The regulation, instituted in the last days of the Bush administration, strengthened job protections for doctors and nurses who refuse to provide a medial service because of moral qualms.

So does this mean my job is at risk because I choose not to be a part of a medical abortion?

Can we say socialism has returned?

This may be more of an issue of political correctness, part of Obama's cultural revolution.
Actually, there is evidently some joinder between U.S. and Nazi healthcare mentioned in a Wikipedia article: "The Nazis based their eugenics program on the United States' programs of forced sterilization.[6] The Law for the Prevention of Hereditarily Diseased Offspring, proclaimed on July 14, 1933 required physicians to register every case of hereditary illness known to them, except in women over forty-five years of age.[7] Physicians could be fined for failing to comply." The Nazis based their eugenics program on the United States' programs of forced sterilization.[6] Nazi eugenics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics) I mean to say, we really need to be thoughtful and careful with this type stuff.

No. No.

Possibly yes, yes. But I'm sure if you were in the military and had some conscientious objection the administration would go all out to defend you.

So does this mean my job is at risk because I choose not to be a part of a medical abortion?Hello J:

I don't know. Looks to be the opposite, far as I can tell. But, socialized medicine is coming. THAT you can take to the bank.

excon

Look at the issue of the drug stores that did not want to offer the "morning after" pill. They had to, and if the person behind the counter would not do it they lost their jobs.

So I see no reason to believe this is too far down the road either.

The regulation, instituted in the last days of the Bush administration, strengthened job protections for doctors and nurses who refuse to provide a medial service because of moral qualms.

I believe Obama will reverse the conscience clause . He will replace it with specific rules that punish health care providers who refuse to perform morally objectional procedures or administer medications the provider opposes.

During the campaign he claimed such questions were beyond his pay grade.
But we knew this was coming because of his past actions in the Illinois Senate .


Not sure how it will affect your job but it bears close scrutiny . Senator Tom Coburn ,a physician who goes home on weekends to continue his medical practice ,said he would go to jail and so would a lot of others. (“I think a lot of us will go to jail”)
CNSNews.com - U.S. Senator Says He Would Practice Civil Disobedience If Obama Repeals Abortion 'Conscience Clause' (http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=44269)

I think there will be a groundswell of civil disobedience if they try this. Fair-minded liberals would actually object to the law because, even though they themselves might perform abortions or approve of them, they don't think someone else should be forced to do it.

Hello J:

I don't know. Looks to be the opposite, far as I can tell. But, socialized medicine is coming. THAT you can take to the bank.

And you were saying how good that would be?


A MINORITY VIEW

BY WALTER E. WILLIAMS

RELEASE: WEDNESDAY, MARCH 4, 2009 AND THEREAFTER

Sweden's Government Health Care (http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/09/SwedensGovernmentHealthCare.htm)

Government health care advocates used to sing the praises of Britain's National Health Service (NHS). That's until its poor delivery of health care services became known. A recent study by David Green and Laura Casper, "Delay, Denial and Dilution," written for the London-based Institute of Economic Affairs, concludes that the NHS health care services are just about the worst in the developed world. The head of the World Health Organization calculated that Britain has as many as 25,000 unnecessary cancer deaths a year because of under-provision of care. Twelve percent of specialists surveyed admitted refusing kidney dialysis to patients suffering from kidney failure because of limits on cash. Waiting lists for medical treatment have become so long that there are now "waiting lists" for the waiting list.

Government health care advocates sing the praises of Canada's single-payer system. Canada's government system isn't that different from Britain's. For example, after a Canadian has been referred to a specialist, the waiting list for gynecological surgery is four to 12 weeks, cataract removal 12 to 18 weeks, tonsillectomy three to 36 weeks and neurosurgery five to 30 weeks. Toronto-area hospitals, concerned about lawsuits, ask patients to sign a legal release accepting that while delays in treatment may jeopardize their health, they nevertheless hold the hospital blameless. Canadians have an option Britainers don't: proximity of American hospitals. In fact, the Canadian government spends over $1 billion each year for Canadians to receive medical treatment in our country. I wonder how much money the U.S. government spends for Americans to be treated in Canada.

"OK, Williams," you say, "Sweden is the world's socialist wonder." Sven R. Larson tells about some of Sweden's problems in "Lesson from Sweden's Universal Health System: Tales from the Health-care Crypt," published in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons (Spring 2008). Mr. D. a Gothenburg multiple sclerosis patient, was prescribed a new drug. His doctor's request was denied because the drug was 33 percent more expensive than the older medicine. Mr. D. offered to pay for the medicine himself but was prevented from doing so. The bureaucrats said it would set a bad precedent and lead to unequal access to medicine.

Malmo, with its 280,000 residents, is Sweden's third-largest city. To see a physician, a patient must go to one of two local clinics before they can see a specialist. The clinics have security guards to keep patients from getting unruly as they wait hours to see a doctor. The guards also prevent new patients from entering the clinic when the waiting room is considered full. Uppsala, a city with 200,000 people, has only one specialist in mammography. Sweden's National Cancer Foundation reports that in a few years most Swedish women will not have access to mammography.

Dr. Olle Stendahl, a professor of medicine at Linkoping University, pointed out a side effect of government-run medicine: its impact on innovation. He said, "In our budget-government health care there is no room for curious, young physicians and other professionals to challenge established views. New knowledge is not attractive but typically considered a problem (that brings) increased costs and disturbances in today's slimmed-down health care."

These are just a few of the problems of Sweden's single-payer government-run health care system. I wonder how many Americans would like a system that would, as in the case of Mr. D. of Gothenburg, prohibit private purchase of your own medicine if the government refused paying. We have problems in our health care system but most of them are a result of too much government. Over 50 percent of health care expenditures in our country are made by government. Government health care advocates might say that they will avoid the horrors of other government-run systems. Don't believe them.

The American Association of Physicians and Surgeons, who published Sven Larson's paper, is a group of liberty-oriented doctors and health care practitioners who haven't sold their members down the socialist river as have other medical associations. They deserve our thanks for being a major player in the '90s defeat of "Hillary care."

And you were saying how good that would be?Hello Steve:

Yuppers.

excon

PS> (edited). Look. I got a good idea. We have some Canadians right here on THIS website. They have socialized medicine. Why don't we ask them to tell us what they think? Fraid?? Yes, you are.

PS> (edited). Look. I got a good idea. We have some Canadians right here on THIS website. They have socialized medicine. Why don't we ask them to tell us what they think? Fraid???? Yes, you are.

Afraid? Since when have I feared an opinion?

Afraid? Since when have I feared an opinion?Hello again, Steve:

M, kay. I'm not going to steal this thread.

excon

Hello again, Steve:

M, kay. I'm not gonna steal this thread.

excon

Even though you're usually wrong you're a good man :D

Even though you're usually wrong you're a good man :D

Yes, I would say excon is quite the entertainer and could possibly host a radio show?

socialized medicine is coming. THAT you can take to the bank.

That's not something I want to take to the bank. I don't want socialized medicine, I can hardly afford to live as it is. Now I will be taxed more, maybe lose my license if I choose not to perform an abortion for moral reasons, etc.

I want to be able to go to the doctor when and if I have to, not be put on some waiting list.

And hijacking this thread has been approved by this OP as long as we stay in the medical arena. ;)

If my boss told me to go to this church and fix their network and I said No because morally I do not agree with this church I would be fired. Not because of Morals but because I refused to do my job. In my eyes it is no different if you are a Dr or Nurse, If you say no to doing part of your job then you should be fired. Morals have nothing to do with it.

Your boss being a private employer may indeed have the right to hire and fire anyone that they choose to do their business.

It is a completely different issue for the government to make laws that compel morally objectionable procedures be performed by unwilling practitioners... even when the facility is private .

If my boss told me to go to this church and fix their network and I said No because morally i do not agree with this church I would be fired. Not because of Morals but because I refused to do my job. In my eyes it is no different if you are a Dr or Nurse, If you say no to doing part of your job then you should be fired. Morals have nothing to do with it.

You, sir, are very short-sighted. Dare I say, an apparatchik in training.

If my boss told me to go to this church and fix their network and I said No because morally i do not agree with this church I would be fired. Not because of Morals but because I refused to do my job. In my eyes it is no different if you are a Dr or Nurse, If you say no to doing part of your job then you should be fired. Morals have nothing to do with it.

Huh? Fixing a network is not a life/death situation.

Huh? Fixing a network is not a life/death situation.

I would suggest, with due respect, morally 'tone deaf'.

I would suggest, with due respect, morally 'tone deaf'.

I think you're right. As it stands now, I can choose what patients I do or do not take. Once I accept the patient I cannot walk away from patient's care, abortion or not, without another nurse willing to take over care. That is abandonment and I can lose my license over this.

But Nobama's overall health care plans are making me wonder if I made the wrong choice in professions.

I could just move to dubai where I would get paid big bucks and not have to worry about all of this. LOL

I could just move to dubai where I would get paid big bucks and not have to worry about all of this. LOL

Thanks I was waiting for this opening



Quoting the director of one of India's leading private hospital chains, The Sunday Times reported that he was receiving five job applications a week from NHS doctors and that half his 3,000 consultants were from Britain.

"There's a feeling that India's time has come and there's a huge need for these people to come back," Anupam Sibal, director of the Apollo Hospital in Delhi said. Doctors say they are moving to India because of its economy, state of the art equipment, higher standards than the NHS and a better quality of life.

In particular, they say hospitals in India, which many Britons still imagine to be impoverished and dirty, suffer less from hospital-acquired infections such as MRSA. There has been a boom in private hospitals in India that resemble luxury hotels, with marble foyers and corridors mopped by an army of liveried cleaners.

One of those who has made the transition is Mahesh Kulkarni, an orthopaedic surgeon, who left Bristol Royal Infirmary after 10 years in Britain. He is now a consultant at the Aditya Birla Memorial Hospital in Pune.

"The hospitals are better than in Britain," he said. "The hospital is spotless and clean compared with the old hospitals in the UK, some of which are more than 100 years old. I started in January this year and I have not seen MRSA here yet."

Ameet kishore had worked as an ear, nose and throat consultant in glasgow royal infirmary for 12 years when he moved to the apollo hospital in Delhi two years ago. He said the new Indian hospitals were cleaner and better resourced.

Other doctors cited new European Union rules for their decision to move. Shailendra Magdam, a specialist registrar in neurosurgery at Radcliffe Infirmary in Oxford until he left for India in August last year, said that rules favouring EU doctors over Indians had played a part.

He said the EU's working time directive had also lowered NHS standards, by restricting the amount of time that young doctors could spend on the wards. "For a neurosurgeon to be good you have to spend a lot of time on the wards, but in Britain the working time directive is running down training," he said.

Although salaries are usually lower in India, doctors are finding that their standard of living is better. Kishore said he lived in a bigger house with a driver, cleaner, cook, nanny and watchman to look after him, his wife and two young children.


YaHind.Com - News - Indian hospitals wooing back British NRI doctors (http://www.yahind.com/news/directory.php?id=996)

My sister lives in Dubai and rates its doctors (she is pregnant) and hospitals as some of the best she has ever seen in her 15 years of travels around the world. When they moved there they were GIVEN a home that is large enough for my entire family as well as hers.

If this Nobama crud passes, I may have to go stay with her.

I guess I am crazy thinking you should do all duties of your job. I am not morally tone def I just believe that you should check your morals or beliefs at the door when you walk in to work. If you do not want to do a part of your job then find a new job.

George referring to me as being trained by Communist doesn't offend me maybe it offends some of you older folks but not the new generation.

I used the example of a network because that is what I do. True it is not life or death (but the way some of my customers react to a down network you would think it is). I admit it was a poor example.

Tom Thanks for giving me a straight answer. I can always depend on you.

I guess I am crazy thinking you should do all duties of your job. I am not morally tone def I just believe that you should check your morals or beliefs at the door when you walk in to work. If you do not want to do a part of your job then find a new job.

I don't mean to come off condescending, but you apparently are not trained in the medical field, specifically labor and delivery. We can choose our patients. If my ex husband's girlfriend, who he cheated on me with, were to walk in in labor I would not want to take care of her, I would ask another nurse to assume care and I would move to work in the nursery for example.

I do not want to be told that I must assist in performing a late term abortion if I do not believe in it. Why? Because many late term babies can live and not be killed. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Nobama does believe in late term abortions does he not?

How can anyone believe the government has the right to compel someone to perform an abortion? What next, compulsory euthanasia?

How can anyone believe the government has the right to compel someone to perform an abortion? What next, compulsory euthanasia?

Exactly, but I fear this may be coming with the current office.

you apparently are not trained in the medical field, specifically labor and delivery.

Is it that obvious ;)
I was looking at it as you have a job to do you either do all of your job or don't do it at all. It is easy for me to sit here and say that but if I were in your shoes I might be whistling a different tune.

And by 'tone deaf', I mean the inability to distinguish between removing a hang nail or spleen, and removing a fetus. By the way, there are attorneys who are unable to take divorce cases by virtue of their religion.
I can just hear it: "Comrad J_9! Take your position and assist in _____________! Should you fail to heed this directive, you will have 6 weeks re-education at subsistence pay, and your name and photo will be posted on the front page of the community paper!" Sorry, I don't buy into the notion that having an open mind is agreeing to legalizing drugs and placing cold-blooded murderers in life imprisonment.

...George referring to me as being trained by Communist doesn't offend me maybe it offends some of you older folks but not the new generation....


I wouldn't necessarily say "Communist", but "An unquestioningly loyal subordinate, especially of a political leader or organization." Apparatchik's definition | Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Apparatchik%27s)
As for older folks: I didn't recently fall-off the turnip truck. Abortion was 'found' to be a 'right' by the US Supreme Court in 1973, about three years before I finished 'growing-up'. I gave the subject some thought and came to a conclusion fairly quick.
It is my belief that if you are a 'materialist', you, too, can come to the conclusion that those haphazard arrangements of cells have no purpose and are entitled to no constitutional rights, which is sort of how I view enemy combatants, out of uniform, captured on the battlefield.

Those haphazard arrangements of cells have no purpose... which is sort of how I view enemy combatants, out of uniform, captured on the battlefield.


My preference would be to return them to that state of haphazard arrangements of cells

My preference would be to return them to that state of haphazard arrangements of cells

One good turn deserves another.

I guess I am crazy thinking you should do all duties of your job. I am not morally tone def I just believe that you should check your morals or beliefs at the door when you walk in to work. If you do not want to do a part of your job then find a new job.

George referring to me as being trained by Communist doesn't offend me maybe it offends some of you older folks but not the new generation.

I used the example of a network because that is what I do. True it is not life or death (but the way some of my customers react to a down network you would think it is). I admit it was a poor example.

Tom Thanks for giving me a straight answer. I can always depend on you.

Time’s Amy Sullivan Misrepresents FOCA Battle, Obama's Abortion Support | NewsBusters.org (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew-balan/2009/02/19/time-s-amy-sullivan-misrepresents-foca-battle-obamas-abortion-support)


In the health care field you want professionals to check their morals at the door? :eek:

Think about that for a minute, you want that trauma surgeon to try and fix you, family, or friend up after he's had a few to drink while on call? I mean, why should he stay sober? If, that is the moral thing to do, right?

You want your doctor to do a unneeded colonoscope on you because he has bills to pay and, besides, he left his morals at home?

Do you want that nurse to post pictures on the internet of you in your hospital gown? Hey they checked their morals at the door..


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is truly Orwellian

FOCA

As stated before, Obama said that when life begins is beyond his "paygrade" yet he is going to tell professionals and institutions that they have to kill the unborn?!

What happened to First Amendment rights?:confused:

This is outrageous.














G&P

Want to read about 'checking your morals at the door'? "MIAMI - A Hialeah abortion clinic owner's lawyer this afternoon said his client will plead not guilty to accusations she delivered a live baby during a botched procedure and then threw the infant away."
Hialeah abortion clinic denies throwing newborn away after botched procedure -- South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/sfl-bn-0304miami-doctor,0,900628.story)
There are those who say abortion is big business in modern America; I don't know. But this kind of sounds like it.

J-9 I am so very sorry you are in this situation. I know my late mother, who was an RN for 50 years, would be rolling in her grave now (but she was cremated) over what the nurses are now being forced to do or will be forced to do in the future.

She was a kind, loving, caring nurse who really loved her patients. She had a gentle touch and a healing touch as well. She would cry when she lost a patient to death. Most "good" nurses have these qualities. The good ones who care about life itself are the ones I am talking about. You are obviously one of the "good" ones like my mom was.

You will have to make this decision once the "rules" come down on your beloved profession. Maybe going to another country would be better for you as I personally don't think you would be able to sleep at night if you had to partake in such a procedure just to keep your job. You don't seem like the type.

Mr. Big Ears has no regard for human life and that was made perfectly clear a long time ago. He's just not coming out and saying it so everyone can hear but the way he voted while an Illinois senator speaks volumes. The "that's above my pay grade" was ludicris to put it mildly. He does not care if a baby is born alive as he does not want to "waste" money on keeping it alive as the mother had already determined she wanted an abortion so she should not have to take a live baby home with her.

Yes, and socialized medicine will definitely be the bane of America. Right now the only jobs listed in the want ads are (oddly enough) for medical professionals such as sonographers, nurses, medical assistants, doctors, etc. and not factory workers or office workers. For every 100 jobs here in Ohio on the net that I can access, 85 of them are for medical this or medical that.

I am glad now that my mother made me promise her that I would never be a nurse or go into the medical profession. She made me promise this over 40 years ago. Maybe she could see this coming. I don't know.

In the health care field you want professionals to check their morals at the door? :eek:

Think about that for a minute, you want that trauma surgeon to try and fix you, family, or friend up after he's had a few to drink while on call? I mean, why should he stay sober? If, that is the moral thing to do, right?

You want your doctor to do a unneeded colonoscope on you because he has bills to pay and, besides, he left his morals at home?

Do you want that nurse to post pictures on the internet of you in your hospital gown? Hey they checked their morals at the door..


G&P

Poor comparisons. If a Dr or nurse did any of the above they would be breaking the law. Not immoral.

So Twinkie your saying any nurse involved in an abortion does not care for their patients? Is not a 'good' nurse? Doesn't feel pain when patients die??

I hope every time you go to the hospital you ask the nurse if they are one of the 'good' ones like your mum and J9. And if not you ask not to be treated by these horrible monsters.

So Twinkie your saying any nurse involved in an abortion does not care for their patients?? Is not a 'good' nurse?? Doesnt feel pain when patients die???

I hope every time you go to the hospital you ask the nurse if they are one of the 'good' ones like your mum and J9. And if not you ask not to be treated by these horrible monsters.

Skell, every time I have to deliver a fetal demise I cry, for days, as if it were my own. I can't imagine Nobama telling me that I have no choice but to participate in a late term abortion.



You will have to make this decision once the "rules" come down on your beloved profession.

Actually this is why hospitals have Ethics Committees. Will Nobama do away with that as well?

Actually this is why hospitals have Ethics Committees. Will Nobama do away with that as well?

I'm sure that the Ethics Committees will be done away with due to the fact "they have no place" in a hospital setting or medical setting. I can see it coming.

I'm sure that the Ethics Committees will be done away with due to the fact "they have no place" in a hospital setting or medical setting. I can see it coming.

You are joking correct? I deal with the ethics committees on a monthly basis.

No, I am not joking. To cut costs and cut corners they will cut anywhere they can. I feel that the Ethics Committees will be severely hamstrung in the near future.

That's why I don't go to doctors or hospitals.

That's why I don't go to doctors or hospitals.

This is your choice, but if you were stricken with a curable illness, would you die even though you know that it could be cured?

For every 100 jobs here in Ohio on the net that I can access, 85 of them are for medical this or medical that.
And President Obama's been in office how long?

Skell, every time I have to deliver a fetal demise I cry, for days, as if it were my own. I can't imagine Nobama telling me that I have no choice but to participate in a late term abortion.



I have no doubt of that J9. Im sure it is horrible and upsetting experience. Just as it would be for 99% of nurses out there whether they have willingly participated in an abortion or not. But Twinkie seems to think that some nurses actually enjoy it and therefore aren't 'good'.

Poor comparisons. If a Dr or nurse did any of the above they would be breaking the law. Not immoral.

But what are laws based on but morals.

Now the question is whose morals are you going by.

If at the local Catholic hospital, Catholic doctors and nurses know abortion is killing the unborn, do you advocate a government that telling them what their behavior will be despite their morals?

When did the government get into IMPOSING one set of morals over another?

[ and you can't compare gay marriage to the killing of the unborn ]






G&P

Im not saying anyone should be forced to anything. Of course they should have a choice. But if that choice means they are no longer employable in their current position then so be it.

Your comparison to instances of doctors / nurses deliberately breaking the law still makes no sense to me.

And the Catholic Church is probably at the lower end of the scale when it comes to morals. They're outraged that a nine year old girl who was raped had an abortion even though it is perfectly legal.

Church hits out after nine-year-old's abortion | smh.com.au (http://www.smh.com.au/world/church-hits-out-after-nineyearolds-abortion-20090306-8q7s.html)

The rape is a crime, everyone agrees. The un born child, what was its crime?








G&P

Im not saying anyone should be forced to anything. Of course they should have a choice. But if that choice means they are no longer employable in their current position then so be it.

Your comparison to instances of drs / nurses deliberately breaking the law still makes no sense to me.

And the Catholic Church is probably at the lower end of the scale when it comes to morals. They're outraged that a a nine year old girl who was raped had an abortion even though it is perfectly legal.

Church hits out after nine-year-old's abortion | smh.com.au (http://www.smh.com.au/world/church-hits-out-after-nineyearolds-abortion-20090306-8q7s.html)

YOu never answered the question though. Just used a diversion.

Do you think the government, by its power to make laws, should impose its morality on its citizens? What if you were a slave in the early 1800s?










G&P

Elections have consequences, as the beat goes on: "A proposed bill promising major changes in the U.S. abortion landscape has Roman Catholic bishops threatening to close Catholic hospitals if the Democratic Congress and White House make it law. Blog: Will Obama's nominee for HHS be able to present herself for Holy Communion?

"The Freedom of Choice Act failed to get out of subcommittee in 2004, but its sponsor is poised to refile it now that former Senate co-sponsor Barack Obama occupies the Oval Office.

"A spokesman for Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., said the legislation "is among the congressman's priorities. We expect to reintroduce it sooner rather than later."

"FOCA, as the bill is known, would make federal law out of the abortion protections established in 1973 by the U.S. Supreme Court's Roe vs. Wade ruling."
03/06/2009 - Could St. Louis lose its Catholic hospitals under new federal abortion legislation? - STLtoday.com (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/religion/story/E6E47067257DB95E862575710014DD57?OpenDocument)