“Christ established the kingdom of God on earth, manifested His Father and Himself by deeds and words, and completed His work by His death, resurrection and glorious Ascension and by the sending of the Holy Spirit.” Dei Verbum V 17

1. What and where is the Kingdom of God?
2. Do we see it in the Old Testament? Does it differ between the Old Testament and the New Testament?
3. How and when do we enter the Kingdom of God?
4. Do you understand the “Kingdom of God” to be the same as “Kingdom of Heaven?”
5. Or do you hold the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God to be two different Kingdoms?

Feel free to answerer one or more of the above.


JoeT

Question edited to removed denominatinal reference and to removed request for restriction on answers. FC

1. THE KINGDOM OF god is wherever God reigns over the lives of His subjects.
The Kingdom of God is not visible because God is not visible. It is a spiritual
Kingdom, not a visible one. As for where the kingdom of God is look up
Luke 17:20, 21. "Once, having been asked by the pharisees when the kingdom of God will come, Jesus replied The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say Here it is or here it is because the kingdom of God is
within YOU."

Maggie 3

John3: 3 "Unless one is born again He cannot see the Kingdom
od God" Jesus said John3:5 "Unless One is born of water and the spirt, , he cannot enter the Kingdom of God." It comes about when one receives Jesus' sacrificial death to cleanse from sin and make Jesus the Lord of his spirit, and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. With the new birth, the spirit of man is recreated and enjoined with Gods spirit
enableling us to have the spiritual vision necessary to see and enter the kingdom of God.

Maggie3


.

1. THE KINGDOM OF god is wherever God reigns over the lives of His subjects.
The Kingdom of God is not visible because God is not visible. It is a spiritual kingdom, not a visible one. As for where the kingdom of God is look up
Luke 17:20, 21. Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God will come, Jesus replied the kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say Here it is or here it is because the kingdom of God is within YOU.

Maggie 3

Maggie:

Thanks for your response. As I understand you are proposing that the Kingdom is only a spiritual place, not associated with an earthly domain. If I've understood correctly, then how do you render what God said to Moses on Mt. Sinai, “If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” (Ex.19: 5, 6)? What happens to this Kingdom? Matthew tells us that the Kingdom will be taken from the Jews and given to others, yielding first fruits. (Cf. Matt 21:33-46).

Also, the contention is that the Kingdom of God is within us then the following verses are telling us to seek justice within?
Luke 12:31 But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his justice: and all these things shall be added unto you. 32 Fear not, little flock, for it hath pleased your...
Matt 6: 33 Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Be not therefore solicitous for to morrow;...
Are there inconsistencies, can you resolve them? Or, are these unrelated verses?

JoeT

Joe,
I am thinking that this refers to after Armageddon and after God establishes his kingdom here on earth.
As it stands today, God has done everything he can on the earth until the time of judgment. Then the New Heaven and Earth will be established. At that time he will be among his people just like in the days of Adam and Eve.

Hello, JoeT - these are my thoughts.

1) What and where is the Kingdom of God? It is my belief that the Kingdom of God is the kingdom that God is in the process of building now through the redemption of his elect— "hagioi", also know as the called out ones or the holy (sanctified) ones. Ultimately, the kingdom itself is God dwelling amongst his people, although there will be an actual place for this dwelling, not an ethereal, abstract existence espoused by some (previous poster). To answer the second part of the question—where is the Kingdom of God?—I'd say that it is not present now but we have the promise of God that he will one day build it and deliver it to his people. The earth now is subject to futility (Romans 8) and will not continue on in its present form, so that is why I personally see the kingdom as one coming, not already here. I'm thinking about what Peter says when he notes that the earth and all that is in it will be destroyed:

"But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

In addition, John's vision in Revelation 21 says the following:

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

John's perspective is similar to Peter's in that it is his understanding that the earth and the heavens as we know it will be destroyed and God will make a new dwelling place for him and his people—The New Jerusalem, which is to be given as a gift to his people, both Jew and Gentile alike.

To summarize question 1, the Kingdom of God is the place where God will dwell amongst his people and reign over them in glory. The coming Day of the Lord will bring God's justice to the ungodly and his mercy and salvation to the righteous, and he will bestow as a gift the kingdom to those who have waited patiently for it, with Christ as King.

In a sense, I think I have indirectly answered questions 2 & 3. The Old Testament foreshadowed the coming kingdom and you see it in the period of the Kings of Israel. However, the promise God made to David that through his seed would come one who would reign in righteousness, further proved that the Kingdom of God had not yet arrived. David understood that the Messiah would be this ruler and in Christ's day it was the anticipation of the people that Messiah would come. If the Kingdom of God were already present, why would the people be looking for their King? Not only that, but there was a complete destruction of the Kingdom of Israel and Israel had ceased to even be a nation until 1947.

Questions 4-5: I do not think there is any distinction between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God. Jesus used these terms interchangeably but he was referring to one and the same thing. The inevitable question is why is there a distinction then? Perhaps I can answer that at another time. But this is my answer to these questions thus far.

I enjoyed the questions and I am interested in hearing your thoughts on these things. I still owe you a response from another post concerning Judas.

Joe, If you recall Jesus can be quoted as saying "My Kingdom is Not of This World" (John 18:36)

And.. Jesus can also be quoted in saying
"Everyone of truth hereth My Voice" (John 18:37)

In scripture those that follow Christ and are baptized into the righteousness of new life with the Spirit are refer as children of God.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


And Peter never limited The Word of Christ to a certain people but to all nations. This is written in Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Acts 10:36 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all ) :)

Also, the contention is that the Kingdom of God is within us then the following verses are telling us to seek justice within?
Luke 12:31 But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his justice: and all these things shall be added unto you. 32 Fear not, little flock, for it hath pleased your...
Matt 6: 33 Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Be not therefore solicitous for to morrow;...

JoeT

We are to seek the Kingdom of God just as we are to seek Christ. The mind and soul of free will to seek and find. We are blessed in doing so, and have put on the armor needed in defense of evil here and now on earth. For the journey in life everafter is The Kingdom of God. (Jer 29:13 Matthew 7:7 Luke 11:9 )

First off we need to accept that the "Kingdom of God" in the NT is a mystery:

Mk 4:11-12
11 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,
"'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
And ever hearing but never understanding;
Otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'
NIV

The Greek word is : mysterion something being revealed.

Ro 16:25 - 1 Co 1:1

25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret for long ages 26 but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith - 27 to the only wise God be glory for evermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.
RSV

Job 11:7-9
7 "Can you fathom the mysteries of God?
Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
8 They are higher than the heavens — what can you do?
They are deeper than the depths of the grave-what can you know?
9 Their measure is longer than the earth
And wider than the sea.
NIV

HOWEVER, there was always partial revelation to God's people. In the OT they had part of the mystery of the kingdom of God but only by shadows and temporal things, i.e. the promised land, the temple, the sacrifices...


Dt 29:29
29 The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
NIV

Jesus taught much more and the apostles continue to proclaim the kingdom by God's word.

It is still a mystery and can't be defined beyond the word itself... beyond our getting a concordance and looking at each section which speaks of the kingdom.

Joe,
I am thinking that this refers to after Armageddon and after God establishes his kingdom here on earth.

As it stands today, God has done everything he can on the earth until the time of judgment. Then the New Heaven and Earth will be established. At that time he will be among his people just like in the days of Adam and Eve.

If I understand you correctly, we have a prophecy telling of the Son of David, the Messianic King, without an earthly Kingdom? Christ conquers death, and abandon’s his Kingdom? Surely you expect an earthly kingdom somewhere, without it Christ isn’t the Messiah.

JoeT

Thanks for writing. In my mind you've seem to have gotten it half right.


Hello, JoeT - these are my thoughts. What and where is the Kingdom of God? It is my belief that the Kingdom of God is the kingdom that God is in the process of building now through the redemption of his elect— "hagioi", also know as the called out ones or the holy (sanctified) ones. Ultimately, the kingdom itself is God dwelling amongst his people, although there will be an actual place for this dwelling, not an ethereal, abstract existence espoused by some (previous poster). To answer the second part of the question—where is the Kingdom of God?—I'd say that it is not present now but we have the promise of God that he will one day build it and deliver it to his people.

The earth now is subject to futility (Romans 8) and will not continue on in its present form, so that is why I personally see the kingdom as one coming, not already here. I'm thinking about what Peter says when he notes that the earth and all that is in it will be destroyed:

"But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

I can agree that the Kingdom of God is in the process of building. Romans 8 speaks to there not being condemnation to those justified in Christ, nor for those who don't walk according to the flesh, but walk in the spirit. God so loved his creation, finding it good, ordained that we conform to the image of His Son, “Firstborn amongst many brethren”
Romans 8 speaks to their not being condemnation to those justified in Christ, nor for those who don't walk according to the flesh, but walk in the spirit. God so loved his creation, finding it good, ordained that we conform to the image of His Son, “Firstborn amongst many brethren”

And Paul reinforces this thought, “Until we all meet into the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ: 14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive. 15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ:” (Eph 4:13-15)

Would you disagree that this could be done in God's Kingdom here on earth?


In addition, John's vision in Revelation 21 says the following:

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

John's perspective is similar to Peter's in that it is his understanding that the earth and the heavens as we know it will be destroyed and God will make a new dwelling place for him and his people—The New Jerusalem, which is to be given as a gift to his people, both Jew and Gentile alike.

To summarize question 1, the Kingdom of God is the place where God will dwell amongst his people and reign over them in glory. The coming Day of the Lord will bring God's justice to the ungodly and his mercy and salvation to the righteous, and he will bestow as a gift the kingdom to those who have waited patiently for it, with Christ as King.

Yes you've alluded to half the Kingdom, now where's the rest of it?
That there is a spiritual Kingdom of Heaven, I don't deny; but what of the King of Kings, the son of David, the Messiah? Christ can't be without him, and he can't be a king without a kingdom.

In a sense, I think I have indirectly answered questions 2 & 3. The Old Testament foreshadowed the coming kingdom and you see it in the period of the Kings of Israel. However, the promise God made to David that through his seed would come one who would reign in righteousness, further proved that the Kingdom of God had not yet arrived. David understood that the Messiah would be this ruler and in Christ's day it was the anticipation of the people that Messiah would come. If the Kingdom of God were already present, why would the people be looking for their King? Not only that, but there was a complete destruction of the Kingdom of Israel and Israel had ceased to even be a nation until 1947.

Questions 4-5: I do not think there is any distinction between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God. Jesus used these terms interchangeably but he was referring to one and the same thing. The inevitable question is why is there a distinction then? Perhaps I can answer that at another time. But this is my answer to these questions thus far.

Yes you've alluded to half the Kingdom, now where's the rest of it? Where is the Messianic King?


I enjoyed the questions and I am interested in hearing your thoughts on these things.

Thank you, I enjoy a good clean debate. You, as well as others, have always been willing to oblige.


I still owe you a response from another post concerning Judas.
I've forgotten, be sure and write some to jog my memory.

JoeT

Joe, If you recall Jesus can be quoted as saying "My Kingdom is Not of This World" (John 18:36)
And.. Jesus can also be quoted in saying
"Everyone of truth hereth My Voice" (John 18:37)

We still haven’t discussed the Old Testament “Kingdom of God” to any length and, with your permission, I’d like to hold this discussion until then.


In scripture those that follow Christ and are baptized into the righteousness of new life with the Spirit are refer as children of God.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

I’m not sure what your point is here. But, I understand the schoolmaster or tutor in Galatians to be a reference to the Law of Moses. It brings us to Christ as one who instills discipline in a youthful student. But, Christ closed the lessons of Mosses by fulfilling the Old Testament prophases for the Messianic King. The Old Testament Kingdom had to pass to the Gentiles so that the student once graduating through his baptism isn’t restrained by the tutor. “If a candle which gave light by night, kept us, when it became day, from the sun, it would not only not benefit, it would injure us; and so does the Law, if it stands between us and greater benefits. Those then are the greatest traducers of the Law, who still keep it, just as the tutor makes a youth ridiculous, by retaining him with himself, when time calls for his departure.” St. Chrysostom, Homily 3 on Galatians CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 3 on Galatians (Chrysostom) (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/23103.htm)


And Peter never limited The Word of Christ to a certain people but to all nations.

You wound me; I’ve gone out of my way to say something quite different. On another thread, I stated quite rightly that through “Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.” You may want to see exclusion in this, but it states something quite the opposite because, The Church also holds, “the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them [other churches and communities in Christ] as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church.” (Cf. Vatican II, Decree on Ecumenism, UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO, 21 November 1964) This is a far cry different from the rhetoric addressed at the Catholic Church, holding that Catholicism is paganism, demonism, etc…and thus its adherents doomed and damned.


This is written in Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Acts 10:36 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all ) :)

We are to seek the Kingdom of God just as we are to seek Christ. The mind and soul of free will to seek and find. We are blessed in doing so, and have put on the armor needed in defense of evil here and now on earth. For the journey in life everafter is The Kingdom of God. (Jer 29:13 Matthew 7:7 Luke 11:9 )

Let me end this by saying we have yet to discuss God’s promise to Moses; “If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” (Ex.19: 5, 6) Where or who is this Kingdom today?

Thank you for writing, I have enjoyed our conversations lately

JoeT

First off we need to accept that the "Kingdom of God" in the NT is a mystery:

Mk 4:11-12
11 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,
"'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'
NIV
The Greek word is : mysterion something being revealed.

Ro 16:25 - 1 Co 1:1

25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret for long ages 26 but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith - 27 to the only wise God be glory for evermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.
RSV

Job 11:7-9
7 "Can you fathom the mysteries of God?
Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
8 They are higher than the heavens — what can you do?
They are deeper than the depths of the grave-what can you know?
9 Their measure is longer than the earth
and wider than the sea.
NIV

While it is a mystery in terms of fully understanding in human terms, but that mystery was taught in the form of parables, “And when he was alone, the twelve that were with him asked him the parable. 11 And he said to them: To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God:” (Mark 4:10, 11). Consequently, there is some understanding of what the Kingdom of God is and we know the Apostles went out and taught this mystery.

We know Christ taught about the Kingdom of God. And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom: and healing all manner of sickness and every infirmity, among the people. (Matt 4:23) Do you suppose that nobody asked, well just what the Kingdom of God is? In fact couldn't we say that a component of his ministry was to teach of the Kingdom of God?

And the Apostles where sent out to teach about the Kingdom of God. How do you teach something about which you know nothing? “And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matt 10:7)

But in this verse God also stated a much overlooked fact, “for all the earth is mine.” Can we not say that all the earth belongs to God and as such is in the Kingdom?

HOWEVER, there was always partial revelation to God's people. In the OT they had part of the mystery of the kingdom of God but only by shadows and temporal things, i.e. the promised land, the temple, the sacrifices...

Dt 29:29
29 The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
NIV

Jesus taught much more and the apostles continue to proclaim the kingdom by God's word.

It is still a mystery and can't be defined beyond the word itself....beyond our getting a concordance and looking at each section which speaks of the kingdom.

And heal the sick that are therein and say to them: The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. (Luke 10:9)
It's my believe that what was being taught was about the priestly Kingdom God promised to Moses; “you shall be to me a priestly kingdom”

Let's extend this a bit further, wouldn't we say that all of the creation is God's Kingdom?

JoeT

Yes all creation is God's kingdom but also realize what Jesus said during his temptation
And what the Bible says about the principalities and powers of the air and the rulers of this world.

I agree with Jakester on everything he has said.

The kingdom is within the true believers and it is also something we look forward to.
Though now I look through the glass dimly one day I see face to face and this world grows strangely dim.

Joe:
Perhaps the answer that can offer conclusion to part of these questions is found in the frame work of fellowship known as Christianity. Eph 2: 19-22 offers us the idea that through the Holy Spirit, we together can build upon what will be for the habitation of God.

Eph 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

We still have to understand also that man of the Old Testment wanted what they could see, and it was their down fall. God permitted man to form leaders by land ownership which then became ruled by Kings. The New Testment brought change, yet the rulers were still the Kings of this earth. Revelation tells us that Christ will come as the prince ...1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[B]Christ is coming to claim the throne of David.. King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

1 Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Cr 15:24-27 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1 Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Do you suppose that nobody asked, well just what the Kingdom of God is? In fact couldn’t we say that a component of his ministry was to teach of the Kingdom of God?

You're exactly right, JoeT. The Kingdom figures prominently in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and was likely a question posed by the followers of John the Baptist. You're also quite right to say that


the Apostles went out and taught this mystery

Joe:
Perhaps the answer that can offer conclusion to part of these questions is found in the frame work of fellowship known as Christianity. Eph 2: 19-22 offers us the idea that through the Holy Spirit, we together can build upon what will be for the habitation of God.

Eph 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

It’s funny that you should use Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, I was looking at it to show that Christ intended to leave his Kingdom here on earth in the capable hands of Peter and the rest of the Apostles. The reason is clear, it’s in these verses of Ephesians where we see the depth of what John saw in Revelations chapter 1, “from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead and the prince of the kings of the earth, who hath loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father. “ (Rev 1:5,6)

Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners: but you are fellow citizens with the saints and the domestics of God: Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

These verses show the supporting elements of the Kingdom on earth, the apostles, the prophets, and Jesus Christ as the Corner stone. Even buildings today, we find the name of the owner, founder on the corner stone along with the date of completion. Some would say that Christ is the foundation on which our faith is based: and he is. But, he’s the foundation in the sense of its founder, not the foundation on which the structure is bound. The Roman Church holds that Christ is the founder on which Peter the stone foundation was placed. Through God’s grace, we are able to participate in the construction and occupation of the Kingdom.

In whom all the building, being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord. In whom you also are built together into an habitation of God in the Spirit.

This foundation is built on both Gentile and Jew; as well as the Apostles, the Prophets and its’ founder Christ. A union “framed together”, because “being many, are one bread, one body: all that partake of one bread." (Cf. 1 Cor 10:17). A universal Kingdom of God of one root, bound together in spirit of the cornerstons purpose.

And so we say “And hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father” inherited by default from the Jews, It was from the Sanhedrin that the power transferred given to a nation yielding the first fruit, Christ (Cf Matt 21:43). This Kingdom is fulfillment of God’s promise to Moses, to build a priestly Kingdom, and a holy nation. (Ex. 19:6)



JoeT

Joe,
I believe that the Kingdom of God on earth is different from the Kingdom in Heaven.
The Kingdom on earth is to be a refection of the one in heaven,
“Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"
I believe that the earthly kingdom is His Holy Church and it is located wherever followers gather in worship in the many Church buildings build because of the love of God all over the world and thus it is also in the hearts and souls of those worshipers.
I believe that we enter the Kingdom of God on earth and destined for heaven when we are baptized and confirmed in that Holy Church as members thereof.
The priestly Kingdom God told Moses would be his people I believe was later taken away and much later SOMEWHAT restored with the birth, baptism , and confirmation of the Highest of high priests, Jesus Christ, who is now king of heaven's AND earth's kingdom.
The earthly kingdom with him as supreme head has a prime minister (vicar) and earthly princes of that Church called Bishops.
I believe that the Holy Spirit was given as guide to the first princes and He still does so 2000 years later.
I believe that the members of that Kingdom are bothers and sisters of Christ the King and destined for heaven.
I hope and pray that none fall away and all make it to the Heavenly Kingdom where Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You're exactly right, JoeT. The Kingdom figures prominently in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and was likely a question posed by the followers of John the Baptist. You're also quite right to say that

I didn't have any special knowledge when I suggested that those listening to Christ would ask, “What is this Kingdom”. Instead I relied on plain ol' common sense. In Christ's day, just like it is among some circles today; teaching of such a Kingdom would have been unique – a kingdom partially spiritual and partially temporal. Occupied by three separate groups, those in the Church Militant, the Church Suffering, and the Church Triumphant, bound together in Christ.

What is good to know is that history proves out our humanity. But, here it comes, I'd really be interested in some references. I remember about ten years ago they put some of the Dead Sea Scrolls on line. Of course, I couldn't make heads or tails of them – it was all Greek to me!

JoeT

Joe,
I believe that the Kingdom of God on earth is different from the Kingdom in Heaven.
The Kingdom on earth is to be a refection of the one in heaven,
“Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"
I believe that the earthly kingdom is His Holy Church and it is located wherever followers gather in worship in the many Church buildings build because of the love of God all over the world and thus it is also in the hearts and souls of those worshipers.
I believe that we enter the Kingdom of God on earth and destined for heaven when we are baptized and confirmed in that Holy Church as members thereof.
The priestly Kingdom God told Moses would be his people I believe was later taken away and much later SOMEWHAT restored with the birth, baptism , and confirmation of the Highest of high priests, Jesus Christ, who is now king of heaven's AND earth's kingdom.
The earthly kingdom with him as supreme head has a prime minister (vicar) and earthly princes of that Church called Bishops.
I believe that the Holy Spirit was given as guide to the first princes and He still does so 2000 years later.
I believe that the members of that Kingdom are bothers and sisters of Christ the King and destined for heaven.
I hope and pray that none fall away and all make it to the Heavenly Kingdom where Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I think we’re running a parallel race, Fred. I don’t know that I can prove it, but I don't hold that the earthly Kingdom of God is supposed to be a paradise in a temporal sense. That is, not until the end of time when the Kingdom of Heaven is brought to earth. Nor, do I believe there are two Kingdoms, in the way of a division between heaven and earth, instead spiritually ONE; a Kingdom of God’s universal creation.

JoeT

JoeT777,
I agree,
But the problem with the Dead Sea Scrolls is the same with the bible.
Those who read and study them are of different ideas and interpretations of them.
Part of the problem is that they are all fragments.
From what I understand none are complete.
A lot of information on them is available at this site:
Educational Site: Dead Sea Scrolls (http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/dead_sea_scrolls/)
Peace and kindness,
Fred

JoeT777,
I agree,
But the problem with the Dead Sea Scrolls is the same with the bible.
Those who read and study them are of different ideas and interpretations of them.
Part of the problem is that they are all fragments.
From what I understand none are complete.
A lot of information on them is available at this site:
Educational Site: Dead Sea Scrolls (http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/dead_sea_scrolls/)
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thanks Fred, that's great. You do know that one chapter in Matthew tells us that on one day Christ read the book of Isaiah (I think) and then went out and preached the Kingdom. It’s interesting that the first thing I see on this site is a pesher (commentary) of Isaiah. It might give me some idea of how the Jewish community viewed Isaiah to understand what Christ meant about His Kingdom. - you never know, I might even learn something.

JoeT

I'll have to get back to you with some Dead Sea Scroll references (I seem to have left it in my office--at last, I hope that's where it is, because it isn't here!). In the meantime you can have a look at:

The Psalms of Solomon (which are similar to the Dead Sea Scroll hymns). Written between 63 and 45 BC.

The Testament of Moses (2nd century BC).

The Psalms of Solomon are especially relevant. There's been some really good work on Jewish apocalyptic literature and early Christianity. You might want to have a look at James VanderKam and Adela Yarbro Collins if you get some time. (VanderKam is a leading Dead Sea Scroll scholar.) There's a good book, edited by VanderKam and William Adler, The Jewish Apocalyptic Heritage in Early Christianity. There's particularly good stuff in there on Enoch (which was part of the early Christian canon) and its massive influence on the NT and early Fathers.

I'll get back to you with more tomorrow.

Thanks Fred, that's great. You do know that one chapter in Matthew tells us that on one day Christ read the book of Isaiah (I think) and then went out and preached the Kingdom. It’s interesting that the first thing I see on this site is a pesher (commentary) of Isaiah. It might give me some idea of how the Jewish community viewed Isaiah to understand what Christ meant about His Kingdom. - ya never know, I might even learn something.

JoeT

Fred is right: The DDS are hard to sift through. But, as you say, they give us a lot of insight into the Jewish milieu at the time of Christ's ministry. There was also quite a bit of friction between early Johannine communities and followers of John the Baptist. Raymond Brown's The Community of the Beloved Disciple is quite useful. All this stuff is crucially important for understanding the ways in which the NT talks about the Kingdom. It's intricate, but really illuminating.

JoeT777,
If you do learn something new to you, PLEASE share it here with a new thread.
I'll watch for it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Akoue,
I'll be looking forward to what you can share with Joe and the rest of us on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

In today's gospel Jesus in speaking of the coming Kingdom of God.
Today's Gospel (Mt 4,12-17.23-25): When Jesus heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee. He left Nazareth and went to settle down in Capernaum, a town by the lake of Galilee, at the border of Zebulun and Naphtali. In this way the word of the prophet Isaiah was fulfilled: «Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali crossed by the Road of the Sea, and you who live by the Jordan, Galilee, land of pagans, listen: The people who lived in darkness have seen a great light; on those who live in the land of the shadow of death, a light has shone».

From that time on Jesus began to proclaim his message, «Change your ways: the kingdom of heaven is near». Jesus went around all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the Kingdom, and curing all kinds of sickness and disease among the people. The news about him spread through the whole of Syria, and the people brought all their sick to him, and all those who suffered: the possessed, the deranged, the paralyzed, and he healed them all. Large crowds followed him from Galilee and the Ten Cities, from Jerusalem, Judea, and from across the Jordan.
I think that He is referring to the Church (assembly of bishops) He would soon establish.
What do you think?
What else do you see in this lesson?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

In today's gospel Jesus in speaking of the coming Kingdom of God.
Today's Gospel (Mt 4,12-17.23-25): When Jesus heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee. He left Nazareth and went to settle down in Capernaum, a town by the lake of Galilee, at the border of Zebulun and Naphtali. In this way the word of the prophet Isaiah was fulfilled: «Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali crossed by the Road of the Sea, and you who live by the Jordan, Galilee, land of pagans, listen: The people who lived in darkness have seen a great light; on those who live in the land of the shadow of death, a light has shone».

From that time on Jesus began to proclaim his message, «Change your ways: the kingdom of heaven is near». Jesus went around all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the Kingdom, and curing all kinds of sickness and disease among the people. The news about him spread through the whole of Syria, and the people brought all their sick to him, and all those who suffered: the possessed, the deranged, the paralyzed, and he healed them all. Large crowds followed him from Galilee and the Ten Cities, from Jerusalem, Judea, and from across the Jordan.
I think that He is referring to the Church (assembly of bishops) He would soon establish.
What do you think?
What else do you see in this lesson?
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred:
We do see the beginnings of the selection of the Twelve in this chapter, a hierarchy is definitely being established. But, I think what’s more important for this topic is that there appears to be a sea change in the mindset of the “Kingdom”; from near to present.

In all of Matthew we see the Kingdom mentioned in every chapter except Chapters 1, 2, 17, 27 & 28; at least in some form. In chapter 3 it is a near at hand thing. In chapter 4 we have two different types of Kingdom’s mention; a very clear rendition of temporal kingdoms ruled by men, and the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is indicated as being near at hand only once, in verse 17. However, in verse 23, it is discussed as if it were present. In the remaining chapters of Matthew, for the most part, we see a discussion of the Kingdom as if it were present. I’ve drawn the conclusion, and it may be because of my Catholic prejudices, that we are seeing a Kingdom that was once “near” to one that is present. In either event there is no denying that teaching of the Kingdom was an important part of Christ’s ministry. At the very least Matthew considered the idea of a Kingdom paramount.

What do you think?

JoeT

JoeT777,
I think that there are two kingdoms spiritually linked.
Before he became man, Jesus was The Word in the kingdom of heaven.
I believe that Kingdom is eternal (had no beginning and has no end to which he added angels and saints) but those of us who are saved are members of the Kingdom of God on earth who become the members of the Heavenly Kingdom.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

In today's gospel Jesus in speaking of the coming Kingdom of God.
Today's Gospel (Mt 4,12-17.23-25): When Jesus heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee. He left Nazareth and went to settle down in Capernaum, a town by the lake of Galilee, at the border of Zebulun and Naphtali. In this way the word of the prophet Isaiah was fulfilled: «Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali crossed by the Road of the Sea, and you who live by the Jordan, Galilee, land of pagans, listen: The people who lived in darkness have seen a great light; on those who live in the land of the shadow of death, a light has shone».

From that time on Jesus began to proclaim his message, «Change your ways: the kingdom of heaven is near». Jesus went around all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the Kingdom, and curing all kinds of sickness and disease among the people. The news about him spread through the whole of Syria, and the people brought all their sick to him, and all those who suffered: the possessed, the deranged, the paralyzed, and he healed them all. Large crowds followed him from Galilee and the Ten Cities, from Jerusalem, Judea, and from across the Jordan.
I think that He is referring to the Church (assembly of bishops) He would soon establish.
What do you think?
What else do you see in this lesson?
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,
I think this should be in a new thread. Does not really coinside with the OP's question.

Joe, I would first say my refer is that of the Kings James Version. And the scripture which I have shown in the posts example
Revelation 1:5-6 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[B]Christ made us kings and priest unto God. ( God's representative or viceregent ) So we are a priestly kingdom or a kingdom like Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:


Again in Revelations 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


These verses go on to say,It is Christ who Revelation 5:12 spoken of being the Lamb being WORTHY.. to receive power, riches wisdom strength honour glory and blessings.

AND Note the chief corner stone in bold text in the following verses of Ephesians
Eph 2:19 Therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

In Luke 17 you can read how the Pharisees asked Jesus by hostle demand when the Kingdom of God should come. Jesus replied the Kingdom is within the mist of you.
The same type of refer is shown in Matthew and John when it is acknowledged that with the intervention of the Spirit, the Kingdom of God is within the mist of you.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

I believe scripture is telling us that God's Kingdom is in the mist of the Holy Spirit.

`child of God

450donn
I should have thought of that
Fred

Joe, I would first say my refer is that of the Kings James Version. And the scripture which I have shown in the posts example
Revelation 1:5-6 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[B]Christ made us kings and priest unto God. (God's representative or vice-regent) So we are a priestly kingdom or a kingdom like Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

No, I don't think so. Try reading it again. Reading verses 4 through 8 we see that the speaker is Christ. If we assume that the speaker is John, then we have a problem. And it arises in verse 8; “I am the Alpha and Omega … “ We know that John is not the Α or Ω (the beginning and the end). The 'us' is the person(s), (or spirit(s) - presumably Christ), from which John received the message. Christ has done these things; he's washed our sins, made a Kingdom which contains priests – but we aren't priests unless we've had hands laid on us. Do you not see the resemblance to Ex 19:6, “And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation

I think the Douay-Rheims makes this clearer; “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead and the prince of the kings of the earth, who hath loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father.” From Christ, who is the witness, prince of earthly kings, has made us a Kingdom. The Kingdom is made of all of us – no distinction between heavenly and earthly occupants. Furthermore (or AND) this Kingdom contains priests to God.


Again in Revelations 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

These are the saints in heaven, the Church Triumphant, offering to Christ prayers. The Douay-Rheims renders vese 10;” And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.” Again, a reference back to the promises made to Moses in Ex 19:6.



These verses go on to say,It is Christ who Revelation 5:12 spoken of being the Lamb being WORTHY.. to receive power, riches wisdom strength honour glory and blessings.

Agreed, in verses 11 through 14 we hear thousands and thousands of voices of the Church Triumphant praising Christ.


AND Note the chief corner stone in bold text in the following verses of Ephesians
Eph 2:19 Therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Please refer back to my comments made yesterday (link) (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/kingdom-god-299202-2.html#post1469219) The meaning behind "corner stone" has been understood down through the ages with those who are in the industry.


In Luke 17 you can read how the Pharisees asked Jesus by hostle demand when the Kingdom of God should come. Jesus replied the Kingdom is within the midst of you.

A Pharisee is one of a large group of Hebrews. Christ is saying that the Kingdom is within your group of Hebrews. Why? Again the Jewish nation considered itself the Kingdom of God as was promised to Moses. At the time, Christ's church was not considered separate from Judaism. Thus the Kingdom is within the nation of Jews.


The same type of refer is shown in Matthew and John when it is acknowledged that with the intervention of the Spirit, the Kingdom of God is within the mist of you.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

I believe scripture is telling us that God's Kingdom is in the mist of the Holy Spirit.

`child of God

That's a far stretch. John is clearly referring to Christ. Because in the next verse we see that John the Baptist say, “The same is he that shall come after me, who is preferred before me: the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to loose;” A verse traditionally (anybody's tradition) understood to be a reference to Christ.

Persevering,

JoeT

Joe,
You point to 450donn was well made.
According to donn's post Where on earth is the Kingdom Jesus said he was going to establish or did He abandon that intent?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

No, I don't think so. Try reading it again. Reading verses 4 through 8 we see that the speaker is Christ. If we assume that the speaker is John, then we have a problem. And it arises in verse 8; “I am the Alpha and Omega … “ We know that John is not the Α or Ω (the beginning and the end). The 'us' is the person(s), (or spirit(s) - presumably Christ), from which John received the message. Christ has done these things; he's washed our sins, made a Kingdom which contains priests – but we aren't priests unless we've had hands laid on us. Do you not see the resemblance to Ex 19:6, “And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation


JoeT

Take the verse Revelation 1:11 which does indeed confirm the message was given to John by Christ. John was to write down and deliver this message to the seven churches.. John was in the ( Spirit realm) according to verse 10 when he was in the mist of Christ, and he saw what was being shown to him and told to write it down.

Rev 1:11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

So we can go back to verse 1:4 and read "quote John to the seven churches" It is John's delivery to the seven church the message from Christ. Verse 1:11 explains where John received the message from Christ. And verse 4 saying from HIM meaning Christ"] The wording unto you, means in the mist of you from Christ.. which was, means it was given to John... which is to come, means John's deliver of this message.

To end the 4th verse the last line also tells us, this message also comes from the seven Spirits which are before the His throne, meaning the seven eyes refer in 5:12 power, riches, wisdom, strength, honour, glory, and blessing. [/B]

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

[B]Now verse 5 goes on to say.. And (also) from Jesus Christ, who is Faithful Witness...ect

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the Prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[B]John is talking to the seven churches andthey are told that Christ made them all to be kings and priests in the mist of His Father which to "THE FATHER" be glory and dominion forever and ever Amen..

Originally Posted by sndbay
Again in Revelations 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


These are the saints in heaven, the Church Triumphant, offering to Christ prayers. The Douay-Rheims renders vese 10;” And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.” Again, a reference back to the promises made to Moses in Ex 19:6.

JoeT

This book of Revelation remains to be John's visit to the Spiritual realm and it is what John was told to write down.. Revelation means to reveal... This revealed truth is what John was shown of The Lords Day.. (Revelation 5:2 And I saw is John seeing) verse after verse is John saying I saw, I beheld, I heard, I looked

Revelation 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

Originally Posted by sndbay
In Luke 17 you can read how the Pharisees asked Jesus by hostle demand when the Kingdom of God should come. Jesus replied the Kingdom is within the midst of you.




A Pharisee is one of a large group of Hebrews. Christ is saying that the Kingdom is within your group of Hebrews. Why? Again the Jewish nation considered itself the Kingdom of God as was promised to Moses. At the time, Christ's church was not considered separate from Judaism. Thus the Kingdom is within the nation of Jews.

JoeT

The Pharisee are Jews ...
The Jews spoke hebrew language.... Saul /Paul was a Jew that became a chosen vessel by God.... The Jews of Judah kept their Hebrew brothers and sisters from others tribes as slaves which was against God's wishes.... The Jews did not accept Christ or His teachings.... The Jews wanted Christ died.

Luke 17:20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal
With God.

John 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for He would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

Note that no one amount the people at the feast dared to speak of Christ... Ask yourself who were the people at the feast? Were these people that feared the Jews also the people who follow Christ?
John 7:13 Howbeit no man spake openly of Him for fear of the Jews.

Getting back to what Jesus said to the Pharisee "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation" So the kingdom was not something seen by the eye of man "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! " but rather it was Jesus who said for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Again not seen but within you ... I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit is with us. The Holy Spirit was with Christ.. The Kingdom of God is the realm of Spiritual connection that is in the mist of the fellowship that walks in Christ here on earth.


Romans 8:14-15 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father

1 Corinthian 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

John 16:7-14

sndbay,
At the time Jesus said that the Kingdom could not be observed, it could not be seen.
BUT...
After he established His Church on earth it could be and is observable with priests and bishops world wide.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Joe This is the way I see The Kingdom of God. When Jesus came and died on the
Cross He made way for the Holy Spirit, that activates the creative word and relates, it
That which is created. He inspired the Scriptures and empowers God's people. He takes the things of Jesus and brings them to our remembrance. "John 16:8 tells us that
He convicts the world "of sin, and righteousness, and of judgment." All three persons
of the Godhead are eternal and has existed forever. Always the Father loved the Son and the Son loved and served the Father. From that relationship the Spirit of God
{ Holy Spirt ] came into being. They all three have existed from before there was
anything that could begin, three distinct Persons all functioning as one. They all work together to bring about the Kingdom od God. The Father the Creator the first the
cause of everything. Primary thought of what has been and will be created.
The Son the expresson of God, the "only begotten" of the Father. read John 14:9
The Son of God is our redeemer and agent of our creation. The Holy Spirit
who brings us all truth to us and activates the creative word. I am telling you this
because you need to understand and know the beginning before you can understand the
Kingdom of God, and how to get there. At Jesus baptism the Father spoke from
heaven, the Son was fulfilling all righteousness and the Spirit descended upon the
Son like a dove. Matthew 3:16. All three persons of the Trinity were present.
We will understand the Trinity more clearly some day. The Godhead work together
they are all One but three persons doing their work for the Kingdom.We
must be borned again of the spirit to see the Kingdom of God. John 3:3
Our first birth was our human birth. The second birth was when we received Jesus to cleanse
from our sin and making Him the Lord of our life. This enables us individual to be
re-created and joined with God's Spirit the Holy Spirit.
This enable us to have the spiritual vision necessary to see and enter the Kingdom of God. When we are born again we can see God and be part of it, But Gods Kingdom
is only for spiritual beings. Paul said "The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to Him: nor can he know them, because they
Are spiritually discerned. 1Cor.2:4 So access to this kingdom is gained only though
The new birth by the Spirit of God. The Kingdom of God is eternal. It is a place where
All Christians ultimately will dwell. At this time it is an invisible Kingdom in our midst.
Wherever there are those who honor the King, and wherever the Spirit of the King is,
There is the Kingdom od God. The Kingdom of God is with in us, and that gives us His
Power to His work and overcome satan in our life. There is a heaven we will go to
When our work is finish where we will have new bodies we will have total communication
And fellowship " He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away ever tear from their eyes
there shall be no more death, nor sorrow nor crying; and there shall be no more pain, for
the former things have all passed away." Rev21:3-4

Maggie 3,
That is interesting.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on it.
But as you know from my precious posts on this I believe that there is an eternal heavenly Kingdom of God and a temporal Kingdom of God on this planet.
Also that they are spiritually connected.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
At the time Jesus said that the Kingdom could not be observed, it could not be seen.
BUT....
After he established His Church on earth it could be and is observable with priests and bishops world wide.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Fred, First let me say it is nice to hear from you directly..
Christ was raised to heaven, and the Holy Spirit was to come ( John 16:7-14 ) So the presence of God is always with us through the Holy Spirit.

Now if you read the scripture in Ephesians, we are not strangers or foreigners to the knowledge of Christ, because we have fellowship with the saints known within the house of God. And this fellowship was built upon the foundation of the apostles, with Christ being the corner stone. That is why Christ is the Rock. Within this fellowship known within God's house gathering unto the Lord, we grow into a holy temple that is constructed for an habitation of God = "The Holy Spirit"

Eph 2:19 Therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

We understand that where two or more are gathered together the Lord is with us.."The Holy Spirit"
John the Baptists said it well, John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
He is saying one standeth among you who you do not see by sight. This is faith... we are to believe.

The Holy Spirit was with Christ when he walked the earth. The Holy Spirit is with us in Newness of Life/Baptism..

Can our minds be deceived from the simplicity of Christ? I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.(Jhn 14:6)
For we walk by faith, not by sight ( 2 Cr 5:7)

sndbay,
Thanks, I agree with some of what you said...
But...
It is clear that Jesus was talking to Peter when He called Simon "Peter" the rock on which Jesus would build his assembly (Church) and Jesus gave Peter the keys to His kingdom.
It had a spiritual connection for Jesus told Peter that what he loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven and what was bound on earth would be bound in heaven.
There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus is the corner stone of The Church He built on the Rock of Peter.
Thus Jesus along with the Holy Spirit are always with that Church.
It is Jesus Christ's bride on earth.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Maggie, sndbay, et al:


Joe this is the way I see The Kingdom of God. When Jesus came and died on the cross He made way for the Holy Spirit, that activates the creative word and relates, it that which is created. He inspired the Scriptures and empowers God's people. He takes the things of Jesus and brings them to our remembrance. "John 16:8 tells us that He convicts the world "of sin, and righteousness, and of judgment." All three persons of the Godhead are eternal and has existed forever. Always the Father loved the Son and the Son loved and served the Father. From that relationship the Spirit of God {Holy Spirit] came into being. They all three have existed from before there was anything that could begin, three distinct Persons all functioning as one. They all work together to bring about the Kingdom od God. The Father the Creator the first the cause of everything. Primary thought of what has been and will be created.


I appreciate the hard work this response reflects, But, I don’t see how a discussion on the Trinity is relevant to the ‘Kingdom.’ If the next paragraph was to make the connection, I missed it.


The Son the expression of God, the "only begotten" of the Father. read John 14:9 The Son of God is our redeemer and agent of our creation. The Holy Spirit who brings us all truth to us and activates the creative word. I am telling you this because you need to understand and know the beginning before you can understand the Kingdom of God, and how to get there. At Jesus baptism the Father spoke from heaven, the Son was fulfilling all righteousness and the Spirit descended upon the Son like a dove. Matthew 3:16. All three persons of the Trinity were present. We will understand the Trinity more clearly some day. The Godhead work together they are all One but three persons doing their work for the Kingdom. We must be borne again of the spirit to see the Kingdom of God. John 3:3. Our first birth was our human birth. The second birth was when we received Jesus to cleanse from our sin and making Him the Lord of our life. This enables us individual to be re-created and joined with God's Spirit the Holy Spirit.

I believe in Christ, the incarnate Word, who is the Second person of the Trinity. He doesn’t bring truth, rather He IS Truth.

I realize I need to know the beginning of the Kingdom of God, but you haven’t made the argument here. I agree that baptism is entrance into the Kingdom. When Christ was baptized would he not have entered the Kingdom. Then wasn’t the Kingdom on earth when Christ walked the earth? When did it leave? Why did the Apostles continue to teach about the Kingdom after his death if the Kingdom ascended to heaven? If the Kingdom ascended into heaven then why in the end times are we told that, “The kingdom of this world is become our Lord's and his Christ's, and he shall reign for ever and ever. Amen.” Apoc 11:15 If this Kingdom presented to God is OF THE WORLD at the end of time, would we not expect to see it today.



This enable us to have the spiritual vision necessary to see and enter the Kingdom of God. When we are born again we can see God and be part of it, But Gods Kingdom is only for spiritual beings. Paul said "The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to Him: nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Cor.2:4. So access to this kingdom is gained only though the new birth by the Spirit of God. The Kingdom of God is eternal. It is a place where all Christians ultimately will dwell. At this time it is an invisible Kingdom in our midst. Wherever there are those who honor the King, and wherever the Spirit of the King is, there is the Kingdom God. The Kingdom of God is within us, and that gives us His power to His work and overcome satan in our life. There is a heaven we will go to when our work is finish where we will have new bodies we will have total communication and fellowship " He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away ever tear from their eyes there shall be no more death, nor sorrow nor crying; and there shall be no more pain, for the former things have all passed away." Rev21:3-4


The Kingdom of God is both spiritual as well as earthly. If we are born again in the vein of Nicodemus we are being baptized, at this time we enter into the Kingdom, “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost [baptism], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

What of the Kingdom of God in the Old Testament? Does it still exist in the form of Jewish nation? Then is there a Kingdom of God for the Jews, and a Kingdom of God that belongs to Christ and a Kingdom of Heaven? Now we’re up to three kingdoms.

JoeT

JoeT777,
That is an interesting thought that The Jews may have a separate Kingdom of God.
Right now I think not.
But there are theologians who believe that the Jews have a separate salvation that do Christians.
In that case there MAY be a third Kingdom of God just for them.
It is a question that now I must ponder on more.
Thanks,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

JoeT777
Now THAT is an interesting thought, that there may be three Kingdoms of God including one for the Jews.
Personally I don't think that there is one for them separately.
I think that their Kingdom was transformed to that of Christ the King.
Some theologians believe that the Jews have a separate salvation than that of Christians.
In that case perhaps there MAY be a third Kingdom of God for them.
It is a question for me now to ponder more about.

Different ways to heaven and Christ are deceptions! Opah talks of this type of deception in what she believes. It is wrong!

Remember what Paul feared:( 2 Cr 5:7)
With prayer and faith, lovingly we remain in Christ' strength and can not be deceived. And we avoid what Paul spoke of in fear ---> 2 Cr 11:2-3 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Acknowledge the simplicity of Christ being in 1. His voice (Jhn 10:27); 2. I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.(Jhn 14:6); 3. For we walk by faith, not by sight

Otherwise you are trying to serve two masters which can not be done.. Matthew 6:24; Luke16:13

The Rock is Christ, any other would be the church doing as Paul feared...
Not being as a virgin to the wedding of Christ..

Looking in the mist of another is a trespass against Christ, and Him being the groom to the bride.

And the Church is married to Christ .. Right?

sndbay,

There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus is the corner stone of The Church He built on the Rock of Peter.

Thus Jesus along with the Holy Spirit are always with that Church.

It is Jesus Christ's bride on earth.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

As the bride of Christ the church can not commit adualtary... It can not service two masters or two husbands.
Peter himself is shown to say in scripture: I am a man also!

Acts 10:25-26 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

And we must remember that Deu 31 says that the Song of Moses was written to bear witness against what would be taught that is false.. Deu 32 we find the Song of Moses...

sndbay,
I told you what I believe and I continue to stand by that.
It is clear that Jesus was talking to and about Peter being The Rock.
Thanks anyway,
Fred

Joe I will try to say this in away you can understand. You can
not separate the trinity, the Godhead or the kingdon of God. Let me say this, I am a
wife, mother and teacher, I just told you what I am. This is how I see the Kingdom of God. God is three persons in one, and God being God does not tell us every little
detail but He does teaches us what we need to know if we keep seeking, and are born again to receive it. When you enter the Kingdon of God you need the Father, Son
and Holy Spirit. This is what the kingdom of God is. When Jesus died on the cross
His physical body died, His spirit did not die. He rose from the dead in a spiritual
body that His followers could recognize. God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit can not be killed off or separated. You can not change God's ways or add to or take away, being a
child of God is being obedient then we can live in the Kingdom of God .It is sin that
keeps us separated from God. Joe have you been born again? If not the spirit cannot teach you His ways , Our eyes are open when we are born again and then we are able to see the truth.

Let me know if this helps you.

Maggie 3

Maggie 3,
Good post of sorts.
Jesus rose with a glorified body like we will have in heaven.
Jesus could and did eat, He could be touched. He could also pass though locked doors and appear many miles away almost instantly.
That is what His glorified body could do.
I think that Joe was born again of spirit and water as the bible says.
Yes the Godhead is three persons in one and inseparable. I think Joe knows that.
Another way of trying to understand the trinity is the fact that we all are a trinity of body, mind and spirit which each has a different task but they all work together.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thanks Fred, you are right about Jesus and His glorified body, want it be great when we have ours. We will keep on working for the Lord until He comes. The more I learn of Him
The joy grows. Ever so ofen I tell my husband, I love the lord so much I can hardly stand it, and that the way it goes with me!

Maggie 3

Joe I will try to say this in away you can understand. You can
not separate the trinity, the Godhead or the kingdon of God. Let me say this, I am a
wife, mother and teacher, I just told you what I am. This is how I see the Kingdom of God. God is three persons in one, and God being God does not tell us every little
detail but He does teaches us what we need to know if we keep seeking, and are born again to receive it. When you enter the Kingdon of God you need the Father, Son
and Holy Spirit. This is what the kingdom of God is. When Jesus died on the cross
His physical body died, His spirit did not die. He rose from the dead in a spiritual
body that His followers could recognize. God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit can not be killed off or separated. You can not change God's ways or add to or take away, being a
child of God is being obedient then we can live in the Kingdom of God .It is sin that
keeps us separated from God. Joe have you been born again? If not the spirit cannot teach you His ways , Our eyes are open when we are the Real Presence of Christ making us able to see the truth.

Let me know if this helps you.

Maggie 3

Yes, thank you for asking. I am “born again” through baptism where, as an infant, I received one of many graces of faith. In cooperation with this grace, and combined with my life's experience, it has taught me perseverance in fear and trembling of Chist's promise of redemptions. (Cf. Phil 2:12) Have you received the real presence of Christ? Its only here do we come to live in Christ. (Cf John 6:55-59) Without the real presence of Christ the spirit cannot teach you His ways, our eyes are open when we are born again and then we are able to see the truth.

JoeT

Joe,
Very good answer.
In my case I have often partaken of the real body and blood of Christ.
It gives me great joy and thankfulness that Jesus has provided that way to become one with Him.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thank you Joe and Fred. When we experience the love and joy
Of the Lord it strengthens us to overcome our trials in life. We can understand what
Kept the Lord and His followers going, though all the pain and suffering they endured.
There is power and strength in His love and joy . This is why in Matthew 22:36-40
"Teacher, which is the greatest Commandement In the law ? "
Jesus said to them, " you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind." " This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like it: " you shall love your neighbor as yourself. All the law and the prophets hang on these 2 commandments." Love always brings joy. This sounds like the Kingdom of God to me.

Maggie 3

Maggie 3,
Yes I do believe that love is greatly in all Kingdoms of God on heaven and earth.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thank you Joe and Fred. When we experience the love and joy
of the Lord it strengthens us to overcome our trials in life. We can understand what
kept the Lord and His followers going, though all the pain and suffering they endured.
There is power and strength in His love and joy . This is why in Matthew 22:36-40
"Teacher, which is the greatest Commandement In the law ? "
Jesus said to them, " you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind." " This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like it: " you shall love your neighbor as yourself. All the law and the prophets hang on these 2 commandments." Love always brings joy. This sounds like the Kingdom of God to me.

Maggie 3

Thanks for your kind words Maggie. Humm, you did know I’m Catholic? But, you can’t take’m back now; it’s too late.

My comments here should have reflected that, and should explain why I believe Christ’s Kingdom is here on earth. We call it the Catholic Church.

JoeT

JoeT777,
Yes, from your many posts it could, should, have been obvious.
The same for me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I thought you were, Joe and Fred. I go to a spirit filled,
Non-denominational church and have for over 30 years and have learned so much.
My husband was raised in the catholic church and we have friends that attend there.
I know the Lord looks at the heart and not the name of a church. We all need
Each other to learn, no one knows it all, but God does. "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding" Pro.3-5 As we trust in God with all our heart, we will be able to keep on working in health and happiness for long years
To come. I am 77 years young and on pastoral care at our church. My husband will be
83 in April and is a chaplain at our hospital here in town. Our joy in life is serving
The Lord. " In Him we live, move, and have our being". Acts17-28
"I can do all things though Christ which strengthenenth me." Phil 4-13
"Thou shalt guide me with Thy counsel, and afterward receive me to Glory" PS. 73-24
We are working for the glory of the Lord, in the Kingdom of God. Bless you

Maggie 3

Maggie 3,
Good for you. I'm happy for you and your husband.
I'll be 77 in February and I also serve the Lord as best I can.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

“Christ established the kingdom of God on earth, manifested His Father and Himself by deeds and words, and completed His work by His death, resurrection and glorious Ascension and by the sending of the Holy Spirit.” Dei Verbum V 17

1. What and where is the Kingdom of God?
2. Do we see it in the Old Testament? Does it differ between the Old Testament and the New Testament?
3. How and when do we enter the Kingdom of God?
4. Do you understand the “Kingdom of God” to be the same as “Kingdom of Heaven?”
5. Or do you hold the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God to be two different Kingdoms?

Feel free to answerer one or more of the above.

JoeT

Excellent question Joe!

I've been struggling with it since you posted it several weeks ago.

I mostly struggled with #2. I'll answer 1, 3-5 first.


1. What and where is the Kingdom of God?

There are several answers to this one. First, the Kingdom of God is within us. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit, therefore each of us is the Kingdom of God.

Two, the Kingdom of God is the Church. The Church is the Household of God and God is King. Therefore, the Kingdom of God is the Church.

Three, the Kingdom of God is in Heaven, where God reigns.


3. How and when do we enter the Kingdom of God?

In Baptism:

We are Baptized into the family of God and thererfore into His Kingdom.


4. Do you understand the “Kingdom of God” to be the same as “Kingdom of Heaven?”

Yes, to some extent. The prayer says, "Your Kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Therefore the Kingdom of Heaven is the Kingdom of God in a way in which it isn't on earth. See number 1 above.


5. Or do you hold the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God to be two different Kingdoms?

They are different only in the sense that those in heaven have already been made perfect.


2. Do we see it in the Old Testament? Does it differ between the Old Testament and the New Testament?

It differs in what it achieves. In the Old Testament, circumcision made us children of Abraham.

In the New Testament, Baptism makes us children of God, brothers of Jesus.

Sincerely,

Excellent question Joe!

I've been struggling with it since you posted it several weeks ago.

I mostly struggled with #2.



Hi Juan:

I thought I had explained, but it turns out I didn't – and I think my reading connects the Old Testament with the New as well as connecting us with God through Christ. The importance of “God's Kingdom” is that it is a direct connection with the Divine by which we are “ruled” by our faith and love of God. I like to make that connection this way:

We take God's Word as being immutable. Consequently, when God promises Moses a Kingdom we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand because it's Old Teastament and the law doesn't apply to the New Covenant. Moses is told, “If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” (Ex.19: 5, 6), which is the Old Testament equivalent of Matt 16:18. The promise made to Moses is an integral part of the Old Testament. The Jewish Kingdom was both a spiritual and temporal Kingdom with a priestly heresiarch; the Jews were to be governed by their priests.

Christ didn't overturn this Kingdom by creating a new one; in fact He couldn't because His ministry was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, which included the Messianic Kingdom along with the prophecies for a new King. To overthrow this Kingdom would have been to over throw himself – which of course is nonsense. However what Christ was to do was to turn over the 'Key' of the Kingdom to a new tenant, what is today and the gentile Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church. Which is the reason that in Matthew, we hear Christ say, “I say to you [the Pharisees] that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.” This too is a pronouncement of on Mt. Sinai. Its here we see Christ conquering the world in the Messianic vision of David; but instead of “nation building” it is “Kingdom” building.

Your opinion is valued, so how does this fit with your understanding of Scripture.

JoeT

Yes, to some extent. The prayer says, "Your Kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Therefore the Kingdom of Heaven is the Kingdom of God in a way in which it isn't on earth. See number 1 above.

,
DeMaria do we agree --->To the extent that the Kingdom of Heaven is as Matthew 22:2 brings to mind. "inheriting", or as being "heirs of the Kingdom"

Matthew 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

And here on earth God's Kingdom would be with the Holy Spirit within each individual, known as children of God.. Obedience and righteousness (baptized to Newness of Life ) gifted with the Holy Spirit and dead in Christ.
The names and appellatives of "the Church" are never used of the Kingdom (Eph. 1:23; 2:21; 4:4, 16; 5:30. Col. 1:24. 1Tim. 3:15). The privilege of "that Church" which consists of the partakers of "a heavenly calling", Heb. 3:1
Rev. 20:4-6, will be to reign with Christ over the earthly Kingdom, whereas that Kingdom will be "under the whole heaven" (Dan. 7:27).

Christ didn't overturn this Kingdom by creating a new one; in fact He couldn't because His ministry was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, which included the Messianic Kingdom along with the prophecies for a new King. To overthrow this Kingdom would have been to over throw himself – which of course is nonsense. However what Christ was to do was to turn over the 'Key' of the Kingdom to a new tenant, what is today and the gentile Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church. Which is the reason that in Matthew, we hear Christ say, “I say to you [the Pharisees] that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.” This too is a pronouncement of on Mt. Sinai. Its here we see Christ conquering the world in the Messianic vision of David; but instead of “nation building” it is “Kingdom” building.


Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. referenced to the New Israel prophesied (Isa 66: 7-14)
Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? (Ps 118:22 Acts 4:10-12)

Psalms 118:22-23 The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner. This is the LORD'S doing; it [is] marvellous in our eyes.

Acts 4:10-11 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


1 Peter 2:6-7-8 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded.Unto you therefore which believe [He is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed

Hi Juan:

I thought I had explained, but it turns out I didn't – and I think my reading connects the Old Testament with the New as well as connecting us with God through Christ. The importance of “God's Kingdom” is that it is a direct connection with the Divine by which we are “ruled” by our faith and love of God. I like to make that connection this way:

We take God's Word as being immutable.

Correct.


Consequently, when God promises Moses a Kingdom we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand because it's Old Teastament and the law doesn't apply to the New Covenant.

You lost me there. Who dismisses Moses Kingdom?


Moses is told, “If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” (Ex.19: 5, 6), which is the Old Testament equivalent of Matt 16:18. The promise made to Moses is an integral part of the Old Testament. The Jewish Kingdom was both a spiritual and temporal Kingdom with a priestly heresiarch; the Jews were to be governed by their priests.

True. But therein lies the difference.

Neither the Levitical priests nor even the High Priests could enter behind the Veil. Yet we who are baptized into Christ, even the lowliest of us, exist within the Veil. We are sons in the Son.


Christ didn't overturn this Kingdom by creating a new one;

Agreed. He went into Hell and released the sons of Abraham to bring them into the land which was promised them so long ago. His Kingdom in Heaven.


in fact He couldn't because His ministry was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant,

Agreed.


which included the Messianic Kingdom along with the prophecies for a new King.

Because He is the Messiah and the King of Kings.


To overthrow this Kingdom would have been to over throw himself – which of course is nonsense.

Agreed.


However what Christ was to do was to turn over the 'Key' of the Kingdom to a new tenant, what is today and the gentile Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church.

I'm Catholic, so no argument. Well, except that:
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Which is the reason that in Matthew, we hear Christ say, “I say to you [the Pharisees] that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.” This too is a pronouncement of on Mt. Sinai. Its here we see Christ conquering the world in the Messianic vision of David; but instead of “nation building” it is “Kingdom” building.

I don't see much difference in "nation" or "kingdom". Christ's nation is a Kingdom.


Your opinion is valued, so how does this fit with your understanding of Scripture.

JoeT

I'd say we agree overall. Except that bit about dismissing Moses' Kingdom I didn't understand at the beginning.

DeMaria do we agree --->To the extent that the Kingdom of Heaven is as Matthew 22:2 brings to mind. "inheriting", or as being "heirs of the Kingdom"

Yes, we are members of the Royal Family, so to speak. We dare to say, "Abba, Father".

Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Matthew 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

And here on earth God's Kingdom would be with the Holy Spirit within each individual, known as children of God.. Obedience and righteousness (baptized to Newness of Life ) gifted with the Holy Spirit and dead in Christ.[/quote]

I would say, "alive in Christ". But I agree.


The names and appellatives of "the Church" are never used of the Kingdom (Eph. 1:23; 2:21; 4:4, 16; 5:30. Col. 1:24. 1Tim. 3:15). The privilege of "that Church" which consists of the partakers of "a heavenly calling", Heb. 3:1

Agreed. We are sons in the Son.


Rev. 20:4-6, will be to reign with Christ over the earthly Kingdom, whereas that Kingdom will be "under the whole heaven" (Dan. 7:27).
[/quote]

Dan 7
27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,

The Kingdom on earth...

shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Shal be absorbed by the Kingdom of heaven.

They will be one and the same Kingdom. That is what Jesus did when He desended into hell and brought the children of Abraham into the heavenly Kingdom. The very same Kingdom which He revealed was "upon you."

Luke 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

To me, its as though we are a Kingdom of one. We are one in Christ Jesus.

John 17
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Does that make sense?

To me, its as though we are a Kingdom of one. We are one in Christ Jesus.

Does that make sense?

Yes although you are saying it a little differently then what I do. We are with the Holy Spirit made one with Christ. As was Christ with the Holy Spirit one with The Father.

As (Col 2:9-10-11-12-13-14-15) In Christ dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and we are complete in him.

My reference of dead in Christ is dead to this world (newness of Life) able to raise as He did.

Romans 8:10-11 And if Christ in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[B]Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Correct.



You lost me there. Who dismisses Moses Kingdom?



True. But therein lies the difference.

Neither the Levitical priests nor even the High Priests could enter behind the Veil. Yet we who are baptized into Christ, even the lowliest of us, exist within the Veil. We are sons in the Son.



Agreed. He went into Hell and released the sons of Abraham to bring them into the land which was promised them so long ago. His Kingdom in Heaven.



Agreed.



Because He is the Messiah and the King of Kings.



Agreed.



I'm Catholic, so no argument. Well, except that:
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.



I don't see much difference in "nation" or "kingdom". Christ's nation is a Kingdom.



I'd say we agree overall. Except that bit about dismissing Moses' Kingdom I didn't understand at the beginning.


Ok, I think I can deal with this.

Joe,
I think that I can also deal with it.
Fred