The anguish of those suffering a terminal illness and debilitating pain have led some to ask for help in ending their lives and the pain. Most states frown on helping bring peace to the suffering and the most famous Dr Kevorkian finally went to jail for his part in ending the pain/suffering of those that contacted him. Should we not take into account that we cannot do for these people and help them die if they ask?

I don't think suicide is a crime. Taking someone else's life is a crime because it might not be their wish, but taking your own, and it being your own wish, I don't consider a crime. I guess that means helping someone else, is a crime, unless they actually want it. Which they do if they want to commit suisice.

No. No I don't consider it a crime. As long as they give you something to prove you didn't murder them before!

Yes it is a crime.
If you don't have the balls to do it yourself.
To bad so sad.
Where there is a will there is away.

Not always Josh.

I remember going through cancer. I told my hubby that if I could not do for myself please do for me.

It is hard to say until you have actually been there, and I was close.

So, to me, no it would not have been a crime. The agony was intense and I do not wish it on anyone.

What if I am a vegetable?

I have stated in my will before hand I do not wish to live like that, I am kind of in tough waters then eh?

If I was a vegetable, I couldn't kill myself, despite the fact that I want to.

Therefore, assisted suicide should be allowed, but it must be evaluated on a case by case basis.

Perhaps even with a government board to review each file.

What if I am a vegetable?

I have stated in my will before hand I do not wish to live like that, I am kind of in tough waters then eh?

If I was a vegetable, I couldn't kill myself, despite the fact that I want to.

Therefore, assisted suicide should be allowed, but it must be evaluated on a case by case basis.

Perhaps even with a government board to review each file.


Those are great statements. At the time I was gong thruogh cancer I did not have a will. I do now. But at that time, I was 32, I thought I was too young to need one. I look back now and realize that we really do tend to be innocent in a lot of aspects during our youth.

I agree that it should be allowed on a case-by-case basis.

I also understand that this can be hard on a hopsital or nursing home, but being on both sides (a med/mal researcher and now a nursing student) it is something that most certainly should be considered.

Demonspeeding_2005

Yes it is a crime.
If you don't have the balls to do it yourself.
To bad so sad.
Where there is a will there is away


I knew someone who committed suicide,so as you say,"they did have the balls to do it themselves".

If I had a terminal illness,and was eventually to suffer agonising pain,after massive doses of morephene,I would,before my mind became confused,let it be known that I wanted to die.The downside to this,is that in the UK,only "brain-death" is considered good enough to switch-off a life-support machine,and only then after discussion with my next of kin.So even if my heart stopped beating after an over dose of drugs,I could in theory,be placed on a "machine" against my wishes.
Would I personally help someone,or other family member "die".It is difficult to answer,until the situation arises.
Is it a crime to help someone die? Only if you shoot them,knife them,or blow them up.To administer an over-dose of drugs must be awful.

I don't have the usual stigma on suicde that others do. Part of my past included two attempts (obviously failed, lol and I am not inclined now, okay?) but these were genuine attempts and so I like to think I know a little of what its like.

In the US, a "living will" is the legal document that prevents prolonged life when you don't wish it. NO machines, feeding tubes or vegetable states for us thanks! We both have ones that were drawn up right after the Terry Schiavo case went national news, having been lax on it until then. This is different from a will.

As for checking out, I have thought about if I live past the point of quality in my life, that not eating or drinking will be the option - it would only take about two weeks max from what I can find out on it. That seems simple and do-able both... unless I am missing something here? I don't think burdening someone else with my demise is wise since the emotional culpability issues, apart from the illegality of it, are just too hefty.

I saw my mom die a horrible death from progressive systemic sclerosis (crudely put, you turn to cement from the inside out basically). She was on the verge of asking me to help when she slipped into a coma in her sleep. I have to say I was IMMENSELY relieved. She died ten days later in the hospital. While I don't think its wrong to end your life, I think others doing it for you needs to be considered very very very carefully. Maybe it all changes when you are right there in the moment but why ask another if you can do it yourself? Why wait until you are that helpless?

I think suicide in general needs to be reconsidered differently, not just for hospice patients, but then I think the whole mental health topic does too!

Good thread Talaniman.

Val, you are so right in your answer.

One of the things we have not considered would be the emotional well-being of the person we ask to do it. How will they be emotionally after they have "sent us on our way"? Would they be able to live a normal life?

Now, just pulling the plug is a different story. I know of many people who have had to pull the plug. In those instances they were relieved to see that their loved one was no longer suffering (although in most instances it is the healthy person that is actually doing the suffering.)

I saw my grandfather deteriorate to the point where his dignity and quality of life were gone. I would not wish that on anyone.

How can it be a crime to relieve a person of such suffering?

I don't think it's a crime, either. The only way it would be a crime to me is if the dying person didn't have a choice in the matter... like, if they were automatically "eliminated" for not being healthy, as happened in Nazi Germany. But if they wanted to die, they should be allowed the choice to die with dignity.

Assisted suicide happens all the time. You just don't hear about it because people don't want to get in trouble, go to jail, etc. I've talked to many people who've helped family members... I think it will continue regardless of being legal or not.

Scott hit the nail on the head with his post. We have all been discussing health issues, but until he posted we never discussed dignity.

Many people are proud people and do not want anyone to see them in adult diapers and the like. Dignity should play a major factor in our decisions.

Thank you for sharing Scott. I am sure that was particularly hard time in your life.

I just had to spread some more around.

Thank you for sharing Scott. I am sure that was particularly hard time in your life.

I was in my teens at the time, but it impressed me greatly and made me decide I never want to go through that. I think when my father died, it may have been best way that could happen. He suffered a stroke and never regained consciousness and died 3 days later. That was long enough for us to get used to the idea but not too long for either him or us to suffer.

Janine
I know you survived cancer. Did you learn anything from it. If you would have ended it you wouldn't be here today.

Scott
Did you learn anything from watching your grandfather die. Maybe he had one last gift to give. You now know that you don't want to go like that.

I have seen my fair share of death. Suicides, Car wrecks, overdoses and stuff like that.

For the most part suicides are harder on the people left behind.

If you can't help some one die with dignity what alternatives are there?

Janine
I know you survived cancer. Did you learn anything from it. If you would have ended it you wouldn't be here today.

Scott
Did you learn anything from watching your grandfather die. Maybe he had one last gift to give. You now know that you don't want to go like that.

I have seen my fair share of death. Suicides, Car wrecks, overdoses and stuff like that.

For the most part suicides are harder on the people left behind.

First, your question to Janine may not be applicable. You have no idea at what level or what conditions she had to deal with.

Second, Yes I did learn a lesson from my grandfather's death. The lesson was that he should not have had to endure what he did. Does that make the manner of his death valuable to me? NO! I would much rather have learned that lesson without him having to go through what he did. I would rather NOT have learned the lesson at all, then have him go through what he did.

My biological mother died of breast cancer that had metasized to the liver and other organs. It was a slow, painful, horrible death, with no hope of cure or remission. I watched her die in palliative care, and all I learned was that cancer is an awful disease and that we need more research funding for a cure. And I decided that if I'm ever in that position myself that I want to die quickly.

Sorry this is long, but it is from someone who has been on the brink of assisted suicide.

Scott, I have to thank you for stepping in. Here is the story in a nutshell. I enjoy sharing my story in hopes that I save other lives.

I had, and survived stage three breast cancer, localized in the milk ducts. It had not yet metastisized, I was a lucky one. In the hospital that I had my bilateral mastectomy in it was customary for breast cancer survivors to visit patients who had mastectomies and bring angel pins (guardian angels). Sue was the lady who visited me.

She was considered cured as she had been “out” five years. This means that she had a clean bill of health five years after mastectomy and chemo.

After my final chemo treatment which was 6 months later, I was notified that Sue's cancer had returned. Breast cancer usually returns in only 5 different organs, 2 of which are the brain and bone. Well, Sue's cancer had reached both. Bear with me here as I tend to get a little teary eyed remembering this part, but it is all cathartic.

It was during my final chemo treatment, I had very little hair, (people who did not know of my cancer were quick to make fun of me, yes, adults out in the open in front of what was then my 4 year old daughter). So, back to the story. At my final chemo treatment the doctor's office gave me a boquet of flowers to celebrate. As I was walking out I saw Sue. She was gaunt, tired and bruised all over. She could not walk on her own, she had open sores, and you could tell that she had given up hope. If anyone has ever seen it, you know when someone knows it is time to go.

It was at that point that I discussed with my husband that if I ever got that far I did not want to linger a long and painful death as Sue was doing. Raechell was only 4 for heavens sake. I did not want her to watch this. I wanted my family to be able to say goodbye gracefully. This is hard folks, so bear with me, I am laying it all out for you so you know where I come from. I give speeches in October, Breast Cancer Awareness Month, but that is to people I DON'T know, and I feel I know you all. BTW Sue did die a very slow and painful death. I mourn her loss every November.

Okay, so I did not want my beautiful young child to remember a life full of pain and torture. I wanted her to remember a young healthy loving mother. Not a shell ravaged by the effects of a deadly disease.

I asked my husband to help me die with dignity if ever I were to succumb to such a horror. He agreed that if that time were ever to come that he would want me to pass gracefully, but there was no easy answer, as it would affect him and Raechell for the rest of their lives.

Well, I am now here to tell you that the time never came. I am now 11 years free of cancer and am trying to help others in the same way that my nurses helped me.

Is assisted suicide a crime? Take it from someone who as been close to the brink. No, it is not murder, it is helping others pass over with their dignity intact.

P.S. Please I do not want anyone to feel sorry for me, I want to celebrate every day that I have on this earth. And I cherish every person I meet, whether in person or online.

If I help just one person, then my job is done!

I'm with Chava in that I think it occurs "quietly" behind closed doors as it should for now. I also see pretty compelling evidence that the collective medical community, the insurance industry and the vast legal system, at least in this country, are a loooooooooong way from understanding something as intensely personal and as contrary to many religions as this is... just look at the storm Terry's situation made. Although I sympathsized with him, I am also mindful that it was very hard for a good many people to see the enormous kindness he was extending to her. There are still a great many people who view suicide of any kind as a sin. And having been in the system for attempted suicide, I can tell you much enlightenment is needed there too. So those who sound off on this topic might want to consider that words written here endure and are able to be used as evidence down the road... maybe its better to be less direct about it, for now?

Just a concerned thought, a gentle caution for choosing words carefully.

I now you must think me barbaic or something.

But god said it is a sin to commit suicide.
That is also what I believe.

I have been through a lot of stuff in my life.
Cancers heart attacks suicides.

My feelings about it are god will not give you anything you can't handle.

If you commit suicide. You might be missing out on something god had intended for you.

No I don't think you barbaric, but I do think you lack somewhat in compassion.

So your position is that God would put you through the pain and suffering of a terminal illness because he has some grand plan for you? Therefore, it would be an affront to him to take your own life.

I'm not sure if you see the paradox here. If you believe in a god that controls things to the extent that he has intentions for you, then that same god would control things enough to prevent you from committing suicide in the first place.

I think the people interested in a religious debate about God's intentions in general (which can include specifically about suicide) need to think long and clear about highjacking a perfectly good thread here about assisted suicide being a CRIME, not a sin. I introduced it in passing as a sin as it related to it remaining a crime, and frankly I had second thoughts about even that. :eek:

I hear that people here get tired of religious debate and I can see why when this topic interlopes as it does. Isn't it just as easy to begin a new thread as it is to pull an existing one off topic? Let me gently remind that there is already a thread about things going off topic that is still viable and plenty of room in the religion section for a new thread. So do you want to talk about it being a crime or not..

There!. huff puff puff LOL :p

If you can't help some one die with dignity what alternatives are there?

If you have a living will that prohibits feeding you without your consent and you are prepared to stop eating when the time comes, why would someone else need to be that involved? Last time I checked you can't be arrested for refusing to eat... am I still missing something here?

This is such a tough issue. Yes, suicide is painful for the loved ones left behind. Watching a loved one die a slow painful death is also painful for the loved ones watching each day. I believe committing suicide because one can no longer handle the physical pain is different than suicide because of mental suffering. There is often no help for the physical pain in terminal illnesses, and death is near. It should be your own decision whether you want to continue to suffer. I have seen hospice patients in agony because of the burden they put on their families, both financially and mentally just for a few more days or weeks of breathing... not living. We all want to leave this world behind with dignity and knowing our loved ones remember us that way.

When I say suicide is different for the physical pain versus the mental pain, I no way mean to understate the feeling of one that is in anguish mentally. The pain of feeling hopeless and there is no reason to live is just as painful as if you have cancer eating you from the inside out. There is help for that pain.

As in all walks of life, not every answer is for everyone. Some feel God would not want them to keep suffering. Others feel God will punish them for not wanting to continue to suffer. I want to think my loving God would understand the pain to be too great to endure.

Just to clarify-my main purpose of asking this question was to put light on archaic laws and behavior that lacks compassion and understanding. Pain and suffering is a part of being human but to know that you are terminally ill (going to die soon) and still have to endure the pain of your illness seems so uncaring to me. An to have some one say There's nothing you can do reeks of an attitude that isolates and strips the dignity of a once vibrant productive human being. Maybe we should have a will that spells out how we are to be treated when ill, but to my knowledge if you are not hooked to a machine and pain and agony are your constant companion should you have to wait for death or can you just ask someone to relieve you of your pain. Is it suicide knowing you are going to die or is it compassion to relieve the suffering of another?

Okay, to clarify a few things:

There is a Living Will, or as hospitals like to call it an Advanced Directive (AD). When you go into the hopsital for whatever reason they are supposed to ask if you have an AD. If so, this is placed in the very front of your chart so that the docs and nurses know that you do not want to be kept alive using artificial means.

There is also a Do Not Recussitate Order (DNR) that specifically states that no heroic measures are to be taken in the even of a catastrophic illness (heart attack, kidney failure, etc).

If you have these in the front of your chart the docs and nurses are supposed to let you die with dignity. Just let you go. In the case of Terry Schiavo, she did not have any of these. Therefore, most people think “assisted suicide.”

If these are in the front of your chart, the docs and nurses only have to make sure you are comfortable until your time comes. This would not be assisted suicide, this would be considered dying with dignity.

I think the people interested in a religious debate about God's intentions in general (which can include specifically about suicide) need to think long and clear about highjacking a perfectly good thread here about assisted suicide being a CRIME, not a sin.

You make a good point. Demon's note was in a PM to me. But I feel its important that discussions be kept public. So I answered him here.

The thing is many people can't completely separate sin from crime. One must also remember that much of our laws are based on ethics handed down by religion. Thou shalt not kill, being the operative source here.

If you have a living will and go to the hospital that takes care of life support systems takes care of one area. All terminally ill patients do not go on life support and suffer a lot before dying. I do not think it should be a crime if that person wants to die without going through the "degrading, painful, suffering" part of the dying process. If a person has been diagnosed "terminally Ill" by more than one physican, and it is their choice, there should be a legal document they can sign and a doctor could handle the rest.

Just my opinion, I hate to see anyone suffer.

Our Creator is the source of life, and he has decreed that human life is precious, sacred. Gen. 9:5; Ps. 36:9 Suicide, which means the taking of one’s own life, or killing oneself, is condemned by the Bible. Such intentional act is self-murder. Ex. 20:13; 1 John 3:15 The few suicides mentioned in the Bible are of those who were unfaithful to God and who failed to consider that their lives really belonged to God.—1 Sam. 31:4; 2 Sam. 17:5-14, 23; 1 Ki. 16:18; Matt. 27:5.

One who intentionally takes his own life does so in utter disregard for the sacredness of life; he becomes blood guilty. When one commits suicide while in possession of one’s mental faculties, this shows one to be void of morality, lacking faith, having no fear of God. It is a cowardly act, where one refuses to face up to the problems and responsibilities of life. If the person claimed to be a true Christian, the act would violently break his relationship with God. Suicide may be the giving in to pressures from demons who encourage self-destruction. Matt. 17:14-18 This extremely self-centered act of murder manifests no love for one’s surviving family members, no love for one’s congregation and friends, and no love even for the surrounding community, as it brings shame and distress of mind upon all associates. Mark 12:31.

When someone commits suicide, family members and close friends suffer severe mental turmoil. Many blame themselves for the tragedy. They say such things as: ‘If only I had spent a little more time with him that day,’ ‘If only I had held my tongue that time,’ ‘If only I had done a little more to help him.’ The implication is, ‘If only I had done this or that, my loved one would still be here.’ Is it fair, though, to assume the blame for the suicide of another?

Having said this about those who commit suicide how much worse it is for another to assist in suicide. True, some countries such as the Netherlands became the first nation formally to legalize assisted suicide, reports Rotterdam’s NRC Handelsblad. The Dutch Senate approved the so-called mercy killing bill by a vote of 46 to 28. The legislation allows physicians to help end the lives of patients who are terminally ill or facing unremitting and unbearable “suffering.” Dutch lawmakers require that euthanasia patients meet the following strict guidelines: The patient’s request must be voluntary. The patient and doctor must agree that there is no reasonable alternative solution that is acceptable to the patient. At least one independent doctor must examine the patient. And the euthanasia must be performed in a medically acceptable manner.

Does that make it right and legal in God’s eyes? No it does not and neither should it be legal in the eyes of the courts.

These Laws of God are found in The Bible book of Deuteronomy.
IV. Criminal laws
A. Crimes against the state
1. Bribery, perverting justice 16:19, 20
2. Perjury 5:20
B. Crimes against morality
1. Adultery 5:18; 22:22-24
2. Unlawful marriage 22:30; 27:20, 22, 23
C. Crimes against the person
1. Murder and assault 5:17; 27:24
2. Rape and seduction 22:25-29
V. Humane laws
A. Kindness toward animals 25:4; 22:6, 7
B. Consideration for the 24:6, 10-18
Unfortunate
C. Building safety code 22:8
D. Treatment of dependent 15:12-15; 21:10-14;
Classes, including slaves 27:18, 19
And captives

Remember when Cain murdered his brother. God called it murder and when another assists someone else to commit suicide it is also murder. The taking of someone else’s life. Life does not belong to us to take.

Just my humble opinion.
Take care,
Hope12
:)

Just for my own information -A true Christian must watch a loved one waste away due to disease (And that is what we are talking about) which is terminal and painful?

I can't imagine what it would be like to go through what you went through, J_9, so what I am about to say is in no way disrespect to yours or other's situation.

I have a hard time knowing how far someone would have to be terminally ill to have the laws agree that it wasn't murder. What I mean is, with the technology we have now, it seems there may always be hope, not to the person itself but to the courts. There is a commercial that a guy had cancer and he says when no other doctor could do anything, I found the (whatever Cancer Center they are advertising) and they had a team of doctors working round the clock. My point is, where would the line be drawn where people wouldn't be ending other's lives prematurely and more frequently. I don't remember the fulll story but Dr. Kavorkian was ending a lot of lives. If a law had been passed that this was OK, how many others would have done this when maybe they didn't need to. Who determines that?

When my wife and I went to have papers drawn for the proxy and living will, they had told me that nothing would be done until 1 year from the time I would be put on life support. That is probably so that my wife wouldn't make a quick decision on saying to pull the plug when in fact I could still pull out of it (not that she would). I think the laws are placed there so that this doesn't happen. I am not saying I agree, I am just trying to give another view point.

My answer would have to be if there was some absolute way of knowing that that person's life would end and there was no way of curing it, then assisted suicide should not be considered murder. I think compassion and dignity should play a role in that. With the way people are in this world, I don't l know if that could be determined beyond a shadow of doubt. I hope this makes sense.

Life does not belong to us to take. Rest of post best not be repeated

Yet another example of why I don't believe in organized religion. Any institution that would require its adherents to suffer the pain and indignity of a terminal illness holds no attraction to me.

I didn't want this thread turned into relgious debate that is why I PM you scott.

I have seen uncles grand parents even parents die of cancer heart disease.
Brain tumors all sorts of things.
But still with every one of them they wanted to hang on long enough to see all there kids and grandkids one last time.
When that happened it was just a matter of hours before they died peaceful

I have seen uncles grand parents even parents die of cancer heart disease.
brain tumors all sorts of things.
But still with every one of them they wanted to hang on long enough to see all there kids and grandkids one last time.
When that happened it was just a matter of hours before they died peaceful

That's fine, that's THEIR choice! They are entitled to their choice. If their choice is to live with the condition to accomplish some goal, then that's fine. However, if their choice is not hang on and endure the pain and suffering then they should be entitled to that choice as well.

Those who think it's a sin and the equivalency to murder are entitled to their beliefs. And those who don't are equally entitled to theirs. And those who think it's a slippery slope, and attempt to sort of straddle the line are entitled to theirs as well. And anyone I accidentally left out are entitled to their opinion too. And I would like to thank my producer and director and my stylist and my, no wait, wrong thread! :eek: And since there are a whole lot of folks on either side of the line, I seriously doubt the legal system will be persuaded to change the laws anytime soon, at least not in my lifetime. ;)

(passes out "chill pills" to anyone interested, saying quietly, "nevermind that they look a whole lot like skittles!") :p

OK mom I will be nice.

As long as the laws it is illegal it is illegal.

Enough said

As long as the person assisting doesn't pull the trigger or push the button and that part is left up to the person committing suicide its not a crime..

And since there are a whole lot of folks on either side of the line, I seriously doubt the legal system will be persuaded to change the laws anytime soon, at least not in my lifetime. ;)

I disagree with that, unless you are planning on dying within 20 years or so.

With the baby boomers aging more and more, government will focus more on health care and I believe the assisted suicide will be debated and possible legislated. If not legislated, then at least openly debated unlike what we have had in the past…

Hope 12:

When one commits suicide while in possession of one’s mental faculties, this shows one to be void of morality, lacking faith, having no fear of God. It is a cowardly act, where one refuses to face up to the problems and responsibilities of life.


Total crap.I will not write anymore as I might get thrown out of AMHD. :mad:

When one commits suicide while in possession of one's mental faculties, this shows one to be void of morality, lacking faith, having no fear of God. It is a cowardly act, where one refuses to face up to the problems and responsibilities of life.
corrected as per Talaniman's comment:
Wow Hope... that's some strong sentiment you have there! And you are certainly entitled to your beliefs.

Folks who make those sorts of judgements about suicide have, whenever I asked them, always owned up to the fact that they have not known the kind of pain possible in the extreme end of the human range. If I am wrong, please correct me? If not, for your sake (and everyone's) I hope you never do. I mean that sincerely... no sarcasm in this at all. I would gently suggest that it really is a matter of... if you've not experienced it, then you don't know and maybe that thing about walking in someone's shoes might be in order here?

And just as often they are people who have been devastated by a suicide too or witnessed someone who has been and so I chalk a great deal of it off to the hurt talking... its easy to condemn the dead, eh? But what about the ones who survived their own suicide? Have they nothing to teach us?

:) Have another cup of coffee Val, Hope 12 made the statement, Nez replied to it:cool: :) Its ruff this early:D

Hope 12:

When one commits suicide while in possession of one’s mental faculties, this shows one to be void of morality, lacking faith, having no fear of God. It is a cowardly act, where one refuses to face up to the problems and responsibilities of life.


Total crap.I will not write anymore as I might get thrown out of AMHD. :mad:

We are talking here of someone in severe pain, on deaths door I believe. I have seen hospice patients with such severe bedsores they ooze. I have seen ones in so much pain when they are turned they cry out in pain. This is when they are so doped up you would not think they would feel. At that point I do not think one is in possession of one's mental faculties. Do you really think they are refusing to face up to the problems and responsibilities of life?

I hear where you would be coming from for some issues but not this one.

I am not saying I would personally chose a certain path, but my paths are not for everyone. I may have a different view when I am on the outside looking in rather than when I am "IN". Some choices in life should be ours to make.

Cassie-
I agree with you it should be my choice and if I choose to be put out of the misery you wrote of and ASK for relief of death shouldn't I get it? At that point I would rather take my chances before GOD, not man!

I truly believe, as has been said here, that unless you are in that position that it is truly hard to decide what you would do.

Some of you have seen others in that condition, but few have been close enough to even truly consider it.

I, for one, have been close to making that decision. Death was staring me down, well, I do win staring contests, so I am still here LOL.

If you read my other post here you probably have figured out what my decision would have been. I look back now and wonder if it would have been the right decision.

I have since written an Advanced Directive and a DNR order in case I am ever in this condition again. My AD gives direct orders to the docs on how I wish for them to handle my specific situation. I do not think I would ever again consider having a family member or friend do anything for me. It would be solely up to my health care providers.

Cassie-
I agree with you it should be my choice and if I choose to be put out of the misery you wrote of and ASK for relief of death shouldn't I get it? At that point I would rather take my chances before GOD, not man!!

Thank you, I have spread it around

What if I am a vegetable?

I have stated in my will before hand I do not wish to live like that, I am kind of in tough waters then eh?

If I was a vegetable, I couldn't kill myself, despite the fact that I want to.

Therefore, assisted suicide should be allowed, but it must be evaluated on a case by case basis.

Perhaps even with a government board to review each file.

Nothing else needs to be said here, totally agree captain dude, terminal illness sucks and to have the "balls" to fight something like cancer or multiple sclerosis etc and say "i`m gona take my life not this f**king disease" is in my eyes more courageous for wanting to make such a choice

1 in 3 people, just remember that...

1 in 3. very scary, very real. Cancer does not discriminate. I know.

Thank your government(s) for that one.
:mad:

Sorry for bringing such an old post up, but I was doing a paper on it, and it just sparked my interest in what everyone else thought about it.

Anyway I think assisted suicide is a crime in many country, because of the uncertainty that may result if it was legalize. First I have to say that I have never experience the death of someone that I hold close and dear to my heart, so I cannot comprehend what some of you went through. So I would like to apologize in advance if I offend anyone.

I think it is not legalized in many country, because:
1. There is always a possibility that the decision to die is not from the person suffering, but by their family or doctors.
2. It would devalued the life of people with disability and illnesses
3. The decision can never be rational, because patients are often not well informed of their conditions and future prospects (There could always be science break through)
4. The decision might not be due to their physical conditions alone, but by others and circumstances. E.g. Can't afford treatment
5. it would be difficult to distinguish murder from assisted suicide
6. Specific legislation defining appropriate and inappropriate conditions for euthanasia will not end ambiguous or inappropriate uses of euthanasia or assisted suicide
7. illness or disability is no more a rational reason for suicide than any other reasons
8. Also many people with illness or disability are capable of committing suicide without assistant. In many country, they are allow to refuse intake of food or medicine. If they really have the will to die, they should be able to do it without assistant.

Anyway I hope I'm never faced with this kind of circumstances.

To add to what I put before

Who gets to decide under what circumstances is assisted suicide fine and under what circumstances is assited suicide inappropriate?

Doing it on a case to case basis is ideal, but impossible. There will be disparity between case to case, because of different circumstances, and different judges. It is also difficult for a third person (the judge) to understand all the circumstances.

kaitou, I didn't know this thread existed. Frankly, I wish you had left it alone. This is a very painful reminder of what I have been put through in my own life.

I understand completely what you are saying. You are taking the stance of a practical and logical person who has never been placed in a situation where emotion is the ruling factor, not logic. I used to pose the same questions myself. How do we manage to do this as logically, rationally, and legally as possible? I have been in the unfortunate position of watching people I love die unnecessarily painful deaths. I do believe that assisted suicide can be accomplished legally in a way that would extinguish all problems or questions associated with it. I am sure that I will be reopening a can of worms and take a lot of flack from some people, when I state what I believe would be an effective method to legally resolve this dilemma. So be it. I have given this quite a lot of thought over the years.

First, let me say that, to a certain extent, assisted suicide already exists legally. Most people just aren't aware of it. I have seen this done a few times, so I know it to be true. When a patient is entering the final stages of a terminal illness, when they are in excruciating agony and they are past all hope of recovery, the patient's doctor prescribes dosages of morphine that will ensure the patient will die. This is perfectly legal and it is done every day. If not in all countries, I know it to be fact that it is done in the U.S.

As I stated, I do believe that there is a way to allow a patient to make his own decision regarding assisted suicide, to die with dignity, and avoid any possible mistakes associated with it, that would absolutely negate all the issues and concerns that you have listed above.

Whether this is a moral sin, as some have pointed out, is in the hands of whatever God you pray to or believe in. It is not something that should be a moral judgement made by people here on this earth. Until you have walked in the shoes of someone placed in such torment or watched someone you love dearly going through the agony, you cannot begin to comprehend how mentally and physically detrimental it is to prolong their life. This should be a decision that is placed solely in the hands of the person whose life we are discussing.

I believe, as far as the United States is concerned, each State should have a panel of 50 - 200 specialists on call (depending on the State and caseload, a large resource pool is required) consisting of oncologists, psychiatrists, and other medical experts. Basically, an individual with a medical degree, who works with patients (and is highly regarded in their medical field) with varying illnesses across the board. Specialists in differing cancers, Lou Gehrig's Disease, MS,. anything that can be deemed an illness that is completely incurable at the time a formal request has been made. These people will work on a rotating basis in "teams" of 7. Due to the timing involved, it is necessary to have as many experts "on tap" to allow a hearing to commence and end in a short span of time.

They will convene on a regular basis to hear all the pros and cons of each "case". "Case" being defined as a patient who has initiated a formal request for suicidal assistance. This request is done through the patient's own doctor, who has intimate knowledge of the patient's case. Prior to this request being made, ideally when it is first brought up for discussion by the patient (timing is a major factor that has to be included and considered), a minimum of two other doctors who are experts in the particular disease, should be brought in to examine the patient, run whatever tests they deem necessary, and state their opinions in a written report. The result being that at the time of the FORMAL request, at least three medical experts have had an opportunity to familiarize themselves with the patient and his/her disease, and all the necessary papework to move forward will already be in place. All that is necessary is for the patient to call his doctor and give him/her the go ahead. Once the formal request has been made, the patient, the doctors, any people intimately involved with providing the day to day healthcare for the patient, and family members, are the only ones who should be allowed to attend the hearing. Each person who is intimately involved with the case will be allowed to state their opinions and the reasoning behind it. Each panel member will ask as many questions as they feel is necessary to all individuals involved, based upon statements made and the reports that have been submitted, to render an appropriate decision. This would absolutely ensure that someone's life is not being taken unnecessarily or unwillingly. If the panel agrees by a 2/3 majority that, indeed, there is no question that the patient's illness is terminal, a formal decision is rendered to allow the patient to legally be assisted to commit suicide. It is then left up to the doctor and the patient as to the how's and whens to proceed, IF, the patient wants to proceed. Doing this allows the patient the freedom of decision, without legal repercussions for the doctor. The majority of doctors who have patients in these situations have established a rapport with the patient and will not choose to do anything that is against the wishes of that patient.

This is as close to a "perfect plan" to resolve the problem that I can come up with. Other than that, allowing the patient's doctor to prescribe a lethal dose of morphine to the patient, is the only solution and seems to have worked well. The biggest considerations with this is timing, the patient's ability to take the dose themselves, and an outsider's interference.

So, start punching holes if you like, I don't mind. I am always up for a logical debate. Maybe we can come up with a viable legal plan together. However, anyone that is of a mind for it, be forewarned that a religious take on this will be completely negated by me. Frankly, I don't want to hear it, and it will not be considered in my discussion. I am looking for constructive feedback from a legal standpoint only. I will check back on this post and answer when I am able.

It's a controversial mater. I believe that, in an emotional mater, if you're not willing to do it yourself, you don't deserve to have your pain ended. It's the peak of selfishness to ask someone else to kill you.

In a medical sense, you should write down or type up your wishes and send it to the most trusted people in your life. If, in a coma lasting for more than two months, you want them to let you go, tell them before hand, that way the people who have to make the disision have a little closure.

It's a controversal mater. I beleive that, in an emotional mater, if you're not willing to do it yourself, you don't deserve to have your pain ended. It's the peak of selfishness to ask someone else to kill you.

In a medical sense, you should write down or type up your wishes and send it to the most trusted people in your life. If, in a coma lasting for more than two months, you want them to let you go, tell them before hand, that way the people who have to make the disision have a little closure.

Although I agree with your second paragraph, the creation of Living Wills and Healthcare Proxies are specifically for that purpose, I do not fully agree with your first paragraph. If a person is physically capable of ending their own life, then yes, it is selfishness to ask someone else to do this for you. Personally, I was not speaking about that. I am speaking about people who have deteriorated to the point in which they cannot just give themselves an overdose of morphine, or whatever else may be available to them. Lou Gehrig's disease is a physically degenerative disease. Most cancers will lead you to the point of no return, in which you cannot physically give yourself the killer dose. That is what I am referring to. As long as someone is physically able to move around on their own, they may still hold out hope and do not want to die. I am talking about when they get to the point where they hit the "point of no return" and are still hanging on, in pain. Why should they be placed in a position where the pain is so unendurable. That does happen to people and they are left for days, weeks, a month or so, in excruciating agony.

I know for myself, after watching enough people go through this, I don't want to be left hanging on, in diapers, unable to move. But, I don't think I have it in me to give up hope if I am able to move about freely. It is only when my body has betrayed me, I am still cognizant, and I am in such pain, that I would want to enforce the law that has been passed for my benefit. It allows me freedom of choice, with the help of my doctor, that I would not otherwise have. If you have ever seen anyone go through this kind of agony, you will have an understanding of exactly what I am saying.

Even though Dr. Kevorkian went to jail, everyone he was involved with thanked him for his help, and as a fact the families called him. Sounds like they were sure of what had to be done. I think everyone should have the choice of dying with dignity and not suffer through pain and misery to die anyway.

I agree completely T-Man. Dr. Kevorkian was unfairly and unnecessarily vilified. I think it takes a great deal of courage to do what that man did. He truly took his hippocratic oath to heart. He became the voice for these people and many more. The fact that he was found guilty and sent to prison shows me how the line is most definitely blurred when it comes to separation of church and state.

Although I agree with your second paragraph, the creation of Living Wills and Healthcare Proxies are specifically for that purpose, I do not fully agree with your first paragraph. If a person is physically capable of ending their own life, then yes, it is selfishness to ask someone else to do this for you. Personally, I was not speaking about that. I am speaking about people who have deteriorated to the point in which they cannot just give themselves an overdose of morphine, or whatever else may be available to them. Lou Gehrig's disease is a physically degenerative disease. Most cancers will lead you to the point of no return, in which you cannot physically give yourself the killer dose. That is what I am referring to. As long as someone is physically able to move around on their own, they may still hold out hope and do not want to die. I am talking about when they get to the point where they hit the "point of no return" and are still hanging on, in pain. Why should they be placed in a position where the pain is so unendurable. That does happen to people and they are left for days, weeks, a month or so, in excruciating agony.

I know for myself, after watching enough people go through this, I don't want to be left hanging on, in diapers, unable to move. But, I don't think I have it in me to give up hope if I am able to move about freely. It is only when my body has betrayed me, I am still cognizant, and I am in such pain, that I would want to enforce the law that has been passed for my benefit. It allows me freedom of choice, with the help of my doctor, that I would not otherwise have. If you have ever seen anyone go through this kind of agony, you will have an understanding of exactly what I am saying.I do understand what you're saying, and that is what wills are for. Or even if you can't put that situation in a will, you could talk to one of your loved ones, or even a nurse, and spell out the specific details you mentioned. Hence, if the person in question is going through a physical ailment, assisted suicide should and must be allowed.

I appreciate that you understand what I am saying, and that you agree assisted suicide should and must be allowed. But regarding wills, no, it doesn't cover it. Wills are followed after someone dies, not before. Living wills are used when someone is unconscious, not conscious. That is why I suggested a specific assisted suicide law. As it stands now, if you speak to someone you love, or a nurse, and they follow your wishes, they can be arrested and charged with murder. Which is exactly what happened to Kevorkian.

Fully agree. When they feel that there is no hope,and the pain is too much then assisting is good