There have been many posts about if magic or spells exist or not so I've made a new post explaining it.

Magic is real. It works by raising, directing and releasing energy to obtain a goal. However, there are those who have tried to cast a spell before and it didn't work and they wonder why or they no longer believe in magic. There are several factors that could have not allowed their spell to work. The #1 reason is that because magic is pure energy, it works by "like attracting like". That means that if you cast a spell then start thinking that it might not work, then it won't. Why should it if you don't believe it? That's why more seasoned Witches have an old saying, which is "Set it and forget it". That means after you cast the spell to forget about it.

Anyway, magic does exist and it is all around us. I'm sure all of us at one point or another have been told "You can do anything you put your mind to". In a nut shell, that is the basis of magic, because magic must first begin in the mind and you must focus your mind on that intent before it becomes reality. Some call that "creative visualization". So yes, magic, spells, witchcraft, tarot cards, palm reading, astrology, summoning spirits, astral projection and all that jazz... it's all real. Any questions? :cool:

Hello jammixmaster

Can you provide any scientific support for magic?
I mean any proof that magic has been tested in a scientific way for it's effects and power?

Your #1 reason is that because magic is pure energy : do you have any proof for that?

You stated 'anyway, magic does exist and it is all around us... "You can do anything you put your mind to".'
You mean that is your evidence?

You stated 'Any questions?'.
Yes I have : please support what you preach. Please provide the supporting evidence!

Of course you may believe that this is so, but claiming it to be a fact is incorrect until you proved it!

No problem. I'm glad you asked. I'll start with your first question, of scientific proof. Science has already proven that magic is real because as stated before, magic is pure energy, and science has proven that energy exists (just go read any physics or chemistry book). As for your second question, I would have to delve more into psychology to give you a full answer but I'll try and simplify here. Magic begins in the mind because the mind is the center of all focusing... unless you can prove to me that you can focus on something with your foot then I guess we'll just have to stick with the mind. Science has already proven that you can use your mind to create change, that process of creating that change is called magic. Some people may call it "positive thinking" or whatever, but that's essentially how magic works. That's not to say that if you focus on becoming a billionaire that tomorrow you'd be one. There are other factors that come into play and it's too much to type here. As for proving it, I'm sure you've already proven it to yourself. I don't know your personally so I can't explain exactly how but I can give you some examples. If there has ever been a time in your life that you needed something or just wanted it really bad but had no way of getting it, then a few days later (or any time frame) out of nowhere the means for getting what you wanted or needed came. Science would call this a "coincidence". But we all know that a "coincidence" is just science's way of saying "I don't know how to explain that".

Science has already proven that magic is real because as stated before, magic is pure energy, and science has proven that energy exists (just go read any physics or chemistry book).
You are mixing two things here. Yes science can prove that energy exists, no debate there. No it has not proven that magic is real. Can you post some papers on this subject?

There are not many papers on the subject as most scholars choose just the one side... either magic or science. I did however find this:

Science vs. witchcraft (http://www.biorationalinstitute.com/shownews.php?nid=30)

I'm not sure if its what you're looking for but it's the best I could find. BTW Needkarma, your display pic is awesome, that guy is like the new Billy Mays!

jammixmaster can you do magic? If so how? I'm just curious

"Magic", explained by jammixmaster, is "pure energy". This thought is lost by many, as they try to rationalize it as though it were something tangible, like electricity. To further complicate any attempt to explain "magic", you have the problem provided by science fiction. I've heard the "if magic is real, then show me a green, wart-nosed woman in a black outfit flying around on a broom, or turn me into a toad. See! You can't do it, so it isn't real!" I personally have never flown without mechanical means, nor have I pulled a rabbit from any of the many hat's I own.

Magic is whatever you can convince your mind that it can be, so long as you understand that it's much more fantastic in your imagination, and normally quite boring in reality.

Most of what I've seen considered "magic", didn't really have anything "magical" about it. Our desire to mix emotion and belief into what we cannot explain intellectually, and the desire to be something more than what we appear to be, tends to throw things like "magic" out of proportion.

If you mix a base with an acid, a reaction occurs. For someone who has never experienced this before and doesn't understand the science behind the reaction, IT'S MAGIC! But, it's our imagination that makes it so, and our desire to believe in something fantastic. In reality, it's boring old predictable science. Many "spells" are found to be similar to this.

However, you still have the "pure energy" side of the "spell", such as the incantation, meditation, séance, astral-projection, etc. that is quite often chocked up to total BS by those without the desire to believe. These same people, more often than not, are the same that believe in the "power of prayer", yet do not make the connection between prayer and "energy projection". As far as I can tell, and this is my opinion, there is not much difference. You are projecting your personal energy, whether it be emotional or physical, whether you believe it is received by an omnipotent being and sent back down, or if there is no "middle man" in the process and you are in control, you are still doing it. How exactly the process works, is left up to the individual and their mind's eye, as there isn't a all-fitting practical explanation that I know of.

I find it easier to compare to that which is a fantastic piece of science fiction: Star Wars, and the "Force". It's a cooperation between you and your surroundings though a transference of energy. Can you reach out and make your light saber come to you? Well, there is a lot of science behind telekinesis, and it's the ability to affect matter with your mind, right? Moving salt shakers across the table, bending spoons... Sure, why not a light saber, lol. But the concept wasn't invented by the movies. Many of the Native American beliefs that I have read about, shared the belief that there was a "web" that connected all things. That everything from the soil to the sky was an inter-weaved, cooperative being. We get to participate in this form for a while, but will be returned to the earth to propagate another life. Does Disney's "the Lion King" song "the Circle of Life" ring a bell?

Now after you remove the science fiction from "the Force" and remember what you learned in middle-school science class, EVERYTHING ON EARTH is made of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Everything, even the rocks at the bottom of the river, the tree in your yard, the air you breath, and yes, even you, is composed of basically the same stuff. What defines the rock from the tree, is the composition and order in which these things are arranged. Granted, I'm no scientist or professor, and my comparisons probably suck, but you get the idea, I hope.

But here I am, coming full circle, and beginning to try to explain how "magic" and "pure energy", is, in a way, electricity. Without electricity, our synapses don't fire, our thoughts don't form, our heart doesn't beat. We might as well be a rock or a tree. It's the attraction and repulsion, the cooperation of the electrons and protons of the elements that make up the forms we keep. This electricity, this "pure energy" or "magic", is in us all. How you rationalize what it is, and what you can or cannot do with it, is reliant solely upon your desire to accept the form or fashion in which it exists. How this is projected, I do not pretend to understand, but I can believe that we possess the ability to do so, whether in the form of prayer, as a spell, or in any other flavor you choose. We know there's something to it, though we can't reach out and touch it, and we all long for an explanation that we can understand, but it's just out of reach.

Ok, I'm burned out, it's been a long day, hopefully someone can help make sense of what I think I was trying to say with all this, and that maybe some part of what I have said here can be helpful to the discussion. I hope.

.... scientific proof. Science has already proven that magic is real because as stated before, magic is pure energy, and science has proven that energy exists (just go read any physics or chemistry book).
Yes, science proved that energy exists. But you still have to prove that magic is pure energy.


.... Magic begins in the mind because the mind is the center of all focusing.......unless you can prove to me that you can focus on something with your foot then I guess we'll just have to stick with the mind. Science has already proven that you can use your mind to create change, that process of creating that change is called magic.Sure, magic can begin in the mind. But there are limits. You stated "You can do anything you put your mind to". But that is not true. There are limits. You can imagine many things in your mind, but that does not ensure that whatever you imagine is real or can be done. So prove that you can literally do anything you put your mind to, or accept that this is no support for your magic claim.


.... There are other factors that come into play and it's too much to type here.How conveniant. But I have all the time, so go ahead : post these factors, of course supported by valid evidence.



.... As for proving it, i'm sure you've already proven it to yourself. I don't know your personally so I can't explain exactly how but I can give you some examples. If there has ever been a time in your life that you needed something or just wanted it really bad but had no way of getting it, then a few days later (or any time frame) out of nowhere the means for getting what you wanted or needed came. Science would call this a "coincidence".Science would call this a non-answer. Of course there is coincidence. But that has nothing to do with 'real magic', and nothing with 'You can do anything you put your mind to'. Please keep to the subject and the point I made. Prove that 'You can do anything you put your mind to'. Or accept that there is no support for this claim.

Note : you have not in any way supported so far your claim that magic is real.
You introduced a lot of 'red herrings' in response to my previous post, but I like to keep focused in your own topic on your own question 'Is magic real?' and your own statement "Magic is real". I asked you to support that statement. But I am still waiting.

Again : of course you may believe that magic is real, but claiming it as fact is incorrect until you have proved it!

I've heard the "if magic is real, then show me a green, wart-nosed woman in a black outfit flying around on a broom, or turn me into a toad. You may have heard that, but in this topic all that was asked was to provide valid support for the claim "magic is real". So far I am still waiting.

Magic is real if you think it is. For example you never heard of eletricty and one day david blaine came up fliped a swicth and a light came on then you would belife it was magic

So far I am still waiting.

Yeah, well, I am also still waiting for proof that there is a god. Does my disbelief in a vengeful, omnipotent, omnipresent entity have anything to do with whether one exists? No. That is why I made the comparison to prayer and incantation. Though through belief, neither has anything to do with the other, yet they are both the same in my opinion.

But, you are right sarnian, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. So magic does not exist because I can't make your keyboard fly off your desk while you type, unless I was there with you to yank on the cord. But that's OK with me.

As someone who has spent a great deal of time in the company of practicing Wiccans (and other various paganistic beliefs that "use magic"), I had learned to keep my mouth shut and my eyes open, and not make it too obvious that I've got my tongue in my cheek and often trying not to smile, or worse, laugh. This is as serious to those who believe in magic as prayer is to a Christian.

I can make water burn, hell I can make water expload VIOLENTLY. It's not magic to me, it's provable, tangible, boring old science. But to watch the eyes of those who witness me do it, even after explaining what the reaction was, you could see that it was still magic to them. It was extraordinary.

The argument against magic is like the argument against religion. Until the omnipotent one comes home, or someone turns you into a toad, we are left only to believe what we choose. It's the inability to positively disprove the actual existence of either, that keeps it believable to the individual.

Am I making any sense?

I guess it kind of makes more sense now, but how do you do it?

And even if I could do magic I think I would still believe in god.

Don't wiccans believe in god(s)?

.....it's all real. Any questions? :cool:Hello j:

I cannot imagine living in a world where a goblin is waiting around the corner to pounce, or where Satan is ALWAYS trying to make you do stuff, or where a white haired guy in the sky is telling you not to listen, or where your car might disappear because a magician made it so...

Nope, I cannot imagine it. It would actually be quite scary knowing that you don't have control over your life. How do you folks get through the day?

excon

i guess it kind of makes more sense now, but how do you do it?

and even if i could do magic i think i would still believe in god.

don't wiccans believe in god(s)?

I was using faith in god as an example of belief in something that can not be physically disproven, and yes wiccans believe in god/gods/goddesses. As far as "how do you do it", as far as I can tell, it is up to the individual as what you feel that works for you may not work for others. The imigination plays a big role here. Mental visualization of things that cannot be seen with the eyes. It is the projection of thought, energy, whatever you want to call it. I don't know for sure if you can bend a spoon or move something with your mind, or even if you can have any actual effect on your surroundings, but that's not to say that you can't believe that you can.

Much of what I can agree with is more of the ability to effect yourself. I believe we are more than we seem. From the thought that we only use a small portion of our brain, what our mind does when we are asleep, and what we are capable of if we focus ourselves.

So it's like having telekineses?

I think I may be able to provide an example of sorts to help explain the idea I am trying to get across...

There was a young lady that had cut herself in the kitchen while cutting up herbs. It wasn't a really bad cut, but there was blood, and she was in pain. Her aunt, and self-professed "witch", began a "spell" to stop the pain and help with healing. It involved moving her hands around in a certain way over the injury, and saying some choice incantation, and the young lady said that the pain was going away and that it didn't hurt anymore, and it was accredited to the "spell".

Was it in fact magic that stopped the pain? Or was it simply that the young lady believed that the "spell" was having an effect, and thus made her body ignore, or at least lessen the acknowledgment of the pain.

By the time all of this had transpired, the blood at the injury had clotted (like it's supposed to) and the bleeding had stopped. Not magic by any means, it's our natural biology doing what it does, but it happened to take place at the right time.

What made it magic may have been nothing more than psychology, and the ability for the young lady to manage her own pain, through the suggestion that the "spell" would work.

magic is real if you think it is.
I already mentioned that. That approach is called BELIEF.

... So magic does not exist because I can't make your keyboard fly off your desk while you type, unless I was there with you to yank on the cord. But that's ok with me.
No, that is incorrect : I never stated that as supposed evidence. You did.
I simply asked : please provide evidence for the claim 'magic is real'.
Still I have not seen any evidence for that.


... I can make water burn, hell I can make water expload VIOLENTLY.
Empty words, just wild claims. Please provide EVIDENCE that you can do that.


... The argument against magic is like the argument against religion.
I have no argument against magic, nor against religion. I have an argument against people making wild claims which they can not back-up with evidence.


... Am I making any sense?
No.

Where does the energy that you use to do magic come from. It can't just come out of nowhere. That's the part I don't get.

jammixmaster can you do magic? if so how? im just curious

Of course I can do magic! I'm a Wiccan Priest. Now if you're talking about turning people into frogs or levitating then I suggest you stick with Charmed or Buffy The Vampire Slayer, they are the only Witches that can WOW you with TV magic. As for the "how" of my magic, as stated in previous posts its too hard to explain here. I suggest you buy a book on the subject or download one from a torrent.

Yes, science proved that energy exists. But you still have to prove that magic is pure energy.

Sure, magic can begin in the mind. But there are limits. You stated "You can do anything you put your mind to". But that is not true. There are limits. You can imagine many things in your mind, but that does not ensure that whatever you imagine is real or can be done. So prove that you can literally do anything you put your mind to, or accept that this is no support for your magic claim.

How conveniant. But I have all the time, so go ahead : post these factors, of course supported by valid evidence.


Science would call this a non-answer. Of course there is coincidence. But that has nothing to do with 'real magic', and nothing with 'You can do anything you put your mind to'. Please keep to the subject and the point I made. Prove that 'You can do anything you put your mind to'. Or accept that there is no support for this claim.

Note : you have not in any way supported so far your claim that magic is real.
You introduced a lot of 'red herrings' in response to my previous post, but I like to keep focussed in your own topic on your own question 'Is magic real?' and your own statement "Magic is real". I asked you to support that statement. But I am still waiting.

Again : of course you may believe that magic is real, but claiming it as fact is incorrect until you have proved it!


I'm guessing the proof you're looking for does not lie in words, but in visuals. In that case you would have to meet me or meet someone who actively practices magic. No matter how long of a post I write trying to convince you, you won't believe anyway. So I suggest you try it yourself (the best suggestion) or find someone who practices magic. But like I said, trying it yourself would be your best bet, so you can see it with your own eyes using your own mind and will to do it.

Yeah, well, I am also still waiting for proof that there is a god. Does my disbelief in a vengeful, omnipotent, omnipresent entity have anything to do with whether or not one exists? No. That is why I made the comparison to prayer and incantation. Though through belief, neither has anything to do with the other, yet they are both the same in my opinion.

But, you are right sarnian, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. So magic does not exist because I can't make your keyboard fly off your desk while you type, unless I was there with you to yank on the cord. But that's ok with me.

As someone who has spent a great deal of time in the company of practicing Wiccans (and other various paganistic beliefs that "use magic"), I had learned to keep my mouth shut and my eyes open, and not make it too obvious that I've got my tounge in my cheek and often trying not to smile, or worse, laugh. This is as serious to those who believe in magic as prayer is to a Christian.

I can make water burn, hell I can make water expload VIOLENTLY. It's not magic to me, it's provable, tangible, boring old science. But to watch the eyes of those who witness me do it, even after explaining what the reaction was, you could see that it was still magic to them. It was extraordinary.

The argument against magic is like the argument against religion. Until the omnipotent one comes home, or someone turns you into a toad, we are left only to believe what we choose. It's the inability to positively disprove the actual existence of either, that keeps it believable to the individual.

Am I making any sense?


I have to agree and disagree with you. The kind of magic that turns people into toads is TV magic, and you can thank shows like "Charmed" and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" for that. That sort of magic does not exist, if it did we'd all be practicing magic. I mean, if we could just cast a spell to get rich I think there would be a lot more than 1000 or so billionaires in the world.

As for the belief of God, true, we cannot prove that one. People believe by faith that a God exists, so we just have to wait until one comes or we die to find out. But obviously words cannot make any of you believe in magic so why not practice it yourselves? And don't give some lame excuse like "I don't have time" or "Why would I waste my time with something as stupid as magic?". Just do it and see for yourself. I could sit here and write the world's greatest book on magic and still most of you would not believe. So, go out and buy a book or download one and try it for yourself. If my words aren't enough proof, then get it yourself.

i guess it kind of makes more sense now, but how do you do it?

and even if i could do magic i think i would still believe in god.

don't wiccans believe in god(s)?

Yes we Wiccans believe in a God, but we also believe in a Goddess and we give Her more reverence than we do to our God... but that in no way means that God is not important. But yes, we are a polytheistic people (in reality we're duo-theistic but it's extremely hard to explain how) and we believe in a Goddess and a God. I hope that helps.


*BTW: You don't have to believe in God to practice magic, you can simply practice magic as a folk art without using any Deity names*

I'm guessing the proof you're looking for does not lie in words, but in visuals.
Not really. I asked evidence for the topic claim that magic is real. To me it is unimportant if that is done with words or visuals. As long as valid evidence is provided, not claims, hearsay, or personal opinions.


In that case you would have to meet me or meet someone who actively practices magic.
Once more : not really. There is no need for someone who practices magic. All I ask is valid evidence for magic being real.


No matter how long of a post I write trying to convince you, you wont believe anyway.
You do not have to convince me, and I do not have to believe anything. All I ask is to provide valid evidence for magic being real.


So I suggest you try it yourself (the best suggestion) or find someone who practices magic.
That seems to confirm to me that you have no valid evidence that magic is real. Why can't you simply admit that?
As stated before, I have no problem people believing that magic is real.

===


As for the belief of God, true, we cannot prove that one.
I note that you can neither prove that magic is real. So my conclusion can only be that - just like theists believe in God(s) - you just believe that magic is real.

Magic is real,but not in the way people think, it is not the suden glow yousee in a magicians hands, or a floating object controlled by his mind. It all has to do with slight of hand and the right equipment. Like you see on TV where somebody is floating that is the "magic" or camera first the magician will levitate on his toes (go on his tip-toes on an angle to make it look like he/she is floating) then they add a hoist to the magician and film the hoist lifting him several feet above the ground.. add in some pre recorded reacions and boom you have your levitation. As the floating objects, the "magic" in invisible thread. Everything has an explination, me being a magician myself knows the only magic is the slight of hand and seeing your fans smile as they dream about this unrealistic entertainment

Ok Sarnian, lets go with what you said. If magic isn't real, then why do people continue to practice something that brings no results? That's like trying to write with a pen that has no ink. You know the pen is empty yet you keep trying to write with it. What's the point? The same goes for our discussion on the existence of magic. If every time for the past 9 years that I've been practicing magic, if 100% of my spells didn't work then why the F would I continue to follow the Wiccan faith? Makes no sense. Magic is real, whether you believe it or not. And I already said that I have proved to you with words that magic exists, you just choose not to accept it. Because of that I told you to try it for yourself. If you're not willing to try it for yourself you just don't want to accept the fact that maybe... just MAYBE you may prove to yourself that magic is real. You keep asking for proof... prove it to yourself I can't cast a spell over a message board... so therefore you would need to do it for yourself. I don't know how many times you've said that I can't prove it. I'm trying to prove it, by telling you to do it yourself. You say I'm afraid to admit that it's not real... yet I think it's you who is afraid... afraid to try it for yourself. You're a man of science right? Well then, conduct and experiment for yourself.

What drew you into doing magic? Did you already know how?

Hello str33t punk

... it all has to do with slight of hand and the right equipment...
Sorry, but in this Wiccan topic MAGIC means supernatural. What you refer to is the work of a magician.

Ok Sarnian, lets go with what you said.
But you do not go with what I said. I asked for valid evidence for the claim that magic is real.


If magic isn't real, then why do people continue to practice something that brings no results?
Because they believe magic is real. Just like people who believe in God(s) believe in the power of their belief.


Magic is real, whether you believe it or not.
You can say that as many times as you like, but lacking any valid evidence for that, you clearly can not support your claim that magic is real.


...yet I think it's you who is afraid...
What a strange conclusion. All I ask you (and others) is to provide valid support for your claim that magic is real. Apparently you can't do that, and involve yourself in all kinds of red herrings instead of admitting that you believe that magic is real.


You're a man of science right? Well then, conduct and experiment for yourself.
Yes I am well-versed in science. But I do not claim anything. All I do is ask for valid support for claims made by others. I do not have to conduct and experiment myself. I do not have to prove my views. You and your friends claim, so you have to provide valid support for what you claim to be real.

Every next entry here in which you post red herrings and/or try to let me involve myself in research in your belief in magic proves only one thing : you have no valid support for your wild claims !

Ok Sarnian, lets go with what you said. If magic isn't real, then why do people continue to practice something that brings no results?Hello j:

Because it DOES bring the desired result.

I do magic tricks. People LOVE them. That's the result I'm looking for. I LOVE to entertain my friends. Plus, when I see magic performed, I LOVE it. Not because I think it's real, but because I got tricked.

None of it is real - none of it.

excon

No, that is incorrect : I never stated that as supposed evidence. You did.
I simply asked : please provide evidence for the claim 'magic is real'.
Still I have not seen any evidence for that.

That was meant as a practical example, not intended to sound like I was quoting you, sorry.



Empty words, just wild claims. Please provide EVIDENCE that you can do that.

Really, you haven't heard how to make water burn? You know what water is composed of, right? Hydrogen and Oxygen? I disassociate the water molecule with electrolysis, leaving me with a gaseous mix of 2H and 2O, called "hydroxy" by some, and it is wonderfully explosive. But, nobody wants to hear about the science behind it, they want to see the magic show of water burning.



No.

Well, at least you aren't afraid to tell me that I don't make any sense, that does put you in the top 90% of people that also don't think I make any sense, and that's OK, because I seldom make sense. But I try!

But you do not go with what I said. I asked for valid evidence for the claim that magic is real.


Because they believe magic is real. Just like people who believe in God(s) believe in the power of their belief.


You can say that as many times as you like, but lacking any valid evidence for that, you clearly can not support your claim that magic is real.


What a strange conclusion. All I ask you (and others) is to provide valid support for your claim that magic is real. Apparently you can't do that, and involve yourself in all kinds of red herrings instead of admitting that you believe that magic is real.


Yes I am well-versed in science. But I do not claim anything. All I do is ask for valid support for claims made by others. I do not have to conduct and experiment myself. I do not have to prove my views. You and your friends claim, so you have to provide valid support for what you claim to be real.

Every next entry here in which you post red herrings and/or try to let me involve myself in research in your belief in magic proves only one thing : you have no valid support for your wild claims !



You're just taking yourself in a big circle here. You keep saying to prove it. There is no way to prove it with words. If there was, it would have already been proven. Just because something is written in a science book does not make it fact. I seem to remember that in the old days, books used to say the world was flat... this was before anyone decided to TRY IT THEMSELVES and actually find out. When they did, they found the world was round. So, instead of repeating yourself post after post after post saying "prove it" why don't you prove it yourself? You say you don't have to conduct an experiment? Why not? Are you afraid you'll see the truth? If you don't have to prove it to yourself then I, nor any other Wiccan has to prove it to you on our end. Do it for yourself and stop looking to others to do it for you. You want proof? Go out and get it yourself. Also, you stated that I am afraid to admit my belief in magic:

"Apparently you can't do that, and involve yourself in all kinds of red herrings instead of admitting that you believe that magic is real."

I have no problem with admitting I believe in magic. If I didn't, I wouldn't keep defending my belief. You say you want valid proof.......fine, let's use science as an example. We all know that if you put a mentos candy into a coke bottle after a few seconds it will erupt. But let's say that no one ever tried it, but it was just written all over the internet. Just because it's written does not mean anything. Someone could post exactly how it happens, backed with the scientific reasoning and all......but that still does not make it real. However, if you were to actually try it for yourself, and see if putting a mentos into a coke bottle would make it erupt is true......then it becomes real. You would see it for yourself, and then you would believe. So, quit asking for me to show you when it is impossible to show you how to do magic on a message board. You would have to do it for yourself or find someone in your area to show it to you. If you can't do that then every post you make after this is just going to have your circular reasoning and you're be redundant in saying "proof proof proof".

jammixmaster said: "I have no problem with admitting I believe in magic. If I didn't, I wouldn't keep defending my belief."

Any questions?

The trouble with everything people disagree on is that we express it in words. Words are an imperfect method of describing reality, just try translating something. Logic is useful but not the only reality there is. Logic is a tool, a way of thinking, or expressing oneself, with words. Scientific study is useful... But the scientist affects and therefore changes the experiment by observing it.

Perhaps a better question is, does this view fit with the reality you are currently experiencing? Even when you disprove my reality, I must make the choice to believe that the "world is round." Until I change my view all the proof offered is just words, your words, not what is real to me.

Yes, magic is real to me. And do your own proving to yourself whether it is or not. Don't ask me to BS you with words and studies. BS yourself.

jammixmaster said: "I have no problem with admitting I believe in magic. If I didn't, I wouldn't keep defending my belief."

Any questions?

The trouble with everything people disagree on is that we express it in words. Words are an imperfect method of describing reality, just try translating something. Logic is useful but not the only reality there is. Logic is a tool, a way of thinking, or expressing oneself, with words. Scientific study is useful...But the scientist affects and therefore changes the experiment by observing it.

Perhaps a better question is, does this view fit with the reality you are currently experiencing? Even when you disprove my reality, I must make the choice to believe that the "world is round." Until I change my view all the proof offered is just words, your words, not what is real to me.

Yes, magic is real to me. And do your own proving to yourself whether it is or not. Don't ask me to BS you with words and studies. BS yourself.


Thank you... I think

Oh okay.. just thought I would put in my 2 cents lol

Hello str33t punk

Many people here believe that magic is real (no problem), but they also claim magic is real, and post that repeatedly. However when asked for they can not support that claim in any way. So better keep your 2 cents : that's worth more than most of the statements here...

Hello str33t punk

Many people here believe that magic is real (no problem), but they also claim magic is real, and post that repeatedly. However when asked for they can not support that claim in any way. So better keep your 2 cents : that's worth more than most of the statements here ...

... or maybe you should try doing it yourself rather than keep asking others to show you.

Well there are 2 meanings to that, magic tricks and magic. I don't believe in magic but it is impossible to know if its real.

[QUOTE=sarnian
Many people here believe that magic is real (no problem), but they also claim magic is real, and post that repeatedly. However when asked for they can not support that claim in any way. So better keep your 2 cents : that's worth more than most of the statements here ...[/QUOTE]


And, that would be sarnian's two cents.

And, that would be sarnian's two cents.
Indeed. And that is worth more than most of the statements here, including yours !
Of course anyone may believe that magic is real. But if one states that magic is real, one has to be able to prove that, if asked. So far I asked several times, but nobody could provide the proof !

Indeed. And that is worth more than most of the statements here, including yours !
Of course anyone may believe that magic is real. But if one states that magic is real, one has to be able to prove that, if asked. So far I asked several times, but nobody could provide the proof !

What I don't understand is why you just won't prove it to yourself? Why do you keep asking someone else to do it when you are perfectly capable of doing it yourself?

jammixmaster

I do not claim anything : you do that!!
It is you who claims that magic is real.
All I asked you was to support your claim with proof.
Why should I have to prove anything?
You claim, but you seem incapable to prove it.
Don't ask me to prove anything.

jammixmaster

I do not claim anything : you do that !!!
It is you who claims that magic is real.
All I asked you was to support your claim with proof.
Why should I have to prove anything?
You claim, but you seem incapable to prove it.
Don't ask me to prove anything.

All right, first of all, I NEVER said you claimed anything. If I did, show me. Second, I keep telling you time and time again, YOU CANNOT PROVE MAGIC OVER THE INTERNET WITH WORDS. If you're too feeble minded to understand that then there is no hope for you. Unless I video tape myself performing a spell and send it to you there is NO WAY TO PROVE IT OVER THE INTERNET like you keep asking. So, in order for me to prove it to you you have to prove it to yourself. You said "Don't ask me to prove anything", all right fine... then the same goes for you. It's got to be a two way street. So, if you won't prove it to yourself then you'll never get the proof you want. So go ahead, keep asking for proof, you'll just never get it.

Jammixmaster


Second, I keep telling you time and time again, YOU CANNOT PROVE MAGIC
You may believe in it, but just as religion you can not prove it is real.
Logically, as that is the essence of believing in something : acceptance without proof.
You stated that magic is real. You must believe that , as you can not prove that.


You said "Don't ask me to prove anything", all right fine... then the same goes for you. It's got to be a two way street.
Not at all : I do not claim anything. I ask for your proof that magic is real.
Do not suggest that I claim the opposite of what you claim.


So go ahead, keep asking for proof, you'll just never get it.
I will. And if I never get that, it is because all you do is believe you are correct that magic is real...

So basically all I'm getting from you is that rather than using that "scientific" brain of yours to prove it to yourself, you're going to keep running in circles by asking others to prove it to you? Hmmm... Einstein would be proud.

Jam,
Can you gives the steps required to reproduce magic on our end? That's how Einstein would do it.

"Einstein would be proud" was sarcasm. But yes, I can tell you the steps I use to do magic. I'll explain the steps I use to cast a spell rather than perform a ritual, as spells are a lot easier to do and are less time consuming.

First I ground and center myself, one must have a focused mind when casting a spell. Next, I gather any necessary materials needed for the spell, such as candles, incense, herbs, etc. Then I would cast a circle and evoke the elements (if necessary) then evoke the Goddess and/or God (also if necessary). After that, I would proceed with the magical working (the spell).

*The actual steps for casting the spell would vary depending on the spell being cast. For example, a love spell would not have the same steps as a prosperity spell.*

Once the spell has been cast I would then thank the Goddess and/or God for being present as well as the elements and one by one I would give them the license to depart. Then I would take down (or "un-cast") the circle and ground and center again. Those are the basic steps that I would take to cast a spell. *NOTE: The actual methods vary from Wiccan to Wiccan. So the way I cast my spells may be 100% different from the Wiccan down the street*

Ok I'll try that and report back if I made magic.

Um... what exactly would you try? I didn't give you the steps for the spell that I would cast. I gave you the outline of casting a spell but not an actual spell to cast... so what exactly would you try? I said:

*The actual steps for casting the spell would vary depending on the spell being cast. For example, a love spell would not have the same steps as a prosperity spell.*

That indicated that I didn't give an ACTUAL spell, just the outline. But if you do manage to construct an actual spell, good luck evoking the elements or the Goddess and God. You don't believe in magic so why should it work for you? It's kind of like a Christian praying to Buddha. Christians don't believe in Buddha so why should he answer their prayers. If you were to truly try to use the shell I gave you NeedKarma, you would be mocking the Wiccan faith... not cool.

Ok, can you give the steps for a spell I can try at home?

Ok, can you give the steps for a spell I can try at home?

There are plenty of websites with spells on them to try at home. But like I said, you're a non-believer in either magic as a religion or a folk art. So chances are, if you cast a spell, it won't work for you. Magic works by "like attracting like". So if you don't believe in magic then why should it work? But if you truly want to cast a spell just Google the kind of spell you want and thousands of web matches should come up. I'd say wait at least 30 days (the average life span of a spell with the exception of the 7 Day Money Spell) before you decide if its worked or not.

Hi
I think that magic exist but what you are talking about is not magic it's scientific facts inventing electricity just means that some one discovered something
Also some people have special powers like the ability to Move salt shakers across the table using their eyes for example
But if you watch what david Copperfield does that is the real magic but he do it by interacting with some creatures that we called as jennies and they are own special power
I think that you should think again about what magic means I believe that it does exist but not in the same way that you are talking about

But like I said, you're a non-believer in either magic as a religion or a folk art. So chances are, if you cast a spell, it wont work for you. Magic works by "like attracting like". So if you don't believe in magic then why should it work? If it's real then why do I need to believe in it? Are there any good websites with spells that you can recommend?

I don't know of any websites myself, as I either create my own spells or get them from books from established and recognizable Wiccan and Pagan authors. But I did a Google search and found this website

Spells and Magic. spells, hexes, occult knowledge, black and white magic. (http://www.spellsandmagic.com)

And to answer your question about not believing but it still working... that's not how it works. Magic isn't physical, like a car or a boat. If your car is in running condition, whether you believe it or not, the car will run. Magic doesn't work like that. As stated before to Sarnian, it would take too long to explain exactly how it works on here. The only example I can give is this: Its like when you go to a club and they have a VIP room. Only VIPs (rich people, the club owners friends, celebrities or just well known people) are allowed up there. If you're not a VIP you can't get into the room. Why do you have to be a VIP? I don't know, that's just how the social system works. So apply that to our conversation. Why do you need to believe in magic for it to work? I don't know, that's just how the system works.

... it would take too long to explain exactly how it works on here. The only example I can give is this: Its like when you go to a club and they have a VIP room. Only VIPs (rich people, the club owners friends, celebrities or just well known people) are allowed up there. If you're not a VIP you can't get into the room. Why do you have to be a VIP? I don't know, that's just how the social system works. So apply that to our conversation. Why do you need to believe in magic for it to work? I don't know, thats just how the system works.
A perfect display of total lack of support for a claimed and wild statement...

A perfect display of total lack of support for a claimed wild statement... Yjere is perfect support! As per the link he posted:



Many of you ask ... well how long will it take to work? That is up to the Universe as to when it will manifest. It could be a couple days or it could take weeks or a couple months. There have been many times I have done spells an had no quick results and then POOF! Two months later it happens!

A perfect display of total lack of support for a claimed wild statement ...

... just like your total lack of intelligence to TRY IT ON YOUR OWN.:D

Yjere is perfect support! As per the link he posted:

So what exactly are you saying?

Um...
Magic isn't real. Ur an idiot, looking for attention. Look somewhere else. The internet has enough crap on it already.

.......just like your total lack of intelligence to TRY IT ON YOUR OWN.
There is nothing wrong with my intellect. But there is everything wrong in your argumentation and the support of your invalid statements.

so what exactly are you saying?
And you post to other people texts like "... just like your total lack of intelligence"

:D

Indeed. And that is worth more than most of the statements here, including yours !
Of course anyone may believe that magic is real. But if one states that magic is real, one has to be able to prove that, if asked. So far I asked several times, but nobody could provide the proof !

The debate that is occurring is apples versus oranges.

Science is based on logic. Credibility is contingent on written words of proof. This is left-brained stuff, it's like math, lists. Procedures. Got that? Great.

Magic is a right-brained activity. Thinking in images, visualization of the desired outcome, is very difficult to document. Magical journals tell the story however. Recording what a spell was for, when it was done, can be used to record the results, or lack of them as well.

Your attacks sarnian, lead me to believe that the female, right-brained psyche frightens you. But then, I have no proof.

There is nothing wrong with my intellect. But there is everything wrong in your argumentation and the support of your invalid statements.

Yet you keep refusing to accept that magic can't be done over the internet and do do it for yourself. You want magic to be like it is on TV. You want me to say some cute nursery rhymes and expect to be a billionaire tomorrow or to fall in love with some super model. Well, you can keep watching TV because that's not how real magic works. You keep asking for proof and yet you won't understand that it CAN'T BE DONE OVER THE INTERNET. Once you accept that then maybe you should do a little reading and try some magic for yourself. After all, they say that the best experiences are your own.

Um...
Magic isn't real. Ur an idiot, looking for attention. Look somewhere else. The internet has enough crap on it already.

HA! I'm looking for attention? This is coming from the person who randomly adds their two cents on a conversation that had nothing to do with them at all... yet I'm the one who needs attention. What I don't understand is if you don't believe in magic then you shouldn't have posted anything.

The debate that is occurring is apples versus oranges.

Science is based on logic. Credibility is contingent on written words of proof. This is left-brained stuff, it's like math, lists. procedures. Got that? Great.

Magic is a right-brained activity. Thinking in images, visualization of the desired outcome, is very difficult to document. Magical journals tell the story however. Recording what a spell was for, when it was done, can be used to record the results, or lack of them as well.

Your attacks sarnian, lead me to believe that the female, right-brained psyche frightens you. But then, I have no proof.

Thank you. But no matter what any of us say, Sarnian won't accept it. He seems to think that magic can be proven over the internet. Even if magic did work like it did on TV (like on Charmed or Buffy) and I casted one right now, how would Sarnian know? So still, he wouldn't get his proof. But as "scientific" as his mind is he doesn't understand that. Oh well.

Hmmm, with out reading anything, I'm going to say, that all depends on what you considre magic, magik, to be?

What you are saying about magic being a casting of a spell, the "like attracting like", is no different from, Preying to GOD/S, Meditation, Self-affrimation, and even the scientifically tested (evidence does suggest that the imagination can effect reality, but it's under investigation.) idea that our very imagination can have direct effect on the body and possibly the environment, though we are not moving at all.

In my understanding, "all are one, and one is all." - Led-Zeppelin Stairway to heaven.
These ideas are the same thing, just different words. "...A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet."- Juliet in the Tragity Rommeo + Juliet.

So, whether you call it, divine intervention, slef affirmation, self discovery, magic/ magik, or The power of imagination, it all does the same thing in the end. Brings us closer to our desired goals and intentions, it all does.

Peace and kindness to all.

Haha, scientific Proof? Can any one in fact prove that I have billions of organismes in my body?

Can any one show me that we are going around the sun? Yes I mean via the internet. And no not by referring me to some usuless journal, or posted theories. I want cold hard evidence in my hand. It's not possible to do is it? You'd have to take me to outer space and show me. Other wise you would have to teach me some hugely long mathamatical calutaion system.

Science is still only subjective, in that it's only true in the moment you test it. Things change.

Can any one show me that we are going around the sun? Yes i mean via the internet.The Center (http://gathman.org/apologos/center.html)
Also
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=15528

Hmmm, with out reading anything, i'm going to say, that all depends on what you considre magic, magik, to be??

What you are saying about magic being a casting of a spell, the "like attracting like", is no different from, Preying to GOD/S, Meditation, Self-affrimation, and even the scientifically tested (evidence does suggest that the imagination can effect reality, but it's under investigation.) idea that our very imagination can have direct effect on the body and possibly the enviroment, though we are not moving at all.

In my understanding, "all are one, and one is all." - Led-Zeppelin Stairway to heaven.
These ideas are the same thing, just differnt words. "...A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet."- Juliet in the Tragity Rommeo + Juliet.

So, wether you call it, divine intervention, slef affirmation, self discovery, magic/ magik, or The power of imagination, it all does the same thing in the end. Brings us closer to our desired goals and intentions, it all does.

Peace and kindness to all.


This is exactly what I'm saying. But don't say it too loud in front of scientific people ( I won't say names) they'll just keep asking for PROOF PROOF PROOF. They want you to show them over the internet.

This is exactly what I'm saying. But don't say it too loud in front of scientific people ( I won't say names) they'll just keep asking for PROOF PROOF PROOF. They want you to show them over the internet.
I guess you don't believe in gravity then.

I do believe in gravity, but if I didn't believe in it and I wanted it to be proven, I'd go and see for myself... unlike Sarnian who keeps asking for others to do it for him which just displays his laziness. I know gravity exists, I throw something up in the air, it comes back down. Gravity... wait... did I just conduct an experiment... ON MY OWN!! Omg omg omg, don't tell Sarnian... I should have asked you to do it for me.

I don't think he/she is being lazy. sarnian just wants scientific proof. It just makes more sense when things are proven with scientific facts. Even if you see it for yourself. Also we don't know how to conduct an experiment using magic so how are we going to know? I'm not saying that I don't believe you. I just want to know what you do exactly when you do magic.

The Center (http://gathman.org/apologos/center.html)
also
Prove that the earth goes around the sun (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=15528)

NeedKarma I think the important part is that you have not done the research only taken aonthers word for it. I did say, "And no, not by refering me to some usuless journal, or posted theories." In other words, show me the mathamatical equations how they work and why it is that the sun is the center of the galaxy. And with out, using some one else's theories, make up the theory on your own.

Then show me how. That's what I was trying to get at, any one can go look up on a web site some one else's work, but I want to see it work for me, not siad that this is how it works, that is just some useless info, wasted words on a page really.

Can you reconstruct that theory with out looking at it, and prove it's true? :confused:

I guess you don't believe in gravity then.

What is gravity, where does it come from? CAn you prove it's existence? With out taking form aother's theory, once again, recreate it but with out having read it prior to making it.

Sieriously, can you go from scratch, and write me a working model of how gravity works, with mathimatical equations, and important details that you discovered on your own?

If not, it's just hear say, subjective story tellings, of one's "belief", of how things work. Proof, is only relative in the situation it's used. Things change you know.

i don't think he/she is being lazy. sarnian just wants scientific proof. it just makes more sense when things are proven with scientific facts. even if you see it for yourself. also we don't know how to conduct an experiment using magic so how are we going to know? i'm not saying that i don't believe you. i just want to know what you do exactly when you do magic.

Um, yes I did spell Prey, and in Praying to GOD/S "wrong", and yes that is actually pretty funny.:p;)

But like I was saying, "all are one, and one is all." Led-Zeppelin Stairway to heaven.
Ever hear of Mitochondria? Cell Organelles: Mitochondria (http://www.cellsalive.com/cells/mitochon.htm) Since people of science seem so set on Proof, and seem to take other's words for it, here read learn. I don't know much about it and don't know if it's really true, but aparently they are like the fabled Midichlorines of the Star wars movies. Some say that George L. was not far off from them. We don't really know much about how these, Mitochondria react with our brains, so how do we know we can't control them and use "Jedi" like powers? We still know very little about life, and evenless about the nature of things... :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFJYUzsXCSE&feature=channel_page

Now to any one who noticed that I made a comment about "what would happen if you took one hemasphere out of a person's head?" There is a case where this has bin done, as far as I know any way. Judge for yourself, can a person live with half a brian?
YouTube - Brain Plasticity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSu9HGnlMV0) (Warning, its sad. Poor little girl. Show some RESPECT, please. She deserves that.)

So, how will this affect her, we don't really know, on account she had issues to begin with, and we can not compare her to "socially accepted Norms." She is a girl of her own class and with a massive reduction of her brain. It maybe that she keeps the mentaliy of a young girl, or maybe she is A savaunt (is that how you spell it?), with almost no capability in an opposite function. For example, one side of the brain, right we'll say, is usually responsible for more spacial tasks, and controls the left side of the body. This little girl looses that hemasphere of the brain, and relies entirely on her left hemaspfere to do both the jobs of the Left and right. How does the brain do it, well "cerebral relastate". Think of every part of your brain having a kind of plots of land where ideas, and other functions will take place. So everything on the right moves to the left, thus the probablity of the left side functioning shrinking is high; but not absolute. Remember, there is only so much room on the left side to take the rest of the right side's functions. Note, the fact that the brain can adapte like this, is called Nuero plasticity.
I'm sure I made mistakes, but the point is, that the world, exsistance is not really stable, there for, we can only really draw up conclutions of probability, not absolute. If you think anything is absolute, you are assuming Much... No?

Still we don't know why these things happen as they do, we just do. Kind of like Medications for a mental illness. We know how the brian/ body will react in general terms, but we don't know why really. It's a Trial and error process.

Haha, scientific Proof? Can any one infact prove that I have billions of organismes in my body??
Yes one can. Just one drip of blood or a small snip of tissue under a microscope will be enough to prove that.


Can any one show me that we are going around the sun? Yes i mean via the internet.
Yes one can, but that depends on your willingness to accept that proof. A couple of (officially confirmed as true) photo's of the solar system will do. Or if you give it a year, just the sun seemingly moving between the 2 tropics proves that.


Science is still only subjective, in that it's only true in the moment you test it. Things change.
Science is in it's core nothing more than explaining everything we see around us, and if possible complete with valid support. That 'things change' is no reason to suggest that previous(ly) things are no longer true.
The only real totally subjective thinking is (in belief, in gods, in magic, or in fill-in whatever suits you). Any belief is without valid support. It is the essence of belief, and therefore subject to fair questioning of it's validity.

...unlike Sarnian who keeps asking for others to do it for him which just displays his laziness
I do not claim anything, you do. You claim, so it is up to you to prove your claim.
I am not lazy. Besides that : as I do not claim anything, it is not up to me to prove either in favor or against magic. Either you can not prove your invalid claims, or you are too lazy to prove your claim that magic is real.
It does not require a degree in rocket science to understand that.

Yes one can. Just one drip of blood or a small snip of tissue under a microscope will be enough to prove that.


Yes one can, but that depends on your willingness to accept that proof. A couple of (officially confirmed as true) photo's of the solar system will do. Or if you give it a year, just the sun seemingly moving between the 2 tropics proves that.


Science is in it's core nothing more than explaining everything we see around us, and if possible complete with valid support. That 'things change' is no reason to suggest that previous(ly) things are no longer true.
The only real totally subjective thinking is (in belief, in gods, in magic, or in fill-in whatever suits you). Any belief is without valid support. It is the essence of belief, and therefore subject to fair questioning of it's validity.

Ok, the whole prove it part, you missed the idea. I have never actually used a microscope on myself nor any one else, I've seen pictures that claim these things, but how do I know they are true. I do of course leave their ability to be valid open, but until I get to find our for sure I can't simply trust one's words. I wanted some one to give me a working theory, they make themselves and prove, then to show me how it works. Other wise everything you show me is Subjective in my head imaginative evidence. In fact, everything we see is in our head and is amatter of interpretation, so yes I agree with you there.

Once again, Proof. I don't want it from some where on the net, I want some one to prove it by recreating the theory, but with out looking at it... See, you 'd have to figure it out on your own, then try explaining it to me... Other wise it's just here say.

Science is a product of Philosophy, an explaining or investigating of life. Every thing is apart of life, no? We are made of so many things, elements, chemicals, cells, bacteria, Mitochondria, etc. Just because we can reproduce the same out come 100% of the time, doesn't mean that there will be atime that it is prooven wrong. There for, it must be subjective. Only relevant in the moment it's being prooven. "Nothing is forever." See the paradox, if nothing is forever, then are we nothing, is everything nothing? :confused:

IF I pick up a book and it rests in my hand, palm up opened flat, am I touching the book, is it touching me?
Really, think about it, we never ever touch anything, there is always that small space between us and the other object. The reason we feel is due to transference of energy.

So how can we say we know anything 100%. Objective Supporting Evidence seems to be only a conclution of probability...

No?

I have never actually used a microscope on my self nor any one else, i've seen pictures that claim these things, but how do I know they are true.
That you have never done that does not mean it is not true. It is up to you to correct yourself on that point, if you really want to know if that is true or not. If you want you can obtain the evidence you were referring to, though only in the way it is available.
That the evidence may not be 100% to your specifications does not qualify it's validity.

The entire topic discussion here has been related to the wild claim that magic is real.
However that is a claim which can not be supported by any valid evidence, so it is a belief.

i don't think he/she is being lazy. sarnian just wants scientific proof. it just makes more sense when things are proven with scientific facts. even if you see it for yourself. also we don't know how to conduct an experiment using magic so how are we going to know? i'm not saying that i don't believe you. i just want to know what you do exactly when you do magic.

I posted an earlier response to what I usually do when I cast spells. However, I'm no where near an authority on Wiccan/Ceremonial magic so I suggest looking for rituals on the internet or take an hour or so and go to Borders or Barnes & Noble and flip through a book or two there. They will detail in explicit content on how to do magic.

I posted an earlier response ...
Another non-answer !

... i'm not saying that i don't believe you ...
Neither do I. I just ask JM to provide scientific support for what he claims to be true : that magic is real.
Or admit that he believes that magic is real , when he/she can not provide that scientific support.

Neither do I. I just ask JM to provide scientific support for what he claims to be true : that magic is real.
Or admit that he believes that magic is real , when he/she can not provide that scientific support.

I believe I said three times already that I do believe in magic. Your statement right there proves that you don't listen to anything anyone says. So this whole time, rather than reading and comprehending anything that I, or any one else on this thread has said, you just skim over it and decide you don't like it and then repost your pathetic attempt at a rebuttal.

Another non-answer !


How is that a non-answer? Rather than go back and spend another 10 minutes re-typing what I already typed, I simply told XOXO that I already posted it. If by someone not wanting to repeat themselves is a non-answer, then I wonder what you think an answer truly is. And before you post another lame attempt at asking for proof of magic, for the 4th time, I do believe in it. But I am 100% certain by this time tomorrow, you would have reposted AGAIN asking for proof or for me to admit that I believe in it.

That you have never done that does not mean it is not true. It is up to you to correct yourself on that point, if you really want to know if that is true or not. If you want you can obtain the evidence you were referring to, though only in the way it is available.
That the evidence may not be 100% to your specifications does not qualify it's validity.

The entire topic discussion here has been related to the wild claim that magic is real.
However that is a claim which can not be supported by any valid evidence, so it is a belief.

I disagree. The topic of discution is actually what is your deffinition of MAGIC, whether we realise that or not is up to each of us. I think some of you are thinking of Magic as in, Harry potter, or Gandalf, jedi mind tricks/ telekinesiss/ and force lightning etc.

Mean while the idea that is presented to us is different. Similar but not like that. If you go on YouTube look up psychictruth and find a video on the meaning of Magic or something about magic any way. Sorry my YouTube is not working, something about abobe flash player.

An act of magic is explain a little differntly than you'd think, and it's pretty interesting to see what they have to say. I can quite recall if they have references to support their claims but I'm sure if you asked, they'd give you some.

Further more, science what with all it's OSE (Objective supporting evidence.) and all is still just a belief. No one has to believe it. For example, If I told you that "the force" is real and we are apart of it in reality what would you say? "Bull" right? Well, it is debatable that Mitochondria are not indeed the same as Middicholorines of the star wars movies. I had read some where that is where Goerge got his idea, just made it fancy, flashy and hyped up, with different names. But since you like your science and OSE, then look for yourself. Do I believe it 100%, no not really, but then again I don't believe anything 100%.

Science maybe "explaining everything we see around us, and if possible complete with valid support." But, Philosophy is the study of the truth or principls underlying all knowledge. So, science is subject to opinion, interpretation, and validation just as anything other belief. However, since we are able to see the beginning and end of a science experiment, we figure that makes it more valid, or important than others. I agree that science is facination and if we did not have a pretty solid idea of what is most plossible, then we'd never have done what we've done, but that still doesn't convince me that it will always be thus. Matter is subject to change as well. Nither destroyed, nor created. Only relatively changed.

A little too "Rosemary's Baby" for me!

I don't believe in magic. However, I understand these sayings of how they exist. Good arguments, and it's true. Science cannot provide an answer to everything. Why do some people believe there is a God? Don't know. Science can't answer that? How is it that a soul came to be placed in our bodies. Eh.. No evidence of why or how, but we are in fact alive. There's a lot of controversy over the issue of magic and such. All I'm saying is, you can't rely on science to tell you everything. Some things just are the way they are.

I don't believe in magic. However, I understand these sayings of how they exist. Good arguments, and it's true. Science cannot provide an answer to everything. Why do some people believe there is a God? Dont know. Science can't answer that? How is it that a soul came to be placed in our bodies. Eh.. No evidence of why or how, but we are in fact alive. There's a lot of controversy over the issue of magic and such. All I'm saying is, you can't rely on science to tell you everything. Some things just are the way they are.



I don't understand the "how is it that a soul came to be placed in our bodies ... no evidence of why or how but we are in fact alive."

What does having a soul have to do with being alive?

I don't understand the "how is it that a soul came to be placed in our bodies ... no evidence of why or how but we are in fact alive."

What does having a soul have to do with being alive?

Well, how do you describe what it is that makes us alive. I mean the fact that we aren't just a mass or organs randomly working and we have personalities.

Well, how do you describe what it is that makes us alive. I mean the fact that we arent just a mass or organs randomly working and we have personalities.


What does that have to do with having a soul? Animals are alive, they aren't just a mass of organs randomly working and they have personalities. Do they have souls?

Did I say they didn't? No. This doesn't even pertain to the this thread. All I was doing was providing my own examples to agree with his thoughts on this. I wasn't bringing up a new random conversation about something completely different. Thanks

And what did I say before? I was referring to the thing that makes people what they are (animals too). Soul was the first word that came to my head.

And what did I say before? I was referring to the thing that makes people what they are (animals too). Soul was the first word that came to my head.


So you do believe that animals have souls? Or not?

I still don't understand your statement (which is what you said "before") which was: "How is it that a soul came to be placed in our bodies. Eh.. No evidence of why or how, but we are in fact alive."

The original question is/was "Is magic real." I don't get the connection.

I didn't say soul, you did. Whether it's the first thing that came to your head, it's what you posted.

I know I said soul. I kept saying I did. I used it as an example. Not a connection. I don't really understand why you don't get what Im trying to say

So if I wanted to cast a spell on something, what words or thoughts or whatever would I use? i.e. something simple like picking up an object without using hands...

I can use some magic, but its only limited to blowing out a candle with my "mind".

Soul is to intangability as a written record is to tangability. The apples versus oranges misunderstanding continues to encourage an argument that cannot be won. Would spaceships versus peanut butter be a clearer example?

If Objective Scientific Evidence is the only measuring stick of reality, if debatable facts are more real and valid than each person's individual perception, we're all screwed. Then nothing is real; there is no such thing as math, or magic.

I believe there is a elephant in my doorknob that controls the weather.

Interesting how none of this has anything to do with the thread I posted.

Interesting how none of this has anything to do with the thread I posted.Oh sorry, I didn't phrase it correctly.


I believe there is a elephant in my doorknob that controls the weather. Any questions?

This "blog" is now closed.