Much we, as perceived "intelectuals", have assumed about our world and how it works. Maybe it's time to open our minds and see what things are for what they are. And what is that? Nothing more than a transferance of energy form one form to another. No? Maybe maybe not. Evidence from all around goes in many directions at once. How many relious views are there? Who knows, doe it matter, no not really.

So here is my question, if Science makes the holy book a lie, by stating that man evolved from monkeys, and not by what ever means we were supposed to be created, why then not give that to science, and inturn realise that humans make mistakes. This would be true for whom ever may have made the book, let alone translated it, or even for whom read it. Haha, funny, to think that there is all this nonsense because one man says "it's a snake!", and another, "it's a tree!", and yet another says" no, it's a bush!"

How about this, I heard a story from some indian(east I think) culture, about a man who takes three blind men to the elefant and gives one man the tail, the other man the trunck, (I'm almost sure I spelled that worng.) and the other the leg. SO, the one with the leg says, it's a tree, the one with the trunk, it's a snake, the one with the tail, it's a bush.

I"M out of time but try to remember, they all had the same thing, and holding only ones perception is to separate from the rest, thus loosing what insights they see/learn/ and offer. DOnt' be a fool, and ignore that the possibilities are endlass, no matter what you think they are, they are simply what they are and not you or any one can cahnge that. Though, you can influence a change? Very dangerous.

MInd you, "there is no good, there is no Bad, there is only possibility." --- ME Benjamin.

Tell me what you will, for I have much more to say, peace bewith you my brothers, and sisters.

Does this have anything to do with Christianity? If so, please make the connection.

Maybe this is for the Religious Discussion boards?

I agree with De Maria, why post this in a specific religious board when the question is so general.

Ok, no more riddles.
I have chosen to post this, yes so very general qestion here because this is the most heated place for religious talk. Christians are one of the most heated, and passionate people I've ever met. That is why I want to see if Christians can make the connection.

The part about "THE BOOK" is acctually about the bible, there are possibilities that are there, and yet we choose to ignore them. SO I wonder why not try to take the "good" ideas from the story and try to learn from them. Much the same as we do with any bit of writing. Do we have to believe the bible to believe in GOD? What if we think GOD is more than just a being, more than our creator?

So am I off the wall, is there no possible way that the good book was misstakenly assumed "the book" when really religion does not come form a book, nor a church, Priest, heaven, hell, but really it comes from with in us. It is apart of us as we are apart of it. So in thinking so, just as Jessus said, "this is my body, and the wine my blood." Do you not wonder if that maybe means that he recognised that he was a part of all things, and the people back then may have bin too simple minded to realise he was talking of all things? Truly interesting I dead I say, and yes it ties close to christianity because I know little about it, but more than any other religion.

TO BE CLEAR, I'm not saying GOD does not exsist, because that is one of many possibilities, but I believe GOD is One and all. God is the energy that gives life, that makes it flow, that binds the biggest person to the smallest cell.

So tell me what you think.

Yes!

Ok, no more riddles.
I have choosen to post this, yes so very general qestion here because this is the most heated place for religous talk. Christians are one of the most heated, and passionate people ive ever met. That is why i want to see if Christians can make the connection.

The part about "THE BOOK" is acctually about the bible, there are possibilities that are there, and yet we choose to ignore them. SO i wonder why not try to take the "good" ideas from the story and try to learn from them. Much the same as we do with any bit of writing. Do we have to believe the bible to believe in GOD? What if we think GOD is more than just a being, more than our creator??

So am i off the wall, is there no possible way that the good book was misstakenly assumed "the book" when really religion does not come form a book, nor a church, Priest, heaven, hell, but really it comes from with in us. It is apart of us as we are apart of it. So in thinking so, just as Jessus said, "this is my body, and the wine my blood." Do you not wonder if that maybe means that he recognised that he was a part of all things, and the people back then may have bin too simple minded to realise he was talking of all things?? Truely interesting i dead i say, and yes it ties close to christianity because I know little about it, but more than any other religion.

TO BE CLEAR, i'm not saying GOD does not exsist, becuase that is one of many possibilities, but I believe GOD is One and all. God is the energy that gives life, that makes it flow, that binds the biggest person to the smallest cell.

So tell me what you think.

I'd say, "you're getting warm".

First problem that I see is that you don't trust the people who came before you:
the people back then may have bin too simple minded to realise he was talking of all things??

But we believe they were just as smart as we are.

Second problem is related to the first. You seem to believe that the "BOOK" was laying around for 2000 years and NO ONE understood it until you came around.

Third problem, you admit you know little about Christianity and that the little that you think you know truly represents that religion. But no, we don't believe that religion COMES FROM a book. The Bible is the record of what God revealed to His people.

Fourth problem, you said that it is possible that God does not exist. No, that is not possible.

But you're saying that:
but I believe GOD is One and all. God is the energy that gives life, that makes it flow, that binds the biggest person to the smallest cell.

Is very close to the truth. God revealed that He is Yahweh. Some people pronounce it, "Jehovah". But it means the same thing. I AM WHO AM. As we understand it. It means that God is all which exists.

Sincerely,

I'd say, "you're getting warm".

First problem that I see is that you don't trust the people who came before you:
the people back then may have bin too simple minded to realise he was talking of all things??

But we believe they were just as smart as we are.

Second problem is related to the first. You seem to believe that the "BOOK" was laying around for 2000 years and NO ONE understood it until you came around.

Third problem, you admit you know little about Christianity and that the little that you think you know truly represents that religion. But no, we don't believe that religion COMES FROM a book. The Bible is the record of what God revealed to His people.

Fourth problem, you said that it is possible that God does not exist. No, that is not possible.

But you're saying that:
but I believe GOD is One and all. God is the energy that gives life, that makes it flow, that binds the biggest person to the smallest cell.

Is very close to the truth. God revealed that He is Yahweh. Some people pronounce it, "Jehovah". But it means the same thing. I AM WHO AM. As we understand it. It means that God is all which exists.

Sincerely,

You sounded a bit like the Cappadocians there for a minute. High praise indeed!

Nestorian,
Hey, I'm a Christian who sees no problem with the scientific idea that Mankind evolved from monkeys.
SOME Christians do have a problem with that but well over one billion do not.
Evolution was and still is a part of God's design of the entire universe.
That was and is a brilliant plan that science is still studying and discovering.
I believe that full scientific understanding of it all is still a long way off into the future.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred, please tell me you are joking about the evolution stiff, right?
If you are to believe the Bible at all then you must believe that man was created by God in his own image. And not Darwin's wild theory about man coming from apes.

Fred, please tell me you are joking about the evolution stiff, right?
If you are to believe the Bible at all then you must believe that man was created by God in his own image. And not Darwin's wild theory about man coming from apes.

Fred is Catholic as am I. And the Catholic Church permits us to believe in:

1. Strict Creationism.
2. Intelligent design.
3. Deistic Evolution (Not Darwin's Godless evolution)

All three are interpretations of the Word of God.

Sincerely,

450donn,
De Maria has already answered that for me.
Yes GOD IS the creator of all that is seen and unseen.
How He did it and how long he took is the problem with many.
I believe that God's creation is STILL working is the universe.
He set creation on a path of creation.
Even the stars are being created yet today, so says scientists and I believe that.
Even man, created in the image of God, is creating things; It seems faster now than ever before.
God's creation begets creations.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Fred is Catholic as am I. And the Catholic Church permits us to believe in:

1. Strict Creationism.
2. Intelligent design.
3. Deistic Evolution (Not Darwin's Godless evolution)

All three are interpretations of the Word of God.

Sincerely,

Now, you start to speak with intent to tell people that the Catholic Church speeks for you, and I am guessing GOD? Any man/woman who claims to know the will of GOD is a dangerous man/woman indeed.

Interpretations of the word GOD, do you realise that others say the same about your beliefs? So who is right? Personally, I see us only as travelers on a path, and non of us knows what awaits us, only what we are here and now. Thus "The past is history, the future is a mystery, today is a gift. That is why it's called the Present." Got to love the wisdom in that one eh? Ok, I Love it.




I'd say, "you're getting warm".

First problem that I see is that you don't trust the people who came before you:
the people back then may have bin too simple minded to realise he was talking of all things??

But we believe they were just as smart as we are.

Second problem is related to the first. You seem to believe that the "BOOK" was laying around for 2000 years and NO ONE understood it until you came around.

Third problem, you admit you know little about Christianity and that the little that you think you know truly represents that religion. But no, we don't believe that religion COMES FROM a book. The Bible is the record of what God revealed to His people.

Fourth problem, you said that it is possible that God does not exist. No, that is not possible.

But you're saying that:
but I believe GOD is One and all. God is the energy that gives life, that makes it flow, that binds the biggest person to the smallest cell.

Is very close to the truth. God revealed that He is Yahweh. Some people pronounce it, "Jehovah". But it means the same thing. I AM WHO AM. As we understand it. It means that God is all which exists.

Sincerely,

I did not say I didn't trust them, I just think people are subject to making mistakes. Weather those mistakes are because of misscomunication, assumptions, narrow mindedness, lack of awareness, intelegents, or other wise. I'm simply recognising that, and be mindful of such things. No foolishness in that eh? Considering we as "HUMANBEINGS" are always looking for ways to saticfiy our needs, problem is we never seem saticfied. So I don't view them as any different in the old days. That's all.

They are just as smart as we are, however, Knowledge travels faster these days. Thus we learn more, faster (perhaps not always a good thing.) but one thing is rather possible. We have a greater probability of seeing more of the picture due to our vast knowledge.

If I sound as though I assume that the "book" was lost and forgotten for 2000 years, I"m sorry. That is not what i ment. I ment was that what they had, they did not understand. And no i'm not mystical person who see's something everyone else missed. I'm just asking if it's a possibility that the words were not ment to be taken the way they are taken. I've seen too much hate and anger come from that. Especaily the greedy Gluttonous way we live today. Myself included, i've only began to see what is happening around me. I'm no saint, only a passer by who may give you something of value or not. Remember i believe you and I are one and the same. Same ideas, differnt expressions.

Once again, people put thier faith in the words of the Bible. Then i ask you again, if those words were missinterpreted, or misstranslated then what?? There are hoow many religions claiming that thiers is the one true religion. The one true path to GOD, but who's right? Does it matter, to me no, not really. To me they are all just differnt words expressing the path to GOD. In the end, i believe that GOD being all knowing, all "LOVING" would know as I do that people are just living thier lives the best they can. In my eyes i see no good or bad people, though i still say some are and are not and i get angered. Still i know, that no man/women is what s/he seems. I love all people, though im terrified by them. To me, we are still just animals, trying to get by. Sure we are capable of intelegent things, but that doesn't mean we have the wisdom to use that knowlege.

And now we come to some very sensitive stuff. "Is it possible that GOD does not exist? " Oh, it is possible, though i'd give you the fact that it does seem very unprobable. But it is possible. I do realise it is also possible that i'm wrong, and quite possible a little crazy, but the same goes for you, and any one else. I don't just see what is efore us, but what is around us, with in us, and that which connects us. DO you see how that is possible??

So yes, though you are absolutely correct, you are also wrong, and yet niether. No, you dont' see that some will agree with you, some will disagree, and then some wont care. As for me, i'm not sure who would agree with me, and believe that you are all three at once. Very confusing stuff, but nontheless real.

"all are one and one is all." --- LED-ZEP, stiarway to heaven.

At any rate take care, keep your faith in GOD. Because your relationship with GOD is not that of mine with GOD. (not good not bad, but notheless true.) Feel free to teach me more my brothers and sisters. I'll be wiating ;)

Nestorian,
First of all I believe the Bible Is the word of God so therefore true.
There were some errors in early translations but they have been corrected by experts who studied the earliest manuscripts and related documents.
Plus the fact that there is much archeological evidence that back up much of what the bible records.
Yes, you CAN trust the bible.
BUT you will only IF you want to.
Or you can continue with your many doubts.
Peace and kindness,
Have a happy Prosperous New Year,
Fred

Our brains and minds are not created to understand everything that's around us. Simple why would the Creator make us as smart as he. We will never reach to a point were we undestand everything around us, are minds are limited only to know what the Creator wanted us to know.

You do think there's a Creator of course?

Because nothing comes on their own.

complicatedlife,
Yes, I think you are right about that.
Happy Prosperous New Year,
Fred

The possibilities are endlass

... But there is only one absolute truth and to call good evil and evil good the Bible does say we will do that in the last days...
We do that now. As for a lot of the rest of what you said it is called moral relativism which can be very deceptive. Why call a branch a leg or a snake an angel of God? As long as you buy into moral relativism you will never be truly set free in your spiritual perspective.

Nestorian,
Hey, I'm a Christian who sees no problem with the scientific idea that Mankind evolved from monkeys.

Fred (arcura)

Sorry guys and gals that is not what the Bible teaches. Please tell me how the catholic or any church can say man came from monkeys when in Genesis 1:27 it clearly says GOD created man in His own image. If you believe that sort of garbage then you are telling me and the world that the catholic church believes that GOD is an ape!

I don't think there is enough evidence to say man came from apes, but I do think that there is a God, and no matter what you think He is, or isn't is a matter of opinion, or tradition, or whatever you have been taught, from whatever region, or culture your from.

The most important thing to me is your own personal relationship with what YOU understand your God to be, and put nothing between you.

That doesn't mean you can't celebrate tradition with others, as that's human, but whatever tradition you choose to embrace, it doesn't change the fact that all humans are made the same way, and that's not a coincidence.

It's that commonality that links us, and should be embraced, not fought over, no matter the culture, creed, or region we are from.

As usual though, man would rather fight over the mundane, trivial things, than embrace the fact he is an individual that is part of a whole.

We may have different brains that gives us different perspectives, and our free will to choose, but we all share human DNA, so we are all equal. Given a bit of thought, there is room for all our uniqueness, and commonality, if we as humans so choose.

Maybe one day we can all listen to each other, and hear the same thing, without the close minded filter of bias, or self interest.

450donn
Yes, God created man in His image.
The question is "How did He do it?"
I believe He did it through evolution.
It was God's planned design.
No God was never an ape or monkey.
The Creator God was/is a spirit whose word became flesh through the womb of a human woman named Mary.
I believe in God and the sciences which study His creations.
That's what I believe.
Of course you believe as you want to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yet you stated that man evolved from monkeys?
There is no question how God created man. Again Genesis 1:26/27 says "Then God said, Let US make man in OUR image according to Our likeness and let them rule over the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. God created man in his own image in the image of GOD he created him;male and female HE created them.
If YOU were to believe the bible at all there is no way that you can sit here and claim that man evolved from apes without saying that God is an ape! Fred, you really need to rethink your whole evolution theory garbage, because there is no where in the Bible where it states that God created apes to rule the world.

450donn,
Sorry but I can and I did say that God was not an ape.
I told you what I believe.
Please do not tell me what I can or can not say or believe.
I do believe the bible but obviously differently than you do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

I don't see it either how God would create an amoeba and it turn to an ape then to man. Where along the line did it become in his image? Were Adam and Eve fictional then or were they the first human life form to develop from the ape?

N0help4u,
I believe Adam and Eve were the first human beings with a God given soul.
That spirit is the image of God who is spirit. It would be thousands of years before God would be born as a man.
Peace and kindness
Fred

So one day there is the ape or whatever came before man with no soul and then one day Adam and Eve are born to this being with a soul?

NOhelp4U
Yup.
That's the way I believe God did it.
The monkeys evolved up to become a pro-man.
The next step up was a man when God gave him a soul.
But of course Gid could have doe it a different way.
That's OK with me.
I just find it interesting to wonder how God created everythung including mankind.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

NOhelp4U
Yup.
That's the way I believe God did it.
The monkeys evolved up to become a pro-man.
The next step up was a man when God gave him a soul.
But of course Gid could have doe it a different way.
That's OK with me.
I just find it interesting to wonder how God created everythung including mankind.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

So then you reject the Biblical account in Genesis?

Nope I do Not.
Don't try to accuse me of that.
You have done so before on other boards.
I just interpret some things in the bible MY way just like you do.

I can understand the gap theory to explain the earth existing before the 6 day creation but I have yet to figure away to explain monkeys to God creating Adam & Eve from dirt. I never have heard it explained to make both work together.

Nope I do Not.
Don't try to accuse me of that.
You have done so before on other boards.
I just interpret some things in the bible MY way just like you do.

Okay, so please explain how you manage to reconcile your belief in evolution and Genesis.

I can understand the gap theory to explain the earth existing before the 6 day creation but I have yet to figure away to explain monkeys to God creating Adam & Eve from dirt. I never have heard it explained to make both work together.

Yep. Not to mention the difficulties in explaining how and when sin entered the world relative to the gospel found in scripture and the account in Genesis.

I would like to hear it also.
Not only did God say he formed man from the dirt but
He also said he created each species according to its kind
So not only can we not have a monkey being with a horse but neither can we have a monkey giving birth to a man.
At least that is what I get from each according to its kind.

450donn,
Sorry but I can and I did say that God was not an ape.
I told you what I believe.
Please do not tell me what I can or can not say or believe.
I do believe the bible but obviously differently than you do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.
Fred, I still have to disagree. That is EXACTLY what you said, here is your original post:
Nestorian,
Hey, I'm a Christian who sees no problem with the scientific idea that Mankind evolved from monkeys.

So if man evolved from monkeys and God created man in HIS own image then you are saying that God is a monkey!
I hate to keep harping on this but your theory is so redicilous it is not even funny any longer.

:) Very good observations and theories, everyone. Inpressive, it takes a lot of strength to talk about such emotionaly charged ideas, eh?

So back to The word of GOD, or Science, or both, or none. ;)

NOHELP4U, you say that the one absolute truth is that we will call good evil and evil good in the last days. I"m afraid that this statement is not really absolute for every one. For i do not see things as Good nor Evil, only as beings on a road of thier own. That statement belongs only to you it seems; though, i do agree that The majority of the human race has seemed to have embraced the cold unforgiveing clutches of the Four horse-men: Pestialance, Strife, war/ Conquest, and DEATH. "Together we stand, divided we fall." Pestialance is STDs, and also drug abuse, especailly alcohol! On account it plagues the mind and literally stupidafies people, in larg amounts, but no that larg. Strife is global warming, the bug killed forests, and the lack of a market for farmers to have reason to keep farming. War is the wars in the middle east, africa, and all others. Conquest is the simmulare but for differnt reasons, the war on terror/drugs (quite a paradox don't you think?) Death is preaty self explanitory.

Complicatedlife it does seem rather implossible that we as human being could possible further advance our intelegents. But hear this, if we progressed from aps, to cavemen, then to women/men. What then is next?? FOr believe it or not we are capable of further progressing our intelegents. We don't know quite how the brain works but what we do know is that it is capable of amazing Feats. A man has a stroke looses feeling in his left side and is unable to use it for five long years. He is introduced to a new type of thearopy, where he is forced to used his left side. Not in leeps and bounds ofcourse but in small constant steps he learned to do simple tasks, like crawl around a flour. Then he got to bigger more difficult things like buttoning a shirt. We learn that our brains can rearange themselves to suit our needs. And who knows we wont start to have biological irredularities that will some day prove useful and advancing the human race??
As for there bing a creator, I say if there is there is. If not, then not. And what ever form this "creator" takes, i feel no concern for what it is. Just that it simply is. I am what i am, and it is what it is.
If God Ceated us with some preconcived plan and is knowing all, then really people have no free will, because he created things to play out how they are, which is fine. So because GOD created everything, you can't have a free will, you act becuase GOD made you act. But; that contradicts the bible does it not?? Hum, nothing comes on it's own, maybe?? Just remember that no energy can be created and no energy can be destroyed. Though this would not aply to GOD.

Acura I appolagise if i said you can't believe the bible, for it is very true that you can. I do mean that i will not put my trust in the bible, true it has a lot of great ideas, expressed for that time quite wonderfully. But if the book of GOD says you are to have "fiath" in GOD, then the problem with that idea is that the very book of GOD/ the word of GOD is evidence of GOD. Hummm, quite the brain twister eh? But just so you know I still believe there is a GOD. Crazy though it maybe I don't think people are made in GOD's immage. I believe GOD is one and all. But that is my path to GOD, maybe it's yours to, you just haven't found it. Then again maybe not, maybe you are on you path. But it's always nice to share what we learn, and how we feel. These are some of our reaces most interesting qualities.

So if man evolved from monkeys and God created man in HIS own image then you are saying that God is a monkey!
I hate to keep harping on this but your theory is so redicilous it is not even funny any longer.

So 450donn, HAve you ever thought the words "His own image" are referring to what GOD saw us to be? That is a very real possibility. I see that fitting much more realistically than GOD looking like us. Answer me that my brother, because I'd like to hear what you think.

That statement does not belong only to me, it may not apply to your thinking or the way you see things but it IS a general direction the world is taking. You can deny it all you want in your world but it does not make it not so... all you have to do is look at rap music and it is one good example.

Talaniman I like your Spunk kid, you got spirit, and wisdom to boot. Your answer, is very socialogicaly sensible. Epecailly the whole talk of cultural differneces, and how each relation ship with GOD is different. I would however like to think that no matter what you think GOD to be, GOD is all and one, therefor every one Percives GOD differntly, but GOD is still GOD no matter what we so choose to think. Just as a branch is a branch, and a snake is a snake, but anyone and believe that they are GOD. Any one understand?

All humans are made the same. I like this idea. So very true. People of all different shapes and sizes, different mentalities, and so on. All are created the same, by birth. There are a few other simularities that most people over look. Every person does the best they can, for themselves, to servive/ live/or at just being. And since we are not ALL KNOWING we can not really know what will happen form one moment to the next. We are fairly aware of ourselves and the differnce between right and wrong. However, differnet cultures demand different ideals. The conflict of interest is, are we right to kill others to defend ourselves? How do we not know that if we live on while others do not, then we bring about the detruction of society, or the balance of the world. Look at the western society how much do we wast, and look at south america the rainforest they kill to make a buck, and yet we do the same thing. I live in a forestry city, and it's all dead or dying. The forests I mean. IT's sad, because not only are the aniamls left with no home, nor places to hunt, but also the very thing we need to breath, we kill its source to suit other less inportant needs, FUN. We are equil in that very few will admit that they are wrong, very few will give with out expecting to receive, very few will admit that their way is not the only way, very few will see the plants and animals as necessities to our servival, and so on. So do you see just how alike we all are? Everyone is trying to survive the best the know how, and still judge others for doing the same thing. Pitty, but that is the way things are, no? Doesn't have to be.

Though I do like how you put it Talaniman. I tend to ramble and wonder, so very well siad my friend. Best of wishes to you.

That statement does not belong only to me, it may not apply to your thinking or the way you see things but it IS a general direction the world is taking. You can deny it all you want in your world but it does not make it not so....all you have to do is look at rap music and it is one good example.

Fair enough, but in relevance to this very conversation, it is your's your statement you just said it.

The world is not dead yet, and we are not gone. It may seem like it's taking that direction, but we can still choose other wise.

NOhelp4U,
I go by modern recognized science on the evolution of monkeys to human beings. That starts with evolution from dirt where a lot of things started from.
I go by the bible that God made the humans or persons with a soul whose immediate ancestors were pro-man evolved from monkeys...
There are a great many things the bible DOES NOT explain in detail including the billions of years of creation and the millions of years of evolution.
That is explained by modern science.
I am very familiar with the strict creationist belief for I believed that for many years.
Now I reconcile modern science with what the bible says and interpret it my way which I have already posted.
As I mentioned, God could have created it differently and that is OK with me.
There are a number of different interpretations. I merely mentioned mine.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

So back to The word of GOD, or Science, or both, or none. ;)

No choice required between these two. I have a background in science, and I hold to belief in the Biblical account because it matches the evidence found in science and is in concert with scripture.

NOhelp4U,
I go by modern recognized science on the evolution of monkeys to human beings. That starts with evolution from dirt where a lot of things started from.

What scientific evidence proves man evolved from apes?

Is the idea that Fred is now supposed to summarize the last 150 years of work in biology? Evolutionary biology has shown--or, in deference to those who reject its findings, claims to have shown--that modern humans and apes descend from a common ancestor (not from a monkey). Reject this if you like. While you're at it, why not revert to the geocentric model of the solar system? Evolution isn't a threat to anything, and neither is post-Ptolemaic astronomy.

No choice required between these two. I have a background in science, and I hold to belief in the Biblical account because it matches the evidence found in science and is in concert with scripture.

True there is no choice is needed, because the two ideas are one and the same. Or so I believe. But yes very good idea, I like it.

Is the idea that Fred is now supposed to summarize the last 150 years of work in biology? Evolutionary biology has shown--or, in deference to those who reject its findings, claims to have shown--that modern humans and apes descend from a common ancestor (not from a monkey). Reject this if you like.

I do reject it, because that is only an assumption made by some people. Remember, I have a scientific background.

And no, I am not asking him to summarize 150 years of research - my question was simple and straightforward. If he claims that science has proven man evolved from a monkey (that was Fred's claim), then he must have proof upon which he made that statement.

Of course you are welcome to bring forward the proof of your claim also.


While you're at it, why not revert to the geocentric model of the solar system? Evolution isn't a threat to anything, and neither is post-Ptolemaic astronomy.

Of course you know that this argument is also a logic fallacy.

So 450donn, HAve you ever thought the words "His own image" are referring to what GOD saw us to be?? That is a very real possiblity. I see that fitting much more realistically than GOD looking like us. Answer me that my brother, because i'd like to hear what you think.


I see it as how God looked at himself and decided how we should look. I am no expert either in science or the Bible, so I have to accept one as true and one as , well who knows. Because science is what people today believe to be the truth. But doesn't science still hold to the 'big bang theory" Of course that is not what the Bible teaches. Same as this evolution garbage. People with lots of letters behind their names believe themselves smarter that the creator of the Universe and believe that they can answer in some scientific terms how everything happened. Until that is they discover something new that throws their theories all out the window. Or they have to adjust their original theory to fit the new discovery.
Now if you were to ask me if the human race has changed in the last several thousand years? I would have to answer yes! But that we came from monkeys? Come on now, that is Darwinism pure and simple. If Fred or any other of his catholic brothers can believe that stuff and can twist the bible to accommodate Darwin's far fetched theories then I have to believe that the catholic church has strayed farther away from God than I originally thought.

Remember, I have a scientific background.

As do those who work on evolutionary biology. But your expertise does not lie there but in engineering, so you don't qualify as an expert.


Of course you are welcome to bring forward the proof of your claim also.

Which would require summarizing the findings of evolutionary biology.


Of course you know that this argument is also a logic fallacy.

Okay, one more time, there can only be a fallacy where there is an argument. What you quoted from my post wasn't an argument, it was a statement. Here's an example of a fallacy:
1. If A then B.
2. Not A.
3. Therefore not B.

That's an argument. It's a fallacy (denying the antecedent).

The following Scriptures claim that the earth doesn't move: Ps.93.1, 96.10, 104.5, I Chronicles 16.30. (But see, esp. Ps.104.5). Am I to believe, then, that you reject the heliocentric model of the solar system? Does the earth not rotate on its axis?

And the term is "logical fallacy". "Logic" is a noun; "logical" is an adjective used to modify the noun "fallacy"--it tells us what kind of fallacy it is, namely a logical one.

As do those who work on evolutionary biology. But your expertise does not lie there but in engineering, so you don't qualify as an expert.

I do not claim to be an experts, but I have taken University level biology courses. In any case, if you and Fred claim to be able to assess that it has been proven that man evolved from monkeys or other animals, then surely you must have some evidence upon which you made that statement, and presumably it does not take expertise in evolutionary biology to make that claim, so spout forth!


Which would require summarizing the findings of evolutionary biology.

Not at all - the question is very specific. Clearly you made your assessment based upon something - or are you saying that you have thoroughly studied all evolutionary biology for the past 150 years to come to your conclusion?


Okay, one more time, there can only be a fallacy where there is an argument. What you quoted from my post wasn't an argument, it was a statement.

You may not have a background in logic, but you did indeed suggest a relationship between these two claims which you suggested validated your approach, but not mine.

Now I see that you are also trying to distract from the question with more unrelated claims. How about we deal with those separately once you have answered the question asked, and validated your prior claim.

I do not claim to be an experts, but I have taken University level biology courses. In any case, if you and Fred claim to be able to assess that it has been proven that man evolved from monkeys or other animals, then surely you must have some evidence upon which you made that statement, and presumably it does not take expertise in evolutionary biology to make that claim, so spout forth!



Not at all - the question is very specific. Clearly you made your assessment based upon something - or are you saying that you have thoroughly studied all evolutionary biology for the past 150 years to come to your conclusion?



You may not have a background in logic, but you did indeed suggest a relationship between these two claims which you suggested validated your approach, but not mine.

Now I see that you are also trying to distract from the question with more unrelated claims. How about we deal with those separately once you have answered the question asked, and validated your prior claim.

Suggesting a relationship and giving an argument are two different animals. As I've already indicated, I can see no reasonable way to satisfy your demand for proof short of summarizing decades of work in evolutionary biology. So here I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

You are okay with Ptolemaic astronomy, then? If the Bible is to be our standard of the adequacy of scientific explanations, then we are to reject everything from Copernicus onward (which means rejecting Kepler's laws of planetary motion, which means rejecting Newton, which means rejecting... you get the idea.)

Suggesting a relationship and giving an argument are two different animals.

I am not going to spend my time here trying to explain the rules of logic to you.


As I've already indicated, I can see no reasonable way to satisfy your demand for proof short of summarizing decades of work in evolutionary biology.

That is not true, as anyone familiar with evolutionary biology (or probably science in general) could tell you.


So here I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Then you have no basis for your statement. That is just a cop out because there is no validation for such a claim. Let's see if Fred can dig up anything which validates his claim that man evolved from monkeys.

I am not going to spend my time here trying to explaining the rules of logic to you.

LMAO! Yeah, 'cause you'd have to learn them first.


That is not true, as anyone familiar with evolutionary biology could tell you.

If you say so.


Then you have no basis for your statement.

And that follows from what, now?

I guess it's bye, bye Copernicus? So there aren't really satellites in orbit, that's just a hoax (like the Moon landing).

LMAO! Yeah, 'cause you'd have to learn them first.

Ah, yes, the usual approach - when you cannot deal with the issue, attack the person. I see that this thread is likely to take the usual course and then get shut down.



If you say so.

I do, because I know what I am talking about on the topic.



And that follows from what, now?

Your claim that man evolved from something else remains unvalidated and thus there is no reason to consider that to be a val,id claim or statement, and most certainly not, as you presented it, a statement of fact.

If you wish to discuss a topic, you cannot just blindly claim something as fact and then demand that it be accepted as such. You need to validate your claim.


I guess it's bye, bye Copernicus? So there aren't really satellites in orbit, that's just a hoax (like the Moon landing).

See there's that old logic fallacy again. You really should grab a book on logic - it is a fascinating topic.

Unless of course you are one of those conspiracy theorists who really believe this - which I guess is possible. If you be,lieve that man evolved from some other undefined animal with evidence, then I guess that it is possible that you believe that man landing on the moon is a hoax also.