Several denominations believe that it is OK (and even encouraged) to ask Saints to pray for us.
:confused:So, what biblical evidence is there for that? :confused:
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

None!

Don,
Wrong,
One is that being a Christian you are referred to in the bible as a saint.
If someone asks you to pray to God for them would you refuse?
I think not.
I know that I would pray for them.
And there are other biblical indications of saint anctivies along those lines.
I want to know all that there are.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,
Sorry, I all this time have understood that the Catholic Church had to vote a person into saint hood. And then you were free to pray to/through them. If that is not what you were referring to then I apologize for not understanding.
In my Bible the concordance shows 8 times where the word saint is used.
Ps16:3, Da 7:22,Mt 27:52, Ac26:10, Ro8:27, ICo 6:2, Eph 2:19 and Rev 14:12.
None of which tell you to pray through anybody.

450donn, Yes the Catholic Church does say that certain people have become heavenly saints, and Jesus gave the power to do that to The Church.
I was referring to all saints.
Jesus Himself told us to pray for each other.
That means that He told us to be intermediaries for others.
Also look at what God told Job's friends to do about prayer.
He told them to ask Job to pray for them.
Jesus IS the supreme mediator.
When I pray to God, who is a trinity, for you and others I pray to The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The same when any saint prayes to God for us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

If you pray to Jesus or the holy spirit, how then do you reconcile that against MT 6? Where Jesus himself taught the disciples how to pray. OUR FATHER...

Donn.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all three beings in one God.
When you pray to one they all hear.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

donn.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all three beings in one God.
When you pray to one they all hear.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I believe Christ taught us to pray to The Father. Just as He has shown us to do in ensample to His praying to The Father (Mt Olive) It is also written in scripture, and spoken to us by Christ. Christ said we could ask anything in His name to the Father...

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Christ has said ask in my name, and it will be given...This shows that Christ is the principle of power, yet Christ still gives all glory to The Father.

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.


John 14:15-16 If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:20-21
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



Several denominations believe that it is OK (and even encouraged) to ask Saints to pray for us.

According to scripture a saint would be like Mose's brother Aaron. Of course he is no longer living.
Levit 11:43 references where after the law is respectfully unclean such as Aaron (psalms 106:16)

Who would you consider a saint? I consider a saint those in Christ (Phl 4:21)


Another example of saints are the angels... and we do not pray to angels!

I am not a religious person, but I am very spiritual. To be honest, the bible can be interpreted in so many different ways, you can pretty much put whatever meaning you want to it. But when you step back and look at the whole picture, it makes reference everywhere that god is in all of us, in everything, everywhere. My opinion is that when it comes to praying, it's the belief, and feelings behind what you are saying and asking for that is important. Not where you do it, or if you have someone do it for you. In other words, it's what you personally feel or believe that gets your thoughts and feeling projected. If you believe in your heart, you must speak through a saint, then your at absolutely right. On the other hand, if you believe in your heart that god is listening if you pray in your own bedroom, then you are also absolutely right.

I am however not good at quoting the bible, but this is how I view things, and how I really believe it is meant to be interpreted.

If they are alive, plenty

If they are no longer alive - none. In fact scripture says that if they are dead, it is an abomination in the eyes of God to communicate with them.

sndbay
The Saints are NOT dead. Jesus said so.
The bodies of some are dead but they are alive in Christ in heaven Just like Moses and Elijah.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay
The Saints are NOT dead. Jesus said so.
The bodies of some are dead but they are alive in Christ in heaven Just like Moses and Elijah.


Fred,

The word used in Deuteronomy is condemning speaking to the dead refers to being dead in the flesh.

BTW, as for Moses, what did God say about him?

Josh 1:1-2
1:1 After the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, it came to pass that the LORD spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' assistant, saying: 2 "Moses My servant is dead.
NKJV

Are you telling us that Moses, a servant of God, was not a saint?

Tj3,
I believe what Jesus said about that.
And that is that God is the God of the living, not the dead and Jesus was referring to people who HAD past this life.
"have you not read what was said to you by God,
'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."
Thanks,

Tj3,
I believe what Jesus said about that.
And that is that God is the God of the living, not the dead and Jesus was referring to people who HAD past this life.
"have you not read what was said to you by God,
'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."
Thanks,


Have you not read what God's word says about the dead saints?

Ps 116:15
15 Precious in the sight of the LORD
Is the death of His saints.
NKJV

The,
I have said whay I have said.
I believe what Jesus said.
Take it or forget it.

Tje,
I hace said whay I have said.
I believe what Jesus said.
Take it or forget it.

You can believe what you wish whether it is in scripture.

Tj3,
'What I believe is in Scripture as I quoted from Matthew 22.
Thanks

Tj3,
'What I believe is in Scripture as I quoted from Matthew 22.
Thanks
Which you took out of context. That passage is refuting those who deny the resurrection of the dead. It does not say that that we can ignore the prohibition against speaking to those who are dead in the flesh.

Matt 22:23-32
23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: "Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her." 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
NKJV


I note that you say that you accept this verse taken out of context, but you apparently do not accept these verses:

Ps 116:15
15 Precious in the sight of the LORD
Is the death of His saints.
NKJV

Josh 1:1-2
1:1 After the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, it came to pass that the LORD spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' assistant, saying: 2 "Moses My servant is dead.
NKJV

Tj3,
What Jesus said is clear.
Those dead of the body are alive in the Lord God.
Yes the living saints will die of the body but live in the Lord God.
If you don't mind (or even if you do) I'll believe what Jesus said.

Tj3,
What Jesus said is clear.
Those dead of the body are alive in the Lord God.
Yes the living saints will die of the body but live in the Lord God.
If you don't mind (or even if you do) I'll believe what Jesus said.

Then believe what he said in context. And believe other parts of the Bible. Believe what God says when He says when He condemns communicating with those who are dead in the flesh. You cannot take verses out of context (even out of the local context in the paragraph) and then claim that you believe what the Bible says.

Tj3,
I believe all of the bible.
I just do not believe some of the ways that you interpret it.
I know what the bible says about that and I believe that Jesus meant exactly what He said.
If you don't that is for you to decide for you, but not for me.

Tj3,
I believe what Jesus said about that.
And that is that God is the God of the living, not the dead and Jesus was referring to people who HAD past this life.
"have you not read what was said to you by God,
'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."
Thanks,

Fred...

The Bible... The Word.... is in reference of Life (or) Death

The meaning of satan is death...

The meaning of God's love and Christ is Life... His children, those who follow have Life.

Tj3,
What Jesus said is clear.
Those dead of the body are alive in the Lord God.
Yes the living saints will die of the body but live in the Lord God.
If you don't mind (or even if you do) I'll believe what Jesus said.

There are 3 different verse that speak of where the dead of the flesh return.

2 Corinthians 5:7-8

Luke 16:24

Ecclesiasters 12:6-7


None say we can pray for them or to them... The Word makes it very clear that once your flesh leaves to return home to the Father, that there is no contact with the flesh of the earth.. (Luke 16:27) confirmed how we on earth have what was fulfilled in scripture, and once departed from the body you will go to one side of the gulf or the other.. . But by no means will you send messages of hope to brothers!

Tj3,
I believe all of the bible.
I just do not believe some of the ways that you interpret it.
I know what the bible says about that and I believe that Jesus meant exactly what He said.
If you don't that is for you to decide for you, but not for me.

Jesus did mean exactly what he said - and did not mean for verses to be taken out of context of what he said.

This is what the topic is.
What biblical support is there for asking saints to pray for us?
I am interested in that nothing else.
Thanks

This is what the topic is.
What biblical support is there for asking saints to pray for us?
I am interested in that nothing else.
Thanks

Right - and the answer is clearly - None!

Amazing that it took 26 posts to arrive at the same answer I said in post number 2!
Thanks Tj3

450donn
But I do believe that The Saints in heaven CAN pray for us.
Fred

This is what the topic is.
What biblical support is there for asking saints to pray for us?
I am interested in that nothing else.
Thanks
If you are talking about the saints here on earth, yes, the Bible tells us to pray for each other. Of course, if we are saints here on earth, we don't need purgatory, do we.

450donn
But I do believe that The Saints in heaven CAN pray for us.
Fred

You can believe what you want but we are not discussing what YOU believe, but rather what the Bible says.

Tj3,
Then please tell me what bible passages support The theology that the Saints in heave or earth can pray for us.
The question is NOT about asking for biblical passages which may be used in disfavor of that.
Fred

Tj3,
Then please tell me what bible passages support The theology that the Saints in heave or earth can pray for us.
The question is NOT about asking for biblical passages which may be used in disfavor of that.
Fred
Does this one qualify?

1 Timothy 2:1-4 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Or this one?

James 5:13-16 Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Wondergirl,
Very good.
Those can be used for that.
Thanks,
Fred

I think that for another saint to ask some 1 to pray for them you have to believe and have faith in god that he will answer your prayers I have faith and believe that god will be answer every body prayers just keep your faith.

Tj3,
Then please tell me what bible passages support The theology that the Saints in heave or earth can pray for us.


I did - I said plenty for those on earth, but none for those in heaven

Tj3,
I'm not interested in your negatives.
I'm looking for positive responses.
Jesus said that God is the God of the living, not the dead.
I believe Jesus.
Fred

Tj3,
I'm not interested in your negatives.
I'm looking for positive responses.

Fred, an honest response is sometimes negative.


Jesus said that God is the God of the living, not the dead.


You do know that was a defense of the truth of the resurrections against the Sadduccees who denied it, don't you? You do know that it in no way contradicts the Biblical prohibition against communication with the dead, don't you?

Yj3,
I know what Jesus said and how He said it.
It was positive.
That is good enough for me.

Yj3,
I know what Jesus said and how He said it.
It was positive.
That is good enough for me.

So if your interpretation taking it out of context is positive, that is all you need? Once you take it out of context, it is not God's word you are following, but yours. Here is the question that was being asked when that comment was made:

Mark 12:18-20
18 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying: 19 "Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man's brother dies, and leaves his wife behind, and leaves no children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife; and dying, he left no offspring.
NKJV

Do you believe God when He prohibited communication with the dead?

Deut 18:10-14
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. 14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you.
NKJV

Tj3,
I do NOT take it out of context.
Please quit with your false accusations.
Fred

Tj3,
I do NOT take it out of context.
Please quit with your false accusations.
Fred

But you do Fred. You claim that it has something to do with communicating with the dead, but the context is a rebuttal of the Sadduccees claim that there is no resurrection.

Tj3,
I know what was said.
See you just did it again.
Please quit.
Fred

Tj3,
I know what was said.
See you just did it again.
Please quit.
Fred

Yes, Fred, I told the truth again.

1. Praying to dead people.

It is the Catholic view that there are those who have died the death of the body and have gone on to the eternal life promised in the Gospel (Mt.10.17-22, 19.29, 25.46; Mk.10.30; Lk.10.25-30,18.18-30; Jn.3.15-16). Catholics believe that God has kept his promise and that these people are indeed alive. And Scripture gives evidence of this: We see Lazarus alive by Abraham's side (Lk.16.23); at the transfiguration we see Moses and Elijah alive beside Jesus. (Mt.17.3); we see the presbyters worshipping God at Rev.4.10. Catholics believe that those who have been called home to God do a lot of communicating, praying and worshiping, and singing and stuff like that. We are told that Jesus opened the gates to Heaven and that "The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised" (Mt.27.52). Moreover, as Fred has pointed out, Catholics believe Jesus when he said "Now he is a God not of the dead, but of the living, for to him all of them are alive " (Lk.20.38).

The following “proof-text” has been adduced to show that communication with the dead is prohibited. Of course, this presumes that the saints are dead, which as I have just shown, they are not. They are living the eternal life promised in the Gospel. But, for the sake of argument, let’s just take a closer look at Dt.18.10-14. Here’s what has been offered above:

Deut 18:10-14
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. 14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you.
NKJV

Does this prohibit prayer to saints? A careful reading shows that that isn’t at all what is being talked about here. Instead, what is prohibited is what we would today call the occult: Magic, sorcery, divination, summoning the dead. I don’t know any Catholic who thinks that asking for the intercession (i.e. the intercessory prayer) of the saints is summoning the dead. No, they’re just asking those who are close to God to pray for them. And that’s a good thing. The things that the above passage prohibits are pretty far from anything that Catholics and others who pray to the saints engage in. And Christians have been doing this since the earliest days of the faith, as anyone who has visited the catacombs would know. In fact, the earliest Christian graffiti to have survived calls for prayer to the saints and martyrs.

2. There is only one mediator
It has been pointed out that Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man (1 Tim.2.5; Heb.8.6, 9.15, 12.24). And this is something no Catholic would deny, unless that Catholic is a heretic. Scripture and Tradition are clear on this point. But does this show that we are to communicate ONLY with God? Certainly 1Tim.2 doesn’t say that. It says that there is only one mediator, but this isn’t something that Catholics deny. Scripture doesn’t caution us against seeking the intercessory prayers of others; in fact, it encourages us to seek the intercession of others: “I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made for everyone” (1Tim.2.1). In v.4 we read that this conduces to salvation and knowledge of the truth.

Is there some special reason to think that Christians in heaven do not pray? Or that they do not or cannot pray for others? Scripture tells us that Christ is the only mediator, but it clearly doesn’t regard prayer for others as in any way at odds with that fact.

Heb.8.6 tells us that Jesus’s ministry excels that of the high priests; Heb.9.15 and 12.24 tell us that he is the mediator of a New Covenant. Here again we find nothing at odds with what I have said above, nor with the practice of seeking the intercession of the saints in heaven. We know that Christ permits others to participate in his ministry. Why suppose that this excludes those whom he has called home to him?

Catholics believe that Mt.25.21 speaks to those Christians who have entered the Kingdom of Heaven: The servant who enters into the joy of his master is “put in charge of many things”.

3. All Christians are saints
It has been pointed out that all living Christians are saints. Catholics agree: Every member of the Body of Christ is a saint.

But notice that Paul himself uses the word saint (ho hagios) in such a way as to distinguish between the faithful, all of whom are said to be saints (hoi hagioi) and others who are also said to be saints (again, hoi hagioi) in some special sense. We see this at, for instance, Acts 9.32 and again at Col.1.2 (“to the saints and faithful brothers”) . The term is also used with some frequency in the OT, at a time when there were no Christians. This is to say that the term “saint” can be applied equally to those who are alive in the flesh and to those who have been gathered into heaven. The faithful are alive in God and they are with us, whether they are beside us in the pews or in the Kingdom of Heaven.

It is the Catholic view...

Though interesting, I'd rather discussing the Biblical perspective rather than a denominational interpretation.


Deut 18:10-14
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. 14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you.
NKJV

Does this prohibit prayer to saints? A careful reading shows that that isn’t at all what is being talked about here. Instead, what is prohibited is what we would today call the occult: Magic, sorcery, divination, summoning the dead.

And praying(talking to) the dead is summoning. There is nothing else that matters on this topic once one has demonstrated that scripture prohibits communication with the dead.

And praying(talking to) the dead is summoning. There is nothing else that matters on this topic once one has demonstrated that scripture prohibits communication with the dead.

1. The saints aren't dead. They enjoy the eternal life promised to them by Christ.
2. Dt. Prohibits sorcery and the occult (summoning the dead here refers to necromancy). Notice it is also part of the Law which has been superceded. So (a) talking to saints isn't talking to the dead, (b) Dt. Doesn't prohibit what Catholics and others do when they pray to saints, and (c) the Mosaic Law isn't binding (or do you adhere to the whole of the Law? Didn't think so).

1. The saints aren't dead. They enjoy the eternal life promised to them by Christ.

As you should know, Akoue, the word in the original Hebrew refers to those who have died in the flesh, which is true of these persons whether saved or unsaved.

Deuteronomy makes no distinction between death of the flesh and eternal life in Christ, nor does it make a distinction between saved and unsaved. So your point is, at best, anachronistic.

But really it's just not to the point. Even if we set the anachronism aside, it is still (a) talking about necromancy (in fact lots of translations of Dt.18.11 render the phrase this way, i.e. "necromancy") and (b) it is part of the OT Mosaic Law which is no longer binding.

Now people who pray to saints (a) aren't engaging in necromancy and (b) aren't bound by the Mosaic Law. They are asking others to pray for them, something Christians are encouraged to do. Moreover, they are praying to those who have eternal life and are even now with God in the Kingdom of Heaven. These considerations, together with those offered in my earlier post (#44), show that there is nothing at all wrong with praying to saints. If, however, someone feels uncomfortable doing so that's fine. I certainly don't think anyone should feel obligated to pray to saints. But there isn't anything wrong with it.

Some pray to saints for what purpose?

Some pray to saints for what purpose?

Have you ever asked another to pray for you? Why?

Where is it scripturally correct to pray through or to anybody except God? I find no where in my Bible where it tells me to pray to anybody except God the father. I think you are suggesting heresy with your comments.

Where is it scripturally correct to pray through or to anybody except God? I find no where in my Bible where it tells me to pray to anybody except God the father. I think you are suggesting heresy with your comments.

Then you are confused.

Until very recently, the word "pray" in English meant to ask or to petition another--as you'd know if you ever read Shakespeare or nineteenth century English novels. Only since the early twentieth century has the word "pray" come to be used exclusively for petitions addressed to God. When Catholics and others pray to saints, they are doing what you do when you ask (pray, in the now archaic sense) someone to pray to God for you.

The Bible prohibits worship of anyone other than God. Nowhere does it prohibit petitioning (asking, praying) others to offer intercessory prayers on one's behalf. As I have shown, this is in fact encouraged by Scripture.

Deuteronomy makes no distinction between death of the flesh and eternal life in Christ, nor does it make a distinction between saved and unsaved. So your point is, at best, anachronistic.

Let's deal with you last comment first - this makes no distinction between saved and unsaved - that you got right. There is no distinction anywhere in scripture with respect to speaking with the dead as to whether they are saved and unsaved, and thus taking that passage in the NT about God being God of the living (which was taken entirely out of context) has no bearing on this question whatsoever.


But really it's just not to the point. Even if we set the anachronism aside, it is still (a) talking about necromancy (in fact lots of translations of Dt.18.11 render the phrase this way, i.e. "necromancy") and (b) it is part of the OT Mosaic Law which is no longer binding.

Necromancy comes from two words, the first meaning "dead tissue", in other words speaking of the dead in the flesh, and mancer referring to divination, a term used to call up the dead or other being from the spirit world. Thus it is referring to conjuring up those who are dead in the flesh. Translators agree.

We have one example in scripture where someone tried speaking to the dead and God condemned the act.


Now people who pray to saints (a) aren't engaging in necromancy and (b) aren't bound by the Mosaic Law.

As for (a), yes they are by the definition of the term; and (b) it is interesting that you simply and completely toss out not just Mosaic law but the intent of the law. Do you also believe that lying, cheating, adultery are okay because they are part of Mosaic law? I hope not. The fact is that though Christians are not bound by the law, the law represents God's standard for us. Jesus was clear that he was not getting rid of the law:

Matt 5:17-20
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
NKJV

So, to say that because Christians are no longer under the law, that we can therefore be law-less is not scriptural.

Then you are confused.

Until very recently, the word "pray" in English meant to ask or to petition another--as you'd know if you ever read Shakespeare or nineteenth century English novels.

Many words in English and other languages carry multiple meanings - that does not mean that we can mix the meanings to apply to situations which are out of context. Unless of course, you think that a bundle of stick (a fag) is the same thing as a cigarette (a fag). I am sure that yo9u can think of numerous examples of similar multiple meaning words that used even today in everyday speech.

So when someone is petitioning the judge in the courtroom and using the word "pray" to mean "petition", it does not mean the same thing as praying to the dead.


Nowhere does it prohibit petitioning (asking, praying) others to offer intercessory prayers on one's behalf.

As shown it does prohibit any communication between those alive in the flesh and those dead in the flesh.


As I have shown, this is in fact encouraged by Scripture.

Show us anyplace where praying to the dead is encouraged by scripture.

Akoue,
Thank you very much.
I appreciate your use of holy Scripture to demonstrate the points you so well made.
Yes indeed, the Saints in heaven are not dead which includes many of those from the Old Testament such as Jacob, Moses and Elijah.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

the Saints in heaven are not dead
Do we really know the state of those who are in heaven (if they are)? I've heard both body and soul sleep until Judgment Day. I've also heard that one immediately enters heaven after death. If someone on earth prays to a deceased relative who supposedly died in Christ, what can that relative do for the earthbound person? And if that relative is not in heaven, then what?

If someone on earth prays to a deceased relative who supposedly died in Christ, what can that relative do for the earthbound person? And if that relative is not in heaven, then what?

Another important question is, if God can hear our prayers, then what can a mere person do for us that God cannot?

Woundergirl,
Of course the saints in heaven are not dead or they would not be in heaven.
On this thread Scripture has been quoted that shows that some people who have passed this life not dead and are in heaven.
Also quoted were Jesus words to that effect,
I believe that if you prayed to a relative who has passed away and who did indeed make it to heaven that person is a heavenly saint and can pray to God for you.
The more people, in the flesh or in heaven, you have praying for you the better.
I have often asked all the saints in heaven to pray for me to the Lord our God.
In fact that request of the saints is a part of the daily Mass in Catholic Churches world wide.
I praise God that He has saints in heaven for they are God's human success story.
That is that many people (Now heavenly saints) were convince about the truth of God and followed His will and thus made it to heaven.
I image that like a very good artist displaying his good works for all to see.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I believe that if you prayed to a relative who has passed away and who did indeed make it to heaven that person is a heavenly saint and can pray to God for you.
Why would he or she pray for me?

The more people, in the flesh or in heaven, you have praying for you the better.
Why is that important? I can communicate with God just fine on my own.

I believe that if you prayed to a relative who has passed away and who did indeed make it to heaven that person is a heavenly saint and can pray to God for you.
The more people, in the flesh or in heaven, you have praying for you the better.

Fred,

Ignoring the Biblical prohibition against praying to the dead for a moment, why do you think that a mere human in human would enhance your prayer getting to God the Father? Does God need a "hearing aid"?

Wondergirl,
You asked about requesting a relative who had passed away to pray for you.
That is why I mentioned it.
Yes you can pray for yourself, but not as well as a more righteous person at the thone of God can pray for you.
Obviously the more people who pray for you the better as Jesus tells us in the parable of the magistrate.
The more God is prayed to about you the more effective those prayers will be.
Another example is in the bible that tells ALL of Jesus' followers to pray for each other.
I often pray for all here and all Christians. I'm sure that there are many people who do that for have seen and heard them doing so..
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes you can pray for yourself, but not as well as a more righteous person at the thone of God can pray for you.
What will I get when people in heaven pray for me?

Obviously the more people who pray for you the better as Jesus tells us in the parable of the magistrate. The more God is prayed to about you the more effective those prayers will be.
Again, why? What will I get?

Wodergirl,
You would get more attention to you with many other people praying for you.
You, being a Christian are a earthly saint.
I am a diabetic with all of the problems that go alone with that plus a lot of back pain.
So I ask others to pray for me for God to sustain, help and heal me.
So I ask you to pray for me. Will you please do so?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wodergirl,
You would get more attention to you with many other people praying for you.

Exactly whose influence would exceed that of Jesus?

John 16:26-28
26 In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.
NKJV

And, if the prayers of another saint help, why would you not simply ask earthly saints to pray for you rather than violating the Biblical prohibition against speaking to the dead?

Tj3,
See the parable of the magistrate for that.
Jesus gives the answer there.
Fred

Tj3,
See the parable of the magistrate for that.
Jesus gives the answer there.
Fred

Fred,

I don't see how you interpret that to say that anyone has more influence than Jesus. Please explain.

Tj3,
Please do not assume or that I said that anyone has more influence than Jesus or twist what I say.The subject on this is that many others have influence than just one or that many prayers are more effective than just one.
NO ONE has more influence with the Father than does His Son and I'm sure that you KNEW that I believed that.
So why do you ask such things?
By the way I want to thank you for your efforts on Biblical evidence of the Trinity and I want to ask you if I can use the information you provided in your words the next time I hold a boble class on that subject.
I will give credit where credit is due on your job well done.
Fred

Why would he or she pray for me?

Why is that important? I can communicate with God just fine on my own.

Yes, we can, each of us, communicate just fine with God on our own. And yet Scripture repeatedly encourages us to pray for each other, to seek the intercession of others (1Tim.2, which I quoted above, is explicit about that). So why? Why ask others to pray for us if we can petition God all on our own? Why does Scripture tell us to do so? Or perhaps more to the point, why do you seem to be puzzled about it?

Let's deal with you last comment first - this makes no distinction between saved and unsaved - that you got right. There is no distinction anywhere in scripture with respect to speaking with the dead as to whether they are saved and unsaved, and thus taking that passage in the NT about God being God of the living (which was taken entirely out of context) has no bearing on this question whatsoever.

Lk.20.38 sure looks relevant to me. Take a look at v.36: "Indeed they cannot die anymore, because they are like angels and are children of God, being children of the resurrection." Christ is preaching eternal life and the resurrection of the flesh to the scribes. If you think it has no bearing you're going to have to make a case for that, since it looks on point to me. The NT does make a distinction between saved and unsaved and the OT does not. That's why Lk.20 is relevant and Dt.18 isn't.


Necromancy comes from two words, the first meaning "dead tissue", in other words speaking of the dead in the flesh, and mancer referring to divination, a term used to call up the dead or other being from the spirit world. Thus it is referring to conjuring up those who are dead in the flesh. Translators agree.

The English word "necrotic" does refer to dead tissue, as you say. The Greek word "nekros" means dead. The Greek word "nekroo" means to make dead. But, in any case, asking the saints to pray for us isn't divination: It's asking the saints to pray for us. This is worlds away from fortune-telling (which is what necromancers did)--as I'm sure you know.


We have one example in scripture where someone tried speaking to the dead and God condemned the act.

Christ spoke to Lazarus when he raised him. Was Christ guilty of violating the Law at the Transfiguration when he was joined by Moses and Elijah? Nah, didn't think so.


As for (a), yes they are by the definition of the term; and (b) it is interesting that you simply and completely toss out not just Mosaic law but the intent of the law. Do you also believe that lying, cheating, adultery are okay because they are part of Mosaic law? I hope not. The fact is that though Christians are not bound by the law, the law represents God's standard for us. Jesus was clear that he was not getting rid of the law:

Matt 5:17-20
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
NKJV

So, to say that because Christians are no longer under the law, that we can therefore be law-less is not scriptural.

Hmm. So you don't shave your beard or trim your fore-locks? I've seen you claim many times that we are no longer bound by the Law.

The Law has been fulfilled by Christ, a point made repeatedly both by Paul and... ehem... by you, on these very boards.

But, in any case, those who fell asleep in the Lord aren't dead. They are more alive than we, since they have entered the Kingdom. If you wish to deny that Christ has conquered death, feel free. I'll stick with God's word.

(That last phrase sounds familiar. Wonder where I've heard it?)

So when someone is petitioning the judge in the courtroom and using the word "pray" to mean "petition", it does not mean the same thing as praying to the dead.

It sure does. Those who pray to saints are asking them to pray for them. The same way you might ask a friend or family member to pray for you. Catholics don't pray to the dead because they don't believe the saints to be dead: They have eternal life with their Heavenly Father. Christ conquered death.


Show us anyplace where praying to the dead is encouraged by scripture.

Catholics don't pray to the dead. They pray to those who have eternal life with the Father. Why do you insist on denying that God keeps his promises?

What will I get when people in heaven pray for me?

Again, why? What will I get?

What do you "get" when people on earth pray for you?

Do you imagine that God refuses to hear the prayers of those whom he has called home to him? Do you believe that their worship is less meaningful than ours here on earth? (If anything, I'd bet that they pray even better than we do, though that's just a hunch.)

Tj3,
Please do not assume or that I said that anyone has more influence than Jesus or twist what I say.

You said that the more people that we have praying rather than just Jesus as opur mediator with the Father would be more effective. I asked who would have more influence than Jesus and then you referenced that parable for the answer.

If that is not what you meant, then you should have clarified.



NO ONE has more influence with the Father than does His Son and I'm sure that you KNEW that I believed that.

Then no one in heaven will influence God the father more than Jesus, so why violate the prohibition against communication with the dead?



By the way I want to thank you for your efforts on Biblical evidence of the Trinity and I want to ask you if I can use the information you provided in your words the next time I hold a boble class on that subject.

Yes, certainly you can.

Lk.20.38 sure looks relevant to me. Take a look at v.36: "Indeed they cannot die anymore, because they are like angels and are children of God, being children of the resurrection." Christ is preaching eternal life and the resurrection of the flesh to the scribes. If you think it has no bearing you're going to have to make a case for that, since it looks on point to me. The NT does make a distinction between saved and unsaved and the OT does not. That's why Lk.20 is relevant and Dt.18 isn't.

Show me where in that passage that it says that the unsaved are dead and the saved are alive.

If you say that the unsaved are dead, then it sounds like you are promoting annihilationism.


The English word "necrotic" does refer to dead tissue, as you say. The Greek word "nekros" means dead. The Greek word "nekroo" means to make dead.

So the word does make reference to dead in the flesh, thus that is what is referenced here. We are making progress.


But, in any case, asking the saints to pray for us isn't divination: It's asking the saints to pray for us. This is worlds away from fortune-telling (which is what necromancers did)--as I'm sure you know.

As you pointed out, it can also mean to summon, and you most certainly are hoping for them to hear you if you are praying to them, so you are indeed summoning them.


Christ spoke to Lazarus when he raised him.

Right - He raised Him from the dead and spoke to Him. The problem is?


Was Christ guilty of violating the Law at the Transfiguration when he was joined by Moses and Elijah? Nah, didn't think so.

You mean when He was in His glorified state as God?


Hmm. So you don't shave your beard or trim your fore-locks? I've seen you claim many times that we are no longer bound by the Law.

We are no longer under the law, meaning the letter of the law, but that does not mean that we are to be or can be law-less. We are not to follow the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law which is written on our hearts, so that we do not follow the letter but the spirit:

Jer 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
NKJV

Now, how do you turn this around to say that you can completely toss out the prohibition against communication with the dead, or the 10 commandments, and live whatever way you wish?

It sure does. Those who pray to saints are asking them to pray for them.

Get thee to a dictionary!

When you petition a higher authority such as a judge, you do not pray to them. It is a much different situation. And never had any such situation exist where the judge in the courtroom or the city council was dead.


The same way you might ask a friend or family member to pray for you. Catholics don't pray to the dead because they don't believe the saints to be dead: They have eternal life with their Heavenly Father. Christ conquered death.


You have already conceded that Deut 18 in context speaks of those who are dead in flesh.

Show me where in that passage that it says that the unsaved are dead and the saved are alive.

If you say that the unsaved are dead, then it sounds like you are promoting annihilationism.

I've never said that sinners are annihilated, as opposed to being sent to hell. In fact, I've never come within a country mile of even addressing that subject. Are you confused about what annihilationism is?

The unsaved go to hell. The saved go to heaven, i.e. eternal life with God.


So the word does make reference to dead in the flesh, thus that is what is referenced here. We are making progress.



As you pointed out, it can also mean to summon, and you most certainly are hoping for them to hear you if you are praying to them, so you are indeed summoning them.

What I've said about Dt.18.11 is that the prohibition against summoning the dead offered there is a prohibition against necromancy (occurring as it does alongside prohibitions against other sorts of occult practices). And, since asking the saints to offer intercessory prayers isn't necromancy, it doesn't speak to the present topic. Moreover, since the saints aren't dead but are living eternal life with their Creator, addressing them wouldn't count as communicating with the dead in any case.


Right - He raised Him from the dead and spoke to Him. The problem is?

He raised him from the dead by speaking to him. No problem for me.


You mean when He was in His glorified state as God?

I mean at the Transfiguration, when he was hanging out with a couple of dead guys--who clearly were still capable of communicating with the living since Christ hadn't been crucified yet.


We are no longer under the law, meaning the letter of the law, but that does not mean that we are to be or can be law-less. We are not to follow the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law which is written on our hearts, so that we do not follow the letter but the spirit:

Jer 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
NKJV

Now, how do you turn this around to say that you can completely toss out the prohibition against communication with the dead, or the 10 commandments, and live whatever way you wish?

So I am to infer that your beard and fore-locks must be really, really long? You keep kashrut as well? Too bad. Bacon is yummy.

I have no problem with the OT prohibition against the occult. I just think it's obvious to anyone with a functioning brain-stem that asking the saints for intercessory prayers comes nowhere close to trafficking in the occult.

Get thee to a dictionary!

Pray tell, why?

See what I did? I just "prayed" to you... by, you know, asking you something.


When you petition a higher authority such as a judge, you do not pray to them. It is a much different situation. And never had any such situation exist where the judge in the courtroom or the city council was dead.

It's a pity to see how little faith you have in God's promises.


You have already conceded that Deut 18 in context speaks of those who are dead in flesh.

I have "conceded" that Dt.18 is off-topic.

I've never said that sinners are annihilated, as opposed to being sent to hell. In fact, I've never come within a country mile of even addressing that subject. Are you confused about what annihilationism is?

Well then explain your position - that is what appears confused. If you say that God is the God of the living, and thus you use that to say that it is okay to ignore the Biblical prohibition against speaking to the dead, then what are you saying:

1) Are you saying that the unsaved are annihilated?
2) Are you saying that God is not God of the unsaved?
3) Are you saying that we can speak to the dead who are unsaved?



What I've said about Dt.18.11 is that the prohibition against summoning the dead offered there is a prohibition against necromancy (occurring as it does alongside prohibitions against other sorts of occult practices).

Right, which we already agreed speak to those dead in the flesh.



I mean at the Transfiguration, when he was hanging out with a couple of dead guys--who clearly were still capable of communicating with the living since Christ hadn't been crucified yet.

Are you confused about what "transfigured" means?


I have no problem with the OT prohibition against the occult. I just think it's obvious to anyone with a functioning brain-stem that asking the saints for intercessory prayers comes nowhere close to trafficking in the occult.

Ah, so edging into the abuse / ad hominems again.

Pray tell, why?

See what I did? I just "prayed" to you... by, you know, asking you something.

Because you seem to have your own version of the English m,anguage which disagrees with accepted version. Must be the "akoue dialect".



It's a pity to see how little faith you have in God's promises.


How come every time you are hit with hard questions, you need to get into personal abusive comments.


I have "conceded" that Dt.18 is off-topic.

An avoidance approach I see.

What do you "get" when people on earth pray for you?

Do you imagine that God refuses to hear the prayers of those whom he has called home to him? Do you believe that their worship is less meaningful than ours here on earth? (If anything, I'd bet that they pray even better than we do, though that's just a hunch.)
It just seems that my beloved father in heaven has far more interesting and important things to do in heaven than to look "down" to earth to check up on WG and any prayers she has offered to him (who then brings them to the Lord's attention). I've always thought of earth and heaven as two very separate realms, with heavenly (formerly earthly) residents' personal knowledge of our earthly comings and goings as totally apart from their existence, just as we have no personal knowledge of what's going on with heavenly beings.

I guess I think that because here on earth we are caught in Time. Everything is linear. Everything has a beginning, middle, and end. In heaven there is no Time as we know it. It is always Now. I have gotten glimpses of that because of my cats who do not regret ripping up that upholstery yesterday nor do they fret and worry that I will run out of Fancy Feast and perhaps feed them some dreaded Nine Lives tomorrow. My cats live in the Now.

I believe that the joys of heaven and living always in the Now preclude worrying or thinking about the still earth-bound. It's a nice idea to think my father is concerned about me, but it comforts me so much more to know that he is doing "his Father's business" in a place where he always longed to go. People have told my mother, "Your husband is in heaven and is keeping an eye out for you," and she responds with, "I'm sure God has put him to work doing more important things than that. I'm guessing he's very busy being everything he was here on earth and more."

Am I against intercessory prayer here on earth? No, not at all. I daily pray for friends and relatives and as special requests, and am glad to know that others pray for me. I believe I have a rich prayer life with an almost continuous conversation with God. After all, prayer is practicing the presence of God, i.e. prayer not only is a quiet, sedentary, and mindful (and centering) occupation with folded hands and closed eyes but also has an active and dynamic quality in a life of service to others.

Well then explain your position - that is what appears confused. if you say that God is the God of the living, and thus you use that to say that it is okay to ignore the Biblical prohibition against speaking to the dead, then what are you saying:

1) Are you saying that the unsaved are annihilated?
2) Are you saying that God is not God of the unsaved?
3) Are you saying that we can speak to the dead who are unsaved?

Non, nein, nope.

I don't think I could have made my position any more clear. Here it is in numbered propositions:

1. Scripture encourages intercessory prayer.
2. The saints enjoy the eternal life that was promised them and are alive with the Father.
3. The saints in heaven pray and worship.
4. We can ask the saints to offer intercessory prayers because they are alive with the Father.
5. There is nothing illicit about 4.

I am now thoroughly bored from repeating myself so I'll let you have the last word.

Non, nein, nope.

I don't think I could have made my position any more clear. Here it is in numbered propositions:

1. Scripture encourages intercessory prayer.
2. The saints enjoy the eternal life that was promised them and are alive with the Father.
3. The saints in heaven pray and worship.
4. We can ask the saints to offer intercessory prayers because they are alive with the Father.
5. There is nothing illicit about 4.

I am now thoroughly bored from repeating myself so I'll let you have the last word.

You claimed that the support fro your position comes from that passage that you took out of context (which is actually about whether the dead are resurrected) about God being "God of the Living" (despite the fact that Deut 18 condemns communication with those who are dead in the flesh).

So your position is inconsistent. If you are saying that it is okay to communicate with those who are dead in the flesh because they are actually alive. Then one of those point that I stated must be true of your beliefs. Otherwise you are presenting a contradictory position.

If you are saying that it is okay to communicate with those who are dead in the flesh because they are actually alive. Then one of those point that I stated must be true of your beliefs. Otherwise you are presenting a contradictory position.
Okay, please let's wrestle with that idea a bit. Friday my 95 y/o aunt-in-law died in her sleep. She, to all appearances, was a Christian. Let's go with the idea that she truly died in the Lord. Her body will be buried on Monday and will lie underground in a casket until the Last Day. On that Day, the Bible says her body will be reunited with her soul (spirit).

My questions to you: Where do our souls go at death, and where do they reside until the Last Day?

Okay, please let's wrestle with that idea a bit. Friday my 95 y/o aunt-in-law died in her sleep. She, to all appearances, was a Christian. Let's go with the idea that she truly died in the Lord. Her body will be buried on Monday and will lie underground in a casket until the Last Day. On that Day, the Bible says her body will be reunited with her soul (spirit).

My questions to you: Where do our souls go at death, and where do they reside until the Last Day?

We see a fair amount in scripture, for example:

Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
NKJV

I'd say that it is safe to say that those who are in Christ are in heaven.

I'd say that it is safe to say that those who are in Christ are in heaven.
Thank you. I agree.

Now (just humor me here), why shouldn't we pray to (converse with? Talk to?) those loved ones who are in heaven?

Thank you. I agree.

Now (just humor me here), why shouldn't we pray to (converse with? talk to?) those loved ones who are in heaven?

Several reasons that come to mind immediately:

1) If we are seeking something from God, why go to a fellow subject of the king to ask, when we have an invitation to go directly to the throne of the king anytime?

2) There is no indication in scripture that they know what is going on here (I suspect that they are too caught up in the glory of God to wonder what is happening here. Further, I also suspect that time does not proceed these as it does here.

3) If Satan can deceive even the elect by masquerading as an angel of light, then how much easier it would be for him or his demons to masquerade as one of our loved ones and mislead us further into false occultic practices.

4) Scripture forbids it.

5) We find absolutely no endorsement of it in scripture, nor any positive examples.

6) We have one example of communication with a dead saint (Samuel) and that did not go well for the person who initiated the discussion.

7) We have one example of a dead person who wanted to communicate with a living person and was denied (Luke 16:27)

8) Prayer is a form of worship belong only to God.

Give me some time and I am sure that there are a number of others. The one thing that I cannot think of is any good reason to pray to a dead saint, or a dead loved one, other than personal desire to talk with them again. But that is a man-centered, not a God-centered desire.

Akoue,
That IS a good question.
Fred

So this question has spread to 9 pages of arguments for and against. There seem to be a great division on what the scriptures say. Many seem to be trying to argue a point of religious teaching that is propagated by some long dead leader who may or may not have been right. So far there is no scriptural argument in favor of praying to the dead theory except those teachings put forth by religious leaders. The same arguments are rehashed time and again. Maybe it is time to agree to disagree and close this thread?

So this question has spread to 9 pages of arguments for and against. There seem to be a great division on what the scriptures say. Many seem to be trying to argue a point of religious teaching that is propagated by some long dead leader who may or may not have been right. So far there is no scriptural argument in favor of praying to the dead theory except those teachings put forth by religious leaders. The same arguments are rehashed time and again. Maybe it is time to agree to disagree and close this thread?

You hot the nail on the head. The two sides have two different standards of truth. One side depends upon their denominational teachings, The other bases their position on scripture. Until we can agree on a comon basis of understanding, there is no hope of coming to a common position.

As a result, I agree that the thread might as well be closed.

450donn ,
I think you are right that it isd time to agree to diagree.
But...
I think that when Scripture says we should pray for each other it means not matter where we are, on earth or in heaven.
I know that when I get to heaven I WILL pray for all those whom I know and whom I love also for anyone who asks me to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

450donn ,
I think you are right that it isd time to agree to diagree.
But....
I think that when Scripture says we should pray for each other it means not matter where we are, on earth or in heaven.
I know that when I get to heaven I WILL pray for all those whom I know and whom I love also for anyone who asks me to.


The difference is, Fred, when we try to communicate with the dead, which is prohibited in scripture.

Tj3,
I do not try to communicate with the dead.
The saints in heaven are alive, much more than you and I are.
Jesus said they are. I believe what Jesus says.

Tj3,
I do not try to communicate with the dead.
The saints in heaven are alive, much more than you and I are.
Jesus said they are. I believe what Jesus says.

Fred, the word means "dead in the flesh".

If it meant what you claim, then there would have been no need for God to prohibit speaking to the dead.

Fred, the word means "dead in the flesh".

If it meant what you claim, then there would have been no need for God to prohibit speaking to the dead.
My paternal grandfather died in 1967. He lived his faith. His body is buried in a cemetery in suburban Chicago. His spirit, soul, the essence of him is where?

My paternal grandfather died in 1967. He lived his faith. His body is buried in a cemetery in suburban Chicago. His spirit, soul, the essence of him is where?

I do not like dealing with individuals because I do not know the person and I do not know the hearts of the individuals. I only know what scripture says which is that those who die in Christ are with the Lord.

Tj3,
Sorry, I do not agree with you.
I believe in the communion of saints both here and in heaven none of whom are dead.
Fred.

Tj3,
Sorry, I do not agree with you.
I believe in the communion of saints both here and in heaven none of whom are dead.
Fred.

No one said anything about communion of the saints. But I find it interesting that you believe that no one ever dies in the flesh. Try speaking to some doctors, funeral homes, other in fact - anyone.

Tj3,
I never said or inferred that no one ever dies.
Quit twisting what I say.
That is one of your BAD habits.
Fred

Tj3,
I never said or inferred that no one ever dies.
Quit twisting what I say.
That is one of your BAD habits.
Fred

Well, we are talking about those who are dead in the flesh, and you responded by saying that no one in heaven is dead, thus that must logically mean that you are saying that no one in heaven is dead in the flesh - so?

I do not like dealing with individuals because I do not know the person and I do not know the hearts of the individuals. I only know what scripture says which is that those who die in Christ are with the Lord.
Okay then. You didn't know my grandfather, so let's use you instead (since you know your own heart). You die in a car accident tomorrow. You die in Christ. Your dead body will be buried or cremated. We know your body is then beyond any means of communication. Where is the essence of Tom, his soul, his spirit?

Okay then. You didn't know my grandfather, so let's use you instead (since you know your own heart). You die in a car accident tomorrow. You die in Christ. Your dead body will be buried or cremated. Where is the essence of Tom, his soul, his spirit?

Heaven.

Heaven.
What condition are you in? Asleep? Awake?

What condition are you in? Asleep? Awake?

Awake.

Are you busy?

Tj3,
Your logic escapes me.
A saint who's body dies goes to heave and he/she is alive there more so that any mortal is.
That is what I believe.
Those are the ones I have asked to pray to the Lord our God for me or others.
If I get there before you do I'll pray to God for you.
Fred

Tj3,
Your logic escapes me.
A saint who's body dies goes to heave and he/she is alive there more so that any mortal is.
That is what I believe.
Those are the ones I have asked to pray to the Lord our God for me or others.
If I get there before you do I'll pray to God for you.
Fred
What will you pray that God will do for Tom?

Wondergirl,
I will pray for the help God knows Tom needs.
God knows what each one of us needs.
Sometime we get some help with that, other times not.
So it is a good thing to pray for.
In my case I'm sure that God knows what I really need better than I do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You won't be too busy with other important work, Fred? You'll still set aside time for prayer?

Wondergirl,
That is if God so wills.
I think that God' attitude about praying for people on earth would be very good.
After all He sent Hid Son to be with us and die for us.
That's a lot of love.
Fred

Tj3,
Your logic escapes me.
A saint who's body dies goes to heave and he/she is alive there more so that any mortal is.
That is what I believe.
Those are the ones I have asked to pray to the Lord our God for me or others.
If I get there before you do I'll pray to God for you.
Fred

Fred
How then do you resolve Lk24:39? See my hands and my feet, that it is myself; touch me and see for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.
Or Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and is sharper than any two edged sword and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow and able to judge th3e thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Lv19:31 do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am your Lord your God. Lv20:27 Now a man or woman who is a medium or spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones and their bloodguiltiness is upon them. Lk11:2 Father, Hallowed be your name, Your kingdom come.

Are we not taught by the Lord that any attempts at contact with the spirit world is Satanism? So how can your unfounded arguments be anything but a veiled attempt to communicate with the dead. Heck, you might as well go to a medium and spend your money!

Tj3,
Your logic escapes me.
A saint who's body dies goes to heave and he/she is alive there more so that any mortal is.

Fred,

You are not staying focused. Even Akoue agreed "necro" from the word necromancer refers to dead flesh, thus the question is whether those in heaven are dead in the flesh.

Fred,

You are not staying focused. Even Akoue agreed "necro" from teh word necromancer refers to dead flesh, thus the question is whether those in heaven are dead in the flesh.

Let's not misrepresent what Akoue has said. Akoue said that the ENGLISH word "necrotic" refers to dead tissue. Akoue also said that the GREEK word "nekros" just means dead and that the GREEK verb "nekroo" means to make dead. Akoue has also pointed out that your attempt to read a NT distinction back into Dt 18 is anachronistic.

Fred,

You are not staying focused. Even Akoue agreed "necro" from teh word necromancer refers to dead flesh, thus the question is whether those in heaven are dead in the flesh.
But it doesn't matter, does it, that those in heaven are dead in the flesh. Those souls are alive in Christ (and in heaven). Can those souls pray?

But it doesn't matter, does it, that those in heaven are dead in the flesh. Those souls are alive in Christ (and in heaven). Can those souls pray?

First, Why would you think the dead go to heaven in flesh bodies....

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Scripture is speaking about the departure of the spirit from the flesh body. The flesh body returns to dust of the earth from where it came.... (Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.)

Those spirit that return unto God, we are told not to mess with...nor call upon them.. It is to your own harm and risk to do so.

*************
Scripture says if Christ be in your body while you are here in the flesh (meaning you have faith and walk in Christ) then your your body is dead to sin ( because you are buried in Christ when baptized)
Yet know the spirit within the flesh is life because of the obedience in righteousness you will follow.. (Romans 8:10)

First, Why would you think the dead go to heaven in flesh bodies....
I don't. You totally missed my point. Please read the entire section of this thread.

450donn.
I am not contacting the OCCULT spirit world but the world of God AND HIS SAINTS.
There is a difference.
Yes God the Father and the Holy Spirit are spirits but are you saying that Jesus says not to contact them in that passage?
I think not.
There is a big difference between the spirits in heaven and the spirits of hell.
Don't you agree?
Fred

NONE of which are we suppose to contact. I have given you numerous scriptures to support this position, and you have not given one in support of it. How come?

Let's not misrepresent what Akoue has said. Akoue said that the ENGLISH word "necrotic" refers to dead tissue. Akoue also said that the GREEK word "nekros" just means dead and that the GREEK verb "nekroo" means to make dead.

Akoue is wrong then.

Nekros - Greek Lexicon (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3498)

properly

1. one that has breathed his last, lifeless
2. deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
3. destitute of life, without life, inanimate

Also note:

Word Origin: from an apparently primary nekus (a corpse)


Akoue has also pointed out that your attempt to read a NT distinction back into Dt 18 is anachronistic.

Akoue made a claim which has not been validated.

But it doesn't matter, does it, that those in heaven are dead in the flesh. Those souls are alive in Christ (and in heaven). Can those souls pray?

It does matter whether they are dead in the flesh since the Bible prohibits speaking to those who are dead in the flesh without differentiating whether they are saved or unsaved.

Whether those souls can pray is not the question. The question is whether we should be praying to them.

450donn.
I am not contacting the OCCULT spirit world but the world of God AND HIS SAINTS.
There is a difference.
Yes God the Father and the Holy Spirit are spirits but are you saying that Jesus says not to contact them in that passage?
I think not.
There is a big difference between the spirits in heaven and the spirits of hell.
Don't you agree?
Fred

Fred,

There is a difference between bad and good spirits.. yet the fact still remains that we are not to call to the spirit world (plural) as you have mentioned. We are told to prayer to The Father, call upon Him. He is near.... He has come forth to us.... it is His arms he says you should trust.... Hearken unto me, if you understand righteousness... His children know His law...

How do people turn their backs on His Will, and decide they will pray to saints? It is like asking someone else for the salt on the dinner table, yet the Father sits right next to them holding the salt.

The truth is that God will reveal unto anyone who follows Him. Those who deny themselves, who affirm that one has no acquaintance or connection with someone other then Him to follow. (Matthew 16:24)

I see that many have chosen to follow man instead..

Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

Israel 51:5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
Israel 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

450donn.
I am not contacting the OCCULT spirit world but the world of God AND HIS SAINTS.

At least that is who you are TRYING to contact. But since scripture prohibits this, why do you think that you would be able to do so? There is only one case in scripture of anyone contacting a dead saint and that did not go well for the person who initiated that contact.

NONE of which are we suppose to contact. I have given you numerous scriptures to support this position, and you have not given one in support of it. How come?

Exactly.

Where is the exhortation in scripture to pray to the dead (or to pray to anyone other than God for that matter)?

Where is scripture do we see anyone praying to a dead saint?

It does matter whether they are dead in the flesh since the Bible prohibits speaking to those who are dead in the flesh without differentiating whether they are saved or unsaved.

Whether those souls can pray is not the question. The question is whether we should be praying to them.


True as spoken...And the answer is NO

Exactly.

Where is the exhortation in scripture to pray to the dead (or to pray to anyone other than God for that matter)?

Where is scripture do we see anyone praying to a dead saint?


Where do you find it to ask other church members to pray for you.
Prayer circle, prayer lists, phone chains for prayer and more.

So why not include those that have gone ahead, are they also not part of the "Church"

Where is scripture do we see anyone praying to a dead saint?
You've already indicated their spirits are alive.

How about conducting a conversation with them?

Where do you find it to ask other church members to pray for you.
prayer circle, prayer lists, phone chains for prayer and more.

So why not include those that have gone ahead, are they also not part of the "Church"

For a number of reasons which I posted previously, but not the least of which is God's prohibition of speaking to those who are dead in the flesh.

Exactly.

Where is the exhortation in scripture to pray to the dead (or to pray to anyone other than God for that matter)?

Where is scripture do we see anyone praying to a dead saint?

The exhortation: “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2Macc 12:46)

JoeT

The exhortation: “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2Macc 12:46)

JoeT

Maccabees is not scripture and internally denies being an inspired work.

Maccabees is not scripture and internally denies being an inspired work.

Is that the best you can do? Do you deny the existence of any book in the bible that doesn’t support your private theology? Should we get rid of James too, it's known to be Catholic you know?

JoeT

Is that the best you can do? Do you deny the existence of any book in the bible that doesn’t support your private theology? Should we get rid of James too, it's known to be Catholic you know?

JoeT
Maccabees isn't in the Bible used by non-Catholic Christians.

Is that the best you can do? Do you deny the existence of any book in the bible that doesn’t support your private theology?

That argument does not hold water. If a book denies that it is inspired, why would I want to accept it as scripture?


Should we get rid of James too, it's known to be Catholic you know?

James was accepted as scripture before your denomination existed.

Where is the exhortation in scripture to pray to the dead (or to pray to anyone other than God for that matter)?

Where is scripture do we see anyone praying to a dead saint?

The exhortation: “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2Macc 12:46)

JoeT

Joe the question of this thread is not whether we pray for the dead.... So let's please try and stay on thread..


Several denominations believe that it is OK (and even encouraged) to ask Saints to pray for us.
Fred

Fred's question suggest that it is ok to pray to the dead.....


This has flip flopped on different post like a hooked fish on a line..

Joe the question of this thread is not whether we pray for the dead.... So let's please try and stay on thread..



Fred's question suggest that it is ok to pray to the dead.....


This has flip flopped on different post like a hooked fish on a line..

Well you got me on that one, touché.

But, I'll leave with this:Luther used Maccabees before the schism. Why did he turn his back on it? Could it be that Maccabees was taking money for indulgences too?

JoeT

But, I'll leave with this:Luther used Maccabees before the schism. Why did he turn his back on it? Could it be that Maccabees was taking money for indulgences too?


Three comments on this:

1) Prior to that, he was a priest in your denomination.
2) He came to the conclusion that we should follow God's word rather than man - why should I now follow the word of men? Like any other man, Luther could make mistakes also.
3) He probably turned his back on it because it was not scriptural.

Three comments on this:

1) Prior to that, he was a priest in your denomination.
2) He came to the conclusion that we should follow God's word rather than man - why should I now follow the word of men? Like any other man, Luther could make mistakes also.
3) He probably turned his back on it because it was not scriptural.
1) He was a monk, not a priest. Different animal.
2) Yes, he did.
3) Yes, that is exactly what happened.

1) He was a monk, not a priest. Different animal.

Not necessarily a different animal:

----------------------------------------------------------
Martin Luther (1483 – 1546) founded Protestantism, one of the major movements within Christianity. He was a German monk, theologian, university professor, priest, and church reformer whose ideas started the Protestant Reformation and changed the course of Western civilization.
Martin Luther - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther)
----------------------------------------------------------

Should we get rid of James too, it's known to be Catholic you know?
Dad's an alcoholic. Let's get rid of him. Mom's not, but let's get rid of her too.

Not necessarily a different animal:

----------------------------------------------------------
Martin Luther (1483 – 1546) founded Protestantism, one of the major movements within Christianity. He was a German monk, theologian, university professor, priest, and church reformer whose ideas started the Protestant Reformation and changed the course of Western civilization.
Martin Luther - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther)
----------------------------------------------------------
I apologize -- forgot that role he took on -- from confessingreader.wordpress.com --
"In 1514 he became preacher in the parish church, whose pulpit became the center of a long and fruitful preaching ministry in which Luther expounded profoundly and beautifully the Scriptures for the common people and related them to the practical context of their lives."

I apologize -- forgot that role he took on -- from confessingreader.wordpress.com --
"In 1514 he became preacher in the parish church, whose pulpit became the center of a long and fruitful preaching ministry in which Luther expounded profoundly and beautifully the Scriptures for the common people and related them to the practical context of their lives."


I’d suggest from priest to propagandist.

JoeT

I’d suggest from priest to propagandist.
Naw. He loved the Catholic Church, but was excommunicated. TPTB didn't love him. And it all could have ended so differently had politics not been involved. At least the Lutheran Church has kept much from its mother church.

Naw. He loved the Catholic Church, but was excommunicated. TPTB didn't love him. And it all could have ended so differently had politics not been involved. At least the Lutheran Church has kept much from its mother church.

The same is true for Calvin. Both wanted to reform the Roman catholic Church from within, but, as you say, TPTB showed that was not possible.

Where do you find it to ask other church members to pray for you.
prayer circle, prayer lists, phone chains for prayer and more.

So why not include those that have gone ahead, are they also not part of the "Church"

Chuck,
Look at James 5:16. Luke 22:32, for your answer.

Several denominations believe that it is OK (and even encouraged) to ask Saints to pray for us.
:confused:So, what biblical evidence is there for that? :confused:
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

Hi Fred,

Sorry I missed this discussion. Seems as though it was interesting.

Praying to the Saints comes from the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints which is based on the teaching of the Church as the body of Christ:

Romans 12:5
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

As we know, anyone who is joined to Christ has received eternal life. Therefore, all saints are alive and communicating with one another.

1 Corinthians 12:25
That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

There is no such thing as a dead saint. That is an oxymoron.

Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is confirmed by Jesus when He says:
Luke 20:38
For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

And we see a clear example of one saint praying to another in Luke 15:
Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Scripture also says:
Matthew 10:41
He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

Thereby showing that we can pray in the name of righteous men and prophets which generally compose the roles of the saints.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria,

I find it interesting how you conveniently ignored the fact that all of these references are to those alive in the flesh, and ignored the prohibition that God gave against speaking with those who are dead in the flesh.

Scripture also says:
Matthew 10:41
He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.



DeMaria,

The scripture you have referenced in quote is directed as instruction against denying someone to speak as a prophet. He that recieves one who comes in the name of the Lord recieves a prophet's reward. WHEN YOU HEAR THE WORD AND ACCEPT IT THERE IS REWARD.

The opposite would be noted in Jeremiah
Jeremiah 11:21 Therefore thus saith the LORD of the men of Anathoth, that seek thy life, saying, Prophesy not in the name of the LORD, that thou die not by our hand:




Thereby showing that we can pray in the name of righteous men and prophets which generally compose the roles of the saints


If one prays in the name of righteous men and prophets other then Christ, they would be denying Christ and the glory of Our Father..

Christ said to ask in His name, so that the Father is glorified. (John 14:11)

Deny them self and follow me (to affirm that one has no acquaintance or connection with someone other then Christ) Matthew 16:24 Mark 8:34 Luke 9: 23

And we see a clear example of one saint praying to another in Luke 15:
Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Sincerely,

This teaching was intended awareness about the Pharisees who were turning up their nose, to sneer, and scoff at Christ. (Luke 16:14) The Pharisees were trying to justify themselves before men, and would use the same method of conversation that Christ used against them. An imaginary Father Abraham cried to, being the method in which to example the intended concluded story.

What we can conclude in the teaching was that we are offered every word of help through all that was already heard of Moses and the prophets. And that one raised from the dead would not be accepted..

If we can't see and hear what Christ has given to us, then we are not one with Him... It is His ways, and His exmaple that we are to follow. Christ taught us how to pray...

~in Christ

There is no such thing as a dead saint. That is an oxymoron.

Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This references to both the spiritual world and earthly world being joined and connected through Christ.

Rightful we live through Christ who freed us from sin, and as servants we live unto God our Father within His house. We must do the will of God and what is pleasing in HIs eye.

Dead and buried in Christ Jesus so that we may raise just as He did. Dead to this world of sin, because we walk in Him,(righteously) and He is in us.(righteousness)
Be ye holy for He is Holy (I Peter 1:16)

Romans 6:7-8 For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Romans 6: 9-10 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Verse 11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.




This is confirmed by Jesus when He says:
Luke 20:38
For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
,

Rightfully so when we are His... when we do the will of God... when we follow... when we stay in the light.... Open ears and open eyes to see Christ is the Way..

Nothing here would say anything other then Christ being the way... Nothing saying that we should pray to saints.

Everything saying if we believe in Christ we hold stedfast in faith of HIM and sight of God our Father. And we pray to God for all, and pray to HIM in mentioning of brothers or sisters.

I Th 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

I Th 1:3-4 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

,

Praying to the Saints comes from the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints which is based on the teaching of the Church as the body of Christ:

Romans 12:5
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

As we know, anyone who is joined to Christ has received eternal life. Therefore, all saints are alive and communicating with one another.

,

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

It is the Will of God that we be acceptable, proven of good, transformed in our mind to being perfect in the eyes of God. Therefore being many, we all are several that do walk as one in Christ, yet all do not have the same office (Romans 12:4)

The concluded message of this teaching for all is not to live after the flesh, but through the Spirit within us. (Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. )

if anyone is calling upon spirits... The idea of communication with the spiritual world is against the will of God... And I do mean spirits other then the spirit of God, the elected ONE.

De Maria,

I find it interesting how you conveniently ignored the fact that all of these references are to those alive in the flesh, and ignored the prohibition that God gave against speaking with those who are dead in the flesh.

Do you deny that a saint is one who is alive in Christ?

Do you also deny that one who is not a saint is dead in his sins?

DeMaria,

Hi sndbay,

I've read all the posts you've addressed to me and it seems there are a few themes with which we disagree or interpret differently.

We agree with prayer of course. What we seem to have a difference of opinion what constitutes prayer.

This probably stems from a difference in our definition of the word prayer.

To a Catholic many actions are prayers. If I ask you to pray for me. That request which I have addressed to you is a prayer. Why? Because prayer means request. Therefore, my requesting a prayer of you is my offering up a prayer in your name.

This is from Scripture:
Judith 8 33 But I desire that you search not into what I am doing, and till I bring you word let nothing else be done but to pray for me to the Lord our God.

3 Kings 13 6 And the king said to the man of God: Entreat the face of the Lord thy God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored to me. And the man of God besought the face of the Lord, and the king's hand was restored to him, and it became as it was before.

Why do I feel comfortable asking you to pray for me? Well, because I believe you are one of the saints who has given her life to Christ and are therefore part of the body of Christ. Therefore, I feel comfortable asking any Christian to pray for me. Whether that Christian be alive on earth or alive in heaven.

I wouldn't ask Charles Manson for prayer, nor Adolf Hitler.

Though Charles Manson is alive in the flesh, he is, in my opinion, an unrepentant sinner and dead in his sins.

And Adolf Hitler, unless he had a deathbed conversion, is dead, both in the flesh and in his sins.

So, I would not ask prayer of them. Because the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. But God does not listen to the prayer of those who are dead in their sins:

John 9 31 Now we know that God doth not hear sinners: but if a man be a server of God, and doth his will, him he heareth.

The only way you could have trouble with this doctrine is if you believe that the saints die. Do you? Yet Scripture says:

1 John 5 13 These things I write to you, that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

So, tell me, do you believe that the Saints die?

1 Corinthians 15 18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ, are perished.19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep:


The scripture you have referenced in quote is directed as instruction against denying someone to speak as a prophet. He that recieves one who comes in the name of the Lord recieves a prophet's reward. WHEN YOU HEAR THE WORD AND ACCEPT IT THERE IS REWARD.

The opposite would be noted in Jeremiah
Jeremiah 11:21 Therefore thus saith the LORD of the men of Anathoth, that seek thy life, saying, Prophesy not in the name of the LORD, that thou die not by our hand:

We believe everything we do is a prayer. Therefore, our offering a cup in the name of a prophet is our offering a cup in the name of a member of the body of Christ. Because every Saint is a member of the body of Christ. Therefore when we pray in the name of a Saint, we pray in the name of Christ Jesus:

Galatians 2 20 And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me.

Galatians 3 27 For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.


If one prays in the name of righteous men and prophets other then Christ, they would be denying Christ and the glory of Our Father..

You act as though anyone can separate us from Christ?
Romans 8 35 Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? Or distress? Or famine? Or nakedness? Or danger? Or persecution? Or the sword?

If we persevere in Christ, we will live in Christ forevermore. The Saints are members of the body of Christ on this earth and in the next life. If we pray in the name of a Saint we pray in Christ's name whom they are in.


Christ said to ask in His name, so that the Father is glorified. (John 14:11)

Deny them self and follow me (to affirm that one has no acquaintance or connection with someone other then Christ) Matthew 16:24 Mark 8:34 Luke 9: 23

1 Corinthians 4 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.

Sincerely,

This teaching was intended awareness about the Pharisees who were turning up their nose, to sneer, and scoff at Christ. (Luke 16:14) The Pharisees were trying to justify themselves before men, and would use the same method of conversation that Christ used against them. An imaginary Father Abraham cried to, being the method in which to example the intended concluded story.

What we can conclude in the teaching was that we are offered every word of help through all that was already heard of Moses and the prophets. And that one raised from the dead would not be accepted..

If we can't see and hear what Christ has given to us, then we are not one with Him... It is His ways, and His exmaple that we are to follow. Christ taught us how to pray...

~in Christ

Where did you get "imaginary"? You do believe that Abraham exists in heaven and is the Patriarch of the Old Testament right?

So lets get past this imaginary business. If Abraham is real, then Jesus if giving us an example of conversations that are possible in the after life. Jesus is giving us insight into what happens after we die.

This is something only He can provide because He came from heaven:
John 6 38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this statement, not parable, not imaginary story, but statement of fact recounts how the saints relate with each other in heaven.

And these are some of the insights we can garner from this account:

1. Though the saints have died in the flesh they are alive in the spirit.
2. Not only are they alive but they are aware.
3. Not only are they aware but they communicate with each other.
4. Not only can they communicate with each other but they can influence and help each other.
5. Not only can they influence and help each other but they can influence and help us on earth.

This references to both the spiritual world and earthly world being joined and connected through Christ.

Rightful we live through Christ who freed us from sin, and as servants we live unto God our Father within His house. We must do the will of God and what is pleasing in HIs eye.

Dead and buried in Christ Jesus so that we may raise just as He did. Dead to this world of sin, because we walk in Him,(righteously) and He is in us.(righteousness)
Be ye holy for He is Holy (I Peter 1:16)

Romans 6:7-8 For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Romans 6: 9-10 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Verse 11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It seems that you agree that a Christian who has died is alive in Christ. So what is the problem?


Rightfully so when we are His... when we do the will of God... when we follow... when we stay in the light.... Open ears and open eyes to see Christ is the Way..

Nothing here would say anything other then Christ being the way... Nothing saying that we should pray to saints.

Does it say we shouldn't ask the saints to pray for us?


Everything saying if we believe in Christ we hold stedfast in faith of HIM and sight of God our Father. And we pray to God for all, and pray to HIM in mentioning of brothers or sisters.

I Th 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

I Th 1:3-4 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

This still confirms that we are all the body of Christ. That we are not separated from Christ even by death. And that the saints therefore live in Christ.

So, why do you act as though they have perished?

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

It is the Will of God that we be acceptable, proven of good, transformed in our mind to being perfect in the eyes of God. Therefore being many, we all are several that do walk as one in Christ, yet all do not have the same office (Romans 12:4)

The concluded message of this teaching for all is not to live after the flesh, but through the Spirit within us. (Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. )

if anyone is calling upon spirits... The idea of communication with the spiritual world is against the will of God... And I do mean spirits other then the spirit of God, the elected ONE.

You are wrong. Communication with spirits through mediums of satan are prohibited.
Communication to evil spirits, satan and his demons, is abominable in the eyes of God.

But we are supposed to communicate to God, the Holy Spirit, through any medium which He has provided for us. Christ is that medium. The Church which is His body is that medium. His Saints which are His members are that medium.

John 4 24 God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.

Do you deny that a saint is one who is alive in Christ?

Do you also deny that one who is not a saint is dead in his sins?

I would deny that a saint who has died in the flesh is alive in the flesh and that is the point.

You cannot alter scripture to say what you want it to say when it disagrees with your theological system

Hi sndbay,

To a Catholic many actions are prayers. If I ask you to pray for me. That request which I have addressed to you is a prayer. Why? Because prayer means request. Therefore, my requesting a prayer of you is my offering up a prayer in your name. Why do I feel comfortable asking you to pray for me? Well, because I believe you are one of the saints who has given her life to Christ and are therefore part of the body of Christ.

Hi De Maria,

Prayer to the Father whether in gathering of people, or private... I feel we do no agree entirely... And the reason is that I feel comforatable when we are praying for one another, or for others of the bodily flesh that walk this earth. Praying is a righeous act of faith and belief in God. It establishes love and trust as the unity between servant and master. And any request in praying for another, is a fulfillment in brother or sisterly love.



Whether that Christian be alive on earth or alive in heaven.

Praying to saints whether to mean the spiritual saint or the angel saint, I feel it comes into the line of joining like the charmer.
Or consulter of communication,and favors with familiar spirits is a dangerous step toward an abomination unto the Lord.

Deu 18:10-11There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.



The only way you could have trouble with this doctrine is if you believe that the saints die. Do you? Yet Scripture says:

1 John 5 13 These things I write to you, that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

So, tell me, do you believe that the Saints die?

Clearly saint as you have mentions are absence from the flesh body and present with the Lord. They have returned to the spirit form. A living spiritual soul... Saints on earth within the flesh body I have referenced earlier. Dead of this world in Christ....

This does not confirm or suppose communicate with saints that are in spiritual souls.

You are wrong. Communication with spirits through mediums of satan are prohibited.
Communication to evil spirits, satan and his demons, is abominable in the eyes of God.

But we are supposed to communicate to God, the Holy Spirit, through any medium which He has provided for us. Christ is that medium. The Church which is His body is that medium. His Saints which are His members are that medium.

John 4 24 God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.

So again what would your intended reason be? Christ is the the principle power and He too is the communication medium to the Father, why would you leave Christ?

Where did you get "imaginary"?

The word is my choice in descripion of the Pharisees, who with their own teaching methods made up in their minds the teaching in which Christ rebuked. The Pharisees would use Abraham to justify their means of teaching.



So lets get past this imaginary business. If Abraham is real, then Jesus if giving us an example of conversations that are possible in the after life. Jesus is giving us insight into what happens after we die.

YES



This is something only He can provide because He came from heaven:
John 6 38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

YES



And this statement, not parable, not imaginary story, but statement of fact recounts how the saints relate with each other in heaven.

And these are some of the insights we can garner from this account:

1. Though the saints have died in the flesh they are alive in the spirit.
YES



2. Not only are they alive but they are aware. YES



3. Not only are they aware but they communicate with each other. YES



4. Not only can they communicate with each other but they can influence and help each other.
NO... No one gave him a drink, and scripture instead shows the intention being denied for sending help to his brothers.. For the reason known to us, that we all hold stedfast in The Word being all..
(Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.)

NOTE: We have to see that a period of time after this teaching, it was Christ who raised from the dead. It is He that is the answer to the plea of help .. A much better chosen One, then what Lazarus would be..




5. Not only can they influence and help each other but they can influence and help us on earth.

NO ... And in fact the scriptures go on to state that the disciple knew "It is possible... that the offence will come: but woe unto him through whom it comes!"

The offence they speak of is to make someone believe they can rely on anyone other then Christ..

I would deny that a saint who has died in the flesh is alive in the flesh and that is the point.
But he is alive in spirit -- and can hear us?

So again what would your intended reason be?

To ensure that God listens to my prayer. We believe that God listens to holy people. Who is more holy than they who have been perfected?

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Christ is the the principle power and He too is the communication medium to the Father, why would you leave Christ?

Nothing separates us from Christ. The Saints are alive in Christ. Communication with the saints is to communicate with Christ through the Saints.

I would deny that a saint who has died in the flesh is alive in the flesh and that is the point.

Do you deny that a saint who has died in the flesh is yet alive in the spirit?


You cannot alter scripture to say what you want it to say when it disagrees with your theological system

Where did I alter Scripture?

But he is alive in spirit -- and can hear us?

Apparently Abraham was aware of the Rich Man's doings on earth:
Luke 16:25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And Hebrews 12 says that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.
Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Revelations says that the souls of the martyrs are aware of the events on earth.
Revelation 6:8-10 (King James Version)

8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

So, I would say that, yes, they can hear us.

I'm happy to see that we agree on so much although I have focused on what we disagree.


NO... No one gave him a drink, and scripture instead shows the intention being denied for sending help to his brothers.. For the reason known to us, that we all hold stedfast in The Word being all..
(Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.)

NOTE: We have to see that a period of time after this teaching, it was Christ who raised from the dead. It is He that is the answer to the plea of help .. A much better chosen One, then what Lazarus would be..

The point is that the prayers were answered. Unexpectedly so, but that is how God works. How many times have I prayed and found my prayer answered in a manner which I didn't conceive? Do you know what I'm talking about?


NO ... And in fact the scriptures go on to state that the disciple knew "It is possible... that the offence will come: but woe unto him through whom it comes!"

The offence they speak of is to make someone believe they can rely on anyone other then Christ..

I don't understand the connection that you are making. Jesus is saying that praying to Saints is an offense. He is warning against one brother offending another and leading him astray.

Do you deny that a saint who has died in the flesh is yet alive in the spirit?

That is not the point. It does no matter when scripture is clear that we are not to communicate with those who are dead in the flesh.

That is not the point. It does no matter when scripture is clear that we are not to communicate with those who are dead in the flesh.

Show me.

Wondergirl,
Yes, the perfected saints in heaven can hear us for they are in Christ Jesus who can hear us through them.
I believe that the more people we can have pray for us the better.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Show me.

Deut 18:9-14
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God.
NKJV

Wondergirl,
Yes, the perfected saints in heaven can hear us for they are in Christ Jesus who can hear us through them.

You can believe it, but show us in scripture where it says that we are to speak to the dead.

Tj3,
There is no place I know of in Scripture that says we should speak to or with the dead.
That is why I speak to and with the living.
Fred

Tj3,
There is no place I know of in Scripture that says we should speak to or with the dead.
That is why I speak to and with the living.
Fred

Good! So you only speak to those humans who are alive in the flesh. That is good.

Tj3,
Correction I speak to those people who are alive.
Fred

Tj3,
Correction I speak to those people who are alive.
Fred

Scripture prohibits communication with those dead in the flesh (I wonder why certain folk don't see that reference to dead in the flesh :D )

Tj3,
Does that mean that you do not believe that people in heaven are not alive?
As I recall Scripture Jesus ascended into heaven with His body.
I talk with Jesus now don't you?
Fred

Tj3,
Does that mean that you do not believe that people in heaven are not alive?
As I recall Scripture Jesus ascended into heaven with His body.
I talk with Jesus now don't you?
Fred
Like I've said before, our finite minds cannot grasp being outside of Time. After we die, we become part of Eternity, the Eternal Now. The Bible says that after death is the judgment, so all who have died have been judged already and have been reunited with their bodies ("I shall see God in mine own flesh." Job 19:26) and are enjoying heavenly bliss (or not).

Wondergirl,
Point well made.
Thanks,
Fred

I'm happy to see that we agree on so much although I have focused on what we disagree.

The point is that the prayers were answered. Unexpectedly so, but that is how God works. How many times have I prayed and found my prayer answered in a manner which I didn't conceive? Do you know what I'm talking about?

No... the point being that God has ordained His plan from the beginning. God sent His grace in the begotten Son.. Christ the anointed, is the answer to all that confess their belief in Him. He can be the answer to prayer if we rest in Him.




I don't understand the connection that you are making. Jesus is saying that praying to Saints is an offense. He is warning against one brother offending another and leading him astray.

Scripture is saying that man will turn to their imagined ways, and woe to that man who brings any other way then Christ unto man. (Focus on the Will of God... and what he created to be the way.. what He has shown as the way) How did Christ pray? How did Christ tell us to pray?

Wondergirl,
Yes, the perfected saints in heaven can hear us for they are in Christ Jesus who can hear us through them.
I believe that the more people we can have pray for us the better.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred the idea is flawed... because then you are putting faith in other men praying for you...

Rest is complete in Christ... faith in Him alone...


And I am not saying that praying for others is wrong.. it is good to show love unto brothers and sisters .. The convistion of love in the heart is evident in walking in Christ.

Christ will hear those that hear Him... Call on Me for I will answer.

But to hope upon many people praying for you, is the hope of love for yourself...

Tj3,
There is no place I know of in Scripture that says we should speak to or with the dead.
That is why I speak to and with the living.
Fred

Charming to the living spirits?

Like I've said before, our finite minds cannot grasp being outside of Time. After we die, we become part of Eternity, the Eternal Now. The Bible says that after death is the judgment, so all who have died have been judged already and have been reunited with their bodies ("I shall see God in mine own flesh." Job 19:26) and are enjoying heavenly bliss (or not).

Bodies? worms destroy.. Reunited? Nope...

I read where it says your inner most mind... embracing me (heart =flesh/ mind= inner most/ soul=spitit ME)

Job 19:26-27 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh=(all living) shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins=(inner most mind) be consumed=(finished) within=(enbracing) me.

No... the point being that God has ordained His plan from the beginning. God sent His grace in the begotten Son.. Christ the anointed, is the answer to all that confess their belief in Him. He can be the answer to prayer if we rest in Him.

Scripture is saying that man will turn to their imagined ways, and woe to that man who brings any other way then Christ unto man. (Focus on the Will of God... and what he created to be the way.. what He has shown as the way) How did Christ pray? How did Christ tell us to pray?

Our difference then, seems to stem on how closely we believe Christ associates us with Himself.

Matthew 25 (King James Version)

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

We see that Saul persecuted the Church:
1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Yet Jesus did not say, "Saul, why do you persecute my Church" nor "why do you persecute them", but:

Acts 9:4
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Therefore we believe what the Scripture teaches:
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Therefore St. Paul can point to himself and say:
1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Our difference then, seems to stem on how closely we believe Christ associates us with Himself.



Perhaps you are right with this conclusion. Do we both believe in the unity or joining of Christ in us?

In the confess faith in belief of the Son of God?

The SON that walked in His Father and who the Father dwelled in HIM?

The child that through baptism, walks in Christ, and Christ dwells within him and her.

Done through the HOLY SPIRIT that is here with me and in me.. where I rest in holding stedfast as conviction in my heart, mind and soul. Under the hand of God's strength and will, in all that He created me to be.


Romans 8:36-37 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord


Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.



~Compassion of heart, Love for God as a child of God



1 Peter 6:14-15-16 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Perhaps you are right with this conclusion. Do we both believe in the unity or joining of Christ in us?
....~Compassion of heart, Love for God as a child of God

In the end, we must all follow our conscience. If it violates your conscience to pray to God through the intercession of a saint. By all means, don't do so.

As for me, I believe that a Saint's prayer is more efficacious than mine. I believe that Mother Mary's prayers are infinitely more efficacious than mine. Therefore, I will have recourse to the family which God gave me.

In the end, we must all follow our conscience.


Scripture says the conscience mind can be defiled.. My conviction of heart follows Christ Jesus who dwells in me, and I in HIM. Baptized in confession of HIM... HIS worthyness... HIS righteosuness.... that shows the way.

Tts 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.



Hebrew 6:19-20 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

As for me, I believe that a Saint's prayer is more efficacious than mine. I believe that Mother Mary's prayers are infinitely more efficacious than mine. Therefore, I will have recourse to the family which God gave me.

Just one question more.. you see I do not feel others can save you...there is no recourse in your own accountability of faith..

man has come up with recourse by purgatory as well.

Where does the assuredness of Christ step in?

Is this more concluded in doubt that has caused a need for the recourse?

If Christ dwells in you, and you in HIM by the unity in baptism? do you think He would leave you outside the veil?

Just one question more.. you see I do not feel others can save you...

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


there is no recourse in your own accountability of faith..

We don't save anyone ourselves. But in leading them to Christ, we help them be saved:

1 Corinthians 7:16
For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

1 Corinthians 9:22
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.


man has come up with recourse by purgatory as well.

Not man but the mercy of God:
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Where does the assuredness of Christ step in?

We trust in man because we trust in Christ who gave man authority to forgive sin:
John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.


Is this more concluded in doubt that has caused a need for the recourse?

It is concluded in His wisdom which we obey. We don't have recourse to our own interpretations but to the Word of God which was given unto Holy Men, first to preach and teach and then to write:

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


If Christ dwells in you, and you in HIM by the unity in baptism? do you think He would leave you outside the veil?

Even the Apostles asked for our prayers.

Romans 15:30
Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

Did they think they were left outside the veil? Obviously not. But God gave us an economy of Love. Wherein we all care for each other and pray for each other, whether we be alive in the flesh or in the Spirit.

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Why else are we surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. That they might assist spiritually in every way possible. Much more then if we beseech their assistance.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Tj3,
Does that mean that you do not believe that people in heaven are not alive?

I do not believe that those who heaven who died saved have living bodies opf flesh in heaven, no.

Do you?


As I recall Scripture Jesus ascended into heaven with His body.
I talk with Jesus now don't you?
Fred


Jesus is God - do you see a difference there?

I do not believe that those who heaven who died saved have living bodies opf flesh in heaven, no.
Does it matter if they have bodies of flesh? They are alive and are aware (or aren't they?).

Does it matter if they have bodies of flesh? They are alive and are aware (or aren't they?).

Good question. I believe Scripture reveals they are alive and aware. But I await Tom's reply.

Does it matter if they have bodies of flesh? They are alive and are aware (or aren't they?).

It matters because God said it matters.

Is there anyone here who thinks that their authority exceeds God's authority and thus is willing to say that God's condemnation of speaking to those dead in the flesh is not important?

It matters because God said it matters.

Is there anyone here who thinks that their authority exceeds God's authority and thus is willing to say that God's condemnation of speaking to those dead in the flesh is not important?

Where is the condemnation you speak of?

Where is the condemnation you speak of?

I already posted the quote from scripture once (see post #165), and it was posted in response to you at your previous request.

Did you not read it?

Tj3,
Please post it again.
Fred

Tj3,
Please post it again.
Fred

Go to post 165.

Thanks Tom
Fred

Thanks Tom
Fred

You're welcome

Deut 18:9-14
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God.
NKJV

This condemns satanism and witchcraft.

This does not condemn prayer to Saints.

This condemns satanism and witchcraft.

This does not condemn prayer to Saints.

I note your careful wording avoiding the fact that it condemns ALL communication with those who are dead in the flesh.

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

De Maria


Then we would agree that love for God, and love for others, (that includes us) we speak in charity to cover sin.

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.


That in all things being spoken we are edifying faith in Christ.

1 Peter 4:5-6-7 Who shall give account to HIM that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Then we would agree that love for God, and love for others, (that includes us) we speak in charity to cover sin.

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.


That in all things being spoken we are edifying faith in Christ.

1 Peter 4:5-6-7 Who shall give account to HIM that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Amen!

I note your careful wording avoiding the fact that it condemns ALL communication with those who are dead in the flesh.
I do not pray to the saints in heaven, but believe De Maria is correct about this particular verse, that it does not forbid that practice. It forbids black magic and sorcery, but that is not what prayer to the saints is.

Now if a verse said, do not pray to the saints in heaven because they are otherwise employed or because they are asleep until the Last Day, okay then. But this particular verse has nothing to do with saints in heaven.

Wondergirl.
Both you and De Maria are right about that.
It is a big twist of scripture in attempt to interpret that verse in saying something it does not say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl.
Both you and De Maria are right about that.
It is a big twist of scripture in attempt to interpret that verse in saying something it does not say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
It would be like saying that, since Jesus was baptized by immersion in the River Jordan, we too must be immersed in the River Jordan in order to consider ourselves baptized. Or we must at least be immersed. Or we must at least be adults. (Oh, yeah. Tht's been said... )

I do not pray to the saints in heaven, but believe De Maria is correct about this particular verse, that it does not forbid that practice. It forbids black magic and sorcery, but that is not what prayer to the saints is.

He is actually wrong and experts who have examined the text (and you can check the majority of translations to verify what the translators think) have said that the word used in the text means "dead in the flesh", or literally "dead tissue", and refers to communication with the dead. Where is is correct is that over the years, the practice of speaking to the dead has typically been associated with sorcery, but Catholics claim that their speaking to the dead is different.


Now if a verse said, do not pray to the saints in heaven because they are otherwise employed or because they are asleep until the Last Day, okay then. But this particular verse has nothing to do with saints in heaven.

We have one example in scripture of a man who communicated with a saint in heaven and that did not go well for him.

Catholics claim that their speaking to the dead is different.
That's because they don't believe they are speaking to the dead, but to a living soul, which you yourself have confirmed is the truth.

Wondergirl.
Both you and De Maria are right about that.
It is a big twist of scripture in attempt to interpret that verse in saying something it does not say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred ...

The way I walk is in Christ.. Do you find that in error?

When Christ says "call upon Me"... Would you call upon HIM in prayer?

Christ said "Come unto Me" ... Peter doubted (Matthew 14:31) then Peter cried "Lord save me" Christ reached out HIS hand...

The teaching of these words are clear... I do not doubt Christ hears my prayers, because my heart of love belongs to HIM. Christ taught us to pray, and Christ was shown to pray unto the Father.

Is it written that Christ prayed any other way?

Fred ...

The way I walk is in Christ.. Do you find that in error?

When Christ says "call upon Me"... Would you call upon HIM in prayer?

Christ said "Come unto Me" ... Peter doubted (Matthew 14:31) then Peter cried "Lord save me" Christ reached out HIS hand...

The teaching of these words are clear... I do not doubt Christ hears my prayers, because my heart of love belongs to HIM. Christ taught us to pray, and Christ was shown to pray unto the Father.

Is it written that Christ prayed any other way?
What are you trying to say? Of course, Christians (and Catholics who are also Christians) pray to Christ. The entire point of this thread is that, just as Christians ask other Christians (saints) here on earth to pray for them during illnesses or during times of stress, Catholics also ask saints in heaven to do the same.

Fred ...

The way I walk is in Christ.. Do you find that in error?

No.

We don't reject prayer to Christ or to the Father. We simply believe we can ask our brothers in Christ to pray for us wherever they may be.


When Christ says "call upon Me"... Would you call upon HIM in prayer?

We do so regularly.


Christ said "Come unto Me" ... Peter doubted (Matthew 14:31) then Peter cried "Lord save me" Christ reached out HIS hand...

The teaching of these words are clear... I do not doubt Christ hears my prayers, because my heart of love belongs to HIM. Christ taught us to pray, and Christ was shown to pray unto the Father.

Is it written that Christ prayed any other way?

No. But Christ is God. It would seem strange for God to pray for intercession by a mortal. Don't you agree?

Yet even He called upon Mary, His mother for milk and bread. Do you deny that?

And He didn't come to earth to do everything Himself. In His economy, He sent emissaries, the Apostles and disciples to intercede before Him to mankind. Do you deny that?

And He established the Church for this purpose. Do you deny that?

And Scripture says that we should imitate Christ. And Scripture says that Christ is in heaven interceding for us before the Father. And Scripture says what is done in heaven should be done on earth. Do you deny that?

And the word of God praises Mary. Praise is another way in which we communicate with the Saints and to God.

God did not consider it beneath Him to praise Mary in His Word and other Saints as well. Why do so many people consider that it is beneath them to praise the Saints if God Himself has so done?

So, no, we don't condemn the way you pray. We also pray thus.

It is you who have not understood how and why we pray to the Saints as well as to the Holy Trinity.

What are you trying to say? Of course, Christians (and Catholics who are also Christians) pray to Christ. The entire point of this thread is that, just as Christians ask other Christians (saints) here on earth to pray for them during illnesses or during times of stress, Catholics also ask saints in heaven to do the same.

That is it, in a nutshell. Thanks.

Wondergirl,
Right you are again.
The saints in heaven are near to the Throne of God and dear to the Lord for they were of such that followed Him well as attested to by the fact that they are in heaven.
Yes, I ask both the saints here on this planet and in heaven to pray for me and for others including for my country and it's leaders.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

So, no, we don't condemn the way you pray. We also pray thus.

It is you who have not understood how and why we pray to the Saints as well as to the Holy Trinity.


Thank you DeMaria that was what I felt was in question... As we agreed earlier (That in all things being spoken we are edifying faith in Christ. )

That's because they don't believe they are speaking to the dead, but to a living soul, which you yourself have confirmed is the truth.
What matters is not what they believe is okay - a person can be sincere, but sincerely wrong - what matters is what God's word says. I don't think that anyone is under the misconception that those who died in the flesh on earth and alive in the flesh in heaven.

I also note that no one has dealt with the fact that we have only one case in scripture where any person communicated with those who were dead in the flesh in heaven and God pronounced a condemnation on him for that.

We have absolutely nothing in scripture speaking in favour of, or endorsing the practice of, nor providing a positive example of communicating with the dead.

I don't think that anyone is under the misconception that those who died in the flesh on earth and alive in the flesh in heaven.... communicating with the dead.
As you have agreed, there are saints alive as SPIRITS in heaven. No one in any of these threads has said they are alive in the FLESH. Praying to saints in heaven is communicating with saints ALIVE in SPIRIT, not dead in the flesh.

What matters is not what they believe is okay - a person can be sincere, but sincerely wrong - what matters is what God's word says. I don't think that anyone is under the misconception that those who died in the flesh on earth and alive in the flesh in heaven.

I also note that no one has dealt with the fact that we have only one case in scripture where any person communicated with those who were dead in the flesh in heaven and God pronounced a condemnation on him for that.

We have absolutely nothing in scripture speaking in favour of, or endorsing the practice of, nor providing a positive example of communicating with the dead.

Saul resorted to witchcraft.

However, we have the episode of the Mount of Tabor:

Mark 9:4
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

I also note that no one has dealt with the fact that we have only one case in scripture where any person communicated with those who were dead in the flesh in heaven and God pronounced a condemnation on him for that.
.

What are familiar spirits? should not people seek unto the Lord? for the living to the dead?

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? For the living to the dead?


I am not twisting this scripture.. it is written just as I copied it.... can anyone explain this question?

As you have agreed, there are saints alive as SPIRITS in heaven. No one in any of these threads has said they are alive in the FLESH. Praying to saints in heaven is communicating with saints ALIVE in SPIRIT, not dead in the flesh.

That is playing words games. They are either alive in the flesh or dead in the flesh.

Saul resorted to witchcraft.

However, we have the episode of the Mount of Tabor:

Mark 9:4
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

You demonstrate well why it is so important to read the context. Let's see what the verse right before that one says:

Mark 9:2-3
2 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them.
NKJV

Do you know what this means? It means that Jesus was speaking to them while transfigured into His glory as God, not as man. Now, unless you are claiming to be God, this does not apply to you.

As for Saul, you are merely labeling it - I could show you many sources which label speaking to the dead as witchcraft also - without any reservation as to whether the person is or is not saved. If I went out to witness to a witch, or if I had a witch pass on a message for me to someone else, is that a sin because of what she is? No, it is what she is doing that makes it witchcraft. So what was she doing? Calling up the dead, and I might add, a person who was dead in the flesh but saved. So if you definition of "alive" holds, it would be no different than if a witch used a telephone to call you at home.

That is playing words games. They are either alive in the flesh or dead in the flesh.
You told me that, once you are dead in the flesh, you will be alive in spirit in heaven.

You told me that, once you are dead in the flesh, you will be alive in spirit in heaven.

Again, that is irrelevant since the prohibition is against communication with anyone who has died in the flesh.

Word games about them being alive in the spirit will not hold water at the judgment.

I might add that those in hell are still alive in the spirit also, but in torment. So using your approach would simply mean that when God told us not to speak to the dead in the flesh, he really didn't mean anything at all. He was just mistaken. I don't buy that argument - I don't think God called it an abomination though it wasn't important.

Do you know what this means? It means that Jesus was speaking to them
Yup. I think the point was that dead-in-the-flesh Moses was speaking and being spoken to by Jesus.

What are familiar spirits? should not people seek unto the Lord? for the living to the dead?

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?


I am not twisting this scripture.. it is written just as I copied it.... can anyone explain this question?

Right. Nowhere in scripture will we find anything exhorting us to speak to those who died in the flesh. Only condemnation of that and similar practices.

Again, that is irrelevant since the prohibition is against communication with anyone who has died in the flesh.
That's your interpretation.

That's your interpretation.

Not at all. It is simply reading what scripture says. The words mean what they mean. We cannot ignore them because we don't like what they say.

Yup. I think the point was that dead-in-the-flesh Moses was speaking and being spoken to by Jesus.

Right - GOD was speaking to them. The fact that Jesus had to be transfigured into His glory as God before speaking to them ought to be one indicator. Do you note that the men who were there did not speak to the dead, but only to jesus?

Not at all. It is simply reading what scripture says. the words mean what they mean. We cannot ignore them because we don't like what they say.
Or put our own spin on them to make them say what we want them to.

Right - GOD was speaking to them. The fact that Jesus had to be transfigured into His glory as God before speaking to them ought to be one indicator. Do you note that the men who were there did not speak to the dead, but only to jesus?

Jesus "HAD" to be transfigured? This looks an awful lot like spin. Nowhere does it say that Jesus "had to be" transfigured in order to speak to the dead. Moreover, it was a human being, Jesus (he whom we are to imitate) who stood speaking to two dead men. Jesus did not cease to be human on Mt. Tabor.

What are familiar spirits? should not people seek unto the Lord? for the living to the dead?

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?


I am not twisting this scripture.. it is written just as I copied it.... can anyone explain this question?

The NIV interprets it this way:

Isaiah 8:19 (New International Version)

19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

The term is interpreted the same way elsewhere:
Leviticus 19:31 (KJV)
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19:31 (New International Version)
31 " 'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.

That is in line with the New Testament which also says:
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Note that the term "spirit" is equated with "false prophet".

Or put our own spin on them to make them say what we want them to.

Well, I have given specific scriptural backup, as well as external experts, lexicons, etc.. You have told me that this this is your opinion that what I have posted is wrong.

So, it is your opinion that I am wrong. You have provided no validation for your opinion.

Jesus "HAD" to be transfigured?

Well, I am prepared to accept the word of scripture.


Nowhere does it say that Jesus "had to be" transfigured in order to speak to the dead.

Well, Akoue, it seems to me that it is you that is into spin. I am arguing based upon what scripture DOES says. You are trying to argue based upon what scripture DOES NOT say.

Well, I am prepared to accept the word of scripture.
And that word is?

Well, Akoue, it seems to me that it is you that is into spin. I am arguing based upon what scripture DOES says. You are trying to argue based upon what scripture DOES NOT say.
You, not Scripture, said He had to be.

You demonstrate well why it is so important to read the context. Let's see what the verse right before that one says:

Mark 9:2-3
2 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them.
NKJV

Do you know what this means? It means that Jesus was speaking to them

Actually it says that they were speaking with Him:

Matthew 17:3
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

In other words, this was a two way communication.


while transfigured into His glory as God, not as man. Now, unless you are claiming to be God, this does not apply to you.

But the point is that they were alive and speaking. Moses, whom you call dead in the flesh is very much alive in the spirit and Elias who was taken up body and soul is also very much alive, were both there speaking with Jesus.


As for Saul, you are merely labeling it - I could show you many sources which label speaking to the dead as witchcraft also - without any reservation as to whether the person is or is not saved.

I would say that Samuel, a faithful prophet of God, is saved. Saul used a witch to conjure the dead Samuel.

We don't. We simply pray and let them hear our prayer. Because they surround us and can hear us. Otherwise they would not be called a cloud of witnesses:

Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

This recalls the episode in the Old Testament:
2 Kings 6: 16And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. 17And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

We are always surrounded by the Saints in Christ.


If I went out to witness to a witch,

You would be obeying the Gospel:
James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


or if I had a witch pass on a message for me to someone else, is that a sin because of what she is? No, it is what she is doing that makes it witchcraft.

It certainly isn't in accord with the Scriptures:
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (King James Version)
10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

I don't think God wants us to be so familiar with witches that we would trust them with anything. Just my opinion.


So what was she doing? Calling up the dead, and I might add, a person who was dead in the flesh but saved.

We don't "call up" the dead.

We acknowledge what God has revealed. And God has revealed that the Saints in Christ are alive and aware of what happens on earth. They witness our actions, thus they see and hear us. And since Scripture says that we are to pray for each other, we ask them to pray for us in accordance with the Will of God.


So if you definition of "alive" holds, it would be no different than if a witch used a telephone to call you at home.

Quite different. I don't associate with witches. Therefore if a witch were to call me at home, she would be disturbing me.

1 Samuel 28
15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?

And that word is?

Have you read it?


You, not Scripture, said He had to be.

Okay - so your position is that Jesus transfigured to His glory as God just to put on a show before He spoke to those who had died? I personally have not understood Jesus to be someone who came to earth to entertain us.

I understand.

Actually it says that they were speaking with Him:

Matthew 17:3
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

In other words, this was a two way communication.

With JESUS in His glorified state as God - right. Not with the others.


But the point is that they were alive and speaking. Moses, whom you call dead in the flesh is very much alive in the spirit and Elias who was taken up body and soul is also very much alive, were both there speaking with Jesus.

With JESUS in His glorified state as God - right. Not with the others.



I would say that Samuel, a faithful prophet of God, is saved. Saul used a witch to conjure the dead Samuel.

Nothing that he did would have been a sin if Samuel were alive in the flesh.

Okay - so your position is that Jesus transfigured to His glory as God just to put on a show before He spoke to those who had died? I personally have not understood Jesus to be someone who came to earth to entertain us.

I understand.
Huh?

No, your position is that Jesus had to be transfigured.

What about the talking with, not to, Moses and Elias?

Huh?

No, your position is that Jesus had to be transfigured.

What about the talking with, not to, Moses and Elias?

So, why don't you tell us what YOUR OPINION is with respect to the significance of Jesus speaking "to not with" Moses and Elijah?

Why don't you tell us what YOUR OPINION is regarding why Jesus transfigured into His glorified state as God? Why did He not speak to them as a man in the flesh?

With JESUS in His glorified state as God - right. Not with the others.

With JESUS in His glorified state as God - right. Not with the others.

Yes. I don't think you are getting the idea here.

The episode at the Mount of Tabor shows that they speak to Jesus.

The following shows that they are aware of us:

Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Since they are aware of us. Can see us and hear us. We ask them to pray to God for us.

This is in accord with the Will of God. God says that we must imitate Jesus. Jesus is interceding with God for us. Thus, the Saints in heaven must be interceding to God for us because they are certainly proven to be imitators of Christ. Otherwise they wouldn't be there.

So, why don't you tell us what YOUR OPINION is with respect to the significance of Jesus speaking "to not with" Moses and Elijah?

Why don't you tell us what YOUR OPINION is regarding why Jesus transfigured into His glorified state as God? Why did He not speak to them as a man in the flesh?
How about answering my question instead of playing Socrates?

How about answering my question instead of playing Socrates?

What question?

Yes. I don't think you are getting the idea here.

The episode at the Mount of Tabor shows that they speak to Jesus.

Yes, they did, they spoke to Jesus while He was transfigured into His glorified state as God.


The following shows that they are aware of us:

Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Whether they are aware of us or not is not the question (though this verse does not state that they are aware), but rather whether we are to be communicating with those who are dead in the flesh.

what question?
#232

#232

#231

Now how about answering my question?

So, why don't you tell us what YOUR OPINION is with respect to the significance of Jesus speaking "with not to" Moses and Elijah?

Why don't you tell us what YOUR OPINION is regarding why Jesus transfigured into His glorified state as God? Why did He not speak to them as a man in the flesh?

#231
That's horrible! Jesus talked with a dead-in-the-flesh saint!! What an example to all Christians!

That's horrible!! Jesus talked with a dead-in-the-flesh saint!!!! What an example to all Christians!

Where do you see a problem with Jesus in His glorified state as God talking to dead in the flesh saints? Are you suggesting that God cannot do so?

Why do you avoid my questions?

Yes, they did, they spoke to Jesus while He was transfigured into His glorified state as God.



Whether they are aware of us or not is not the question (though this verse does not state that they are aware), but rather whether we are to be communicating with those who are dead in the flesh.

Is it your view of the Transfiguration that Jesus stopped being human while in his transfigured state? Did he jettison his human nature for a time on Mt. Tabor?

Is it your view of the Transfiguration that Jesus stopped being human while in his transfigured state? Did he jettison his human nature for a time on Mt. Tabor?

Where did I say that? I said that He was transfigured into His glorified state as God.

Where did I say that? I said that He was transfigured into His glorified state as God.
So He was also the human Jesus talking with a dead-in-the-flesh saint.

Where did I say that? I said that He was transfigured into His glorified state as God.

I didn't say that you did. I was asking.

If Jesus was a human being while speaking to the dead on Mt. Tabor, then, glorified state notwithstanding, he was a living human being speaking to the dead. So then it must be okay for us (living human beings) to speak to the dead. In doing so, we are imitating Christ.

So He was also the human Jesus talking with a dead-in-the-flesh saint.

Tell you what, I will agree that all who are both man and God can legitimately speak with the dead when they transfigure into their glorified state as God.

Now, how many people would that include?

I didn't say that you did. I was asking.

Good. Because I never did.


If Jesus was a human being while speaking to the dead on Mt. Tabor, then, glorified state notwithstanding,.

So you think that His glorified state is of no significance? You think that when Jesus humbled Himself to give up His glory as God, that meant nothing?

Tell you what, I will agree that all who are both man and God can legitimately speak with the dead when they transfigure into their glorified state as God.

Now, how many people would that include?

So we are not to imitate Christ in all things? Are we to pick those respects in which we follow Christ's example? If speaking to the dead was good enough for Christ, it ought to be good enough for us.

So you think that His glorified state is of no significance? You think that when Jesus humbled Himself to give up His glory as God, that meant nothing?
Aren't the saints in heaven experiencing glory now?

So we are not to imitate Christ in all things?

You meant like claiming to be God? Claiming to have the name above all names? Claiming to be the "I AM"?

No, there are some things where we must submit ourselves to Jesus as God, and not claim to be God. It is Jesus alone who can claim equality with God because He is God.