I have been trying to study as much as I can about the book of Revelations, but I have been having a hard time understanding some of the content, can anyone help me to better understand this book!
Any help is appreciated!

That's a big question with a huge answer... Let me just give you an example

The book of Revelation means to uncover and reveal. John is taken to bear record to what he will be shown of the future.

First John is taken to the Lord's Day (1:10) and will be shown what is said by Our Lord concerning the 7 churches. Those are the seven candlesticks. (1:20)

The important fact known is that only 2 churches out of 7 will God be pleased in what they teach.

By chapter 4 John come up to heaven... And he is put in the spiritual form (4:2) seeing God on the throne. The four and twenty seats in (4:4) would be the courses of the sons of Aaron refer: (1 Chron, 24).

The seven lamps of fire (4:5) can be refer: in (Zech 4:2-10) as the eyes of the Lord which run to and fro through the earth. Also known as the Spirits of God.. Power, Riches, Wisdom, Strength, Honour, Glory, and Blessing.(Revel 5:12)

Hope that was some help

The Book of Revelation was written in code and describes events (mystically) that have already taken place.

I'd be happy to try and help you make sense of it. You need to narrow down what it is that you don't understand. I do not agree with wondergirl on this or Snd. Also to understand this book, you need to understand Daniel and some of the old testament prophecies.

Mostly what I don't understand is the seven seal judgements and what they intitle.

OK... you need to be even MORE specific. I am happy to help. Start with one verse and we will go from there. I am unsure where to begin... lets take it apart. Do you want to start with the white horse? Give me the verse you'd like to start with and this way others can join in the conversation.

Mostly what i dont understand is the seven seal judgements and what they intitle.

The seals are like that foretold truth you are to have locked in your mind which God has prepared for us. When you watch for these seals, each are evidence to occur. They offer God's path of truth in avoiding the deception that the false christ will brings.

You can also refer: Mark 13:5-27 that speaks of the same evidence ocurring, and it is Christ saying in Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

My friend it is always good to study any part of the bible. Revelations can be very confusing as it is full of metaphor and allusion. It is also the word of God and can be exciting and give you great hope. My suggestion is to read it several times without any aids. Then begin to exegete (critically interpret) each passage using hermeneutical (hermeneutics is the science of interpretation) aids such as concordances, commentaries, and Key word tools (key words translated in Greek/Hebrew). Several suggestions would be: pray for understanding, ask God to reveal what he wants/needs you to know, ask yourself who the authors audience was/is and what was the author trying to say to his audience. Don't get discouraged. The main point of revelations is that God is in control and the good guys win. If you are covered by the blood of Christ you do not have to worry so much about eschatology (study of the end times), no matter what happens God will take care of you. Your end time could come today - be ready.

I agree with Wondergirl and IKARIS.
Most of what is in revelation took place many years ago.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The book is called "The Revelation to John." Revelation, not Revelations.

Let's remember what is written in verse 3:20 and 3:21 of Revelation. "Hear Christ voice"

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Christ was found to be worthy to open the seals ,( Revel 5:2-5) Christ alone opened the seals ](Revel 5:9)&(Revel 6:1) so that John could bear withness to the Word of God and the testimony of Christ Jesus which were those things John saw---> (Revel 6:2 John saw). Blessed is he that reads it (Revel 1:3)

My heart of love in Christ says we should "hear Christ" and it is the person who seeks to find, that will have a door open to him or her to "hear Christ". Christ testimony says blessed is he that reads, and hears my voice.

Reader: it is your choice, whether it be the seals that Christ opens for us to see, or the written scripture of Mark 13: 8-27, Matthew 24:4-33, or Luke 21:8-32.. They are the voice of Christ saying hear my voice!

Yes, you are correct WG - "Revelation" - my bad. Revelation does not refer, however, to events only in the past (have you even read it). It is not written in code either. It is metaphoric and symbolic in style.

Yes, you are correct WG - "Revelation" - my bad. Revelation does not refer, however, to events only in the past (have you even read it). It is not written in code either. It is metaphoric and symbolic in style.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

The Revelation (Greek 602 apokalypsis)

1) laying bare, making naked
2) a disclosure of truth, instruction
a) concerning things before unknown
b) used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all
3) manifestation, appearance

Gal1:10-12 is a Revelation of Truth..

Gal:1:10-12 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

"Hear Christ Voice"

(have you even read it)
I was reading it when I was two, cut my teeth on it.

I'm stickin' to my story -- Revelation was written in code amd is about something that has happened already.

Yes, I have read it studied ir and taught it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, wondergirl,

Revelation the book that JOHN wrote... has NOT happened. We are the last Church the Lord Jesus spoke about. You are both in error.. but good news. I have come to set you straight... now aren't you happy??

Fred, wondergirl,

Revelation the book that JOHN wrote...has NOT happened. We are the last Church the Lord Jesus spoke about. You are both in error..but good news. I have come to set you straight...now aren't you happy???
You're too late. I knew the truth before you were born.

I like this:
"Unlike most books of the Bible, Revelation contains it's own title. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (1:1) Revelation (GR.,apokalupsis) means an uncovering, an unveiling, or a disclosure. In the NT this word describes the unveiling of spiritual truth (Ro 16-25; Gal1:12; Eph 1:17;3:3), the revealing of the sons of God (ro8:9), Christs incarnation (Lk 2:32) and his glorious appearing at his second coming (2Th 1:7;1Pe 1:7). in all its used Revelation refers to something or someone once hidden, becoming visible. What this book reveals or unveils is Jesus Christ in glory. truths about him and his final victory, that the rest of scripture mearly alludes to, become clearly visible through revelation about Jesus Christ. This revelation was given to him by God the father, and it was communicated to the Apostle john by an angle (rev1:1)"

I like this:
This revelation was given to him by God the father, and it was communicated to the Apostle john by an angle (rev1:1)"

For what reason?

Unless we are over looking the reason, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass... Not things that already came, but things that will come to pass...

I was reading it when I was two, cut my teeth on it.

I'm stickin' to my story -- Revelation was written in code amd is about something that has happened already.

Gee WG, if and that a BIG IF the Book of Revelation was written in code, then how do you know that the things contained in it have already happened??

Thanks Jake, but I cannot take credit for it this time. That belongs to someone far smarter than me.

Fred, wondergirl,

Revelation the book that JOHN wrote...has NOT happened. We are the last Church the Lord Jesus spoke about. You are both in error..but good news. I have come to set you straight...now aren't you happy???
[QUOTE=classyT;1532004]Fred, wondergirl,

First off, I would like you to show me where in the Bible does it say that Revelation actually belongs in the Bible. Also, on a side note, please refer me to were in the Bible does it say that Luke wrote Luke, And Mark wrote Mark. Please note that there is no inspired table of contents to tell us what books belong in the Bible. Now where in the bible does it talk about this last Church? You can't possibly be speaking of the "Church" mentioned in 1 Timothy 3;15. "...the Church of the living God, the PILLAR and GROUND of the truth."
You can't possibly expect me or anyone else to believe that these 75,000+ separate denominations of churches that can't even agree on something as important as baptism, who have conflicting doctrines, are The Church described in the Bible!

"You are both in error" No you are in error. By what authority do you judge that these people are in error?

"Can the blind lead the blind? Do they not both fall into the pit?" - Luke 6;39


~ PAX CHRISTUS

Respectfully DominusVobiscum You are not answering the OP's question. If you choose not to believe that the inspired words of God are contained in the bible, that is your right as a free person. However as Christians we do believe that. Certain parts of it's teachings come to disagreements because man not God has built religions and the doctrine they contain. If you are attending a church that teaches the whole, complete word of God and not the parts that suit them then you could fully understand and enter to the discussions here freely.
To directly answer your question. The bible in and of it self does contain true authorship of many of the books. Revelation 1:1-3 for example, Philemon 19 is another example, 2 Thessalonians 3:17 is another. Need I go on?
Classy was explaining that certain people were in error, I explained further why that is true. So please back up your claim that she was wrong with scripture if you can.

Now, to the OP's original question. There are many many excellent teachings by well known and respected bible scholars on the Book of Revelation. If you are interested in a couple, look up Grant Jefferies or Bible Prophesy revealed, John MacArthur for another and get their teachings on the subject. You can also look up Dr Jeremiah for a third option. While there are differences of opinions as to exactly what some of the passages might mean to a person they do believe that the book of Revelation has not yet come to pass. These are things of the end of days. Heck, if you want to understand more in a more modern context start reading the Left Behind series. While it is totally fictional and highly stylized there is truth in what he is trying to convey to the readers about the end times. There are a few religions that do not believe in the end times preferring to believe that the great tribulation is what we are seeing today. Or that it will not happen until Jesus returns to the earth or some other such non sense. If you get some good teaching series on the subject, I am sure you will understand further how the end plays out and how close we truly are to the end of this age.

Now, to the OP's original question. There are many many excellent teachings by well known and respected bible scholars on the Book of Revelation. If you are interested in a couple, look up Grant Jefferies or Bible Prophesy revealed, John MacArthur for another and get their teachings on the subject. You can also look up Dr Jeremiah for a third option. while there are differences of opinions as to exactly what some of the passages might mean to a person they do believe that the book of Revelation has not yet come to pass. These are things of the end of days., Heck, if you want to understand more in a more modern context start reading the Left Behind series. While it is totally fictional and highly stylized there is truth in what he is trying to convey to the readers about the end times. There are a few religions that do not believe in the end times preferring to believe that the great tribulation is what we are seeing today. Or that it will not happen until Jesus returns to the earth or some other such non sense. If you get some good teaching series on the subject, I am sure you will understand further how the end plays out and how close we truly are to the end of this age.
Please be clear. Those are beliefs by conservative, even fundamentalist, Christian churches. Many mainstream Christian churches do not believe in the End Times, the Rapture, etc.

WG please correct your comment to read Catholics, and a few other religions. Most mainstream Christians do believe in the Rapture and in how the book of Revelation tells it.
Thanks

WG please correct your comment to read Catholics, and a few other religions. Most mainstream Christians do believe in the Rapture and in how the book of Revelation tells it.
Thanks
Please name the Christian groups that do. Here's my list --

Lutherans don't, United Methodists don't, Episcopalians don't, Presbyterians don't, Catholics don't, Unitarians don't, Quakers don't, UCCers don't, Unity Christ Centers don't, Northern Baptists don't, American Baptists don't, Congregationalists don't.

"Independant Free" or "Bible Church" or "non-denominational" or "Pentecostal" or "Evangelical" (unless it's Evangelical and Reformed) as well as Assembly of God and Southern Baptist -- rural churches and big-city megachurches -- do.

The idea of a Rapture is a recent thing. From Wikipedia --

"The concept of the rapture, in connection with premillennialism, was expressed by the American Puritans Increase and Cotton Mather. They held to the idea that believers would be caught up in the air, followed by judgments on the earth and then the millennium. The term rapture was used by Philip Doddridge (1738) and John Gill (1748) in their New Testament commentaries, with the idea that believers would be caught up prior to judgment on the earth and Jesus' Second Coming. The concept of a pretribulation rapture was articulated by Baptist Morgan Edwards in an essay published in 1788 in Philadelphia.

John Nelson Darby, considered the father of dispensationalism, first understood the pretribulation rapture in 1827."

450donn,
History tell us that most of Revelation has already happened such as 666 (Nero) he is dead and long gone. So is the persecuting Roman empire.
Peace and kindness.
Fred

450donn,
History tell us that most of Revelation has already happened such as 666 (Nero) he is dead and long gone. So is the persecuting Roman empire.
Peace and kindness.
Fred

Fred I am alittle surprised to hear you say this...

We can read where it says that John was in spirit, and it was said to be The Lord's Day..

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

sndbay,
So!
That does not indicate that we should set aside the facts of history.
Most of what Reveleation predicted has come to pass long ago.
Peace and kmkindnemsss,
Fred

We can read where it says that John was in spirit, and it was said to be The Lord's Day
And that tells us what?

Wondergirl.
Good question.
What's the answer?
Fred

Please name the Christian groups that do. Here's my list --

Lutherans don't, United Methodists don't, Episcopalians don't, Presbyterians don't, Catholics don't, Unitarians don't, Quakers don't, UCCers don't, Unity Christ Centers don't, Northern Baptists don't, American Baptists don't, Congregationalists don't.

"Independant Free" or "Bible Church" or "non-denominational" or "Pentecostal" or "Evangelical" (unless it's Evangelical and Reformed) as well as Assembly of God and Southern Baptist -- rural churches and big-city megachurches -- do.

The idea of a Rapture is a recent thing. From Wikipedia --

"The concept of the rapture, in connection with premillennialism, was expressed by the American Puritans Increase and Cotton Mather. They held to the idea that believers would be caught up in the air, followed by judgments on the earth and then the millennium. The term rapture was used by Philip Doddridge (1738) and John Gill (1748) in their New Testament commentaries, with the idea that believers would be caught up prior to judgment on the earth and Jesus' Second Coming. The concept of a pretribulation rapture was articulated by Baptist Morgan Edwards in an essay published in 1788 in Philadelphia.

John Nelson Darby, considered the father of dispensationalism, first understood the pretribulation rapture in 1827."

Right!

And don't forget: more than 500 million Orthodox don't.

Akoue,
That includes 1 billion more that don't
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

May I respectfully say that I think all of you are missing the really important part of the Book of Revelation?
I refer to the first four chapters and the letters to the seven churches in Asia.
In these letters Jesus Himself tells us what qualities He requires in a church in order for it to represent Him on this Earth.
Those churches that fail to measure up must either repent or their light will be removed.
For those of us who plan to leave at the Rapture, all the rest of the book will not have any bearing of us.
If we stay here, then we are in real trouble.

galvestonm
That is IF you believe in the rapture.
I certainly do not it is not a biblical teaching.
Yes revelation does give us direction on what a the people in a church should be like.
But that has nothing to do with any rapture.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Just as Genesis is the book of beginning so Revelation is the book of completion.
In it, we see how God finalizes the divine program of redemption and vindicatles
His holy name before all creation. Revelation also features high moments of worship
Which the residents of heaven and the saints of God praise the Lord for His holy character
And righteous judgments. These extraordinary times of worship are usually presented as joyful songs of praise. Revelation was originally written to seven local churches in
Asia Minor, but its message applies to all christians everwhere. Jesus is coming
Again in great power and glory, and His certain return should motivate us every day to Spirit filled, loving action on His behalf.
Revelation centers around awesome visions and extraordinary symbols of resurrected
Christ, who alone has authority to judge the earth, to remake it and to rule it in
Righteousness.

AS you read revelation, watch for several life principles that play an important roll in this book .{An eager anticipation of the Lord's return in this book}Rev.30

{Obedience aleays brings blessings] Rev. 21

[The dark moments of our life will last only as long as is necessary for God to
Accomplish His purpose in us] Rev. 7

[You reap what you sow, more than you sow, and later than you sow.] 6.

This is some of what Dr. Charles Stanley has written on Revelation.


For your info The apostle John wrote Revlation during his exile on the island of Patmos.
Most scholars believe the book was written around A>D> 90-95.
I suggest you get an easy reading bible like the Living Bible or Living Translation.

Blessings,

Maggie 3

galvestonm
That is IF you believe in the rapture.
I certainly do not it is not a biblical teaching.
Yes revelation does give us direction on what a the people in a church should be like.
But that has nothing to do with any rapture.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Rapture IS Biblical. It will happen.

1 corinthians 15
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.

1 thessalonians 4
The Hope of the Resurrection
13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died[f] so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[g] 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died[h] will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words.

Galveston,
Sorry, but I can not believe in multiple comings of Christ.
The bible says that there will be only one.
Read the book "THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE HOAX" by Harry Bethel.
It biblically proves that there will be n rapture.
There are several books out that prove that including "The Rapture Trap" by Dr. Paul Thigpen.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,
You have argued that before and it still is funny to me. Jesus sounds a trumpet and those living and dead in Christ will rise. No where does it say that Jesus will set foot on the earth does it? The second coming of Christ is at the battle of Armageddon and judgment day. Do you really want to live through all of the seven years of tribulations that are taught in Revelation? I certainly do not.

Fred,
You have argued that before and it still is funny to me. Jesus sounds a trumpet and those living and dead in Christ will rise. No where does it say that Jesus will set foot on the earth does it? The second coming of Christ is at the battle of Armageddon and judgment day. Do you really want to live through all of the seven years of tribulations that are taught in Revelation? I certainly do not.
Have a great time during those seven years. Fred and I will be enjoying heaven.

And why would Jesus have to set foot on earth to sound a trumpet? Which foot? Where on earth? Will the trumpet be brass or made of silver? Will we get box lunches and a catered dinner, because it certainly will take God all day to judge all those billions of people. Will we be able to sit? I can't stand for that many hours. My cats will need to be fed. Certainly God won't want us to abandon our responsibilities to our pets? Or will God cause all pets and other animals to die on Judgment Day? That sounds pretty mean. (Methinks you are too involved thinking of the logistics of the Last Day.)

Galveston,
Sorry, but I can not believe in multiple comings of Christ.
The bible says that there will be only one.
Read the book "THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE HOAX" by Harry Bethel.
It biblically proves that there will be n rapture.
There are several books out that prove that including "The Rapture Trap" by Dr. Paul Thigpen.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Only one? I count two.

Acts 1:9-11
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
NKJV

The rapture is not a return to earth by Jesus, but a gathering of the saints.

Originally Posted by arcura
Galveston,
Sorry, but I can not believe in multiple comings of Christ.
The bible says that there will be only one.
Read the book "THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE HOAX" by Harry Bethel.
It biblically proves that there will be n rapture.
There are several books out that prove that including "The Rapture Trap" by Dr. Paul Thigpen.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Posted by Tj3: Only one? I count two.

Acts 1:9-11
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
NKJV


The rapture is not a return to earth by Jesus, but a gathering of the saints.

Posted by Akoue: Akoue disagrees: This is misleading as the quoted Scripture does not demonstrate that there will be two second comings. What is the second second coming? An encore?

Hey Akoue, Note that I said that there were two comings of Christ, not two second comings. Please, let's be honest when responding, and not mis-represent what others have said.

Hey Akoue, Note that I said that there were two comings of Christ, not two second comings. Please, let's be honest when responding, and not mis-represent what others have said.
C'mon, Tom. What you said was misleading. Even I who have known you for years and years had to think about what you had written and consider what you meant.

C'mon, Tom. What you said was misleading. Even I who have known you for years and years had to think about what you had written and consider what you meant.

It was quite clear. I said 2 comings, and I stated specifically that the rapture was not a coming.

If someone thought it was unclear, then the right approach is to ask for clarification. Further, those who have really known me for years, indeed those who have known me for shorter periods know what I believe in terms of the rapture, and never in my entire life have I stated that there was anything more that the com,ing of Jesus in the 1st century, the coming of Jesus in the second coming and the rapture of the saints (which I and others clearly explained was NOT a "coming").

Anyone who claims others is mis-representing what I said.

Ok, Tom.

450donn,
It is recorded the Messiah will indeed set foot on earth when the third temple is built and appear from it and He will NOT return before it is built.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes, Fred, that is the time he comes for the battle of Armegeddon and to judge the whole earth. This is the time he comes to set up his kingdom here on earth.
Oh and the Rapture was clearly spoken about in writings from I believe the first century. It is nothing new as you and others try to claim. 1Th4:16,Tit2;13, Jn14:1-3, 1Co15:51-53, 1Th4:15-5:11, 1Co 3:11-15, 2Co5:10
In fact the tribulation period starts from the time that the church is taken away as attested to in: Jn14:1-3, 1Th4:13-18,

450donn,
Sorry, I still can not believe in it.
I have read too much about it to accept other than as bogus theology.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,
I am really sorry that you do not believe the word of God on this subject. All I can do is pray that God will remove the blinders that you have so firmly affixed to your head so that you can see the way and truth of his teachings. Many do not want to understand and for them I really have to pray that they are not so misguided that they are left here on earth at the rapture (taking up) of his church. Which signals the start of the tribulation for those that remain here on earth.
Sorry to the OP that we have really gotten off topic and probably failed to properly answer his original questions.
Techpro There are many many resources on this subject. If your church does not teach it to your satisfaction, then please by all means find one that does. Or at least find a church that has/offers the information to help you on your journey of discovery about this fascinating subject. As you can see there is a great debate among the different denominations on this subject. While everybody believes their view is the right one and all others are wrong, I believe that we will see a fulfilling of the prophesies concerning the last days of the earth very soon. Ref Mat25, the parable of the ten virgins came to my mind while I was typing. It teaches us to be vigilant for the return of Jesus.

450donn,
Thanks but I am very satisfied with The Church I belong to.
If the rapture does occure and I meet you after I'll apologise.
But I'm certain NOW that there will be noe rapture AS IT IS BEING TAUGHT NOW DAYS.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I have been trying to study as much as i can about the book of Revelations, but i have been having a hard time understanding some of the content, can anyone help me to better understand this book!
Any help is appreciated!

This is almost impossible to answer in the limited spece we have here. However, should you ask some definite question or mention a particularly difficult paragraph for you to understand, I may try to help you, to the best of my possibilities.

This is almost impossible to answer in the limited spece we have here. However, should you ask some definite question or mention a particularly difficult paragraph for you to understand, I may try to help you, to the best of my possibilities.

Well gromitt first of all I don't understand the part about the battle in heaven between the angels and the dragon!

kingdom here on earth.
Oh and the Rapture was clearly spoken about in writings from I believe the first century. It is nothing new as you and others try to claim.

Please provide sources to this documentation that you claim that the rapture was clearly spoken about in the early centuries. Next, I would like to ask if you are pre, mid, or post?

450donn,
Thanks but I am very satisfied with The Church I belong to.
Fred

Hey, I was just wondering what church are you a member of? I know saying "The Church" is an allusion to something but I can only speculate your intentions.:D

DominusVobiscum and all of the other fine people here on this forum that are interested in the writing of the end days, here is a link for you to go and read for yourselves.
Early Church Teaching On Pre-Tribulation Rapture (http://www.pawcreek.org/articles/endtimes/EarlyTeachingOnPreTrib.htm)

Believe, don't believe that is totally up to you.

DominusVobiscum and all of the other fine people here on this forum that are interested in the writing of the end days, here is a link for you to go and read for yourselves.
Early Church Teaching On Pre-Tribulation Rapture (http://www.pawcreek.org/articles/endtimes/EarlyTeachingOnPreTrib.htm)

Believe, don't believe that is totally up to you.

Now don't be ridiculous 450don, this is not proof that the early church believed in the pre-trib rapture. This just proves that some isolated members of the Church believed in the rapture as you describe it. I asked for proof that the Church as a whole taught the rapture.
Also look at this list of early church leaders in 330-335 that taught heresy; In the church in Antioch, Paulinus (330), Eulalius (330), Euphronius (332), Flaccilus (335). They all taught Arianism! Now does that prove that the early Church as a whole taught and believed Arianism? No of course not! It just proves that a few heretical leaders adhered to heresy. Not the whole Church. So again, can you please show me documentation that proves the early Church taught the Rapture?

DominusVobiscum and all of the other fine people here on this forum that are interested in the writing of the end days, here is a link for you to go and read for yourselves.
Early Church Teaching On Pre-Tribulation Rapture (http://www.pawcreek.org/articles/endtimes/EarlyTeachingOnPreTrib.htm)

Believe, don't believe that is totally up to you.

Now don't be ridiculous 450don, this is not proof that the early church believed in the pre-trib rapture. This just proves that some isolated members of the Church believed in the rapture as you describe it. I asked for proof that the Church as a whole taught the rapture.
Also look at this list of early church leaders in 330-335 that taught heresy; In the church in Antioch, Paulinus (330), Eulalius (330), Euphronius (332), Flaccilus (335). They all taught Arianism! Now does that prove that the early Church as a whole taught and believed Arianism? No of course not! It just proves that a few heretical leaders adhered to heresy. Not the whole Church. So again, can you please show me documentation that proves the early Church taught the Rapture?

And I could ask you the same thing. I gave you one link to the article I referred to just like you asked, and you want to still argue about it. Please go back and reread my original post. That is fine, But don't try and drag me into debating you. I NEVER claimed that it was taught in the catholic church. I did say that it was written about in what I remembered as the first century. My mistake it was the 4th century. It is obvious that you will not believe no matter what Remember that the Pharisees also refused to believe what was right in front of them in the form of Jesus Christ. And instead crucified him in accordance with the scriptures. Yet they still did not believe!

DominusVobiscum,
Any time I use the term "The Church" with capitol letters I refer to The Church that Jesus founded with Peter as its first leader that is now called The Catholic Church which I became a member of over 30 years ago after leaving Protestantism.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

DominusVobiscum,
Any time I use the term "The Church" with capitol letters I refer to The Church that Jesus founded with Peter as its first leader that is now called The Catholic Church which I became a member of over 30 years ago after leaving Protestantism.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I knew it! I also use that allusion. But I just wanted to make sure. By the way, what rite do you belong to? I belong to the Roman rite.

To the OP. The battle between the angels and the dragon may be accepted as literal, though unseen by men. The dragon is a portrayal of Satan himself, and he and his angels will be thrown down to the surface of this planet. As of right now, they still have access to the heavens, at least to the immediate heavens, i.e. the atmosphere.

But didn't god banish him from the heavens before therefore creating hell?

but didn't god banish him from the heavens before therefore creating hell?
No. Even though Hell was created for the devil and his angels, none of them have been there---yet. In the book of Job, we see Satan appearing at the throne of God making accusation against Job.

Eph 2:2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(KJV)

In this scripture you see Satan identified as "the prince of the power of the air" so his casting down to the Earth is still future.

No. Even though Hell was created for the devil and his angels, none of them have been there---yet.

So when you say this you mean Satan was never actually sent to the hell that was created for him, just sent down to the earth to tempt us?

So when you say this you mean Satan was never actually sent to the hell that was created for him, just sent down to the earth to tempt us?
I simply mean that though Satan has been judged, he has not yet been incarcerated. He will be though. You have to understand that this Earth was under the oversight of the Archangel who later rebelled against God. We know him as Satan or the devil. Adam was given oversight, but forfeited it when he rejected God and accepted Satan as his advisor. God operates by laws that we only slightly comprehend, but since He (God) had turned this world over to Adam and Adam subsequently turned it back to Satan, it became necessary to regain full control by the bringing of life back into situation that had become a realm of death. All the history of the Bible is a record of Jehova's plan to keep His promise to Eve concerning "her seed" (Messian/Christ). We will all be tested and proven before we are allowed to enter into the Eternal City of God. So in this respect, even Satan serves some function in spite of himself.

I have been trying to study as much as i can about the book of Revelations, but i have been having a hard time understanding some of the content, can anyone help me to better understand this book!
Any help is appreciated!

Techpro - the Book of Revelation was a book that got into the canon by the skin of its teeth. It was essentially ignored for a thousand years, then in the 19th century the Fundamentalists got ahold of it and made it into something it was never intended to be.

It was written about the Roman Empire but you will never convince present-day fundamentalists that this is what it was all about. The radical right of Christianity loves to see Satan and the Catholic Church in this quirky book. It was the Harry Potter book of the day.

It is by far the best example of how badly some folks can interpret the Bible to fit their agenda.

Main stream theologians (Lutheran, Catholic, Anglican, etc.) have long since discarded this book as meaning anything other than its original intention as a coded message against the Roman Empire.

The fundamentalists love it.

DominusVobiscum,
Any time I use the term "The Church" with capitol letters I refer to The Church that Jesus founded with Peter as its first leader that is now called The Catholic Church which I became a member of over 30 years ago after leaving Protestantism.

Jesus never appointed Peter as the head of any church. The Church that Jesus Christ established is the body of all believers that He called the Body of Christ. He did not found a denomination.

1 Cor 12:26-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 2
NKJV

Jesus never appointed Peter as the head of any church. The Church that Jesus Christ established is the body of all believers that He called the Body of Christ. He did not found a denomination.

1 Cor 12:26-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 2
NKJV


Sorry, but Jesus DID appoint Peter as head of his church. It couldn't be more clear in the Gospel.

Sorry, but Jesus DID appoint Peter as head of his church. It couldn't be more clear in the Gospel.

It must have been penciled in in yours.:D

It is not in mine. Mine says Jesus was and is and remains head of the church:

Eph 5:22-24
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV

So, He is head of my Church. Sorry to hear about yours. ;)

It must have been penciled in in yours.:D

It is not in mine. Mine says Jesus was and is and remains head of the church:

Eph 5:22-24
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV

So, He is head of my Church. Sorry to hear about yours. ;)



You need to read the Gospel.

I have a book called "Revelation, Gods Word for Biblically-Inept"
It is by Daymond R. Duck.You should take a look at it. I found it very useful

Maggie 3

You need to read the Gospel.

I have - all of them many times, and I can state categorically that there is nothing in any of them saying that Christ ceased being head of the church and turned that over to any man.

DominusVobiscum
Roman Rite.
And the bible DOES clearly say that Jesus appointed Perter as the leader of His Church on earth and gave him the keys to heaven.
Matthew 16: 18. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I have - all of them many times, and I can state categorically that there is nothing in any of them saying that Christ ceased being head of the church and turned that over to any man.


I don't think you have. Try again. It's all very clear.

I don't think you have. Try again. It's all very clear.

Think as you wish - but I have, many times, and very thoroughly.

As the scripture that I quoted states - Christ is the head of the church.

DominusVobiscum
Roman Rite.
And the bible DOES clearly say that Jesus appointed Perter as the leader of His Church on earth and gave him the keys to heaven.
Matthew 16: 18. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Is that what you were thinking of?

Matt 16:13-19
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
NKJV

What do we see here?

- Jesus was speaking to his disciples as a group

- The topic was "who is Jesus"

- Peter answered that he is the Messiah, son of the living God.

- Jesus does not immediately refer to Peter, but rather the fact that the revelation of the truth came from God the father.

The word Peter here is Petros, which means stone or a piece of a rock, and then Jesus refers to the "rock" which is the revelation of who he is, and states that His church shall be built upon this revelation that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. The word "rock" here is Petra, which means rock, or a mass of rock. We do not build a building upon a piece of a rock or a stone, but rather upon a rock that is massive enough to provide a solid foundation. Jesus' choice of words made it clear which should be the foundation of His church. It is interesting to note the consistency of scripture in the use of these terms, Rock and stone. Throughout scripture, the Rock refers to God (Father or Son):

I have PM and asked for them to explain the relationship,

But the OP techpro and the other new poster here DominusVobiscum are using the same IP address, and use the same server for their email address.

I have asked for them to explain this to me but we may well have the same person, answering thierself

DominusVobiscum
Roman Rite.
And the bible DOES clearly say that Jesus appointed Perter as the leader of His Church on earth and gave him the keys to heaven.
Matthew 16: 18. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hi Fred.

That's a great verse. It's even more clear in Aramaic, the language in which Matthew was originally written: "And I tell you you are KEPHA, and on this KEPHA I will build my church". Sure seems like Christ was talking to Peter about Peter, doesn't it?

Think as you wish - but I have, many times, and very thoroughly.

As the scripture that I quoted states - Christ is the head of the church.


I don't think you have. And not as thoroughly as you may think.

I don't think you have. And not as thoroughly as you may think.

Well, once again, you are welcome to believe as you wish, but simply saying "nah yah" (or the equivalent thereof) is not a dialogue on the issue at hand. You are always welcome to disagree, and you are encouraged to put forward validated rationale for your position, but deal with the issue and please stop pointing fingers at others and essentially calling them liars when you know nothing about them.

John 1:41-42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
NKJV

Well, once again, you are welcome to believe as you wish, but simply saying "nah yah" (or the equivalent thereof) is not a dialogue on the issue at hand. You are always welcome to disagree, and you are encouraged to put forward validated rationale for your position, but deal with the issue and please stop pointing fingers at others and essentially calling them liars when you know nothing about them.

John 1:41-42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
NKJV


Calling people liars does not become you. It does less for your position. Read the Gospel and let the Gospel interpret itself for you. You will be a new person.

Calling people liars does not become you.

Read more carefully - it is you claiming that I am lying. And I agree that it does not bring credit to your position - I am glad that you realize that and I hope that perhaps you will change your approach.


It does less for your position. Read the Gospel and let the Gospel interpret itself for you. You will be a new person.

I have. That is why I say that Jesus is head of the church, not any man.

Eph 5:22-24
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV

Read more carefully - it is you claiming that I am lying. And I agree that it does not bring credit to your position - I am glad that you realize that and I hope that perhaps you will change your approach.



I have. That is why i say that Jesus is head of the church, not any man.

Eph 5:22-24
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV


Once again, read the Gospel. The truth shall set you free.

Once again, read the Gospel. The truth shall set you free.

I thought that we were past that "nah yah" / finger pointing approach. Once again, I have read all of the gospel in details many times, and studied them in detail and the truth has set me free. That is why my focus is on Jesus Christ as the head of my Church,

Eph 5:22-24
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV

And on His cross on the source of my salvation, not any mere man, nor any organization of men, or any works of men.

1 Cor 2:1-2
2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
NKJV

It is the ONLY way.

I thought that we were past that "nah yah" / finger pointing approach. Once again, I have read all of the gospel in details many times, and studied them in detail and the truth has set me free. That is why my focus is on Jesus Christ as the head of my Church,

Eph 5:22-24
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV

and on His cross on the source of my salvation, not any mere man, nor any organization of men, or any works of men.

1 Cor 2:1-2
2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
NKJV

It is the ONLY way.


I don't think you have. But keep trying. A strong effort will be rewarding for you.

I don't think you have. But keep trying. A strong effort will be rewarding for you.

Like I said, simply calling others liars because they disagree with you is not compelling, but no matter what I say, I will never deny my Lord or the gospel, nor will I go for a different gospel which denies the sovereignty of my Lord.

Try as you will.

Tj3,
You interpret it as you want to to fit what you want to believe.
It IS clear that Jesus was talkong to Perter when He said YOU and Jesus gave Peter (YOU) the keys to heaven.
That is what I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Like I said, simply calling others liars because they disagree with you is not compelling, but no matter what I say, I will never deny my Lord or the gospel, nor will I go for a different gospel which denies the sovereignty of my Lord.

Try as you will.


The Gospel, my friend, the Gospel. That is what you should be reading, not calling people liars. There's hope for you yet.

Tj3,
You interpret it as you want to to fit what you want to believe.
It IS clear that Jesus was talkong to Perter when He said YOU and Jesus gave Peter (YOU) the keys to heaven.
That is what I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.


Did Jesus speak to Peter personally in Matthew 16:19 to Peter by using the Greek singular of the word "you"? Let's look at other places where Jesus used the Greek singular of "you":

Matt 5:23-26
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you are thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
NKJV

In this passage, Jesus uses the Greek singular of then word "you" in each case that is highlighted. The various occurrences varies in case only (Dative, Genitive or Accusative), but all are the singular of the Greek word "you". So whom is He speaking to in Matthew 5? Let's go back to the start of the chapter and see:

Matt 5:1-2
5:1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:
NKJV

He is therefore speaking to the "multitudes", not an individual, yet His words are aimed at each person as an individual by using the singular of the Greek word "you". If we look at Matthew 16 in context, we see the same thing. Jesus speaking to a number of people, but using the singular to point out that every person, as a priest (1 Peter 2:9) has a responsibility to use the keys, the gospel,
To bring people to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Those who would take the keys and claim them for themselves are following the path of the Pharisees, not of Jesus.

Man is fallible -why would God make his foundation fallible. The confession is the gospel - that Jesus is the Messiah, the son of the Living God. That is a perfect foundation for the church, the confession of the gospel of Jesus, not a man. Jesus remains the head of the church, and the gospel is the foundation.

The Gospel, my friend, the Gospel. That is what you should be reading, not calling people liars.

Exactly - so if you know that, why are you calling others liars?

Jesus warned me that this would happen.

John 15:20-22
20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.
NKJV


BTW, do you know that the gospel says that Jesus is the head of the church?

Eph 5:22-24
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV

Mt.17-19 is in direct address. Jesus addresses Peter in v.17 as "Simon Bariona" and, the grammar indicates still in direct address, says to him, to Simon Bariona, "I call you Peter [KEPHA], and--in v.19, still in direct address, "on this Kepha I will build my church". There is no plural indicated--the endings would be different. We do find a singular reflexive, though.

Exactly - so if you know that, why are you calling others liars?

Jesus warned me that this would happen.

John 15:20-22
20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.
NKJV


BTW, do you know that the gospel says that Jesus is the head of the church?

Eph 5:22-24
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV

Wait, so does the quote from John indicate that you feel you are being PERSECUTED?

Wait, so does the quote from John indicate that you feel you are being PERSECUTED?

If a person continues to obsessively make false accusations because of my profession of faith in Jesus,. you put the pieces together.

Exactly - so if you know that, why are you calling others liars?

Jesus warned me that this would happen.

John 15:20-22
20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.
NKJV


BTW, do you know that the gospel says that Jesus is the head of the church?

Eph 5:22-24
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV


TJ, I'm sure you are aware that many people are watching you here. Aren't you embarrassed about calling others liars? Surely you know that all your posts are out there for anyone to read?

The point is the Gospel. Please read it. We'll wait.

Mt.17-19 is in direct address. Jesus addresses Peter in v.17 as "Simon Bariona" and, the grammar indicates still in direct address, says to him, to Simon Bariona, "I call you Peter [KEPHA], and--in v.19, still in direct address, "on this Kepha I will build my church". There is no plural indicated--the endings would be different. We do find a singular reflexive, though.

Your Bible reads differently than mine. Mine says:

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros - stone), and on this rock (petra - rock) I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
NKJV

TJ, I'm sure you are aware that many people are watching you here. Aren't you embarrassed about calling others liars? Surely you know that all your posts are out there for anyone to read?

Yes, everyone can read it - so why do you carry on? Do you find it so hard to defend your position without abusing others?


The point is the Gospel. Please read it. We'll wait.

Let me ask you - do you profess to be a believer in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour?

Your Bible reads differently than mine. Mine says:

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros - stone), and on this rock (petra - rock) I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
NKJV

Yeah, I've seen the petros/petra line before. Problem is, that was a distinction in Attic Greek, not in Koine. So that won't work. Plus, the Aramaic word is Kepha both times (as I pointed out in my earlier post).



If a person continues to obsessively make false accusations because of my profession of faith in Jesus,. you put the pieces together.

Wow, and the martyrs thought they had it hard. They never had to face questions on an internet forum!

Well you guys lasted longer than normal.

Thread closed