http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/28/world/middleeast/28mideast.html?_r=1

What I find most interesting about this long over-due Israeli response is that Egypt appears to be siding with Israel.

While Barak was working out the final details with the officers responsible for the operation, Livni went to Cairo to inform Egypt's president, Hosni Mubarak, that Israel had decided to strike at Hamas.

Disinformation, secrecy and lies: How the Gaza offensive came about - Haaretz - Israel News (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050426.html)

Egypt Blames Hamas for War
YouTube - Egypt Blames Hamas for War (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX9ymb60jWA)

Egypt is sealing its border with Gaza and firing on Palestinians seeking refuge.
The Press Association: Egyptians open fire on Palestinians (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5grmpk18UVAYzqu4fu2F0eNh8QIgA)

Best guess as to why Egypt is doing this is because they fear Iranian Revolution influences in their back yard more than they fear a Zionist state .


Mubarak accused the Islamic Republic of trying to subsume its Muslim neighbors, telling the forum that "the Persians are trying to devour the Arab states."

Mubarak's comments came after the Egyptian leader recalled the country's diplomatic envoy from the Iranian capital earlier this week following an increase in tension between the two countries.

Recent strain between Cairo and Teheran has grown as several demonstrations in Iran called for the hanging of the Egyptian leader. The Iranian FARS news service reported that participants in recent student demonstrations outside the Egyptian diplomatic mission in Teheran also chanted "Death to Israel" and "Death to America" and burned an Israeli flag.


'Iran wants to devour the Arab world' | Middle East | Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1228728151219&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull)

Meanwhile the useless UN condemns Israel for it's "disproportionate use of force".Meaning it would be much better if Israel indiscriminantly launched rockets into Gaza one at a time .

Yes, this "disparate use of force" seems to be the latest PC application.

No one is supposed to win. Everyone is supposed to lose equally!

Happy Hanukkah bomb and slaughter to all of you.

“When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are to possess and casts out the many peoples living there, you shall then slaughter them all and utterly destroy them…You shall make no agreements with them nor show them any mercy…You shall destroy their altars, break down their images, cut down their groves and burn their graven images with fire. For you are a holy people unto the LORD thy God and He has chosen you to be a special people above all others upon the face of the earth…”

–Book of Deuteronomy, 7:1-8


So in other words, Zionism–the idea that the “Chosen people” were promised the land encompassing modern day Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and elsewhere and were given the commandment to expel, murder and enslave the peoples and civilizations already there got its start with Abraham and was later put into practice by Moses and those who came after him. By definition then, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Saul, David and all the other “Patriarchs” (the George Washingtons, Thomas Jeffersons and John Adams of “Israel”) were Zionists.

Putting this into context, any other person or group of persons claiming to have received divine messages from some “higher power” telling them they were superior creatures and commanding them to invade, slaughter, enslave and rob other peoples not like them would–rightly–be branded criminally insane, delusional, fanatical and locked away for life. As it is today though, this situation is not categorized as such. Rather, it has been made into a “holy” religion that guides the actions of a nuclear-armed nation.

OK mag apply that logic to America and it's settlement .

Assuming I accept your premise... If 100s of rockets were launched from the Indian Reservation lands at civilian targets ;how would you expect the US to respond ?

Given the lack of major "spontaneous " response from the "Arab street " ,that Egypt and the rest of the Arab nations appear to support the IDF actions (note the unwillingness for the Arab League to respond) ; the UN tepid reaction ;the silence of the "Quartet"... it appears there is little sympathy for the plight of the Hamas thugs.

LATEST :
A cease-fire has been rejected

Aaron Klein of World Net Daily has been making the radio talk show circuit and reported that Hamas has obtained Chinese/Iran made rockets that can reach Tel Aviv.

Egyptian President Mubarack said that Egypt will not reopen the Gaza border crossings until and if the PA (Fatah) take control of the checkpoints. That sounds like the playing of 'el deguello' to me.

All Egyptian Army leaves are cancelled. They could be the anvil for the IDF hammer .

America hasn't completely cut of supply lines to the American Red Indian yet. If our government were starving them, they would have every right to shoot rockets.
Israel is committing ethnic cleansing.
But you know, I can't argue it with the Jewish folks so I'll stop here.

Our ethnic cleansing occurred in earnest with Andy Jackson and accelerated until the natives were no longer a threat.

So that makes it OK for our government to condone it.
I see.

YouTube - Cynthia McKinney SLAMS Israeli Navy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n4OhUpc20Q)

YouTube - Relief Boat Rammed While Attempting To Deliver Supplies To Gaza! Cynthia McKinney On Board! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3zKeD_Q09g)

Yeah ;I'm sure by the time the press finishes with this episode, it will be the next USS Liberty incident .


So that makes it OK for our government to condone it.
I see.

I say we did far worse .
We had a removal of the natives from the lands East of the Mississippi under Jackson and then invaded the lands West ;conquered the nations again .

Israel has returned almost all the land captured since the 1967 war and has no desire for expansion... has a Palestinian population living inside Israel with full citizen rights and representation in the Knesset .

The Palestinians have held elections ;are a free state ;get massive humanitarian assistance from Israel . Israel has tried to deal with the residence of Gaza as a civilized nation.

Instead ;rocket attacks from Gaza rain down on Israel on a daily basis for months with no response. Again ;what would the US reaction to that be if the rockets came from the reservations ;or from Canada or Mexico ?

What would you suggest ? The final solution no doubt. Israel exists... the Palestinians need to get over that reality .

Israel exists ....the Palestinians need to get over that reality .

I am sure all those innocent women and children dying/wounded in that area realise that Israel exists.

Just had to put my nose in here, not having a good day and to see the massacre continue,it is heart wrenching.

Violence seems to be escalating everywhere.. even the so thought "peaceful" community I belong to is not so peaceful anymore.

I am sure all those innocent women and children dying/wounded in that area realise that Israel exists

They then should petition their Hamas elected leaders to stop launching random rocket attacks at innocent Israeli women and children from the top of their homes/hospitals/Mosques / schools etc.

They then should petition their Hamas elected leaders to stop launching random rocket attacks at innocent Israeli women and children from the top of their homes/hospitals/Mosques / schools etc.

Wow talk about over simplifying things. As soon as the Israeli are done killing innocent Palestinians they will start working on the petition you are talking about. There are just a little bust TRYING TO STAY ALIVE

Hello:

Seems we have sort of a disconnect... White is black. Black is white. Somebody better get a grip pretty soon, though.

The Israeli's don't target civilians. Hamas does. I don't know what's so hard to get about that.

Hamas houses its military wares in CIVILIAN areas, just so that when Israel attacks military targets, they're going to kill civilians.

Israel, on the other hand, keeps it's military FARRRRRRR away from its civilian areas. They do that, because they really value their citizens. Hamas uses their dead citizens as propaganda.

So, you'd think that Hamas would attack military targets, like the Israeli's do... But, nahhh. They'd actually rather kill civilians...

These facts aren't really difficult to understand... But, of course, if you're just blind...

excon

Let them kill each other, they are religious fanatic idiots in my humble opinion.

Petition was too kind a word . They should overthrow their Hamas leaders and string them up like Mussolini . Then they should elect reasonable leaders who want to live in peace with their neighbor .

Hello again:

A couple of days ago, Israel dropped a 2,000-pound bomb on a Gazan home which killed a top Hamas leader.. . In addition to 18 others, including his four wives and nine of his children.

I'm sure he was a baaaad guy... However, they could have found a better way to do that. How about exploding cigars or cell phones?

excon

I'm sure there was a reason. Perhaps the guy had a bunker under his house ? It is well known that Hamas uses human shields, planting weapons in mosques, schools and civilian neighborhoods. The Israeli's have been very careful in their pin-point targeting selection and very careful to minimize civilian casualties. It is dropping leaflets warning neighbors of Hamas leaders to leave their homes, and also making thousands of phone calls to civilians telling them when to leave to avoid being hit. No other country conducts war this way.

While they have conducted war against Hamas ,Israel has allowed 8,000 tons of humanitarian aid to enter Gaza, with food, medical supplies, fuel, etc .

Compare that the fact that 6,500 rockets have randomly fallen on Israel since disengagement in 2005 .Going back even further ,Hamas was bombing Israelis on buses, in cinemas, pizzerias, markets when Israel was negotiating peace as far back as the Oslo Accords .

Still Israel kept the truce with Hamas even as the rockets rained on them. It was Hamas's decision to go to war against Israel. In their own words, they broke the "truce" and declared war.

I'm sure there was a reason. Perhaps the guy had a bunker under his house ? It is well known that Hamas uses human shields, planting weapons in mosques, schools and civilian neighborhoods. The Israeli's have been very careful in their pin-point targeting selection and very careful to minimize civilian casualties. It is dropping leaflets warning neighbors of Hamas leaders to leave their homes, and also making thousands of phone calls to civilians telling them when to leave to avoid being hit. No other country conducts war this way.

While they have conducted war against Hamas ,Israel has allowed 8,000 tons of humanitarian aid to enter Gaza, with food, medical supplies, fuel, etc .

Compare that the the fact that 6,500 rockets have randomly fallen on Israel since disengagement in 2005 .Going back even further ,Hamas was bombing Israelis on buses, in cinemas, pizzerias, markets when Israel was negotiating peace as far back as the Oslo Accords .

Still Israel kept the truce with Hamas even as the rockets rained on them. It was Hamas's decision to go to war against Israel. In their own words, they broke the "truce" and declared war.



WOW I am sure there was areason, lol This is pretty funny.And how would you know that there must have been a reason. The problem with people like you that you are so blinded by your beliefs that you don't see the other side of the equation.Isreal may win this battle but I doubt it will win the war.

The rights and wrongs of killing civilians | Proportional to what? | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/world/mideast-africa/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12867302)

Proof that isrealis are killing civilians!!

Why should they respond to constant attack from Gaza ,since they disengaged from Gaza ,in a proportional way ? I would turn a block where a rocket was launched into a parting lot... not just the house .

As I pointed out (reading comprehension is good ) Israel indiscriminantly launching rockets into Gaza one at a time would be a proportional response . Don't give me sob stories about civilian deaths while Hamas uses the civilians in Gaza as human shields.

Why should they respond to constant attack from Gaza ,since they disengaged from Gaza ,in a proportional way ? I would turn a block where a rocket was launched into a parting lot...not just the house .

As I pointed out (reading comprehension is good ) Israel indiscriminantly launching rockets into Gaza one at a time would be a proportional response . Don't give me sob stories about civilian deaths while Hamas uses the civilians in Gaza as human shields.

Maybe a little history lesson is in order

Palestinians through the Oslo Accords, have already agreed to recognise Israel in 78% of what is historically their homeland. All they are asking for is the remaining 22% on which Israel is building settlements. Right now the negotiations are only about the 22% land and the right of refugees, both of which are unacceptable to Israel, which wants to keep the settlements and give no rights to refugees.

The ceasefire was based on Israeli promises of lifting the crippling blockade, which Israel did not do. So Hamas threw some symbolic rockets. People are eating pet food, grass and scrounging the trash. Since the Israelis stopped the cash flow, no one has any money to pay salaries or go shopping even when there is food. Two months before the end of the ceasefire, Israelis invaded and attacked, killing several Palestinians. Hamas demanded a better truce at the end of it, no invasions, no blockade and ceasefire in West Bank in return for no rockets. No Israeli died in the weeks preceding the ceasefire until 27th December, after which 4 Israelis have died from rockets. In the previous 7 years, 17 Israelis have died from rockets. While 5000 Palestinians have died from military incursions, not counting the last month.

So who's the terrorist??

The right of return is a non-starter . Arafat rejected Camp David because of that proposal . Both sides know it is a poison-pill. The fact is that if Israel returned completely to pre-1968 borders the Palestinians would not be satisfied . The issue is Israel's right to exist which no Palestinian in leadership has recognized.

Hamas would not have any political authority at all but for the Oslo Accords and ensuing agreements. Yet they call honoring any of the Accords “treasonous”. They are the main stumbling block between Israel and PA achieving any kind of peace agreement.

In fact, Hamas is now launching another civil war against PA Fatah members in Gaza.

Hamas moves on Fatah 'collaborators' | Confronting Hamas | Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733155685&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)


Like I said ;the people of Gaza have to take out Hamas for any chance of normalcy.

Arafat rejected Camp David because of that proposal

Where do you get your information from zionist.com.You need to do a little more researh then that.Let me point you towards an unbaised point of view
Was Arafat the problem? - By Robert Wright - Slate Magazine (http://www.slate.com/?id=2064500)

Lol unbiased and Slate Magazine should not be said in the same sentence. The 'right of return' is a non-starter . The Palestinians know this and that is why they leave it on the table. They are not interested in any solution that leaves a State of Israel. It is written in all their charters .

I would propose the nations that had control of the West Bank and Gaza before 1967 should take possession of them again . But even they don't want the Palestinians.I'm not alone apparently :
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/04/AR2009010401434.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

You cannot be in favor of a 2 state solution and support Hamas simultaneously .Hamas does not want a 2 state solution ;they want Israel exterminated .

Hello again:

Remember the disconnect I was talking about?? One side says the wall is black. The other side says it's white... Proof?? History?? Reality?? They don't matter anymore.

Soooo, I suggest that this argument is between those who hate Jews and those who don't.

excon

Hello again:

Remember the disconnect I was talking about????? One side says the wall is black. The other side says it's white...... Proof????? History????? Reality???? They don't matter anymore.

Soooo, I suggest that this argument is between those who hate Jews and those who don't.

excon

Exactly what proof , history and reality are you talking about , my bad I forgot that's your version of the truth and history. TRUTH and HISTORY are RELATIVE.

I don't hate anybody. I think Jews have the right to live in there land peacefully, and I think Palestinians have the same right . I also think hamas is a terrorist organization, but I also think that some of the Israelis over on the other side should be tried of war crimes. Ariel sharon( case and point).

Rather then talking about a solution for this problem you can up with garbage statement that all the people who support the Palestinian cause must hate Jews

lol unbiased and Slate Magazine should not be said in the same sentence. The 'right of return' is a non-starter . The Palestinians know this and that is why they leave it on the table. They are not interested in any solution that leaves a State of Israel. It is written in all their charters .

I would propose the nations that had control of the West Bank and Gaza before 1967 should take possession of them again . But even they don't want the Palestinians.I'm not alone apparently :
washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/04/AR2009010401434.html?hpid=opinionsbox1)

You cannot be in favor of a 2 state solution and support Hamas simultaneously .Hamas does not want a 2 state solution ;they want Israel exterminated .

So you say that Hamas does not support the 2 state solution. You think Hamas is firing rocket over into Israel because it wants to take over Israel.

Okay now lets come out of your psudo relality and focus on the facts.

1. The ceasefire of the last 6 months was based on Israeli promises of lifting the crippling economic siege imposed since 2006, when Hamas won the elections.


The blockade was never lifted, i.e. Israeli promises were null and void from day one. Hamas promised to stop its suicide bombing. There has been no suicide bombing.

2. The last ceasefire was announced by Hamas, Israel stopped short of claiming it a ceasefire. The IDF broke the ceasefire two months ago by targeting the tunnels that were being used by the Gazans to smuggle in food and medicines as well as fuel. The Israeli press admitted they invaded Gaza and killed several Palestinians.




3. Hamas asked for a truce on better terms i.e. no more attacks on Palestinians, lifting the blockade and no more assassinations. They refused to continue the ceasefire as is, because with the blockade, it was pointless. What were Gazans to do? Starve? Israel refused. They wanted a truce on better terms for themselves. Considering they already impose a complete blockade on Palestine, what are these better terms??

4. On the day that the current conflict started, last Saturday, no Israeli had died of rocket attacks in the intervening weeks [several Palestinians had died due to accidents].

(But in some ways the elections have made it impossible for officials like Mr. Barak not to react, because the public has grown anxious and angry over the rocket fire, which while causing no recent deaths and few injuries is deeply disturbing for those living near Gaza)

Four Israelis have died since [including one Israeli Arab]. 435 Palestinians have died, 2000 are injured [as I write, the Palestinians are still under attack] and the humanitarian crisis still goes on, the bombing continues and refugees are still waiting for justice.

As I watch the unfolding of the pseudo-reality that passes for news, I feel a strange epiphany. Gaza is the last bastion, not only for the Palestinian state, but also for the two state solution. In a strangely self destructive manner, Israel is destroying all future possibility of a two state solution. It will have no choice, if it defeats Hamas, but to inherit the Palestinians. In a one state solution.


Her are some interesting FACTS NOT PSEUDO FACTS


In addition to running out of food for 750,000 Palestinians, about half of Gaza’s population, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) said it would be forced after Thursday to suspend cash assistance to 98,000 poor Gazans because of a shortage of currency in the territory.

Barack acknowledged in the radio interview that the violence was touched off by the Israeli raid, which the army said destroyed a tunnel at the frontier that Gaza militants dug and could have been used to try to seize Israeli soldiers.

More than a dozen Palestinian fighters have been killed in in the past two weeks. Several Israelis have been slightly wounded by dozens of rockets.

I'm not impressed by casualty figures. It is a ridiculous proposition to say that war should be fought in a tit-for- tat proportional basis.
If America played by those rules in World War II, then by the end we would have been guilty , since German, Italian and Japanese forces were on the defensive and far less lethal than the Allies.

I got to love this selective outrage. The Russians laid siege of the mostly Muslim Grozny at the beginning of this decade ;totally destroying it ,and the world never once stood together in collective outrage.The losses among the city's population were never counted.

But let Israel have the audacity to defend itself when attacked then it makes the headlines and garners world wide condemnation.

Hamas 'coup' in Gaza made them the government there terrorist group or not. If they choose to continue to wage war against Israel then they should not be surprised when Israel wages war against them.


Why should Israel lift a blockade so long as rockets continue to get smuggled into Gaza ? The missiles launched at the rate of 80 per day before the Israeli actions were launching increasingly larger payloads and covering larger areas of Israel.

I'm not impressed by casualty figures. It is a rediculous proposition to say that war should be fought in a tit-for- tat proportional basis.
If America played by those rules in World War II, then by the end we would have been guilty , since German, Italian and Japanese forces were on the defensive and far less lethal than the Allies.

I gotta love this selective outrage. The Russians laid siege of the mostly Muslim Grozny at the beginning of this decade ;totally destroying it ,and the world never once stood together in collective outrage.The losses among the city's population were never counted.

But let Israel have the audacity to defend itself when attacked then it makes the headlines and garners world wide condemnation.

Hamas 'coup' in Gaza made them the government there terrorist group or not. If they choose to continue to wage war against Israel then they should not be suprised when Israel wages war against them.


Why should Israel lift a blockade so long as rockets continue to get smuggled into Gaza ? The missiles launched at the rate of 80 per day before the Israeli actions were launching increasingly larger payloads and covering larger areas of Israel.

Did you not read my reply, this war was not started by hamas it was started by Isreal.

As for virgins in paradise have a busy day. I doubt you even know the first thing about islam. Educate yourself before making fun of it.Ignorance is no excuse.

Did you not read my reply, this war was not started by hamas it was started by Isreal.Hello again, Dare:

You're RIGHT. Israel started this war because Hamas ended the truce.

So, is the wall black or white?

excon

Hello again, Dare:

You're RIGHT. Israel started this war because Hamas ended the truce.

So, is the wall black or white?

excon

The ceasefire was based on Israeli promises of lifting the crippling blockade, which Israel did not do. So Hamas threw some symbolic rockets

You tell me is it black or white.

We can do this all day long

So Hamas threw some symbolic rocketsHello again, Dare:

They wouldn't have been so symbolic if they landed on YOUR house.

Look, if HISTORY, or our versions of it, IS the guideline for peace, it'll NEVER happen...

One side or the other, has to make a breakthrough. It's possible. I think Obama will do it.

You're right. We can talk AT each other all day... Rational discussions about the topic are rare. But, if you want to hear one, go here:

Townhall.com Audio Player (http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/MediaPlayer/AudioPlayer.aspx?ContentGuid=8c64878d-9766-477e-9526-ab26b3d928fb). The discussion starts at about 19:30.

You'll hear Glen Greenwald, a very smart lefty, left of left, and Hugh Hewitt, a righty, right of Genghis Kahn.

excon

Egypt blocked supply routes through the Philadelphia corridor into Gaza . Wonder why Hamas was not launching rockets into Sinai ?

Soooo, I suggest that this argument is between those who hate Jews and those who don't.

YouTube - Pro-Hamas Demonstration - Fort Lauderdale FL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Xl68kP4wo)

YouTube - Pro-Hamas Demonstration - Fort Lauderdale FL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Xl68kP4wo)Couldn't one find pro-demonstrations for pretty much any group on YouTube? Not sure what that proves.

Hello again, Dare:

They wouldn't have been so symbolic if they landed on YOUR house.

Look, if HISTORY, or our versions of it, IS the guideline for peace, it'll NEVER happen....

One side or the other, has to make a breakthrough. It's possible. I think Obama will do it.

You're right. We can talk AT each other all day.... Rational discussions about the topic are rare. But, if you want to hear one, go here:

Townhall.com Audio Player (http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/MediaPlayer/AudioPlayer.aspx?ContentGuid=8c64878d-9766-477e-9526-ab26b3d928fb). The discussion starts at about 19:30.

You'll hear Glen Greenwald, a very smart lefty, left of left, and Hugh Hewitt, a righty, right of Genghis Kahn.

excon

Good discussiion. Thanks for pointing me to the link.

YouTube - Pro-Hamas Demonstration - Fort Lauderdale FL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Xl68kP4wo)

So by your logic everybody who supports the isrealis cause must hate muslims. How asinine is that

Couldn't one find pro-demonstrations for pretty much any group on youtube?"


Its' what the protester was saying that was relevant to the point.


Go back to the oven. You need a big oven, that's what you need."

A little more work for the virgins in paradise...

Missile reportedly kills top al-Qaida operatives (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28565824/)

And another notable victory in Iraq...

For One Night, GIs in Iraq Get a Taste of Home: Football and Beer (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010803928.html?wprss=rss_world)