What is the relationship of Baptism and salvation?

The Bible says repent and be baptized
Baptism is a spiritual cleansing and a proclamation to express your commitment,
I believe baptism comes after you repent because you can't 'cleanse' what is still in its sin,

The Bible says repent and be baptized
Baptism is a spiritual cleansing and a proclamation to express your commitment,
I believe baptism comes after you repent because you can't 'cleanse' what is still in its sin,

Would you suggest that faith is required before baptism?

God (in the form of His Holy Spirit) comes to us where we are and begins to work faith in us. Baptism is one of the means of grace, one of the avenues, used.

Does anybody that doesn't have faith feel a need to get baptized?
I would say it would be a requirement because I don't see any non believers running out to get baptized,

You can baptize an infant but they should get baptized as an adult as the Bible says Repent and be baptized

I would say it would be a requirement because I don't see any non believers running out to get baptized
I do and have for many, many years.

I do and have for many, many years.

I see professing Christians being baptized but not people who claim they have NO belief in God.

I see professing Christians being baptized but not people who claim they have NO belief in God.
Then please attend some Lutheran baptisms.

Infants are baptized; surly they aren't cognizant of an unmerited grace. Or do you feel that children can't be baptized?

JoeT

Yeah you do have a point there but they do infant baptism as a tradition of the church. I am saying a grown person not having any faith or repentance wanting to get baptized as an adult,
I grew up Lutheran and know that many Lutheran churches are more like social clubs,

We've had threads like this before, and this one won't go anywhere either. There's the infant-baptism crowd and, opposing them, the adults-only crowd. Never the twain shall meet.

I see nothing wrong with infant baptism, In Acts they told a whole house to be baptized, There could have been kids in that household,
I just believe that once you are grown you should reaffirm your faith by baptism,
Your parents baptize you when you are an infant that is THEIR faith or their motives not yours, You should reaffirm it for your own faith when you are grown,

I see nothing wrong with infant baptism, In Acts they told a whole house to be baptized, There could have been kids in that household,
I just believe that once you are grown you should reaffirm your faith by baptism,
Your parents baptize you when you are an infant, You should reaffirm it for your own faith when you are grown,
That's the reason churches have Confirmation, to reaffirm Baptism.

In the Lutheran churches I've belonged to (none of which were "social clubs"), if an adult has never been baptized, he/she studies for x number of weeks (depends on Bible and church doctrine knowledge), then is baptized and confirmed. Confirmation is a lead-in to the taking of Holy Communion.

God (in the form of His Holy Spirit) comes to us where we are and begins to work faith in us. Baptism is one of the means of grace, one of the avenues, used.

Then is baptism necessary?

Then is baptism necessary?
Necessary for what -- For salvation? For church membership? To rate a big party and gifts?

That's the reason churches have Confirmation, to reaffirm Baptism.

In the Lutheran churches I've belonged to (none of which were "social clubs"), if an adult has never been baptized, he/she studies for x number of weeks (depends on Bible and church doctrine knowledge), then is baptized and confirmed. Confirmation is a lead-in to the taking of Holy Communion.

Those not in full communion with the Catholic Church can be reconciled, even those who once denied the Church. Those would not be possible if faith were required. Catholics hold that baptism is the remission of all sin, original and actual, as well as, the temporal punishment of sin. The second effect of baptism is to infuse a sanctifying grace “perfecting the essence of the soul… it is a certain participated likeness of the Divine Nature.”

The effects of baptism remains for life renewed when the soul cooperates with the graces conferred. These graces remain whether Confirmation is made. However, Confirmation, confers a chrism of salvation. Confirmation perfects the Christian.

JoeT

Necessary for what -- For salvation? For church membership? To rate a big party and gifts?

Well, I’ve heard from some of you that the grace of faith was necessary before baptism, and we know that without baptism we cannot enter the Kingdom of God. So, my question to you was, “is baptism necessary”; i.e. for salvation?

JoeT

Those not in full communion with the Catholic Church can be reconciled, even those who once denied the Church. Those would not be possible if faith were required.
JoeT

So are you are you saying that faith is not required?

Well, I’ve heard from some of you that the grace of faith was necessary before baptism, and we know that without baptism we cannot enter the Kingdom of God. So, my question to you was, “is baptism necessary”; i.e. for salvation?

JoeT
I say no. If someone is unbaptized and is dying and honestly asks God for forgiveness, I do not believe God will condemn him.

God looks into a person's heart. He doesn't check first to make sure someone has been baptized.

That's the reason churches have Confirmation, to reaffirm Baptism.

In the Lutheran churches I've belonged to (none of which were "social clubs"), if an adult has never been baptized, he/she studies for x number of weeks (depends on Bible and church doctrine knowledge), then is baptized and confirmed. Confirmation is a lead-in to the taking of Holy Communion.

Confirmation is religion and I really don't see it in the Bible, I left the Lutheran church because I just don't see how the church formulas get you 'saved' I did the confirmation and baptism when I was in High school exactly the way you just said,

Confirmation is religion and I really don't see it in the Bible, I left the Lutheran church because I just don't see how the church formulas get you 'saved' I did the confirmation and baptism when I was in High school exactly the way you just said,
Those rites do not save you. If that's what you were taught, I would have quit too.

***ADDED -- The creation of faith is exclusively God's work. It does not depend on the actions of either the infant or adult baptized. Even though baptized infants cannot articulate that faith, I believe that the Holy Spirit is very capable of installing it even in an infant.

No they didn't teach it was for salvation that is what I thought you and Joe were getting at, I left because I wanted a more Bible based Church

No they didn't teach it was for salvation that is what I thought you and Joe were getting at, I left because I wanted a more Bible based Church
The Lutheran Church is VERY Bible-based.

I added this above while you were posting to my comment --

***ADDED -- The creation of faith is exclusively God's work. It does not depend on the actions of either the infant or adult baptized. Even though baptized infants cannot articulate that faith, I believe that the Holy Spirit is very capable of installing it even in an infant.

Yes I believe you can have faith as an infant because I always knew I had my faith even before I knew of God when I was even 2, But I believe the Bible teaches repent and be saved. As a child repentance is not an issue,

So you don't believe children do anything wrong that they can be sorry for?

The Bible says they are not at the age of accountability

Confirmation is religion and I really don't see it in the Bible, I left the Lutheran church because I just don't see how the church formulas get you 'saved' I did the confirmation and baptism when I was in High school exactly the way you just said,

Confirmation:

As I understand it, Confirmation could be viewed as Church Tradition rooted in the Acts of the Apostles.

Acts 8:14 Now, when the apostles, who were in Jerusalem, had heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John. 15 Who, when they were come, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost. 16 For he was not as yet come upon any of them: but they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands upon them: and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19: 1 And it came to pass, while Apollo was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper coasts, came to Ephesus and found certain disciples. 2 And he said to them: Have you received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? But they said to him: We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost. 3 And he said: In what then were you baptized? Who said: In John's baptism. 4 Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance saying: That they should believe in him, who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus. 5 Having heard these things, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had imposed his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

JoeT

The Bible says they are not at the age of accountability
Where is that?

This is what it is
Where do I find the age of accountability in the Bible? What happens to babies and young children when they die? (http://www.gotquestions.org/age-of-accountability.html)

I am not following you. You said that you have seen many many people without faith get baptized yet you said that the Lutheran church is not a social club. So why would many get baptized without faith and go to church then? That is what I call a social club.

I see nothing wrong with infant baptism, In Acts they told a whole house to be baptized, There could have been kids in that household,
I just believe that once you are grown you should reaffirm your faith by baptism,
Your parents baptize you when you are an infant that is THEIR faith or their motives not yours, You should reaffirm it for your own faith when you are grown,

Babies can be baptized, but since it does not save adults, it will not save babies. It is, however, a means of dedicating a child, because the term, "baptized" also means to be identified with, and by baptizing an infant, you are identifying that child with the salvation that is in Christ, and dedicating yourself to bring up the child in the truth of scripture, and in the knowledge of the gospel. The Baby will then, in is hoped, grow up to be a m,an or woman of God who will be saved by receiving Christ as save and then desire to participate in believer's baptism as an adult.

Those not in full communion with the Catholic Church can be reconciled, even those who once denied the Church. Those would not be possible if faith were required. Catholics hold that baptism is the remission of all sin, original and actual, as well as, the temporal punishment of sin. The second effect of baptism is to infuse a sanctifying grace “perfecting the essence of the soul… it is a certain participated likeness of the Divine Nature.”

Then you are saying that baptism is necessary as a entrance requirement for membership in your denomination.

Babies can be baptized, but since it does not save adults, it will not save babies. It is, however, a means of dedicating a child, because the term, "baptized" also means to be identified with, and by baptizing an infant, you are identifying that child with the salvation that is in Christ, and dedicating yourself to bring up the child in the truth of scripture, and in the knowledge of the gospel. The Baby will then, in is hoped, grow up to be a m,an or woman of God who will be saved by receiving Christ as save and then desire to participate in believer's baptism as an adult.
Please don't limit the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is fully and completely capable of working faith in an infant, just as He does in an adult.

Please don't limit the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is fully and completely capable of working faith in an infant, just as He does in an adult.

An infant cannot receive Christ as Saviour through the knowledge of the gospel because they are not able to understand the gospel. Further, being baptized as an infant is not their decision, therefore it is not an act of faith on the part of the infant.

This has nothing to do with limiting the ability of the Holy Spirit.

I agree with Tj
Nobody is limiting the Holy Spirit by believing in adult baptism. A baby can have faith but how can it choose to be baptized. Baptism is something that should be done with comprehension and decision that a baby is not capable of.

When the Bible talks more on adult baptism and has virtually nothing much to say on infant baptism I do not understand why people seem to have such a problem accepting adult baptism.

An infant cannot receive Christ as Saviour through the knowledge of the gospel because they are not able to understand the gospel. Further, being baptized as an infant is not their decision, therefore it is not an act of faith on the part of the infant.

This has nothing to do with limiting the ability of the Holy Spirit.
It has everything to do with the power of the Holy Spirit! You are saying He cannot work faith in an infant. He also works faith in adults, who can only say no. Human understanding comes later as the individual grows in grace and in the knowledge of the Gospel.

It has everything to do with the power of the Holy Spirit! You are saying He cannot work faith in an infant. He also works faith in adults, who can only say no. Human understanding comes later as the individual grows in grace and in the knowledge of the Gospel.

An adult understands what they are deciding. An infant does not. And in any case it would not matter because if indeed you were right (despite what scripture says), then you have defeated the argument about baptism because, If you are correct, then baptism has nothing to do with salvation since the baby makes no decision to be baptized, but would be given faith without baptism.

However, as I say, this becomes a moot point since the infant cannot profess their faith, therefore you do not even have that much evidence and this belief is not scriptural.

Thus it is at best a opinion or speculation, but has nothing to do with any discussion of the ability of the Holy Spirit. God speaks to us about the working of the Holy Spirit in scripture. If we go beyond scripture (contrary to what scripture itself says to do), then we are into the realm of opinion.

If you are correct, then baptism has nothing to do with salvation since the baby makes no decision to be baptized, but would be given faith without baptism.
Jesus said to baptize all nations. Babies are included in "all nations" since "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (NIV Rom. 3:23).

I am correct. Salvation comes through faith instilled by the Holy Spirit "Who brings me to faith and keeps me in that faith."

As I said earlier in this thread, God doesn't have a checklist handy when someone dies to make sure that individual has been baptized--or off to hell he goes.

Jesus said to baptize all nations. Babies are included in "all nations" since "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (NIV Rom. 3:23).

Babies are not a nation. That argument, taken to its logical conclusion would have us baptizing everyone, whether they received Christ or not because they are part of a "nation".


I am correct. Salvation comes through faith instilled by the Holy Spirit "Who brings me to faith and keeps me in that faith."

Where does it say in scripture that babies are saved through faith in Christ?


As I said earlier in this thread, God doesn't have a checklist handy when someone dies to make sure that individual has been baptized--or off to hell he goes.

Agreed. That was my point. Baptism is not required for salvation.

The thing is not about WHEN they got faith. It is about being able to acknowledge that faith with an adult like reasoning that a baby does not have.

The thing is not about WHEN they got faith. It is about being able to acknowledge that faith with an adult like reasoning that a baby does not have.

Exactly!

Baptism alone doesn't make us Catholic, so in that sense baptism conducted in the proper form and with proper matter will be recognized by the Church.

A person, understanding the sacrament of baptism, of his own free will be judged accordingly; “…unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5

Those with a desire for baptism and die unexpectedly or those martyred will be judged accordingly: “But he is a Jew that is one inwardly and the circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter: whose praise is not of men, but of God.” Rom 2: 29

JoeT

Baptism alone doesn't make us Catholic, so in that sense baptism conducted in the proper form and with proper matter will be recognized by the Church.

Personally I am interested in the topic, "Baptism and Salvation" not baptism and the entrance requirements for any specific denomination.



A person, understanding the sacrament of baptism, of his own free will be judged accordingly; “…unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5

Let's look at it in the context of scripture:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Note that he equates the water with the flesh, being born in the flesh, and being born again with being born in the spirit. This is not speaking about water baptism. Different topic.

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

What did children do to be named holy?Nothing!!!How are they holy? By the parents!!!If a parent is holy then the children are also until their time of accountability!No baptism required , the baptism of the parents works for them!

Babies are not a nation. That argument, taken to its logical conclusion would have us baptizing everyone, whether they received Christ or not because they are part of a "nation".
Babies are included in "all nations" as are unbelievers who Jesus also commands His followers to baptize and teach/preach the Gospel to.


Where does it say in scripture that babies are saved through faith in Christ?
Jesus said "baptize all nations" and "suffer the little children to come unto Me." Since baptism (New Covenant) replaced circumcision (Old Covenant), baptism must be for children also. Origen wrote in the 3rd century that "the Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism also to infants" (the apostles baptized entire households including children and slaves). Most of the mainstream churches believe in and practice infant baptism. These mainstream churches believe that the power of the Holy Spirit allows even infants to receive faith, that the Spirit begins the work of faith in them.

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

What did children do to be named holy?Nothing!!!How are they holy? By the parents!!!If a parent is holy then the children are also until their time of accountability!No baptism required , the baptism of the parents works for them!

Where does it say that the baptism of the parents makes them holy?

1 Peter 1:17-20
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
NKJV

Babies are included in "all nations" as are unbelievers who Jesus also commands His followers to baptize and teach/preach the Gospel to.

But in no case are we told to baptize those who have not received Christ as Saviour.

And in no case are we told baptism is effective for salvation.

We are not arguing that those who receive Christ as Saviour should not be baptized.

As I mentioned previously baptism is the remission of all sin, original and actual. With this remission is the removal of all temporal punishment. It was given the Church to for the purpose of glorification; “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church and delivered himself up for it: That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: That he might present it to himself, a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph 5:25-27 Baptism also infuses sanctifying graces that become stronger with a synergistic cooperation through works, as it were becoming adopted sons of God (Cf. 1 Cor 3:16). An infant baptized and raised in a Christian home will benefit in learning these graces early in life.

JoeT

As I mentioned previously baptism is the remission of all sin, original and actual. With this remission is the removal of all temporal punishment.

Where is this in scripture?

1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

“ …unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5

“This is not speaking about water baptism,” Tj3.

All the Fathers of the Church until the current age have understood John 3:5 to refer to baptism.

JoeT

“ …unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5

Let’s look at it in the context of scripture:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Note that he equates the water with the flesh, being born in the flesh, and being born again with being born in the spirit. This is not speaking about water baptism. Different topic.


All the Fathers of the Church until the current age have understood John 3:5 to refer to baptism.

Really? Your should get out more ;)

I know of many church leaders who disagree with your position. But in any case, this is not a matter for a vote. The one person who matters spoke in scripture and told us what he meant.

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

>Thread Closed<
As ever it's becoming circular.