:12)

This concludes that what was written was witnessed and was evidence for us. The Word inspired by the Holy Spirit was God's way in communication to us. Chirst is the light to follow, and in HIM is the plummet=(weight) of righteousness = (straight line of truth)

Communication is in The Word & The will of God on earth as in heaven is righteousness.=TRUTH

`in Christ

There is a grain of truth in what you say. But the cloud of witnesses calls to mind Elisha's mountain of chariots.

2 Kings 6:16-18 (King James Version)

16And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

17And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

18And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.

We are always surrounded by God's saints.

Sincerely,

De Maria

We are always surrounded by God's saints.

Sincerely,

De Maria

That is true and those thousands are what we know as HIS angels. (Psalms 68:17)

saints 6918 are the fallen angels (Job 15:15)

saints 6944 holy hallowed (Dan 11:30)

saints 2623 kind godly (Psalms 30:4)(Psalms145:17)

saints 40 religious awe reverence(Romans 15:25)

angels 4397 representive (Psalms 91:11)

angels 32 messenger of God (Matthew 4:6)(Luke 4:10)

Revel 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints (40= prayers from earth to God)
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. (saints 40 prayers from earth to God)

That is true and those thousands are what we know as HIS angels. (Psalms 68:17)

saints 6918 are the fallen angels (Job 15:15)

saints 6944 holy hallowed (Dan 11:30)

saints 2623 kind godly (Psalms 30:4)(Psalms145:17)

saints 40 religious awe reverence(Romans 15:25)

angels 4397 representive (Psalms 91:11)

angels 32 messenger of God (Matthew 4:6)(Luke 4:10)

Revel 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints (40= prayers from earth to God)
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. (saints 40 prayers from earth to God)

As you mentioned above, the word Saint simply means "holy".

saints 6944 holy hallowed (Dan 11:30)

We also consider the angels to be "holy" thus Saints. For instance, St. Michael, St. Gabriel and St. Rafael, the Archangels.

Note that the prayers of the saints came before God by the intercession of a saint. An angel.

Note also these martyred saints who prayed directly to God:
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

And they received robes and instructions. They were alive and kicking and aware.

There's a whole other world out there sndbay, which we can't see. But they are in a war for our souls. It seems strange, don't you think, that people believe that their demons and evil spirits can hear us and respond to our words, but they believe that the good spirits of God's children are shackled.

Mighty strange.

Actually, the reverse is true. Protestants and those religions which resulted from the Reformation believe that saints die and therefore you call the communion of saints prayer to dead people.

Whilst the rest of Christendom, Catholics, Orthodox, Copts, Syriacs etc. etc. believe you can pray to Saints. And by the rest of Christendom, I mean 80% of the Christian world.

The Vatican recently put the number of Catholics in the world at 1.13 billion people.
Muslims more numerous than Catholics: Vatican | Top News | Reuters (http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKL3068682420080330)

The Eastern Orthodox Church is the second largest single Christian communion in the world with an estimated 225 million members worldwide.
Eastern Orthodox Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church)

There are approximately 500 million Protestants in the world. {1}
Christian Protestantism - ReligionFacts (http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/denominations/protestantism.htm)

That doesn't even count the other ancient Christian religions. And easily accounts for many more Christians who pray to Saints than those who believe that Saints are dead.

Actually, the reverse is true. Protestants and those religions which resulted from the Reformation believe that saints die and therefore you call the communion of saints prayer to dead people.

Are you claiming that the saints in heaven have living flesh?

Who was with Jesus on the Mount before he accended. They seemed alive to me in the writing.

Sndbay and De Maria,
Thanks for the very interesting conversation.
Fr Chuck, Not Only were Moses and Elijah alive on the mountain with Jesus they also had bodies.
Jesus is in heaven with His body along with God's heavenly saints.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Not Only were Moses and Elijah alive on the mountain with Jesus they also had bodies.

Fred,

I commented to you this once before in another thread and did not get an answer.

What makes you think that Moses had a body of flesh?

What makes you think that Moses had a body of flesh?
In Luke 9:30, Jesus is talking with Moses and Elijah who are described as "men," and were not described as a vision or apparitions. The word that is used to describe Moses and Elijah is the Greek aner. This word is used in the Bible 212 times, and, except for four instances, it is clearly used as a reference to male human beings. Also, we also know that Jesus Christ in his spiritual reality was able to manifest himself as a human being, and was able to be physically touched. (paraphased from evidenceoftruth.org)

Wondergirl,
You did a wonderful job of answering Tom Smith question for me.
The three apostles on the mountain with Jesus, Moses and Elijah saw three men, not three spirits who are invisible.
The answer is obvious. You saw it, I did but apparently others can not sometime see the obvious.
Thanks,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

In Luke 9:30, Jesus is talking with Moses and Elijah who are described as "men," and were not described as a vision or apparitions.

No one even suggested that they were visions or apparitions. If a person is a spirit, that makes the person no less a man, but because a person is a man does not mean that they have a body of flesh.

The question was specific because Fred said that Moses has a body, which suggests that he was in the flesh. You comments did not address that.

Wondergirl,
You did a wonderful job of answering Tom Smith question for me.
The three apostles on the mountain with Jesus, Moses and Elijah saw three men, not three spirits who are invisible.

You think that spirits are invisible, Fred?

How do you explain Moses seeing God's backside?

Ex 33:21-23
21 And the LORD said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."
NKJV

How do you explain many people seeing angels?

Gen 19:1
19:1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground.
NKJV

Or are you saying that God and the angels have bodies of flesh also?

No one even suggested that they were visions or apparitions. If a person is a spirit, that makes the person no less a man, but because a person is a man does not mean that they have a body of flesh.
Job 19:26

Or are you saying that God and the angels have bodies of flesh also?
Were God and angels corporal beings on earth at one time?

As you mentioned above, the word Saint simply means "holy".

There's a whole other world out there sndbay, which we can't see. But they are in a war for our souls. It seems strange, don't you think, that people believe that their demons and evil spirits can hear us and respond to our words, but they believe that the good spirits of God's children are shackled.

Mighty strange.

I believe... in using more then causion concerning praying to saints/angels... they do not sit at right hand of God, they were servants, they are messenger from God ... Pray unto the Father!

Hebrews 1:12-13-14 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Note:
The fulfillment of our walk in Christ

Remembering who has control, and who does ordain order in command of all things.

(Psalms 149:9 Proverbs 2:8) = 2623 saints /adjective = godly man, kind, faithful one

Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
Proverbs 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

We acknowledge the battle against good and evil, and the darkness/ down fall to reaping from the enticing words of deception. (a time given) when men here on earth are the servants as saints to execute upon what has been written = (communication) = The Word.. We do give thanks unto God for the communication, the labor that was brought forward by the works of those that followed HIM. ( Knowing that through HIM = THE WORD = THE FLESH = CHRIST JESUS ) we walk in labor to righteousness, towards putting darkness at the footstool of God ( Matthew 5:35-48)

(Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? )


Darkness fell upon, and did wear out the saints which are in heaven = those that were our example = those living saints in heaven = change was made in time and laws to being today, and we are given HIS hand in unity to walk in HIM with HIS power to overcome the darkness " if" we stay in the light, " if " we follow HIM...

(Dan 7:25 Dan 7:27) = 6922 saints /aramaic adjective = angels, holy

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (two periods of time divided)

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Stange it is, to walk or pray in the spirit of any other name then Christ Jesus .


I give all glory and praise of thankfulness to God, who sent the saints who brought us HIS message of hope, light and love..

Are you claiming that the saints in heaven have living flesh?

I am claiming that Saints are alive in Christ, whether on earth or in heaven. Whether in the spirit or in the flesh.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I believe... in using more then causion concerning praying to saints/angels... they do not sit at right hand of God, they were servants, they are messenger from God ... Pray unto the Father!

I do so. But God has given me a family which loves each other. And just as I can ask you for prayer, I can ask them for prayer. For in our Godly family, not only does the Father talk with the Son and the Son with the Father, but our Mother in Christ speaks to her Son and to the Father in Heaven and we to her. And so we also speak to our brothers and sisters in Christ, whether they be here beside us or face to face with Jesus.

Our is not a dysfunctional family where communication is forbidden between the brothers and sisters.

Give me one verse that says we are to pray to people who have died? ONE? Look, our souls ALL continue to live and that includes HITLER... How about this.. give me one example where the Lord, the apostle Paul, Peter, James, John, or any other apostle EVER prayed to the dead!!

Give me one verse that says we are to pray to people who have died? ONE?

We don't pray to people who have died.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

That's a good question. Do you believe Jesus?


look, our souls ALL continue to live and that includes HITLER...

But I don't consider Hitler a saint. Do you? A saint is one who is alive in Christ. Not one who is dead in their sins.


How about this.. give me one example where the Lord, the apostle Paul, Peter, James, John, or any other apostle EVER prayed to the dead!!

If we prayed to the dead, I would do so. But we don't.

However, I can show you an example of a prayer to Abraham:
Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

De Maria,

Please name ONE SAINT that the Apostles prayed to? Thanks. YEs, your example was of two people who had passed and were speaking together in hell one on one side the other on the torment side. I'd like an example of one of the Apostles that were alive on this earth( the LORD included) where they prayed to a saint who had passed on.

I do so. But God has given me a family which loves each other. And just as I can ask you for prayer, I can ask them for prayer. For in our Godly family, not only does the Father talk with the Son and the Son with the Father, but our Mother in Christ speaks to her Son and to the Father in Heaven and we to her. And so we also speak to our brothers and sisters in Christ, whether they be here beside us or face to face with Jesus.

Our is not a dysfunctional family where communication is forbidden between the brothers and sisters.

DeMaria,

As one in Christ and Christ in me, I become one with Christ..

Now I can't imagine or beleive that Christ within me, would go to a saint in prayer.

Christ would go to HIS Father just as He ensampled and just as He taught us to do.

Gal 3:17 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 18 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I am claiming that Saints are alive in Christ, whether on earth or in heaven. Whether in the spirit or in the flesh.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


That is fine, but the restriction is in scripture is with respect to those who are dead in the flesh. That is, for some reason, a distinction that you and others seem to wish to avoid.

That is fine, but the restriction is in scripture is with respect to those who are dead in the flesh. That is, for some reason, a distinction that you and others seem to wish to avoid.
Restriction is for necromancy, the occult.

Job 19:26


Nice try, but that refers to Jesus who has not yet been manifested in the flesh in the timeframe that we are discussing.

Were God and angels corporal beings on earth at one time?

First, angels? No. Angels are spirit beings, not humans. Different creation.

Second, with respect to God, two persons of the trinity have never has bodies of flesh, and yet we can identify a specific time at Jesus' baptism where the Holy Spirit was visible. We also have cases in the OT where Jesus was visible prior to being born in the flesh.

So Fred's contention that spirits are always invisible as a means of differentiation who is in the flesh and who is not does not hold water,

Restriction is for necromancy, the occult.

"necro" refers to those who are dead in the flesh. Look up necromancy. Necormancy is communication with the dead (dead in the flesh), and yes, it is considered an occult practice.

De Maria,

Please name ONE SAINT that the Apostles prayed to? thanx. YEs, your example was of two people who had passed and were speaking together in hell one on one side the other on the torment side. I'd like an example of one of the Apostles that were alive on this earth( the LORD included) where they prayed to a saint who had passed on.

Good question. I look forward to the answer.

Acura,

It is NOT biblical. There is NO WHERE in the word where a living apostle prayed to a saint who had left his body and moved on. There is no instructions to pray to the saints that have passed. There is no instructions to pray to ANYONE other than God the Father in Jesus' name.

Tj3,

There is none. I don't get this practice at all. Why would I WANT to pray to a saint who has passed when I can go straight to the THRONE of the MOST HIGH GOD! WOW... I don't think christians fully understand the honor, privilege or power or they wouldn't waste their time asking a saint that had to be SAVED for help. It is kind of nutty. ( OK I expect to be badly bruised for that remark... bring it on.. lol )

This and the duplicate question have now spread over 350 posts, and the argument will continue to rage one side vs the other. Since the moderators see fit to remove a valid question maybe they will finally see fit to close this question as no one will ever convince the other side they are right/wrong.

It is NOT biblical.
Have you ever asked for a fellow Christian to pray for you or your family?

This and the duplicate question have now spread over 350 posts, and the argument will continue to rage one side vs the other. Since the moderators see fit to remove a valid question maybe they will finally see fit to close this question as no one will ever convince the other side they are right/wrong.
I got convinced during another thread.

Have you ever asked for a fellow Christian to pray for you or your family?
Asking a person that is still flesh and blood (alive) to pray for you is not at all like asking a spirit, saint, or what ever you choose to call those that have died to pray for you. Heck you might as well use a weegee board, you are trying to communicate using the same hokus pokus either way.

Asking a person that is still flesh and blood (alive) to pray for you is not at all like asking a spirit, saint, or what ever you choose to call those that have died to pray for you. Heck you might as well use a weegee board, you are trying to communicate using the same hokus pokus either way.
So you believe those who have died in Christ are dead in both flesh and spirit.

weegee = ouija (correct name)

Have you ever asked for a fellow Christian to pray for you or your family?

YES wondergirl, I sure have. I have asked them, never had to pray to them though. Course I could start. I could pray to my sister who lives several hours away to lift me up in prayer. It would be ridiculous however. I ASK people to pray for me. I don't pray to people to pray for me... and there is no where in the word that says I should or instructs me to do so. I pray only to my Heavenly Father in Jesus' name. The last time I looked in scripture... He is the only one that can hear me and answer me.

YES wondergirl, I sure have. I have asked them, never had to pray to them though. course i could start. I could pray to my sister who lives several hours away to lift me up in prayer. it would be ridiculous however. I ASK people to pray for me. I don't pray to people to pray for me....and there is no where in the word that says I should or instructs me to do so. I pray only to my Heavenly Father in Jesus' name. The last time I looked in scripture...He is the only one that can hear me and answer me.
Isn't asking the same as praying to? The English phrase "I pray you to tell me what that means" is the same as "I ask you to tell me what that means." So why not ask saints in heaven to pray for us just as we ask saints on earth to pray for us?

YES wondergirl, I sure have. I have asked them, never had to pray to them though. course i could start. I could pray to my sister who lives several hours away to lift me up in prayer. it would be ridiculous however. I ASK people to pray for me. I don't pray to people to pray for me....and there is no where in the word that says I should or instructs me to do so. I pray only to my Heavenly Father in Jesus' name. The last time I looked in scripture...He is the only one that can hear me and answer me.
Isn't asking the same as praying to? The English phrase "I pray you to tell me what that means" is the same as "I ask you to tell me what that means." So why not ask saints in heaven to pray for us just as we ask saints on earth to pray for us? Any answer comes from God.

I think you have the purpose of "praying to"/asking saints in heaven for intercession confused with "praying to" them to, for instance, heal you or protect you themselves. Only God has that power.

Never said that. But there is NO where in scriptures that tells you to pray to any spirits. That is a false teaching from the prince of false teachings Plane and simple.
But since that is not the answer that Fred wanted he insists on asking this same ridiculous quest over and over again.
Why is it so hard to understand the scriptures? Are there that many people blinded by their religion that they cannot see false teachings when it smacks them up side the head?

Never said that. But there is NO where in scriptures that tells you to pray to any spirits.
Nor is there any verse that tells us not to ask saints in heaven to intercede for us.

Ah but WG there is a place where the Lord specifically taught us how to pray. Luke 11:1-4. This would have the place for Jesus to teach something other than to pray directly to the father would it not?

Ah but WG there is a place where the Lord specifically taught us how to pray. Luke 11:1-4. This would have the place for Jesus to teach something other than to pray directly to the father would it not?
There are a lot of omissions in the NT. This prayer doesn't tell us to ask other Christians to pray for us either. And Jesus did pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." The point of the Lord's Prayer is that we depend on the Father for everything. Asking for intercessory prayers only encourages that.

Wondergirl,

I'm not confused about anything. I am talking about prayer in the spirit.. asking in the spirit. I TALK and ask fellow Christians to pray for me but I am not instructed anywhere to pray to another spirit. If it AIN't in the Bible... don't add it. That is my motto And guess what?. that motto is actually IN the Bible. Lol I think it works pretty darn well too! Where in the world does it say that Peter or Mary can even HEAR us pray? It is a waste of time and completely unbiblical.

As far as the Lord's prayer he was instructing US how to pray, he wasn't talking about intercessory prayer. There are NO omissions. What the Lord wants us to know... psst. It is IN THERE! ( like preggo)

Wondergirl,

I'm not confused about anything. I am talking about prayer in the spirit..asking in the spirit. I TALK and ask fellow Christians to pray for me but I am not instructed anywhere to pray to another spirit. If it AIN't in the Bible...don't add it. That is my motto And guess what?...that motto is actually IN the Bible. lol I think it works pretty darn well too! Where in the world does it say that Peter or Mary can even HEAR us pray? It is a waste of time and completely unbiblical.

As far as the Lord's prayer he was instructing US how to pray, he wasn't talking about intercessory prayer. There are NO omissions. What the Lord wants us to know...psst. it is IN THERE! ( like preggo)
Yup, I understand where you're coming from. I used to be there too. And I'm not Catholic either.

Tj3,

There is none. I don't get this practice at all. Why would I WANT to pray to a saint who has passed when I can go straight to the THRONE of the MOST HIGH GOD! WOW....i don't think christians fully understand the honor, privilege or power or they wouldn't waste their time asking a saint that had to be SAVED for help. It is kinda nutty. ( ok i expect to be badly bruised for that remark....bring it on..lol )

Yep. Let's look at it.

We can go directly to the throne of God the Father
We have God the Son as our mediator with God the Father
We have nothing in scripture telling us to pray to the dead
We have a prohibition against it in the Bible
We have an example of one attempt to communicate with a saint in heaven and God condemned the act.

Yep, it is beyond me why anyone woul;d ever want to do it.

Isn't asking the same as praying to? The English phrase "I pray you to tell me what that means" is the same as "I ask you to tell me what that means." So why not ask saints in heaven to pray for us just as we ask saints on earth to pray for us?

Praying TO someone is a form of worship.
Petitioning in a court is not praying TO the judge, but rather that is a different meaning for the word (check your dictionary).

Nor is there any verse that tells us not to ask saints in heaven to intercede for us.

There is sure is - it has been posted a few times during this discussion (in the prior thread)

Yup, I understand where you're coming from. I used to be there too. And I'm not Catholic either.

I disagree wit you.. you have never been there wondergirl or you wouldn't have given it up. Truth is always just that...

Yep. Let's look at it.

We can go directly to the throne of God the Father
We have God the Son as our mediator with God the Father
We have nothing in scripture telling us to pray to the dead
We have a prohibition against it in the Bible
We have an example of one attempt to communicate with a saint in heaven and God condemned the act.

Yep, it is beyond me why anyone woul;d ever want to do it.

Tj3.

I like the way you put things... direct, to the point and correct!

I disagree wit ya..you have never been there wondergirl or you wouldn't have given it up. Truth is always just that....
Yup, I was there, was raised that way, lived most of my life as a fundamentalist/evangelical.

Wondergirl,

You got enlightened... right? That's nice.I prefer truth.

Tj3,
What are you doing here?
I asked for positive evidence. You are continually negative in this subject.
You have caused the shutdown of one thread on this subject.
I'll be very displeased if you cause this one to go down.
Fred

wondergirl,

you got enlightened...right? That's nice.I prefer truth.
Enlightened is for a Buddhist.

I prefer to worship a God Who hasn't been smooshed into a little box.

Wondergirl,

I give you this much you are good with the little come backs. Ok... I prefer to worship my God in spirit and in truth. I also prefer (since he is the one that instructed us) not to add to his word. Believing and abiding in his truth is NOT putting him in a box.

Fred,

Wow, why you ticked at Tj3? I agreed with him. I don't think I am being negative.



Note. I just re read your question. Sorry I misunderstood it the first time.. I was giving you biblical truth. But it wasn't in agreement. So I guess maybe I am being negative in your eyes. :(

Wondergirl,

I give you this much you are good with the little come backs. Ok... I prefer to worship my God in spirit and in truth. I also prefer (since he is the one that instructed us) not to add to his word. Believing and abiding in his truth is NOT putting him in a box.

That is right. So often I hear people use this term "putting God in a box" to try to justify ignoring the limits that he gave us in scripture.



Fred,

Wow, why you ticked at Tj3? I agreed with him. I don't think I am being negative.

Fred's been like this with me for as long as I have known him (which is many years). I have offered my hand in friendship, I have asked him to take me up on my offer to take it off line so that we can discuss whatever is eating at him, and other suggestions, but he has outright turned down each of them.

classyT,
I also do most of my praying to God. But once in awhile I do asked the saints to pray to God for me.
I believe there is no sin in that and from the evidence that has been presented here and on another similar thread I know that there is no sin in asking the saints for help.
I am NOT picking on Tj3. I'm telling the truth.
In your case you are simply saying what you prefer or your choice in whom to pray to and that is good and fine.
I specifically asked for positive evidence that it is OK to ask saints to pray for us and have received some of that, Tj3 is attempting to provide the opposite against that and thus going against what has been aske for.
Some of my petitions to saints have been answered. To me that is proof that asking the saints for help does work.
As an example I have used a somewhat childish prayer to Saint Anthony, the patron saint for things that are lost.
It is, "Tony, Tony, look around. Somethings lost and must be found".
The I mention that which has been lost.
Lo and behold often what was lost is later found.
Was that an accident? Could be, but I think not for the request is often answered positively.
Try it sometime for yourself when something important to you has been lost.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
.

classyT,
I also do most of my praying to God. But once in awhile I do asked the saints to pray to God for me.
I believe there is no sin in that

Many people believe many things, but that does not make it right especially when it is specifically prohibited in scripture.

Th3,
SEE...
There you are with your negativeness.
If you have no positive answer to my request you are not addressing the topic which calls for evidence FOR asking saints to pray for us or others.

Fred, you have been answered so many times it is not even funny any more
THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS... N O N E!!

450donn,
Sorry donn, that is incorrect.
The post I have received FOR show that so far.
Fred

450donn,
Sorry donn, that is incorrect.
The post I have received FOR show that so far.
Fred

It makes one wonder why someone would ask a question and then decide that they will only listen to those who say what they wanted to hear to begin with.

I listen to what I asked for NOT what I didn't.

I listen to what I asked for NOT what I didn't.

That's what I said.

Please stay ON the topic of evidence FOR, nothing else.
Fred

Really, think about it. What's the worst that could happen if you do ask those who died in Christ to pray for you? Some think those spirits are sleeping until the Last Day, so then they wouldn't hear you. If they are indeed awake in heaven, God might be keeping them so busy that they don't notice you down on earth or maybe don't even hear you. Meanwhile, you have earthly saints praying for you and, of course, you are petitioning God. And if the saints in heaven hear you and pray to God for you, that's great! I don't see a problem.

Wondergirl,
You have made some good points with that.
Thanks,
Fred

Wondergirl,
You have made some good points with that.
Thanks,
Fred
I was the first grandchild on both sides of the family. I'm sure all four grandparents are in heaven, and they would be the first in line (after my father) to say a prayer for me, since they all did so and often when they were on earth. It's actually a sweet, loving thing to do.

Really, think about it. What's the worst that could happen if you do ask those who died in Christ to pray for you?

We have one example in scripture of someone who did exactly that, and we see the judgment brought against him:

1 Sam 28:15-19
16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the LORD has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines."
NKJV

We have one example in scripture of someone who did exactly that, and we see the judgment brought against him
Oh, tweedle dee dee! I'm not afraid of some old Philistines!

(And that had nothing to do with asking saints in heaven to intercede.)

Oh, tweedle dee dee! I'm not afraid of some old Philistines!

(And that had nothing to do with asking saints in heaven to intercede.)

It had everything to do with asking a saint in heaven. Scripture identifies the issue:

1 Sam 28:15
15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
NKJV

1 Sam 28:16
16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy?
NKJV

You need not fear the Philistines, but Fear Him who warned against calling up the dead. The Philistines did not succed because of their strength, but because of the disobedience against God by Saul.

It had everything to do with asking a saint in heaven. Scripture identifies the issue:

1 Sam 28:15
15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
NKJV

1 Sam 28:16
16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy?
NKJV

You need not fear the Philistines, but Fear Him who warned against calling up the dead. The Philistines did not succed because of their strength, but because of the disobedience against God by Saul.
Tsk, tsk. The Lord hasn't departed from me. And look who was calling Samuel (who is alive in heaven).

Tsk, tsk. The Lord hasn't departed from me. And look who was calling Samuel (who is alive in heaven).

Well, you hope that the Lord has not departed from you. I cannot comment one way or another on your specifics, but clearly God does not take well to people committing what He called an abomination (in Deut) by speaking those who died in the flesh (which includes Samuel)

Well, you hope that the Lord has not departed from you. I cannot comment one way or another on your specifics, but clearly God does not take well to people committing what He called an abomination (in Deut) by speaking those who died in the flesh (which includes Samuel)
He hasn't departed from me. That I know with all my heart.

Wondergirl,
Yes it is a sweet loving thing to do.
Just as Jesus prayed for us while here with us on earth.
I think the saints in heaven are more the willing to pray for the saints on earth for they all are loving beings.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

He hasn't departed from me. That I know with all my heart.

Good - well don't go committing any acts that He calls abominations like speaking to those who are dead in the flesh! :)

I think the saints in heaven are more the willing to pray for the saints on earth for they all are loving beings.


They are in heaven because they love the Lord. Would they want us to commit a sin of trying to communicate with them? I don't think so.

This and Fred's last identical question reminds me of the story in Mark 10. That is one of the reasons I have simply given up on those that refuse to believe what the Word has to say on this subject!

It had everything to do with asking a saint in heaven.

How could that be, since Christ hadn't yet come and conquered death, bringing salvation to the saints? I've never before heard anyone say that he was in heaven when Saul sought to summon him.

And that's the point you seem to be missing. Christ conquered death, promising and--we believe--granting eternal life to his saints. You want to insist that the operative notion is "death in the flesh". But this rather dramatically misses the point of Christ's promise, and gift, of eternal life. In fact, it not only misses the point; it evacuates it of meaning. You are clinging to a pre-Christian way of thinking about death.

Good - well don't go committing any acts that He calls abominations

Are we to infer from your admonition that you do not trim your fore-locks? You are, then, careful not to sit in a chair in which a menstruating woman has sat? These too are abominations according to the Law.

How could that be, since Christ hadn't yet come and conquered death, bringing salvation to the saints?

Interesting. I have never heard anyone in mainstream Christianity suggest that it was impossible to be saved before Jesus came in the flesh.


I've never before heard anyone say that he was in heaven when Saul sought to summon him.

Samuel was saved and was a saint - are you saying that their actual location matters? Are you saying that it would be an abomination to communicate with a sdaint who was not in heaven, but a good thing to talk to a sint in heaven? Exactly where do you get this rather unusual belief?

Are we to infer from your admonition that you do not trim your fore-locks? You are, then, careful not to sit in a chair in which a menstruating woman has sat? These too are abominations according to the Law.

Are we to assume that you are unable to discuyss a issue without mis-representing others? THis was addressed a number of times, but you seem to go back to iut anyttime that you cannot deal with the facts at hand.

Interesting. I have never heard anyone in mainstream Christianity suggest that it was impossible to be saved before Jesus came in the flesh.

So you believe that there is salvation apart from Christ's sacrifice on the cross? Odd. I am genuinely surprised to find you suggesting that Christ's sacrifice and conquest of death is inessential for salvation.


Samuel was saved and was a saint - are you saying that their actual location matters? Are you saying that it would be an abomination to communicate with a sdaint who was not in heaven, but a good thing to talk to a sint in heaven? Exactly where do you get this rather unusual belief?

I have made no claims about this. Again, I am surprised to find you claiming that there is salvation apart from Christ's death and resurrection. Your beliefs appear to be evolving in unexpected ways. It will be interesting to see where this takes you. I hope you'll let us know where you end up.

Are we to assume that you are unable to discuyss a issue without mis-representing others? THis was addressed a number of times, but you seem to go back to iut anyttime that you cannot deal with the facts at hand.

You never answered me about this. You have admonished Wondergirl to refrain from those things said by the Law to be abominations. I am attempting to be charitable by assuming that you are not a hypocrite, and this means that you yourself refrain from those things said by the Law to be abominations. Trimming forelocks and sharing a chair with a menstruating woman are said by the Law to be abominations. Therefore, these must be activities from which you refrain. I was simply seeking your confirmation of that.

Well, you hope that the Lord has not departed from you.

This is way off thread but I will sneak this one in TJ3 because I am curious as to what you think... so do you believe that the Holy Spirit that indwells the believer ( a REAL believer) can depart? Obviously the Holy Spirit CAME ON the old test. Saints... but what about the Christian? And fyi, the story of Saul is the very one I would use for why we are NOT to pray to the deceased. Interesting to me that some can pass it off as a fluke or as not the same thing... but they can't site ONE example where it was done and the Lord approved it.

So you believe that there is salvation apart from Christ's sacrifice on the cross?

I have been very clear about my beliefs in this regard. There is no salvation aside from the cross, and ALL who were saved before or after the cross were saved because of the sacrifice on the cross.

Unlike you, I have never made any statement even suggesting that those before the cross lived before their was salvation.

This is way off thread but I will sneak this one in TJ3 because I am curious as to what you think... so do you believe that the Holy Spirit that indwells the believer ( a REAL believer) can depart? Obviously the Holy Spirit CAME ON the old test. Saints... but what about the Christian?

We find differences between the way that the Holy Spirit deal with believers before the ascension of Christ, and afterward. Before Christ, the Holy Spirit would come upon a believer, but did not indwell believers. In the NT, we find the fulfillment of the OT prophecy when Jesus announced that the Holy Spirit would indwell believers. So, no the Holy Spirit does not depart from believers.


And fyi, the story of Saul is the very one I would use for why we are NOT to pray to the deceased. Interesting to me that some can pass it off as a fluke or as not the same thing... but they can't site ONE example where it was done and the Lord approved it.

Exactly.

Tj3,

Thanks, I thought we were on the same page... and we are.

I have never made any statement even suggesting that those before the cross lived before their was salvation.
Huh? But they did live before there was salvation.

Huh? but they did live before there was salvation.

Can you justify from the Bible, your belief that there was a time before salvation? That is acertainly not an orthodox Christian belief.

Can you justify from the Bible, your belief that there was a time before salvation? That is acertainly not an orthodox Christian belief.
The OT was a time before Christ and salvation.

The OT was a time before Christ and salvation.

There was a time before Christ came manifest in the flesh.

Where in the Bible do we find a time before salvation? Are you saying that everything who died before 30AD went to hell without a hope?

There was a time before Christ came manifest in the flesh.

Where in the Bible do we find a time before salvation? Are you saying that everything who died before 30AD went to hell without a hope?
If they obeyed the Law perfectly they didn't.

If they obeyed the Law perfectly they didn't.

Romans 3:23 says that no one obeyed the law perfectly, so are you saying that they all went to hell without any hope?

Romans 3:23 says that no one obeyed the law perfectly, so are you saying that they all went to hell without any hope?

It was said to the Children of Israel --
Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee. [Deut. 6:17]

And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them: [Deut. 17:19]

But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul. [Josh. 22:5]

Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right hand or to the left; [Josh. 23:6]

And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself: [1 Kings 2:3]

Israel did not consider any of God's laws unreasonable or believe they were impossible to keep. If a person violated a law, there was a sacrifice available within the law to atone for the sin, and thus he was keeping the overall law.

Israel did not consider any of God's laws unreasonable or believe they were impossible to keep. If a person violated a law, there was a sacrifice available within the law to atone for the sin, and thus he was keeping the overall law.

Romans 3:23 is clear. NO ONE EVER kept the law.

Those sacrifices never took away any sin:

Heb 10:3-7
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--
In the volume of the book it is written of Me--
To do Your will, O God.' "
NKJV

They were prophetic of the ONLY sacrifice that could take away sins.

Romans 3:23 is clear. NO ONE EVER kept the law.

Those sacrifices never took away any sin:

Heb 10:3-7
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--
In the volume of the book it is written of Me--
To do Your will, O God.' "
NKJV

They were prophetic of the ONLY sacrifice that could take away sins.
That's all in the NT. What did the OT people believe? They sinned and made sacrifices in good faith.

That's all in the NT. What did the OT people believe? They sinned and made sacrifices in good faith.

So are you saying that the NT is not inspired scripture?

Wow. This is interesting.

So are you saying that the NT is not inspired scripture?

Wow. This is interesting.
The OT people knew nothing of Jesus and His salvation.

The OT people knew nothing of Jesus and His salvation.

Really?

Job 19:25
25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
NKJV

The book of Job is considered one of the oldest books in the Bible.

Really?

Job 19:25
25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
NKJV

The book of Job is considered one of the oldest books in the Bible.
So they all knew this.

So they all knew this.

You said no one knew about it. All I have to show is that it was known by showing one example.

But here is another:

Heb 11:24-27
24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
NKJV

You said no one knew about it. All I have to show is that it was known by showing one example.
But Israelites' salvation was by works, the work of offering up sacrifices for sin.

But Israelites' salvation was by works, the work of offering up sacrifices for sin.

Are you saying that Jesus was wrong and that there are or were two different ways to be saved?

Was the Bible wrong when it said that the sacrices never took away sin?

Heb 10:3-7
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--
In the volume of the book it is written of Me--
To do Your will, O God.' "
NKJV

Are you saying that Jesus was wrong and that there are or were two different ways to be saved?

Was the Bible wrong when it said that the sacrices never took away sin?

Heb 10:3-7
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--
In the volume of the book it is written of Me--
To do Your will, O God.' "
NKJV
In the OT, the Israelites' salvation was by works, the work of offering up sacrifices for sin. People were saved by keeping the law God gave them through Moses. That was the Old Covenant.

In the OT, the Israelites' salvation was by works, the work of offering up sacrifices for sin. People were saved by keeping the law God gave them through Moses. That was the Old Covenant.

You are going around in circles. NO ONE ever kept the law (Romans 3:23).

NO sins were ever washed away by animal sacrifice.

You are going around in circles. NO ONE ever kept the law (Romans 3:23).
Under the Law, each person had to perform the good works of keeping the law to secure his salvation. If he failed and sinned, he had to work by offering the proper sacrifice to atone for his sin. The offender was guilty from the time of the offense until the time the sacrifice was offered, but after the sacrifice, he was forgiven and counted as clean again.

* And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing: And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin. [Lev. 5:5-6]
* And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him. [Lev. 19:21-22]


NO sins were ever washed away by animal sacrifice.
Of course they were. That was the whole point. That was the Old Covenant between God and His people in the OT.

Under the Law, each person had to perform the good works of keeping the law to secure his salvation. If he failed and sinned, he had to work by offering the proper sacrifice to atone for his sin. The offender was guilty from the time of the offense until the time the sacrifice was offered, but after the sacrifice, he was forgiven and counted as clean again.

Yes, but no one kept the law, and the animal sacrifices did not take away sins - it was only prophetic of the one sacrifice which does take away sins.

You can choose to accept what scripture says or reject it.

Yes, but no one kept the law, and the animal sacrifices did not take away sins
Yes, the animal sacrifices took away sins. All those sin offerings done throughout the OT were just a big joke?

Yes, the animal sacrifices took away sins.

Then you say that the Bible is wrong.


All those sin offerings done throughout the OT were just a big joke?

They were, as the Bible says, prophetic of the one sacrifice which does take away sins - that of Christ on the cross.

Then you say that the Bible is wrong.
Wrong about what? OT -- “This animal of mine belongs to God, is graciously given to me by Him, and this sacrifice is, by His mercy, provided for my restoration to Him. This is my public declaration of devotion/reconciliation of my heart to Him.” In the case of the sin offering, this represented the cleansing or covering of sin – “atonement”.

They were, as the Bible says, prophetic of the one sacrifice which does take away sins - that of Christ on the cross.
But Christ was only a promise, a birthright, in the OT. Meanwhile, God gave them sacrifices for sin. Sacrifice was a fundamental regulation instituted by God for the nation of Israel.

On the Day of Atonement, for instance, the faithful Jews would go to the temple where the high priest would enter the Holy of Holies and sacrifice one of the rams on the mercy seat for his sins and the sins of the people. Not only did the animal have to die on behalf the priest and the people for their sins, but the high priest placed his hands on the other ram (i.e. the scapegoat) as a sign of imputing or placing the nation's sins upon the ram. The ram was then taken out into the wilderness to die, signifying the removal of sin from the people for that particular year.

Wrong about what? OT -- “This animal of mine belongs to God, is graciously given to me by Him, and this sacrifice is, by His mercy, provided for my restoration to Him. This is my public declaration of devotion/reconciliation of my heart to Him.” In the case of the sin offering, this represented the cleansing or covering of sin – “atonement”.

Reference would be nice. As for you supposed quote from the NT, I could not find it in the Bible so I did a search and found it top be someone's interpretation ( Old Testament Sacrifices and the Death of Jesus (http://eastoxfordchurchofchrist.org/id11.html) ).

But I did agree that the animal sacrifice represented (or prophetically symbolized) the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

I prefer what scripture actually says to what someone's interpretation of re-wording of what they think it might mean.


But Christ was only a promise, a birthright, in the OT. Meanwhile, God gave them sacrifices for sin. Sacrifice was a fundamental regulation instituted by God for the nation of Israel.

So you feel that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was not effective for those in the OT?

Reference would be nice.
Read the OT. Note the sacrifices made. For what?

So you feel that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was not effective for those in the OT?
It hadn't happened yet. Thus, the people of the OT were part of the Old Covenant.

Read the OT. Note the sacrifices made. For what?

The sacrifices were made for sins, ina prophetic ritual of the coming of Him who could take away the sins. The NT is scripture also:

Heb 10:11-14
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV


It hadn't happened yet. Thus, the people of the OT were part of the Old Covenant.

Have you studied the covenants? The Old Covenant was a prophetic one looking forward to the coming of the Messiah. The New Covenant shows us that fulfillment. Both were about Christ. In the Old Covenant, the ritual sacrifices symbolized that which truly takes away sin, the blood of Christ.

Heb 10:1-4
10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
NKJV

Or do you think that the blood os mere animals is as good as the perfect and Holy blood of Jesus? And if that were true, then clearly Jesus did not have to come and die on the cross.

Wondergirl,
You have made some good thought provoking points,
Thanks,
Fred

Have you studied the covenants?
There you go again with the dissing!

There you go again with the dissing!

Really? By asking a question?

Really? By asking a question?
It drips with sarcasm.

It drips with sarcasm.

Really? That is interesting because it was neither intended, nor is it there if you read the context, but if that is what you wish to believe, I cannot stop you.