So, I know that world copper prices have dropped significantly over the past few months. Have you pros seen a decrease in the cost of copper tubing, etc?

Back in June/July, when copper was rather high, I solicited some bids for repiping my home in copper, but due to the cost decided to hold off for a bit. Should I expect the prices to be lower?

Thanks!

The labor will remain the same but you should get a break on the material. Get three more estimates. Good luck, Tom

Thanks! All the plumbers we had in blamed the high price on the cost of copper... I am curious as to what their response will be now.

Tom, can you suggest what I should look for in a good bid for this type of work?

Tom, can you suggest what I should look for in a good bid for this type of work? Not without being on site to see what has to be done. Sorry, Tom

Tom-

Not so much price, but more, what should I expect out of them? What type of copper K,L or M do you suggest? Are there ways they can limit the amount of damage done to the walls and ceiling? For example, I have seen rigid copper piping but also some that comes rolled up?

I am actually less concerned with the pipes and more concerned about damage to the walls and ceiling which are all wood lath and plaster. I know there will be some damage, but I'd like to find someone who uses a procedure that is most gentle.

Any suggestions would be great!

Tom,
Wouldn't you recommend Pex pipe for less price and limited damage, Thanks.

John

Hi Stubits...

Just to jump in here a bit... ;) Copper prices have gone down here from $25.00 per 10 FT of 1/2" pipe type L to $15.00... just FYI.

Type L copper pipe is for water pipes.

Type M copper pipe is for heat pipes.

Type K copper pipe is exclusively for underground plumbing in my area.

For lathe work, the best method I have found to open an area of the wall is to first BREAK OUT A SQUARE OF THE PLASTER/GYPSUM BOARD about 2 inches larger than the square hole size I want to make in the wall. Then I use a rotozip tool with a wood bit and I cut the lathe perimeter about 2 inches in from the plaster. I do my work and then patch the hole with 3/8" blueboard (2" of lathe acts as wood to connect too) so that the plasterer can tape/mud the joints to patch the wall. Never had a cracked plaster wall or a cut wire using this method. You could also use a jigsaw or a battery powered mini skill saw, etc. to cut the lathe...

The rolls of copper you mentioned are referred to as SOFT COPPER TUBING... or refrigeration tubing... great stuff for fishing pipes between floors without soldering in bad spots so this will be very helpful in remodeling work!

In terms of PEX pipe... John is right in that it has its application much like the soft copper tubing... especially when fishing between floors... AND MUCH CHEAPER in terms of labor and material... so not a bad isea to investigate options here.

Just wanted to add my two cents!

See you!

MARK

Mark-

Thanks a ton! I appreciate the copper tubing primer. You might remember me as you, and others, provided me with a tremendous tutorial on PEX piping.

First, thanks for the amazing suggestion of working with plaster walls. I have a couple of electrical projects coming up that I know will benefit from your suggestions. It makes perfecr sense, but I would never have thought of it on my own.

I am really conflicted on how best to proceed. We definitely need to repipe, not urgently(we have no leaks), but we have severely restricted flow. From a DIY perspective, I know I am ill equipped to do a complete repipe in copper. I really think I could pull it off with PEX, however.

Maybe you can help me in making a decision here. A couple of parameters, I don't mind paying the costs involved with having a pro repipe the house, but I never mind saving money and learning a new skill. I have a great, and very affordable drywall guy, so patching the mess doesn't worry me a ton. We are planning an addition to the house that will involve 1.5 new bathrooms and a new laundry room (all in the new addition). We are also planning a total gut remodel of one of our current bathrooms (including adding an extra sink). Unfortunately, I think we'll probably end up doing the repipe before we are ready for the addition or the bathroom remodel. I haven't yet been able to confirm if PEX is allowed in my area (but will do so shortly), however homeowners here cannot get permits for plumbing work, so if I do the work it will be unpermitted (all of the plumbers we have talked to said that they would not recommend pulling a permit for the job as it opens a huge can of worms in older homes).

OK, so with those parameters, and assuming PEX is permissible here, what would you suggest? PEX or copper?

Also, how do you run tubing, pex or copper through floor or ceiling joists? Do you drill a hole in the middle or notch it out on the bottom?

Thanks!

Hi Stubits...

I remember you for sure... ;) You can decide if that is good or bad... :p

I guess I think of remodeling like this as a mix between old and new piping.

That is, I think you need to be prepared to use both copper and pex throughout the project.

On long runs and running from floor to floor, PEX is great, but you need to allow for greater RADIUS of piping in drilling your holes so you can turn the pex without adding fittings. That may not make sense until you work with the stuff...

Check out these links for more info. On PEX... :)

AOL Search (http://search.aol.com/aol/imageDetails?invocationType=imageDetails&query=viega+pex+plumbing+tools&img=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pexinfo.com%2Fimages%2Ftoolde crimper-thumb.jpg&site=&host=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pexinfo.com%2F&width=74&height=61&thumbUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fimages-partners-tbn.google.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AYc_iX4knzz3EiM %3Awww.pexinfo.com%2Fimages%2Ftooldecrimper-thumb.jpg&b=image%3Fquery%3Dviega%2Bpex%2Bplumbing%2Btools%2 6page%3D3%26displayCount%3D20%26invocationType%3Dt opsearchbox.image%26clickstreamid%3D13027647896035 16134)

AOL Search (http://search.aol.com/aol/imageDetails?invocationType=imageDetails&query=water+heaters+pipes+in+series&img=http%3A%2F%2Fhomebuilding.thefuntimesguide.com %2Fimages%2Fblogs%2F50_gallon_A_O_Smith_ProMax_ele ctric_water_heaters.JPG&site=&host=http%3A%2F%2Fhomebuilding.thefuntimesguide.co m%2F2007%2F08%2Fcustomshowersystem_watervolume.php&width=98&height=146&thumbUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fimages-partners-tbn.google.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3A8weUc4fElFB14M %3Ahomebuilding.thefuntimesguide.com%2Fimages%2Fbl ogs%2F50_gallon_A_O_Smith_ProMax_electric_water_he aters.JPG&b=image%3Fquery%3Dwater%2Bheaters%2Bpipes%2Bin%2Bs eries%26page%3D2%26invocationType%3Daolcomimage%26 clickstreamid%3D-3859393305881672558%26displayCount%3D20)

The second link is THE MANUAL on PEX systems...

Remember, you will still need to run copper piping from water heater, boiler, etc... and then convert to PEX at least 18" from all units.

Let me know...

MARK

Mark-

Since you're still willing to answer my questions, I am going to assume you aren't completely fed up with me. In all seriousness though, thank you so much for your continued patience and help. This is a major undertaking, at least for someone like me and so having all the details down will make it a little less intimidating... plus, when my wife expresses doubt I can at least sound knowledgeable.

If DC will allow PEX, I am inclined to go that direction with this. I cannot really see paying someone to do it in all copper. Mostly, I doubt anyone will be quite as careful with my walls and ceilings as I will be, so I can reduce dust, wreckage, etc.

My joists are 2x10. Should that give me sufficient room to bend the pex in this application? It seems like it should be fine.

One random question. I know I'll need to turn the water off at the meter... is there a special tool for that or just a wrench?

Thanks!

There are usually two "normal" valves at the meter which is usually inside the house.

If you have to turn the water outside at the "curb stop", there may be regulations to follow and they are "town" specific. And apply to what the homeowner can do, the plumber can do and the city has to do. They can also regulate who is allowed to turn it on and others in the group can turn it off.

The "curb stop" is unlocked with a "5-sided socket" and valve tools are easy to come by. Our county allows the homeowner to provide a deposit to use both tools.

A nearby city allows only the city to turn it on and off. They used to allow licensed plumbers to do so.

My supplier, Ferguson Enterprises, one of the largest plumbing supply houses that caters to professionals located all across the country, still keeps copper prices high. When I inquired about lower prices, they told me that it takes several months before they deplete advance purchase orders that they committed to at higher prices. However, don't expect the prices to drop significantly. In today's economy, suppliers and distributors enjoy higher profits. So do all others involved. We still pay delivery fuel surcharges even though gas prices dropped significantly in the last six months.

Stubits...

You can do all the work.. or just open the holes for the plumber... up to you, of course!

2"x10" joist should allow plenty of room to work with PEX... if allowed in your area. One trick I use when drilling joists that I will be changing directions in is to drill the holes on an angle to allow the pex to flow with the turn...

And best copper prices will be found at home depot and Lowe's as they have that national buying power and prices changes (positive or negative) are adopted quickly!

The shutoff at the meter should turn off by hand... if not, then contact the city/town water department and have them (or as KISS indicated, maybe YOU can do this in yoiur area) shut water off at the street and get a new shutoff installed. A BALL VALVE will be best.

Good luck...

MARK

I figured the 2x10's would be sufficient. Great tip on angling the drill holes, again, makes perfect sense.

As for the water shutoff...

We have a newer shut-off valve in the house, but it on the older, galvanized steel part of the pipe. We have copper coming in from the meter, but it converts to galvanized as soon as it gets in the house. The water meter is located, underground, at our curb. The box doesn't appear to be locked, so I can open it and check it out.

Curb Stop Key

http://www.raptortool.com/Specs/RAP41029.pdf

To access the actual stops they usually use something like this:

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&item_ID=15276&group_ID=368&store=australia&dir=catalog\

Here is what I have made of 3/4 galvanize T Fitting. Thanks.

John

Looks perfect. I will see what I can find for purchase locally!

Thanks!