Job 7:1-4, 6-7

The Book of Job is one of the most popular stories in world literature.

It deals with the problem of human suffering of the just person. Why? Job knows he is righteous, but in the course of the story, as he argues with three friends who are convinced he is being punished for his sins, Job overdoes his own righteousness. He speaks to God directly, demanding an explanation for the ill-treatment he has received.

God rebukes Job for thinking that his righteous life has somehow “earned” him happiness. Job is humbled as he learns that our sufferings are not the result of our sins. Rather, that we suffer so that the works of God may be shown forth in us. Suffering is still a mystery, but our trust in God's goodness and obedient acceptance of His reasons will bring us to joyful salvation in God's heaven. In the end, health and prosperity are restored a hundredfold to Job.

His powerful story has comforted thousands upon thousands of people who have lost everything, but have held tenaciously to their faith in a loving God.

In our own lives, when we feel that God has acted cruelly or unjustly, then we need to look at Christ on the cross. Was it fair for Jesus, whose only crime was loving us, to be killed on a cross after severe humiliation and torture? Was it fair for Mary to suffer the terrible pain that only mothers can know and appreciate?

Like Job, may we never feel that God has abandoned us when He allows us to suffer. Rather, may we have faith enough in the wisdom of Providence that has allowed us to share in the mysterious plan of Jesus' saving Passion that goes on through the centuries. It all ends in Resurrection.

:confused:Do you believe that you suffer because God allows it to happen?:confused:
:confused:Or for some other reason?:confused:
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

Fred,
Please give the scripture reference for your comment:
"God rebukes Job for thinking that his righteous life has somehow “earned” him happiness."
I see no where in Job where god rebukes Job. In fact it is Satan who pesters God to let him test Job. Remember, God has no authority here on earth unless we give it to him of our own free will..

Don
I already gave it in the quesrion.
Here it is again
Job 7:1-4, 6-7

Suffering produces character, patience, obedience and righteousness.

Acts 9:16
And I will show him how much he must suffer for my name's sake.”

Romans 8:18
[ The Future Glory ] Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later

2 Corinthians 1:5
For the more we suffer for Christ, the more God will shower us with his comfort through Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:10
Through suffering, our bodies continue to share in the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also be seen in our bodies.

2 Corinthians 12:10
That's why I take pleasure in my weaknesses, and in the insults, hardships, persecutions, and troubles that I suffer for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

2 Timothy 4:5
But you should keep a clear mind in every situation. Don't be afraid of suffering for the Lord. Work at telling others the Good News, and fully carry out the ministry God has given you.

Hebrews 5:8
Even though Jesus was God's Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered.

1 Peter 4:1
[ Living for God ] So then, since Christ suffered physical pain, you must arm yourselves with the same attitude he had, and be ready to suffer, too. For if you have suffered physically for Christ, you have finished with sin.

1 peter 4
12 Dear friends, don't be surprised at the fiery trials you are going through, as if something strange were happening to you. 13 Instead, be very glad—for these trials make you partners with Christ in his suffering, so that you will have the wonderful joy of seeing his glory when it is revealed to all the world.

savedsinner7,
Yes that is right but why do YOU suffer?
Or do you suffer?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The reasons I suffer are listed in the verses I posted. I believe that what is said in God's Word applies personally to me. The suffering I have endured has strengthened my faith, given me a testimony to share and made me stronger in Who He Is. The things that I suffer drive me to my knees in prayer, seeking the face of God, seeking His hand, seeking His will. The suffering builds patience, endurance and makes me more like who He created me to be. The suffering refines me and drives out that which will be burned up to leave that which is pure. The suffering I have endured leads me to recognize the hand of God in my life and to identify with Jesus my LORD.

savedsinner7,
Thank you very much for that explanation.
You made it very clear.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

arcura & 450donn -

First, arcura - I think your analysis of suffering in Job is underappreciated. Quite frankly, there are philosophies that permeate Christianity (not all of it) which deny that human suffering is for any other reason but for sin. But as you pointed out, human suffering is something in the hands of a good and loving God, in which he uses to grown one's faith and character. If we think that when we are suffering it is because of sin, we have wrongly interpreted God's character, I think. For if God as a matter of principle uses suffering to punish people for sin, all of us should be suffering because we are all sinners.

Arcura, I'm not quite sure I see the rebuke you are referencing coming from Job Chapter 7... I do see it in Ch 38, though. Can you give some more clarity about how you think Ch 7 is a rebuke from God?

450donn - God does rebuke Job in Ch 38. The nature of the rebuke stems from Job's insistence that God owed him an explanation for why we were suffering. Ultimately, Job needed to come to the place where he understood that God is our creator and he does not need our approval or input for how he chooses to run this world, including us. But it is a loving rebuke from a creator towards his creation... Job sees and understands it as a rebuke because in Chapter 42 he responds in the following manner:

Then Job answered the Lord and said:

“I know that you can do all things,
And that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
'Hear, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.'
I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees you;
Therefore I despise myself,
And repent in dust and ashes.”

Again, Job is repenting of his demand for God's explanation. God never gives him an answer but instead asks him questions to drive home the point that when God was creating the universe, he never stopped to consult with Job about whether he was doing it right or not... Job's life and ours is another example of how God reigns over his creation and how he can choose to do with us whatever he desires.

The great failure of the Bible is that it fails to answer the most important of our questions... "Why People Suffer". The good as well as the bad suffer terribly in life. EVERYONE SUFFERS.

The Book of Job states there are two reasons for human suffering:


A. Suffering is a *test* and you will be rewarded later for passing the test.
B. Suffering is beyond comprehension.

Biblical Prophets say that suffering is a punishment for sinning. Then, why do good people suffer?

Christianity does not answer the reality that everyone suffers in life, the good and the bad and all between. We humans have that in common. :)

I don't suffer. :)

NK, Wait until people you love start dying. :)

Ok, but I most likely won't be hanging around a website in those times.

Total non sequitur. Lol

Everyone suffers during their lives. :)

A close friend of mine has a dog that is old and may have a spleen tumor. We were talking about the suffering that older dogs sometimes go through. While under some circumstances it is merciful to put them down, I commented that dogs are often people in realizing that joy is deeper than comfort. They can be happy even when they are suffering. If they are with their loved ones, and know they are loved, petted and told they are good, they don't care if they are in pain. No matter how decrepit, they will faithfully, and joyfully hobble along after us to their last breaths. Even on their deathbeds they wag with every ounce of fading strength whenever we come near.

Is the purpose of life to be free from suffering? Is it to be comfortable? Is it to feel pleasure? If we can develop a deeper sense of self, of our connection to all being, then our individual pains and pleasures will never really separate us from the ever-present Spirit. So when God asks us, "Were you there when I laid the foundations of the world?" We can answer, "Hell, yes! And it was cool!"

jakester,
You are right. I should have also mentioned chapter 38
Thanks much.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Alder.
Thanks much for that.
It is a great post and thought provoking.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The great failure of the Bible is that it fails to answer the most important of our questions..."Why People Suffer". The good as well as the bad suffer terribly in life. EVERYONE SUFFERS.

The Book of Job states there are two reasons for human suffering:


A. Suffering is a *test* and you will be rewarded later for passing the test.
B. Suffering is beyond comprehension.

Biblical Prophets say that suffering is a punishment for sinning. Then, why do good people suffer?

Christianity does not answer the reality that everyone suffers in life, the good and the bad and all inbetween. We humans have that in common. :)

Choux - it seems that you are presenting a contradiction of thoughts because you say "the bible fails to answer the most important of our questions" and yet you provide reason A and B for why people suffer, according to your interpretation of Job.

Is your point of contention that though the bible offers two reasons—as you pointed out—for why people suffer, that they are not adequate answers to the question of "why do people suffer?"

I wanted to be sure I understood what you are saying.

Dear friend,
We must believe GOD is perfect. Therefore, Almighty and Omnipresent.
Hinduists claim that “Not even a blade of grass will move without divine Will”
And the Taoists say: God's hand has touched even every small blade of grass which grows in the field... All creatures we see contain God's deep heart and tell the story of God's deep love.
For GOD there cannot be yesterday, today or tomorrow. Time and space must be meaningless for GOD.
Consequently, we must conclude that GOD knows whatever has happened, happens and will happen to each of us here in our planet and in the entire Universe he has created, until the end of it, if there is an end for the Universe as we know it.
A different thing altogether, I believe, is to consider that we suffer because GOD allows it to happen.
GOD created us and at the same time GOD set up the Laws that control and govern both our Earth and the Universe.
Earthquakes, tornados or tsunamis are natural consequences of these Laws. And mankind is also submitted to the very same Laws and their results.
We get diseases, plagues and pandemics because there exist microorganisms, germs, bacteria and viruses causing them.
And people die because we all have to, sooner or later. I honestly do not think that GOD has anything to do with it.
We are welcome, hoever, to pray GOD to help us enduring our sufferings and accept whatever distress we may run into with resignation, as Job did, while asking GOD to provide us with enough strength to overcome our pain.:):)

J, The Bible offers more than two reasons people sufffer... I just mentioned the two reasons given for human suffering in the Book of Job... also, I threw in the reason some prophets give... God's punishment for sin... THREE different reasons, there are more reasons given in the Bible. But, why do good people suffer? GodAlmighty is all powerful and all loving(?? ) is inconsistent with the reality of millions of good people suffering.

There is no good reason given for why people suffer, just *speculations* for the misery humans go through in life.

Regards, :)

J, The Bible offers more than two reasons why people sufffer....I just mentioned the two reasons given for human suffering in the Book of Job.....also, I threw in the reason some prophets give....God's punishment for sin...THREE different reasons, there are more reasons given in the Bible. But, why do good people suffer? GodAlmighty is all powerful and all loving(???) is inconsistent with the reality of millions of good people suffering.

There is no good reason given for why people suffer, just *speculations* for the misery humans go through in life.

Regards, :)


And yet, I think another perhaps more “philosophical” reason why people suffer is precisely because GOD loves us…
In Spanish we have a saying that goes “Who loves you well will make you cry” meaning that sometimes we may have to give a no for an answer to someone we love because we DO know it will be best for him/her.
As GOD loves us GOD must want us to join HIM in Paradise! God, through our suffering may be simply trying us and helping us, without our realizing it, to finally reach HIM.
But as you rightly say, this is sheer “speculation”. The real answer will have to await a little…

G, You are just making this up as you go along. :)

*The Bible* gives reasons for suffering, I can think of five reasons including what I stated above, and misery and suffering are horrible states of mind to endure. Many suffer a whole life like autistic people for example, as I said, there is no good answer in Christianity to human suffering in all its manifestations. :)

gromitt82,
I agree with you 100% on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Job 7:1-4, 6-7

The Book of Job is one of the most popular stories in world literature.

It deals with the problem of human suffering of the just person. Why? Job knows he is righteous, but in the course of the story, as he argues with three friends who are convinced he is being punished for his sins, Job overdoes his own righteousness. He speaks to God directly, demanding an explanation for the ill-treatment he has received.

God rebukes Job for thinking that his righteous life has somehow “earned” him happiness. Job is humbled as he learns that our sufferings are not the result of our sins. Rather, that we suffer so that the works of God may be shown forth in us. Suffering is still a mystery, but our trust in God's goodness and obedient acceptance of His reasons will bring us to joyful salvation in God's heaven. In the end, health and prosperity are restored a hundredfold to Job.

His powerful story has comforted thousands upon thousands of people who have lost everything, but have held tenaciously to their faith in a loving God.

In our own lives, when we feel that God has acted cruelly or unjustly, then we need to look at Christ on the cross. Was it fair for Jesus, whose only crime was loving us, to be killed on a cross after severe humiliation and torture? Was it fair for Mary to suffer the terrible pain that only mothers can know and appreciate?

Like Job, may we never feel that God has abandoned us when He allows us to suffer. Rather, may we have faith enough in the wisdom of Providence that has allowed us to share in the mysterious plan of Jesus' saving Passion that goes on through the centuries. It all ends in Resurrection.

Do you believe that you suffer because God allows it to happen?
Or for some other reason?
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred


Yes,

I don't know why the "good" or the "innocent" suffer.

I know that in the times that I have suffered [most of the time it is due to my own bad decisions] there is always a choice:

To TURN FROM God and seek the solutions / or escape in this world; like sex or drugs or alcohol or denial or in materialism or in hedonism,

Or

To humbly TURN TO God, pour out my sorrow, ask for relief and comfort, ask for wisdom, and patiently accept His sovreignty, and that His will be done.

Personally the suffering has always ended, and God has helped me.
I still don't like to suffer, but because of His blessings in previous trials, I know I can TURN TO God - always. :)





G&P

inthebox,
GOOD!!
I'm very happy for you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

G, You are just making this up as you go along. :)

*The Bible* gives reasons for suffering, I can think of five reasons including what I stated above, and misery and suffering are horrible states of mind to endure. Many suffer a whole life like autistic people for example, as I said, there is no good answer in Christianity to human suffering in all its manifestations. :)


Of course I am making what I said as I go along, as you point out. This is why I mention it is a “more philosophical reason”
The point, dear Choux, is that neither you nor I (actually, no one) can say why we have to suffer down here. Autistic people do suffer and those dying of starvation in the world do suffer and the ~9 children dying PER MINUTE, 24 hours per day, 365 days per annum, as a NONSTOP average also suffer.
However, you never mentioned (and most people never do) how much suffering we can trigger in GOD with our behavior.
We would like GOD to take care of each one of us to prevent us from any pain and suffering. But we are not willing to avoid insulting GOD with our constant sins. And do not bother to answer that good Christians do not offend GOD for I will have to retort that there is no such thing as a good Christian. We may not rob or kill or hit our parents, granted. But that does not unfortunately preclude our committing all kind of daily sins that offend and affront GOD, for they actually represent our flagrant noncompliance with the 11 Commandments!
The Bible also says that Sodome and Gomorre were destroyed by the divine fire because the people living there had defied Yahweh through their constant sins. The way our world is going (the entire world) I wonder why GOD does not let one of these big meteorites collide with us to destroy our Earth for good…
Not doing it is already, in my opinion, an evident prove of GOD’s compassion towards us!
I’m sure no Father would stand the constant spitting and spurting from a son that GOD stands from us.

Suffering is a perspective. If we are to believe that we only have this one life, perspective gets skewed. Why do children starve to death?If they continue to experience life after starving to death once or twice, the question is answered. What have you done to be of help?

When we believe that that child is "other" than ourselves, that God is separate from us, then the whole process makes no sense.

We give "suffering" to ourselves, it is pre-sent from a reality we cannot grasp (in our current state) except through faith. If we have faith that everything fits, our "pre-sent moments" are acceptable, no matter how painful they feel.

To me, this feels right. I believe in God, that he gives us free will to suffer all we want, die all we want. We are loved in spite of our exploratory behavior.

Simone, Your "blame the victim" excuse is very dogmatic and childish. (Please don't take my comment personally. It is a comment that many make)

Apparently, you have no conception of all the different kinds of misery and suffering that human beings may go through in their lives. :)

Christianity does not answer the most important theological question, nor does it help human beings deal with terrible suffering they go through. Just five or six philosophical *speculations*... no help in reality. :)

PS The reason I know so much more than everyone here does is that I am reading a book by a very prominent *Biblical scholar*. "God's Problem" by Bart D. Ehrman. His credentials are impeccable.

:)
simone, Your "blame the victim" excuse is very dogmatic and childish. (Please don't take my comment personally. It is a comment that many make)

Apparently, you have no conception of all the different kinds of misery and suffering that human beings may go through in their lives.

Christianity does not answer the most important theological question, nor does it help human beings deal with terrible suffering they go through. Just five or six philosophical *speculations*...no help in reality.

PS The reason I know so much more than everyone here does is that I am reading a book by a very prominent *Biblical scholar*. "God's Problem" by Bart D. Ehrman. His credentials are impeccable.


Since you do not believe Christianity or the Bible or God can explain sufferfering, enlighten us as to why there is suffering.




---------------------------------------------------------------



My wife states that the worst pain she has ever felt is childbirth. Three times, no epidural.
She states that what makes it tolerable, aside from her own toughness :), is the fact that it 1] ends, and 2] the joy that comes with the birth of her child.

I think, as a Christian, this life's suffering is tolerable because there is and end and at the end there is joy in being with our Lord :)





G&P

gromitt82,
YOU have made some very good points.
I hope many read it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

simone, Your "blame the victim" excuse is very dogmatic and childish. (Please don't take my comment personally. It is a comment that many make)

Apparently, you have no conception of all the different kinds of misery and suffering that human beings may go through in their lives. :)

Christianity does not answer the most important theological question, nor does it help human beings deal with terrible suffering they go through. Just five or six philosophical *speculations*...no help in reality. :)

PS The reason I know so much more than everyone here does is that I am reading a book by a very prominent *Biblical scholar*. "God's Problem" by Bart D. Ehrman. His credentials are impeccable.

Choux - I have to say that I agree in part that ultimately, every conceivable form of suffering is not ultimately answerable. What I mean is that I don't think that we are going to be given a definitive answer for every form of suffering that we deal with. However, I think that Job serves as a pedagogical tool to inform believers that suffering is to be expected in this life. After all, Jesus suffered one of the cruelest deaths imaginable, and knew full well what his end would be.

Choux, everyone of us has to make a decision when we face suffering. Will we accept it and persevere through it or will we tell God to go to hell. Suffering sorts all of us out that way, that is reality. So it doesn't surprise me that you seem particularly disappointed with the bible and how you feel it fails to answer suffering adequately and how it fails to help human beings deal with it. My sentiment is that God has given me enough evidence that suffering is to be expected... I have to come to terms with that; that life isn't always going to look like the American dream. Secondly, having the eyes to see that God will never forsake those he has committed himself to even though they will experience hardship is a tremendous encouragement to a believer. All of the apostles of Jesus were killed for their faith. Peter was told that eventually his life would end via crucifixion, and yet he still maintained his belief in and commitment to God. That's a real believer... someone who withstands suffering, remains committed to his God, and ultimately finds the promises of God worth giving his life for.

Lastly, your comment that "The reason I know so much more than everyone here does is that I am reading a book by a very prominent *Biblical scholar*. "God's Problem" by Bart D. Ehrman. His credentials are impeccable." Choux, I'm really disappointed by the arrogance of that statement. But more imporantly, that you feel all the more confident that you have the right perspective because you have read Bart D. Ehrman. I don't know who he is but unless he's God, I don't know that I should hand over my mind to his way of thinking because he's credentialed... that just doesn't strike me as very rational at all.

My opinion.

I'm still stuck on the comment that autistic people suffer. Because they are autistic??

Choux, you misunderstood me. "Blame the victim" only happens when we believe that we are separate entities.

We are all one, ours is not a better way, merely a different one. That's where my understanding lies today. That may seem a bit naïve or simplistic... Keeps me sane.

jakester,
I agree with you.
I don't know more than others about suffering but I do know about my own.
Right now my back hurts so bad that it is affecting my eye sight regardless of the pain pills I took. Without them it would be even more painful.
I suffer from my diabetes and bad painful knee.
I'm a victim of the consequences of living in this world. So be it.
I pray for relief and I offer my suffering up to God for the forgiveness of my sins and those of the people I know, love, and those I work with on this site.
That is the best I know of what to do about my suffering.
I will do my best to persevere through this and hope and pray that I have better days ahead.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The tendency some people have to debate over things they know nothing about as if they had all the possible answers reminds me of what our politicians do (at least in my country) when they have true problems.. Namely, to start disputing over things that have little, if anything to do with the problem.

In this case, I would ask you, dear Choux, who on earth Dr. Ehrman believe he is? To start with, and despite his impeccable credentials, he considers himself as agnostic, that is one who is unsure whether GOD exists!

Dr. Ehrman’s book is, by and large, not considered as editorially successful as Dan Brown’s DaVinci Code, for this one has been read by millions of people. Yet, that does not certify it to be either factual or even accurate in its description of the Louvre Museum! It is just a fiction novel, like any other of the thousands written yearly...

But, irrespective of this fact, which I do not think qualifies Dr. Ehrman to discuss the Bible dispassionately, to the best of my knowledge, I know of nobody –not even the Pope in Rome- who can seriously boast of having a direct RED PHONE LINE with our Creator.
The Fathers and Doctors of the Church, the most famed Theologians and Philosophers and all the Bible Scholars and Exegetes, all they have been able so far to do (and will keep on doing) is to interpret the Sacred Books and affirm, with a fair amount of conceit too, that they know why GOD decided to do this or that.

The only message we can consider as received directly from GOD’s own lips is Jesus’ message, imparted through the Gospels; that is, provided we accept that He forms part of the Holy Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, or in other words that HE is GOD.

As I already told you in my last answer the reasons of our sufferings can be many and/or very simple. Only GOD knows!

If you can await sometime more –which I truly wish will be as long as possible- you will eventually know the right answer to your question.

jakester,
I agree with you.
I don't know more than others about suffering but I do know about my own.
Right now my back hurts so bad that it is affecting my eye sight regardless of the pain pills I took. Without them it would be even more painful.
I suffer from my diabetes and bad painful knee.
I'm a victim of the consequences of living in this world. So be it.
I pray for relief and I offer my suffering up to God for the forgiveness of my sins and those of the people I know, love, and those I work with on this site.
That is the best I know of what to do about my suffering.
I will do my best to persevere through this and hope and pray that I have better days ahead.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred - what can we do my friend but cast ourselves upon the mercy of God. We all have our burdens, that is to be expected.

Fred, I must respectfully take issue with something you said, though: "I pray for relief and I offer my suffering up to God for the forgiveness of my sins..." I was troubled by this statement, I have to admit. My friend, do you really believe that your suffering will bring forgiveness from God for your sins? Jesus Christ was God's appointed servant of suffering... the road he travelled to Golgotha was the road to his ultimate suffering which would bring about the forgiveness of man's sins. Fred, do you believe that or do you not believe in the substitutionary death of Christ?

I'm not attacking you. But I think this is a worthy discussion. I am interested in knowing your thoughts in this matter.

Sincerely.

jakester,
I do not know if God will forgive sins when I offer my suffering up for fogiveness.
I just think that He may do so.
Some theologians think He may do so.
In my Church it is thought that He may do so.
So I do it in hopes that He will.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred - what can we do my friend but cast ourselves upon the mercy of God. We all have our burdens, that is to be expected.

Fred, I must respectfully take issue with something you said, though: "I pray for relief and I offer my suffering up to God for the forgiveness of my sins..." I was troubled by this statement, I have to admit. My friend, do you really believe that your suffering will bring forgiveness from God for your sins? Jesus Christ was God's appointed servant of suffering...the road he travelled to Golgotha was the road to his ultimate suffering which would bring about the forgiveness of man's sins. Fred, do you believe that or do you not believe in the substitutionary death of Christ?

I'm not attacking you. But I think this is a worthy discussion. I am interested in knowing your thoughts in this matter.

Sincerely.

Sorry to disagree with you.

A) Jesus Christ is not GOD's appointed servant. According to our RCC HE was GOD's SON. In any case, neither you nor I can do anything else but to believe or not believe this assertion.

B) According to our RCC, again, our sufferings can be applied by GOD against our sins. Still, this is something quite useless to debate for neither you, nor I (nor anybody) has any idea of GOD's designs.c) Jesus Christ death in the Cross was meant to redeem Mankind of its sins and help us therefore to reach our Salvation. Here there is something which we know historically, i.e. that someone by the name of Jesus died in the Cross.

As for the rest, it will depend on whether your faith allows you to believe HE was the Son of GOD, that is GOD himself, or not.

I would say debates can be basically made when the faith does not intervene. Whenever Faith comes in, it is just a matter or believing it or not.

To start with we cannot even start debating whether GOD exists or not. More than 9/10s of mankind believes in God, one way or other. The rest is atheists. However, they cannot prove GOD does not exist as much as we cannot prove the contrary.

gromitt82,
Yes. Very good.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Our suffering may be in many ways,, But have you ever thought it may be a test for your faith?
Maybe it's not just about you, nor it's about Job... Maybe it's to understand and know, Maybe it's because if we didn't feel the pain, we won't feel happiness.. May be to know the sweet, you need to taset the sour...
Maybe Job himself was a test.. For himself and every one learned about his story.

I think our suffering is not only a means for us to appreciate good health but also a vehicle for us to learn empathy. I never realized how much I take walking for granted until I had to use a wheelchair after surgery on my leg. Suddenly, parking lots looked huge and those heavy doors at stores needed thought -- I had to plan my shopping trips and parking (and even what time of day I shopped!) around my limited abilities. I have become much more sympathetic to the handicapped and all the hurdles they must encounter.

(Don't believe that "handicapped accessible" statement. It ain't true! There may be an oversized stall in a public bathroom big enough to accommodate your wheelchair, but when you go to wash your hands at the sink, you can't reach the faucets and the paper towels dispenser or hand dryer on-button is over your head. You wheel to the bathroom door to go back out into the hallway or store, and the door opens inward. Then what do you do? My advice -- borrow a whelchair and try it out at a store or mall some day.)

Fred - what can we do my friend but cast ourselves upon the mercy of God. We all have our burdens, that is to be expected.

Fred, I must respectfully take issue with something you said, though: "I pray for relief and I offer my suffering up to God for the forgiveness of my sins..." I was troubled by this statement, I have to admit. My friend, do you really believe that your suffering will bring forgiveness from God for your sins? Jesus Christ was God's appointed servant of suffering...the road he travelled to Golgotha was the road to his ultimate suffering which would bring about the forgiveness of man's sins. Fred, do you believe that or do you not believe in the substitutionary death of Christ?

I'm not attacking you. But I think this is a worthy discussion. I am interested in knowing your thoughts in this matter.

Sincerely.

Hello again, jakester.

I don't want to put words in Fred's mouth, but since he is Catholic I thought it might be helpful to offer a little clarification. The Catholic Church includes the notion of substitutionary atonement in its doctrine of salvation, but substitutionary atonement isn't the whole of it. This view of atonement emerged in the form in which it is widely recognized today by many Catholics, Lutherans, and Calvinists in Anselm's Cur Deus Homo. While the Catholic Church certainly recognizes the pure sacrifice of the Lamb of God as an act of atonement for fallen humanity, it regards the substitutionary character of that sacrifice to be only part of what is involved in atonement. As you may know, Orthodox Christians reject the notion of substitutionary atonement. Catholics, on the other hand, accept it but caution against a too one-sided application of this notion in understanding salvation.

I won't bore everyone to tears with a theology lesson. I just wanted to mention this as you seemed genuniely surprised that Fred didn't take a certain way of looking at substitutionary atonement for granted. As for the question why we suffer, the Catholic Church does not regard God as an angry judge demanding justice in the form of a propitiatory sacrifice but regards suffering as therapeutic, as medicine that heals us of the disease which is sin. Each of us may, therefore, offer our suffering to God as our own small sacrifice, prayerfully asking for our own forgiveness or for the forgiveness of others.

The great failure of the Bible is that it fails to answer the most important of our questions... "Why People Suffer". The good as well as the bad suffer terribly in life. EVERYONE SUFFERS.

The Bible does answer that question:
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

We must unite our sufferings to Christ if we want to be glorified with Him.


The Book of Job states there are two reasons for human suffering:

A. Suffering is a *test* and you will be rewarded later for passing the test.
B. Suffering is beyond comprehension.

Please provide the citation for B. Since A and B seem to contradict each other in your analysis.


Biblical Prophets say that suffering is a punishment for sinning. Then, why do good people suffer?

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


Christianity does not answer the reality that everyone suffers in life, the good and the bad and all between. We humans have that in common. :)

Yes, it does.

The Bad suffer as a consequence of their sin:
Psalm 11:6
Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

The Good suffer that they may prove their love of God:
Zechariah 13:9
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

The Between suffer that they may choose life and love or death and evil.
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Sincerely,

De Maria

Wondergirl and samdarwen,
Points well made.
Yes my suffering does make me far more aware of the suffering of others.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

God is always in control, he know exactly what we need for today and tomorrow. I believe
God is in control of every circumstance in our lives for our good. I know God allows Satan to tempt us and bring suffering upon us but I know God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:28, We live in a fallen world and sin and its consequences surround us .
God has given us adversity and suffering and that can be Gods greatest tool for advancing spirtitual growth. Your response can make all the difference .Remember that God has a purpose for our suffering, He has allowed us to suffer and it fits with His wonderful plan for our life.Gods thoughts are higher than ours, so we cannot expect to understand all that He is doing. He often takes the most painful experiences of adversity and uses them to prepare us for what lies ahead. It is very important that we learn how to respond properly to what happens in our life. As we begin to comprehend Gods purposes we can learn to react in ways that strengthens us rather than discourage us. When trouble strikes what we want is comfort and protection. We want to stand up to adversity with the strength of the Lord. God is with us , He will never fail us and we can always count upon Him. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. Prov 3:5

MAGGIE 3




l

Maggie 3,
Thanks much for your thots on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Maybe we could separate suffering to the suffering of a believer and the suffering of a non believer.
Those who believe in Christ suffer in Christ as He did with hope , but a non believer suffers in flesh with no hope.
Why do we suffer?Because our Lord suffered!A servant cannot be greater than his master!
If the Lord carried His cross,so must we!

adam7gur,
Great answer, brother Adam.
I particularly liked ,"A servant cannot be greater than his master!"
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Maybe we could seperate suffering to the suffering of a believer and the suffering of a non believer.
Those who believe in Christ suffer in Christ as He did with hope , but a non believer suffers in flesh with no hope.
Why do we suffer?Because our Lord suffered!A servant cannot be greater than his master!
If the Lord carried His cross,so must we!


We should ALL constantly remembering that "the servant cannot be greater than his master".
And yet, more often than not, we try to correct our Master by saying what we think GOD's LAW should be like and how it should be modified to suit our personal interest...

We should ALL constantly remembering that "the servant cannot be greater than his master".
And yet, more often than not, we try to correct our Master by saying what we think GOD's LAW should be like and how it should be modified to suit our personal interest...
Wasn't that the attitude that got us into trouble in the first place, in the Garden of Eden? Isn't that the umbrella attitude that causes us to commit any sin? We're like two year olds: "Me, me, me!"

Sorry to disagree with you.

A) Jesus Christ is not GOD's appointed servant. According to our RCC HE was GOD's SON. In any case, neither you nor I can do anything else but to believe or not believe this assertion.

B) According to our RCC, again, our sufferings can be applied by GOD against our sins. Still, this is something quite useless to debate for neither you, nor I (nor anybody) has any idea of GOD's designs.c) Jesus Christ death in the Cross was meant to redeem Mankind of its sins and help us therefore to reach our Salvation. Here there is something which we know historically, i.e. that someone by the name of Jesus died in the Cross.

As for the rest, it will depend on whether your faith allows you to believe HE was the Son of GOD, that is GOD himself, or not.

I would say debates can be basically made when the faith does not intervene. Whenever Faith comes in, it is just a matter or believing it or not.

To start with we cannot even start debating whether GOD exists or not. More than 9/10s of mankind believes in God, one way or other. The rest is atheists. However, they cannot prove GOD does not exist as much as we cannot prove the contrary.

Gromitt - I respect your right to disagree and actually appreciate that you do so tactfully. I suppose the only thing that troubles me which I care to really talk about is your constant defense of the uselessness of debating "for neither you, nor I (nor anybody) has any idea of GOD's designs." Again, I respect your right to disagree but I don't think your ideas can be fully appreciated because you make assertions like "Jesus Christ is not GOD's appointed servant" and then in the next breath you say with respect to God's application of suffering against our sin: "Still, this is something quite useless to debate for neither you, nor I (nor anybody) has any idea of GOD's designs." I guess my question is, if you feel that it is useless debating over these matters, then why even bother offering a perspective since neither you nor I (nor anybody) "...has any idea of GOD's design."

I value discourse and thinking critically over these issues and I believe the bible expects us to do the same, at least that is my belief. I feel that to deny our rational minds the opportunity to pursue truth and discover the meaning of our existence is lethargic of us and partly cowardly. Where is the integrity in that? Certainly, gromitt, I'll concede that there will always be things that remain hidden from our understanding this side of reality. But the bible is there to be explored and understood because it is the truth revealed from God because God has chosen to reveal himself through it. Since this is the case, it behooves us to consider its message... to wrestle with the implications of it... and to have the integrity at times to say "I don't understand what it is saying" but at other times to argue for the reasons I believe I do understand what it is saying. To me, that is responsible and necessary, not the alternative—which is to merely close it up and throw up my arms, relegating myself to question why any of this exercise is important because after all, "...this is something quite useless to debate for neither you, nor I (nor anybody) has any idea of GOD's designs." I wholeheartedly disagree with this assertion.

Respectfully.

gromitt82 and Jakester,
'Try this.
I agree with both of you though that would seem odd.
I believe I understand where both of you are coming from with your opinions.
I do appreciate that you both are disagreeing tactfully.
That's the best way for a discussion to go on.
Neither of you has twisted what the other has said.
That is something I abhor and I applauded you both for not doing so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Jakester, I also appreciate your comments.
Let me just say that whenever I remember to do it, I point out that I’m always prepared to accept that I may be wrong in my judgements.
Now then, when I say that "Jesus Christ is not GOD's appointed servant" I’m just expressing my belief that Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity (this is a dogma for us Catholics) and as such GOD himself. Therefore, Jesus being GOD cannot be GOD’s servant.
This can be understood only if one accepts the idea of the Holy Trinity. I repeat for the RCC this is a canon we have to accept and, consequently, cannot be considered as a design of GOD but just as another definition of GOD.
As for what we could denominate GOD’s designs meaning GOD wants this or that or intended to do this, or that we have no other alternative, I think, but to accept the many interpretations of the Sacred Texts, which have been made by men like you and I.
And, if I’m not worng, the one and only message delivered directly by GOD to man are the 10 Commandments dictated to Moses in the Sinai and, of course, the Gospels (Jesus’ message to men).
I would never dream of denying “our rational minds the opportunity to pursue truth and discover the meaning of our existence”
I would even say that it is probably our duty to do this investigation work. Actually, this is what theologians job is supposed to be.
What I question, though, is when someone in this board or elsewhere actually affirm in an axiomatic way that GOD’s will is what he/she is saying in the same way as he/she could assert President Obama’s intentions are such and such, AFTER having actually spoken to him…
The Bible is, of course, the one tool we have at our disposal to be explored… and one tool that we believe to have been inspired by GOD… But, alas! To start with there are as many interpretations of the Bible as translations and some may greatly differ among each other…
You may find congregations that actually believe the Earth is only 10 or 15.000 years old and the Adam was actually the first Man in our Planet…, And they invoke the Bible to prove it!
I would say it is useless to start a debate over that point… as it is to debate as to how GOD created the Universe we know (and the eventual one that we do not know yet) or start discussing Darwin’s evolution theory. Basically, because science is bringing in new evidence of things we just ignored a few years ago…
Galileo Galilei had to deny under oath that what he knew for sure was just a product of his imagination… And when I was a school boy I was taught that without any doubt the atom was the smaller particle there was. It was in 1942!
Still, I shall always defend your right to think otherwise as I see that you, so kindly, also accept my right to express my point of view!
Cordially,

gromitt82,
Very well said.
Easy to understand.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Jakester, I also appreciate your comments.
Let me just say that whenever I remember to do it, I point out that I'm always prepared to accept that I may be wrong in my judgements.
Now then, when I say that "Jesus Christ is not GOD's appointed servant" I'm just expressing my belief that Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity (this is a dogma for us Catholics) and as such GOD himself. Therefore, Jesus being GOD cannot be GOD's servant.
This can be understood only if one accepts the idea of the Holy Trinity. I repeat for the RCC this is a canon we have to accept and, consequently, cannot be considered as a design of GOD but just as another definition of GOD.
As for what we could denominate GOD's designs meaning GOD wants this or that or intended to do this, or that we have no other alternative, I think, but to accept the many interpretations of the Sacred Texts, which have been made by men like you and I.
And, if I'm not worng, the one and only message delivered directly by GOD to man are the 10 Commandments dictated to Moses in the Sinai and, of course, the Gospels (Jesus' message to men).
I would never dream of denying “our rational minds the opportunity to pursue truth and discover the meaning of our existence”
I would even say that it is probably our duty to do this investigation work. Actually, this is what theologians job is supposed to be.
What I question, though, is when someone in this board or elsewhere actually affirm in an axiomatic way that GOD's will is what he/she is saying in the same way as he/she could assert President Obama's intentions are such and such, AFTER having actually spoken to him…
The Bible is, of course, the one tool we have at our disposal to be explored… and one tool that we believe to have been inspired by GOD… But, alas! To start with there are as many interpretations of the Bible as translations and some may greatly differ among each other…
You may find congregations that actually believe the Earth is only 10 or 15.000 years old and the Adam was actually the first Man in our Planet…, And they invoke the Bible to prove it!
I would say it is useless to start a debate over that point… as it is to debate as to how GOD created the Universe we know (and the eventual one that we do not know yet) or start discussing Darwin's evolution theory. Basically, because science is bringing in new evidence of things we just ignored a few years ago…
Galileo Galilei had to deny under oath that what he knew for sure was just a product of his imagination… And when I was a school boy I was taught that without any doubt the atom was the smaller particle there was. It was in 1942!
Still, I shall always defend your right to think otherwise as I see that you, so kindly, also accept my right to express my point of view!
Cordially,

Gromitt - OK, so I understand a little bit better where you are coming from. I do see the inherent challenge in definitively stating that one thing is true and another thing is false, because as you have pointed out, viewpoints are sometimes challenged and ultimately refuted by new evidence. However, my conclusion still would not be that it is useless to debate over things... your examples are proof that simply relegating ourselves to see debates as useless, is not beneficial. If scientists had applied the notion that debating whether the atom was the smallest particle was useless, they would have never discovered that there were smaller particles like quarks. Is determining the exact age of the earth (whether 7,000 or 10,000 years old) really all that beneficial? I don't know... and perhaps that is one of those things that we might have a hung jury on. But I think that our view of what can be known and what cannot be known may be a subjective bias and if we start applying the frame of mind that things I can and cannot know are universally true for everybody, I may be overstepping my bounds. That is where I personally took issue with your earlier post.

But, I appreciate your humility in saying that you are prepared to accept that you may be wrong in your judgments. I have been wrong more times about things in my life than I can even count. As it pertains to matters of faith, I have changed my mind about many things pertaining to God. I suppose that when it comes right down to it, the process of sanctification is proof (as I see it anyway) that my ideas and thoughts about reality are not the final word. It is as Paul said in Romans 12:

"I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."

Sincerely.

Jakester,

As I’m no doubt much older than you are (83) I am also certain that I have been wrong many more times than you have ever been.

I could as well say that while I started my life more or less the right way (my family was very religious, and I went to a Piarist school – Escolapios). When I went to College my religious views started to peter out until shortly after I married, I concentrated in my job, as if it was the most important thing of my life. Succeeding in life and providing a good shelter and protection for my family was the paramount target and top priority which led me to forget there was a bigger priority which I was not attending to. This heavy mistake (speaking of being wrong) lasted until I retired.

However, GOD allowed me to correct this awful situation by allocating me some more time down here, which I am taking advantage of to sort of square my expense accounts with our Creator!

But trying to “make ends meet” as far St. Paul’s statement in Romans 12 “by the renewal of my mind, that by testing I may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect”, I end up every day by being mystified and befuddled by a number of questions I cannot find a completely satisfactory answer to.

Unquestionably, this is my own fault; it means that my faith is not strong enough and is full of questions marks!

This is why, sometimes, I feel that debating over certain religious subjects lead me nowhere except to more bewilderment…

The true saints, those martyrs that gladly offered their life, for they were certain they were going to enjoy forever the Kingdom, did not have any questions to place. They were totally confident their sacrifice will open for them the Gates of Heaven!

Their faith was imperishable and indestructible. Mine, obviously, is not. I surely concede still too much value to our worldly possessions… like my own life!

That is the problem with philosophy and science. Science primary tool is actual experimentation until it can prove for sure its theories. While philosophers are often disconnected from the reality science knows and, more recently, they even do not care if the are. It's not. Therefore, not surprising science would want to distance itself from philosophy. It becomes even more personal for the scientist when he's told that he must conform to preconceived views of the world. It started with Galileo having to renounce his scientific views on astronomy, but continued through the ages. On the other hand, Philosophy, often in the form of some religions, does not seek the truth. It seeks believers, and the truth may be an enemy as it happens in the Theocracies of some Islamic countries.

And, more often than not, I find myself riding one horse or the other, if you know what I mean…

Best regards

gromitt82,
That was a very interesting post.
With me also was many years where other thing of this world were more important yo me.
Peace and kindness.
Fred

What I was trying to emphasize is that while we proudly go about our life boasting of our Catholicism, deep inside our hearts, we are far from having a foolproof faith, or maybe we think it is, while it is not actually so.

Particularly in our part of the world, we are now able to see the results of our unspeakable materialism and greed. People who otherwise may claim they are good Christians have not hesitated to submerge millions of people into a state of despair. The “love thy neighbor" Commandment is gradually becoming, more than ever before, “every man for himself”.

On the other hand, we are constantly arguing, in the name of modernism, over principles of our religion which should not be even discussed.

Abortion, homosexuality, contraceptives, divorce, the family, sex, pornography… these are just a few realities we have to face every day, and more often than not we find ourselves utterly confused for while “our head thinks that perhaps they are right, our heart says they are not…”, as the song goes!

No, I think our faith is not strong enough. It is said that faith can move mountains, and it is true.

I have seen hundreds of people gathered in the Gats of Varanasi (the old Benares) waiting in line to get their daily bath in the waters of one of the most polluted rivers in the world, the Ganges. The concentration of coli forms bacteria per 100 milliliters is said to be 3000 times over safety limits. However, well over 70.000 bathers do take a bath every day.

It is true that a lot of people die of diarrhea sickness every month, but not as many as they should, according to some medical doctors. However, the faith of these bathers is so strong that, apparently, they become immunized.

The very same thing happens in Lourdes. The spring waters from the Grotto that fills in the small pools where people bath is never changed during the day. By the end of the evening, its color is rather dark, undoubtedly due to the hundreds that have bathed in them all day long. Therefore, the most natural thing in the world would be that the water be heavily contaminated by all kinds of microbes and bacteria from the sick people taking their bath in the hope of being cured.

And yet, no sicknesses have been ever reported to be spread because of these bathing. An estimated 200 million persons have visited the shrine since 1860, and the RCC so far has officially recognized only 67 miracle healings which are stringently examined for authenticity and authentic miracle healing with no physical or psychological basis other than the healing power of the water. These are, of course, the official healings accepted. Because unofficially they amount to several thousand every year…

Here, again, I am convinced that strong faith plays a paramount role in these healings whether they are considered as miracles…

Therefore, I believe that once one gets to that stage of faith is when one can really boast of being happily waiting for its transit to the Kingdom, don’t you think?

Claude,
Yes, I so think.
Fred

Claude,
Yes, I so think.
Fred

Thanks. And as the British like to say: "keep your upper lip stiff" or something like that...
All the best

Ok, but I most likely won't be hanging around a website in those times.

What does that mean? How have you avoided any suffering during your life time. How old are you?