I need some direction, key phrases and terminology to use to be effective in getting my sons over-scheduled, somewhat jaded public defender to make some effort to build a defense case for my son.

My 18 y/o. son has been accused of a crime, in Wayne County, Upstate NY, which carries a 10 year to life sentence.

My son has been in jail for 29 days, waiting for a trial. We have given the Public defender names of possible alibi's, and other information which we feel will help put holes in the prosecutions story.

We met with the Public defender today, after a bail reduction hearing proved to be unsuccessful. I asked him how the investigation is going, and he said that alibi testimony is not very reliable, and that the investigators have not even spoken to the possible witness. We have been told not to talk to anyone, and have complied.

When I was finally able to pin him down and ask why, the investigation has not even started, a month after the arraignment, he blatantly stated, "There is no reason, I am just very busy".
He also stated that he is having a, "hard time dealing with this case," because he just had a similar case and the man was convicted with no evidence.


Is there a document out there which dictates specific responsibilities of the public defenders office? And possible consequences for inappropriate defense?

How can I get these people to take my sons case seriously?

We can not afford a paid lawyer, even though that is exactly what he needs - in this life and death case for an 18 year old young man.

I pray that someone out there has the information that I need to advocate for my son.

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions,
Blessings,
Elizabeth

I need some direction, key phrases and terminology to use to be effective in geting my sons over-scheduled, somewhat jaded public defender to make some effort to build a defense case for my son..... We can not afford a paid lawyer, even though that is exactly what he needs - in this life and death case for an 18 year old young man.Hello lizzy:

Terminology is important... So let's use it correctly. It is NOT life and death for your 18 year old. It's a ten year max, wherein if he gets convicted, he'll probably NOT get the max, and he'll be out in a couple years...

In the first place, you have a problem discussing the case with the lawyer. YOU aren't his client, and he can't discuss the case fully with you.

Your SON is the client, so if any of these important phrases are to be used, it's your SON who needs to use them.

The phrase your son might be looking for, is "YOU'RE FIRED". That could work in your sons favor in two respects. Certainly, when your son utters the phrase, he needs to make sure the lawyer knows that he's going to do it in writing, with a copy sent to the judge and another one to the prosecutor...

That's not going to make the PD look very good. Once the lawyer knows that your son is the "squeaky wheel" that needs to be greased, your son will probably get a better defense. If not, your son has a chance at getting a better lawyer appointed to him.

In the letter, your son needs to spell out exactly WHY he's firing his lawyer. Even if the judge doesn't like the reasons, he will appoint another lawyer. The new lawyer will NOT be from the public defenders office.

excon

Hi!
This is what I can offer: A few years ago, my ex was charged with a capitol felony that carried a life sentence with no possibility of parole. It took two years to go to trial. The P.D.'s office does help you, but it takes time before they can. Is there a trial date set? If so, then if the P.D.'s, or the prosecutors don't have their ducks in a row, they will file, and most likely receive, a continuance. This sets back the date of the trial. In my husband's case, the P. D. filed a "waive of right to a speedy trial." which delayed the trial even longer, to get them some more time. I agree with the P.D. about the alibi issue. And as far as his having lost a similar case, I imagine he wants to do this one right, which is why he will take his time. P.D.s are pressured to win cases, just as much as prosecuting attorneys are. And like being in the minors in baseball, not having a good win/loss ratio, will hinder their chances of landing a good legal job when they decide to leave the P.D.'s office. My, or rather my husband's P.D. lost the case, but he eventually left the office and is now working for another law firm. You could look up your public defener's office online for more information, or a main number if you feel that they are not doing their job. But 29 days for an offense that carries a sentence like that, it is definitely too early for either side to be ready for trial. Give it time, keep your hope up, and encourage your son.

Hello lizzy:

Terminology is important... So let's use it correctly. It is NOT life and death for your 18 year old. It's a ten year max, wherein if he gets convicted, he'll probably NOT get the max, and he'll be out in a couple years....

In the first place, you have a problem discussing the case with the lawyer. YOU aren't his client, and he can't discuss the case fully with you.

Your SON is the client, so if any of these important phrases are to be used, it's your SON who needs to use them.

The phrase your son might be looking for, is "YOU'RE FIRED". That could work in your sons favor in two respects. Certainly, when your son utters the phrase, he needs to make sure the lawyer knows that he's going to do it in writing, with a copy sent to the judge and another one to the prosecutor....

That's not going to make the PD look very good. Once the lawyer knows that your son is the "squeaky wheel" that needs to be greased, your son will probably get a better defense. If not, your son has a chance at getting a better lawyer appointed to him.

In the letter, your son needs to spell out exactly WHY he's firing his lawyer. Even if the judge doesn't like the reasons, he will appoint another lawyer. The new lawyer will NOT be from the public defenders office.

excon

I understand what you are saying, but I must make 2 corrections.

1. the madatory sentence is 10 years to LIFE. Minimum of 10 years to LIFE...

2. My son is classified special education with an IEP and can not write or advocate for himself, alone.

And one more question:
How do you know that the new lawyer will NOT be from the public defenders office? Where can I find the information?

Hi!
This is what I can offer: A few years ago, my ex was charged with a capitol felony that carried a life sentence with no possibility of parole. It took two years to go to trial. The P.D.'s office does help you, but it takes time before they can. Is there a trial date set? If so, then if the P.D.'s, or the prosecutors don't have their ducks in a row, they will file, and most likely receive, a continuance. This sets back the date of the trial. In my husband's case, the P. D. filed a "waive of right to a speedy trial." which delayed the trial even longer, to get them some more time. I agree with the P.D. about the alibi issue. And as far as his having lost a similar case, I imagine he wants to do this one right, which is why he will take his time. P.D.s are pressured to win cases, just as much as prosecuting attorneys are. And like being in the minors in baseball, not having a good win/loss ratio, will hinder their chances of landing a good legal job when they decide to leave the P.D.'s office. My, or rather my husband's P.D., lost the case, but he eventually left the office and is now working for another law firm. You could look up your public defener's office online for more information, or a main number if you feel that they are not doing their job. But 29 days for an offense that carries a sentence like that, it is definatly too early for either side to be ready for trial. Give it time, keep your hope up, and encourage your son.

Thank you, what you say makes sense. The P.D. was willing to give me the name of his supperior, so that I could contact him with my concerns, upon my request. And he finally admitted that someone in his office had "dropped the ball", and that he was going to deal with it, even before I confronted him. I told him that he needed to be more aggressive with a defense, and offered my assistance in any way.

I did go to the P.D. office and leave a message for the superior to get back with me at his earliest convenience.

I feel like I need to be armed with some legal terminology when I finally get an opportunity to talk to him.

I want to be informed as to what my sons rights are, so at the very least I can help my son advocate for himself.

Thanks a bunch, eliz.

Hello again, Lizzy:

1. I misunderstood about the sentence.

2. Hopefully THAT will be a reason YOU can act as his advocate. But, you have NO legal standing to do so. Therefore, YOU can't fire him. You COULD MENTION firing, as a direction you're encouraging your son to go.

I'm thinking to myself now... But, if you can't fire him, and your son hasn't the capacity to fire him, what happens?

Good question, excon. I don't know. I'm not sure.

Look, in defense of the PD, they're overworked and underpaid. For the most part, they ARE good lawyers, but they don't have the resources to defend each case like it SHOULD be defended...

That's why you NEED to be ONE of those cases where the PD DOES give it his all. Sometimes hearing the word "fire", is all that's necessary. Sometimes it's enough to make it worse.

The new attorney won't be from the same office, because it's the OFFICE of Public Defender that is being fired - not the individual attorney.

Look, I wish I knew the details and could tell you more.

There's a great deal at risk here, and every move you make has consequences. Nobody knows how things will turn out.

I SAY the judge will appoint another lawyer. I say that, because that's what the law is... But, that doesn't mean EVERY judge in the world is going to follow the law.

I've heard here, on this very forum, defendants who've fired their lawyers, and the judge refusing to appoint them a new one.

Yes, that'll give the defendant grounds for an appeal, but that's not the same as being found innocent.

So, I don't know how this is going to turn out. All I know is what I would do based upon what you've said here. Boy, oh boy, do I hope it's right.

excon

I did go to the P.D. office and leave a message for the superior to get back with me at his earliest convenience. Hello again, lizzy:

I absolutely would NOT do this. It will NOT get your son a better defense. In fact, it may HURT his defense.

I want a lawyer representing me who is NOT harboring thoughts of getting even with me for complaining about him to his boss.

excon

I saw your response to Ex-Con, and I wonder. Can you be appointed, or a Guardian Ad Litem be appointed to represent him because he has special needs? You might want to ask the office about that. Ex-Con has been there, done that, and is probably a better source of information, but I am relating what happened to me and my idiot husband. I just wish, and I related that to my P.D. that they print a pamphlet or something to explain to those that are in this for the first time, what to expect, and what to do to help, but *sigh* I have not heard of any office doing that.
I wish the best of luck to you and your son.

Ok, here is the issue, public defenders have little or no budget, many don't even have investigators, and those that do are over worked.

So if you want statements taken, and other investigation, you need to hire a investigator yourself, to supply them all the evidence.

Many PD only makes sure that the material of the DA is done legally,

So if you have witnesses, get them to go to the PD and talk to them,

This is not TV, the PD is not going to drive around talking to people, and building a case.

Ok, here is the issue, public defenders have little or no budget, many don't even have investigators, and those that do are over worked.

So if you want statements taken, and other investigation, you need to hire a investigator yourself, to supply them all the evidence.

Many PD only makes sure that the material of the DA is done legally,

So if you have witnesses, get them to go to the PD and talk to them,

This is not TV, the PD is not going to drive around talking to people, and building a case.

Thanks a bunch, I do understand what you are saying, and we had had that thought, also... but
The P.D. discouraged us from hiring our own investigator, and from trying to hire a private atty. In a co-chair type situation.. as they would all want at least $10,000 - $20,000 retainer... and if we can't afford the $25,000 bail/$50,000 bond, we definitely can not afford the private atty. Fees.

Hello again, lizzy:

I absolutely would NOT do this. It will NOT get your son a better defense. In fact, it may HURT his defense.

I want a lawyer representing me who is NOT harboring thoughts of getting even with me for complaining about him to his boss.

excon

The P.D. encouraged me to contact his superior, and said that someone in his office is dropping the ball, "wink, wink" -(Ie. The staff investigator),. and that not only did he expect me to follow up, with the superior, but that he was going to follow up also, with a complaint regarding the investigator and other defense staff there.

I saw your response to Ex-Con, and I wonder. Can you be appointed, or a Guardian Ad Litem be appointed to represent him because he has special needs? You might want to ask the office about that. Ex-Con has been there, done that, and is probably a better source of information, but I am relating what happened to me and my idiot husband. I just wish, and I related that to my P.D., that they print a pamphlet or something to explain to those that are in this for the first time, what to expect, and what to do to help, but *sigh* I have not heard of any office doing that.
I wish the best of luck to you and your son.

The P.D. office has provided a "social worker", although the title on her business card says "sentencing specialist".. from their office to advocate for my son. She interviewed my son, and then she interviewed myself, regarding my sons disabilities. My son is scared, obviously, and is afraid that if the jury knows that he has special ed. Issues, that they will automatically think he is guilty... this is a case, which the law dictates does not require corroboration in any form... for conviction... its a "he said - she said" case.

The P.D. encouraged me to contact his superior, and said that someone in his office is dropping the ball, "wink, wink" -(Ie. the staff investigator), ... and that not only did he expect me to follow up, with the superior, but that he was going to follow up also, with a complaint regarding the investigator and other defense staff there.

Here is a copy of the letter I am fixing to send to the P.D. superior. I have left out names... for the obvious reasons...

Dear Mr. XXXXX,
Please accept this letter as an official request for your assistance.

My son, XXXXX18 y/o has been accused of a crime, in Wayne County, NY, which carries a mandatory 10 years to LIFE sentence if convicted.

XX has been in jail for 29 days, awaiting trial. P.D. of the Wayne County Public Defenders Office was assigned the case. XX has given the names of possible alibis, and other information which he feels will benefit the defense team in building a defense case, and tearing down the prosecutions accusations. He was told that the investigator from the Wayne County Public Defenders Office would be conducting an appropriate investigation of the accusations, and possible alibi testimony.

We met with P.D. today, after a bail reduction hearing proved to be unsuccessful. I asked him how the investigation is going, and he said that alibi testimony is not very reliable and that the investigators have not even spoken to the possible witness. This is 6 months after the accusation was made, and no one has even spoken to witnesses! We have been told not to talk to anyone, and have complied.

I asked P.D. why the investigation has not even started, a month after the arraignment, he blatantly stated, "There IS NO reason, I am just very busy".

Why are we being told that there is an investigation being conducted, when there is not? Is there a document which dictates specific responsibilities of the Public Defenders Office, and possible consequences for an inadequate defense? What are my son’s options?

I understand the time and funding constraints of the Public defenders office, but I need you to understand that there is a fine line that we are walking right now. I ask you to put yourself in our position for just one moment, and acknowledge that we must be willing to do whatever it takes to insure that our son receives a fair trial.

Please note that I am not writing to assign blame, but rather to simply to request that action be taken to remedy this problem, so that we may get on with the task of building a defense for Ryan.

I would like to thank you in advance for your attention to this matter, and look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.

Sincerely,

Thanks a bunch, I do understand what you are saying, and we had had that thought, also... but
The P.D. discouraged us from hiring our own investigator, and from trying to hire a private atty. in a co-chair type situation...,as they would all want at least $10,000 - $20,000 retainer... and if we can't afford the $25,000 bail/$50,000 bond, we definately can not afford the private atty. fees.


I would find out WHY the "private investigator" was discouraged - makes absolutely no sense to me.

I also think the letter you are proposing will cause more problems than it solves. Attorneys talk to each other and #1 will speak to #2 - if there is a #2. That will NOT help your son.

What is he charged with - what crime?

I would find out WHY the "private investigator" was discouraged - makes absolutely no sense to me.

I also think the letter you are proposing will cause more problems than it solves. Attorneys talk to each other and #1 will speak to #2 - if there is a #2. That will NOT help your son.

What is he charged with - what crime?

We are not looking for a #2 lawyer, the #1 P.D. is our best option and wish to stay with him - unless we had the money for a private atty. I made it clear to him, when I asked for his superiors name, that this is not personal against him, but rather about the P.D. office procedure, and checks and balances. I plan to continue to communicate with this atty. And use him to get what we need. He is willing to work with us and has expressed his dissatisfaction with the way the system is. He is also proactive with legal issues, outside of the P.D. office. I have received enough information here today, to learn that we are on the right path, and be thankful for the fact that we have a good P.D. who is working in a weak P.D. office, but they do seem to have more resources than other systems.. Ie. Staff investigator, etc...

I don't feel that it is necessary to give the details of the specific charges etc.. unless there is good reason. So, unless you are an atty. - willing to take this case on payments, I have no reason to give more details than what I have already given - self preservation.

Blessings to all, eliz.

We are not looking for a #2 lawyer, the #1 P.D. is our best option and wish to stay with him - unless we had the money for a private atty. I made it clear to him, when I asked for his superiors name, that this is not personal against him, but rather about the P.D. office procedure, and checks and balances. I plan to continue to communicate with this atty. and use him to get what we need. He is willing to work with us and has expressed his dissatisfaction with the way the system is. He is also proactive with legal issues, outside of the P.D. office. I have received enough information here today, to learn that we are on the right path, and be thankful for the fact that we have a good P.D. who is working in a weak P.D. office, but they do seem to have more resources than other systems.. Ie. staff investigator, etc...

I dont feel that it is necessary to give the details of the specific charges etc..., unless there is good reason. So, unless you are an atty. - willing to take this case on payments, I have no reason to give more details than what I have already given - self preservation.

Blessings to all, eliz.



This is called "it's not you, it's me." Complaining about the office is NOT going to help your son, will not make you a friend of the DA's office.

I'm not an Attorney - but I am an investigator and I am also in NY. I appreciate you don't want to post details of the crime for reasons of self preservation. Your option, of course.

I would suggest that without knowing the details of the crime any additional legal advice is simply guessing - and, again, find an investigator to either pay or work pro bono, no matter what the crime is. You have an uphill task here and you will fail unless you become very, very proactive - and smart.

The PD's office has been hit HARD by cutbacks and is overworked and understaffed. But you already know that.

I will also say while 29 days seems like a long time, it is nothing, in Georgia it is common to be in jail 6 months to 9 months before you even go to trial for varoius crimes, I know one man who was in for almost 12 before he finally went to trial

This is called "it's not you, it's me." Complaining about the office is NOT going to help your son, will not make you a friend of the DA's office.

I'm not an Attorney - but I am an investigator and I am also in NY. I appreciate you don't want to post details of the crime for reasons of self preservation. Your option, of course.

I would suggest that without knowing the details of the crime any additional legal advice is simply guessing - and, again, find an investigator to either pay or work pro bono, no matter what the crime is. You have an uphill task here and you will fail unless you become very, very proactive - and smart.

The PD's office has been hit HARD by cutbacks and is overworked and understaffed. But you already know that.

Yes, I understand what you are saying. I pray that you find it in your heart to offer your pro bono investigative services on my sons behalf. As our personal resources are more limited than that of the P.D. office. I am a disabled person, and my husband works his fingers to the bone, every day, for just enough money to keep a roof over our head, and food on the table. We continue to search for resources, and will never give up, until justice is served.

So, again, I ask you... Would you be willing to "pay it forward" and take his case for little or no money? I have done special education edvocacy in the past, and know that what you put out there, comes back tenfold... I believe this whole heartedly, and would do anything to show good faith.

Blessings to you all for all of your well wishes and efforts...
Eliz.

I will also say while 29 days seems like a long time, it is nothing, in Georgia it is common to be in jail 6 months to 9 months before you even go to trial for varoius crimes, I know one man who was in for almost 12 before he finally went to trial

I am beginning to see this. We are also beginning to settle in for the long fight... Patience is a virtue... so, by the end of this, we should all be canonized... lol, just kidding, but Im starting to see the big picture, and recognize the need for a greater perspective.

Today I pray for you, and for myself, and all of our friends and family, and all of our brothers and sisters on this planet. I humbly ask the Lord for a great act of divine intervention. I ask our Lord and Savior, to pound his mighty fist down - on all of the injustice, fear, war and greed in the world. Instantly replacing them with the passion, grace, and humility of the Holy Spirit… if only for a momentary reprieve. I ask Him to lift us up above the worst of it all, to a higher standard of brotherhood in humanity. Amen

Blessings to all

No one, me included, would volunteer to work on this case without knowing the charges and without speaking to the PD's office. No one knows what proof the "other side" has or what is involved here. Some of these matters are best left alone - at the advice of the PD - because anything which is NOT helpful MUST be turned over and I've seen people destroy their own cases with "bad" witnesses.

I realize the need for privacy and I am not asking you to reveal anything - I am just explaining how this works.

No one, me included, would volunteer to work on this case without knowing the charges and without speaking to the PD's office. No one knows what proof the "other side" has or what is involved here. Some of these matters are best left alone - at the advice of the PD - because anything which is NOT helpful MUST be turned over and I've seen people destroy their own cases with "bad" witnesses.

I realize the need for privacy and I am not asking you to reveal anything - I am just explaining how this works.

OOOO, OK... I understand what you are saying. Stepping lightly...

If you are in a position to help, and would be willing to look into it, I would ask that we pursue this option further. Is there some way I could get your credentials, and get permission from the P.D. to speak with you privately, or in conjunction with their office, so everything is on the level?

We have been told that corroboration is not needed for conviction, and that evidence does not need to be disclosed until the day of the trial. My son maintains his absolute innocence. He just needs a fair investigation, so that he may be better prepared to defend himself.

Im going to see how the next few days/weeks goes, and get an idea of where things are headed. Regroup, and visit with my son... Ill keep checking here and keep in touch...

Thanks a bunch to you all... I am glad to have found this site... People, helping people... are the luckiest people, in the world... haha, but seriously... Blessings and thanks

First of all a public defender works with the state so there not going to help u like a paid lawyer,the best is try to come up with the money to get better results!
I need some direction, key phrases and terminology to use to be effective in geting my sons over-scheduled, somewhat jaded public defender to make some effort to build a defense case for my son.

My 18 y/o. son has been accused of a crime, in Wayne County, Upstate NY, which carries a 10 year to life sentence.

My son has been in jail for 29 days, waiting for a trial. We have given the Public defender names of possible alibi's, and other information which we feel will help put holes in the prosecutions story.

We met with the Public defender today, after a bail reduction hearing proved to be unsuccessful. I asked him how the investigation is going, and he said that alibi testimony is not very reliable, and that the investigators have not even spoken to the possible witness. We have been told not to talk to anyone, and have complied.

When I was finally able to pin him down and ask why, the investigation has not even started, a month after the arraignment, he blatantly stated, "There is no reason, I am just very busy".
He also stated that he is having a, "hard time dealing with this case," because he just had a similar case and the man was convicted with no evidence.


Is there a document out there which dictates specific responsibilities of the public defenders office? And possible consequences for inappropriate defense?

How can I get these people to take my sons case seriously?

We can not afford a paid lawyer, even though that is exactly what he needs - in this life and death case for an 18 year old young man.

I pray that someone out there has the information that I need to advocate for my son.

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions,
Blessings,
Elizabeth

I think we got some good news, we'll see where it goes.

I sent the letter, (I revised it a bit, and took out some non-essential sentences - short and sweet) via USPS, and the same day forwarded a copy of the same - via email, to the P.D. to give him a heads up. He responded positively, and asked me for permission to forward the email to his boss. Well, the boss called my husband on his cell at 7pm that night, to let us know that he is on the case, and had already scheduled interviews with 3 defense witnesses for the next day.

Praise God. Blessings to all. Ill keep in touch

Update: I just got a call from my son, in jail 38 days now, awaiting trial. He reported to me that there was a physical attack, perpetrated on him, by a guard at the jail - a C.O.

Apparently this is what happened:

My son was in his cell with the door locked, and a guard (my son does not know his name) came and opened the door, and said to my son, "So you think you're a tough guy, hey?"

My son said, "No, I do not think I am a tough guy."

The guard told my son to sit down, and my son complied...

The guard told my son to take off his shirt, and my son complied. (why would the guard do this?)

The guard proceeded to punch my son in the head repeatedly, and then he choked my son to the point that he felt like he was going to pass out and was seeing stars.

The attack was reported and papers were filed. Pictures were taken and my son went to the nurse, for treatment and documentation.

There are multiple "goose eggs" on the back of my son head, and hand prints on both sides of his neck. My son is sick about this, and swears that he did not even say a word to defend himself, nor did he take any physical action to defend himself. This was a blatant, unprovoked attack.

My son stated that Sgt. XXX, and Sgt. XXX were very receptive to his complaint, and one of them even stated that, "This kind of behavior is not acceptable from a C.O." They also stated that they would take care of the situation. There is also a Lieutenant, who was very receptive, but my son did not know his name. My son did not receive a "write up" or any other reprimand regarding this incident.

My sons P.D. received news of this incident from me, in an email. He went directly to the jail, and took his own pictures, and talked to my son. He confirmed that what my son said was true.

I am going to look into weather the ACLU or any other advocacy group would be willing to get involved with the case. Any help on that would be greatly appreciated. I am absolutely outraged. My son is maintaining his composure, but why should he have to deal with this, while he is trying to build a defense? I just wonder how they can get away with this… Im sick about it…





I need some direction, key phrases and terminology to use to be effective in geting my sons over-scheduled, somewhat jaded public defender to make some effort to build a defense case for my son.

My 18 y/o. son has been accused of a crime, in Wayne County, Upstate NY, which carries a 10 year to life sentence.

My son has been in jail for 29 days, waiting for a trial. We have given the Public defender names of possible alibi's, and other information which we feel will help put holes in the prosecutions story.

We met with the Public defender today, after a bail reduction hearing proved to be unsuccessful. I asked him how the investigation is going, and he said that alibi testimony is not very reliable, and that the investigators have not even spoken to the possible witness. We have been told not to talk to anyone, and have complied.

When I was finally able to pin him down and ask why, the investigation has not even started, a month after the arraignment, he blatantly stated, "There is no reason, I am just very busy".
He also stated that he is having a, "hard time dealing with this case," because he just had a similar case and the man was convicted with no evidence.


Is there a document out there which dictates specific responsibilities of the public defenders office? And possible consequences for inappropriate defense?

How can I get these people to take my sons case seriously?

We can not afford a paid lawyer, even though that is exactly what he needs - in this life and death case for an 18 year old young man.

I pray that someone out there has the information that I need to advocate for my son.

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions,
Blessings,
Elizabeth

I am going to look into weather the ACLU or any other advocacy group would be willing to get involved with the case. I am absolutely outraged.Hello again, liz:

I understand your outrage. I caution you, however, to focus your outrage where it will do the most good. I further suggest that you recognize that the people who are in charge of your sons well being aren't very nice people. They're not fair. They're mean, and they don't care about your outrage.

Plus, it doesn't appear that your son knows how to deal with his surroundings. He's the one who may take the brunt of your outrage... He CAN be victimized.

Now, please don't think for a minute that I believe you should lay down for these people... But, I also don't believe the cop beat your son up just because he had nothing else to do. SOMETHING happened to provoke it.

As difficult as it is, your son needs to learn how to cope with his environment or he could get hurt. Complaining about it could have deleterious consequences.

excon

Hello again, liz:

I understand your outrage. I caution you, however, to focus your outrage where it will do the most good. I further suggest that you recognize that the people who are in charge of your sons well being aren't very nice people. They're not fair. They're mean, and they don't care about your outrage.

Plus, it doesn't appear that your son knows how to deal with his surroundings. He's the one who may take the brunt of your outrage.... He CAN be victimized.

Now, please don't think for a minute that I believe you should lay down for these people... But, I also don't believe the cop beat your son up just because he had nothing else to do. SOMETHING happened to provoke it.

As difficult as it is, your son needs to learn how to cope with his environment or he could get hurt. Complaining about it could have deleterious consequences.

excon

All due respect, excon, but you do not understand my outrage - you do not understand the situation at all. Just because I am outraged, doe not mean that I am going to fly off the handle and do something stupid. I am wise beyond my years, and have a basic understanding of how things work in the real world. Just because I am a spiritual person, and a mother, does not mean that I am an idiot who would start pointing fingers and put my son at further risk... so lets get that out of the way right now...

You constantly jump to assumptions without exploring all possibilities - the ones beyond your personal experience.

I, like you, also believe that the guard did not beat up my son for no reason, but it was not anything my son did, it is a reason beyond our scope of our understanding, right now...

The fact is that he has already been victimized, and the jail staff already admitted it to the P.D. They have taken full responsibility - I don't know how to express this fact to you, in a way that you will understand it.

I would never complain to anyone in the jail, I am not stipid, and would never put my son at risk that way... But, I also know that he needed to see his lawyer, after it happened, and have the incident documented by the P.D. office.

You say, "please don't think for a minute that I believe you should lay down for these people..." Well, stop telling me what NOT to do and suggest something proactive, and positive that I can do to advocate for my son.
... no disrespect intended...
Blessings...

I'm going to walk the middle of the road here - I understand the outrage of a mother. I understand what Excon (who knows the system) is saying. There is some reason why out of ALL the prisoners the guard is taking things out on your son. I think the more of a commotion you cause the more things will be taken out on him in the future. The squeeky wheel does not necessarily get the most oil.

Again - I respect your request for privacy and your not wanting to post the details of this case BUT your son is facing some very heavy time and I question what the charges are. Violence by personnel against prisoners in MY area (and it's certainly not the same all over the country) is reserved for child molesters, woman beaters.

I know you are a mother and you are hurting and I am NOT saying your son is in one of those categories. I am saying that without knowing more about the charges it is difficult to understand the treatment he is receiving and has received.

I would never complain to anyone in the jail, I am not stipid, and would never put my son at risk that way... But, I also know that he needed to see his lawyer, after it happened, and have the incident documented by the P.D. office.
The The attack was reported and papers were filed. Pictures were taken and my son went to the nurse, for treatment and documentation.Hello again, lizz:

I'm beginning to see what the problem is.

excon

I'm going to walk the middle of the road here - I understand the outrage of a mother. I understand what Excon (who knows the system) is saying. There is some reason why out of ALL the prisoners the guard is taking things out on your son. I think the more of a commotion you cause the more things will be taken out on him in the future. The squeeky wheel does not necessarily get the most oil.

Again - I respect your request for privacy and your not wanting to post the details of this case BUT your son is facing some very heavy time and I question what the charges are. Violence by personnel against prisoners in MY area (and it's certainly not the same all over the country) is reserved for child molesters, woman beaters.

I know you are a mother and you are hurting and I am NOT saying your son is in one of those categories. I am saying that without knowing more about the charges it is difficult to understand the treatment he is receiving and has received.

Again, I have to say, I have caused NO commotion, I am not a sqweeky wheel... I am simply asking questions. I have spoken to no one about his, except for the P.D. I am aware of the risks, and that is why I am asking about what/if any, would be an appropriate reaction. AGAIN! I have done nothing - My son has done nothing! This was an isolated incident,. a test of his character, so to speak, and he passed... he did not report it, he did not file charges, he did not even fight back... he did exactly what he should have done - he is no punk... and I am proud of how he is dealing with this joke of a justice system... which exists in MY area and yours...

Yall' may have seen so much, that it just does not effect you any longer. But, let me tell you people, we are fighting a just fight, with patience and passion... with the universal power to guide us. This is opportunity for lessons to be learned, for all involved - nothing more, nothing less.

If I told you that my son was accused of beating a woman, or stealing a loaf of bread, or pissing on a cop - What the F*** is the difference? (excuse my language) He is accused, not convicted! Would your response be any different? The charges do not have any bearing on weather or not you deserve being beaten for no reason, while waiting for trial, in the United States of America. Like Ive said before, I believe that we all need to live by a higher standard of brotherhood in humanity, and realize that every single person who's rights are neglected, deserves a person who is willing to stand by them and let them know that what happened was wrong, and that the universe assures us that - what goes around comes around... no squeeky wheels involved - just the natural order of things. We do not need or want simple payback, we will settle for nothing less than justice.

Again, no disrespect intended... I just don't think that we are on the same page...
Blessings and sincere thanks to all -

hello again, lizz:

I'm beginning to see what the problem is.

excon

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I would never complain to anyone in the jail, I am not stipid, and would never put my son at risk that way... But, I also know that he needed to see his lawyer, after it happened, and have the incident documented by the P.D. office.
The The attack was reported and papers were filed. Pictures were taken and my son went to the nurse, for treatment and documentation.
?
?
?Hello for the last time, lizz:

In your top quote, you say that you would NEVER complain and put your son at risk...

In your middle quote, you tell us that you complained.

In your bottom quote, you look confused. I understand why.

excon

Hello for the last time, lizz:

In your top quote, you say that you would NEVER complain and put your son at risk...

In your middle quote, you tell us that you complained.

In your bottom quote, you look confused. I understand why.

excon

Ok, allow me to clarify.. even if for the last time...

I did not complain to anyone, neither did my son. A different guard walked in on the deal and reported it... it was totally out of my sons hands. I never said that I complained...

All I did was contact my sons attorney... who is very receptive to my contact, and has not shown any resentment or resistance to my involvement. Are you saying that my telling the lawyer about the incident, qualifies as complaining to the jail or being a squeeky wheel?

My question marks in my las post... are simply asking you what you "see"... as you only stated that you "see". I am not confused, whatsoever. I was asking you to follow up with your statement...

I think it's time to close this - it's a public debate, not a legal question.

I see no point in continuing.