All my life, I've questioned things, never thought id question god though, I just don't believe, I kind of don't want to believe, but its depressing, hearing about hell, because I know I'm going to die young, what can I do, to get back mt faith

You can't believe in hell if you don't believe in God. That is unless you think you are living in hell now. I think you are just in a period of your life where you are doubting things and as you get older things wilol work themselves out.

You can't believe in hell if you don't believe in God. That is unless you think you are living in hell now. I think you are just in a period of your life where you are doubting things and as you get older things wilol work themselves out.

Well like I said before, I kind of don't want to believe, because of hell, for a long time now, I have had a feeling that I'm going to die young

Many religions teach about hell as a literal place where God punishes us for our badness and unfaithfulness, but by searching the scriptures and learning about God's personality, we begin to realize that it's not a real place but figurative.

Can you believe that God is so loving and merciful and kind, yet at the same time allows the torment of humans to carry on forever and ever? How just is that when we only live out a mere 80 - 90yrs as imperfect beings and as a consequence of being bad we suffer for all eternity? Does that not sound more like the Devil's personality?
Our wonderful creator didn't intend this for us any more than you would intend to force your own child's arm into a raging fire for being disobedient.

Some come to a point in their life when they begin to question or doubt certain church teachings and this is understandable considering some of the main doctrines taught by Christendom are not found in the bible such as the Trinity, an immortal soul, hellfire and purgatory.

In John 8:32 Jesus says "YOU will know the truth and the truth will set YOU free." How wonderful it is to know that according to his word, God intends us to live in a beautiful paradise earth forever without death or sickness or Satan to tempt us. In this sense, ones who find the true meaning of the scriptures are set free from Christendom's false teachings and can focus not on the uncertain but on what is certain.

If the desire is there in your heart, God will draw you to him but you need to ask him for help, even to say "God, help me find the truth."

Hell is a real place, And while God is love, he sent his Son as a method of being saved from Hell.
If hell was not real, there would be reason for Christ to have come.

As for as dying young, 50 is young, so is 60. You have no idea unless you are living in a drug culture and will not leave it, or unless you are living a life style that leads to death.

Moparbyfar,
From where in the bible did you get the idea that hell is just a figurative place?
I never heard of that before.
I really want to know.
Please provide the Scripture indication of such.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Listen!

artlady
To who or what?
Fred

For Arcura: this is a reply I made to the thread titled Why did God make hell:


Interestingly, way back in King James' time, the word hell simply meant grave or hole.

If you were to compare scriptures mentioning fire and sulphur or eternal torment with other scrpitures explaining the state of the dead, e.g. - (Rev 14:9-11) he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur... the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever etc; (Rev 21:8)... their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur.
Then compare with (Eccl 9:5) the dead are conscious of nothing at all; (Psa 146:3) his spirit goes out, {the same way a flame goes when you blow it out} he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish, does it make sense to you that the fire and sulphur must then be symbolic?

Think about Sodom and Gomorrah. In that time, God rained fire and sulphur down on the inhabitants of these cities for their gross sins completely destroying them, saving only faithful Lot and his 2 daughters. The bible writer Jude speaks of these cities as being an everlasting fire. But are they literally? Also 2 Thess 1:6-9 states that Jesus will bring vengeance on those not obeying and that they will undergo the punishment of everlasting destruction.

So from just a few scriptures it is possible to see that PHYSICAL eternal torment is not accurate, but rather as it says at the end of Rev 21:8 - it means the second death (no chance of everlasting life).

Moparbyfar.
Thanks for your answer to my request.
But...
No, I do not see that.
Rather I understand hell to be as Jesus described it
Nowhere did Jesus indicated that he was talking about hell being symbolic.
Jesus even gave us an example of what hell was like when He talked about a person in hell asking to warn those still in mortal body about hell.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Agree with Moparbyfar. All copys of the bible are extremely old . Even the new jerusalem bible has many errors in it. All the bibles out there people are reading have been translated over centerys in error . In fact jesus didn't even die on a cross in the original hebrew text he died on stake . The new testament is grossly miss translated and the copys being read today have been translated over 1,000 times through the centerys . Hell which we call it simply means grave . Also there are many errors in the book of revelation . Man won't burn in ever lasting fire . He will be burnt up into ash . Only the devil and his angels will burn forever .

I have posted a post bible miss translations it discusses miss translations of the bible and it shows the original text .

Again you have to remember your reading a book that has many errors in it and that's thousands of years old .

Hell
There are three Greek words rendered "hell" in the New Testament: gehenna, hades (equivalent of Hebrew sheol used in the Old Testament), and tartaroo. Gehenna is the lake of fire, hades is the grave and tartaroo is the abyss, the place of restraint for Satan. For English speaking people during the time of King James, "hell" [hades] was a cellar to store potatoes, not a lake of burning brimstone. In Acts 2:27, "hell" is hades, meaning the grave, while in Matthew 10: 28 and Mark 9:43-48 "hell" means the lake of fire. The only place tartaroo is used is in 2 Peter 2:4.

Well looks like my post of bible miss translations was deleted by some of the higher up who run this site . I think that's called dirty pool .

If anyone wants to read the original bible translations hollar at me and I'll send you the link .

ironsheik7,
Sorry but I disagree strongly.
The modern day translations are the most accurate ever published. That is a fact.
Those I mentioned ARE the best.
There are sects who disagree but I agree with the very best scholars.
As example, there is NO evidence that Jesus was stuck up on a stake but there s much evidence, biblical and historical, that he was crucified on a cross.
The terms for hell are all different was of saying hell. When Jesus referred to gehena, which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where GARBAGE was burned, He was using that as a symbol if what hell was like, burning garbage sinners.
We are very much more fortunate than people in many years past for the modern bibles we have today ARE the very best EVER printed.
True, there are some sects that publish their own bibles but they have been PROVEN to be inaccurate because they were PURPOSELY printed to say what the sect wanted to believe, not what authentic Holy Scripture does say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Jesus even gave us an example of what hell was like when He talked about a person in hell asking to warn those still in mortal body about hell.

Hmm are you referring to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? This is a reply I gave to someone on the same subject.


Quote:
Lazarus and the rich man.
If we look at the setting in vs 14 of Luke Chap 4, it shows how the Pharisees were listening and sneering at the things Jesus was saying. So he used this illustration of Lazarus and the rich man to show these religious leaders that although they think they may be first in line for the kingdom, they were in fact to miss out on sitting at the "table of God" (the bosom position of Abraham), unlike the ones like Lazarus who were despised and neglected, but they would enjoy the benefits of the kingdom first.

Quote:
"and the rich man was buried and in Hades was in torment."

This death symbolizes the end of the religious leaders privileges and advantages that they once held as God's chosen people because they were now arrogant and haughty to the Lazarus type ones. By comparing Psalm 31:17 or Psalm 115:17, Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek) which is the common grave of man, seems to be a place where one cannot even speak so this tells me also that it is an illustration and not an actual event in history.

Quote:
"hear Moses and the Prophets"

... or the OT. This rich man does not want to hear and listen to words from the OT but in fact wants to see signs of proof in order for his "brothers" to repent or show true faith. By wanting his tongue cooled by Lazarus would have meant he would have to leave the favored position of God to preach nice soothing words to him and make him feel that he was still good in the public's eyes.

The fact too that there are 5 brothers makes them 6 in total - a number used in the bible for imperfection and sin. They represented the natural descendants of Abraham, or the Israelites, who as we know were rejected by God (Matt 21:43).

Obviously meant as something figurative not literal.

Moparbyfar ,
That may be an illusion to you but it is not to me because there are so very many references to hell in the Bible, particularly in the New Testament where Jesus Chrsit, God the Son and His apostles speak of it.
And...
Nope.
I was referring to His use of the name of the garbage dump named Gehenna where sinful trash will be burned with fire.
Just look up all of the bible references to the word burn as it relates to punishment.
Hell exists as a real place; an abode of anguish for lost souls.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Just look up all of the bible references to the word burn as it relates to punishment.
Thanks I have done so many times, and still come to the same conclusion... that the place Gehenna (from the Hebrew words meaning valley of Hinnom) is a meaning of everlasting, complete destruction, no hope of a resurrection. At the end of the day Arcura, we just have to agree to disagree because we both know our differing stances are not wavered. Much respect. :)

Being honest we will all day find out everything . And I have a feeling alott of what we think we know about the bible isn't going to be the way it really is . There are so many questions I myself want to ask god. Is there really a hell , is there an eternal burning , are we burnt up in ash , was indeed your words in the english bible miss translated as I have read in searching. Or Just a lie to keep us from your words which were correct .

Was the earth recreated after a battle with lucifer ? Or was that a lie ? What about dinosuars where did they come in ? Exactly how old is the planet earth ? Are there other life forms ,other people you have made that we were never told about . This seems highly unlikely (but you never know)

So many questions what was the purpose of the solar system. And galaxys and the whole universe its self . Why a moon ?

I want to know and see what an angel is what it looks like?
What god looks like.

So many questions we have of what awaits us . That we could argue up till the second coming. I hope I'm lucky enough to be on gods good side come my death and not the bad.

I look forward to meeting you one day in heaven arcura .

A-man and merry christmas . Everybody

Ironsheik7.
Those are all good questions.
I also hope to meet you in heaven and hear you ask them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

hell is a real place, And while God is love, he sent his Son as a method of being saved from Hell.
If hell was not real, there would be reason for Christ to have come.

As for as dying young, 50 is young, so is 60. You have no idea unless you are living in a drug culture and will not leave it, or unless you are living a life style that leads to death.

You believe this because you believe what you read in the bible is the be all and end all of God. Not everyone who thinks there is a "god" or higher power believes that the bible is a flawless account of gods word.


I don't believe a loving god would ever condemn his child to an eternity of hell.
I don't believe in a god that would set up a "test" for us. Pass it, and you are accepted, fail it and you go to hell. This is absurd.
I don't believe in a god that would condemn you to hell for being gay. You are who you are if anything I feel that we should show kindness, mercy and acceptance of gays because it is not an easy life. Count yourself lucky if you were not born like this and have to deal with the disapproval of so many christians , rednecks and "tuff guy" sorts.
I don't believe in a god that would purposely flood the earth and kill every living soul with the exception of one family.

Just because you read something in the bible doesn't make it fact.

ironsheik7,
Sorry but I disagree strongly.
The modern day translations are the most accurate ever published. That is a fact.

We know nothing as fact. We believe it as fact...or not.


Those I mentioned ARE the best.
There are sects who disagree but I agree with the very best scholars.
As example, there is NO evidence that Jesus was stuck up on a stake but there s much evidence, biblical and historical, that he was crucified on a cross.
The terms for hell are all different was of saying hell. When Jesus referred to gehena, which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where GARBAGE was burned, He was using that as a symbol if what hell was like, burning garbage sinners.
We are very much more fortunate than people in many years past for the modern bibles we have today ARE the very best EVER printed.

True, there are some sects that publish their own bibles but they have been PROVEN to be inaccurate because they were PURPOSELY printed to say what the sect wanted to believe, not what authentic Holy Scripture does say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

What makes you think that these "best scholars" didn't PURPOSELY have their own agenda.?

You believe this because you believe what you read in the bible is the be all and end all of God. Not everyone who thinks there is a "god" or higher power believes that the bible is a flawless account of gods word.


I don't believe a loving god would ever condemn his child to an eternity of hell.
I don't believe in a god that would set up a "test" for us. Pass it, and you are accepted, fail it and you go to hell. This is absurd.
I don't believe in a god that would condemn you to hell for being gay. You are who you are if anything I feel that we should show kindness, mercy and acceptance of gays because it is not an easy life. Count yourself lucky if you were not born like this and have to deal with the disapproval of so many christians , rednecks and "tuff guy" sorts.
I don't believe in a god that would purposely flood the earth and kill every living soul with the exception of one family.

Just because you read something in the bible doesn't make it fact.

I believe in a God that loves me so much that He sent His only begotten Son to die for me on the Cross in order to keep me from going to hell.

I believe in a God who does not send anyone to hell, who does the utmost to prevent His children from going to hell, who respect His children's will so much that He lets them go if they don't want any part of Him.

Sincerely,

What makes you think that these "best scholars" didn't PURPOSELY have their own agenda.?

I guess everyone has to answer that question for themselves. For me, it is the fact that I can trace the results of the best scholarship throughout the centuries and they come back with the same results. All of them independently interpreting the source documents.

In the end, I have to have faith in the people who interpret the documents. I trust they have learned and taken to heart the same lessons the Master taught me.

cozyk,
I believe that the best bible translator scholars are many and together it would be extremely unlikely that they would "have their own agenda"
The reason why we have far better translations of the bible is partly because more original documents have been discovered and partly because of earlier translation errors.
Dedicated professionals want to fix the errors and have NO axe to grind.
On the other hand that most error filled versions of the bible since the King James Version was published are those bible which indeed have been translated by people who do have an agenda and want the bible to say that they want it to say.
If you don't believe me, fine. That is your choice.
You might want to send your skepticism or questions The American Bible Society.
Click on the ULR below.
American Bible Society (http://www.americanbible.org/)
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I believe in a God that loves me so much that He sent His only begotten Son to die for me on the Cross in order to keep me from going to hell.

I believe in a God who does not send anyone to hell, who does the utmost to prevent His children from going to hell, who respect His children's will so much that He lets them go if they don't want any part of Him.

Sincerely,
Why did someone have to die for you not to go to hell?
I don't believe in a god that would torture, humiliate, forsake, and sentence to a slow painful death of one person, Jesus, as a way to save other people from going to hell. He is ALL POWERFUL. He doesn't even have to have this "over the top" horrible place called hell.. That's a pretty drastic punishment. Why the two extremes? Pearly gates of heaven or fiery pitts of hell? According to Christians, everyone who does not believe this tale is subject to burn in hell. He's GOD! Is this the best plan he could come up with?

People that live a "Christ Like Life" but are of other faiths are going to hell?? God is GOOD, God is LOVE, God is MERCYFULL. That is the god I believe in and he would not condemn good people to hell just because they were not raised with this particular religion. And he certainly would not put up This hoop to jump through in order to be with Him.

I guess everyone has to answer that question for themselves. For me, it is the fact that I can trace the results of the best scholarship throughout the centuries and they come back with the same results. All of them independently interpreting the source documents.

In the end, I have to have faith in the people who interpret the documents. I trust they have learned and taken to heart the same lessons the Master taught me.

That's just it. You are having faith in PEOPLE and their INTERPRETATION. Those two words are subject to flaws and my god is a personal god that resides in my heart and soul and is not contingent on what mere people have translated or interpreted. My god's eye is on me 24/7 and I know if my thoughts or actions are pleasing to him. I don't need a bible to tell me what is right or wrong.

cozyk,
You believe as you WANT to just like almost every other person.
Your belief is ,as you put it, human made and therefore can be flawed.
Personally I think that your personal belief in God is flawed.
Why?
Because God is the perfectly wise, understanding, merciful, and just being.
If He is not, He is not the one true God.
So HIS way of salvation and punishment is perfect from His point of view and certainly not from our flawed point of view.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

cozyk,
You believe as you WANT to just like almost every other person.
Your belief is ,as you put it, human made and therefore can be flawed.
Personally I think that your personal belief in God is flawed.
Why?
Because God is the perfectly wise, understanding, merciful, and just being.
If He is not, He is not the one true God.
So HIS way of salvation and punishment is perfect from His point of view and certainly not from our flawed point of view.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You are right, I do believe as I want because what I believe resonates as truth in the heart and with my god. And, everyone else has the right to believe what is in their heart. But when your belief is spelled out to you by other people, is it really YOUR belief. Or are you just following orders. Maybe there isn't just "one true god". Maybe everyone that is open to it has their own individual, personal god. We don't REALLY know.

Athos,
You have just stated one of the great mysteries about God.
Clearly God's wisdom and understanding is very far beyong that of we mortals.
Another on is "With God all things are possible".
Think about that for awhile!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

cozyk,
Ah but in my case I do know.
God has proven himself to me.
He save my life in Korea and has answered all of my prayers.
That is all the proof I need.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

cozyk,
Ah but in my case I do know.
God has proven himself to me.
He save my life in Korea and has answered all of my prayers.
That is all the proof I need.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

It sounds like you and your god have a wonderful relationship. That is a beautiful thing. I'm happy for you.

Athos,
You have just stated one of the great mysteries about God.
Clearly God's wisdom and understanding is very far beyong that of we mortals.
Another on is "With God all things are possible".
Think about that for awhile!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Arcura, when one says "it's all a mystery and far beyond us mortals", this opens up a Pandora's Box of saying just about anything and attributing it to God. Didn't God give us an intellect and brain to wrestle with these things in "the tangle of our mind"?

There is no question that with God all things are possible. But are we to believe that God gave us reasoning power and then to discard that ability and not question?

Yes, I have thought about "that" for more than a while. Many years. I continue to do so.

Peace and kindness to you, too.

cozyk,
I see what you are saying and I have been on the same road that you have with that.
We are created in the image of God, a likeness, if you will.
But we were NOT created IDENTICAL to God in ability.
I believe there is no sin in questioning God; that is seeking answers about Him and what He has done.
That provides us with the opportunity to spiritually grow.
After all we are very young Children.
Even if we lived and grew for hundreds of years as Methuselah did we could not attain the wisdom and knowledge that God has.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

hell is a real place, And while God is love, he sent his Son as a method of being saved from Hell.
If hell was not real, there would be reason for Christ to have come.



Hell is a real place? God is love? God creates hell so his son is a method of avoiding hell?

If hell is not real, there would be no reason for Christ?

Do you see the incredible inconstencies in your comments?

I have no objection to your believing what you believe, but, please, don't offer it as some sort of rational understanding.

And please don't delete what I write.

hell is a real place?? God is love?? God creates hell so his son is a method of avoiding hell??yes, hadies is real. If you don't believe that all you need to do is wait until judgment day. Reading the books of daniel and revelations should give you a clear understanding of what god thinks of sin and those that do not repent will be judged and sent to the lake of fire for all eternity.

if hell is not real, there would be no reason for christ?? that's right hell is for those that choose not to believe in christ

do you see the incredible inconstencies in your comments?not a bit. It is not inconsistent at all. The bible if you believe it is full of very simple advise on how to avoid being sent to hell on judgment day

i have no objection to your believing what you believe, but, please, don't offer it as some sort of rational understanding.what your seeing as unrational is actually the premice for all christianity. God wants us to worship him and to live according to his teachings not doing so is what gets people into trouble. Think of the bible as an instruction manual for us human beings and reading and understanding what it teaches allows us to function normally and in accordance with god's desires for our lives.

and please don't delete what i write.
12

God is just, God is fair, God is a jealous God, God hates sin. God condemns sin and his obligated to punish us for our sin according to his word.

Jesus is Love giving his life for us.

It is easy to believe that there is no hell, that is what today's world wants us to believe since then there is no punishment for our sin, but the bible is very clear that the wages of sin is death,

Athos .
I see no inconstencies in what Fr. Chuck said.
Perhaps you do because you want to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

God is just, God is fair, God is a jealous God, God hates sin. God condemns sin and his obligated to punish us for our sin according to his word.

Jesus is Love giving his life for us.

It is easy to beleive that there is no hell, that is what todays world wants us to beleive since then there is no punishment for our sin, but the bible is very clear that the wages of sin is death,

What is God jealous of? Isn't that a flaw?

What is God jealous of? Isn't that a flaw?

No. In my opinion, it means God is protective of our love.

So you believe in hell but not god?

That's odd, but what are your reasons for not having faith in the first place?

And its normal to question god, heaven, hell. Everyone does.

Sometimes people are scared. And that's okay to be scared.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

cozyk,
God has love if us is why he warns us about false gods.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

kristenicole24,
You asked interesting questions.
I'd like to see the answers.
Fred

AManWithNoName
First of all,hell is the absence of God,the absence of His grace , His Glory,His mercy,His blessing,His Love...
An example... God controls the laws of nature, lets' say the temperature,OK?He sees that it doesn't go up too much and we all end up roasted,OK?What happens when He decides to withdraw a little bit of His mercy or care and allows temperature to increase just a little bit?
We all suffer from the heat,don't we?
Now ,imagine ALL of His grace and care and presence , forsaking us! That is hell!
Remember that Jesus cried out '' Lord, Lord , why have you forsaken me?'' and moments later He died!
Hell , is nothing more than God forsaking us!

Now, you say that you know you will die young.Unless you are talking about some very serious health situation here , I tell you that you are under the influence of an evil spirit, which convincies people that they are going to die.Then the person believes it and then this spirit has authourity over the person , so the road to death is wide open.If you are in that situation , open your mouth and say that you do not believe this lie, that your life is in God's hands and do so every time this idea comes to tempt you.Resist and it will go away!
And one more thing... If hell is depresing for you, how joyfull can God's Kingdom be FOR YOU ?

Adam,
That was very good. So good that this part needs repeating.
"Now, you say that you know you will die young.Unless you are talking about some very serious health situation here , I tell you that you are under the influence of an evil spirit, which convincies people that they are going to die.Then the person believes it and then this spirit has authourity over the person , so the road to death is wide open.If you are in that situation , open your mouth and say that you do not believe this lie, that your life is in God's hands and do so every time this idea comes to tempt you.Resist and it will go away!
And one more thing...If hell is depresing for you, how joyfull can God's Kingdom be FOR YOU ?"
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Without faith there's nothing. Always believe in god! Forreal everything I've prayed 4 has come true.. just believe in god if you don't have faith u have nothing REMEMBER THAT

As I prayed for you this day the Lord said "THE NEW MAN" "

"This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles [carnal people] walk, in the futility of there mind, having their
Understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the
Ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of there heart; who, being
Past feeling, have givenselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with
With greediness. But you have not learned Christ, if in indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus that you put off. concening
Your former conduct, the old man which grows, corrput according to the deceitful lusts,
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which
Was crested according to God, in true righeousness and holiness." Eph. 4:17-24

Renew your mind with the washing of the Word of God, that is putting off the old
Man and put on the new man by doing what the Word of God itells you to do!
Don't let yourself sink more into the hands of sata , call on the Lord who came
That you might have lLIFE and have it more ABUNDANTLY!!
Put your heart and mind on GODS WORD and BELIEVE IT! And peace will be with you!

Maggy 3

I would also like to add "That Faith Comes By Hearing, and Hearing By the Word
of God". Rom. 10: 17


Maggie 3

Nothing can be accomplished without some sort of faith, NOTHING!
Think about it.
Without faith you can not even move.
Fred

Hey, 'NoName. Sorry to hear you are going through such a crisis of faith. Dark nights of the soul like that can be no picnic. Try not to stress about it too much, especially the hell stuff. Everyone I know who is a person of deep faith, mature faith, has questioned, doubted, and stepped away from believing at least once in their lives. How else can you know your faith is real, until you know what it's like to live without it? After Mother Teresa's death, people read some of her private journals, and she expressed a lot of the same sentiments you express here, again and again through her life.

Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes we may feel the Spirit is withholding the gift of faith from us, and we cannot understand why She would do that. But perhaps you are not really losing your faith, merely losing the child-like unquestioningness that is only the superficial veneer of faith. It's good to be childlike in certain ways, but belief in God just because we are habitually holding on to what we were taught in childhood is not a faith that challenges us to discover God in our deepest selves. And if the Gospel stories tell us anything, it is that Jesus likes to push people to their limit (He asks the rich man to forsake wealth, the doubter to believe, etc.). To quote St. Thomas Aquinas, "Truth does not fear the question." In going into this period of doubt and darkness, you are going on a journey. If you face the journey with an open heart, an inquisitive and sincere mind, and love for yourself and your neighbor, what you gain will be far more than what you now feel you have lost.

Hand in hand with the more mature faith is a system of morals that has a deeper basis than merely the punishment and reward system of hell and heaven.

Have you ever heard the story of "The Fourth Wise Man"? (I think it's a folk tale--does anyone know its authorship?) Of course, the Bible doesn't say there were three magi, only that they brought three gifts to the Christ Child--so we assume there were three and each brought one gift. But this story tells of an additional one, who was going along with the others at first, but got sidetracked trying to help out a person in need. He spends the rest of his life doing that, trying to track down Jesus (right up to the Crucifixion), but always one step behind because he keeps stopping to serve others who need his help.

Finally, as this fourth astrologer is dying, Jesus appears to him and the man says, "Lord, I sought you all my life but I failed. I could never find you." Jesus' response is taken from Matt. 25: "In what you did for all of these least little ones, you did for Me. Now enter the home of my Father."

It is not a question of how long you will live, but of what you make of your life. Would you serve others out of love, even if you could not believe in heaven or hell? Perhaps Jesus deprived you of the sense of faith for a time precisely to teach you this lesson of love.

Consider this case: I have a friend, who is a firm atheist. When the hurricane Katrina disaster happened, she gave me some money (and she is a struggling college student) to give to the Catholic charities relief program. She told me, "I know if I give it to the Catholic Church, it will be used properly to do real good." (Nice to know that people out there in the world see that side of the Church too, sometimes!) Anyway, what do you think Jesus will say about this woman's act of giving money to people she has never met? Will He not say, as He said about the widow who gave at the temple, "She has given more than all the rest."?

Even a paramecium on a slide will move toward nutrients and away from acid. When do we become more than this? When do we become free? For some of us at least, it is when we start making choices to do what we believe is right, even if we do not have some reward or punishment in mind, or believe there is some Divinity who sees the good we do in secret.

Blessings to you, and Peace be with you.

Alder,
Excellent post.
Well said, well done!
Pax Christi,
Fred

AManWithNoName -

I think your words "...kind of don't want to believe" are very revealing. Whatever it is that you are internally questioning is where you'll find your faith or your unbelief. Hopefully, your unbelief is just a trivial, shaking of a transient fist at God kind of unbelief. Perhaps you have endured a real trial of faith and you are genuinely trying to sort out some issues. Perhaps you are not interested in resolving these issues but you are looking for some psychological comfort from others to further propel you in unbelief... I sincerely hope not.

Nobody knows where you stand but you know. So where do you stand? What happened that has caused you to doubt or not want to believe in God (which I think is more apt). Nobody sincerely doesn't believe in God... people ultimately choose not to believe because THEY DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE!

Just trying to be real but encouraging at the same time.

jakester,
I think you are on the right tract with that post.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

And love for yourself and your neighbor, what you gain will be far more than what you now feel you have lost.

Hand in hand with the more mature faith is a system of morals that has a deeper basis than merely the punishment and reward system of hell and heaven.


Consider this case: I have a friend, who is a firm atheist. When the hurricane Katrina disaster happened, she gave me some money (and she is a struggling college student) to give to the Catholic charities relief program. She told me, "I know if I give it to the Catholic Church, it will be used properly to do real good." (Nice to know that people out there in the world see that side of the Church too, sometimes!) Anyway, what do you think Jesus will say about this woman's act of giving money to people she has never met? Will He not say, as He said about the widow who gave at the temple, "She has given more than all the rest."?

Even a paramecium on a slide will move toward nutrients and away from acid. When do we become more than this? When do we become free? For some of us at least, it is when we start making choices to do what we believe is right, even if we do not have some reward or punishment in mind, or believe there is some Divinity who sees the good we do in secret.

Blessings to you, and Peace be with you.[/QUOTE]

I agree with what you said here. BUT, under the christian belief of God, this atheist friend of yours will burn in hell. Remember, your good works will not get you to heaven. Only one way to avoid hell. Through Jesus. How do you make any sense out of this? Many do "what is right" without regard of punishment or reward. We do it because we believe it is the way of a loving god or simply for the greater good of our world.

cozyk,
There is a belief that a very good person CAN go to heaven IF God so decides.
Not every Christian has that belief but I do.
I believe that God is the ultimate, final judge of who does go to Heaven, or Purgatory, or Hell.
So says the bible I believe in.
You have a nice belief concerning God and I respect that.
I also believe that He is the ultimate nice guy and that He is everywhere which includes being in us.
But I also believe that He is perfect in Justice.
So I also believe that Our Heavenly Father is similarly like a good parent who does nothing or rewards or punishes his Child as the case indicates.
That is what I believe.
Do you respect that?
Peace and kindness,
Fred