Has everyone veiwed the insane idea brought to attention Dec 2 for holiday gift certificate?
The New York Times reported that 35 parent planning station across the Unitied States have offered the gift of death as a Christmas gift.

As quoted in the news:

Here's an original holiday gift idea to help the person who may have everything, including a little something they don't really want. A new way to mark the festive yearend celebration of life -- a gift certificate for an abortion.

I applaude Gianna Jessen who is an abortion survivor. And I ask that you to give your heart to her message. Don't miss part 2 also... I promise it is worth hearing.

Part 1
GodTube.com - davisc - Gianna Jessen - Abortion Survivor (Part 1 of 2) (http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=5062223d42b07ab68d62)


Part 2
GodTube.com - davisc - Gianna Jessen - Abortion Survivor (Part 2 of 2) (http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=5df82b8fe869c68cf7eb)

Come on now, what do you mean gift certificate of death? Don't you know to Planned Parenthood that's just "basic medical needs?"


"Women in particular are likely to forgo basic medical needs when faced with putting gas in their car or food on the table," said Planned Parenthood of Indiana's president and CEO, Betty Cockrum.

What a special way to celebrate Christmas - the birth of child - give an abortion to a loved one. I wonder if you can designate which services the certificate is good for. Hey cousin George, here’s $50 for your gonorrhea. Or maybe we can just designate the certificate for the next black that comes for an abortion (http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/02/planned_parenth.html)?

I feel that the present society that America is currently in can be extremely revolting to even dream up such a tastless Christmas gift. What kind of a gift is this? Hey, everybody, let's kill a few more babies and you have our gift certificate to make it all nicey nicey and all. This is worse than bad taste. It defies logic.

Quoted WHERE in the news?

Give me the link to the news article, please.

I have a feeling that there is more to this than just a gift certificate for an abortion! There are a LOT of services that Planned Parenthood offers that have NOTHING to do with abortions--and EVERYTHING to do with family planning.

Here you go (http://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=6384543&page=1) Synnen:


This holiday season, Indiana's Planned Parenthood is offering an unusual stocking stuffer: gift certificates redeemable for health services at clinics throughout the state.

In these tough economic times, the organization says it made the move toward gift certificates because it is worried that more and more people will forgo basic health care.

"Women in particular are likely to forgo basic medical needs when faced with putting gas in their car or food on the table," said Planned Parenthood of Indiana's president and CEO, Betty Cockrum.

Planned Parenthood provides contraception, pap smears and other routine health services for women, as well as abortions. The gift certificates, ranging in values from $25 to $100, can be redeemed for all clinic services.

The Indiana branch is selling the gift certificates on its Web site, touting it as a way to give the gift of health this holiday season.

But the vouchers are sparking controversy. Some anti-abortion supporters see it as less about the gift of affordable health care and more about making a mockery of the holidays.

"This campaign to offer lethal gift certificates that Planned Parenthood is engaging in right now is offensive," said Sister Diane Carollo, director of the Office for Pro-Life Ministry for the Catholic Archdiocese of Indianapolis. "And it's offensive because Christmas is about the celebration of human life."

Planned Parenthood is quick to argue some 95 percent of women who come to their clinics come for basic health services -- not abortion.

"It's about basic health care. It's about annual exams, it's about pap smears, it's about birth control," said Cockrum. "I would be amazed if a dime of it goes toward an abortion.

It's an issue that is spreading beyond Indiana. On ABC News.com today, opinions were mixed. One person wrote: "Wal-Mart gift cards can be used to buy alcohol and ammunition... but nobody is outraged."

This holiday season Indiana's Planned Parenthood is offering gift certificates that can be used at 35 clinics across the state for services ranging from contraceptives to abortion.

Another wrote: "Disgusting!! I am pro choice, but gift certificates for abortion, sick, sick, sick!"

Planned Parenthood chapters in Illinois, New York, Alaska and Michigan are considering similar gift certificate programs for the holidays.

But if the organization expands this program, the more it is likely to inflame the never-ending fight over abortion during what is intended to be a peaceful holiday season.

Yup... giving a woman the gift of a pap smear so that she doesn't die of cervical cancer is just horrendous!

Or giving a woman the gift of affordable birth control so that she doesn't face the choices of an unplanned pregnacy--just awful!

Grow up, people. The gift of health is a HUGE gift. If people were giving someone a gift certificate to any OTHER health care, like a hospital or walk-in clinic--some of which do offer abortions--would you be as outraged? Or is it just because it's Planned Parenthood?

I personally used Planned Parenthood all through college and afterwards, when I was flat broke, because it was either Planned Parenthood or NO health care. With low-paying jobs that didn't offer insurance, I didn't have a lot of choice in health care providers.

I'll just suggest to others I know in the same financial straits (and there are MORE of them now, the way the economy is!) that they should just take chances with their health rather than support an agency that promotes womens' health.

If a Planned Parenthood gift certificate isn't your cup of tea, you can celebrate Christmas by watching the first televised assisted suicide (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,464125,00.html) if you have Britain's Sky TV.

you can celebrate Christmas by watching the first televised assisted suicide (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,464125,00.html) if you have Britain's Sky TV.Why are you interested in that??

Synnen, do you really not get it? Of course health care is a great gift, but the outrage is that the certificates are valid “for all clinic services.” It really isn’t that difficult to figure out that promoting gift certificates with the potential to be used for an abortion as a “Christmas” gift is beyond disgusting. There just isn’t much more insulting, outrageous, offensive, demeaning to “the reason for the season” than that.

There just isn’t much more insulting, outrageous, offensive, demeaning to “the reason for the season” than that.You mean worse that the outrageous commercialization of the “the reason for the season”?

Why are you interested in that????

Do you have any substance to offer at all, NK?

Do you have any substance to offer at all, NK?Just wondering why you're interested in watching someone's suicide and promote the fact to all here.

Just wondering why you're interested in watching someone's suicide and promote the fact to all here.

The sarcasm is obvious, NK, so you can drop the lame attempts at highlighting my "interest."

You know what---I typed up a nice long response to you, speechlesstx, but decided that even though you warrant it, I couldn't be THAT rude and THAT demeaning.

Let's just put it this way: A person's healthcare, in this country, is protected by privacy. There is absolutely NO ONE who needs to know how those gift cards are used.

My dad got a gun from all of us for Christmas last year. Guns are ONLY for killing. Should we have waited until Father's Day--is that your point? That giving a gift that someone wants and/or needs shouldn't happen at the holidays unless there is absolute NO WAY for it to be used for harm.

So... no more cleaning supplies, knives, guns, ice picks, alcohol, ice skates, step ladders, rope, candlesticks, lead pipes, wrenches, baseball bats---are you getting the idea here?--because they MIGHT be used to kill someone.

I love people who want to ban things on the basis of MIGHTS.

people have christmas parties, yes even good christians, then some drink and drive - it's a certificate of death!!!!

The reason for the season. What a funny saying, how about the guy who got trampled at walmart in NY. The reason he was killed is because of the season. So let me ask how many of you stopped shopping at Walmart? Their sale and the Season is the reason a man is dead. So save how disgusted you are about a GC for Planned Parenthood that may or may not be used for an abortion if you still shop at Walmart.

Or maybe we can just designate the certificate for the next black that comes for an abortion (http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/02/planned_parenth.html)?

Make the Eugenics~Tide gay. Their founder, Margaret Sanger, hated black people and wanted to eliminate them through sterilization and abortion.

In her own words :
The most serious charge that can be brought against modern “benevolence” is that it encourages the perpetuation of defectives, delinquents and dependents. These are the most dangerous elements in the world community, the most devastating curse on human progress and expression.
The Pivot of Civilization (http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/abortion_eugenics/sanger/sanger_05.html)

Is this about the time where we mention the Westboro Baptist Church since we seem to be fishing for kooks in this world?

If you wish . I brought up Sanger because she begat Planned Parenthood from her kooky philosophy of hate .

I love laughing at Pastor Phelps and his family, there are INSANE!!

I love laughing at Pastor Phelps and his family, there are INSANE!!!!!That's an understatement.

You know what---I typed up a nice long response to you, speechlesstx, but decided that even though you warrant it, I couldn't be THAT rude and THAT demeaning.

My apologies, I didn't mean to be deserving of "THAT rude and THAT demeaning," I merely pointed out what the outrage is about. I wasn't dissing you in asking "do you really not get it?" In fact I think you do get it but won't say so.


Let's just put it this way: A person's healthcare, in this country, is protected by privacy. There is absolutely NO ONE who needs to know how those gift cards are used.

I know all about that but it's irrelevant to the point.


My dad got a gun from all of us for Christmas last year. Guns are ONLY for killing. Should we have waited until Father's Day--is that your point? That giving a gift that someone wants and/or needs shouldn't happen at the holidays unless there is absolute NO WAY for it to be used for harm.

Oh really? I've fired a gun many, many, many times. I was taught how to fire a weapon when I was 7 or 8. By the third grade my dad would give me a .22 and a box of ammo and let me go out on my own at my grandmother's farm. I have never in 48 years killed anything with one of those shots I took, unless you count the TV we euthanized at a friend's private shooting range a few years ago.


So... no more cleaning supplies, knives, guns, ice picks, alcohol, ice skates, step ladders, rope, candlesticks, lead pipes, wrenches, baseball bats---are you getting the idea here?--because they MIGHT be used to kill someone.

I love people who want to ban things on the basis of MIGHTS.

Maybe you don't get it after all. If you can point out where I wanted to ban something in my responses I'll be glad to address that, but meanwhile let's talk about what I have said and what I'm about to say. I don't deny Planned Parenthood's right to offer these, but that doesn't diminish the offensiveness of promoting gift certificates that have the potential to be used for killing a child in honor of the season which is entirely about the birth of a child. There are a hell of a lot of things that may be legal and have good intentions but it doesn't make it the right thing to do. And IF Planned Parenthood were as concerned about health care for low income and other needy people as they claim to be, the thought of offering "gift certificates" would never enter the discussion, they would "just do it."

I guess YOU don't get the point.

The "reason" for the season is the rebirth of the sun. Christianity coopted the winter solstice hundreds of years ago, and took on pagan traditions (like gift-giving) to convert the pagans

The season is about giving. It's about tolerance. It's about love, and friendship and fellow-man.

It's NOT about judgments, or assumptions, or getting offended every single time someone does something that ISN'T Christian. There are SEVERAL other holidays this time of year, you know, and most of them have gift-giving involved.

I get that you don't want people getting abortions, or getting gift cards that could help them. I guess what YOU don't get is that it would be extremely surprising for someone to get an abortion with those gift cards, since any TRUE Christian wouldn't give someone who is expecting a gift card to Planned Parenthood, would they? They'd buy baby stuff instead. Or buy food, or whatever. Anyone who gets one of these cards to give is going to be giving it to someone they'd like to be HEALTHY. Anyone GETTING one of these cards is more likely to get birth control than an abortion, if you ask me.

Besides---I don't know, really, what you seem to know about abortion, but even a CHEAP abortion is usually over $500. I don't know anyone handing out $500.00 gift cards for ANYTHING this holiday season---and if they were, they'd be able to afford something nicer than Planned Parenthood, don't you think? Or do you think that 16 year old is going to ask everyone in her family for PP gift cards for Christmas, so that she can run out and get her abortion the day after? By contrast, $25 can get you several months of birth control pills from PP. Which do YOU think is more likely?

All this does is make me realize that some people assume that others will do the worst--and that most of the time those making the assumptions do so in the name of "good" and "God". Isn't this the time of year to expect the BEST of your fellow-man?

I get your point--I realize you're offended that some people make a choice about their own bodies that you don't agree with.

You don't get mine: If this is supposed to be the "season of Christianity", shouldn't Christian principles prevail? Shouldn't people expect the best of others, and foster goodwill and generosity? Shouldn't we forgive people, and try to live like Jesus would? How about spreading love instead of hate? How about spreading kindness instead of pettyness? How about thinking that people will do something GOOD with a gift, rather than assuming that they will do something bad? Why not practice tolerance of the beliefs of others instead of pushing your own at them?

Wonder how a gift certificate like this would be viewed?

"This entitles the bearer to one free office call with Dr. Jack Kevorkian"

Wonder how a gift certificate like this would be viewed?

"This entitles the bearer to one free office call with Dr. Jack Kevorkian"

I would view a Gift Certificate like that with a big THANK YOU. I think assisted suicide should be legal. Why do we make people suffer? If you are sick and want to die I think that should be a persons choice. I know if I was in a car accident and I was going to be a quadriplegic and was going to have to have someone clean me, machines breathe for me, and tubes feed me I would rather be dead.

We are always going to have heated debates over abortion - and rightfully so, there are many factors involved. However, I think that what is being overlooked here is the many, many other great services offered by Planned Parenthood. As one of the 140 million Americans that don't have health insurance, I would love a gift certificate to Planned Parenthood. Believe me, I am long over due for a healthcare visit!

Of course, how silly of us to miss that Planned Parenthood would be offering this "gift" in honor of the "rebirth of the sun" and not the birth of the Son. I'm sure that's exactly what they had in mind for all those millions of people out there shopping for just the right meaningful Saturnalia gift to be wrapped in all that Saturnalia paper and placed under the Saturnalia Tree.

But hey, I can be tolerant of people celebrating Saturnalia, or Kwanzaa or whatever, that's fine, but by far the majority of people in this country will be giving Christmas gifts for the Christmas holiday regardless of whether someone co-opted the celebration from pagans. You call it what you want and we'll call it what we want, but we couldn't really care less about any alleged pagan origins of Christmas - we know what we're celebrating.

These gift certificates in present form are a slap in the face to millions of Christians no matter what you plead. That doesn't change just because you say it should and why in God's name does everyone think we should not be offended because you say so anyway? And yes, I do get that the likelihood of using one for an abortion is probably slim, but just once couldn't they have used a little better judgment?

As for what I know about abortion, it robbed me of a grandchild, probably my only shot at ever having a grandchild. Planned Parenthood's "health care" also left my daughter fighting for her life with full-blown AIDS. I have plenty of standing in my contempt for Planned Parenthood so yeah, I certainly get it.

We are always going to have heated debates over abortion - and rightfully so, there are many factors involved. However, I think that what is being overlooked here is the many, many other great services offered by Planned Parenthood. As one of the 140 million Americans that don't have health insurance, I would love a gift certificate to Planned Parenthood. Believe me, I am long over due for a healthcare visit!!

I would have no problem giving someone a gift certificate for health care, but not to Planned Parenthood. I would take my family to see Tor Eckman before I took them to PP.

YouTube Seinfeld - The Heart Attack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHxRkXrBMKo)

The beauty of Seinfeld - it can be applied to all of life's situation :)

I am sorry to hear about your daughter's illness, Speachless. I can empathize with your feelings. Maybe the real issue here is this:

Why aren't other health care facilities offering gift certificates? It's actually a great idea.

Then those Christians shouldn't buy them.

It works like that in a capitalistic society: if you all decide not to buy it because you don't agree with it on moral grounds, well, then the product won't be available in the future.

You have a personal vendetta against Planned Parenthood. It has NOTHING to do with the millions of people that PP has helped over the years.

You may know what you're celebrating, but you're really angry when anyone points out that you're not celebrating it the way the early Christians did, but in the way the pagans around them did. The original Christmases were days of fasting and praying---if you don't like the way pagans celebrate it, then go back to fasting and praying, imo.

And by the way---ya'll stole the "Christmas" tree from the pagans (yup, I've got one up, with icicle ornaments and pagan symbols and a clump of mistletoe on the top). You stole the gift giving thing from Saturnalia, when it was a time to give gifts to others. I actually DO have something like "Saturnalia" paper--it's stars and moons and suns in silver and gold and black and blue.

Want to jump all over the Jews that MIGHT give this gift certificate to PP in installments over 8 crazy nights? I mean, it could be $5 the first night, up to $300 the last night, and the full amount MIGHT add up to the cost of an abortion! Holy smokes! And they're not CHRISTIAN! They might KILL A BABY for Christm--oops, I mean Hannukah.

GET REAL. People don't just randomly make the decision to abort.

Planned Parenthood helps millions of people every year who cannot afford birth control, health care, family planning guidance (which, by the way, includes some fertility treatments), counseling on adoption and parenting options and STD testing--all of which SAVE lives.

And really--point out to me a SINGLE health care facility in this country that has NOT had a case of malpractice. Show me one hospital that hasn't had a death due to negligence or overtired/overworked doctors and nurses. Human beings make mistakes. It happens. I'm sorry that it happened to your daughter--truly I am. I will definitely pray for her.

Part of your whole issue is that if your daughter had felt comfortable with talking to you to begin with, you may not have had the issues with Planned Parenthood that you have, because you would have taken her for the medical care that YOU could afford, not the care that SHE could afford.

So--blame yourself as much as you blame them, woman.

That was not fair. How can you be so mean spirited?

I understand her reasons, but to me they seem irrational to the point of blindness. The point is that PP DOES have affordable health care. PP DOES help millions of young women who would not otherwise have ANY health care. And they do so very much more than offer abortions---and I'm really sick of the fact that people can't see beyond that fact.

I agree with you 100% that PP is a good organization. However, I'm sure I would feel the same way Speechless feels if I had an experience similar to hers. She is entitled to her feelings and viewpoint without a nasty attack about her relationship with her ill daughter. Do you actually know anything about their relationship?

You are correct.

I have deleted those horrible words and my follow up post.

My apologies to Speechlesstx. I was completely out of line, and should not have said what I did.

I wonder how many abortions PP has prevented due to its wide range of services? That seems to be conveniently ignored. You know I'm sorry for yours and your daughters situation Steve but getting angry over something as simple as this is seems misguided... But then again I suppose nothing is simple when it comes to religion and this issue in particular.

Good job Synnen. We can disagree and still respect each other.

You are correct.

I have deleted those horrible words and my follow up post.

My apologies to Speechlesstx. I was completely out of line, and should not have said what I did.

It's good that you apologized before I read it, but for the record my daughter was an adult living near San Diego, CA with an abusive boyfriend about 1500 miles away. I bet you know what's that's like and why we were completely in the dark.

I wonder how many abortions PP has prevented due to its wide range of services? That seems to be conveniently ignored. You know i'm sorry for yours and your daughters situation Steve but getting angry over something as simple as this is seems misguided... But then again i suppose nothing is simple when it comes to religion and this issue in particular.

Come on Skell, not you, too. Why do so many people think everyone has a right to be offended except Christians? The thought of a Christmas-time gift certificate potentially being used for an abortion is close to being the ultimate offense to our faith, but you think it's misguided. We're supposed to be "sensitive" to everyone else, even the slightest perception of an offense is played as an outrage but a direct insult to us is "misguided." But for the record, I was never angry about it until folks started telling me not to be.

I'll grant this also, yes Planned Parenthood does some good, they do furnish health care that some might otherwise go without, they do help prevent abortions to a degree, and for Synnen's sake, no there are no perfect health care providers. My daughter isn't the only one close to me whose life was messed up with PP's help, and I know more than enough about PP's activities factually otherwise to more than justify my contempt for that organization. You guys thought I was joking about Kramer's holistic healer... I'm not. Planned Parenthood in my opinion is a vile, dishonest, incompetent blight on society.

Why didn't Planned Parenthood give gift certificates for vasectomies instead and nip the problem in the bud (pun intended). Now that would make much more sense - prevention not destruction.

I believe that Planned Parenthood DOES offer vasectomies.

You could certainly use the gift card towards one, I'm sure.

Synn you missed my point. Sorry.

Years back I used to go to PP for ob/gyn. I used their services for 3 years before I switch to another clinic. I must say that I loved the services they provided but I dreaded going there because every time I went there protesters would be out front bothering everyone that went inside thinking they were going in to get an abortion. One day I got into an agreement with one because she was all in my face about not getting an abortion.

A lot of abortions clinic offer services other than abortions but some people tend to only focus on that part. I don't think by purchases these gift certificates your giving someone the gift of death and besides when you give someone something it is up to the person to use it for anything they want.

I for one is not to keen on abortions however it is the woman right to choose what they want to do. Everyone is entitle to that.

As insane as I felt this reported news was, it was reported that one family planning started this idea and her robust opinion is what I find insane.

Note :
Betty Cockrum, president and CEO of Planned Parenthood of Indiana, characterizes the response to the gift certificates as "pretty robust, and generally very favorable."


Yet in every posted message here in this thread, I have heard no one mention any response to the linked web site of Gianna Jessen. Unless I missed something?

It is Gianna's actions and opinion that I found worth mentioning as applauding . She puts the heart of love into what we should appreciate of each individual and their right to life..

Facts and the reporting of all facts can be the difference in someones life. Even the life of an unborn baby.

Does anyone agree with Gianna Jessen?

Gianna Jessen was mentioned and debated during the campaign I think when the issue of the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act came up .

Here is her testimony to Congress during the Born Alive Infant Protection Act of 2000 debates :
Testimony of Gianna Jessen (http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/jessen.html)

Do I agree with Gianna? Without a doubt and I am certainly moved by her testimony. I think hers is one of the most important stories we can ever hear. When we've cheapened life to the point where government actually has to debate a "Born alive act," her story and her desire to "infuse humanity" into the debate are much needed. As Michelle Obama would say "our souls are broken in this nation." Except I think Gianna understands that better than Michelle's husband.

A 7 months abortion would not happen in this day and age unless there was a medical danger to the mother involved. NO state allows third trimester abortions for ANY other reason.

I can't even respond to this thread anymore. Having met so many people that chose abortions for reasons that were VERY valid to them (abuse, incest, medical conditions), I can not in good conscience support anyone who thinks that the life of the fetus is more important than the life of the mother.

Having ALSO been through the pain that adoption holds (yeah---they don't like to advertise the fact that birthmothers go through depression, have commitment issues later in life, commit suicide, have an increased risk of infertility, or any of the other problems associated with relinquishment. They'd rather focus on how "happy" you've made an infertile couple, and how "good" you are to not have chosen abortion. Then they tell you to get on with your life and stop mourning a child that is perfectly happy where it is!), I can't in good conscience support advising women to choose that instead. Adoption HURTS. It still hurts, every day, 17 years later. It is EXACTLY the same as losing a child to death--your child "dies" so that another couple's child can be "born". I wouldn't wish adoption on my worst enemy, especially with the laws and social norms that focus on the adoptive family and not on the birthfamily and their issues.

Honestly--the best way to combat abortions is to encourage safer sex and birth control. And frankly--that's the majority of what Planned Parenthood does.

However--too many people scream about the "rights" of a clump of cells, and about how "evil" abortion is. I also love the attitude of "The Only Moral Abortion is MY Abortion" that's displayed by right-to-lifers that have HAD abortions.

This website is pretty good information on that. "The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion" - When the Anti-Choice Choose (http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html)

Frankly, I don't think that anyone that has not been faced with the choice THEMSELVES can really be a judge of how people should react to their unplanned pregnancies.

Abortion is LEGAL. I'm GLAD it's legal---if you really think someone dies in that process, then it's STILL better than 2 people dying in a back alley with a butcher knife, or girls who try to use coat hangers on themselves. It's STILL better than being told you will die if you try to carry a child to term and have no recourse BUT to carry the child to term and die delivering it.

If you want abortion to be ILLEGAL, then by all means, work through channels to make it so. But please--stop with the moral propaganda for issues (like third trimester abortions) that have already been made illegal.

It doesn't matter if third trimester abortions are illegal or not, Gianna's story is relevant.

People can justify abortions for all manner of reasons that are valid to THEM, and I didn't know the pro-life movement viewed the life of the fetus as more important than the life of the mother. It's amazing how every time the subject comes up abortion supporters project imaginary views on us and get all dramatic about back alleys and coat hangers. You guys seem to think we're unfeeling, unsympathetic, intolerant, ignorant neanderthals.

I have no doubt that adoption is often traumatic for the birth mother but I cannot for the life of me see how anyone would rather their child be dead than have a chance to live happily with someone else, or "can't in good conscience support advising women to choose" life for their child. We are not talking about "a clump of cells," we're talking about people, and fighting for the rights of the most helpless and innocent is not "propaganda."

It's amazing how every time the subject comes up abortion supporters project imaginary views on us and get all dramatic about back alleys and coat hangers.
"

Ah I have heard Pro Life people say that with an abortion you could have just killed the next Einstein. Talk about dramatic and Imaginary.

Ah I have heard Pro Life people say that with an abortion you could have just killed the next Einstein. Talk about dramatic and Imaginary.

Dramatic, yet entirely possible. Imaginary was in reference to views not expressed but attributed to us anyway.

If I concede that abuse, incest, medical conditions i.e. health of mother may be legitimate reasons for abortions in a civil society would you in turn concede that the overwhelming vast majority of abortions performed are contraceptive ;therefore being a poor excuse for murdering an infant ?

I am entering this debate late because I have taken a AMHD break. But I am back and I feel compelled to answer.

I agree with Synn in so many ways on this issue. If planned parenthood wants to give g.c. then great. That might allow someone who can't afford medical care, support with family planning or conseling a chance to get what they need. Just because the give out the g.c. does not mean that everyone walking in the door is going to have an abortion.

That being said, I thank god every day that abortions are legal. As a person who knows someone who got pregnant due to a violent act I support abortions. I firmly believe that if my friend had to carry that baby to term then either keep it or give it up for adoption it would kill her. Why... to look at a child conceived from a night that almost killed you every day would be like seeing that night on a daily basis. On the other hand, knowing her as I do, I know that having a child and then giving it away would also kill her. Also, could you imagine when that child grew up and asked about their daddy... what do you say to that child then? Well I did not know your daddy he came up behind me... raped me and stabbed me?

Also, could you imagine when that child grew up and asked about their daddy...what do you say to that child then?? Well I did not know your daddy he came up behind me...raped me and stabbed me?

Here we go with the drama again, as if EVERY unplanned pregnancy had such tragic circumstances behind it. I second tom's challenge.

So Speech then you agree that it is possible that an abortion took out the next Hitler? Seems to me that is a good thing.

Here we go with the drama again, as if EVERY unplanned pregnancy had such tragic circumstances behind it. I second tom's challenge.

No NOT every unplanned prenancy does, but for those that do having the CHOICE to do something about it can be comforting

So Speech then you agree that it is possible that an abortion took out the next Hitler? seems to me that is a good thing.

Sure it's possible, but I still don't see how most abortions can ever be a good thing. It's way beyond anything I can possibly comprehend that so many people would be so adamant about defending the right to kill unborn children for virtually any reason.

I am not defending the right to kill anyone. I am defending the right for a woman (or a couple) to make their own choice. I do not want to control others decisions and I certainly don't want my decisions controlled by somebody that knows nothing about me, my life, or what brought me to make such a hard decision.

As Tom Stated I don't think abortion should be used as birth control but some people do use it for that and it is sad.

I have no kids and my fiancée and I don't want kids, but if she got pregnant I wouldn't say lets go get an abortion, I would say lets go to the Dr to see how far along you are and start preparing for a baby.

If she said she wanted an abortion I would fight her on that. Not because I think life is precious trust me I meet people everyday that should have been take out before they were born. I just think you should live up to your responsibilities. But I am not going to sit here and tell someone else how to live their life's. If they want to have an abortion go ahead it does not affect me at all.

That's just it Tuscany, it's not just a "choice," it's a child - as Gianna so vividly demonstrates. Seriously, what's the difference in giving someone the right to choose to kill a child for virtually any reason and giving them the right to choose to kill anyone else for virtually any reason? 9 months? Being in or out of the womb? I don't get it, it's not just a blob of tissue, a tumor to be removed for convenience.

Over 1 million abortion murders per year in the US... over 48 million since Roe . How many of them are truly decisions made about the health of the mother ;or rape etc. Why not call it what it really is... a barbarous form of contraception ?

Has everyone veiwed the insane idea brought to attention Dec 2 for holiday gift certificate?
The New York Times reported that 35 parent planning station across the Unitied States have offered the gift of death as a Christmas gift.

As quoted in the news:

Here's an original holiday gift idea to help the person who may have everything, including a little something they don't really want. A new way to mark the festive yearend celebration of life -- a gift certificate for an abortion.

I applaude Gianna Jessen who is an abortion survivor. And I ask that you to give your heart to her message. Don't miss part 2 also... I promise it is worth hearing.

Part 1
GodTube.com - davisc - Gianna Jessen - Abortion Survivor (Part 1 of 2) (http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=5062223d42b07ab68d62)


Part 2
GodTube.com - davisc - Gianna Jessen - Abortion Survivor (Part 2 of 2) (http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=5df82b8fe869c68cf7eb)



Ironic that Herod would have been all in favor of aborting and killing all male infants.
And what timing of PP to promote their "services" during the Christmas season :eek:




As to facts :






Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2002 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5407a1.htm)

The abortion rate for black women (29 per 1,000 women) was 3.0 times the rate for white women (10 per 1,000), whereas the abortion rate for women of other races (20 per 1,000 women) was 2.1 times the rate for white women.




Abortion is the ultimate in racism!!







g&p

As Tom Stated I don't think abortion should be used as birth control but some people do use it for that and it is sad.

I have no kids and my fiancee and I don't want kids, but if she got pregnant I wouldn't say lets go get an abortion, I would say lets go to the Dr to see how far along you are and start preparing for a baby.

If she said she wanted an abortion I would fight her on that. Not because I think life is precious trust me I meet people everyday that should have been take out before they were born. I just think you should live up to your responsibilities. But I am not going to sit here and tell someone else how to live their life's. If they want to have an abortion go ahead it does not affect me at all.

I agree with Spitve here. I don't think it should be used a birth control and I don't think I could ever have one... definately not as a form of because. But like Spitve it is not my place to tell someone how to live their life.

Depends I guess when you think human life begins and when that human life is eligible for legal constitutional protection .

It's not a "child" until it is born. It is a fetus.

Until it is viable outside of the womb, it really isn't even CLOSE to a child.

And really--how long does it take to PROVE rape, incest, abuse? Do you make her wait until it goes through courts? Or do you grant the abortion and THEN watch it go through courts? How many people will be falsely accused of horrendous crimes if you do?

As far as health of the mother--does her mental and emotional health mean nothing compared to her physical health? If it will literally make her crazy to raise a child or to give it to someone else to raise--doesn't that count as much as it causing her to hemorrhage? Who are YOU to decide what "health" is?

If everyone who is so adamantly against abortion went out and adopted a foster child that the mother couldn't bear to give up for adoption, but wasn't ready for and neglected or abused and had her children taken from her for it---well, I might concede your point. Maybe. But many of the kids in the foster care system weren't planned, weren't wanted, and now will have extremely tough lives loaded with mental and emotional issues because NO ONE wanted them.

So... you say no abortions because it's KILLING. What do you suggest those women do? Give birth, and then deal with the pain & suffering that is adoption? Give birth, raise their child in poverty, depending on the state (and tax dollars I feel can be better allocated) for every single thing she needs to raise the child?

Gianna is proof of nothing except that abortions where the fetus is VIABLE should not happen. How many abortions where the baby is able to just be born and survive actually happen?

Until it is viable outside of the womb, it really isn't even CLOSE to a child.




Can that same reasoning be applied to those in nursing homes, or those on ventilators, or those that need round the clock nursing care?

Is that the next step? That is some slippery slope.

As to what about rape ?




Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Reasons_for_abortion s)


In 2000, cases of rape or incest accounted for 1% of abortions.[9] Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following reasons for choosing an abortion:[10]





What of the other 99%?


As to "viability"

WPClinic.org : Choices You Can Live With » First Trimester (http://www.wpclinic.org/parenting/fetal-development/first-trimester/)


If we apply that reason to manufacturing, lets abort all produced goods before they reach the end of an assembly line because they are not " viable." Lets abort growing food because they are not "viable" to the end of growing season.





g&p

Honestly you know what kills me the most... there are some people who believe in pro - life so much that they TAKE ANOTHER LIFE in support of it. It happened in another city close to where I live. Pro-life demonstrators killed a Dr. who was entering a clinic... hmmmm not to pro-life if you ask me.

Can that same reasoning be applied to those in nursing homes, or those on ventilators, or those that need round the clock nursing care?


If you have to be taken care of 24 hours a day or need machine's to make you live then you should have the choice of assisted suicide. I don't understand why people would fight that. Lets see if I incurable cancer and Have a year to live I have to suffer then my family suffers financially and emotionally and then I die. OR I could have an assisted suicide I don't suffer any more my family doesn't suffer I just die. Why is that wrong?

What is viability ? Every child depends on an adult long past their birth . Premies can be cared for outside the womb and survive . The world's youngest premie was born at 21 weeks .

Ironic that Herod would have been all in favor of aborting and killing all male infants.
And what timing of PP to promote their "services" during the Christmas season :eek:


g&p

Yes and if you think about this, would we like what Christ would say? I realize not all believe in God, but even those that don't believe, usually come forward to say they are capable of love for others.

The fact is that at 10 weeks the baby has feet, 24 days the heart begins to beat, 48 days the brain waves can be reported. And spiritually God has given the soul to the womb, as was Christ present in spirit when Mary told of her pregancy to her cousin the very next day. So from conception the soul is present..

Men in war give up their life for our rights to freedom and life. The willingness to give and love others is shown of their hearts and courage. We have heroes around us each day that give their lives for others. And as a mother, I would give my life for a child any day of the week.

We should bring love forward and stand above any evil.. The price to end evil should never be death of a innocent baby.. We fight evil and destroy evil because it is evil.

Can anyone look upon a baby and say it is evil?

Part 1
GodTube.com - davisc - Gianna Jessen - Abortion Survivor (Part 1 of 2)

Part 2
GodTube.com - davisc - Gianna Jessen - Abortion Survivor (Part 2 of 2)

Abortion is evil, and my heart can never justify the killing of an innocent baby.

21 weeks is still middle of the second trimester, not the FIRST trimester, which is all most states allow for abortion. It's not even CLOSE to full term.

"Viable" 1: capable of living ; especially : having attained such form and development as to be normally capable of surviving outside the mother's womb <a viable fetus>
2: capable of growing or developing <viable seeds> <viable eggs>
3 a: capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately <viable alternatives> b: capable of existence and development as an independent unit <the colony is now a viable state> c (1): having a reasonable chance of succeeding <a viable candidate> (2): financially sustainable <a viable enterprise>

From here viable - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/viable)

Yes, a child depends on care for long after it is out of the womb---but the difference is that the care can come from ANYONE at that point. Prior to that, it is dependent SOLELY upon the pregnant woman.

PS--I don't believe in your god. His rules are absolutely worthless when arguing your point with me.

Believe what you like. I will continue to fight for the rights for women to choose. And believe me, if somehow those rights are overturned, I will make sure that the rights some of you take for granted about choosing in your own life are going to be overturned as well---rights such as choosing when to have a child, whether to have a child, how many children can you have, what kind of birth control you have to use, and whether it is permanent after you have your last child. If MY reproductive choices get taken away in favor of a clump of cells, you're damned right that I will work towards getting EVERYONE'S reproductive choices taken away.

And you want to talk about slippery slopes?

You guys talk about "viability" but ignore things like value. You say it isn't a child it's just a "fetus." Yeah, with fingers and toes, and eyes and ears...

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGC/StaticFiles/Images/Show/22xx/222x/2228_in_the_womb-4_04700300.jpg

http://blogs.abcnews.com/scienceandsociety/images/in_the_womb.jpg

Thank you National Geographic.

Babies look like aliens to me. I know we all start like that but man babies are ugly.

what is viability ? every child depends on an adult long past their birth . Premies can be cared for outside the womb and survive . The world's youngest premie was born at 21 weeks .

I have a niece who was not much more than that, she weighed 1 lb 8 ounces when born. That's a less than 1% chance of survival according to statistics. She's a bit small still but a healthy, gorgeous, bright, 8 year old girl now. I can't imagine not giving her a chance.

So...you say no abortions because it's KILLING. What do you suggest those women do? Give birth, and then deal with the pain & suffering that is adoption? Give birth, raise their child in poverty, depending on the state (and tax dollars I feel can be better allocated) for every single thing she needs to raise the child ?

The pain and suffering? Is it because she has feeling of love for this child? because that is a reality that usually is found in the heart. Love for a baby. Otherwise there is no pain or suffering in giving a child their right to live and allow the adoption. I am not without reason to understand the emotional high jacking there would be in a situation of rape. But I feel we to quickly jump to abortion being the answer in favor because we are programmed in thinking what if. Also people react to what others might think or say if indeed the mother kept the baby.

We kill babies in abortion, but we allow men that rape women to live. Now how sick is that? And whether you believe in God or not, our nation of Christians was set up as a nation under God. The bible tells us to kill the man that rapes and murders. Send those back to God where they came, and God will deal with their sin. In other words destroy evil, and protect man and woman from evil.

I believe we have made the wrong choice in what is right. If we followed God's instruction, I could believe and imagine there would be less rapes..



Gianna is proof of nothing except that abortions where the fetus is VIABLE should not happen. How many abortions where the baby is able to just be born and survive actually happen?

Did you view the decision Gianna said? Up until President Bush stopped this action by putting it into law, it was a regular occurance. So we are gaining in the forward stand for life.

I'm done. Unsubscribing.

If we followed God's instruction, I could believe and imagine there would be less rapes..
You've had 200 years, it's not working.

You've had 200 years, it's not working.

200 years of what, NK? Following God's instruction? Since Roe v. Wade in 1973 there have been some 52 million abortions in the US. Is that what you call following God's instruction?

Sorry, meant to say 2000 years. And I was referring to rapes.

You've had 200 years, it's not working.


Sorry, meant to say 2000 years. And I was referring to rapes.

Not sure what you mean.. What has been done 2000 year with rape that isn't working?

We certainly haven't done what God instructed for murders and men who rape women..

It doesn't matter if third trimester abortions are illegal or not, Gianna's story is relevant.



So is Synnen's story relevant. Very actually. But because it doesn't agree with your beliefs you simply ignore it.

If third trimester abortions are now illegal then I don't see how Gianna's story is relevant.

And posting cute little photos isn't a real argument in my opinion.
Ill find some photo's of a kid where grand daddy decided to get mummy pregnant. Or maybe some photos of a mother
And you talk about drama and imaginary...

So is Synnen's story relevant. Very actually. but because it doesn't agree with your beliefs you simply ignore it.

If third trimester abortions are now illegal then i dont see how Gianna's story is relevant.

And posting cute little photos isn't a real argument in my opinion.
Ill find some photo's of a kid where grand daddy decided to get mummy pregnant. Or maybe some photos of a mother
And you talk about drama and imaginary...

Skell, I never said Synnen's story wasn't relevant and I don't ignore it. In fact I said "I have no doubt that adoption is often traumatic for the birth mother," which I guess you missed.

Gianna's story is MOST relevant regardless of what abortions are illegal, or have you forgotten those "fetuses" become Giannas? And as tom pointed out the youngest surviving infant was born at 21 weeks, along with my 1 lb 8 ounce niece - both being born in the second trimester.

And it's nice to know you think National Geographic's groundbreaking presentation of life in the womb is "imaginary."

And it's nice to know you think National Geographic's groundbreaking presentation of life in the womb is "imaginary."The images you posted are later term and computer generated.

I am totally confused how the rights of an unborn child is more important than the rights of a mother. I think that people think that woman go off willy nilly and say hey I got pregnant... crap... guess I need an abortion. When the reality is that for most people it is a hard decision.

I would not judge a woman who had an abortion harshly because I do not know what has lead her to make such a decision.

I am totally confused how the rights of an unborn child is more important than the rights of a mother. I think that people think that woman go off willy nilly and say hey I got pregnant...crap...guess I need an abortion. When the reality is that for most people it is a hard decision.

I would not judge a woman who had an abortion harshly because I do not know what has lead her to make such a decision.

Again, projecting views on us not stated. Who has said the rights of an unborn child are more important than the rights of the mother?

Not saying it's not an easy decision . Just saying it is for the most part a wrong decision. Often we have gut wrenching and heart breaking circumstances where the taking of a life is off the table as a remedy . No one is saying the mother's rights are less than the unborn's .We are saying the unborn have an equal right to live.

As has been pointed out before in this ;we are now talking genocide numbers here . 50+ million .

By taking away the woman's right to chose you are stating that the baby is more important then the mother.

Tom- but by not allowing the mother rights... by saying you must have this child... that is not showing equal rights.

How does someone put the baby's right second to the mother? Both are individuals with the same equal rights.

Today, approximately 90% of all abortions occur in the first 12 weeks. That means the baby can be 84 days of age.

Cited in American Prospect, the National Abortion Rights Action League (NARAL) asserts that women's reproductive rights are more restricted now than at the time of Roe in 1973. There are two questions at the forefront of the debate: should "partial birth" abortions ("intact dilation and extraction") be legal and should first trimester abortions remain legal?

The most controversial issue is the so-called "partial birth" abortion, a rare procedure. Beginning in the mid-90s, Republicans in the U.S. House of Representative and U.S. Senate introduced legislation to ban "partial birth" abortions. In late 2003, Congress passed and President George W. Bush signed the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (HR 760, S 3).

CP refer: Issue Summary: Abortion (http://uspolitics.about.com/od/electionissues/i/abortion.htm)

As a christain, I feel we have failed to believe in the power of God, and in the Will of God. But again everyone has free will choice of heart.

Yes I do think the unborn's right to live is greater than the mother's right to choose to kill the baby.

The images you posted are later term and computer generated.

Are they accurate or not? You guys will seemingly go to any length to deny that it IS a child in the womb. Are these accurate and real enough for you?

BBC - In pictures: Watch me grow (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/3847319.stm)

As a woman I feel I need to leave this group. Its sad

You guys will seemingly go to any length to deny that it IS a child in the womb. Yes it is a representation of a child in a womb. No one denied that. I should know, my wife had an ultrasound pretty every month right up until a week before delivering.

What's sad is so many people seem to think an unborn child has so little value.

Skell, I never said Synnen's story wasn't relevant and I don't ignore it. In fact I said "I have no doubt that adoption is often traumatic for the birth mother," which I guess you missed.

Gianna's story is MOST relevant regardless of what abortions are illegal, or have you forgotten those "fetuses" become Giannas? And as tom pointed out the youngest surviving infant was born at 21 weeks, along with my 1 lb 8 ounce niece - both being born in the second trimester.

And it's nice to know you think National Geographic's groundbreaking presentation of life in the womb is "imaginary."

No I don't. I think they are 'Amazing photographs'. But irrelevant in this argument in my opinion none the less.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/photography/what-amazing-photograph-44529.html

Its weird. You guys are quite happy to allow thousands of children to be gunned down whilst they sit quietly at school each year and blame it on "personally responsibility", yet you cause such an uproar about the so called "murder" of unborn children. Now that is SAD!

Maybe you can come up with a new bumper sticker.

"Guns dont kill people, abortions do!!""

Thousands each year? Where? By my count there have been 96 murders by firearm in US schools since the beginning of 1998. Each a tragedy, but nowhere near the 52 million abortions since Roe v. Wade.

Oh that's OK then! Sorry!!

I'm getting those bumper stickers printed. They'll be a hit. Right up there with the smiley face and Nike's tick sign. $$$$$

Oh that's ok then!! Sorry!!!

I'm getting those bumper stickers printed. They'll be a hit. Right up there with the smiley face and Nike's tick sign. $$$$$

Come on Skell, I said each was a tragedy, but there is a monumental difference between 9.6 per year and thousands per year. But go ahead make your bumper sticker, I'm sure it would be a hit in Madison, WI.

No, I understand. I'm just saying though that the issues of the death of an unborn child seems more important than the death of a child simply because of religious standpoints! You want policies that reflect your religious view. Yet when it comes to guns you want policies that reflect your constitutional rights. Youse confuse me sometimes. Nothing more!

I'm just saying though that the issues of the death of an unborn child seems more important than the death of a child simply because of religious standpoints

Not true . This posting's subject is abortion not school violence.


You want policies that reflect your religious view. Yet when it comes to guns you want policies that reflect your constitutional rights.
I for one have not in any comment advanced a religious position.Mine is a constitutional argument (opposing the very flawed Roe V Wade Supreme Court Decision);as is my argument in favor of gun ownership . Both defend the right to live.As abortion numbers skyrocket into genocide numbers it is clear that abortion, will never be rare, so long as it is promoted as a constitutional right. Women will never be deterred from killing "unwanted" children unless and until abortion is once again condemned by civil society as a morally reprehensible homicide.

I don't recall making a religious argument but maybe I did, but I know I have spoken about rights. It really doesn't need to be a religious argument if you ask me.