where do I even begin. First off this is going to get really crazy and don't know how many people will believe me . But here goes nothing...

I used to not believe in god , I practiced black magic and through a website a guy was talking about lucifer was the creator of mankind and all humans where made by him .I actually believed this for years . Anyway one christmas morning this was about 4 or 5 years ago. I went out to smoke when I smoked Id guess it was maybe 2 am . I was standing on my porch smoking and noticed the full moon which was close and very bright. I stared at the moon as I smoked and some kind of fog slowly came out of it. I kept thinkn what in the world is that. Then it formed the face of jesus christ I could see his eyes his hair his ears and the expression on his face was one of anger and his eyes stared at me hard... it about scared me to death.I standed there speechless his face was there maybe 20 seconds then that fog slowly disappeared .

well now I know there indeed is a god .and it isn't no lucifer... I still didn't know much about religion or christianity.. untill some time later I saw a video on YouTube ab9out going to hell and being saved and going to heaven. I can remember as a child 11 or 12 going to church of god but never paid attention really . So now I'm learning about hell at this point... and watched a video on YouTube this baptist guy says just ask jesus for his gift of salvation and then u can go to heaven and still sin all u want... no church going,baptism nothn, just a prayer of give me the gift for give my sins and your good to go. So I done it...

I thought OK so I did just that.. cause I thought this guy was telling the truth you can sin and do all u want and go to heaven.. well after reading the bible and studying a bit I found out this isn't the case at all...

I became so angry at all of this being lied to by this once saved always doctrine...
I screamed angryly to the sky I'm so sick of all this religious crap I can't take it anymore... I rejected god and christs salvation saying I don't care anymore I reject you god and I reject u jesus and your salvation u can send me to hell for all I care .

Not only that but some time later . I said outloud to the sky maybe your not even a good god jesus christ your probably some evil spirit.. thats right I think your an evil spirit...

some time has passed about a year and half since I said this stuff...
and I've recently got back into christianity . And have been reading the bible like never before... and watchn a lot of jimmy swaggart and different preaching shows online... and my mind is changing I'm over my angryness and want to get right with the lord. There's a problum though...


I recently read about the unforgivable sin where these guys said jesus had an unclean spirit and he said no forgiveness for them... and I done the same thing that these men had done... I called jesus an evil spirit

12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.

12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.

12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.



not only that a christian site said the following

Those whom God has called to receive the knowledge of salvation will not be given a second chance if they sin willfully. Hebrews 10:26-29; 6:4-6.
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,



So I have a few strikes against me I've done the unforgivable sin. And said jesus u are an evil spirit , and according to the christian site I've rejected salvation and willfully sinned. They also said jesus died once for each man. If u reject or willfully sin you will just have to go to hell that's the way it is for jesus can't sacrifice himself again.tell me what u think am I done for ? Am I going to hell with no way out..

I became so angry at all of this being lied to by this once saved always doctrine.....
I screamed angryly to the sky im so sick of all this religious crap i can't take it anymore.... i rejected god and christs salvation saying i dont care anymore I reject you god and I reject u jesus and ur salvation u can send me to hell for all i care .

Not only that but some time later . I said outloud to the sky maybe ur not even a good god jesus christ ur prolly some evil spirit..thats right I think ur an evil spirit.....

[snip for brevity]

I recently read about the unforgivable sin where these guys said jesus had an unclean spirit and he said no forgiveness for them... and i done the same thing that these men had done.....I called jesus an evil spirit

First and most importantly, I see nothing in what you said suggesting that you committed the unforgivable sin which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy against the Father and the Son can be forgiven.

Second, the fact that you are concerned about it may in fact be evidence that the Holy Spirit is in fact still drawing you to Him, leading you to a closer walk with God. That would not happen if you had committed the unforgivable sin.

The verse regarding wilfully sinning must be taken in context of both the local area of scripture and the original language. The reference is not so much referring to sin generally, but to a specific sin of rejecting salvation. So in context, it is referring to someone who has been saved, and directly rejects their salvation.

The third point that I would like to make is that salvation is not as easy as just saying a prayer or any set of words. It is something that takes place in your being, or what we commonly call your heart - it is the innermost part of your being, and the change is to make a decision to accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour and submit yourself to Him. Once again, if you have committed this sin, it seems unlikely that you would be interested in coming to the Lord now.

I am not sure how much you know about the gospel, but if you would like to discuss further, I would be quite willing to take this offline with you. You can email me at [email protected]

I'd like to second what Tj3 has written. Try to remember that even when you cry out angrily at God you are at least still speaking to him; you are still having a conversation with him (and it is evident that he still speaks to you). Be patient with yourself, and let your faith continue to grow in you. What Tj says about the heart is true, and very important. You may have noticed that he and I disagree about a lot on these boards, but we certainly agree about you.

where do I even begin. First off this is going to get really crazy and don't know how many people will believe me . But here goes nothing...

I believe you. I've had some similar experiences.


I used to not believe in god ,

I was an atheist from about the age of 13, to about 27.


I practiced black magic and through a website a guy was talking about lucifer was the creator of mankind and all humans where made by him .I actually believed this for years . Anyway one christmas morning this was about 4 or 5 years ago. I went out to smoke when I smoked Id guess it was maybe 2 am . I was standing on my porch smoking and noticed the full moon which was close and very bright. I stared at the moon as I smoked and some kind of fog slowly came out of it. I kept thinkn what in the world is that. Then it formed the face of jesus christ I could see his eyes his hair his ears and the expression on his face was one of anger and his eyes stared at me hard... it about scared me to death.I standed there speechless his face was there maybe 20 seconds then that fog slowly disappeared .

well now I know there indeed is a god .and it isn't no lucifer... I still didn't know much about religion or christianity.. untill some time later I saw a video on YouTube ab9out going to hell and being saved and going to heaven. I can remember as a child 11 or 12 going to church of god but never paid attention really . So now I'm learning about hell at this point... and watched a video on YouTube this baptist guy says just ask jesus for his gift of salvation and then u can go to heaven and still sin all u want... no church going,baptism nothn, just a prayer of give me the gift for give my sins and your good to go. So I done it...

I thought OK so I did just that.. cause I thought this guy was telling the truth you can sin and do all u want and go to heaven.. well after reading the bible and studying a bit I found out this isn't the case at all...

I became so angry at all of this being lied to by this once saved always doctrine...
I screamed angryly to the sky I'm so sick of all this religious crap I can't take it anymore... I rejected god and christs salvation saying I don't care anymore I reject you god and I reject u jesus and your salvation u can send me to hell for all I care .

Not only that but some time later . I said outloud to the sky maybe your not even a good god jesus christ your probably some evil spirit.. thats right I think your an evil spirit...

some time has passed about a year and half since I said this stuff...
and I've recently got back into christianity . And have been reading the bible like never before... and watchn a lot of jimmy swaggart and different preaching shows online... and my mind is changing I'm over my angryness and want to get right with the lord. There's a problum though...


I recently read about the unforgivable sin where these guys said jesus had an unclean spirit and he said no forgiveness for them... and I done the same thing that these men had done... I called jesus an evil spirit

12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.

12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.

12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.



not only that a christian site said the following

Those whom God has called to receive the knowledge of salvation will not be given a second chance if they sin willfully. Hebrews 10:26-29; 6:4-6.
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,



So I have a few strikes against me I've done the unforgivable sin.

No you haven't.


and said jesus u are an evil spirit , and according to the christian site I've rejected salvation and willfully sinned.

You haven't rejected salvation until you've quit seeking salvation.


they also said jesus died once for each man. If u reject or willfully sin you will just have to go to hell that's the way it is for jesus can't sacrifice himself again.tell me what u think am I done for ? Am I going to hell with no way out..

I don't know. That's between you and God. But if you want to go to heaven and to be with God, then reject Satan and all his works. And embrace Jesus Christ.

As for me, I'm Catholic. I believe the Catholic Church teaches the Fullness of Truth and I invite you to seek within the Catholic Church for your own salvation. Here are some Catholic resources where you might want to begin:

The Catholic Community forum.

These are good group of knowledgeable Catholics who can answer many of your questions. A priest also responds to questions on this forum.
Catholic Community Forum - Powered by vBulletin (http://www.catholicforum.com/forums/index.php)

St. Paul Bible Study

This is an excellent Bible Study and its free.
St. Paul Center For Biblical Theology (http://www.salvationhistory.com/)

You might also look in your local phone book and find the closest Catholic Church to your home. They generally have classes and talks. And of course, they all have the Mass.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I agree with what I have read the others say.
If you committed the unforgivable sin God would have given you over to a reprobate mind and you would not have an interest in pleasing God and learning and having a thirst to grow spiritually.
God knows your heart and it is the result that matters not what it took to get you there. Paul murdered Christians and look how God used him to his glory.
Also remember you can not have faith if you never knew what it was to doubt. You can not appreciate joy if you never knew sorrow.

So continue growing in God and eventually your doubts will give way to knowing God loves you.

Ok, I may get POUNCED on but I'm going to tell you what I believe Jesus means when he talks about the "unforgivable sin". It is MY thought. Well first off, I would like to say.. NO you haven't committed it. AND then second of course rejecting Christ every time the Holy Spirit prompts you to say Yes.. finally the Holy Spirit leaves... and you don't get the opportunity and die in your sins, you end up in hell. THAT is a given.

But I believe that Jesus is talking about all the miracles he performed right before the nation of Israels eyes while he was on EARTH and they walked away unbelieving. I believe THAT is the unforgivable sin. Take a good look at Judas... he knew Jesus like WE will never know him. As a man... GOD but a man walking on this earth. He saw everything that the Lord did... every miracle and the thing is... he didn't really believe. I believe all those people that walked off unbelieving when the Lord raised Lazarus from the dead... GRIEVED the HOly Spirt and they walked away... UNBELIEVERS.

Those are my thoughts anyway. As long as you have breath and you haven't taken the mark of the beast... you STILL can be saved.

You can always be forgiven if you repent, And you can accept Christ by just accepting him if you really mean it, not just saying it.

It is that easy, if you just want it to be

I just wish that all of us here have the will to put ourselves on the cross like you do.God has not given up on you, please don't give up on Him!
God is able to give life to dead dry bones and I am sure that you are in a better condition than that!Grabb my hand brother, I will help you with your cross!My shoulder is at your service!

A person who has sinned against the Holy Spirit doesn't care if they can ever be saved. To shut out the Holy Spirit is to shut off the only means by which a person would want to be saved.

No, you haven't committed that sin.

However the devil will keep telling you that you have. That's his method of making you doubt how great the love of God is for you. God does not turn away those who seek Him.

Over 400 years before Jesus came into the world to redeem us, God had Isaiah write this of Him:

Mt 12:20-21
20 A bruised reed he will not break,
And a smoldering wick he will not snuff out,
Till he leads justice to victory.
21 In his name the nations will put their hope."
NIV

You sound pretty "bruised" and are just "smoldering" in faith toward God. But He will get you straightened and on fire in faith. Just keep on doing what you have started to do: read His word:

2 Pe 1:19-21

19 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
NIV

The Holy Spirit of God is the one who had the Bible written and He is the one makes it alive and understandable in our hearts. It's not a difficult book for those who are seeking to know God and His will for their lives. You may need a teacher or two to help, but you already know that you can understand it......even as you did when you rejected that "you can be saved and keep on living in sin" teaching.

You also ought to know that God Himself CHOSE you. Or you wouldn't be here asking us about Him.

2 Th 2:13-17
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.
NIV

Ro 8:28-35

28 We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies; 34 who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us? 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
RSV

God has an exciting life that He wants to lead you into and through... before you get to meet Him face to face in eternity.

I am not a "scholar" here, and while I am not Catholic, I grew up in the faith, and I honestly believe the following...

Lord I am not worthy to receive thee, but only say the word and I shall be healed.

I believe there is nothing you can do that is beyond the salvation offered to you if you are true and righteous in repentance.

This is not a blank check for you to do your bidding and then seek redemption. That is false action. It is deceit.

But Christ did not seek out the most devout. He did not spend His precious time with those on the righteous path. He lived his life among us... the incomplete, the lost, the forsaken.

Please... do not for one moment think that you are beyond redemption, beyond salvation.

This is just not true.

But do you ask can you be forgiven for you past... or do you ask can you be forgiven for the deeds you plan?

Only God knows at what point you become evil and beyond redemption... personally, I believe we are all hindered, marred, incomplete.

But at some point you must choose right from wrong... and you seem a liitle eager to accept a fate of pain...

Why?

ironsheik7,
I agree with what Tj3, Akoue, De Maria, Fr Chuck and much of what others have already said here to help you.
I welcome you to the belief in God and Jesus Christ.
I believe what you saw in the moon that night was a vision meant particularly for you.
One sight that has been of great help to people like you and me id the Coming Home Network.
It is for people who want to come home to God and His religion.
You can ask questions and converse with experts with any problems you may have with the truth about Christianity and anyone who MAY try to mislead you.
You can get in touch with it at the following web site;
Just click on it...
The Coming Home Network International (http://www.chnetwork.org/)
The Holy Spirit is a persons best friend.
I'll pray for the Holy Spirit to continue to be the best friend to you and guide you.
You are on a marvelous journey to a happy spiritual life that can bring you much joy.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

If you have figured out your mistake and noe believe our fatherlord on heaven, then I don't believe you are going to hell. Just ask and pray for forgiveness. Jesus died on thechrist for every sin we make now and in the future, but you should still pray and ask him to forgive you. We are all human and we all make mistakes, that's why no one is perfect.

secretive,
That's some good advice.
I hope he takes is.
Fred

I believe you. I've had some similar experiences.

As for me, I'm Catholic. I believe the Catholic Church teaches the Fullness of Truth and I invite you to seek within the Catholic Church for your own salvation.


Oohra!

First and most importantly, I see nothing in what you said suggesting that you committed the unforgivable sin which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy against the Father and the Son can be forgiven.
[/email]

The Father is the Son Who is the Holy Spirit. The Son is the Holy Spirit Who is the Father. The Holy Spirit is the Son Who is the Father. They are all one and the same eternal God. So blasphemy against the Father or the Son IS blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is believing that your sin is too bad for God to forgive. He can and will forgive any and all of your sins as long as you come to Him as a child; with an open and contrite heart.

The Father is the Son Who is the Holy Spirit. The Son is the Holy Spirit Who is the Father. The Holy Spirit is the Son Who is the Father. They are all one and the same eternal God. So blasphemy against the Father or the Son IS blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is believing that your sin is too bad for God to forgive. He can and will forgive any and all of your sins as long as you come to Him as a child; with an open and contrite heart.

What you describe is known as "modalism" or "Oneness theology" is is generally described as a heresy. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons and yet are one God.

Matt 12:31-32
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

DominusVobiscum ,
Welcome.
Good for you, another firm Catholic believer.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

We all made mistakes.. That is why we need forgiveness.. We all have sins.. The most important part is what are you now...
If you read the Bible like you said.. You will find that Jesus himselfe was on earth to help the siners, not the ones that are not lost..
When the ones that didn't believe in him, nor they did latre on.. Those people were in the ones that will be send to heaven, and spoke of them too.. But YOU.. not that I can tell you my friend.. It's you how walk the road.. you alone can take yourself to heaven or to hell..
Your believe and your work in this life, is what drive you to go to hell or heaven, not unfinished stories..
God bless
Sam

samdarwen,
You are right on that.
It is we and what we do and don't do that takes us to the Judged who judges our works or non works about where we will go.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Scripture says that those who have received Christ as Saviour are not judged by works, but rather His righteousness is imputed to us:

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Scripture says that those who have received Christ as Saviour are not judged by works, but rather His righteousness is imputed to us:

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

If it does say that it isn't saying it in what you've just quoted. What this says is that when we confess our sins we are forgiven and cleansed of their impurity. It doesn't say anything about whether we are judged by works.

If it does say that it isn't saying it in what you've just quoted. What this says is that when we confess our sins we are forgiven and cleansed of their impurity. It doesn't say anything about whether or not we are judged by works.

The fact that ALL sin has been removed should have been, I would have expected, obvious to all that ALL unrighteousness, including works are removed when we are saved. But perhaps some missed that point.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

The fact that ALL sin has been removed should have been, I would have expected, obvious to all that ALL unrighteousness, including works are removed when we are saved. But perhaps some missed that point.

The verse you quoted says:

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

It says that if we confess our sins we are forgiven. It doesn't say "when we are saved", it says "if we confess". Notice that it doesn't say "all sin", it says "our sins". Our sins are forgiven. Then it says "and", so in addition to our sins being forgiven something else happens: we are cleansed of "all unrighteousness".

It still doesn't say anything about works. And I think it's really odd that you would say that our works, even the righteous ones, "are removed". The verse doesn't say that at all. Again, no mention of works at all.


Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

This also doesn't show that works are no part of salvation. There is a semicolon, and the word after the semicolon is "it". To what does "it" refer? "It" doesn't refer to salvation, because the noun "salvation" doesn't occur. The verb "have been saved" occurs, but "it" has to refer to a noun. So that means it refers either to "grace" or "faith". Take your pick: either "it" refers back to "grace" (grace is a gift of God) or it refers back to "faith" (faith is a gift of God). I'm fine with either one.

Close reading of the grammar of Scripture is crucial if one is to understand what it is saying. Otherwise, one gets distortion.

The verse you quoted says:

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

It says that if we confess our sins we are forgiven. It doesn't say "when we are saved", it says "if we confess". Notice that it doesn't say "all sin", it says "our sins". Our sins are forgiven. Then it says "and", so in addition to our sins being forgiven something else happens: we are cleansed of "all unrighteousness".

Are you saying that you believe that an unsaved person can be cleansed of all unrighteousness? Could you please show us from scripture where that is taught?


It still doesn't say anything about works. And I think it's really odd that you would say that our works, even the righteous ones, "are removed". The verse doesn't say that at all. Again, no mention of works at all.

Where there is no righteousness, there is no sin by which we can be judged. It appears that you have a different definition of salvation than we find in scripture. Perhaps you will share you definition of what salvation means with us.

Then you claim that Ephesians does not say that works are not part of salvation. An interesting theory especially since this passage specifically and explicity does mention that salvation has nothing to do with works.


This also doesn't show that works are no part of salvation.


There is a semicolon, and the word after the semicolon is "it".

Really, and what exactly do you think that this "it" refers to immediately following a phrase speaking about salvation?



To what does "it" refer? "It" doesn't refer to salvation, because the noun "salvation" doesn't occur. The verb "have been saved" occurs, but "it" has to refer to a noun. So that means it refers either to "grace" or "faith". Take your pick: either "it" refers back to "grace" (grace is a gift of God) or it refers back to "faith" (faith is a gift of God). I'm fine with either one.

This argument ignores the entire context, which has one topic - salvation:

Eph 2:1-10
2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Yet you would have me believe that in the last half of one verse, the topic changed.

Nice try, but I think that even if you showed this to a child, the reference is so clear that it would not be missed.

Akoue,
Yes it does.
Fred

I would say my friend that if you counting on not to be Judge because you think you are called Christine, Then I would feel sorry for you..
To be one of the Christ's people, you need to believe and do what he order you to do, and not to just count on his death on the Cross for you...
To be a Christian, you have to live like one.. And the ones that are Christens, are the ones that do the rightness not the wrong doings counting of the forgiveness later on..
You have to be Christian by working and doing as one,, and if you are, then you won't be making wrong, and you won't have what to fear on the Judgment day..
I hope you will have an open mind, and understand the different between been called Christine and being a real one.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but I think some one need to explain it to you.
Peace
Sam

God loves you no matter what your sin is. He will forgive you, but you have to choose to change. He will always love you

I would not agree with you more about one thing... Some of us missing the point here..
To be forgiven is something we have to work on.. We can't be bad people and expect forgiveness, No my friend.. We have to choose the right path first.. To accept Jesus Christ, we first have to accept his way.. we can't just take the short way and count on forgiveness..
Then all killers and bad people will go to heaven my friend... We have to accept Jesus first for us to be accepted and forgiven, and when we do.. Then we can't walk in the wrong path knowing and believe we are saved... You are Catholic.. And I value that and I like it.. But my friend, Can we just think for a moment? Think of what it means to be forgiven..
Maybe then, you will see my point, and I think and believe it's the right point, with all respect to whatever that you believe.
Peace
Sam

Really? Golly gee wiz, how's about that thief on the cross? He didn't have to to WORK out his "forgiveness". To forgive someone you must "work" on that but God forgives us.. just as we are when we turn to him.

Now please, having said THAT I don't believe we have a license to sin... the Lord will not allow it. There IS a sin unto death... you want to keep it up and the Lord may just take you home.

Thank you for your sarcasm.. I will just ask you to read the Bible and see if we both can understand the same thing... If I was you, I would've start I John.. try to read and tell me what do you understand from John 13,15, maybe you want to read what he told Judas..
In 13,14/ 21 and 23.. If what I saw was true.. I believe that to have God's word and live by it means to be Christine, other wise, we just fake it, and wish to continue on our wrong and never to be the ones that he meant..
I ask God for his forgiveness, for myself and you all..
Non of us has a license to send to hill or heaven.. We all sinners, and we all need forgiveness
, But forgiveness don't come because you calling yourself Christine, nor because you believe he died on the Cross for your sin.. No my friend.. It's the first stipe to use that scruffy, the first stipe to claim it even, IS to do what he Commanded you to do.. which is loving him by doing what he want you to do...
I feel sorry for the way most people believe if they do believe that.. I ask you all to read the Bible away from what some one told you, but the way it is.
Peace
Sam

I would say my friend that if you counting on not to be Judge because you think you are called Christine,, Then I would feel sorry for you..
To be one of the Christ's people, you need to believe and do what he order you to do, and not to just count on his death on the Cross for you...

Christians will be judged - according to scripture we will be judged to determine what crowns we receive as reards for our works. Christians have been forgiven their sins, therefore our works are not a determining factor as to whether we are saved. Scripture is very clear that good works follow salvation, not the other way around.

Those who have not received Christ as Saviour are under the law, and are judged by their works for salvation. Since Romans 3:23 is clear that all have sinned, then those who are not saved are facing an eternity in hell. Read Galatians 3.

Are you saying that you believe that an unsaved person can be cleansed of all unrighteousness? Could you please show us from scripture where that is taught?

I am making no broader theological claim. I am simply pointing out what the verse says, and what it doesn't. It doesn't say anything one way or another about works.


Then you claim that Ephesians does not say that works are not part of salvation. An interesting theory especially since this passage specifically and explicity does mention that salvation has nothing to do with works.

I am saying that the passage from Ephesians that you quote does not say that works are not a part of salvation.

No it doesn't say that. See below.


Really, and what exactly do you think that this "it" refers to immediately following a phrase speaking about salvation?

This argument ignores the entire context, which has one topic - salvation:

Eph 2:1-10
2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

While I agree that the context is salvation, notice that the word "salvation" does not occur even once in this passage. "It" in the clause under discussion clearly refers to "grace": Grace is not a product of works but is a gift of God. "By grace you have been saved", "His grace and kindness", "by grace you have been saved", "it <grace> is the gift of God, not of works".

Grace is God's unmerited favor. It cannot be won by doing good works. Works alone are not salvific. The word "it" clearly does not refer to salvation; that wouldn't even make grammatical sense; the word "salvation" is not used in this passage, even though it is talking about salvation. It is talking about the role of grace in salvation, and it is telling us that grace is a wholly gratuitous gift of God.

But, as you know, grace and salvation aren't the same thing. Salvation requires faith and works, together, not one without the other. Faith and works are each necessary conditions for salvation, but neither of them (in the absence of the other) is a sufficient condition for salvation.


Nice try, but I think that even if you showed this to a child, the reference is so clear that it would not be missed.

I agree. I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble with simple grammar.

Thank you for your sarcasm.. I will just ask you to read the Bible and see if we both can understand the same thing...If I was you,, I would've start I John.. try to read and tell me what do you understand from John 13,15,, maybe you want to read what he told Judas..
in 13,14/ 21 and 23.. If what I saw was true.. I believe that to have God's word and live by it means to be Christine, other wise, we just fake it, and wish to continue on our wrong and never to be the ones that he meant..
I ask God for his forgiveness, for myself and you all..
Non of us has a license to send to hill or heaven.. We all sinners, and we all need forgiveness
, But forgiveness don't come because you calling yourself Christine, nor because you believe he died on the Cross for your sin.. No my friend.. It's the first stipe to use that scruffy,, the first stipe to claim it even,, IS to do what he Commanded you to do.. which is loving him by doing what he want you to do...
I feel sorry for the way most people believe if they do believe that.. I ask you all to read the Bible away from what some one told you, but the way it is.
Peace
Sam

Sam,

don't take my saracsm personal.. it is part of my charm and I honestly didn't mean it to be rude. I guess I should refrain from using that until you get to know me.

Forgivness comes.. NOT because we call ourselves Christians but because we call upon the Name of the Lord and his blood washed ALL sin away. Living for HIM is what we WANT to do but it is surely not a requirement for salvation and forgivness. I agree with TJ3.

samdarwen .
Sam you are right. To be a Christian means to work at being one, accepting Christ as your savior and doing as he taught by word and deed.
One thing we must keep in mind is that we are forgiven as we forgive others.
If we do not forgive we will not be forgiven and if we forgive others with conditions then we will be forgiven with conditions.
So Jesus said.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Christians will be judged - according to scripture we will be judged to determine what crowns we receive as reards for our works. Christians have been forgiven their sins,

Then, if Christians have been forgiven of our sins, why do we ask God to forgive our sins in the Lord's prayer?
Luke 11:4
And forgive us our sins;


therefore our works are not a determining factor as to whether we are saved.

They seem to be a determining factor as to whether we will receive eternal life:
Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


Scripture is very clear that good works follow salvation, not the other way around.

It seems that Scripture is telling us to work or God will not save us.
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Those who have not received Christ as Saviour are under the law, and are judged by their works for salvation.

Wow! A breakthrough!


Since Romans 3:23 is clear that all have sinned, then those who are not saved are facing an eternity in hell.

I don't see where Romans 3:23 condemns all to hell. It simply says all have sinned. There is such a thing as repentance, isn't there?


Read Galatians 3.

I have. I see nothing there which says that we will be saved if we do not obey Christ as you insinuate.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I am making no broader theological claim. I am simply pointing out what the verse says, and what it doesn't. It doesn't say anything one way or another about works.

It neither says that in local context or in the wider context. Where you get your private interpretation from is beyond me.



While I agree that the context is salvation, notice that the word "salvation" does not occur even once in this passage.

You are playing word games. Being saved means that one has received salvation.

Then, if Christians have been forgiven of our sins, why do we ask God to forgive our sins in the Lord's prayer?
Luke 11:4
And forgive us our sins;

For some, they need to asked because perhaps they have never received Jesus as Saviour. For others it is acknowledging that it is a two way street.

Luke 11:4
4 And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one."
NKJV

Sin is an on-going problem while we are here on earth, and while the sin of those of us who are saved has been paid for, from our perspective, we see it on a time-line, where we sin and are forgiven.

But by the same token, why would you think that we ask God not to lead us into temptation when God would never do that?


It seems that Scripture is telling us to work or God will not save us.
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

What? Because Jesus is the author of all who are saved, we have to work? That is completely contradictory. If He is the author, He did it, not us. The author of the book writes the book, not the readers.


I don't see where Romans 3:23 condemns all to hell. It simply says all have sinned. There is such a thing as repentance, isn't there?

Read more carefully. Did I say that everyone was condemned to hell? No.

Read carefully, who did I say was condemned to hell?

It neither says that in local context or in the wider context. Where you get your private interpretation from is beyond me.

The verse from 1Jn. That you quoted says nothing about works. I stand by that.


You are playing word games. Being saved means that one has received salvation.

The passage from Ephesians is talking about the role of grae in salvation. The "it" that we have been discussing refers to grace. I stand by that.

We've gone over these passages before, and I said the same thing then that I'm saying now. You are reading a lot into the text and distorting them in the process. I've explained each. I leave it to others to make up their own minds.

The verse from 1Jn. That you quoted says nothing about works. I stand by that.

Deny the context - your choice.


The passage from Ephesians is talking about the role of grae in salvation. The "it" that we have been discussing refers to grace. I stand by that.

And you will fight to death to avoid the context - I know, we've been down this road before.

Deny the context - your choice.



And you will fight to death to avoid the context - I know, we've been down this road before.

What context is going to change the meaning of "it"? You're the one who cited the passages. Now that you can't back up your reading of them you're making vague allusions to context. People hide behind talk of context all the time when they have nothing concrete to bring forward in defense of indefensible claims. You misread the passages. That's all there is to it.

What context is going to change the meaning of "it"? You're the one who cited the passages. Now that you can't back up your reading of them you're making vague allusions to context.

Here we go again. I already quoted the context, Akoue, take the time to read what I posted. Or at least read that section of scripture.


People hide behind talk of context all the time when they have nothing concrete to bring forward in defense of indefensible claims. You misread the passages. That's all there is to it.

I am not surprised that people who want to read their own theological system into a passage wish to reject the context, and try to ridicule those who take the time to read what it says in context.

For some, they need to asked because perhaps they have never received Jesus as Saviour. For others it is acknowledging that it is a two way street.

Luke 11:4
4 And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one."
NKJV

Sin is an on-going problem while we are here on earth, and while the sin of those of us who are saved has been paid for, from our perspective, we see it on a time-line, where we sin and are forgiven.

You must be pulling that from some other source. I don't see anything about seeing it on a time-line in Scripture.


But by the same token, why would you think that we ask God not to lead us into temptation when God would never do that?

You added those lines. I only focused on "forgive us our sins".


What? Because Jesus is the author of all who are saved, we have to work? That is completely contradictory. If He is the author, He did it, not us. The author of the book writes the book, not the readers.

But in order to find out what the author said, the reader must read the book.


Read more carefully. Did I say that everyone was condemned to hell? No.

Then what does this mean?

Since Romans 3:23 is clear that all have sinned, then those who are not saved are facing an eternity in hell.


Read carefully, who did I say was condemned to hell?

Why did you say they were condemned to hell?

Akoue,
I agree wholeheartedly.
Fred

You must be pulling that from some other source. I don't see anything about seeing it on a time-line in Scripture.

I got it from something called the Bible.


You added those lines. I only focused on "forgive us our sins".

They have been in scripture all along. In my Bible anyway. Are they not in yours?


But in order to find out what the author said, the reader must read the book.



Then what does this mean?

It means:

Since Romans 3:23 is clear that all have sinned, then those who are not saved are facing an eternity in hell.


Why did you say they were condemned to hell?

Well, what do you think that it means to not be saved? What do you think that those who are saved, are saved from?

And my friend.. Have you been thinking about what it means to receive the CHrist as your Saviour? In my understanding that to receive Him, you will need to receive his word and do by it.
Forgiveness is for the ones that made mistakes, but because they are man kind, they made a mistake, and because they received Jesus Christ, and by doing the work by the way is the receiving part, those are the ones that their sin is forgiven, and I'm just telling you what I understand.. And I hope I'm wrong, for the sake of anyone believe like yourself.
Read the Bible.. Maybe I would start with John if I want to know more.

Here we go again. I already quoted the context, Akoue, take the time to read what I posted. Or at least read that section of scripture.

I did. Here's what I wrote (post #32, a mere page ago):


While I agree that the context is salvation, notice that the word "salvation" does not occur even once in this passage. "It" in the clause under discussion clearly refers to "grace": Grace is not a product of works but is a gift of God. "By grace you have been saved", "His grace and kindness", "by grace you have been saved", "it <grace> is the gift of God, not of works".

Grace is God's unmerited favor. It cannot be won by doing good works. Works alone are not salvific. The word "it" clearly does not refer to salvation; that wouldn't even make grammatical sense; the word "salvation" is not used in this passage, even though it is talking about salvation. It is talking about the role of grace in salvation, and it is telling us that grace is a wholly gratuitous gift of God.

But, as you know, grace and salvation aren't the same thing. Salvation requires faith and works, together, not one without the other. Faith and works are each necessary conditions for salvation, but neither of them (in the absence of the other) is a sufficient condition for salvation.


I am not surprised that people who want to read their own theological system into a passage wish to reject the context, and try to ridicule those who take the time to read what it says in context.

You're the one who cited those passages, and you're the one who's distorted their meaning. I'm just pointing you back to the text. If there is some context that can change the meaning of "it", by all means, share it with us. If not, it seems you are the one reading his own theological system into the passage. I'm a great believer in the importance of context. I've brought it up many times myself. But vague allusions to context aren't going to cut it. As I say, I can see no contextual factors which will turn the verse from 1Jn. Into a claim about works or the passage from Ephesians into a denial that works figure in salvation. What you've said isn't Scriptural just because you quote Scripture. You have to understand Scripture and quote relevant passages. The ones you've appealed to so far don't go anywhere near making the claims you impute to them.

Well, if we are going to just c/p postings, here is what I said just a short ways back!

--------------------------------------------


The verse you quoted says:

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

It says that if we confess our sins we are forgiven. It doesn't say "when we are saved", it says "if we confess". Notice that it doesn't say "all sin", it says "our sins". Our sins are forgiven. Then it says "and", so in addition to our sins being forgiven something else happens: we are cleansed of "all unrighteousness".

Are you saying that you believe that an unsaved person can be cleansed of all unrighteousness? Could you please show us from scripture where that is taught?


It still doesn't say anything about works. And I think it's really odd that you would say that our works, even the righteous ones, "are removed". The verse doesn't say that at all. Again, no mention of works at all.

Where there is no righteousness, there is no sin by which we can be judged. It appears that you have a different definition of salvation than we find in scripture. Perhaps you will share you definition of what salvation means with us.

Then you claim that Ephesians does not say that works are not part of salvation. An interesting theory especially since this passage specifically and explicity does mention that salvation has nothing to do with works.


This also doesn't show that works are no part of salvation.


There is a semicolon, and the word after the semicolon is "it".

Really, and what exactly do you think that this "it" refers to immediately following a phrase speaking about salvation?



To what does "it" refer? "It" doesn't refer to salvation, because the noun "salvation" doesn't occur. The verb "have been saved" occurs, but "it" has to refer to a noun. So that means it refers either to "grace" or "faith". Take your pick: either "it" refers back to "grace" (grace is a gift of God) or it refers back to "faith" (faith is a gift of God). I'm fine with either one.

This argument ignores the entire context, which has one topic - salvation:

Eph 2:1-10
2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Yet you would have me believe that in the last half of one verse, the topic changed.

Nice try, but I think that even if you showed this to a child, the reference is so clear that it would not be missed.

Akoue.
I agree very much with this you said to Tj3, "You have to understand Scripture and quote relevant passages. The ones you've appealed to so far don't go anywhere near making the claims you impute to them."
Tj3 likes to push his own personal theology and has done so many times.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I think God is showing you some things to draw you to him.
DO you think God would reveal himself to you if he was only going to cut you off? The Bible says to search diligently and he will honor it,
I have messed up big time in the past 20 years since I have come to Christ but the more I mess up the more I realize how merciful and forgiving God is and the closer he brings me to him.
Do not give up. The Bible says the ones who fight the good fight (keep the faith) will be saved. So realize God is doing a work in you and everything you go through is a lesson to weed out the old you and nurture the spiritual person God wants you to be.

Akoue.
I agree very much with this you said to Tj3, "You have to understand Scripture and quote relevant passages.

Exactly what I was asking Akoue to look at when he started his rant against reading the context.

N0help4u,
You said, "So realize God is doing a work in you and everything you go through is a lesson to weed out the old you and nurture the spiritual person God wants you to be."
Yup. I surely do agree with that.
Well said.
Fred

Tj3,
I still agree with Akoue on this an not you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

N0help4u,
I again agree with you.
Fred

Tj3,
I still agree with Akoue on this an not you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That is fine. I will stick with the context whether you agree or not.

Exactly what I was asking Akoue to look at when he started his rant against reading the context.

Well, Akoue has commented on all the context you have chosen to share. Notice that v.8 opens with the word "For". This suggests a conclusion drawn from what preceded. And that conclusion is, in vv.8 and 9, that salvation requires grace and that grace is an unmerited gift of God. It is not a reward or payment given in return for work done ("it is not a gift of works") but is given gratuitously by God. While it's true that the context is a discussion of salvation, it's also true that the context includes a discussion of the role of grace in salvation. Since grammatically the word "it" in v.8 cannot stand in for a verb ("have been saved"), it is quite evident that it refers back to the word "grace". This isn't some tricky theological maneuver; this is just grammar. But it also accords with the broader passage as you've quoted it (and as I have just explained--i.e. the role of grace in salvation, grace is an unmerited gift of God and not our just desserts for work done).

I am now thoroughly bored from repeating myself, so this will be my last post to the present thread. That means that you, Tom, get to have the last word. I know that's important to you.

Well, Akoue has commented on all the context you have chosen to share.

And then you denied it and wanted nothing to do the context.


Notice that v.8 opens with the word "For".

By the time you got to that word, you have missed what the subject is that Paul is speaking about.

Right from the start, Paul makes his subject clear:

Eph 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself,
NKJV

And goes on:

Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

Bringing us to chapter 2 (I trust you know chapter divisions were not in the original letter).Note that the theme of salvation is still going:

Eph 2:1-8
2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

But suddenly you want us to think that the subject changed at this word "For", and that we should ignore the full context of the sentence:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

So we have the context at the start, but in case there are those who miss that, Paul often summarizes what he is speaking about with a conclusion, and the conclusion is found after the word "therefore":

Eph 2:11-13
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
NKJV





This suggests a conclusion drawn from what preceded. And that conclusion is, in vv.8 and 9, that salvation requires grace and that grace is an unmerited gift of God. It is not a reward or payment given in return for work done ("it is not a gift of works") but is given gratuitously by God. While it's true that the context is a discussion of salvation, it's also true that the context includes a discussion of the role of grace in salvation. Since grammatically the word "it" in v.8 cannot stand in for a verb ("have been saved"), it is quite evident that it refers back to the word "grace". This isn't some tricky theological maneuver; this is just grammar. But it also accords with the broader passage as you've quoted it (and as I have just explained--i.e. the role of grace in salvation, grace is an unmerited gift of God and not our just desserts for work done).

I am now thoroughly bored from repeating myself, so this will be my last post to the present thread. That means that you, Tom, get to have the last word. I know that's important to you.[/QUOTE]

Okay, this is just too delicious to pass up. So you honestly mean to claim that the "it" in Eph.2.8 refers all the way back to the word "salvation" in Eph.1.13? I have already stated REPEATEDLY that the context is salvation. The problem for your reading is that in the verses under consideration, Paul is talking about the role of GRACE in salvation. You can't just skim along the surface and grab on to what tickles your fancy. The word "it" isn't referring to the "context". It's a pronoun, and it is clearly standing in for "grace". Man, I've seen you pull some stunts before, but this one is rich. I mean, if your grammatical rules are in place, why not say that "it" refers to "redemption" or "glory"? They are nouns too, and they show up. Underlines and boldface don't redirect the reference of pronouns. Not in any language.



And then you denied it and wanted nothing to do the context.



By the time you got to that word, you have missed what the subject is that Paul is speaking about.

Right from the start, Paul makes his subject clear:

Eph 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself,
NKJV

And goes on:

Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

Bringing us to chapter 2 (I trust you know chapter divisions were not in the original letter).Note that the theme of salvation is still going:

Eph 2:1-8
2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

But suddenly you want us to think that the subject changed at this word "For", and that we should ignore the full context of the sentence:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

So we have the context at the start, but in case there are those who miss that, Paul often summarizes what he is speaking about with a conclusion, and the conclusion is found after the word "therefore":

Eph 2:11-13
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
NKJV





This suggests a conclusion drawn from what preceded. And that conclusion is, in vv.8 and 9, that salvation requires grace and that grace is an unmerited gift of God. It is not a reward or payment given in return for work done ("it is not a gift of works") but is given gratuitously by God. While it's true that the context is a discussion of salvation, it's also true that the context includes a discussion of the role of grace in salvation. Since grammatically the word "it" in v.8 cannot stand in for a verb ("have been saved"), it is quite evident that it refers back to the word "grace". This isn't some tricky theological maneuver; this is just grammar. But it also accords with the broader passage as you've quoted it (and as I have just explained--i.e., the role of grace in salvation, grace is an unmerited gift of God and not our just desserts for work done).

I am now thoroughly bored from repeating myself, so this will be my last post to the present thread. That means that you, Tom, get to have the last word. I know that's important to you.[/QUOTE]

Okay, this is just too delicious to pass up. So you honestly mean to claim that the "it" in Eph.2.8 refers all the way back to the word "salvation" in Eph.1.13?!

Akoue - do you ever actually read my posts or just scan them to see what you can take out of context to attack. No, I did not say that all.

You might want to go back and read what I said carefully.

Akoue - do you ever actually read my posts or just scan them to see what you can take out of context to attack. No, I did not say that all.

You might want to go back and read what I said carefully.

So then you agree that "it" refers to grace and the claim made by Eph.2.8-9 isn't that works don't figure in salvation but that grace is a gift of God and not a gift of works.

I'm glad we can lay this to rest, since you had been claiming that it was referring to salvation and that the verses were saying that works do not figure in salvation. Am I right that you have abandoned that indefensible reading of the text?

So then you agree that "it" refers to grace

I see that you still have not read what I posted, or presumably you would not be mis-representing what I said (assuming that you are a man of integrity).

Tj3,
Now for sure I must agree with Akoue.
He is reading what the passages say not what you attempt to make them say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
Now for sure I must agree with Akoue.
He is reading what the passages say not what you attempt to make them say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That is fine Fred, I'll stick to the context of the passage. Everyone is welcome to believe what they wish.

Tj3,
Yes, Thanks for that.
Fred

Paul makes his subject clear without any doubt and I agree Tj3 that the following verse clearly tell us we are accepted as His beloved adoption of children by Christ. And not by our own doing but by the blessing of Our Father, who blessed us with Christ Jesus.

Eph 1:3 Blesses be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

It also says we obtained this inheritance, and it is to be with praise and glory to God. Because it was trusted in Christ by His Father, and that we must also trust in Christ. (Note: that we must trust in Christ because of all that is written in truth of the gospel about our salvation) Only after we acknowledge our trust in Christ, believing in Him, do we become sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Eph 1:11-14 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Note: that Paul says cease not the prayer of thanks ( Eph 1:16-20) Which in doing we receive wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ. And the hope of His calling, all done in the hands of Christ working, and power as the right hand of God. Not only in this world but in the one to come..

So by trusting in all that is written in Christ we have faith... Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Because!!! We are His workmanship... created in Christ with good works in which we should walk.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


John 1:16-17 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

tell me what u think am i done for ? am i going to hell with no way out..

It is not for us to judge anyone... And I trust in God above all .

God knows what is in your heart, and God goes to the very depth of your thoughts which your heart has accepted. God also know what He has revealed to you, and what He choosen not to permitted because of your choices... God is reality... He stands at the door waiting for those who love Him, and those who will follow Him.

~ Hear His voice, and be obedent to His will..

Jeremiah 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

sndbay,
Yes you are right...
But...
We must be forgiven to get into heaven.
That means that whenever we sin we must be sorry for our sins, confess our sinfulness and ask for forgiveness. Not just one time, but every time.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
Yes you are right.....
But....
We must be forgiven to get into heaven.
That means that whenever we sin we must be sorry for our sins, confess our sinfulness and ask for forgiveness. Not just one time, but every time.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Read 1 John 1:9. What does "all unrighteousness" mean?

Tj3,
Why do you ask me?
Have you lost your dictionary.
I think you will trust that me than what I say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
Why do you ask me?
Have you lost your dictionary.
I think you will trust that me than what I say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

If you don't want to answer, I understand.

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Tom,
You asked a silly question.
I gave yiu a silly answer.
What ekse did you expect?
Of course I have read that verse many times and you should have been able to figure that out by yourself.
Or are you again trying to play games with me.
If so don't do it.
Fred.

I don't get it? why do you want to argue over words.

Well, ClassyT, if the words are in the Bible, then it actually matters whether we understand them correctly or not. I'm sure you'd agree that it is important to understand the Bible correctly. And doing that requires understanding the words that are used, and the ways in which those words are used. This means, for example, understanding the way words are put together in sentences. If someone misunderstands or distorts the way words are put together (by, for instance, misunderstanding or distorting the grammar of the sentences in which they are put together), then that person has misunderstood or distorted the meaning of the Bible. I should think that anyone who believes the Bible to be the word of God would hold that we ought to have the very highest standards when reading that word. After all, to misunderstand the meaning of a passage in a novel has no real stakes unless one is a student writing a paper on that passage for a grade. But to misunderstand the meaning of a passage in the Bible has stakes for one's soul.

If one regularly misunderstands the meanings of words and sentences and entire passages of the Bible, I think it's fair to say that that person doesn't understand the Bible well at all.

I got it from something called the Bible.

I don't see anything about seeing it on a time-line in your Bible. Show me.


They have been in scripture all along. In my Bible anyway. Are they not in yours?

Show me from your Bible.


But in order to find out what the author said, the reader must read the book.

Exactly. I thought I said that.


It means:

Since Romans 3:23 is clear that all have sinned, then those who are not saved are facing an eternity in hell.

So you are saying that all who have sinned will go to hell. But you just denied that you said that?


Well, what do you think that it means to not be saved?

It means "sinner".

Read your statement. You are equating sinners with "those who are not saved". But Jesus did not come for the righteous (the saved) but sinners (those who are not saved).

Therefore, Jesus came to save those who are not saved.


What do you think that those who are saved, are saved from?

Must one remain "unsaved"? Must one remain a "sinner"?

Well, ClassyT, if the words are in the Bible, then it actually matters whether we understand them correctly or not. I'm sure you'd agree that it is important to understand the Bible correctly. And doing that requires understanding the words that are used, and the ways in which those words are used. This means, for example, understanding the way words are put together in sentences. If someone misunderstands or distorts the way words are put together (by, for instance, misunderstanding or distorting the grammar of the sentences in which they are put together), then that person has misunderstood or distorted the meaning of the Bible. I should think that anyone who believes the Bible to be the word of God would hold that we ought to have the very highest standards when reading that word. After all, to misunderstand the meaning of a passage in a novel has no real stakes unless one is a student writing a paper on that passage for a grade. But to misunderstand the meaning of a passage in the Bible has stakes for one's soul.

If one regularly misunderstands the meanings of words and sentences and entire passages of the Bible, I think it's fair to say that that person doesn't understand the Bible well at all.

Exactly! The Bible itself says that many people will distort the Bible to their own destruction.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

You all most be confusing the OP to the point that he might feel like giving up
all together. We are all sinners so the distinction IS sinners that purposely sin and do not care or believers that fall short by falling into sin and pray for forgiveness and strength to overcome our sins.

Exactly! The Bible itself says that many people will distort the Bible to their own destruction.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

We see that often even on this board.

You all most be confusing the OP to the point that he might feel like giving up
all together. We are all sinners so the distinction IS sinners that purposely sin and do not care or believers that fall short by falling into sin and pray for forgiveness and strength to overcome our sins.

Well said.

Closed