***EDITED**** We are not going to address the previous posts which have been closed for varoius reasons, we can address the new question : Fr Chuck >>>



Part 4: can we find in early history and scripture evidence of Bishops, priests, and deacons?


JoeT

***EDITED**** We are not going to address the previous posts which have been closed for varoius reasons, we can address the new question : Fr Chuck >>>

Part 4: can we find in early history and scripture evidence of Bishops, priests, and deacons?

JoeT


There is considerable evidence for bishops and deacons. I will limit my comments to what we find in scripture:

Phil 1:1-2
1:1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
NKJV

1 Tim 3:1-7
3:1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5(for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
NKJV

Titus 1:6-9
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
NKJV

Phil 1:1-2
1:1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ,

To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
NKJV

1 Tim 3:8-13
8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given too much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

As for priests, at the death and resurrection of Christ, the priesthood that previously existed was done away with, and a new priesthood of all believers was created.

1 Peter 2:4-6
4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

"Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."
NKJV


1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
NKJV

And we have one high priest:

Heb 3:1-3
3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
NKJV

Therefore all who have received Christ as Saviour are priests.

I do believe that often what we think of as Bishops today, and the bishop of the bible are the issue, the Bishop of the early church would be what I call the pastor or priest of the local church.

I do beleive that often what we think of as Bishops today, and the bishop of the bible are the issue, the Bishop of the early church would be what I call the pastor or priest of the local church.

Agreed.

I would differentiate on the use of the word priest because in the NT, the word for priest, hiereus, is only used for the priests in the temple and for Jesus as our high priest (archiereus). The words used for bishop (episkopos) is different.

***EDITED**** We are not going to address the previous posts which have been closed for varoius reasons, we can address the new question : Fr Chuck >>>


Part 4: can we find in early history and scripture evidence of Bishops, priests, and deacons?

JoeT

All believers are priests:

1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Amongst these nation of priests are they who are called to minister to the priesthood of believers of God. These are the Ministerial Priests:

Luke 22: 26But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

Acts 6:2
Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

1 Cor 7 32But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

Amongst the ministerial priests, are they who feed the entire Church. The elders or Bishops:

Acts 1:20
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Acts 15:22
Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

Acts 21:18
And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

1 Timothy 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Peter 5:1
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

All believers are priests:

Agreed.


Amongst these nation of priests are they who are called to minister to the priesthood of believers of God. These are the Ministerial Priests:

Where in scripture do you find the term "ministerial priests"? In studying scripture I find all believers caslled priests, and only one person is given a higher office as a priest and that is Jesus who is called singularly the "High Priest".

I find no mention in scripture of a priestly office within the church.

Agreed.



Where in scripture do you find the term "ministerial priests"? In studying scripture I find all believers caslled priests, and only one person is given a higher office as a priest and that is Jesus who is called singularly the "High Priest".

I find no mention in scripture of a priestly office within the church.

There is another word used in the NT for priest, and that is "presbuteros". And then there are the episkopoi, the bishops. Also the diaconate: In Acts 6 deacons were ordained by the Apostles for a specific ministry and received the laying on of hands. These are all priestly offices and were recognized as such by all the first and second century witnesses that have come down to us (e.g. the Didache, 1 & 2 Clement, Ignatius of Antioch, the Shepherd of Hermas, etc.). While it is true that Christ is the High Priest of the Church, this in no way militates against an ordained priesthood, established and expanded through the laying on of hands.

Where in scripture do you find the term "ministerial priests"? In studying scripture I find all believers caslled priests, and only one person is given a higher office as a priest and that is Jesus who is called singularly the "High Priest".

I find no mention in scripture of a priestly office within the church.

You believe in the Trinity don't you? I don't see it in Scripture, why do you believe it?

In the same way, the term "ministerial priest" is not seen in Scripture. But Scripture illustrates the concept as is seen in the verses I posted.

There is another word used in the NT for priest, and that is "presbuteros".

Presbuteros is more properly translated as "elder". You'd be hard pressed to find a translation of the Bible translating presbuteros as priest other than Bible specific to Catholic denominations.

You believe in the Trinity don't you? I don't see it in Scripture, why do you believe it?

The trinity is described throughout scripture. Later when I am home, I could recommend a couple of good books that would help guide you through the scriptures if you are unaware as to where the trinity is found in scripture.


In the same way, the term "ministerial priest" is not seen in Scripture. But Scripture illustrates the concept as is seen in the verses I posted.

I disagree that these references describe a priest at all.

Presbuteros is more properly translated as "elder". You'd be hard pressed to find a translation of the Bible translating presbuteros as priest other than Bible specific to Catholic denominations.

Not really. Some "denominational" translations render "presbuteros" as "elder". Better translations just transliterate the Greek to read "presbyter" since the word doesn't have an exact English equivalent.

Either way, there clearly was a hierarchy in the ecclesial structure of the Church in the NT, including, as I mentioned in my last post, both episkopos and diakonos. I'm not sure what you mean to deny when you deny that there is evidence of a ministerial priesthood, but it is evident that episkopos, presbuteros, and diakonos are ecclesial positions or roles within an ecclesiastical hierarchy. The earliest Christian writings outside the NT bear further and even more detailed witness to this, writings composed by people who knew and worked with the Apostles. So it is unclear to me what you take yourself to be opposing here.

The trinity is described throughout scripture. Later when I am home, I could recommend a couple of good books that would help guide you through the scriptures if you are unaware as to where the trinity is found in scripture.

Nowhere does Scripture say that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are homoousios. Neither does it say that they are three hypostases of one ousia, nor that each is a prosopon or person. Scripture never explains the ekporeusis of the Spirit. And yet you believe in the Trinity: I have seen you affirm the Nicene Creed in this very forum. If you really are a sola scripturist then by your own lights you would have to reject the doctrine of the Trinity.

Not really. Some "denominational" translations render "presbuteros" as "elder". Better translations just transliterate the Greek to read "presbyter" since the word doesn't have an exact English equivalent.

However, the word does not imply "priest".


Either way, there clearly was a hierarchy in the ecclesial structure of the Church in the NT, including, as I mentioned in my last post, both episkopos and diakonos.

As you may not have noted, I already said that myself. A priest is a specific office, though.

Nowhere does Scripture say that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are homoousios. Neither does it say that they are three hypostases of one ousia, nor that each is a prosopon or person. Scripture never explains the ekporeusis of the Spirit. And yet you believe in the Trinity: I have seen you affirm the Nicene Creed in this very forum. If you really are a sola scripturist then by your own lights you would have to reject the doctrine of the Trinity.

This is not the right thread to get into this in more detail, but if you really believe that, I have trouble believing that you have studied in any depth what scripture says about the nature of God.

De Maria
I agree that the term elder in the bible can be and has been understood by many theologians as "priest" and ordained as such.
Akoue...
I also agree with you and so does early Church history.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

De Maria
I agree that the term elder in the bible can be and has been understood by many theologians as "priest" and ordained as such.

But again, the original word does not carry that denotation, and those theologians would be Catholic, not non-Catholic.l

Yj3
That is your opinion.
Thanks for sharing it.
Fred

Presbuteros is more properly translated as "elder". You'd be hard pressed to find a translation of the Bible translating presbuteros as priest other than Bible specific to Catholic denominations.

Yes, and the Catholic Church and all those who understand that Presbytery is priesthood, all came before the Reformers reinterpreted the word.

Presbytery may refer to:

* Presbytery (church polity), a governing body of ordained elders and ministers
* Presbyterium, a body of ordained, active priests in the Roman Catholic or Anglican churches
* Presbytery (architecture), the area of a church building reserved for the clergy
* Presbytery (residence), or "rectory", the home of one or more Roman Catholic priests

De Maria,
Points well made.
Fred

Yes, and the Catholic Church and all those who understand that Presbytery is priesthood, ......

Then they did not understand Greek. Those who penned the Bible understood that the priesthood which added as a mediator between God and man (which is also the meaning of Pontiff) was done away with when Jesus died and was resurrected. That is why we now have a priesthood of all believers, because those who are saved can come before God in the name of our one and only high priest, Jesus.

Tj3,
The Catholic Church understand far more than you ever will simply because you are not a knowledgeable member of it.
I was once like you, a protester of the Catholic, but once I started to understand it I decided to understand more and studied it from a positive outlook rather than a closed mind. I became a Catholic.
I firmly believe that anyone who understands the Catholic Church and its teachings well will become a Catholic and never leave it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
The Catholic Church understand far more than you ever will simply because you are not a knowledgeable member of it.

The Apostles before your denomination understood more yet. But I note that your argument is an ad hominem argument.

IF you really understood the Catholic Church you would know that Christ's apostles were the first bishops of The Catholic Church and that is was not a denomination or considered to be a denomination until after Luther.
History and the Bible affirm that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

IF you really understood the Catholic Church you would know that Christ's apostles were the first bishops of The Catholic Church and that is was not a denomination or considered to be a denomination until after Luther.

Fred,

Just because you say it does not make it so, nor is it compelling, especially not when I have read what history and the Bible have to say.

Tj3,
I said what I said and I'll stand by that.
So let's get back to the topic.
OK?
Fred

Tj3,
I said what I said and I'll stand by that.
So let's get back to the topic.
OK?
Fred

I agree. You should get back on topic.

This is not the right thread to get into this in more detail, but if you really believe that, I have trouble believing that you have studied in any depth what scripture says about the nature of God.

And where in Scripture do you find the words "homoousios", "hypostasis", and "prosopon" applied to the Trinity? Where in Scripture do you find an explanation of the eternal ekporeusis of the Holy Spirit from the Father? Where in Scripture do you find the distinction between the Spirit's ekporeusis from the Father and the Spirit's proienai from the Father explained?

Then they did not understand Greek. Those who penned the Bible understood that the priesthood which added as a mediator between God and man (which is also the meaning of Pontiff) was done away with when Jesus died and was resurrected. That is why we now have a priesthood of all believers, because those who are saved can come before God in the name of our one and only high priest, Jesus.

Right, so you understand Greek better than all the early Church Fathers who were native speakers of the Greek of the NT? You, who don't know Greek. Interesting.

The priesthood of the Temple was superceded by the priesthood of the New Covenant, that's true. It is also true that Christ is the High Priest. It doesn't follow from this that there is anything wrong with a ministerial priesthood. In fact, the only early Christians that I can think of who rejected a ministerial priesthood were the Gnostics. (Again, we find you circulating warmed over Gnosticism and presenting it as some kind of authentic primitive Christianity). Or are you a Montanist: The Montanists also took a deflationary attitude toward the ordained priesthood. Well, sort of.

Once again, as with your bizarre and unsubstantiated claims about the origins of the Catholic Church, we find in your posts evidence of a profoundly deficient knowledge of the history of Christianity. This would be fine, but for the fact that you are so strident and persistent in advancing these unwarranted claims. There is simply too much documentary evidence of an ordained, ministerial, priesthood from the early centuries of Christianity to take at face value your claims that there is something illegitimate about it. The priesthood--the sort of priesthood that one finds today in Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Anglicanism--predates the canon of the NT itself.

It is clearly important to you to advance your claims about this "denomination" or that (although, so far I've only seen you press this in the case of Catholicism--I wonder why), but we've all recently seen you demonstrate your inability to make anything resembling a plausible case for these claims. It really would serve your interests to spend some time studying the work of serious historians (I gave you the names of a bunch of them on another thread recently) and the writing of the early Fathers (esp. Ignatius of Antioch). Doing so might help you to give your claims at least the veneer of plausibility. As it is, you just don't seem to have much of a clue about what was happening in Christianity from the late first century on.

Right, so you understand Greek better than all the early Church Fathers who were native speakers of the Greek of the NT? You, who don't know Greek. Interesting.

I find it interesting that you claim an unqiue translation of the word "presbuteros".


The priesthood of the Temple was superceded by the priesthood of the New Covenant, that's true.

Circular reasoning. You tramslate presbuteros as "priest" because you assume a NT priesthood, because it is necessary to support your denomination's theological system.


Once again, as with your bizarre and unsubstantiated claims about the origins of the Catholic Church, we find in your posts evidence of a profoundly deficient knowledge of the history of Christianity.

Circular reasoning - you assume that you are right, so you use abusive and demeaning comments against anyone who disagrees with you. Not a compelling approach.

Perhaps we could have a more value-added discussion when you can bring yoursefl to treat others who disagree with you with some respect.

Can you see the skills of pride? or are you asleep?

Gal6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

*****************

Speak only Truth:


1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Can you see the skills of pride? or are you asleep?

Gal6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

*****************

Speak only Truth:


1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I don't understand who are you aiming your comments at? And how are we to interpret this? Is this a good comment or bad comment?

JoeT

I find it interesting that you claim an unqiue translation of the word "presbuteros".

I didn't propose any translation of "presbuteros". I did, however, say that better translations transliterate it rather than translating it.


Circular reasoning. You tramslate presbuteros as "priest" because you assume a NT priesthood, because it is necessary to support your denomination's theological system.

Nope, nothing circular. Again, I didn't translate "presbuteros". I did point out in one of my posts that "presbuteros" is a word used in the NT that can mean priest. And it can--it is used this way outside the New Testament, by both pagan and early Christian writers.


Circular reasoning - you assume that you are right, so you use abusive and demeaning comments against anyone who disagrees with you. Not a compelling approach.

Nope, nothing demeaning either (don't be so thin skinned). Just pointing out that despite the great many opportunities that have been afforded you, you have yet to make anything remotely resembling a plausible case for your revisionist history of early Christianity. If you're going to continue to trot out your unsubstantiated claims about "denominations" you're just going to invite challenges. Particularly when you make demeaning remarks about the faith of others.


Perhaps we could have a more value-added discussion when you can bring yoursefl to treat others who disagree with you with some respect.

Again, "value-added" doesn't mean what you appear to think it means. And I've had plenty of respectful disagreements here. You're the one who seems to cry foul whenever someone points out that your claims are specious. Take my advice: Read some good historians and some Church Fathers. That will help you avoid the specious arguments that cause you so much grief. For instance: You should know by now that the doctrine of the Trinity isn't Biblical. The terms (homoousious, hypostasis, prosopon, etc.) are not terms that occur in the Bible; neither is the ekporeusis, etc. of the Spirit from the Father explained in the Bible. That's why you haven't been able to supply verse citations in response to my earlier query. If you were to moderate your claims, you might find yourself being challenged less often by others. You might also want to ease back on the denominations stuff, while you're at it, since you haven't anything to support your claims and those claims are often rather demeaning of the religious beliefs of others who read these discussions.

I didn't propose any translation of "presbuteros". I did, however, say that better translations transliterate it rather than translating it.

The fact remains, presbuteros does NOT mean priest. No matter long long you make your posts, no matter how many put-downs you post against those who disagree, you cannot change that reality.

And where in Scripture do you find the words "homoousios", "hypostasis", and "prosopon" applied to the Trinity? Where in Scripture do you find an explanation of the eternal ekporeusis of the Holy Spirit from the Father? Where in Scripture do you find the distinction between the Spirit's ekporeusis from the Father and the Spirit's proienai from the Father explained?

I have debated the Biblical basis of the trinity with Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals, pseudo-intellectuals, and others who have tried this same argument, but a couple of things that trip up this approach. The first is that the majority of the Bible was penned in Hebrew, not Greek, and second God is not restricted by the words that men insist that He uses. Nonetheless, scripture presents the trinity as clearly as any doctrine. Often those who oppose the Biblical basis for the trinity focus on such approaches such as the words, while ignoring the content of scripture itself.

I am surprised at a person professing to be a Catholic arguing against the Biblical basis for the trinity. Many of your fellow professing Catholics have stood with me in defending the Biblical basis of the trinity.

I don't understand who are you aiming your comments at? And how are we to interpret this? Is this a good comment or bad comment?

JoeT

The comment is The Word of God.. His Truth telling us all that it is "The Spirit" that can be sown in any who accept, and hear His Truth, and from that Truth each reap everlasting life.

The first to teach all people forever, and anoint each... is the Spirit. God reveals unto who he chooses. To lie, and say this is not true is to mock God.

Gal6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


Note: ye need not that any man teach you

Because the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

God's Words speaks the Truth:
1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


God's Word of Truth!
Jeremiah 9:4 Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.
Jeremiah 9:5 And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, [and] weary themselves to commit iniquity.

Speak only Truth.. The Word of God

The comment is The Word of God.. His Truth telling us all that it is "The Spirit" that can be sown in any who accept, and hear His Truth, and from that Truth each reap everlasting life.

The first to teach all people forever, and anoint each... is the Spirit. God reveals unto who he chooses. To lie, and say this is not true is to mock God.

Gal6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


Note: ye need not that any man teach you

Because the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

God's Words speaks the Truth:
1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


God's Word of Truth!
Jeremiah 9:4 Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.
Jeremiah 9:5 And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, [and] weary themselves to commit iniquity.

Speak only Truth.. The Word of God


So, who lied? …


JoeT

Akoue,
You gave some good advice to Tj3.
I hope he takes it.
Fred

So, who lied? …

JoeT

This discussion went from all believers are priests, to the term "ministerial priests. And then there are the episkopoi, bishops, and diaconate.

#7 posting by Akoue: While it is true that Christ is the High Priest of the Church, this in no way militates against an ordained priesthood, established and expanded through the laying on of hands.

On to the Trinity, and the fact is the term is not in the scripture.

#9 posted by Tj3: Presbuteros is more properly translated as "elder". You'd be hard pressed to find a translation of the Bible translating presbuteros as priest other than Bible specific to Catholic denominations.

From posting # 2 from Tj3 thr posting # 5 by DeMaria, and #6 also: everyone agreed that believers are priests . So why would it be hard pressed to think of an elder as a priest, unless of course you think elers are not believers.

My point is that with this entire discussion, the reality still remain that God is above all.

And so all of this is least of importance, and because it is least important, in the end we are told the last will be first...

Man can get so puffed up in pridefullness towards someone other then what is reality. In doing so they mock God...

There is only "One" of importance written in scripture ( John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.)

As is written: Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Can it be seen and heard in scripture, how God tells us man is least?
That man, is only seen in his puffed up pride, and foolishness to think he is more then what he actually is? YES I know it does..
1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
God's Word of Truth!
Jeremiah 9:4 Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.
Jeremiah 9:5 And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, [and] weary themselves to commit iniquity.

~Trust in God

sndbay,
I think we all agree that God IS above all and the Jesus IS THE high priest of all.
But as others have here said true Christians are priests and so are the Christian elders.
Some are ordained as the bible tells us by laying on of the hands.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
I think we all agree that God IS above all and the Jesus IS THE high priest of all.
But as others have here said true Christians are priests and so are the Christian elders.

But it does NOT follow that anyone but Jesus is a priest over over others. The office of a priest is to be a bridge between man and God, and scripture is clear that there is only one mediator between man and God and that is Jesus.

The reason that there is a priesthood of believers is that we are each able to come directly before God ourselves without needing to got to another priest. That in and of itself puts the rest the belief in the need of priests in the church.

But it does NOT follow that anyone but Jesus is a priest over over others. The office of a priest is to be a bridge between man and God, and scripture is clear that there is only one mediator between man and God and that is Jesus.

The office of the priest/believers are to plant seed. Each can example that by feeding Truth of The Word. The Word being of Christ Jesus, the begotten Son of God, worthy to follow, and hear His voice which is found in what is written. And walking as He walked in righteousness according to His Father's Will. There is only One mediator, the Holy Spirit that was in Christ as he can also be within us.



The reason that there is a priesthood of believers is that we are each able to come directly before God ourselves without needing to got to another priest. That in and of itself puts the rest the belief in the need of priests in the church.

More over would be, that The Holy Spirit will come to us and anoint us, Christ stands at the door and knocks. The Holy Spirit resides within us that do follow, and will keep us in His Ways.

Some men will say, God will keep you in all your ways... That is a lie! Because the Spirit resided within those that follow.. Christ did show us of satan's work in enticing words.

Hear Christ words: "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" Note: To walk outside the light is to tempt God...

Hear Christ words, "Man does not live by bread alone, but in every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" The anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you.... (note he has come to you)... then anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you.... (note within you resided The Holy Spirit)ye need not that any man teach you.. (For He will guide you in His way) Psalms 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

Each should question, what are thy ways when you walk in Christ? Thy ways are rigtheousness, the meat of The Word. Doing as Christ fulfilled for us to do, according to His way, His voice as one in Christ, just as Christ was one in His Father...

We must go beyond the milk of babes seeking His Ways

sndbay,
I think we all agree that God IS above all and the Jesus IS THE high priest of all.
But as others have here said true Christians are priests and so are the Christian elders.
Some are ordained as the bible tells us by laying on of the hands.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Discern and watch every word...

Did the scribe give the impression to the people that each knew scripture and the Word of God. Did each follow the Word of God?

Remember Fred what you had asked on another thread.. What did Christ know of man? Christ did know of the scribes which were sown with satan's sons as tares.

The Field of the World

Remember the parable of the tares... it is written and is His Words to hear.

Truth:

Christ is the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls. ( I Peter 2:25) Christ by whose stripes you were healed.

Scripture says, For we are labourers together with God: you are God's husbandry (a cultivated field), you are God's building. God increases as He Wilt, you can plant and water but neither are anything except that which God gives the increase. Which goes back to watch with causion the field of the world.

Tj3,
So you believe but I do not.
I believe that Jesus selected His apostles for a purpose that reached beyond the time of His sacrifice.
That is to be the bishops (therefore priests) of His Church.
Nothing you can say or do will change my belief on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
So you believe but I do not.

Yes, Fred, I do believe the Bible.


I believe that Jesus selected His apostles for a purpose that reached beyond the time of His sacrifice.

They helped to set the foundations of Christianity.


That is to be the bishops (therefore priests) of His Church.

You have not shown me any reason believe that a bishop is a priest.


Nothing you can say or do will change my belief on that.


Or, as it often seems... anything else :p

Tj3,
I also believe the bible.
Also if a Christian bishop is not a priest in you mind what are they, chopped liver?

Tj3,
I also believe the bible.
Also if a Christian bishop is not a priest in you mind what are they, chopped liver?

A Christian bishop is what scripture says that they are, leaders in the Christian church. If you think that they are specifically priests, why not just show us where scripture says that?

Tj3,
I have no need to show you anything from the bible seen as you claim to know it so well.
I do NOT want to get into an argument with you about this.
I told you what I believe.
Either accept that of forget it.
Fred

Tj3,
I have no need to show you anything from the bible seen as you claim to know it so well.

I guess neither of us know anyplace that scripture says that bishops are priests.

This discussion went from all believers are priests, to the term "ministerial priests. And then there are the episkopoi, bishops, and diaconate.

#7 posting by Akoue: While it is true that Christ is the High Priest of the Church, this in no way militates against an ordained priesthood, established and expanded through the laying on of hands.

And Akoue was correct in his understanding of scripture and his statement regarding that understanding. So where is the lie in this? Or, is it that you just simply don't like the response. It conflicts somehow with what your subjective view of the Scripture.

We can have a view that all Christian faiths are equal, correct, and efficient in their duty to the flock, except, except, except Catholics. Is this what I'm reading?


On to the Trinity, and the fact is the term is not in the scripture.

#9 posted by Tj3: Presbuteros is more properly translated as "elder". You'd be hard pressed to find a translation of the Bible translating presbuteros as priest other than Bible specific to Catholic denominations.

The first line in the quote above doesn't have anything to do with the 2nd paragraph.

You may have misunderstood one thing Akoue said about homoousious, and thought it wasn't correct. He was stating that the word Hmoousious is not found in scripture, yet we believe it to be true. This is true statement. For your information homoousious means 'consubstantial' or 'one in being'. This is the way you and I both think of the Trinity. Christ is “one in being” with the Father.

As to your second paragraph, presubteros was taken to mean ordained priests from Christ's commissioning of his Kingdom. The early church, (whether or not you want to call it Catholic or not, whether you can pick it out of Scripture or not), had ordained priests, bishops, deacons, and doctors. I fully realize your angst here; you have to ask yourself, if the early Catholic Church had ordained ministers then why not the Protestant and Evangelical Churches have ordained ministers. It could rightly be something you should consider.

Again I ask, who lied? Different views were given but no lies. Again, I guess this holds for all other Christian faiths except for Catholics – their views are to be taken as lies? Surly you're a bigger man than that?


From posting # 2 from Tj3 thr posting # 5 by DeMaria, and #6 also: everyone agreed that believers are priests . So why would it be hard pressed to think of an elder as a priest, unless of course you think elers are not believers.

Yes, we all become participants in the sacrifice at mass. The Jewish religion held that only the priest gave up the sacrifice, only the priest entered the Holy of Holies. The mass is said in such a way so that all baptized Christians become priest-like in offering the sacrifice, and partaking in the Eucharist. Yet, it takes an ordained priest to offer the sacrifice; anybody else and the Eucharist becomes invalid.

So, where is the lie? Or, is it 'Catholic' you object to.


My point is that with this entire discussion, the reality still remain that God is above all.

Agreed. Even still, you're being too myopic, nobody said that God wasn't the focus. In fact all of Catholic faith centers on Christ, centers on God, centers on the Holy Spirit. So where is the lie?


And so all of this is least of importance, and because it is least important, in the end we are told the last will be first

Man can get so puffed up in pridefullness towards someone other then what is reality. In doing so they mock God...



This is strictly an opinion of what you 'think' Catholicism is about. “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing.” -foreward to Radio Replies Vol. 1, page ix, Archbishop Fulton Sheen. And I don't fault you for this; living less than 50 miles north of you, I fully understand how the misconception comes to play. It's OK not to be Catholic, but I really don't know how you can have a full loving relationship in faith without what's offered 'inside' the Church. What I'm saying is that I don't know how you can love God and hate His Kingdom. But, you work that one out; I've already made my bed in a Catholic pew, kneeling pad and all.



There is only "One" of importance written in scripture... (John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

And to live it ALL, FULLY, as best a man can, is to be Catholic.


As is written: Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Can it be seen and heard in scripture, how God tells us man is least?

That man, is only seen in his puffed up pride, and foolishness to think he is more then what he actually is? YES I know it does..

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
God's Word of Truth!

I was seduced by God's absolute truth long ago, thanks be to God. I was seduced by the fact that God is Truth and all truth resides in God and Christ is the head of the Catholic Church, His Kingdom. No peff here, no dilutions, all references are checked and proven; my faith is rooted firmly in the fertile ground of 2,000 years of orthodox Catholic faith. (notice the little 'o')


Jeremiah 9:4 Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.
Jeremiah 9:5 And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, [and] weary themselves to commit iniquity.

~Trust in God

This is why I rely on the authority of the Magisterium so my neighbor doesn't influence my faith in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - Christ's Kingdom on Earth.

So, where is the lie?

JoeT

This is why I rely on the authority of the Magisterium so my neighbor doesn’t influence my faith in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - Christ's Kingdom on Earth.


This is where we disagree. I rely upon God's word rather than the teachings of a denomination.

This is where we disagree. i rely upon God's word rather than the teachings of a denomination.


In the division of taxonomy are life, domain, kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, and species in descending order. That is to say, species are subgroups of genus, genus along with all the subgroups of species are subgroups of family, etc, etc. Since all things are created, matter and life along with all the subgroups are of God. Since the Divine is the domain of Christ, all kingdoms along with subgroups belong to Christ. Since Christ is the prince of the kingdom and since the body of Christ, the Church, is a kingdom in the order of religions. Since the existence of all other Christian religions relies on the Church they rightly would be subgroups of the Church. Thus, ‘denomination’ is common to your species and ‘Kingdom’ is common to the Roman Catholic Church in the order of Christian faiths.

JoeT

Joe,
Great answers in that post.
I went to Mass in a nearby City this evening and was served by a marvelous humble priest.
Everyone in The Church was a priest, but only on was ordained.
I notice that some people do not understand The Church's teaching or the Magisterium and what it does or who leads and inspires it.
That's sad.
I sometime wonder if they purposely do not understand on purpose.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

THE ORDAINED PRIEST

As you may recall, Christ stated that he didn't come to destroy Judaism and the law, but rather to instill the law in the heart. “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil”. Matt 5:17. Consider this in view of Old Testament priests who exercised a position of intermediary between man and God through the sacrifices.: "for every high priest taken from among men, is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins" (cf. Hebrews 5:1) Consequently, Christ didn't abolish priesthood in the New Testament, but rather gave them the New Sacramental tools with which to mediate fulfilling salvific graces. The ordained priest dispenses saving graces through the sacraments.

As to the etymology of 'presbyteros' , 2,000 years of Catholic history has taught that the meaning in English is 'ordained priest'. The writings of all the Church Doctors understood presbyteros in this light, but we'll save the quotes for another thread. A priest is ordained, by lying on of hands, by bishops, which in turn get their authority from the successors of the Apostles. In the hierarchy of the Church this puts priests immediately after Bishops (which, by the way, are scripturally defined, along with deacons and doctors). Ordination is no small sacrament because it confers powers as opposed to rights. Such powers include celebrating mass, remission of sins, teaching, and administering of graces in the sacraments.

JoeT

Since the Divine is the domain of Christ, all kingdoms along with subgroups belong to Christ. Since Christ is the prince of the kingdom and since the body of Christ, the Church, is a kingdom in the order of religions. Since the existence of all other Christian religions relies on the Church they rightly would be subgroups of the Church. Thus, 'denomination' is common to your species and 'Kingdom' is common to the Roman Catholic Church in the order of Christian faiths.


Though all kingdoms and subgroups belong to Christ, not all follow what He says in His word. Some may follow in whole, some may follow in part, but just because all kingdoms and churches are under his authority as God, it is wrong to say that everything done by any kingdom or church is automatically of God. That is, more often than not, not true.

Second, even in churches where they do teach sound doctrine, not all who are in those churches are saved.

Third, Jesus Himself said that not all who profess to follow Him actually do.

Thus your whole thesis falls apart.

THE ORDAINED PRIEST

As you may recall, Christ stated that he didn't come to destroy Judaism and the law, but rather to instill the law in the heart. “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil”. Matt 5:17. Consider this in view of Old Testament priests who exercised a position of intermediary between man and God through the sacrifices.: "for every high priest taken from among men, is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins" (cf. Hebrews 5:1) Consequently, Christ didn't abolish priesthood in the New Testament, but rather gave them the New Sacramental tools with which to mediate fulfilling salvific graces. The ordained priest dispenses saving graces through the sacraments.


A couple of problems with this logic:

1) If you are suggesting that the priesthood of your denomination is an extension of the OT priesthood, then they must all be of the Jewish tribe of Levi. I know for a fact that this neither true, nor a condition of entering the catholic priesthood.

2) The power of the OT priesthood to act as the mediator between God and man was ended when Jesus died and was resurrected, and when the curtain was torn which separated the Holy of Holies from the people. No longer was their a barrier, but with Jesus as the High Priest of our confession, we can come directly before the throne of God.

Heb 7:28
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
NKJV


Heb 7:22-24
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. 23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
NKJV


As to the etymology of 'presbyteros' , 2,000 years of Catholic history has taught that the meaning in English is 'ordained priest'. The writings of all the Church Doctors understood presbyteros in this light, but we'll save the quotes for another thread. A priest is ordained, by lying on of hands, by bishops, which in turn get their authority from the successors of the Apostles. In the hierarchy of the Church this puts priests immediately after Bishops (which, by the way, are scripturally defined, along with deacons and doctors). Ordination is no small sacrament because it confers powers as opposed to rights. Such powers include celebrating mass, remission of sins, teaching, and administering of graces in the sacraments.


Again, this is specific to the teachings of your denomination, which by necessity must defend their practice of ordaining priests. It is your denomination (and affiliated denominations) that add the word "priest" to the definition of presbuteros.

Tell me, if God meant "priest" and not "elder) (as presbuteros rightly means), why did God not us the word "hiereus" which does mean priest and which is used throughout the NT with respect to the Jewish priesthood and with respect to Jesus as our high priest, but not one to any office in the leadership of the Christian church?

Joe,
1 Tim 3: 15"the household of God, which is The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
Therefor you are right.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Joe,
1 Tim 3: 15"the household of God, which is The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."


1 Tim 3:15-16
15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
NKJV

What does scripture say?

Rev 3:12
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
NKJV

So we see that individuals who "overcome" are the pillars. Who are those who overcome?

1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
NKJV

1 John 2:14
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.
NKJV

There is much more in scripture, but it is clear that it those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them. If the word of God abides in them, then the word of God preceded the church, and the pillars of the church are the individuals who are saved, which agrees with what we read in scripture:

1 Cor 12:26-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
NKJV

The true church therefore is not a manmade organization, but it is the body of Christ, of overcomers, those who are saved and have the word of God abiding in them.

The physical church building represents the church insofar as it has the "pillars" to uphold the word of God within the church, if not, like any building without pillars, it falls. Further, the foundation is Jesus:

1 Cor 3:11-12
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV

And where the pillars are absent, so is the foundation absent and again, the building must fall. No church organization/denomination can stand as a Church of God unless it has Jesus Christ as it's foundation and those who are saved and in whom the word of God abides as it's pillars.

Therefore the Church of the Living God is the body of all believers, not a denomination.

That does not change the fact that Jesus founded His Church on earth with Peter as its first leader and gave to Peter the keys to heaven.

Now arcura , what does facts have to do with it, if you are anti catholic and your denomination teaches against it.

That does not change the fact that Jesus founded His Church on earth with Peter as its first leader and gave to Peter the keys to heaven.

Fred,

When I have your word versus what scripture says, I am afraid I have to go with what scripture says, which places Jesus as the one at the head of the church, and Jesus as the one with the keys.

Fr_Chuck,
Excellent point.
Well made.
I go by what Scripture says by they interpret it to fit what they want it to say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

When I have your word versus what scripture says, I am afraid I have to go with what scripture says, which places Jesus as the one at the head of the church, and Jesus as the one with the keys.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

What were these keys? We see that the Pharisees had the keys:

Luke 11:52
52 Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered."
NKJV

The keys were knowledge, but what knowledge would bind people and what knowledge was it that the Pharisees did not use to loose themselves by entering in? It was the key of the truth and specifically the truth of the gospel. The Pharisees were the priests who had the key of truth by which they could guide the people into salvation, and instead of losing the keys to open the door, they bound the key, took it away from the people and bound themselves by not using it.

We see here in Matthew 16:

Matt 16:19-20
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
NKJV

Jesus gave the keys to the disciples. We see in Matthew 16:13 that he was speaking to the disciples:

Matt 16:13
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
NKJV

The gospel was not given just to one man, but to the disciples to use to take into the word to bring salvation to the people. Note that even the Pharisees were not given the keys, but Luke 11:52 says that they took the keys. Who from? It was from the people of Israel. The keys were never intended to be in the hands of only some people or one person, but Jesus took the keys from the Pharisees and gave them to the disciples, people who had already entered into their salvation and who knew that to use the keys, they had to give them to the people, that they too might enter. If they use the keys, people will no longer be bound and can enter and be saved. It is the keys of knowledge that loose men to be free in Christ and be no longer bound by sin.

Wondergirl,
Right you are.
The keys were the keys to heaven just as Scripture says.
In olden days of like of King david the keys to the treasury were given to the prime minister.
When Jesus gave the keys to heaven to Peter that made him Christ's prime minister on earth.
Don't let anyone tell you different.
If you do you will be mislead.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

And what does the "bind" and "loose" mean, arcura?

wondergirl,
Right you are.
The keys were the keys to heaven just as Scripture says.
In olden days of like of King david the keys to the treasury were given to the prime minister.
When Jesus gave the keys to heaven to Peter that made him Christ's prime minister on earth.

Except scripture does not say that.

BTW, Jesus is holding the Keys in Revelation.

Rev 1:18-19
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

The Imposition of the Hands of the Priesthood

The primary role, the very essence of priesthood is to perform sacrifice. A sacrifice we are invited to partake, the sacrifice rejected by non-Catholics. Aaron chose the tribe of Levi act not as priests but as servants or assistants to priest. In a ceremony at almost the same time Aaron was anointed high-priest. (Cf. Exodus 29:1-37; 40:12 sqq.; Leviticus 8:1-36). In David's Tabernacle tradition there were four classes of Levites; servants of the priests, officials and judges, porters, and finally musicians and singers (1 Chronicles 23:3 sqq.). After the Babylonian exile the Levite priesthood died out. A new priesthood was established for the Herod's tradition of the Temple. Priests did the washing, cleaning of the temple, renewal of the proposition loaves, filling the oil-lamps and the menorah. Priests in the Herod's tradition offered the sacrifices each day. In 70 A.D. the sacrificial service performed by the priesthood ceased. What grew from this was a rabbinic system where rabbis no longer performed priestly sacrifices, but rather merely became teachers of the law.

In the Catholic teaching priests enjoy the fullness of ordination, primi ordinis. Deacon is an attendant to the priest with no priestly powers. This was foreshadowed by Melchisedech (cf. Genesis 14:18 sqq.) who offered bread and wine. The priesthood of Melchisedech was a prophetic reference to the Last Supper and the Mass where the bread and wine are sacrificed, changed into the 'real presence' of Christ.

The main testimony of the New Testament lies in the account of the institution of the Eucharist, and most clearly in the words of consecration spoken over the chalice. This takes place in the consecration of the bread and wine which too is Scripturally formulated.

Matthew 26:28: Touto gar estin to aima mou to tes [kaines] diathekes to peri pollon ekchynnomenon eis aphesin amartion. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

Mark 14:24: Touto estin to aima mou tes kaines diathekes to yper pollon ekchynnomenon. This is my blood of the new testament which shall be shed for many.

Luke 22:20: Touto to poterion he kaine diatheke en to aimati mou, to yper ymon ekchynnomenon. This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25: Touto to poterion he kaine diatheke estin en to emo aimati. This chalice is the new testament in my blood.

The Council of Trent makes it clear that without priest the Church of Christ (Roman Catholic Church) wouldn't exist. "If any one shall say that in the New Testament there is no visible and external priesthood nor any power of consecrating and offering the Body and Blood of the Lord, as well as of remitting and retaining sins, but merely the office and bare ministry of preaching the Gospel, let him be anathema." The reason shold be obvious, it is the priest who offers the sacrifice, without the ordained priest we are without the Holy Eucharist, and without the Eucharist there is no Church. Christianity becomes story tellers with no Real Presence of Chirst. “Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 2:5)

The evidence is clear that the early Roman Catholic Church ordained priests taught by the original Twelve and their successors , “Then they fasting and praying and imposing their hands upon them, sent them away.” ( Acts 13:3) St. Luke's description of the ordination was simple, “And when they had ordained to them priests in every church and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed.” ( Acts 14:22) And Paul tells Timothy not to “Neglect not the grace that is in thee [the authority to ordain priests], which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.” (1 Tim 4:14) A special order of the simple presbyterii requiring the laying on of hands. A special authority, not taken on lightly, rather fulfillment of prophecy. And further, Paul advises not to “Impose not hands lightly upon any man, neither be partaker of other men's sins. Keep thyself chaste.” (1 Tim 5:22) And again, “For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands” (2 Timothy 1:6)

Consequently, not only is Peter leader of our Church, leader of all Christianity, but it's though his authority that we are graced with this special order of presbyterii.

Deo Grátias; Thnaks be to God.


JoeT

Wondergirl,
In that Scripture bind is to be bound, that is tied or fastened.
Loose, however, is the opposite of that.
Compare that to not forgiven (bind) and forgiven (loose).
I went to confession Saturday eve just before Mass.
In the name of Jesus Christ my sins were loosed (forgiven).
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Lost Keys?

Talk about losing the key to understanding. “Woe to you lawyers, for you have taken away the key of knowledge,” hardly equates to “the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven".

JoeT

Joe,
Thanks for that very good post on the priesthood.
I was looking for references to that and you put it all together for me and others here.
On a side note about priests or Bishop informed us that 130 new Catholic converts will be brought into the Church here in this area of Montana on Easter with a grand slam of graces, baptism, confession, confirmation, and the Holy Ercharist.
This year there are serveral thousand of adults alone, nation wide, going to go through the same thing.
The Church is growing well with new adult converts.
The Coming Home Network (founded by a Catholic convert) is a great help in that field.
The Coming Home Network International (http://www.chnetwork.org/)
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Joe,

I understand your denominational teaching, but no matter how long you make your post, the fact remains scripture neither supports the contention that Peter was head of either the Church or any denomination, and scripture does not support the contention that there was any office of priest in the Church. The word is simply not used anywhere ibn the NT is that context.

Lost Keys?

Talk about losing the key to understanding. “Woe to you lawyers, for you have taken away the key of knowledge,” hardly equates to “the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven".

JoeT

So how does one get into the Kingdom, Joe, if one does not have knowledge of the gospel? Do you know of a different way to be saved?

So how does one get into the Kingdom, Joe, if one does not have knowledge of the gospel? Do you know of a different way to be saved?
That's not the correct question to ask, Tom. The keys that Jesus gave to his disciples had nothing to do with being saved or not.

That's not the correct question to ask, Tom. The keys that Jesus gave to his disciples had nothing to do with being saved or not.

Really? And what exactly do you think that the Kingdom of heaven is?

Really? And what exactly do you think that the Kingdom of heaven is?
That's not the question.

From Luther's Small Catechism --

The use of the Keys is that special power and right which Christ gave to his church on earth, to forgive the sins of penitent sinners but to refuse forgiveness to the impenitent as long as they do not repent.

Where is this written?

The holy Evangelist John writes in chapter 20, "Jesus breathed on his disciples and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

How does a Christian congregation use the Keys?
A Christian congregation with its called servant of Christ uses the Keys in accordance with Christ's command by forgiving those who repent of their sin and are willing to amend, and by excluding from the congregation those who are plainly impenitent that they may repent. I believe that, when this is done, it is as valid and certain in heaven also, as if Christ, our dear Lord, dealt with us himself.

Where is this written?

Jesus says in Matthew, chapter 1, "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

That's not the question.

But it is.

I am not Lutheran so I will go by what scripture says, not your denominational theology.

The keys of Kingdom of heaven is what the verse refers to.

Matt 16:19-20
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
NKJV

Please answer the question - what do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?

Wondergirl,
You are right again.
The Scripture is clerar that the keys to heaven are in relation to the forgiveness or not forgiveness of sins.
Any other interpretation of that is in error.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The Scripture is clerar that the keys to heaven are in relation to the forgiveness or not forgiveness of sins.


I am glad to see that you agree with me that the keys refer to salvation.

Wondergirl said:


That's not the correct question to ask, Tom. The keys that Jesus gave to his disciples had nothing to do with being saved or not.

I added the red colour to the lettering to show where she said that the keys had nothing to do with salvation.

Though she is right that the keys were given to the disciples and not just Peter.

But it is.

I am not Lutheran so I will go by what scripture says, not your denominational theology.

The keys of Kingdom of heaven is what the verse refers to.

Matt 16:19-20
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
NKJV

Please answer the question - what do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?
It's keys to the kingdom of heaven. On Pentecost, Peter first opened the doors and declared the conditions of which men could have their sins forgiven, be bound or loosed, and thus enter into the Church on earth. Seven years later at Caesarea he declared the same conditions to the Gentiles. While Peter took the lead, the keys were given to all the apostles.

Jesus Himself, and only He, has given us the kingdom of heaven with His sacrifice on the cross. The apostles merely unlocked or locked the door into the kingdom.

The apostles are no longer with us. Who has the keys now?

Joe,
Thanks for that very good post on the priesthood.
I was looking for references to that and you put it all together for me and others here.
On a side note about priests or Bishop informed us that 130 new Catholic converts will be brought into the Church here in this area of Montana on Easter with a grand slam of graces, baptism, confession, confirmation, and the Holy Ercharist.
This year there are serveral thousand of adults alone, nation wide, going to go through the same thing.
The Church is growing well with new adult converts.
The Coming Home Network (founded by a Catholic convert) is a great help in that field.
The Coming Home Network International (http://www.chnetwork.org/)
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thanks, I value your comments.

Catechumens who are fortunate enough to schedule their first communion during Easter are especially graced. Unlike some of our non-Catholic friends, we cannot simply say ‘I’m Catholic’ and suddenly become dubbed with graces of being Catholic. It takes a little schooling. Catechumens learn that our faith is observance of the Divine law, as Christ said, “all things whatever I have commanded you", Matthew 28:20 . As I’ve been told, this is a lot for ‘bible only’ Christians to ingest since its counter to their traditions; i.e. viewing it as surrendering their right to interpret Scripture. Consequently, when asked, I try always to give a safe answer without being argumentative – and you know that’s hard for me. (My wife says I’d argue the bark off a telephone pole). Us born Catholics tend to get hung up on norms and traditions which can be misunderstood by the convert. Catechumens, or for that matter anybody, shouldn’t come to view us as “Italian Catholics” always arguing with “Irish Catholics” over which tradition is best. But, of course we all know the Italian traditions are far superior; not that I’m bias in any way – well at least the spaghetti is superior.

Yes, I once followed Marcus Grodi quite a bit. And whenever I can get EWTN on the television I like to watch his program. But, the down side, he plays strictly to the protestant converts. There are times when my interests drift to other topics of our faith. I used to have his book ‘Pope Fiction’. (At least I think it was Grodi’s).

JoeT

It's keys to the kingdom of heaven.

You are altering the words. Scripture says:

"the keys of the kingdom of heaven"

But I don't see that it makes any difference. However, since we agree that they keys refer to the kingdom of heaven. Please answer the question.

What do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?

What do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?
I answered that in post #79.

Time for bed, am a working girl. Good night.

I answered that in post #79.

Time for bed, am a working girl. Good night.

No, you did not. You gave additional details which appears to contradict earlier comments about what and how the keys are used. Earlier you said that they had nothing to do with salvation, and in post 79 you appear to be saying that they do relate to salvation. So the original question remains - what do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?


I am not sure why you are avoiding the question.

Tj3,
Yes, forgiveness of sins are necessary for salvation.
I'm glad you agree with that.
Fred

Joe,
Yes there is historical evidence that there were priest in the early Church.
Example, Peter was the first Bishop of Rome, therefore a priest.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Who has the keys now?

It is told in scripture who holds the Keys... and it also tells us who the key is which will open the gates of heaven which no man can shut.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

The church which holds to the Key of David... Who is the key of David? = Christ, and His hertigate by flesh that walked on earth. The Word that was made flesh to show us the way. The Word which we are to eat, the bread of Life. The keys are Chirst's ways which He has shown us.. We are to walk in Christ as did Christ walk in His Father's will. There is no other way!

The angel told God of this church who by their works held true the Keys: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

The reward for that fellowship in Christ that hast kept the word of God's patience, So God wilt keep them from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Revelation 3:10)

Revelation 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Though all kingdoms and subgroups belong to Christ, not all follow what He says in His word. Some may follow in whole, some may follow in part, but just because all kingdoms and churches are under his authority as God, it is wrong to say that everything done by any kingdom or church is automatically of God. That is, more often than not, not true.

Second, even in churches where they do teach sound doctrine, not all who are in those churches are saved.

Third, Jesus Himself said that not all who profess to follow Him actually do.

Thus your whole thesis falls apart.

So true, and it is shown in scripture in the words to the the churches. Each are weak, but one did rest on Christ, and remained in His strength holding true to His words. Rather then the norm who teach the fellowship of man, and make void the word of God. They do tempt God, and do try His patiences.
And a second one will suffer tribulation but are promises if they remain faithful shall not be hurt of the seond death.
The remaining 5 must repent!

Christ made us kings and priest unto God His Father. (Revelation 1:6) To Christ be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Joe,
1 Tim 3: 15"the household of God, which is The Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
Therefor you are right.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

1 Tim 3:15
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth..

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.



Luke 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Deny himself = deny man's ways

take up his cross = suffer to the righteousness of God's will

follow me = as Christ walked in his Father's Will

This would be as Christ has shown for fellowship as priests in the house of God so to do.. all glory and praise to Christ Jesus...

A couple of problems with this logic:

The power of the OT priesthood to act as the mediator between God and man was ended when Jesus died and was resurrected, and when the curtain was torn which separated the Holy of Holies from the people. No longer was their a barrier, but with Jesus as the High Priest of our confession, we can come directly before the throne of God.

Heb 7:28
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
NKJV


Heb 7:22-24
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. 23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
NKJV


Exactly...Because this includes any church that leads with authority should not, even in weakness, think they can change what is written to include man's ways. Because Christ clearly stated to follow His way doing the will of God. We are to do what is pleasing in God's eye, and God the Father was known to say He was pleased in Christ His begotten Son.

I Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Shepherds protect and lead their sheep .. anointed by Christ, those who follow ...

I Cor 3:6-7 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

I Cor 3:8-9 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

husbandry = the field of the world = all belong to the Creator who is the power and strength over our weaknesses.

Agreed. Even still, you're being too myopic, nobody said that God wasn't the focus.

Short sighted or myopic is in not being able to see according to His divine power which gives unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue. That by Christ and all that He has promised we might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Also giving us all diligence, to add to our faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge, And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Clearly one who sees that it is Christ that gives all is "not short sighted"..

2 Peter 2:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.




In fact all of Catholic faith centers on Christ, centers on God, centers on the Holy Spirit. So where is the lie?

JoeT
The lie is found in words that void, and change what is written. That teach something other then what Christ has promised. In words that do not proclaim Christ over all power on earth. Kings and priests under His direction and authority to labor according to His ways. Christ giving His angels charge over their works and labors, to keep them in His ways. The Holy Spirit is with us, which is a reality of life

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Joe,
Yes there is historical evidence that there were priest in the early Church.
Example, Peter was the first Bishop of Rome, therefore a priest.



Oh Fred, you keep up with the old line. Not only is there no historical or Biblical evidence, even if he were a bishop of Rome, that would not make him a priest.

sndbay,
You said, "The lie is found in words that void, and change what is written. That teach something other then what Christ has promised. In words that do not proclaim Christ over all power on earth. Kings and priests under His direction and authority to labor according to His ways. Christ giving His angels charge over their works and labors, to keep them in His ways. The Holy Spirit is with us, which is a reality of life"
So who do you claim is telling the lie?
It certainly is NOT The Catholic Church for it DOES "proclaim Christ over all power on earth. Kings and priests under His direction and authority to labor according to His ways. Christ giving His angels charge over their works and labors, to keep them in His ways. The Holy Spirit is with us, which is a reality of life"
Peace and kindness,
Fred

It certainly is NOT The Catholic Church for it DOES "proclaim Christ over all power on earth. Kings and priests under His direction and authority to labor according to His ways. Christ giving His angels charge over their works and labors, to keep them in His ways. The Holy Spirit is with us, which is a reality of life"
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Do you agree with these statements? Or will you join me in saying that these statements are wrong?

"And shall we scruple to ask her to save us, when the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary"

"...we shall be heard more quickly, and be thus preserved, if we have recourse to mary and call on her holy name, than we should if we called on the name of Jesus our Saviour;"

Wondergirl, just in case you are awake and home from work, I am still interested in your answer.


No, you did not. You gave additional details which appears to contradict earlier comments about what and how the keys are used. Earlier you said that they had nothing to do with salvation, and in post 79 you appear to be saying that they do relate to salvation. So the original question remains - what do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?

Tj3,
I ask Mary to play to Jesus for me some time.
That's it.
That's what I believe.
I believe that the saints can pray for us and Mary is a special one of them being the Mother of God the Son.
Fred

Tj3,
I ask Mary to play to Jesus for me some time.
That's it.
That's what I believe.
I believe that the saints can pray for us and Mary is a special one of them being the Mother of God the Son.
Fred


Then are you saying that you agree with these statements?

"And shall we scruple to ask her to save us, when the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary"

"...we shall be heard more quickly, and be thus preserved, if we have recourse to mary and call on her holy name, than we should if we called on the name of Jesus our Saviour;"

The lie is found in words that void, and change what is written. That teach something other then what Christ has promised. In words that do not proclaim Christ over all power on earth. Kings and priests under His direction and authority to labor according to His ways. Christ giving His angels charge over their works and labors, to keep them in His ways. The Holy Spirit is with us, which is a reality of life

Change what is written? Nobody has changed what was written. No, more cunning games are played by forces that oppose God. Why change the writing, after all there must be thousands, likely millions, of copies of Scripture. Can you imagine running around the world with pen and eraser scrubbing out words and writing in new ones? But, why rub out written words when you can simply change the meaning of the written word? Better still, make the words subjective, different meaning for different folks.

Too smart for that? Consider this. The Holy Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ, its leaders chosen by Christ, Her scriptures inspired by God, universally ministering One faith to 50 or more generations, always teaching the same One, Holy, and Apostolic faith in Christ. Not for a few decades, nor a few centuries, rather for two millennia. Each day, each month, each year, faithfully ministering to the Divine institution of the Mass for two millennia. Proof of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is reveled in both Scripture and Tradition.

Two thousand years, 50 generations, two hundred decades; this spans across most of mankind's history on this little green marble; a length of time nearly impossible for man to grasp. And for all of these millennia we have understood and believed in the One, Holy Catholic, and Apostolic Church. And now, you would suggest that it's a lie. If so then our God is indeed cruel, because it would be His lie. But, rather than re-write the words, Wyclif, Luther, and others chose simply to change the meaning. Why with their god-like wisdom, less than 500 years ago, decided that the Apostles didn't mean what the Church faithfully taught for all this time. Why change the written word, when with propaganda the entire meaning can be turned up-side down?

Lies? To make a lie of the Catholic Church is to destroy all of Christendom; the devil's work for sure.

JoeT

Joe,
Well said.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Fred

But, rather than re-write the words, Wyclif, Luther, and others chose simply to change the meaning. Why with their god-like wisdom, less than 500 years ago, decided that the Apostles didn’t mean what the Church faithfully taught for all this time. Why change the written word, when with propaganda the entire meaning can be turned up-side down?
Luther loved the Church and had no intention of leaving it. He was excomunicated for daring to state out loud that people don't have to pay money before God will forgive their sins. The Lutheran Church kept much of the liturgy, music, and trappings of the Catholic Church, plus most of the doctrines.

Wondergirl.
That is true.
For 30 years I was a Lutheran.
But now I have come Home to The Church.
Fred

Tj3,
I ask Mary to play to Jesus for me some time.
That's it.
That's what I believe.
I believe that the saints can pray for us and Mary is a special one of them being the Mother of God the Son.
Fred


Fred

Where does Jesus tell us to ask His mother for requests of promises?

Christ taught us to pray... To The Father, just as Christ himself did.. He ensampled His teaching on Mt Olive..

AND.. Power and faith in Christ is shown when we ask anything in Christ name, when we pray...

We are God's children, and Our Father expects us to listen... The fulfillment of righteousness is to proclaim Christ as the begotten Son of God without shame or doubt. Any method that causes us to go else where is wrong, and is does show your doubt in what Christ told us. He is the Way!

Tell me, does your method in doing other then what Christ Himself did, show that you trust in Him? Does it show love, and worthiness to Christ? I think it makes it appear, as if you think His promise to hear you is being neglected.

The child of God who walks in Christ has no shame or doubt.. They are obedent to the Father's Will.

This is off thread...

Change what is written? Nobody has changed what was written. No, more cunning games are played by forces that oppose God. Why change the writing, after all there must be thousands, likely millions, of copies of Scripture. Can you imagine running around the world with pen and eraser scrubbing out words and writing in new ones? But, why rub out written words when you can simply change the meaning of the written word? Better still, make the words subjective, different meaning for different folks.

Too smart for that? Consider this. The Holy Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ, its leaders chosen by Christ, Her scriptures inspired by God, universally ministering One faith to 50 or more generations, always teaching the same One, Holy, and Apostolic faith in Christ. Not for a few decades, nor a few centuries, rather for two millennia. Each day, each month, each year, faithfully ministering to the Divine institution of the Mass for two millennia. Proof of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is reveled in both Scripture and Tradition.

Two thousand years, 50 generations, two hundred decades; this spans across most of mankind's history on this little green marble; a length of time nearly impossible for man to grasp. And for all of these millennia we have understood and believed in the One, Holy Catholic, and Apostolic Church. And now, you would suggest that it's a lie. If so then our God is indeed cruel, because it would be His lie. But, rather than re-write the words, Wyclif, Luther, and others chose simply to change the meaning. Why with their god-like wisdom, less than 500 years ago, decided that the Apostles didn't mean what the Church faithfully taught for all this time. Why change the written word, when with propaganda the entire meaning can be turned up-side down?

Lies? To make a lie of the Catholic Church is to destroy all of Christendom; the devil's work for sure.

JoeT

Hebrew 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


Tell me how has baptism change? What was written and instructed? I do not single out the Catholic church in error... What I tell you is what is written, hear Christ and follow His way.

John baptized where there was enough water.. (John 3:23)

And in (Acts 8:38) is the testimony of when you can be baptized.

Jesus ensampled the fulfillment of baptism being an act of righteousness .. Christ said suffer it so now... (Matthew 3:15)

Do you understand what suffer it means? The following verse in Corinthians tells us...
1 Corinthians 4:21 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

What did God wants us to do after the birth of a new baby?


What does The Word say about not doing the Will of God?

off thread

[B]Fred

Where does Jesus tell us to ask His mother for requests of promises?

Good question. And here is another, where ido we find any example in scripture of a Christian praying to a dead saint?

Hebrew 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


Tell me how has baptism change? What was written and instructed? I do not single out the Catholic church in error... What I tell you is what is written, hear Christ and follow His way.

John baptized where there was enough water.. (John 3:23)

And in (Acts 8:38) is the testimony of when you can be baptized.

Jesus ensampled the fulfillment of baptism being an act of righteousness .. Christ said suffer it so now... (Matthew 3:15)

Do you understand what suffer it means? The following verse in Corinthians tells us...
1 Corinthians 4:21 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

What did God wants us to do after the birth of a new baby?


What does The Word say about not doing the Will of God?

off thread

And so how did Baptism get into this? More supposed lies?

Surly, you wouldn't forbid little children from entering the Kingdom of God, would you?

"Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Amen I say to you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter into it. 16 And embracing them and laying his hands upon them, he blessed them." Mark 10:14-16

There's a problem for some with this next verse. It requires 'work'! “DO PENANCE” DO PENANCE; DO WORK, Oh to my chagrin:

Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you and to your children and to that entire are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39

AND “THE PROMISE IS TO YOU AND TO YOUR CHILDREN”? What promises? Those made by God, the merits of baptism.

Tradition also speaks to baptizing children; some holding it heresy to withhold baptism for a child:
But maybe the lie is in the false accusations? "Christ came to save all who are reborn through Him to God — infants, children, and youths" (infantes et parvulos et pueros). St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2.22 (circa 2nd century A.D.)

"If you wish to be a Catholic, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin." St. Augustine, On the Soul, Book III

"Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they can not possibly be vivified in Christ” St. Augustine, Epistle 28

Entrance into the Kingdom of God requires a work, a work of faith, a work having both form and matter, baptism, “No one is excepted, not the infant, not the one hindered by any necessity." St. Ambrose, II De Abraham. c. xi.

So, where's the lie?

JoeT

Good question. And here is another, where ido we find any example in scripture of a Christian praying to a dead saint?

No where... No way!!! That would be to follow man...

Prayer was ensampled to be to The Father.. Christ ensample the way..

( Luke 16:27) confirmed how we on earth have what was fulfilled in scripture by all that was written. And once departed from the flesh we will go to one side of the gulf (or) the other.. . But by no means will you send messages of hope to brothers, nor able to contact them!

And so how did Baptism get into this? More supposed lies?

Surly, you wouldn't forbid little children from entering the Kingdom of God, would you?

"Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Amen I say to you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter into it. 16 And embracing them and laying his hands upon them, he blessed them." Mark 10:14-16

The little children from the the beginning of birth are God's. For all souls belong to God. (Ezekiel 18:4)

The little children do their Father's Will, they follow.... Christ ensampled that fact that little children are blessed. God pour water upon the seed of our off springs in blessing. Trust His word..
Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

No where in that scripture does it say baptise the little children.. It doesn't because it can be found in (Acts 8:38) when we are able to be baptized.. It is a righteous act of choice in proclaiming your faith in Christ the begotten Son of God.




Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you and to your children and to that entire are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39
AND “THE PROMISE IS TO YOU AND TO YOUR CHILDREN”? What promises? Those made by God, the merits of baptism.

The promise is The Holy Spirit... And yes they too shall receive The Holy Spirit when they make the choice to be baptized. When their proclaim their love and faith in Christ Jesus.



Tradition also speaks to baptizing children; some holding it heresy to withhold baptism for a child:

"If you wish to be a Catholic, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin." St. Augustine, On the Soul, Book III

"Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they can not possibly be vivified in Christ” St. Augustine, Epistle 28

Entrance into the Kingdom of God requires a work, a work of faith, a work having both form and matter, baptism, “No one is excepted, not the infant, not the one hindered by any necessity." St. Ambrose, II De Abraham., c. xi.

So, where's the lie?

JoeT

The man made rules have it covered in doing things their way... That which you have quoted makes it appear that Christ mother and father did evil..

Scripture was written, and is The Word of God... I trust in His way and do His Will

Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)

The little children from the the beginning of birth are God's. For all souls belong to God. (Ezekiel 18:4)

The little children do their Father's Will, they follow.... Christ ensampled that fact that little children are blessed. God pour water upon the seed of our off springs in blessing. Trust His word..
Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

No where in that scripture does it say baptise the little children.. It doesn't because it can be found in (Acts 8:38) when we are able to be baptized.. It is a righteous act of choice in proclaiming your faith in Christ the begotten Son of God.




The promise is The Holy Spirit... And yes they too shall receive The Holy Spirit when they make the choice to be baptized. When their proclaim their love and faith in Christ Jesus.



The man made rules have it covered in doing things their way... That which you have quoted makes it appear that Christ mother and father did evil..

Scripture was written, and is The Word of God... I trust in His way and do His Will

Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)

Now you're adding YOUR tradition to the Scripture. As I pointed out, Catholic Tradition is quite different.

What authority supports your position? If you say the Bible, then my response would be that Catholic Tradition wrote Scripture. The authority that supports my position is the Magisterium of the Church.


JoeT

Joe,
And I support it also.
I support The Church's traditional teaching rather than that of man outside of the
Magisterium.
Fred

What is the Magisterium?

Wondergirl,
The Magiserium is composed of the leading servants of the Church.
They are the ones who, with the help and guidance of The Holy Spirit, decide the stand The Church must take in regard to what the Bible says.
They, with the Pope, (and only them) produce the official teaching of The Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Now you're adding YOUR tradition to the Scripture. As I pointed out, Catholic Tradition is quite different.

What authority supports your position? If you say the Bible, then my response would be that Catholic Tradition wrote Scripture. The authority that supports my position is the Magisterium of the Church.


JoeT

Where Joe? Where have I listed a tradition other then what is written in scripture?

Quote what you feel is my tradition?

Wondergirl,
The Magiserium is composed of the leading servants of the Church.
They are the ones who, with the help and guidance of The Holy Spirit, decide the stand The Church must take in regard to what the Bible says.
They, with the Pope, (and only them) produce the official teaching of The Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Fred,

The context of what I am speak is scripture.. The Word.. The flesh that was Christ.. His way, His ensample of all that was written.

Hebrew 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


The Truth that holds fast to Christ and His way...

Wondergirl,
The Magiserium is composed of the leading servants of the Church.
They are the ones who, with the help and guidance of The Holy Spirit, decide the stand The Church must take in regard to what the Bible says.
They, with the Pope, (and only them) produce the official teaching of The Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tradition and Living Magisterium (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm)

JoeT

sndbay,
SO does the Magisterium.
By the way, I think Joe was referring to the Protestant tradition of sola scriptora which is NOT a biblical teaching.
Quit the contrary for the bible speaks of teaching or preaching and holding fast to the traditions taught by the Apostles.
Some of those traditions are not mentioned in the bible but were taught by the early apostles and we have them preserved in ancient documents.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Joe,
Thanks much for that.
Fred

sndbay,
SO does the Magisterium.
By the way, I think Joe was referring to the Protestant tradition of sola scriptora which is NOT a biblical teaching.
Quit the contrary for the bible speaks of teaching or preaching and holding fast to the traditions taught by the Apostles.
Some of those traditions are not mentioned in the bible but were taught by the early apostles and we have them preserved in ancient documents.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You're right Fred, I was referring to the tradition of sola scriptura. But added to that, I don't know about the Magisterium but I do know that Acts 8:38 refers to a eunuch, not little children.

Eunuch: a castrated man, esp. one formerly employed by Oriental rulers as a harem guard or palace official.

I've always understood that Scripture interpretation should always be disciplined, rightly aligned with the Magisterium of the Church, One with Chirst.


JoeT

No where... No way!!! That would be to follow man...

Prayer was ensampled to be to The Father.. Christ ensample the way..

( Luke 16:27) confirmed how we on earth have what was fulfilled in scripture by all that was written. And once departed from the flesh we will go to one side of the gulf (or) the other.. . But by no means will you send messages of hope to brothers, nor able to contact them!

Quote right. I have asked a similar question to the one raised by Fred to those who believing in praying to the dead, and have asked for any place in scripture where we find and endorsement of prayer to dead saints - and to date not one has come forward with a single example.

Joe,
And I support it also.
I support The Church's traditional teaching rather than that of man outside of the
Magisterium.
Fred

This is why we so often find ourselves at odds. It is because you have your denomination's magisterium as your standard of truth. Mine is the Bible.

No where... No way!!! That would be to follow man...

Prayer was ensampled to be to The Father.. Christ ensample the way..

( Luke 16:27) confirmed how we on earth have what was fulfilled in scripture by all that was written. And once departed from the flesh we will go to one side of the gulf (or) the other.. . But by no means will you send messages of hope to brothers, nor able to contact them!

No Paryers for the dead; OH, but WAY!

If we don't pray for the dead then we'll need to assign these verses to obscurity. Onesiphorus is dead, Paul tells us of his prayers for him. Paul asks the Lord to have mercy on Onesiphorus.

The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me and hath not been ashamed of my chain: But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me and found me. The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day. And in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.(2Tim1:16-18)

Salute Prisca and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus remained at Corinth. And Trophimus I left sick at Miletus. Make haste to come before winter. Eubulus and Pudens and Linus and Claudia and all the brethren, salute thee. The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen. (2Tim4: 19-22)

Oops: I forgot to add an Old Testament reference to the practice of praying for the dead. A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living, and restrain not grace from the dead. (Sirach 7:37) The graces referred to here are those profited from alms, prayers, and sacrifices.

JoeT

And then we also find that we are not only permitted to pray for the dead but that it’s a holy thing to do so: It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Macc 12:46)

Oh, what a HOLY WAY!

JoeT

JoeT,
Thanks much for that.
I have many loved ones and some friends who have passed this life.
I pray to God for mercy on their souls.
It's the best I can do for them now.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

No Paryers for the dead; OH, but WAY!

If we don't pray for the dead then we'll need to assign these verses to obscurity. Onesiphorus is dead, Paul tells us of his prayers for him. Paul asks the Lord to have mercy on Onesiphorus.

The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me and hath not been ashamed of my chain: But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me and found me. The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day. And in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.(2Tim1:16-18)

All very interesting except the part where you claim Onesiphorus is dead. Where did you find that? There is nothing in scripture which even suggests that.



Oops: I forgot to add an Old Testament reference to the practice of praying for the dead. A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living, and restrain not grace from the dead. (Sirach 7:37) The graces referred to here are those profited from alms, prayers, and sacrifices.

Sirach is not in the Old Testament, but if you'd like to push it, I'd be happy to show you contradictions between Sirach and the Bible.

And then we also find that we are not only permitted to pray for the dead but that it’s a holy thing to do so: It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Macc 12:46)

Oh, what a HOLY WAY!

JoeT

You do know that Maccabees denies being an inspired work internally, don't you?

JoeT,
Thanks much for that.
I have many loved ones and some friends who have passed this life.
I pray to God for mercy on their souls.
It's the best I can do for them now.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

If we can judge the strength of prayer based on the depth of one’s faith, your friends and relatives were well supported as they passed through the doors of the Church Triumphant.

On another matter, quite some time ago, I became terrified at the thought of all the poor souls that found themselves in purgatory without love ones to pray for them. What terrified me was that by some twist of fate I could just as easily become such a soul. As a result I started saying a simple prayer every night for all such lost souls. Join me. I’m sure those in the Church Suffering will be forever grateful. Think of it as a way of storing up treasures in Heaven.

JoeT

You do know that Maccabees denies being an inspired work internally, don't you?

Your handicaps are self inflicted so don't ask me to, as it were tie both hands behind my back.

JoeT

Thanks again, Joe.
Fred

Your handicaps are self inflicted so don't ask me to, as it were tie both hands behind my back.


I always get a laugh when those who have no way to refute an uncomfortable fact must resort to demeaning personal comments. I take it by your comments that you didn't know that Maccabees denied being inspired.

Look who is laughing at who now.
Is laughing at other Christians the thing to do.
If so please site the passage that says so.
Thanks Fred

No Paryers for the dead; OH, but WAY!

JoeT

Joe,

Please respectfully don't twist what I have quoted around...

Everything I have quoted is saying the dead can not help us on earth. To pray to the dead is what my quote reference to being No Way...

To pray to saints is what I rebuke, so that sin is not suffered unto anyone.

Of course, someone praying to the Father can ask for what is in the heart of request for their loved ones .


ONCE DEPARTED FROM THE FLESH LOOK AT THE QUOTE:


No where... No way!!! That would be to follow man...

Prayer was ensampled to be to The Father.. Christ ensample the way..

( Luke 16:27) confirmed how we on earth have what was fulfilled in scripture by all that was written. And once departed from the flesh we will go to one side of the gulf (or) the other.. . But by no means will you send messages of hope to brothers, nor able to contact them!

Joe,

Please respectfully don't twist what I have quoted around...

Everything I have quoted is saying the dead can not help us on earth. To pray to the dead is what my quote reference to being No Way...

To pray to saints is what I rebuke, so that sin is not suffered unto anyone.

Of course, someone praying to the Father can ask for what is in the heart of request for their loved ones.


ONCE DEPARTED FROM THE FLESH LOOK AT THE QUOTE:


Originally Posted by sndbay
No where... No way!! That would be to follow man...

Prayer was ensampled to be to The Father.. Christ ensample the way..

( Luke 16:27) confirmed how we on earth have what was fulfilled in scripture by all that was written. And once departed from the flesh we will go to one side of the gulf (or) the other.. . But by no means will you send messages of hope to brothers, nor able to contact them!

The problem is that Luke 16 doesn’t address your topic. Nor does it say “once departed from the flesh.” Luke 16:19-31 is a parable; many such as me believe that this shows the existence of purgatory. We’ll save that however for another day. Catholics have believed, from the time Christ commissioned the Church, that it is a” holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2 Macc 12:46)


JoeT

Catholics have believed, from the time Christ commissioned the Church, that it is a” holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2 Macc 12:46)
Isn't that what Jesus did, "loose" us from our sins? Of course, there has to be faith in that redemption. There is no second chance after this earthly life has ended according to Hebrews 9:27: "And, inasmuch, as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment."

Catholics have believed, from the time Christ commissioned the Church, that it is a” holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2 Macc 12:46)

Whether Catholics have believed that since the denomination began in the 4th century is a different question. The question is whether scripture endorses such a position, and using a book which is not canonical and denies inspiration such as Maccabees is not a compelling argument.

We can clearly see that communication with the dead is condemned is scripture, and we find nothing in scripture endorsing it, nor do we see it practiced by men of God in scripture.

The problem is that Luke 16 doesn't address your topic. Nor does it say “once departed from the flesh.”

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Died = departed from the flesh correct?



Luke 16:19-31 is a parable; many such as me believe that this shows the existence of purgatory.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

This scripture reference, clearly says hell

Purgatory is a man's doctrine, made up and is not written in scripture. (basicly I causion against anything man made )



Catholics have believed, from the time Christ commissioned the Church, that it is a” holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2 Macc 12:46)

JoeT

2 Maccabees Chapter 12The Jews are still molested by their neighbours. Judas gains various victories over them. He orders sacrifice and prayers for the dead.

Is this what the Catholic church follows?

**********

I can not accept that men on earth can help or improve anyones fate once they die.. (basicly because we are not Christ, who is the Saviour, and who knows the hearts, and souls of all)

Nor would I believe that praying to the Father concerning anyone's fate, once they die would be wise. (basicly because it shows judgement, and we can't judge someone else's fate even to ask this of our Father)

To pray to the Father in thankfulness to Him, for those individuals who were apart of our lives, and to acknowledge our sorrow in their death seems likely done in the glory of God.

However I do trust we can go to our Father in prayer concerning sorrow which aids in our own comfort. To do so shows our faith in God.

sndbay.
Sorry but I agree with Joe and My Church's teaching on that.
Fred

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Died = departed from the flesh correct?
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

This scripture reference, clearly says hell



Ok, let's go through Luke 16, starting with the parable of the rich man.

Before Christ died on the cross, the soul went to sheol, or hell. Hell was a place of waiting, a place of limbo, presumed to be a dark place below the earth. No soul went to heaven or what we consider the inferno of hell, the place always referred to in the New Testament as the hell of the damned, Gehenna; the punishment place of the damned. After Christ's Ascension the soul didn't go to the underworld, but rather to heaven (Cf. 2 Cor 5:1)

What is depicted in Luke 16:19 seq. are three souls, Lazarus, the Dives and Abraham. These three are aware of each other, aware of those on earth, and aware of their own condition. Being conscious of their plight and calling for mercy shows the presence of hope, a virtue notably absent in hell. Abraham's bosom was understood by Jewish culture to be a place of rest; not heaven but a place where a spirit could rest. Again, until the Ascension no soul enters heaven. It's with Christ's sacrifice that a new heaven and a new earth are created. On Christ's death, a New Kingdom is created; its occupants are the Church Militant, those baptized on earth; Church suffering, those suffering in purgatory; and the Church Triumphant, those residing in heaven.

Furthermore, the Dives petitions (“prays to”) another soul in purgatory to have mercy; “send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.” The purging flames of fire create a great thrust for God's graces. The rich man pray's “send him [Lazarus] to my father's house” to testify. This is the dead 'praying' for his love ones left behind. To suggest that it was possible to send Moses and the prophets for the benefit of the living also supports the idea of the communication of the living with the Saints. Would Christ have used a parable that theologically flawed if such communication were prohibited?


Purgatory is a man's doctrine, made up and is not written in scripture. (basically I caution against anything man made )

I would caution also. Ignoring Sacred and Holy Tradition is to deny the fullness of faith found in the Church.


2 Maccabees Chapter 12The Jews are still molested by their neighbours. Judas gains various victories over them. He orders sacrifice and prayers for the dead.

Is this what the Catholic church follows?

**********

The Catholic Church follows Holy Tradition and Scripture, as taught by the Magisterium. If you mean does this include the Book of Maccabees; then yes.


I can not accept that men on earth can help or improve anyones fate once they die.. (basicly because we are not Christ, who is the Saviour, and who knows the hearts, and souls of all)



Nor would I believe that praying to the Father concerning anyone's fate, once they die would be wise. (basicly because it shows judgement, and we can't judge someone else's fate even to ask this of our Father)

That's too bad. You'd make a great Catholic.


To pray to the Father in thankfulness to Him, for those individuals who were apart of our lives, and to acknowledge our sorrow in their death seems likely done in the glory of God.

But, wouldn't it be more comforting to know that mom, dad, uncle, brother, etc. are in heaven adding to our petitions for God's mercy on our souls. Wouldn't it help comfort poor lost souls to know that we are petitioning God to be merciful to them? Do you just hate poor lost souls so much that you wouldn't pray for them? Would you dam all who don't “walk the isle” to say the formula of 'once saved always saved'?


However I do trust we can go to our Father in prayer concerning sorrow which aids in our own comfort. To do so shows our faith in God.

I pray to Saint Michael:

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray: and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

JoeT

Isn't that what Jesus did, "loose" us from our sins? Of course, there has to be faith in that redemption. There is no second chance after this earthly life has ended according to Hebrews 9:27: "And, inasmuch, as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment."

Who said purgatory = 2nd chance?

JoeT

Joe,
There ARE several passages in the Holy Bible that indicate the existence of Purgatory.
They are as follows...
Lk 12:59; 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11... God's painful discipline.
Mt 12:32... no forgiveness... nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:19... purgatory (limbo?).
Rev 21:27... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23... souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14... "extra" suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46... sacrifice for the dead.
2 Tim 1:15-18... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
1 Jn 5:14-17... mortal/venial sins.
If you haven't does so yet, make a note of them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Who said purgatory = 2nd chance?
Then what would be its purpose?

Wondergirl,
The purpose of Purgatory is in its name.
Though out sins may be forgiven we still have a sinful nature to sin again.
It is the place where our sinful nature is purged.
Folks there leave purified so they can enter heaven.
You might think of it as a stage stop on the way to the heavenly kindom.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Then what would be its purpose?

To purge sin.

To purge sin.

Jesus did that on the cross, by Himself.

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Joe,
There ARE several passages in the Holy Bible that indicate the existence of Purgatory.
They are as follows......
Lk 12:59; 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11 ... God's painful discipline.
Mt 12:32 ... no forgiveness ... nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:19 ... purgatory (limbo?).
Rev 21:27 ... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23 ... souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46 ... sacrifice for the dead.
2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
1 Jn 5:14-17 ... mortal/venial sins.
If you haven't does so yet, make a note of them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Are you still copying and pasting off that website without giving proper credit?

Lk 12:59

Let's look at the context:

Luke 12:57-59
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. This is one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

1 Cor 3:15

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

1 Pet 1:7

1 Peter 1:5-10
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.
NKJV

This refers to faith being tested. We find a lot in scripture about our faith being tested (I.e. Heb 11), but every case refers to what we go through while alive. Nothing here speaks of men being burned.

Mt 5:25-26... temporary agony.

Matt 5:23-26
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you are thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. Yet another one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.

Heb 12:6-11... God's painful discipline.

Look at the context:

Heb 12:3-6
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
NKJV

The context is referring to how God deals with us while we are alive in the flesh. Nothing whatsoever could bend this to make it refer to purgatory or after death.

Mt 12:32... no forgiveness... nor in the age to come.

Matt 12:31-32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

This speaks against the belief that we can pay for sins after death – there is no forgiveness after death, don't put your hope in paying for your sins in purgatory.

1 Pet 3:19... purgatory (limbo?).

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV

This refers to Abraham's bosom.

Rev 21:27... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

Rev 21:26-27
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
NKJV

Right. For those who are saved, Jesus cleanses us of all unrighteousness, not purgatory.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Heb 12:23... souls in heaven are perfect.

Heb 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
NKJV

This refers to the perfection that comes through Christ's salvation, not purgatory.

Col 1:24

Col 1:24-27
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
NKJV

Note that this is “in my flesh”, not after death.

2 Sam 12:14... "extra" suffering.

2 Sam 12:12-15
13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die." 15 Then Nathan departed to his house.
NKJV

Suffering in the flesh, not after death.

2 Mac 12:43-46... sacrifice for the dead.

2 Maccabees is not canonical and by internal evidence, is not the word of God:

2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV

2 Tim 1:15-18... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."

2 Tim 1:14-18
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day--and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
NKJV

“In that day” refers to the fact that he is not yet dead.

1 Jn 5:14-17... mortal/venial sins

1 John 5:14-17
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
NKJV

We cannot take scripture out of context.

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Hence, purgatory. When this topic was first brought up I indicated that it should be saved for another thread. Please feel free to start one. Please stick to the topic.

JoeT

Hence, purgatory. When I this topic was first brought up I indicated that it should be saved for another thread. Please feel free to start one. Please stick to the topic.


How you claim it is purgatory when Jesus says that Himself already purged (past tense) those who are saved of their sins on the cross is beyond me.

I do not care about starting another thread. I am just responding to the issue that was raised on here.

Wondergirl,
The purpose of Purgatory is in its name.
Though out sins may be forgiven we still have a sinful nature to sin again.

Are Catholic then servants of sin and unable to do righteousness?

( Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness).

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.



It is the place where our sinful nature is purged.
Folks there leave purified so they can enter heaven.
You might think of it as a stage stop on the way to the heavenly kindom.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Scripture tells us we have purified the soul in obeying the truth through the Spirit. Confess Christ as worthy... forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.



1 Peter 1:14-15 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


I Cor 10:5-6 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Are Catholic then servants of sin and unable to do righteousness?



Purgatory:

I would appreciate it if you would repost your comments at: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/why-there-belief-purgatory-334160.html#post1628562

JoeT

Purgatory:

I would appreciate it if you would repost your comments at: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/why-there-belief-purgatory-334160.html#post1628562

JoeT



Understood yet difficult to do with Fred's posting in this thread..

Sorry Joe I certainly did not mean to side track your thread. Just answered the postings that were being discussed. This thread has been a whirlwind of discussion even with you and I talking of praying to the dead.

Understood yet difficult to do with Fred's posting in this thread..

Sorry Joe I certainly did not mean to side track your thread. Just answered the postings that were being discussed. This thread has been a whirlwind of discussion even with you and I talking of praying to the dead.

It's OK - just thought it would be best. Your comments will likely get a better viewing.

Are Catholic then servants of sin and unable to do righteousness?

( Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness).

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.



Scripture tells us we have purified the soul in obeying the truth through the Spirit. Confess Christ as worthy... forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.



1 Peter 1:14-15 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


I Cor 10:5-6 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

My response is at this link, https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/why-there-belief-purgatory-334160-2.html#post1629751

JoeT

sndbay,
Joe gave you and excellent response to that.
Fred