My questions is Why is it that some Christians are very strict about the rules that God had set and believe everything from the bible to be true but at the same time only seems to follow more of what is in the New Testament versus the Old... I mean... Its all GOD right? So shouldn't you follow all of GOD's order?

Old Testament
1) Sin offerings
2) Not cutting hair
3) Not entering where a dead person is

New Testament focus
1) No Sex prior to marriage
2) Accepting Christ
3) No drinking or getting drunk

etc...

I just don't get if the Bible is the tell all manual then why some is ignored and some isn't... Who says to ignore some. Even IF times are different the words still came from GOD and if he is all judging then how is everyone to assume that its OK?

I don't know if this makes sense. I had a Christian friend tell me that some of the things in the Bible don't count anymore. It blows my mind, its like picking and choosing.

I don't mean to be hostile at all, I'm just seeking some insight on this.

Thanks!

I don't mean to be hostile at all, I'm just seeking some insight on this.

Ok. I'll do my best to give you some insight.


My questions is Why is it that some Christians are very strict about the rules that God had set and believe everything from the bible to be true but at the same time only seems to follow more of what is in the New Testament versus the Old... I mean... Its all GOD right? So shouldn't you follow all of GOD's order?

Yes.


Old Testament
1) Sin offerings
2) Not cutting hair
3) Not entering where a dead person is

New Testament focus
1) No Sex prior to marriage
2) Accepting Christ
3) No drinking or getting drunk

etc...

That summary leaves a lot to be desired. The Old and the New Testament are more perfectly summarized in this one verse:

Love God with all your heart and soul.


I just don't get if the Bible is the tell all manual then why some is ignored and some isn't... Who says to ignore some. Even IF times are different the words still came from GOD and if he is all judging then how is everyone to assume that its OK?

From a Catholic perspective, God didn't just give us a Bible. Yes, the Bible is God's word. But God also gave us the Church and Tradition.

The Bible is a record of God revelation to mankind.
Tradition is how God's word is applied by mankind.
The Church is the Teacher of God's word in Scripture and Tradition.

Unless you have all three, you don't have the fullness of God's truth.


I don't know if this makes sense. I had a Christian friend tell me that some of the things in the Bible don't count anymore. It blows my mind, its like picking and choosing.

Its true. The Bible tells us that circumcision is no longer necessary:

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


Thanks!

You're welcome. I hope that helped.

Love is the greatest commandment. Love is greater then whether somebody cuts there hair or not. Whether somebody is clean or unclean. The greatest gift is to Love unconditionally and that is why we are here.

The old testament is a historical account of different customs and laws and a written history of the past. There are many laws that were given to be able to tell people apart from the people who were chosen and not chosen.

For example: Circumcision is a mark of God, the old testament says that all boys are supposed to be circumised, right. Yet why would God make your body a certain way and then tell you to disfigure it?

In the new testament. It does not matter whether we are circumcised or not. The only thing that matters is that we have Gods spirit within us and that we show others love. We belong to God regardless.

[QUOTE=De Maria;1581329]

That summary leaves a lot to be desired. The Old and the New Testament are more perfectly summarized in this one verse:

Love God with all your heart and soul.
[QUOTE]

Yes, I have heard about that and understand that... But that still doesn't answer my question about all the "demands" and what GOD tells you to do in the Old Testament which people don't do anymore. Not all of it was disregarded in the New or was mentioned that it doesn't count anymore. I've been reading the Old Testament and so far I see all these specific rules.

And through these rules, it seems to display God more of a demanding tyrant who will smite you if you do not obey... And then in the New its all about love...

The old testament shows that God has the same emotions as us. We were made in there image. In the old testemant many people focus on the mad and angry God but they fail to see that he has great patience and love and forgiveness for his people and mercy.

So... those rules just don't apply anymore?

And what about all the people GOD killed that didn't follow his rules. Like being stoned to death when working on the Sabbath day? Where was the forgiveness?

Is it like GOD became nicer over time?

And through these rules, it seems to display God more of a demanding tyrant who will smite you if you do not obey...And then in the New its all about love...

I'd disagree; this one statement is the essence of the teaching in the Old and New Testaments. I started a response, answering each item listed, but seeing DeMaria's response, I couldn't find anything more fitting to say.

Now if you just want to argue over New Testament traditions verses Old testament traditions we can do that. But the essence of the response to your question is to Love God above all things.

Christ tells us the answer to the lawyerly question in His own words , “which is the great commandment in the law?” [Actually I secretly hope he'd say 'stamp out lawyers' but he doesn't] And, He didn't say, go wash, He didn't say, go prey, but what he did say was “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment.” (Matt 22:36 seq.)

Far from being a tyrant; this makes God a loving Father. Michele, do this and you won't need to worry about rules.

JoeT

etc...

I just don't get if the Bible is the tell all manual then why some is ignored and some isn't...Who says to ignore some. Even IF times are different the words still came from GOD and if he is all judging then how is everyone to assume that its ok?

I don't know if this makes sense. I had a Christian friend tell me that some of the things in the Bible don't count anymore. It blows my mind, its like picking and choosing.


This topic can be a source of MAJOR disagreement among Christians, and contributes to some of the schisms between the varius denominations. Christians generally believe that Jesus brought a "new covenant" that basically over-wrote the original covenant between God and Moses as described in the Old Testament. Hence many of the old prohibitions against things like wearing clothes of different materials, or dietary laws, or lending money with interest, were essentially swept away as the New Covenant ends sin and death for everyone who accepts it. Again, different people have different interpretations of just how much attention to pay to the prohibitions proscribed in the old testament (with the exception that all Christians have a belief in the 10 commandments).

Here's an article on the New Covenant that may help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant

Yes, I have heard about that and understand that...But that still doesn't answer my question about all the "demands" and what GOD tells you to do in the Old Testament which people don't do anymore. Not all of it was disregarded in the New or was mentioned that it doesn't count anymore. I've been reading the Old Testament and so far I see all these specific rules.

And through these rules, it seems to display God more of a demanding tyrant who will smite you if you do not obey...And then in the New its all about love...

God still smites the disobedient.

However, the New Testament reveals that God became man to fulfill the Old Law and then establish in Himself a new, more perfect Law of the Spirit.

This is how the Bible says it:

Romans 7:2
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Does this mean that the Old Law is void?

Romans 3 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

What this means is that if we live by the law of love and do good to all men, we will not infringe on any of the Ten Commandments. The law is not annulled. It is not voided as you seem to think. But we strive to live by a higher calling.

That is why the emphasis is on love. Thou shalt.

Rather than on punishment. Thou shalt not.

Am I making sense?

and what about all the people GOD killed that didn't follow his rules. Like being stoned to death when working on the Sabbath day? Where was the forgiveness?

Is it like GOD became nicer over time?

No.

Have you noticed that civilization has progressed, even in the last 100 years? People know and understand more. And they can handle more information. I'm old enough to remember when some people didn't believe that man would ever go to the moon.

God knows us better than we know ourselves. God waited for men to progress to a certain level of understanding before He gave them more information. But God is still the same.

Do you believe that God speaks with Holy people? That more writings may someday come?

Or when the Pope stated that there was no hell?

I'm also curious about how new information that may come from God inspired people are taken seriously or disregarded since its not written in the bible...

Or when the Pope stated that there was no hell?




I’m unaware of any such pronouncement When did this happen?

JoeT

"No Hell": Pope (http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/1999/07/29/nf_nohell990729.html)

Basically saying that Hell is not a physical place. But the tormet and emptiness that a soul feels when not in a union with God... and that the Union with God, is heaven... but not a physical place...

Also: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1572646.ece

"No Hell": Pope (http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/1999/07/29/nf_nohell990729.html)

Basically saying that Hell is not a physical place. But the tormet and emptiness that a soul feels when not in a union with God...and that the Union with God, is heaven...but not a physical place...

That's a far cry from saying there is no hell. What was said was that hell is a state of being - forever tormented. I think this is the statement that CBS was referencing: Heaven, Hell and Purgatory (http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM)

JoeT

Point taken

However, I am still curious people's opinion about the rest of my post... in that do you believe that there is or will be more God inspired texts or writings? And if there is, would everyone just assume that its from the devil?

I'm also curious about how new information that may come from God inspired people are taken seriously or disregarded since its not written in the bible...

Yes there can be private revelations from God, but the Catholic Church treats them much differently than other faiths


Private Revelations

"There are two kinds of revelations: (1) universal revelations, which are contained in the Bible or in the depositum of Apostolic tradition transmitted by the Church. These ended with the preaching of the Apostles and must be believed by all; (2) particular or private revelations which are constantly occurring among Christians (see CONTEMPLATION). When the Church approves private revelations, she declares only that there is nothing in them contrary faith or good morals, and that they may be read without danger or even with profit; no obligation is thereby imposed on the faithful to believe them. Speaking of such revelations as (e.g.) those of St. Hildegard (approved in part by Eugenius III), St. Bridget (by Boniface IX), and St. Catherine of Siena (by Gregory XI) Benedict XIV says: "It is not obligatory nor even possible to give them the assent of Catholic faith, but only of human faith, in conformity with the dictates of prudence, which presents them to us as probable and worthy of pius belief)" (De canon., III, liii, xxii, II). " see CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Private Revelations (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13005a.htm)


JoeT

Hmmm, there is a lot to contemplate! You are most helpful Joe, as you gave me a better understanding then most were able to!

Thanks!

hmmm, there is a lot to contemplate! You are most helpful Joe, as you gave me a better understanding then most were able to!

thanks!

I’m proud to have been of assistance.

You’re welcomed.

JoeT

and what about all the people GOD killed that didn't follow his rules. Like being stoned to death when working on the Sabbath day? Where was the forgiveness?

Is it like GOD became nicer over time?

I was reading the OT and I was surprised at how often God was angry so he did so-n-so.
The OT God sure stayed ticked off most of the time. Didn't mind dolling out punishment either!:eek:

"No Hell": Pope (http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/1999/07/29/nf_nohell990729.html)

Basically saying that Hell is not a physical place. But the tormet and emptiness that a soul feels when not in a union with God...and that the Union with God, is heaven...but not a physical place...

The Pope and I don't agree on much but this, I totally agree with. I mean, when someone tries to describe heaven to me with all these physical characteristics it doesn't do a thing for me. And if is a physical place what are we doing. Standing around, watching movies, playing ball? It's just ridiculous.

The Pope and I don't agree on much but this, I totally agree with. I mean, when someone tries to describe heaven to me with all these physical characteristics it doesn't do a thing for me. And if is a physical place what are we doing. Standing around, watching movies, playing ball? It's just rediculous.

In case you missed it the Pope's Catechesis on heaven, hell and purgatory: Heaven, Hell and Purgatory (http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM)

It wasn't quite like the description above.

JoeT

Gal 3:24-26
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
(KJV)

Every law of the OT was a type (picture) of Christ and the New Covenant. The Law dealt with the exterior works, while the New Covenant deals with the inner man, (soul, spirit, attitudes).
Now that we are under the New Covenant, there is no further need of an external law. We will keep the spirit of the law automatically IF we continue in the faith.

The bible is God's written word,unfortunately many human hands were and still are involved so as a result many things were changed.
One of the most wonderful promises that God makes is that He will put His Spirit inside us and His Spirit is the Spirit of Truth,The Spirit will lead us to The Truth.
Does God change His rules?Yes He does!
In the beginning it was OK for brothers to be married and have children, it was a need and there was no other way for us humans to multiply.When the number of humans was large enough ,God stopped it.
Also God did not allow the people of Israel to have any relationship with the gentiles,but later that changed too thank God!
Circumsision changed,clean and unclean food changed...
God's rules were not cancelled but we people after the coming of Christ understood the law, the way God wants us too.Jesus tought us how to keep the law.For example today we have no circumsision of the flesh, but we need to keep the circumsision of the heart.There is no clean and unclean food, but the real food is every word that comes out of God's mouth,so today's clean food is God's Word.
Jesus revealed to us the real meaning of the law,that in the centre of it HAS NOT CHANGED!

The Pope and I don't agree on much but this, I totally agree with. I mean, when someone tries to describe heaven to me with all these physical characteristics it doesn't do a thing for me. And if is a physical place what are we doing. Standing around, watching movies, playing ball? It's just rediculous.
What if heaven is being who you are now, only better, and doing all you do now, only better? (As a kid, I thought we'd be hanging out wearing white robes and playing harps and singing all day. Talk about boring!)

Jesus revealed to us the real meaning of the law,that in the centre of it HAS NOT CHANGED!
[to finish my "agree"]... because his heart is God's, and not because he has to.

What if heaven is being who you are now, only better, and doing all you do now, only better? (As a kid, I thought we'd be hanging out wearing white robes and playing harps and singing all day. Talk about boring!)


You mean I'll be thinner, have better hair days, my skin will be as smooth as a baby's butt,
I'll be doing my favorite things, like eating out, watching good movies, snuggeling by a fire.
I won't be doing those dreaded things like cleaning the bathroom, exercising, etc.

I think I don't believe we will be fleshly creatures in heaven because the bottom line of anything you do for enjoyment is to achieve the bottom line... the good feeling you get.
I believe in heaven, your spirit just enjoys the good feeling and skips the "middle man."
Middle man being all the activities, relationships, appearances, that are our ways or reaching the good feelings we experience in our earthly life.

You mean I'll be thinner, have better hair days, my skin will be as smooth as a baby's butt,
I'll be doing my favorite things, like eating out, watching good movies, snuggeling by a fire.
I won't be doing those dreaded things like cleaning the bathroom, exercising, etc.

I think I don't believe we will be fleshly creatures in heaven because the bottom line of anything you do for enjoyment is to achieve the bottom line... the good feeling you get.
I believe in heaven, your spirit just enjoys the good feeling and skips the "middle man."
Middle man being all the activities, relationships, appearances, that are our ways or reaching the good feelings we experience in our earthly life.

There won't be dirt in heaven, so no cleaning. You will be thin with perfect hair and skin. Several Bible writers say "in my own flesh I shall see God." Verses and the three major church creeds also say that Judgment Day will give us resurrected bodies that will be reunited with souls. Heaven will be far more than "good feelings."

None of us will really truly know what heaven is like until we get there.

I agree but what God says he say the same thing in then both so yea lol I agree totally

Hi Michele, The Old Testament only applied to the people in the past when Jesus was still walking around.It does not apply to us today.We must follow the law of the New Testament today. Jesus died for our sins and paid the price for us so we can be free of the Old Testament. I hope you are not confused anymore.Your question was very interesting. Feel free to reply if necessary.

Hi Michele, The Old Testament only applied to the people in the past when Jesus was still walking around.It does not apply to us today.We must follow the law of the New Testament today. Jesus died for our sins and paid the price for us so we can be free of the Old Testament. I hope you are not confused anymore.Your question was very interesting. Feel free to reply back if necessary.

So the 10-commandments aren't to be observed?

JoeT

i agree but what God says he say the same thing in then both so yea lol i agree totally

I'm very confused. What are you saying?:confused::confused:

Hi Michele, The Old Testament only applied to the people in the past when Jesus was still walking around.It does not apply to us today.We must follow the law of the New Testament today. Jesus died for our sins and paid the price for us so we can be free of the Old Testament. I hope you are not confused anymore.Your question was very interesting. Feel free to reply back if necessary.



From the CCC:

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."



JoeT

So... :)
Of what I understood is that "should we obey the commandments of God"... is that?
If yes, firstly I wanted to tell u: the Bible is the Word Of God!!
If you REALLY believe in God, then u'll obey to his Word.. :)

The 1st commandment you must obey to and it's really important is: "love your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength and all your mind... :)

Hope it helped... :D

Love is the greatest commandment.

From the CCC:

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."

JoeT

Catholics DO pick, or see reasons certain things no longer apply. (Whichever suits you)

You, like most of the rest of us do NOT keep the Sabbath, (the seventh day) but rather the first day of the week. Please note that I do not keep the sabbath either.

Catholics DO pick and choose, or see reasons why certain things no longer apply. (Whichever suits you)

You, like most of the rest of us do NOT keep the Sabbath, (the seventh day) but rather the first day of the week. Please note that I do not keep the sabbath either.

They also have a slightly revised set of 10 commandments which removes one that otherwise might be a bit embarrassing.

They also have a slightly revised set of 10 commandments which removes one that otherwise might be a bit embarassing.
They list them all.

My questions is Why is it that some Christians are very strict about the rules that God had set and believe everything from the bible to be true but at the same time only seems to follow more of what is in the New Testament versus the Old...I mean...Its all GOD right? So shouldn't you follow all of GOD's order?

Old Testament
1) Sin offerings
2) Not cutting hair
3) Not entering where a dead person is

New Testament focus
1) No Sex prior to marriage
2) Accepting Christ
3) No drinking or getting drunk

etc...

I just don't get if the Bible is the tell all manual then why some is ignored and some isn't...Who says to ignore some. Even IF times are different the words still came from GOD and if he is all judging then how is everyone to assume that its ok?

I don't know if this makes sense. I had a Christian friend tell me that some of the things in the Bible don't count anymore. It blows my mind, its like picking and choosing.

I don't mean to be hostile at all, I'm just seeking some insight on this.

Thanks!!

Oh Gosh this is like one of my favorite topics. First I would like to say it is SOOOO not like picking and choosing and I don't like when Christians say things like "that doesn't count anymore". It all counts. Let me try to explain.

In the Old Testament the Lord gave Moses the Law which is much more than just the 10 commandments. There were rituals, things they couldn't touch, couldn't eat it etc. When a Jew wanted to worship, sacrifice, make atonement for sin it all had to be done in the temple. Ok after the death of the Lord Jesus and the Jews rejected him as their messiah the LORD instituted a new covenant. We are no longer living under the law that God gave to the Jews but we are living under what we call GRACE. It doesn't mean that we are free to sin and do what we want but we aren't living under that Law because Jesus fulfilled it. It was given to man so that he might know what he is and that he can't possible keep it perfectly. The Lord has set aside Judaism and the Jewish Nation ( not a jewish PERSON) for NOW and he is calling out a people for his name sake. There is no need for sacrificing because he was the PERFECT sacrifice. Actually living under Grace we are called to an even HIGHER standard than the Law. Now after the church is gone, the Lord will begin to deal with the Jewish nation again and during the 1000 year reign, I believe the bible teaches that the Lord Jesus will reinstitute the Law. But for now... we live under grace.

I don't know if any of that made sense to you but let me give you an example of being called to live a higher standard than the Law... Jesus said this...

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So you see, even THINKING about it is a sin... THAT is now the standard for the Christian.

called to live a higher standard than the Law
The higher standard is Love.

Jesus said there are two Commandments now, Love God and Love your neighbor (i.e. everyone).

YEs, we are called to Love. No doubt about it.

They list them all.

Not quite.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm)

Notice how the commandment about graven images is not listed as one of the commandments?

Not quite.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm)

Notice how the commandment about graven images is not listed as one of the commandments?


?? Your link has the graven images, it is on the left, even jumps right at you,
And the "catholic" list is the same list used by the Lutheran church, the Anglican church, and most all churches

??? your link has the graven images, it is on the left, even jumps right at you,
And the "catholic" list is the same list used by the Lutheran church, the Anglican church, and most all churches

That is the quote from Exodus (which does indeed contain a prohibition against graven images), not the official 10 commandments of the Catholic Church. You will not find a listing of the ten commandments from the Roman catholic Church that lists the prohibition against graven images as a commandment.

Not quite.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm)

Notice how the commandment about graven images is not listed as one of the commandments?
Not true. There are variations among Christians for numbering all the Commandments which affects which number refers to what sin. Some Christians separate One & Two, No Other Gods and Graven Images; Lutherans and Catholics lump them together into one commandment. The opposite is done with the last two commandments. Some Christians lump them together; Lutherans and Catholics say Nine is coveting things and Ten is coveting people.

Not true. There are variations among Christians for numbering all the Commandments which affects which number refers to what sin. Some Christians separate One & Two, No Other Gods and Graven Images; Lutherans and Catholics lump them together into one commandment. The opposite is done with the last two commandments. Some Christians lump them together; Lutherans and Catholics say Nine is coveting things and Ten is coveting people.
Not shure what denominations you might be referring to that use a different ten commandments other than those given in Du 5?
If they are using something different I would be very suspicious of that organization. For if it isn't in the Bible or if they have modified what is in the Bible they are not following God.

Not true. There are variations among Christians for numbering all the Commandments which affects which number refers to what sin.

I did not say that there not variations, did I? In fact I pointed out a variation.

I simply responding to your comment about one specific group of denominations by pointing out that they did not include that commandment.

Not shure what denominations you might be referring to that use a different ten commandments other than those given in Du 5?
If they are using something different i would be very suspicious of that organization. for if it aint in the Bible or if they have modified what is in the Bible they are not following God.
Different order, not different commandments.

The division of Exodus 20:2-17 into ten parts has been done differently in history by various theologians whose divisions were adopted by their church (or rejected by those not of their church).

The oldest method, found in the writings of Philo and Josephus (first century), takes verse 3 as the first commandment, verses 4 through 6 as the second, and so forth. This is called the Philonic division, and it was adopted by the Orthodox Greek Church and by MOST Protestants with the exception of the Lutherans.

Later the Jewish Talmud (third century) treated the preface in verses 1 and 2 as the first of ten "sayings" and combined verses 3-6 as the second saying. This is called the Talmudic division, and was adopted by all Jews.

In the fifth century Saint Augustine listed the ten commandments by beginning with the Talmudic second saying as the first commandment; and, following the word order of Deuteronomy 5:21, making the ninth commandment a prohibition of the coveting of a neighbor's wife, and the tenth a prohibition of coveting his house and other property. This is known as the Augustinian division.

The Roman Catholic church accepted Augustine's method, and Luther also continued in this tradition with one modification: he preferred to follow the word order of Exodus 20, and so his ninth commandment became a prohibition against coveting the house and his tenth prohibited coveting the wife, slaves, and animals. Lutherans continue to follow this method.

The above being true, the following is in some dispute...

Presbyterians follow the order given by God to Saint Presbytus on the sacred Isle of Iona, deleting commandments 4 and 6, footnoting exceptions to 7, 8, and 9, and inclusively retranslating #10 to include the coveting of one's husband; a copy of which lies somewhere beneath the abbey of Saint Andrews, patron saint of all true believers and golfers.

--from rotation.org (Theology and Denominational Questions)

Thanks for pointing out what I have recently discovered. Most christians are hopelessly and completely lost. I think the whole christian faith is doomed, for failure. What you pointed out is exactly the problem. Picking and choosing, what you think is right for you.

But I don't blame the pastors who are just interested in fleecing their flocks and don't even know or care about the truth and educating them on the ways of the lord. The bible that I have a problem with because it so conveniently skewed, to keep the masses coming so they can continually be brainwashed and so the cycle continues.

By posting and asking these questions I feel you are well on your way to discovering what it means to be a believer in God. But don't look to the bible for these answers cause personally that book makes no sense to me. I was once in your position and I discovered a way of spirituality and connecting to the one and only god, who is the creator and tapping into his endless stream of light. That is what this life is about and not who is the most devout christian.

Thanks for pointing out what i have recently discovered. Most christians are hopelessly and completely lost. I think the whole christian faith is doomed, for failure. What you pointed out is exactly the problem. Picking and choosing, what you think is right for you.

But i don't blame the pastors who are just interested in fleecing their flocks and don't even know or care about the truth and educating them on the ways of the lord. The bible that i have a problem with because it so conveniently skewed, to keep the masses coming so they can continually be brainwashed and so the cycle continues.

By posting and asking these questions i feel you are well on your way to discovering what it means to be a believer in God. But don't look to the bible for these answers cause personally that book makes no sense to me. I was once in your position and i discovered a way of spirituality and connecting to the one and only god, who is the creator and tapping into his endless stream of light. That is what this life is bout and not who is the most devout christian.


Wow. You have some seriously strong statements in your post that can not be backed up except by what YOU THINK. Christianity is NOT doomed.. quite the contrary. There are many Christians that simply do not know how to rightly divide the word of God.. it is a process. I can assure you that NO ONE picks and chooses if they have any understand of God's word.

My adivise is completely diffent than... if you want to know God and have a deeper understanding of him and his enless stream of light... you need to read the Bible. But before you do, I would suggested praying and asking the Lord to direct you, open your eyes and then send people in your path that can help you along the way.

wow. You have some seriously strong statments in your post that can not be backed up except by what YOU THINK. Christianity is NOT doomed..quite the contrary. There are many Christians that simply do not know how to rightly divide the word of God..it is a process. I can assure you that NO ONE picks and chooses if they have any understand of God's word.

My adivise is completely diffent than...if you want to know God and have a deeper understanding of him and his enless stream of light...you need to read the Bible. But before you do, i would suggested praying and asking the Lord to direct you, open your eyes and then send people in your path that can help you along the way.

I read the bible and it made absolutely no sense to me. Here's my problem with the bible, it's like a riddle/code that preachers try to explain when they don't even know the meaning in itself. I found the truth when I becan the study of kaballah and reading the zohar, its all the things the bible says but its more detailed and it made sense to me. (i.e) when jacob fought with the angel and would not let go of him until he blessed him. Kaballah offered me an explanation to this that made sense to me. i.e when abraham was out in the night plotting the stars, bible does not tell you the importance of such an act, understanding astrology is another post but make no mistake we where born @ the exact time that was needed for us to fulfill our destiny on this earth. Fundamental basics such as birth date and it relevance on our destiny would definelty be an asset to people searching for their sole purpose in this life. I guess different strokes for different folks. I am very fortunate to have found a spiritual teaching that has answered all of the questions the church was not able to do so.

Look I am not going against the church I just feel that people.individuals don't need religion i.e christianity to be close to God or have him in their hearts. God is so readily available to all of us as we are born and created in his image. Everyone is God within their own selves.

Denouncing christianity has allowed me to think outside the box and not worry if my thoughts and acts are sins against God. The only time I pray now is when I am meditating and trying to elevate myself higher, so that I can tap into gods light, but to sit down and saw the our father I will not. The supplement and consciousness of my mind and heart connecting to my soul and allowing the creators light to shine through is all the guidance I need in this life.:)

I read the bible and it made absolutly no sense to me. Here's my problem with the bible, it's like a riddle/code that preachers try to explain when they dont even know the meaning in itself. I found the truth when i becan the study of kaballah and reading the zohar, its all the things the bible says but its more detailed and it made sense to me. (i.e) when jacob fought with the angel and would not let go of him until he blessed him. Kaballah offered me an explanation to this that made sense to me. i.e when abraham was out in the night plotting the stars, bible does not tell you the importance of such an act, understanding astrology is another post but make no mistake we where born @ the exact time that was needed for us to fufill our destiny on this earth. Fundamental basics such as birth date and it relevance on our destiny would definelty be an asset to people searching for their sole purpose in this life. I guess different strokes for different folks. I am very fortunate to have found a spiritual teaching that has answered all of the questions the church was not able to do so.

Look i am not going against the church i just feel that people.individuals dont need religion i.e christianity to be close to God or have him in their hearts. God is so readily available to all of us as we are born and created in his image. Everyone is God within their own selves.

Denouncing christianity has allowed me to think outside the box and not worry if my thoughts and acts are sins against God. The only time i pray now is when i am meditating and trying to elevate myself higher, so that i can tap into gods light, but to sit down and saw the our father i will not. The supplement and conciousness of my mind and heart connecting to my soul and allowing the creators light to shine through is all the guidance i need in this life.:)

Since you feel you are so enlightened with this new found religion of your you should do a web search for cults and read up on how to spot them. You to me sound like you are spouting one of the "new age" religions theme song!

I read the bible and it made absolutly no sense to me. Here's my problem with the bible, it's like a riddle/code that preachers try to explain when they dont even know the meaning in itself. I found the truth when i becan the study of kaballah and reading the zohar, its all the things the bible says but its more detailed and it made sense to me. (i.e) when jacob fought with the angel and would not let go of him until he blessed him. Kaballah offered me an explanation to this that made sense to me. i.e when abraham was out in the night plotting the stars, bible does not tell you the importance of such an act, understanding astrology is another post but make no mistake we where born @ the exact time that was needed for us to fufill our destiny on this earth. Fundamental basics such as birth date and it relevance on our destiny would definelty be an asset to people searching for their sole purpose in this life. I guess different strokes for different folks. I am very fortunate to have found a spiritual teaching that has answered all of the questions the church was not able to do so.

Look i am not going against the church i just feel that people.individuals dont need religion i.e christianity to be close to God or have him in their hearts. God is so readily available to all of us as we are born and created in his image. Everyone is God within their own selves.

Denouncing christianity has allowed me to think outside the box and not worry if my thoughts and acts are sins against God. The only time i pray now is when i am meditating and trying to elevate myself higher, so that i can tap into gods light, but to sit down and saw the our father i will not. The supplement and conciousness of my mind and heart connecting to my soul and allowing the creators light to shine through is all the guidance i need in this life.:)

Well, I suppose I do see why you denounce Christianity. You want God on your terms, you are trying to elevate yourself so you can tape into HIS light. God says to humble yourself before him, recognize you have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Scripture also teaches there is only one way to the Father through Jesus Christ. (John 14:6)
He even says lets reason this out together, though your sins are as scarlett they can be white as snow. The problem you have is thinking that YOU can in fact reach that LIGHT on your own, without his Son, without doing it HIS way. Can't be done. I'm sorry and I mean no disrespect to you. I do not tell you this on my authority, I tell you this because it is what the Word teaches. You may in fact have the "feel goods" and the experience of a "connection" but don't be deceived. God sent HIS ONLY SON to die and suffer the sins of humanity and he says there is ONLY ONE WAY you can come to me.. thru HIM.. the LORD JESUS.

I have boys. I love them more than anything in the whole wide world. I mean Honestly the love I have for them is so powerful I can't put it into words. I'm thinking if I had to give up my oldest son to save the entire world and it was the only way to do it and then people began to complain and say that's nice that you did that an alll but I have this "spirtual enlightening" thing happening in my life and I don't NEED your WAY... man I'd be so ticked. My son means everything to me... and I am just a sinful woman with sinful boys. How much more insulting can you be when you say NO to a Holy God who sent his Sinless Son? But I've got good news. God isn't ticked with you, he isn't like ME. He loves you and he is trying his best to get you to see you are wrong. Don't give up on the LORD and Christianity.. he is a GOOD God and he loves you very much.

Since you feel you are so enlightened with this new found religion of your you should do a web search for cults and read up on how to spot them. You to me sound like you are spouting one of the "new age" religions theme song!

I'm afraid to hit the "disagree" button since I have been reprimanded for not using it in the correct way, so let me just say it here. I disagree. She never said she had found a whole new religion. She just found her way to God without all the hulla-baloo that the christians on this board are fighting over once again. BTW, "new age" is not a dirty word that she "spouted".

To suggest that she read about cults is an insult to her intelligence. Like she does not know her own mind, when quite the opposite is true. It is the followers of this version or that version of the bible that does not know their own mind or essence. They are looking for someone or something to tell them how to believe.

Since you feel you are so enlightened with this new found religion of your you should do a web search for cults and read up on how to spot them. You to me sound like you are spouting one of the "new age" religions theme song!

ohh let me correct you before you go to far, my study of kabbalah is a spiritual study. Its not a religion like christianity etc. Big difference I don't belong to any organized or unorganized religion. But I am a believer of God. Most people think you should believe in god and group yourself with a religion, but that is not true and I am proof of it. I believe there is a creator a supreme human being that created us and that is God the one and only creator.

Let talk about this cult thing you mentioned. First lets start with the definition of the word cult"

Dictionary definitions
Dictionary definitions of the term "cult" include at least eight different meanings. These include both classic and unorthodox religious practice, extreme political practice, objects or concepts of intense devotion including popular fashion, and systems for the cure of disease based on dogmatic teachings.[16]
The Merriam-Webster online dictionary lists five different definitions of the word "cult."[16]
1. Formal religious veneration
2. A system of religious beliefs and ritual; also: its body of adherents;
3. A religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also: its body of adherents;
4. A system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator;
5. Great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book).
The Random House Unabridged Dictionary's eight definitions of "cult" are:
1. A particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies;
2. An instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers;
3. The object of such devotion;
4. A group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc;
5. Group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols;
6. A religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader;
7. The members of such a religion or sect;
8. Any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.
Webster's New World College Dictionary defines "cult" as:
1a. A system of religious worship or ritual
1b. A quasi-religious group, often living in a colony, with a charismatic leader who indoctrinates members with unorthodox or extremist views, practices or beliefs
2a. Devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for, a person, principle or lifestyle, especially when regarded as a fad [the cult of nudism]
2b. The object of such attachment
3. a group of followers, sect
For authoritative British usage, the Compact Oxford English Dictionary of Current English definitions of "cult" and "sect" are:
cult[18]
1 a system of religious worship directed towards a particular figure or object.
to a small religious group regarded as strange or as imposing excessive control over members.
3 something popular or fashionable among a particular section of society.
sect[19]
1 a group of people with different religious beliefs (typically regarded as heretical) from those of a larger group to which they belong.
to a group with extreme or dangerous philosophical or political ideas.
British "sect" formerly included a contextually implied meaning, of what "cult" now means in both USA and the UK.[20] Some other nations still use the foreign equivalents of old British "sect" ("secte," "sekte," or "secta." etc.) to imply "cult."[21] Both words, as well as "cult" in its original sense of cultus (e.g. Middle Ages cult of Mary), must be understood to correctly interpret 20th century popular cult references in world English.

Surely Kaballah is not a religion like christianity etc. its only a spiritual belief and there's a hugh difference. But I don't blame you cause if you do belong to an organized religion it really does not encourage members to think out of the box.

Well, i suppose i do see why you denounce Christianity. You want God on your terms, you are trying to elevate yourself so you can tape into HIS light. God says to humble yourself before him, recognize you have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Scripture also teaches there is only one way to the Father thru Jesus Christ. (John 14:6)
He even says lets reason this out together, though your sins are as scarlett they can be white as snow. The problem you have is thinking that YOU can in fact reach that LIGHT on your own, without his Son, without doing it HIS way. Can't be done. I'm sorry and I mean no disrespect to you. I do not tell you this on my authority, I tell you this because it is what the Word teaches. You may in fact have the "feel goods" and the experience of a "connection" but don't be deceived. God sent HIS ONLY SON to die and suffer the sins of humanity and he says there is ONLY ONE WAY you can come to me..thru HIM..the LORD JESUS.

I have boys. I love them more than anything in the whole wide world. I mean Honestly the love i have for them is so powerful i can't put it into words. I'm thinking if I had to give up my oldest son to save the entire world and it was the only way to do it and then people began to complain and say that's nice that you did that an alll but I have this "spirtual enlightening" thing happenin in my life and I don't NEED your WAY...man I'd be so ticked. My son means everything to me...and I am just a sinful woman with sinful boys. How much more insulting can you be when you say NO to a Holy God who sent his Sinless Son? But I've got good news. God isn't ticked with you, he isn't like ME. He loves you and he is trying his best to get you to see you are wrong. Don't give up on the LORD and Christianity..he is a GOOD God and he loves you very much.


Thanks for sharing your views but I don't share them anymore. I believe and love jesus and try to be more like him, but he is not my saviour. I am my own saviour. Jesus even said that all we need to be close to god is already within us.

I'm afraid to hit the "disagree" button since I have been reprimanded for not using it in the correct way, so let me just say it here. I disagree. She never said she had found a whole new religion. She just found her way to God without all the hulla-baloo that the christians on this board are fighting over once again. BTW, "new age" is not a dirty word that she "spouted".

To suggest that she read about cults is an insult to her intelligence. Like she does not know her own mind, when quite the opposite is true. It is the followers of this version or that version of the bible that does not know their own mind or essence. They are looking for someone or something to tell them how to believe.

Thank you so much for getting it. The behaviour these christian on this board display is exactly the problem. Closed minded quoting all this passages from the bible is absolutely irrelevant to me anyway. Only difference with me these days is that I have a spiritual belief that does not belong to any organized religion. This belief allows me to love God and Jesus:).

Since you are so enlightened, maybe you should study this web site for a definition
IDENTIFYING A CULT (http://www.religio.de/cudef.html)
Or
Frontline Ministries - How to Identify a Cult (http://www.frontlinemin.org/cult.asp)
Sorry to say, but In my opinion your description fits right into the classic cult mantra.

I'm afraid to hit the "disagree" button since I have been reprimanded for not using it in the correct way, so let me just say it here. I disagree.

T.


Glad to see you finally figured out that if you disagree with something said that it does not deserve a reddie, unless factually incorrect. Rather you simply state your opposition to a comment/comments by another poster:D

Since you are so enlightened, maybe you should study this web site for a definition
IDENTIFYING A CULT (http://www.religio.de/cudef.html)
Sorry to say, but your description fits right into the classic cult mantra.

Yep! I don't blame you after years of being brainwashed by your religion its impossible to think that the true cult is really the religious group you follow.

Cause when I read the definition of cult Christianity can definitely fall into this category of a cult. Really is a cult a bad thing? Or are you another victim of media propaganda that group cults from such a negative view point. My understanding of the world cult is more open than yours! Just like my views on spirituality are more open! Hmmm I sense a pattern here ohh yes its all about the church and their constant brainwashing of their followers. I really feel bad for you, being so limited and operating under the laws of the church and not really being able to express oneself fully. So sad:(.

But there is a light in the midst of all this chaos as a speci we are now moving into the age of aquarius which is the age where people will begin to ask questions, and look past the church and its limited views to find answers. I am more than proud to say that I do belong to that movement and whatever name you have for it that's your business.

One more thing the church has always tried to silence people that defy their laws by painting a bad picutre of them, making it look like if you don't follow the churche's laws you're a renegage. Think back hundreds of years ago where secret societies like the free masons and the luminates tried to find scientific reasons for our existence and the church branded them as outlaws.

These acts by the church has been going on for so long cause they have gulable people that don't want to do the hard work to reach enlightenment, like working ont heir insides, from the soul within. Instead its more conveneint to go to church every Sunday ad listen to the pastor preach. To my that's complete nonesense and these so called christians are really taking the easy way out.

What we are moving into, Lighterrr, are the final stages of the last days.
When the Church leaves, those who wanted to be free from the influence of those brainwashed Christians will get their wish.

They will enjoy the sensation for maybe a few days.

The age of aquarius will not look so good after that.

You don't believe that now. You will, trust me on this.

What we are moving into, Lighterrr, are the final stages of the last days.
When the Church leaves, those who wanted to be free from the influence of those brainwashed Christians will get their wish.

They will enjoy the sensation for maybe a few days.

The age of aquarius will not look so good after that.

You don't believe that now. You will, trust me on this.

Please elaborate I do want to hear more

ere has been much confusion about cults and how to 'pickem'.

I clicked on your cult link and this is what I discovered.

Some have difficulty identifying a cult because it is not so easy to identify one that is not even religious. For this reason, over the years, different definitions of what actually is a cult have developed to make it easier when you know little about their beliefs.

The different definitions:

SECULAR DEFINITION
CULT - From the Latin "cultis" which denotes all that is involved in worship, ritual, emotion, liturgy and attitude. This definition actually denotes what we call denominations and sects and would make all religious movements a cult.

That's not me. Not part of a religious movement or denomination.

CHRISTIAN DEFINITION

CULT - Any group which deviates from Biblical, orthodox, historical Christianity. e.I. They deny the Deity of Christ; His physical resurrection; His personal and physical return to earth and salvation by FAITH alone.

Not me. I deviate from the bible only because there is no way to know it is correct but I do not deny a diety because I believe He dwells in all of us at a certain level.

This definition only covers those groups which are cults within the Christian religion. It does not cover cults within other world religions such as Islam and Hinduism. Nor does it cover Psychological, Commercial or Educational cults which do not recognize the Bible as a source of reality.

UNIVERSAL DEFINITION

CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members. This definition covers cults within all majopr world religions, along with those cults which have no OBVIOUS religious base such as commercial, educational and psychological cults. Others may define these a little differently, but this is the simplest to work from. THE 'ORTHODOX BIBLE-BASED CULT'

Not me either.

A group is called a cult because of their behaviour - not their doctrines. Doctrine is an issue in the area of Apologetics and Heresy. Most religious cults do teach what the Christian church would declare to be heresy but some do not. Some cults teach the basics of the Christian faith but have behavioural patterns that are abusive, controlling and cultic.

Not me.

This occurs in both Non-Charismatic and Charismatic churches. These groups teach the central doctrines of the Christian faith and then add the extra authority of leadership or someone's particular writings. They centre around the interpretations of the leadership and submissive and unquestioning acceptance of these is essential to be a member of good standing. This acceptance includes what we consider non-essential doctrines e.I. not salvation issues (such as the Person and Work of Christ.) The key is that they will be using mind control or undue influence on their members.

Not me. Sounds more like Catholics and some christians.

An excellent book on this subject is "Churches that Abuse" by Dr Ronald Enroth.

Using these guidelines of definition, Bible-based, Psychological, Educational and Commercial aberrations can easily be identified.

OTHER IDENTIFICATION MARKS

(a) The group will have an ELITIST view of itself in relation to others, and a UNIQUE CAUSE. e.I. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES RIGHT - everyone else is wrong. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING GOD'S WILL - everyone else is in apostasy.

This describes the christian cult. This is not me for sure.


(b) They will promote their cause actively, and in doing so, abuse God-given personal rights and freedoms. This abuse can be THEOLOGICAL, SPIRITUAL, SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL.

HOW THEY DO THIS

1. Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority given by God.

Like the pope?


2. They believe they are the only true church and take a critical stance regarding the Christian church while at the same time praising and exalting their own group, leader/s and work.

3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon; being shunned by their family and friends etc. This is a vital part of the mind control process.

4. Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group. This could be compulsory tithing (which is checked); signing over all their property on entering the group; coercive methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contributed; selling magazines, flowers or other goods for the group as part of their "ministry".

5. At the same time bible-based cults may ridicule churches that take up free-will offerings by passing collection plates and/or sell literature and tapes. They usually brag that they don't do this. This gives outsiders the intimation that they are not interested in money.

6. There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings. The lives of members will be totally absorbed into the group's activities. They will have little or no time to think for themselves because of physical and emotional exhaustion. This is also a vital part of the mind control process.

7. There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members. This control can be direct through communal living, or constant and repetitious teaching on "how to be a true Christian" or "being obedient to leadership". Members will look to their leaders for guidance in everything they do.

8. Bible-based cults may proclaim they have no clergy/laity distinction and no paid ministry class - that they are all equal.

9. Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission. This is vigilantly maintained.

10. Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way. This could be in the form of "dobbing" on fellow members (including family) under the guise of looking out for "spiritual welfare".

They may be required to deliberately lie (heavenly deception/theocratic strategy) or give up their lives by refusing some form of medical treatment.

11. Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats. Some may have taken oaths of loyalty that involve their lives or have signed a "covenant" and feel threatened by this.

Refugees of the group are usually faced with confrontations by other members with coercion to get them to return to the group.

Definitely not me.

SOME ABUSES OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS:-

1. ABUSE OF INDIVIDUALITY They adopt a "groupness" mentality. They are not permitted to think for themselves apart from the group and only accept what they are told.

2. ABUSE OF INTIMACY Relationships with friends, relatives, spouses, children, parents etc are broken or seriously hampered.

3. ABUSE OF FINANCES Pressure to give all you can to the group. In non-communal groups, members usually live at the lower socio-economic strata, not because of a lower income level, but because they are always giving money to the group for some reason.

Ewww, I know a church of god person that does this. Creepy.

4. "US VERSUS THEM" MENTALITY Isolation from the community in general. Anyone and everything outside the group is seen as "of the devil" or "unenlightened" etc. Their enemies now include former friends; the Christian church; governments; education systems; the media - the world in general. Those who are involved with these in any way see such involvement as a "means to an end".

The part I bolded sounds like the christians motivation for believing.

5. ABUSE OF TIME AND ENERGY The group controls and uses almost all the members time and energy in group activities. They are usually in a constant state of mental and physical exhaustion.

6. ABUSE OF FREE WILL They must unquestioning submit to the groups teachings and directions and their own free will is broken. Their "will" actually becomes the groups "will" without their realizing it. This is done either by coercive methods including low protein diets and lack of sleep, or over a period through intimidation. Both methods make heavy use of "guilt".

RESULTS OF THIS ABUSE

1. PERSONALITY CHANGES
Relatives will say they no longer recognize the person. From a warm, loving personality will come heaped abuse, rejection and feelings of hate. The cult member sees himself as "righteous" in comparison and this comes across in their attitude toward all outsiders.

2. LOSS OF IDENTITY
They cannot see themselves as individuals apart from the group. Some even change their name as a rejection of their former life.

3. PARANOID - WE ARE BEING PERSECUTED
Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no, it is regarded as "persecution". Any criticism of the individual is also seen as persecution only because they are the "true Christian" or "enlightened" one - not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However, at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say and do because they are "the only ones who are right".

4. SOCIAL DISORIENTATION
They lose their ability to socialize outside the group. This can go so far as to not being able to structure their time or make simple decisions for themselves when they leave.

Their world-view alters and they perceive the world through their leaders eyes. They become very naïve about life in general.

5. SEVERE GUILT COMPLEXES
They are made to feel guilty of everything they did before entering the group and are to strive to be "good" and "worthy" for "eternal life". Misdemeanors are made into "mountains" so that members are in a constant state of guilt for infringing even the most minor rules. Guilt comes because they aren't doing enough; entertaining doubts or questions; even thinking rationally for oneself.

This guilt is piled upon pile with new rules constantly being laid down about what is sinful and what is not. Illness may be seen as lack of faith - more guilt. Emotional illness may be seen as proof of sin in your life - more guilt.

SUMMARY

Not all these points will be found in every cult, but all cults will have some if not most of them, although these may vary to some degree.

Copyright 1985, 1991 Jan Groenveld
Internet Address: [email protected]
Mail: PO Box 2444 Mansfield Q 4122 Australia

Reproduction is permitted only if text is intact. The above identifying information must be left intact.

After reading all of this, I can truly say that I am not "cult material". Neither is our kaballa friend.

ere has been much confusion about cults and how to 'pickem'.

I clicked on your cult link and this is what I discovered.

Some have difficulty identifying a cult because it is not so easy to identify one that is not even religious. For this reason, over the years, different definitions of what actually is a cult have developed to make it easier when you know little about their beliefs.

The different definitions:

SECULAR DEFINITION
CULT - From the Latin "cultis" which denotes all that is involved in worship, ritual, emotion, liturgy and attitude. This definition actually denotes what we call denominations and sects and would make all religious movements a cult.

That's not me. Not part of a religious movement or denomination.

CHRISTIAN DEFINITION

CULT - Any group which deviates from Biblical, orthodox, historical Christianity. e.i. They deny the Deity of Christ; His physical resurrection; His personal and physical return to earth and salvation by FAITH alone.

Not me. I deviate from the bible only because there is no way to know it is correct but I do not deny a diety because I believe He dwells in all of us at a certain level.

This definition only covers those groups which are cults within the Christian religion. It does not cover cults within other world religions such as Islam and Hinduism. Nor does it cover Psychological, Commercial or Educational cults which do not recognize the Bible as a source of reality.

UNIVERSAL DEFINITION

CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members. This definition covers cults within all majopr world religions, along with those cults which have no OBVIOUS religious base such as commercial, educational and psychological cults. Others may define these a little differently, but this is the simplest to work from. THE 'ORTHODOX BIBLE-BASED CULT'

Not me either.

A group is called a cult because of their behaviour - not their doctrines. Doctrine is an issue in the area of Apologetics and Heresy. Most religious cults do teach what the Christian church would declare to be heresy but some do not. Some cults teach the basics of the Christian faith but have behavioural patterns that are abusive, controlling and cultic.

Not me.

This occurs in both Non-Charismatic and Charismatic churches. These groups teach the central doctrines of the Christian faith and then add the extra authority of leadership or someone's particular writings. They centre around the interpretations of the leadership and submissive and unquestioning acceptance of these is essential to be a member of good standing. This acceptance includes what we consider non-essential doctrines e.i. not salvation issues (such as the Person and Work of Christ.) The key is that they will be using mind control or undue influence on their members.

Not me. Sounds more like Catholics and some christians.

An excellent book on this subject is "Churches that Abuse" by Dr Ronald Enroth.

Using these guidelines of definition, Bible-based, Psychological, Educational and Commercial aberrations can easily be identified.

OTHER IDENTIFICATION MARKS

(a) The group will have an ELITIST view of itself in relation to others, and a UNIQUE CAUSE. e.i. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES RIGHT - everyone else is wrong. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING GOD'S WILL - everyone else is in apostasy.

This describes the christian cult. This is not me for sure.


(b) They will promote their cause actively, and in doing so, abuse God-given personal rights and freedoms. This abuse can be THEOLOGICAL, SPIRITUAL, SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL.

HOW THEY DO THIS

1. Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority given by God.

Like the pope?


2. They believe they are the only true church and take a critical stance regarding the Christian church while at the same time praising and exalting their own group, leader/s and work.

3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon; being shunned by their family and friends etc. This is a vital part of the mind control process.

4. Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group. This could be compulsory tithing (which is checked); signing over all their property on entering the group; coercive methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contributed; selling magazines, flowers or other goods for the group as part of their "ministry".

5. At the same time bible-based cults may ridicule churches that take up free-will offerings by passing collection plates and/or sell literature and tapes. They usually brag that they don't do this. This gives outsiders the intimation that they are not interested in money.

6. There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings. The lives of members will be totally absorbed into the group's activities. They will have little or no time to think for themselves because of physical and emotional exhaustion. This is also a vital part of the mind control process.

7. There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members. This control can be direct through communal living, or constant and repetitious teaching on "how to be a true Christian" or "being obedient to leadership". Members will look to their leaders for guidance in everything they do.

8. Bible-based cults may proclaim they have no clergy/laity distinction and no paid ministry class - that they are all equal.

9. Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission. This is vigilantly maintained.

10. Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way. This could be in the form of "dobbing" on fellow members (including family) under the guise of looking out for "spiritual welfare".

They may be required to deliberately lie (heavenly deception/theocratic strategy) or give up their lives by refusing some form of medical treatment.

11. Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats. Some may have taken oaths of loyalty that involve their lives or have signed a "covenant" and feel threatened by this.

Refugees of the group are usually faced with confrontations by other members with coercion to get them to return to the group.

Definitely not me.

SOME ABUSES OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS:-

1. ABUSE OF INDIVIDUALITY They adopt a "groupness" mentality. They are not permitted to think for themselves apart from the group and only accept what they are told.

2. ABUSE OF INTIMACY Relationships with friends, relatives, spouses, children, parents etc are broken or seriously hampered.

3. ABUSE OF FINANCES Pressure to give all you can to the group. In non-communal groups, members usually live at the lower socio-economic strata, not because of a lower income level, but because they are always giving money to the group for some reason.

Ewww, I know a church of god person that does this. Creepy.

4. "US VERSUS THEM" MENTALITY Isolation from the community in general. Anyone and everything outside the group is seen as "of the devil" or "unenlightened" etc. Their enemies now include former friends; the Christian church; governments; education systems; the media - the world in general. Those who are involved with these in any way see such involvement as a "means to an end".

The part I bolded sounds like the christians motivation for believing.

5. ABUSE OF TIME AND ENERGY The group controls and uses almost all the members time and energy in group activities. They are usually in a constant state of mental and physical exhaustion.

6. ABUSE OF FREE WILL They must unquestioning submit to the groups teachings and directions and their own free will is broken. Their "will" actually becomes the groups "will" without their realizing it. This is done either by coercive methods including low protein diets and lack of sleep, or over a period of time through intimidation. Both methods make heavy use of "guilt".

RESULTS OF THIS ABUSE

1. PERSONALITY CHANGES
Relatives will say they no longer recognize the person. From a warm, loving personality will come heaped abuse, rejection and feelings of hate. The cult member sees himself as "righteous" in comparison and this comes across in their attitude toward all outsiders.

2. LOSS OF IDENTITY
They cannot see themselves as individuals apart from the group. Some even change their name as a rejection of their former life.

3. PARANOID - WE ARE BEING PERSECUTED
Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no, it is regarded as "persecution". Any criticism of the individual is also seen as persecution only because they are the "true Christian" or "enlightened" one - not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However, at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say and do because they are "the only ones who are right".

4. SOCIAL DISORIENTATION
They lose their ability to socialize outside the group. This can go so far as to not being able to structure their time or make simple decisions for themselves when they leave.

Their world-view alters and they perceive the world through their leaders eyes. They become very naive about life in general.

5. SEVERE GUILT COMPLEXES
They are made to feel guilty of everything they did before entering the group and are to strive to be "good" and "worthy" for "eternal life". Misdemeanors are made into "mountains" so that members are in a constant state of guilt for infringing even the most minor rules. Guilt comes because they aren't doing enough; entertaining doubts or questions; even thinking rationally for oneself.

This guilt is piled upon pile with new rules constantly being laid down about what is sinful and what is not. Illness may be seen as lack of faith - more guilt. Emotional illness may be seen as proof of sin in your life - more guilt.

SUMMARY

Not all these points will be found in every cult, but all cults will have some if not most of them, although these may vary to some degree.

Copyright 1985, 1991 Jan Groenveld
Internet Address: [email protected]
Mail: PO Box 2444 Mansfield Q 4122 Australia

Reproduction is permitted only if text is intact. The above identifying information must be left intact.

After reading all of this, I can truly say that I am not "cult material". Neither is our kaballa friend.


TYVM:):D

I am so onboard with you

Thank you so much for getting it. The behaviour these christian on this board display is exactly the problem. Closed minded quoting all this passages from the bible is absolutely irrelevant to me anyways. Only difference with me these days is that i have a spiritual belief that does not belong to any organized religion. This belief allows me to love God and Jesus:).

Actually some of us here are NOT closed mind. Some of us DO understand the Bible but evidently can not make others understand what their minds are closed to.
Religion is not the answer.
Calculating logic in your own reasoning no matter how spiritual it seems is not the complete answer.
Knowing God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit IS the answer.

Actually some of us here are NOT closed mind. Some of us DO understand the Bible but evidently can not make others understand what their minds are closed to.
Religion is not the answer.
Calculating logic in your own reasoning no matter how spiritual it seems is not the complete answer.
Knowing God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit IS the answer.

No help, you are right. I know God he lives in my, I meditate to tap into his endless light of love. I love jesus I believe he came to reunite and bring jews and gentiles together and to teach us how to live and treat each other. Knowing god,holy spirit and jesus is great but feeling their presence in your life and changing you ways to emulate the life of christ is a different issue. I also find that most people who refer to themselves a member of organized religion, really hide behind the title and really don't do much more than that, meaning they really make a minimal effort to find God within themselves and trying to connect to the soul within.

The only difference that I can see from me and mainstream Christians is that I don't see jesus as my lord and saviour, I see myself as the author of my destiny and all that I need in this life to draw near to God is found within me and not the church. To me there is only one God the creator.

Like I always say being in a garage does not make you a car nor a mechanic.
Going to church does not make you a Christian.
Drug dealers and the Mafia will tell you they are Christian because they sit in Church ever Sunday and/or their mama & grandma told them they were Christian all their life.

No help, you are right. I know God he lives in my, I meditate to tap into his endless light of love. I love jesus I believe he came to reunite and bring jews and gentiles together and to teach us how to live and treat each other. Knowing god,holy spirit and jesus is great but feeling their presence in your life and changing you ways to emulate the life of christ is a different issue. I also find that most people who refer to themselves a member of organized religion, really hide behind the title and really don't do much more than that, meaning they really make a minimal effort to find God within themselves and trying to connect to the soul within.

The only difference that i can see from me and mainstream Christians is that I don't see jesus as my lord and saviour, i see myself as the author of my destiny and all that i need in this life to draw near to God is found within me and not the church. To me there is only one God the creator.

I have seen people on this board who call themselves Christians and maybe I have question it from some of their answers. But there are MANY on this board that DO know what Christianity is all about. They have really great knowledge of the Lord and they back up their beliefs with the only real thing they can... The word of God. I'd rather pick up the bible and listen to what God has to say and know for sure that I am doing the right thing. It isn't about coming to him in some spiritual experience. I mean NO disrespect at all when I asked this question but I am curious as to how you connect with God? Is there some guidelines you use? Do you use a Bible? And what do you do with Jesus who is the Christ? YOu say you love him but he died for you and you say you are your own savior. I guess I just don't know how you approach the LORD knowing that you reject his sacrifice he made for you. How does it all work?

i have seen people on this board who call themselves Christians and maybe i have question it from some of their answers. But there are MANY on this board that DO know what Christianity is all about. They have really great knowledge of the Lord and they back up their beliefs with the only real thing they can...The word of God. I'd rather pick up the bible and listen to what God has to say and know for sure that I am doing the right thing. It isn't about coming to him in some spiritual experience. I mean NO disrespect at all when i asked this question but I am curious as to how you connect with God? Is there some guidelines you use? Do you use a Bible? And what do you do with Jesus who is the Christ? YOu say you love him but he died for you and you say you are your own savior. I guess I just don't know how you approach the LORD knowing that you reject his sacrifice he made for you. How does it all work?

K classy here is how I see it.

I don't believe that jesus christ is the son of God. I believe and truly love jesus and try to emulate the life he led, by loving thy neighbour as thyselves. My biggest problem with jesus is the title the church and bible has given to him as the messiah the gate keeper to god the creator.

I don't think you need Jesus to get to God when our creator has created all human beings in his image, God lives in all of us we are all Gods within our own rights.

When I make contact with the creator. I do it through meditation & fasting and reading the zohar, which is really an explanation of the bible and the laws of the universe and how they apply to its inhabitants. I try to commute my mind, body and soul to center myself so that I may draw nearer to the awesome light of the creator. Even jesus himself fasted and often meditated to draw near to God:). Now I am nowhere as advanced and may never reach the level of enlightenment as some of the great patriots of the bible such as moses, Abraham and of course jesus they had such an intimate relationship with God, their souls where so elevated, to have had such a 1 on 1 interaction with the creator.

Now this spiritual belief has worked very well for me, I am proud to say that I don't belong to any organized religion and proud of it.:D

I agree with De Maria, ebaines and others so far.
As example about circumcision.
It did apply to the Jews but does not apply to the gentiles for they are not bound by the Jewish law.
Jesus did away with some of that old law but not those that He mentioned such as the Ten Commandments.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Dare81
You have made an excellent point.
I have noticed that tendency often expressed by those who are opposed to or dislike organized religion.
But it is not exclusive.
Many of we humans seem to feel or think that we are better then or more superior to others who do not believe as we do.
It works both ways.
In cases like that humility is often laking.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You have become what you disdain. You arguiment here smaks of moral superiority, i am better than these christian, really are you?

I would never say that I am better than anyone, and if my post gave you that impression I apologize. What I am trying to communicate is that I found my peace and calling in this life when I left the church and denounced christianity. That is all.

lighterrr,
To each as he/she wants to believe...
I see that you are interested in the Kabbalah.
So am I.
I believe that Jesus Christ is the Tree of Life of the Kabbalah.
Peace and Kindness,
Fred (arcura)

lighterrr,
To each as he/she wants to believe.....
I see that you are interested in the Kabbalah.
So am I.
I believe that Jesus Christ is the Tree of Life of the Kabbalah.
Peace and Kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Ty fred same to you

I was reading this thread and came across quite valuable and interesting information. While reading, one thing popped out and I got curious to know:-

How do we know that someone has a closed mind and how is it that the person who is telling other, does not has a closed mind himself ?

I was reading this thread and came across quite valuable and interesting information. While reading, one thing popped out and I got curious to know:-

How do we know that someone has a closed mind and how is it that the person who is telling other, does not has a closed mind himself ?

(Romans 12:3) (Eph 4:7)(Eph 4:16)

Scripture says Christ gives each according to the measure of HIS will and love. So what is revealed to one may not be revealed to another. Each are to serve according to what they hear in Christ. = (RIGHTEOUSNESS) And we are to watch carefully to the end of every word. This makes it pretty individual as chosen by God. The vine is Christ and the only way is Christ. HIS sheep hear HIS voice. Christ walked by every letter of HIS Father's will. And we NOW walk as HE walked and in HIM. . .

One day everyone will be judge by the words they speak (Matthew 12:36)

And that is why it is written that prophecy of the scripture is not of private interpretation. Because those who have been gifted to whatever measure Christ has determined, will gain that knowledge by the HOLY SPIRIT in HIS GLORY!

2 Peter 1:2 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Without Christ we can do nothing.

(Romans 12:3) (Eph 4:7)(Eph 4:16)

Scripture says Christ gives each according to the measure of HIS will and love. So what is revealed to one may not be revealed to another. Each are to serve according to what they hear in Christ. = (RIGHTEOUSNESS) And we are to watch carefully to the end of every word. This makes it pretty individual as chosen by God. The vine is Christ and the only way is Christ. HIS sheep hear HIS voice. Christ walked by every letter of HIS Father's will. And we NOW walk as HE walked and in HIM. . .

One day everyone will be judge by the words they speak (Matthew 12:36)

And that is why it is written that prophecy of the scripture is not of private interpretation. Because those who have been gifted to whatever measure Christ has determined, will gain that knowledge by the HOLY SPIRIT in HIS GLORY!

2 Peter 1:2 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Without Christ we can do nothing.

I don't see how this scripture answers the question. In your own words please.:confused:

I don't see how this scripture answers the question. In your own words please.:confused:

The question I reference was:
How do we know that someone has a closed mind and how is it that the person who is telling other, does not has a closed mind himself ?
In my own words I said quote: Scripture says Christ gives each person according to the measure of HIS will and love.

(so HIS = Christ who reveals what He wants to each person He wants)


Continue my words: So what is revealed to one may not be revealed to another.

(not everyone will come to the same answer because He makes the decision by HIS knowledge in what their heart and mind can hold, And what they can handle, and what they are willing to handle) He knows each of well.

Continue my words: Each are to serve according to what they hear in Christ = RIGHTEOUSNESS ...

( what Christ has given them of righteousness to handle they then serve as a good servant of God, handing it out to others.)

Continue my words:And we are to watch carefully to the end of every word.

(we that hear their message must listen to every word to compare it with what Christ has written or revealed to us)

Continue my words: This makes it pretty individual as chosen by God.

( because Christ has the power in every way to make the difference in how we live on an individual basis. Whether we reap mercy or a lesson in obedience)


Continue my word:The vine is Christ and the only way is Christ. HIS sheep hear HIS voice. Christ walked by every letter of HIS Father's will. And we NOW walk as HE walked and in HIM. . .

(`Christ is the answer to our questionsin faith, and the example to follow)

The question I reference was:
In my own words I said quote: Scripture says Christ gives each person according to the measure of HIS will and love.

(so HIS = Christ who reveals what He wants to each person He wants)


Continue my words: So what is revealed to one may not be revealed to another.

(not everyone will come to the same answer because He makes the decision by HIS knowledge in what their heart and mind can hold, And what they can handle, and what they are willing to handle) He knows each of well.

Continue my words: Each are to serve according to what they hear in Christ = RIGHTEOUSNESS ...

( what Christ has given them of righteousness to handle they then serve as a good servant of God, handing it out to others.)

Continue my words:And we are to watch carefully to the end of every word.

(we that hear their message must listen to every word to compare it with what Christ has written or revealed to us)

Continue my words: This makes it pretty individual as chosen by God.

( because Christ has the power in every way to make the difference in how we live on an individual basis. Whether we reap mercy or a lesson in obedience)


Continue my word:The vine is Christ and the only way is Christ. HIS sheep hear HIS voice. Christ walked by every letter of HIS Father's will. And we NOW walk as HE walked and in HIM. . .

(`Christ is the answer to our questionsin faith, and the example to follow)

I agree with you on most of the things that you said. Where the problem comes in for me is that christ is the only way to the creator. I believe there is only one true God, he is the almoghty God. Jesus christ came to this earth to teach and show us how we should live. How we should treat our fellow man. I don't think he is God, or the son of God as the bible has it. He's not my saviour, I am my own saviour and God lives within everyone as we have been created in his image.
I believe Human beings can readily access God's light without going through jesus as the church wants you to believe. Look I love jesus, but I simply see him as a great prophet and the greatest human example of spiritual enlightenment.

God lives within everyone as we have been created in his image.


So in some manner of speaking you believe the HOLY SPIRIT is God within you? (or) define image of God?

And the reason I would like to understand is why you have not made the plural relationship in what is written?

The image of God to me is the spirit of life. And the scripture reference in Genesis 1:26 reads God to say, let us (plural) create man in our (plural) image and after our (plural) likeness.
I find the plural reference to show both God the Father, and Christ who were both Spirit in completeness.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So in some manner of speaking you believe the HOLY SPIRIT is God within you? (or) define image of God?

And the reason I would like to understand is why you have not made the plural relationship in what is written?

The image of God to me is the spirit of life. And the scripture reference in Genesis 1:26 reads God to say, let us (plural) create man in our (plural) image and after our (plural) likeness.
I find the plural reference to show both God the Father, and Christ who were both Spirit in completeness.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Well I believe in God the father, and yes I believe he lives in all of us. Now do I think the element of God that lives in us is a spirit? Well I am not sure because I believe the very core of our being "the soul" is our direct connection to God. You may call it a spirit, but I refer to it as the soul.

Now God the son as the bible has given jesus this title. Well he is the son of god, just like we are all children of God. If we where more jesus like we would be walking in the light of God. Jesus came to set an example to teach us how to live and to reunite jews and gentiles. But my beliefs do not allow me to see jesus as my saviour or the gatekeeper to connecting with the one and only creator.

Well i believe in God the father, and yes i believe he lives in all of us. now do i think the element of God that lives in us is a spirit? Well i am not sure because i believe the very core of our being "the soul" is our direct connection to God. You may call it a spirit, but i refer to it as the soul.

Now God the son as the bible has given jesus this title. Well he is the son of god, just like we are all children of God. If we where more jesus like we would be walking in the light of God. Jesus came to set an example to teach us how to live and to reunite jews and gentiles. But my beliefs do not allow me to see jesus as my saviour or the gatekeeper to connecting with the one and only creator.

And I believe all souls belong to God, and that soul is placed within the flesh of man to walk on earth. Yet we know that the flesh body was curse in sin by one man. AND I believe we were set free from that curse by Christ Jesus, who paid the price in HIS blood. The one man greater and anointed by the Father to be the Saviour. Christ is the divine simplicity (faith) which we don't want to be beguiled from hearing.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Our Father sent Jesus, as HIS begotten Son, who was from the beginning with God, and who was the Word of God made flesh to walk on earth, with the HOLY SPIRIT who was the identity in the likeness of the (plural) our image = Father, Son and HOLY SPIRIT.

Yes to walk in Christ is to walk in the light of God.

But I don't see that you answered the question of who the plural images were or the indentity in likeness to both? Who was God talk with in Genesis 1:26? Who was the likeness of both indentities? Have you asked in prayer to be granted HIS Truth?

Triund,
THAT is a very good question.
It may be hard to answer in some cases.
How many people really do have an always open mind?
Fred

And I believe all souls belong to God, and that soul is placed within the flesh of man to walk on earth. Yet we know that the flesh body was curse in sin by one man. AND I believe we were set free from that curse by Christ Jesus, who paid the price in HIS blood. The one man greater and anointed by the Father to be the Saviour. Christ is the divine simplicity (faith) which we don't want to be beguiled from hearing.

Jesus christ is a model human being, that we all aspire to be, but fall so short of the glory, but he's not my saviour.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Disagree once again the i see the "SIN" as the bible states that eve committed was more metaphorical than the physical act. Eating the forbidden fruit was really man's fall from grace and not the origination of sin and their deviation from the tree of life to the tree of knowledge.

Our Father sent Jesus, as HIS begotten Son, who was from the beginning with God, and who was the Word of God made flesh to walk on earth, with the HOLY SPIRIT who was the identity in the likeness of the (plural) our image = Father, Son and HOLY SPIRIT.

Disagree again I don't think jesus is the son of God as the bible makes him out to be, i see jesus as a great prophet, like mohammed is to islam.

Yes to walk in Christ is to walk in the light of God.

Diasgree you do not need christ to walk or communicate with God, God is within all of us and IT is up to us to find him and build a relationship with him. These no free lunch on this earth we need to work on it, and not take the easy way out by saying " ohhh i beleive in jesus so im walking with god". Words are so cheap its the actual actions of commuting ones mind, body and soul to discover God within>



But I don't see that you answered the question of who the plural images were or the indentity in likeness to both? Who was God talk with in Genesis 1:26? Who was the likeness of both indentities? Have you asked in prayer to be granted HIS Truth?

What do you define as prayer is it the our father, hail mary etc.?

Me definition of prayer and yours may differ to a great degree. Prayer to me is meditation and connecting with the soul within me, speaking to the almighty god from the soul within, giving him my mind body and soul and not mechanically ritualistic recital of words (i.e our father, hail mary). Granted his truth? What do you mean buy that, what truth?

Triund,
THAT is a very good question.
It may be hard to answer in some cases.
How many people really do have an always open mind?
Fred

I will definitely say that I am not 100% open minded some things people say I dismiss it as nonsense, or I agree to disagree with them. Knowing that not everyone will see things my way or share my beliefs. I don't think any human being has developed the self conditioning that is need to be 100% unbias and open to all ideas. There's only a few people that I believe has ever reached the point of enlightenment where they can be unbias and I would say that was jesus christ, mohammed and some of the great saints of our time.

Us everyday folks are nowhere near, this level of elevation:p

What many people miss when they think about Jesus Christ is the true CORE of His teaching.

It was not about a code of ethics.

The core of Jesus' teaching was Himself. It is impossible to accept His teachings while rejecting Him.

It is also impossible to claim Jesus as saviour without also accepting Him as your Lord. It's a package deal.

What many people miss when they think about Jesus Christ is the true CORE of His teaching.

It was not about a code of ethics.

The core of Jesus' teaching was Himself. It is impossible to accept His teachings while rejecting Him.

It is also impossible to claim Jesus as saviour without also accepting Him as your Lord. It's a package deal.
Definitely not a package deal in my book:)

What many people miss when they think about Jesus Christ is the true CORE of His teaching.

It was not about a code of ethics.

The core of Jesus' teaching was Himself. It is impossible to accept His teachings while rejecting Him.

It is also impossible to claim Jesus as saviour without also accepting Him as your Lord. It's a package deal.

I tried to give you a greenie but I couldn't since I recently gave you one. What you had to say was biblically correct and did NOT deserve a REDDIE. This is a Christian board if you are going to give REDDIES, please back it up with the BIBLE. It is not only the POLITE thing to do, it is part of the RULES.:mad:

galveston,
I agree with you.
It IS a package deal.
Fred

Dare81,
I agree with what galveston said.
It is not like you said about Newton.
Jesus is divine, Newton was a mere human mortal.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Dare81,
I agree with what galveston said.
It is not like you said about Newton.
Jesus is divine, Newton was a mere human mortal.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I agree that newton was a mortal a scientific genius. But jesusa was also a mortal, who elevated to the highest level of "SPITITUAL GENIUS":)

450donn disagrees: But the reputation system does have rules, and if you choose not to follow them then please refrain from posting

What i wrote was not factually incorrect, and does not deserve a reddie, but that is okay i know you are mad because i challange your beliefs and the worst you can do to me is give me a redie, that kind of attitue is very common againts you religious types

Dare you are so correct. I also take a lot of heat from expressing my views, which are so different from many o the posters on this board, but your well within your rights to post your opinion and views on the subject. Im with you all the way:D

What do you define as prayer is it the our father, hail mary etc.?

Me definition of prayer and yours may differ to a great degree. Prayer to me is meditation and connecting with the soul within me, speaking to the almighty god from the soul within, giving him my mind body and soul and not mechanically ritualistic recital of words (i.e our father, hail mary). Granted his truth? What do you mean buy that, what truth?

First let me say, I asked about praying because scripture has told us to do so. And it was (Mark 14:38 Matthew 26:14) that warns us of the need in prayer.

As for what I define as prayer, I will say prayer is in the same manner as Christ taught us. My prayer is to the Father with the spirit. ( 1 Cr 14:15)

And I would say no one needs to speak their prayer in oral words, or has to in speaking with God. In a gathering of prayer that is what is usually done. When alone privately, within the heart soul, and mind of conviction in love, I then pray through the spirit to God.

When I ask you concerning truth, it is in knoweldge to what God wants to reveal to you. For to me God is the Spirit of Truth.. You mention it was your religion that does not permit Christ as your Saviour.

I view religion as being taken in many different directions, and directed by man.

And not all churches are the house of God in body being Christ, when each person as members, walk in faith with Christ, and Christ is the one corner stone by all that He fulfilled in HIS Father's will.

Now again I ask .. and have not yet seen that you answered the question of who the plural images were or the indentity in likeness to both? Who was God talk with in Genesis 1:26? Who was the likeness of both indentities?

What he wrote was factually incorrect, Muslims believe in him and follow his teaching without accepting him as the son of God.Just because this is a christian board does not mean everything has to be backed up by the bible. Read the rules

This is a Christianity Board. It is based on faith and our ONLY authority is the Bible therefore It IS NOT factually incorrect. The Bible backs up his statement. If you want to give your opinion, we welcome it but to give reputation because your OPINION or beliefs differ is RUDE and NOT playing by the rules of this sight. I don't agree with the Muslims, but I'm not on THAT board giving reddies to everyone that says something that I disagree with because I don't like the Quran and I believe the Bible. NOw, having said that I have given reddies on the Christain board if what someone says it biblically wrong and I can give scrpitrue to back it up.

Yes the Christian board or the Muslim board or the Jewish board everything is based on the persons individual faith, understanding, belief or opinion and you really can't give reddies unless it is totally off base and incorrect.

Lets call the Old Testament. The law of Moses, and call the New Testament. The new covenant. In the old, the laws were strict and hard to live by, yes? I don't care who you are NO ONE can live by the Bible NO ONE, not even Moses himself was able to live by these rules. As you read in the Bible he was forbidden to set foot in the promise land, by GOD himself. Now our country has been founded by these standards guess what, we failed, yep even christians, We All Fall Short Of The Glory Of God! Sound familiar. Knowing This our Lord Jesus came back and redeemed us all, hence the New Testament. Read the Gospels, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John to help you understand the New Testament. Bottom line my friend Don't follow religion. Follow the way the truth and the light, JESUS!!

First let me say, I asked about praying because scripture has told us to do so. And it was (Mark 14:38 Matthew 26:14) that warns us of the need in prayer.

As for what I define as prayer, I will say prayer is in the same manner as Christ taught us. My prayer is to the Father with the spirit. ( 1 Cr 14:15)

And I would say no one needs to speak their prayer in oral words, or has to in speaking with God. In a gathering of prayer that is what is usually done. When alone privately, within the heart soul, and mind of conviction in love, I then pray through the spirit to God.

When I ask you concerning truth, it is in knoweldge to what God wants to reveal to you. For to me God is the Spirit of Truth.. You mention it was your religion that does not permit Christ as your Saviour.

I dont belong to ANY RELIGION, i have a spiritual beleif that I adhear to you their is a big difference between SPRITUALITY AND RELIGION
I view religion as being taken in many different directions, and directed by man.

I agree and thats where the problem because all man including the pope himself fall short of the glory of God.

And not all churches are the house of God in body being Christ, when each person as members, walk in faith with Christ, and Christ is the one corner stone by all that He fulfilled in HIS Father's will.

Now again I ask .. and have not yet seen that you answered the question of who the plural images were or the indentity in likeness to both? Who was God talk with in Genesis 1:26? Who was the likeness of both indentities?

I dont understand what you are asking? Try breaking it down some more please.

Lets call the Old Testament. The law of Moses, and call the New Testament. The new covenant. In the old, the laws were strict and hard to live by, yes? I don't care who you are NO ONE can live by the Bible NO ONE, not even Moses himself was able to live by these rules. as you read in the Bible he was forbidden to set foot in the promise land, by GOD himself. Now our country has been founded by these standards guess what, we failed, yep even christians, We All Fall Short Of The Glory Of God! Sound familiar. Knowing This our Lord Jesus came back and redeemed us all, hence the New Testament. Read the Gospels, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John to help you understand the New Testament. Bottom line my friend Don't follow religion. Follow the way the truth and the light, JESUS!!!!!

JEZZY I agree with you to an extent. Look jesus came to SHOW US THE WAY WE SHOULD live, no man ever wii come close to the elevation of spirituality that jesus had, he came to school the sheep. But jesus is not the saviour of mankind we are all our own saviour. Look there's no free lunch people you want to get close to the almighty God, you got to work on yourself from the core of your being, meaning from the soul within and stop saying I believe in jesus so I am saved. Get a reality check. Jeuss came to give us the theory it's up to us to apply the praxis.:)

JEZZY i agree with you to an extent. Look jesus came to SHOW US THE WAY WE SHOULD live, no man ever wii come close to the elevation of spirituality that jesus had, he came to school the sheep. But jesus is not the saviour of mankind we are all our own saviour. Look there's no free lunch people you want to get close to the almighty God, you got to work on yourself from the core of your being, meaning from the soul within and stop saying i beleive in jesus so i am saved. Get a reality check. Jeuss came to give us the theory it's up to us to apply the praxis.:)
Not only did Jesus show us how to live, but also He Himself bought us that free lunch. He even told us that we don't have to make our own or buy it from somewhere. His is FREE!

Not only did Jesus show us how to live, but also He Himself bought us that free lunch. He even told us that we don't have to make our own or buy it from somewhere. His is FREE!!

Wonder you are right we share the same views except we just interrupt it differently.

I see it as jesus was the ultimate role model, he was like the teacher and I am the student, it's through his life that set the example, that man should live by, but we have to work on ourselves to come close to his level of spiritual elevation.

I guess you believe that he is the saviour and through him and him only will you be able to receive the glory of god?


As far as I see we have the same beliefs but different interpretations!

i guess you believe that he is the saviour and through him and him only will you be able to receive the glory of god?
I believe He was more than just a good man. I believe His life and death made me right with God again. I believe we limit God and make Him too small when we say only "good Christians" will enjoy the afterlife.

WG...

I believe all christians( the good, bad and ugly) will be saved and enjoy heaven. I base my beliefs on the BIBLE. I don't make God small... I also don't ADD to his Word to fix the things that I do not understand.

This is a Christianity Board. It is based on faith and our ONLY authority is the Bible.

NOw, having said that I have given reddies on the Christain board if what someone says it biblically wrong and i can give scrpitrue to back it up.

ClassyT - Please clarify what you're saying here.

I understand this board to be on the topic Christianity. I further understand that anyone can post on the topic - regardless of their beliefs.

You seem to be saying the board is based on faith and the only authority is the Bible (for this Board). Does that mean (in your opinion) that only Christians are permitted to post here?

I have reviewed the posting rules and can find nothing that would support your position (if I've stated your position correctly - if not, please clarify your position).

Reddies for Biblically incorrect posts (in your opinion) seem to be against the site principles as I understand them.

If a moderator is monitoring this, I would appreciate a clear explanation as to whether this is restricted to Christians. Thank you.

WG...

I believe all christians( the good, bad and ugly) will be saved and enjoy heaven. I base my beliefs on the BIBLE. I don't make God small...I also don't ADD to his Word to fix the things that i do not understand.

This is what I don't understand are you saying because you are a christian and ONLY because you are a christian you will enjoy the afterlife/heaven?

this is what i dont understand are you saying because you are a christian and ONLY because you are a christian you will enjoy the afterlife/heaven?

Well, yes in a manner of speaking. You have made it quite clear in more than one of your posts that you think Jesus was a good man and Not the son of God. You have made quite clear that your belief is that the Bible is a nice book, but that you do not want to take the time to understand it's teachings. You have made it quite clear that your beliefs are than man can do it on his own without God. So since you do not believe in God/Jesus/ Holy spirit as the trinity from our book, the Bible that you will likely not make it to heaven. I am not making a judgment here, Rather you have set yourself up for judgment because of your unbelief. This is a whole package deal. You want the rewards, you have to accept the whole enchilada to get it.

I am not making a judgment here, Rather you have set yourself up for judgment because of your unbelief.

You are NOT making a judgment here? You certainly are. Your judgment is based on this individual not believing the same way you do. It couldn't be more clear. When you judge his "unbelief", it is YOU judging. You can quote the Bible all you want, but remember, bible-quoting is a two-way street.

I believe He was more than just a good man. I believe His life and death made me right with God again. I believe we limit God and make Him too small when we say only "good Christians" will enjoy the afterlife.

This is where we differ. I believe that being right with God is up to me, not Jesus. He did not have to die on the cross for me to get right with God. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, is something I believe in across the board. To just say that you believe Christ is your Savior doesn't cut it. You have to find your own individual path to Him.

Well, yes in a manner of speaking. You have made it quite clear in more than one of your posts that you think Jesus was a good man and Not the son of God. You have made quite clear that your belief is that the Bible is a nice book, but that you do not want to take the time to understand it's teachings. You have made it quite clear that your beliefs are than man can do it on his own without God. So since you do not believe in God/Jesus/ Holy spirit as the trinity from our book, the Bible that you will likely not make it to heaven. I am not making a judgment here, Rather you have set yourself up for judgment because of your unbelief. This is a whole package deal. You want the rewards, you have to accept the whole enchilada to get it.

And you will make it to heaven, with your attitude I will be surprised if you end up anywhere

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(KJV)

If Christians are not allowed to post Bible in support of what we believe, then to what shall we appeal, to our own wisdom?


Prov 14:12
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
(KJV)

Repeated here, 2 chapters later.

Prov 16:25
25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
(KJV)


Isa 8:19-20
19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? For the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
(KJV)

As you can see, the practice of seeking guidance from anywhere other than God is prohibited by the Bible. I could give more references, but these should be enough.

As believer in Jesus Christ I am obligated to this.

You have made quite clear that your belief is that the Bible is a nice book, ar that your beliefs are than man can do it on his own without God.


She never said without God, she said without believing that Jesus was "our savior".


So but that you do not want to take the time to understand it's teachings.


She never said this either. This is just you being a condescending christian.


You have made it quite clesince you do not believe in God/Jesus/ Holy spirit as the trinity from our book, the Bible that you will likely not make it to heaven.


Don't know where you got this:confused:



I am not making a judgment here,

You are making the judgment that your path to God is the only path just because you read it in a book. FYI, there are many different books, all of which profess to be THE book.



Rather you have set yourself up for judgment because of your unbelief. This is a whole package deal. You want the rewards, you have to accept the whole enchilada to get it.
[/QUOTE]
Says you and your book.:rolleyes:

ClassyT - Please clarify what you're saying here.

I understand this board to be on the topic Christianity. I further understand that anyone can post on the topic - regardless of their beliefs.

You seem to be saying the board is based on faith and the only authority is the Bible (for this Board). Does that mean (in your opinion) that only Christians are permitted to post here?

I have reviewed the posting rules and can find nothing that would support your position (if I've stated your position correctly - if not, please clarify your position).

Reddies for Biblically incorrect posts (in your opinion) seem to be against the site principles as I understand them.

If a moderator is monitoring this, I would appreciate a clear explanation as to whether this is restricted to Christians. Thank you.


No.. I am NOT saying you can't post here. You can disagree with anything anyone puts up but if it isn't wrong according to the Bible.. which is where Christianity all comes from anyway.. I think it is rude to give negative reputation. Look, I am not making some big deal out of it. And I am voicing my opinion. I WANT other faiths to post here.. I just don't think you should give reddies when the person says something that you don't LIKE. Back it up with something from the Bible if you think it is wrong. I think that is fair. I'm not the amhd police and I wouldn't have nor have I ever reported anyone.

this is what i dont understand are you saying because you are a christian and ONLY because you are a christian you will enjoy the afterlife/heaven?

Ligterrr...

NO. I didn't say it.. I'm saying that is what the Bible says. I'm not judging one single person and I would tell NO ONE they weren't going to heaven. The ONLY thing that I can do is point someone in the right direction according to the Bible.

If Christians are not allowed to post Bible in support of what we believe, then to what shall we appeal, to our own wisdom?

You can post supporting scripture all you want, but you must realize that much of it is in vain because many do not take the bible to be the final word of God.



Prov 14:12
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
(KJV)

Repeated here, 2 chapters later.

Prov 16:25
25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
(KJV)

The scripture quoted above is "scare tactics". My God does not sink to that level.



As you can see, the practice of seeking guidance from anywhere other than God is prohibited by the Bible. I could give more references, but these should be enough.

I do seek guidance from God, directly from God. It IS possible to do this and by-pass the scripture.


As believer in Jesus Christ I am obligated to this.

[/QUOTE]That is certainly your prerogative.

Ligterrr...

NO. I didn't say it.. I'm saying that is what the Bible says. I'm not judging one single person and I would tell NO ONE they weren't going to heaven. The ONLY thing that I can do is point someone in the right direction according to the Bible.

classy thank you for being open minded, you know I was a "christian" @ some point and I had to denounce that faith, because it got me NOWHERE in my walk with God. Look classy this is the bottom line we all have God in us and its not jesus that introduces us to God we got to do it on our own. I believe its through the mimicking of Jesus actions that we can get to see the way, the truth and the light. But its not jesus the man that's the gatekeeper to God.

Look @ it this way for example, you go to university learn all the theory of a profession. Then you have a community placement where you apply what is learnt so the praxis.


To me and this is only my opinion:

Jesus = theory
praxis= us putting what he taught into action

Our only saviour is us and our actions and commitment to get closer to the light of God, on our own, buy using the tools that jesus taught:).

classy thank you for being open minded, you know i was a "christian" @ some point and I had to denounce that faith, because it got me NOWHERE in my walk with God. Look classy this is the bottom line we all have God in us and its not jesus that introduces us to God we got to do it on our own. I believe its through the mimicking of Jesus actions that we can get to see the way, the truth and the light. But its not jesus the man thats the gatekeeper to God.

Look @ it this way for example, you go to university learn all the theory of a profession. then you have a community placement where you apply what is learnt so the praxis.


To me and this is only my opinion:

Jesus = theory
praxis= us putting what he taught into action

Our only saviour is us and our actions and commitment to get closer to the light of God, on our own, buy using the tools that jesus taught:).

Light,

I know you think that Jesus isn't the only savior. Man, all I know for sure is if I am my only savior I'm in such big doo doo because I KNOW me. I don't know you seem young, I'm guessing 20's. I'm not... I'm 47. I have lots of life experience. I have done so many things in my life that shocked the daylights out of me... WHAT? Me classy do THAT? YEP and THEN some. The bible says that God is HOLY and I he can't stand for sin and know that I know I am sinful. I DO need a savior and I can't save me.

Lighterr, On post 105 you have quoted me from post 101. However you have confusingly put your reply in orange as quoted by me..

The following is how it should appear, and I would like to go forward in discussion, if you would care to answer.




You mention it was your religion that does not permit Christ as your Saviour.


I dont belong to ANY RELIGION, i have a spiritual beleif that I adhear to you their is a big difference between SPRITUALITY AND RELIGION

Discussion continued: The belief of Kabbalah in what I have knowledge in understand, is an example of spiritual divine simplicity. The belief is a following by people who choose to believe of God as being without parts.
So I do realize the following of belief you have chosen.



I view religion as being taken in many different directions, and directed by man.


I agree and thats where the problem because all man including the pope himself fall short of the glory of God.

Continued discusssion:This tends to discernment in what you feel the Catholic Christian does in the glory of God. And I believe we have a right to discern between right and wrong. Many people follow their own belief, and many different Christain following are out there for choice.

The Bible as in scripture is a more direct path in what I follow.. as a child of God answering the calling of God, to follow the Father's will in confession of Christ as the begotten Son of God.




Now again I ask .. and have not yet seen that you answered the question of who the plural images were or the indentity in likeness to both? Who was God talk with in Genesis 1:26? Who was the likeness of both indentities?


I dont understand what you are asking? Try breaking it down some more please.

Broken down, I felt the Bible was included in your belief, and the first book of scripture I had referanced because you spoke of man created in the image of God.

So Genesis 1:26 speaks of the plural image of "Let Us" and "Our " in plural likeness of who man is created.

Clearly I feel this plural image that God is speaking to is Christ, and the plural likeness of both is the Holy Spirit.

Who do you feel us is? And the our likeness is?

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Light,

I know you think that Jesus isn't the only savior. Man, all i know for sure is if I am my only savior i'm in such big doo doo because i KNOW me. I don't know you seem young, im guessing 20's. I'm not...i'm 47. I have lots of life experience. I have done so many things in my life that shocked the daylights out of me.....WHAT? me classy do THAT? YEP and THEN some. The bible says that God is HOLY and i he can't stand for sin and know that I know i am sinful. I DO need a savior and I can't save me.

Cassy I am actually 30 and have not been through as much as you, but what I have is a spiritual knowledge that keeps me going:)

Fyi: I also remember a story in the new testament where jesus was only 12 years old and he was teaching and preaching to people.


Hmmm I don't think age has anything to do with enlightenment and spiritual growth.

You can post supporting scripture all you want, but you must realize that much of it is in vain because many do not take the bible to be the final word of God.



(KJV)

The scripture quoted above is "scare tactics". My God does not sink to that level.


I do seek guidance from God, directly from God. It IS possible to do this and by-pass the scripture.

God light is all about mercy and greatness, the pureness form of Goodness, their for i cannot see such a mighty god stoop to such a level... i agree with cozy



That is certainly your prerogative.[/QUOTE]

indeed

Lighterr, On post 105 you have quoted me from post 101. However you have confusingly put your reply in orange as quoted by me..

The following is how it should appear, and I would like to go forward in discussion, if you would care to answer.






Discussion continued: The belief of Kabbalah in what I have knowledge in understand, is an example of spiritual divine simplicity. The belief is a following by people who choose to believe of God as being without parts.
So I do realize the following of belief you have chosen.






Continued discusssion:This tends to discernment in what you feel the Catholic Christian does in the glory of God. And I believe we have a right to discern between right and wrong. Many people follow their own belief, and many different Christain following are out there for choice.

The Bible as in scripture is a more direct path in what I follow.. as a child of God answering the calling of God, to follow the Father's will in confession of Christ as the begotten Son of God.






Broken down, I felt the Bible was included in your belief, and the first book of scripture I had referanced because you spoke of man created in the image of God.

So Genesis 1:26 speaks of the plural image of "Let Us" and "Our " in plural likeness of who man is created.

Clearly I feel this plural image that God is speaking to is Christ, and the plural likeness of both is the Holy Spirit.

Who do you feel us is? And the our likeness is?

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

ok i think i understand your question now. This is how i see it, God made us in his image,and gave us power over everything on this earth. God created us to be like him we are all God's in our own right. When adam fell from the glory of God and began to take his information from the tree of knowledge and not the tree of life, we lost focus and the ability to tap into God's light, that direct access to god was now not readily available. That is why JESUS came to earth to show us the way to god, the de-vine creator. Jesus is no one saviour in this life we got to use his ways to get to God.

we are all God's in our own right.
God created us as His creatures, not as His equals.

When adam fell from the glory of God and began to take his information from the tree of knowledge and not the tree of life
Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Life to gain immortality, not for information about anything. That's why God kicked them out of the Garden, so they wouldn't keep eating from the Tree of Life and be immortal in their sin.

Continued discusssion:This tends to discernment in what you feel the Catholic Christian does in the glory of God. And I believe we have a right to discern between right and wrong. Many people follow their own belief, and many different Christain following are out there for choice.

SndBay:

The Scriptures, on the whole, require discipline in our faith. That is to say, we are servants of God. Servants normally don’t tell the master how the servant wishes to believe in the rule of the house. How then does one reason men have the latitude to ‘believe as he wishes’? In the same vein, if there is one Truth, how then can we pervert that truth to hold whatever one desires? Is there a Protestant Truth, a Catholic Truth, or an Evangelical Truth?

JoeT

I thank everyone for their time and hard work on this thread. As with all good things it has a time to come to the end.

Thread Closed