I have a 12 year old Trane XV80 Variable Speed High Efficiency Two Stage furnace that has done a great job heating my home until it stopped working this weekend. The service man identified that the gas valve needs to be replaced and quoted $617 for the repair while suggesting that we really should just replace the furnace. There is a very small amount of rust visible on the unit.

1) Would you recommend that this unit be replaced? It seems to me that it should have a longer life span, yet I don't want to throw good money at bad.

2) Does $617 for the gas valve repair seem accurate?

3) A Carrier of equal efficiency has been recommended if we do repair and a quote for purchase/install of approx $4200 has been given. Any comment?

Any advice would be appreciated. It is cold in this home!

Thanks,
Shelley

1) Hard to say if you should replace it or not without physically inspecting it, but I wouldn't expect too much more from it. Things just aren't made like they used to be and the days of getting 30 years from a furnace are all but gone.

2) Depending on the valve that might be a viable amount. For example, if the unit has a Smart Valve then $500 - $600 sounds about right. Those valves are not cheap. If it does have a Smart Valve I would consider a retrofit kit to install a conventional valve.

3) I do like the Carrier equipment but if it were my job I would have suggested a Goodman unit. The price is hard to comment upon without knowing certain variables. The final cost will vary depending on the existing system and ducting.

A Carrier of equal efficiency has been recommended if we do repair and a quote for purchase/install of approx $4200 has been given. Any comment?

I would get at least two more estimates for the new furnace. I agree the Goodman furnaces are OK units and should be a lot less than the price you were quoted.

$617.00 would be high in my local market (Cincinnati), but that doesn't mean it is high in yours. If you buy a house here and have the unit brought in, you'll save a few $$$ on the repair.;)

If you buy a house here and have the unit brought in, you'll save a few $$$ on the repair.;)

Some service company years ago would bring in the A/C condensing units for repair. Then give them a spray paint job and sell it back to the customer as rebuilt. Yep in Ohio. Crane heating did the nasty and I took part in catching them..

I would not even think of doing repairs or replacement without getting a second opinion on what might be wrong with the furnace.

But do not give the second person, that you call, any information about what the first person you called said about the condition of your furnace.

But do not give the second person, that you call, any information about what the first person you called said about the condition of your furnace.

That is a dang good idea letmetellu since most people might do that and tip the next company off to the situation or price.

But do not give the second person, that you call, any information about what the first person you called said about the condition of your furnace.

That is a dang good idea letmetellu since most people might do that and tip the next company off to the situation or price.

I hate to admit that I have got more money out of several jobs than I would have bid just because the people told me that they already had a bid for so much money. I even got to a point that I ask people if they had already received a bid.

So I learned to never give out any information about work I was going to have done.

Shame shame. I shake my finger at you. LOL

If contractors told the truth they would all say whay you did about getting more out of a job. LOL

I hate to admit that I have got more money out of several jobs than I would have bid just because the people told me that they already had a bid for so much money. I even got to a point that I ask people if they had already recieved a bid.

I find it kind of nice to actually give the lowest price possible when giving a bid.(especially when another company has given an outrageous bid). Makes me feel good to undercut the competition. Makes for really great word of mouth business. Hard to justify selling a goodman for the same price as a lennox. I just try to treat the customers the same way I would like to be treated if I were in their shoes. Am I making any sense, or should I be locked up for having a good set of morrals?( or at least acting like I have a good set of morrals.LOL) In all honesty, I have screwed a few people, but I try not to as often as possible.

Ditch the morals, you'll give us all a bad name.;)

I always considered my very high prices were a verification of my quality of work and my standing in the HVAC community. But I always liked competition and when the competitors cheap installs did not work out well we were always glad to go in and tear out the cheap job and replace it with our expensive working equipment. This routine was played out over and over for many years. Most of the reason behind this was the fact that I only hired the best installers and service techs. I paid them very well plus health insurance, eye glass coverage, Red wing work boot allowance 2X per year, paid 3 weeks vacation to start, all holidays paid, 401K based on a percentage of net every year, and a damn generous Christmas Bonus paid in November so the guys and girls could pay cash for all there kids presents and more. You could say I paid for loyalty but I had almost no shrinkage/theft.

Most of the customers were commercial/industrial accounts but many of the owners wanted us to do there mini mansions also. I would rather have a $25,000 job at 37% net then bid an 875.00 job at the same rate all day long and then have to fight to get paid. In all the years of the biz I never had to go to court to collect a bill.

In business you can never screw a customer since you set your rate of return. If the customer does not like it they can always call someone else. I watched to many small business people screw themselves right out of business way to many times over the years since they always wanted to be cheap so they would get the job.

Many years ago I was passing by a new housing complex. I stopped by and met with the HVAC contractor. He said how great it was to have all the 100 units that the builder was going to do there and was real proud of that fact. I asked him strait out how much was his profit allowance for each unit. He put his head down a bit and said he lost about 2000.00 on the first unit but it was going to get better. Without laughing I asked him if he had 200,000.00 laying around and he said hell no and I said you better get to the bank and make a big loan on this job since at the rate of your loss per unit you will need that much cash to carry you over to the next looser job.

He understood exactly what I was saying and three weeks later he was working for me. He turned out to be a damn good mechanic and eventually went off on his own again to give being independent another try.

The facts are real simple. There are not that many really qualified people in this trade but there is a bunch of want a bees. If you are really good at what you do the public will beat a path to your door and if not you can get a lot of work just by being the lowest bidder.

Not so , in a small town. I don't work for nothing, but I don't overprice for any reason. I want people to be able to afford my work without breaking the bank, and I don't slack on profressionalism. Our customers come back almost everytime(they only have a couple other choices). We actually get more work from the other guys that charge way too much, and don't come back when there is a problem.

You are correct about not always winning by being the lowest bidder. But there is definitely something to be said for doing the job, making money, and not over charging when its not necessary. I will argue this with you till I'm blue in the face, it's a matter of decency, not getting rich.

I think its great that you treated your employees with the respect and pay that they deserve, I wish all employers had that great quality. I breaks me up to see a talented, hard working person get screwed by an employer.

Don't get me wrong hvac, I see your point very clearly. But I believe a make a good point also. Now, enough of this, my face is blue, so I guess I'm done.LOL.

Everyone has there own way of doing things. I retired at 48 so I must of done something correctly. LOL For many years I have donated my time to instruct code classes/manufactures promotions/ and equipment testing dept at the university. Actually I started that department so the university could fund the HVAC engineering department which now has all the toys for me to play with. I never asked for compensation since I feel that everyone should give back to there respective trade since that is how they made there $$$ to start with. Now I will have to admit that many manufactures supply me personally with various parts and other materials and never asked to be paid so I gusss I do get something out of it.

Another good thing about not being paid. No one can tell me what to do or when to do it. For years I had many bosses since I considered every customer my boss when they called. Whoever had the money was always my boss. LOL

Question? Can anyone tell me exactly what this resistor is used for in a older furnace. HINT: It is not for the thermostat as some might think it is.

I don't know, but I'm hoping you will tell me. Im always up for learning.

That's the great thing about having you here. I can always expect to learn something.

Williamson spark module?

My hat is off to you HVAC post 13. I always look for your input on the post. I have been in the bis for 14 years. I allway do the job the right way (the way I know.mite not be right way but the best way I know LOL) If they won't cheap then find someone else. After being in the field for 14 years I was hopping to go out on my own but with the ecommny not so good I think I will wait till it getts better
For your pic. I have seen it just can't recall it. Think it mit have been on a limit

Everyone has there own way of doing things. I retired at 48 so I must of done something correctly. LOL For many years I have donated my time to instruct code classes/manufactures promotions/ and equipment testing dept at the university. Actually I started that department so the university could fund the HVAC engineering department which now has all the toys for me to play with. I never asked for compensation since I feel that everyone should give back to there respective trade since that is how they made there $$$ to start with. Now I will have to admit that many manufactures supply me personally with various parts and other materials and never asked to be paid so I gusss I do get something out of it.

Another good thing about not being paid. No one can tell me what to do or when to do it. For years I had many bosses since I considered every customer my boss when they called. Whoever had the money was always my boss. LOL

Question? Can anyone tell me exactly what this resistor is used for in a older furnace. HINT: It is not for the thermostat as some might think it is.




The resistor in the picture is used on older White Rodger spark ignition valves. There was also a companion resistor to this one that was designed to go on the valves that had the plug in mercury safety.

I had started to sell equipment as well as converting standing pilots to spark. Then all of a sudden after 3 or 4 weeks of use the gas valves would turn on and then shut off without providing any heat cycle. All the valve would do is open and then close sometimes with a bit of flame.

Since I was stuck in the middle of the winter with many of these problems and naturally the customers were having a hissy fit something had to be done. White Rodgers new of the problem but no help was forth coming from them since it takes a act of god for them to admit the engineers screwed up so it was left up to me to figure out my own problems. LOL

I took a new gas valve apart then took a new mercury flame sensor apart and followed out exactly what was happening. It seemed there was a slight voltage influx that would cause the safety to kick out the gas valve over and over again. I had what used to be called a resistor break out box. It was left over from the early electronics days when if you did not know exactly what value resistor you need you hooked up the box and then dialed around all the values till you hit one that worked the best. That is exactly what I did and lo and behold the valve started working properly.

This was in the days before Radio Shack name was popular and it was called Allied Supply back then. I went down and bought a hand full of resistors which were army surplus at the time and ran around adding them to all the gas valves.

I contacted White Rodgers and told them to try this resistor on for size. Naturally I heard all about the problems with not being listed by the gas association and UL at the time but I told them if they had a better idea to help my customers I was willing to try it. Lo and behold they started to give the same value resistors away at the supply houses for about a year then they started to charge for them. They had the same problem with the plug in valve styles and made a panel with holes and resistor that would fit the prongs. The good old days were a lot simpler than today. LOL

HVAC, someday when I'm old enough to retire(most likely never, let alone 48) I can only hope that I have acquired half of the knowledge and wisdom that you have. Simply put... You are amazing, and it's a privilege to be able to hear of your work.

You have to enjoy what you do or it is just a job with no end in site. I have always enjoyed what I have done and that is the secret to success. I tell the younger folks at the university when I give my pep talk that if your are satisfied at what you do and enjoy your job the financial rewards will always follow. I finish by telling them I try to learn something new every day and never pass up the opportunity to talk to older people since they have experienced much and it is a shame that when they pass the information is lost unless carried on by others.

I truly hope I never get burned out on my job, either plumbing or hvac. I have liked working with my hands as well as training my brain ever since I was a litte guy. I can't see getting tired of working with these trades, although, I must admitt, the people can get to me a little, but I trained myself years ago to,, just grin and bear it.

I love to work around older gentlemen, and learn little tricks and get advice that I never would have thought of. They usually have some pretty interesting storys about how they acquired there knowledge on certain things.

Get this: Not too far from my home is an intersection of two roads named "Grinn" and "Barrett". No $#1T! The sign is a landmark and a reminder for me.

So every time you drive by that intersection, you think,, now that's what I should have done, instead of punching that guy in the nose.lol

I'll get a pic next time I pass it. You have to see it... to believe it.

I truly hope i never get burned out on my job, either plumbing or hvac. I have liked working with my hands as well as training my brain ever since i was a litte guy. I can't see getting tired of working with these trades, although, i must admitt, the people can get to me a little, but i trained myself years ago to,,, just grin and bear it.

I love to work around older gentlemen, and learn little tricks and get advice that i never would have thought of. They usually have some pretty interesting storys about how they aquired there knowledge on certain things.


I am kind of the same way. I was always taking apart everyone's radio when I was a kid then putting them back together just to see how they worked. The old tube type were a real bear since the metal top on the galss tube can give the uninformed a good shock. It was the tube plate voltage that would get you every time. Naturally charging up a capacitor and tossing it to one of my buddys in school worked every time for a laugh.LOL

I have what you could call head problems since I was a kid. They did not have fancy names for all that stuff back then. I was hyper active and always had to keep my mind busy and I did not sleep at night. My parents could always tell when I was up cause you could smell the rosin core solder from me working on a project. Later in the good old Catholic grade school I had to take the a advancement test 3 times since they did not believe the score. A short time later after a visit to some kind of doctor they had me take a Mensa test and the results of that explained many things. The Nuns got off my and I was allowed to do whatever I wanted especially after I built the first portable electronic organ that anyone new of or heard before. My hole father sold the drawings and gave the organ to the Baldwin Piano company for some good $$$$$. He was a boozer and burned through the money. This design or parts of it were later used in the Yamaha portable organ use by some of the popular bands of the 60's. The D-2B and the EX-42 were the units from Yamaha. You also have to remember my design was analog since digital was not available yet. Such a simple circuit would be laughed at today but a old military surplus code oscillator with 8 pots to vary the voltage along with 8 finger tabs with one little speaker and one of the old large 9 volt batterys made that baby work just great. I remember the Nuns with there pitch pipes helping me to tune it so it sounded just right at the college science fair. It was a big time for me to go since the competition was not open to grade schoolers but you know how those nuns are. They put there mind to it and I did a demo for the college president and he said I was allowed to participate and that is how Baldwin Piano Company found out about my portable organ.

The good old days.

Waiting for that picture of the street sign KC13.

I believe the correct terminology for your head problems,(these days) would be called,, genious. Betting that's what the test proved. Thanks for a little insight into your life. I believe a bio book on your life would most likely become a best seller. I truly wish I were a writer or pulblisher(or knew one for that matter), because I would be knocking on your door tomorrow.

Everyone's life is interesting as I see it. It is too bad with all the hustle and bussle today that people do not take more time to find out more about each other. When I had the shop every month I would check with the employees over coffee and donuts privately in my office as to just how it was going in there life. It took me about a month to get to all of them then I started over. It gave me a little window as to how my employees were doing along with there family members. It took them awhile to get used to this routine since when I started it they just thought I was a little nuts for bothering to care. They used to tease the new hires about the once a month meeting with the boss. LOL

Finding out about various traits about each one of them had allowed me to place the people where they would do the best for the business and also helped them understand that I was just one of them but the difference was I sat in a big office sometimes. On a three months cycle I liked to ride with every one of the employees to the service calls or installs. This way we had personal time together for a day at least 4 times a year. I can say I had the greatest group of personnel of any HVAC company in my opinion. Now I will also have to admit I had some pretty ruff and tumble guys also. I do remember having to bail my leed man out of jail more than one time and a few others to boot. To much alcohol and bar fights will cause that but they were good at what they did and they had families to support. I had a standing offer for everyone in my business that if they though alcohol was starting to take over there lives and they needed a program to help them quit I would pay for it. There were quite a few takers over the years of that offer and most were better off for taking it but the first few month are difficult for a recovering alcoholic so I made allowances for this at work to help smooth the way. I have paid for baby sitting for weekends so the men could take the wives away for a day or two to work things out without the kids being around. All of this might sound crazy to many people but it was all in my plan to make work not a dirty word and see smiling faces when I walked in the door at 6:30AM every day. I wanted my people to be winners not losers because if they were winners so was I.

This does not sound crazy to me at all. As a matter of fact, I believe this shows not only a great boss, but a great heart. Of all the post of yours I have read, this one touches me the most. I aspire to someday be the boss that you were. As of now, I think that my current boss is about as close to your thinking as he could possibly be. This really hit home with me(im not the problem employee, but there are a couple rough and tumbles, as you say, and I never fully grasp why my boss helped them out so much, as in bailing out, giving loans,and such) I guess they just play as hard as they work. Hopefully someday they will realize how lucky they were to have a boss(and a friend and mentor) such as you.