I was actually going to stay away from the religious discussions board, it was starting to give me an ulcer ;), but I've met so many kind caring people there that I decided to start my own thread.

Why can't people of different faiths, different beliefs, accept one another?

I used to be a Christian but now I'm a Deist. I believe in God but not church, not organized religion and not the bible.

I've been told that becaue of my beliefs that I don't believe in the same God as Christians do, and therefore I won't go to heaven.

My belief is that anyone who lives a good, honest, decent life, regardless of their beliefs, will go to heaven (if heaven even exists).

I have no problem discussing religion with anyone of any faith. I find science fascinating, even though I don't have a good enough grasp on it to use it as an argument for any particular belief. I would like to learn more about others beliefs. I don't wish to convert, I'm happy with my beliefs, I would just like the opportunity to learn about others beliefs without being talked down to about my own.

So, what do you believe, why? Where you raised with your beliefs or did you decide for yourself later on in life? If you changed beliefs, why, what changed your mind? Have you ever been curious of others beliefs? Are you still searching?

I really would like to have a nice discussion about this. Everyone is welcome here, but let's respect eachothers beliefs, eachothers way of life. If you are here solely to convince people to follow your beliefs, then please don't join in the discussion, I don't want this to turn into a fight.

I look forward to hearing what everyone has to say.

Alty :)

I used to love occult stuff, as I was young, and didn't know what 'occult' was, so just read some books about aliens, pyramids, hypnosis, out of body experiences, ancient archaeology. I found them interesting, but they didn't resonate with my internal turmoil (and how to escape). Also, they didn't have a predictable pattern that led to any meaning.
so when my life turned so desperate, I clung to what I knew as a child, god. As I studied the bible and prayed, more and more a pattern developed of freedom from the effects of sin. I'm not converting anyone, just saying that the god in the bible made the most sense to the trouble in my life.
I think the reason christians want to convert others, is that they don't understand their own conversion, coming away from the sin in their heart. They want others to be as they think they are, on the train to heaven, away from hell.
others' conversion does come from a knowledge of god, but after that, it's up to god in their heart to draw them away from sin.

Thanks for sharing cogs. I respect your beliefs, and I'm glad that you found what works for you.

I grew up Lutheran, went to a Catholic school for 10 years and then, as an adult, became a Deist.

I don't go to church, I pray to God in my own home. I do talk to my children about God, and much of the information they receive is Christian in nature, God, Jesus, some things from the bible, but no directly. I answer their questions and always let them know that it's up to them to decide what's right in their lives.

If my children grow up to be Atheists, I'm okay with that, as long as it comes from within them. I want them to find their own way, and to be happy with whatever they choose.

It is because of the passion of the belief and the actual teaching, for example in most Christianity and in Islam, you are the only right religion, and it is actually your mission in life to spread the faith. You view anyone else as doomed if they do not convert. So if they actually care for you, they don't want to see you doomed so they must for your own good convert you.

And of course within christianity, ( expcept for a couple groups that teach good works for salvation) good works is nice but is not what saves you, You can not do enough good since they believe in the evil nature of man, that needs some cleansing some salvation to be saved. So to the christian, if you don't include Jesus into your faith and belief, you are not saved.

I do understand that Chuck, but it's difficult to accept when you're constantly on the other end of it.

I'm happy with my beliefs, and I really do think that the God I believe in is the same God that Christians believe in, I just don't follow the same rituals as a Christian does.

I am a Deist, but if you look up the definition, I don't agree with everything to do with that religion, it's just the closest to my actual beliefs.

God is in my heart, to me that is enough. :)

First, let me say that I can and do accept you. That does not mean that I accept your beliefs as valid. It is wrong to even dislike someone because of a difference in belief.

Let me share a little of my history.

I can remember being in church and Sunday school when very young, but after we moved to another city, my parents dropped out of church. When I reached my early teen years, I was brought into contact with the "Pentecostal" beliefs in the following manner.

There was a large circus type tent, there was sawdust on the ground, and the first time I walked under that tent, I sensed something almost tangible in the atmosphere. I didn't know at the time what it was, but it was real.

I had been to various churches with my friends from time to time, but in none of them did I ever feel the almost electric presence of God.

A few months later, I went to the altar and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, and a few months after that , I received the experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking in a language I never learned as the initial evidence of that experience.

I've never wanted to go back to anything before that experience, and that's been more than 50 years now.

Alty,

I agree with Galveston. I totally accept you and I like you. For me to reject anyone as a person just because they don't believe like I do is horrible and totally UN Christian. BUT like Galveston, I can't ever say to you " all paths lead to God so whatever path you want to take is just as good as the one i believe". I can't say that because I don't believe it! I believe what Jesus said.. he is the ONLY way. However, I respect your choice.

I became a Christian as a child. I have a personal relationship with Jesus and I KNOW him... I know he is real because he talks to me... ( OK, no I don't hear his voice) but he hears me. I can't go into all the unique ways he has answered me.. but I will let you know.. he has a very good sense of humor. He is as real to me as anyone I know. So NO I haven't ever questioned my faith. But since I have been chatting on AMHD and talked to several atheisist or other faiths.. I am understanding more where they are coming from. And WHY some of the Bible would seem like a fairytale or plain silly to them. So my eyes have been opened and I try to see their side and I hope I am becoming a better Christian because of it.

Alty,

I agree with Galveston. I totally accept you and I like you. For me to reject anyone as a person just because they don't believe like I do is horrible and totally UN Christian. BUT like Galveston, i can't ever say to you " all paths lead to God so whatever path you want to take is just as good as the one i believe". I can't say that because i don't believe it! I believe what Jesus said..he is the ONLY way. However, I respect your choice.

Exactly my view. I have run into some people who have told me that to disagree with their beliefs is to reject them as a person. I have have some great discussions with people that I vehemently disagree with, and who hold too much different faiths. I have become friends with many because of those discussions.

I would hope that those who feel that disagreement is rejection would try lowering their "shields" and separate the person from the points of disagreement.

Thank you for sharing your stories.

My upbringing was a bit different, the church was a part of my life but always in a negative way, I was always on the outside looking in.

My father was Catholic, my mother Lutheran, when they decided to get married they wanted to marry in the Catholic church. They went to the priest and he told them that they could not marry in his church unless my mother became Catholic. She refused, she didn't wish to be Catholic. She knew that the Lutheran pastor wouldn't have a problem with my dad remaining Catholic, so she told the priest that it was fine, they'd marry in the Lutheran church instead. The priest yelled at them, "If you marry in the Lutheran church then you are not married in the eyes of the Lord, you will be living in sin and all your children will be bastards". This was in Germany.

We moved to Canada when I was 3 1/2 years old, I started kindergarten at 5 years of age, and up until grade 2 I went to a public school. I made a friend in my neighborhood and she was Catholic, so I begged my parents to let me go to the Catholic school so I could be with her. It was hard to adjust to a new country, a new language, so they honored my request because they wanted me to be with my friend.

In Catholic school I was ostersized by the teachers and a lot of the kids whose parents didn't want their children playing with a child that wasn't Catholic. In fact, when I was a teen one of my friends parents told me I was going to hell because I'm not Catholic. I told her to save me a spot by the fire. Yes, I had a mouth on me even then. ;)

Ten years of bible study, of sitting on the bench when our school went to church, while the rest of my friends went up to receive communion. My father asking the priest not to single me out, to please let me go up with the rest of the class. No, she's not Catholic, be happy we even allow her in our church, but she won't receive communion. Come on, you can pray over it until you're blue in the face, it's still just a wafer, but to a child who has to sit on the bench, who gets asked questions like "Are you so evil that you can't get communion?" that was a wafer of gold, one I never received in the 10 years I went to Catholic school.

Yes, my parents would have taken me out of that school had I asked, but all my friends were there and I thought I could tough out the hard times. I did tough it out, and turned my back on organized religion for good. But, contrary to some people's belief. I didn't turn my back on God.

I was baptized in the Lutheran faith and I was confirmed in the Lutheran faith, it wasn't until much later that I decided that I had had enough of organized religion and one mans view on the bible. I started to find answers to my questions, and that's what brought me to my beliefs. They are as real to me as yours are to you, you will just have to trust me on that.

That's part of my story. Maybe now you can understand a bit better why I am who I am and believe what I believe. :)

For the record, Classy T, Galveston, I also like the two of you, you are good people and to me that's all that matters. :)

Altenweg:

Thank you for putting yourself out there, and I hope you do not get another ulcer.

I accept that there are other beliefs and doctrines; although, I do not agree with them all.

I was raised RC, lapsed starting in college,and went through the motions when I did go to church or thought of God. Met my wife, a Baptist, and it was not into my late 30s that I realized that trying to be "good" of my own self will was not enough. I had committed a lot of sins that I could not deny, forget, or feel forgiven for, till I just broke down and pleaded helplessness to the Lord and asked for forgiveness and salvation.

I believe good works are the result of faith and not vice versa.

I believe Jesus Christ died and resurrected for all sin and all sinners that accept this.

Thanks for sharing your beliefs Inthebox, I'm drinking lots of milk for the ulcer. ;)


I believe good works are the result of faith and not vice versa.

This is one point I can't agree with. I don't think that faith has anything to do with good works. There are many people who do good things and are Atheists.

Christianity, Atheism, Deism, Lutheran, Baptist, those are just titles. If a person is bad then it really doesn't matter what title they wear, same thing goes for a good person.

Faith is a choice, it has nothing to do with the kind of people we are. :)

Well,I thought you were going to leave them alone too... tap tap tap,goes the shoes on the floor.

Enough brow beating.

Me, I was raised Roman Catholic,Made to go to not only mass,but Sunday school,VERY much against my will.

At 14 or so(a long time ago... )I converted to Protestant which was my fathers house of prayer.

At 17-18 I was so immersed in drugs and alcohol I was forced,by the courts,into treatment where I learned I didn't HAVE TO do the organized religion thing,I could have a higher power"OF MY UNDERSTANDING"not the teachings I was brought up to believe,not the "If you don't do this,you'll go to hell"Not the punishing,fearful entity which I was taught to believe in.

Well,I saw this as a reprieve from the doom I believed I was in for.

Now, if someone TELLS me that I am going to hell because of this belief,or not being 'allowed' into their heaven because I don't subscribe in there doctrine,well I have a certain belligerence for those people,Zealots,I prefer to call them.

If someone walks in to an AA or NA or CA(ok any 12 step program) and hears the word GOD,they become uncomfortable.Most addicts/alcoholics have been introduced to the all powerful,punishing entity which I have been.They would rather stay on their path as to go religious.In this thought the 'program' states a belief in a 'power greater than yourself' It could be a tree,a rock,the entire group as a whole,a waterfall,whatever.

I looked into the Deist religion you stated was closest to your beliefs,I guess it is similar to this as well.

Now how do we see eye to eye with those who would shun the addict who is teetering on the edge,wholeheartedly attempting to fight off the effects of their addiction,and are told they are not going to succeed unless they convert/conform?

Simply,I can't.

While my program teaches love for all,hate needs addressed or relapse is eminent,it doesn't say repent,conform to this exact way or else... it is a simple suggestion,not a command.You don't command an addict/alcoholic, you suggest and work with them.

I'll stop here for a while and read responses.

Ken

Thanks for sharing your beliefs Inthebox, I'm drinking lots of milk for the ulcer. ;)



This is one point I can't agree with. I don't think that faith has anything to do with good works. There are many people who do good things and are Atheists.

Christianity, Atheism, Deism, Lutheran, Baptist, those are just titles. If a person is bad then it really doesn't matter what title they wear, same thing goes for a good person.

Faith is a choice, it has nothing to do with the kind of people we are. :)

A person I worked with in recovery was a survivor of a satanic cult,born,raised,bread for the continuing breeding of new cultists.

This person is now an attorney constantly working to help the addicts who need legal representation.

Is this person evil because of how they were brought into this world?Was made to do VERY unimaginable things to serve their beliefs?How do we judge them?With open arms,or do we shun them because of their status even though they broke away from their past?I know how I judged them,and I am ashamed of how it turned out.

It's easy to say we can have faith,there is very little to do there to prove it,just say a few lines and there you are,but faith without work is... well... if you have never heard it,I'll not start that fight on this thread.

Ken

..... I'll stop here for a while and read responses.
Dear Ken : it all depends on the replies posted in response : it often seems more that unless responses are pro-Christian, the thread is closed...
With all respect : sometimes I ask myself why those who close threads can't be people of different faiths that accept one another...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Ken, I know, I'm sorry, I couldn't stay away. I'll take my punishment, I can handle it. ;)

Thank you for telling us about yourself and for telling us about your beliefs and how they came to be.

I think we all have one thing in common, we all believe in something, we all find strength in something, and we are all very human.

For some people the strength they need to go on is found in God, for others it's a program, and for many others it's science. But we all have beliefs.

If we could all accept eachothers beliefs then imagine what this world could be? Paradise, that's what I imagine. :)

Is it closing?

A person I worked with in recovery was a survivor of a satanic cult,born,raised,bread for the continuing breeding of new cultists.

I once dated a Satanist. Great, now I'm going to hell for sure. ;)

He wasn't active in a cult, didn't go to a Satanic church, but he did believe that Satan was his God.

He wasn't a bad person, didn't do bad things, in fact, he was very kind. Every year we delivered toys for Santas anonymous. He volunteered in a homeless shelter once a month (no it wasn't court ordered). He was a good person who just so happened to pray to Satan.

I will admit that his beliefs did cause some problems in our relationship. I've always believed in God, how could I hope to have a relationship with a man who praised Satan?

Ultimately we broke up, we were just to different, but we are still friends to this day, and yes, he's still a Satanist.

Wow, didn't think I'd divulge that info. ;)

Dear Ken : it all depends on the replies posted in response : it often seems more that unless responses are pro-Christian, the thread is closed .....
With all respect : sometimes I ask myself why those who close threads can't be people of different faiths that accept one another .....


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Cred, I think it depends on who joins in the discussion. There are usually only a handful of die hard Christians that won't accept anyone else's beliefs but their own. They will do anything to get you to see their way.

I understand that it's their mission, but, having gone to a Catholic school, I do have to say that Christians are taught to spread the word, not ram it down other peoples throats.

I've had good experiences and bad experiences. Sadly the bad usually stick out more in my memory then the good.

A good Christian is supposed to show you the path, not push you towards it at gun point. ;)

Hi Altenweg. Interesting post.
I was raised Roman Catholic but now I call myself a recovering Catholic. I believe in the creator I call "God" for lack of a better word. God is everything and everything is God.
I don't believe in organized religion or the trinity anymore (google Horus) so I guess I can't call myself a Christian either. My father was a lapsed Lutheran who helped my mom drag all our butts to mass every Sunday, 30 miles to the nearest church through raging Alberta blizzards. My dad was the kindest, most generous, thoughtful man. Now this is what I'm talking about. "Humanitarianism" This is all we need. Whether you believe in evolution or creationism, we may well have all been brothers and sisters at one time. We need to close the gap and become a family again.
I think that all predjudice and hate stems from
Fear. Man has been know to overcome fear
Hasn't he? I am optomistic to the point of foolishness that mankind will find a way to resolve. When the whole world suddenly realizes that they've been feeling faith/love for the same divine force. Only they didn't know it was the same God. This whole "my God is better than your God" will be in the history books.

I guess to answer the first question,

How can we accept Osama Bin Ladens' beliefs which tell him and his followers to kill the 'infidels'.They are only following that which they were taught.

Should we embrace him(them) and accept their beliefs as just and move on?

NO, we can't accept that now can we.

Cred, I think it depends on who joins in the discussion. There are usually only a handful of die hard Christians that won't accept anyone elses beliefs but their own.

Bingo! That was my point.

You don't accept my beliefs - why do you insist that I must accept yours?

The question of the thread was:

"Why can't people of different faiths accept one another?"

To accept another person does not mean that we must accept their beliefs. This is a critical thing for all people to understand if we are to have a peaceful harmonious society. This may be seen as a doctrine of unity, but forcing everyone to accept everyone else's beliefs is actual an intolerant position because it denies the right to those who disagree to hold to other beliefs.

Rather, our position should be to accept the RIGHT for everyone to believe as they do, why accepting the RIGHT of everyone any who chooses to do so, to disagree.

I'll answer the basic question. If people didn't say oh YES there IS a god! Jesus did do this! This this is real! Yes yes! Fact true! Your wrong! Then it would be easy. Sadly, people insist their religion is correct and true and there is indeed a God. This is your religion, and your BELIEF. It's what you BELIEVE, please don't insist you're right. Simply say I BELIEVE. Not THERE IS a God. Wrong, and it hurts other people. That's that.

This is your religion, and your BELIEF. It's what you BELIEVE, please don't insist you're right. Simply say I BELIEVE. Not THERE IS a God. Wrong, and it hurts other people. That's that.

Interesting. If we say that there is a God, somehow that "hurts" you because you believe that there is not a God.

But denying us the right to say that there is a God is okay?

How is that "tolerance"?

Interesting. If we say that there is a God, somehow that "hurts" you because you believe that there is not a God.

But denying us the right to say that there is a God is okay?

How is that "tolerance"?

Where does this poster say she is tolerant?

She never stated that and now you are bringing a new idea into a place where there isn't one.

Where does this poster say she is tolerant?

she never stated that and now you are bringing a new idea into a place where there isn't one.

Agreed. Good point.

Hurray for this thread Alty :)

I was raised a Christian (Lutheran) here in the Midwest. My mother was Catholic but took on my dad's Lutheran side when they married. I was always involved in the church until a few years ago. I went to Bible camp for many years, taught Sunday school and Bible School in the summer, volunteered for communion, was an acolyte, played bells in the bell choir, sang in the choir.
I prayed all of the time, in school, driving, with friends, always before going to sleep at night.

Then a few years ago I just stopped and thought about it. I don't even remember why, maybe it was because of losing many familiars from moving away, traveling, I had to look in myself with a new perspective. With that perspective I realized I don't believe in religion. I was never angry or upset with God or the religion in general. I have always had a good life and been very lucky.
Little about following religion made sense to me, and the fact that that wasn't upsetting proved to me that it was a part of my life I felt like I didn't need anymore.

I'm still really young; I don't claim to have a lot of life experience. I don't have a lot of answers, I have an open mind, and like to hear what anyone has to say about the subject.

Wow a lot of posts while I was on the phone. :)

Bsd_detector, I'm in Alberta too, very close to Edmonton. Thank you for sharing your story. :)

KBC, Osama Bin Laden, nope, don't accept his faith because it teaches that death is okay, to kill others for your own power is okay. That's not okay.

For me, if you're a good person then I don't care what you're faith is, but if you're a bad person I also don't care what your faith is. ;)

It does hurt when people put down your beliefs. I do agree that everyone has the right to believe whatever they wish, I don't begrudge anyone that right. It's funny that a lot of other people say that, but when you enter into a discussion with them then they start telling you that your religion is wrong, that you are wrong, that you must believe what they believe in order to be right.

I've never said that my way is the only way, my way is one of many, all I'm looking for is acceptance of my beliefs, that's all, I'm not asking you to believe what I believe.

There is more than one way to believe in God, and there are many other ways that don't even include God. If we could just accept each other and our different beliefs, really, it would be a better world.

Yup, if I ran for the Miss Canada pageant I'd ask for "world peace". ;)

Let's keep this discussion positive, I know we can do it if we all try. Let's be respectful of eachothers beliefs, give it a try, we might be surprised at the outcome.

Maybe, just maybe, we can start that peace I was talking about. :)

xxariesxx, gosh, that's a mouthful, we're going to have to find you a nickname. ;)

Thank you for sharing your story. It's funny, but I noticed that a lot of Atheists started as Christians and then decided that it wasn't for them.

Also, most people who are now Atheists didn't leave the church or Christianity because they were angry at God, but simply because what they were being taught didn't hold water with them.

That's exactly how I feel about the bible, and organized religion. I believe that the bible was written by men, fallible men. The bible is a good book, it has many interesting stories, and maybe there is some truth to the stories, but for me, there's more fiction than non-fiction. I don't think the bible is the "word of God".

So, after deciding that, I realized that going to church to hear a man preach to me about the writings from a man made book, well, that didn't make any sense.

Yes, the way I was treated in school and at church had a lot to do with it too, but not as much as some people seem to think.

So, I believe in God, but because I don't believe in the bible or church, many Christians deny me the right to say that I believe in the same God that they do. That definitely hurts.

I'm glad you came here. I hope that we can all discuss our beliefs openly, honestly and without any prejudice. :)

That's exactly how I feel about the bible, and organized religion. I believe that the bible was written by men, fallible men.

I am glad that you said that is a belief, and you are welcome to that belief, but the evidence shows something quite different.

Hehe.. well just aries is fine, or "you" works too :D

I agree about the bible. It has many inspiring and useful passages, as any self help book would, but I don't believe it as being the "word of God" either. One thing I cannot understand is why is it such a source of dependence when only selective passages are followed while others are looked over? If the bible is the word of God and it should be followed exactly, why only follow certain parts? I'm honestly asking anyone because I'd like to know.

I can understand you'd be hurt by being told you can't believe in the same God as Christians. I would think if there is a God he/she would be above petty particulars and not be so picky about how you choose to believe in him/her.

(Adding this in: I really don't want to offend anyone, and if I do it is unintentional; just for future reference :) )

One thing I cannot understand is why is it such a source of dependence when only selective passages are followed while others are looked over? If the bible is the word of God and it should be followed exactly, why only follow certain parts? I'm honestly asking anyone because I'd like to know.

That is a good question and often a valid criticism.

I am willing to stand on the whole word of God because I believe that it is the word of God, have the evidence that it is, and am willing to put my whole faith in what God has to say. I hold to the whole Bible as my sole standard of doctrine.

I know many Christians who take the same stand.

I am glad that you said that is a belief, and you are welcome to that belief, but the evidence shows something quite different.

Tom, I really don't want to get into this with you again. I can't make that determination because I haven't seen any evidence to prove that the bible is the "word of God'. Until I see proof I will follow my belief.

Please, lets just discuss our differing views. If you want to add this proof as part of your explanation as to why you believe what you believe then fine, but I don't want this to turn into another confrontation and name calling episode. Can we agree to that?

I'm putting out an olive branch Tom, I'll leave the rest to you.

Tom, I really don't want to get into this with you again. I can't make that determination because I haven't seen any evidence to prove that the bible is the "word of God'. Until I see proof I will follow my belief.

You refused to consider the evidence when it was offered.


Please, lets just discuss our differing views.

I am always willing to do so. Just please accept the fact that other may disagree with you, and be prepared to accept that if you challenge my faith and my beliefs, that I am prepared to defend those beliefs, and yes, I may say things which disagree with what you want to believe. Accept the fact that disagreement is not a personal offence.


If you want to add this proof as part of your explanation as to why you believe what you believe then fine, but I don't want this to turn into another confrontation and name calling episode. Can we agree to that?

Well, Alty, I did not engage in any name-calling, so I am and always have been willing to discuss respectfully.

Originally Posted by xxariesxx
One thing I cannot understand is why is it such a source of dependence when only selective passages are followed while others are looked over? If the bible is the word of God and it should be followed exactly, why only follow certain parts? I'm honestly asking anyone because I'd like to know.

I would like to know the answer to that as well.

Maybe it's a lot like the dictionary, we don't use every word in the dictionary, we, as humans, never will, there are too many words in the english language to learn every single one.

So maybe the Christians just pick the passages that are the most common, or make the most sense in their every day lives.

That's just a guess though.

That is a good question and often a valid criticism.

I am willing to stand on the whole word of God because I believe that it is the word of God, have the evidence that it is, and am willing to put my whole faith in what god has to say. I hold to the whole Bible as my sole standard of doctrine.

I see. I was meaning I wonder why some bible passages are followed so strictly while others are dismissed. Personally perhaps you don't do this, I am only talking in general.

For example homosexuality (not to open that can of worms, just a short example) - it is constantly quoted as being unacceptable in the bible. But in the bible it is also all right to stone your daughter, yet never today would any Christian quote that to defend someone who hurt their girl.

It seems like it means the bible can be adapted to any current political or cultural situation rather than completely followed in its entirety as a holy book should be?

I would like to know the answer to that as well.

Maybe it's alot like the dictionary, we don't use every word in the dictionary, we, as humans, never will, there are too many words in the english language to learn every single one.

So maybe the Christians just pick the passages that are the most common, or make the most sense in their every day lives.

That's just a guess though.

As I said in a previous post, that is a good question and often a valid criticism.

I am willing to stand on the whole word of God because I believe that it is the word of God, have the evidence that it is, and am willing to put my whole faith in what God has to say. I hold to the whole Bible as my sole standard of doctrine.

I know many Christians who take the same stand.

Thus though this is often a valid criticism, it is wrong to generalize and paint all who profess to be Christian with the same brush.

You refused to consider the evidence when it was offered

Really, let's not start that again. This is a new thread, perhaps it's time to leave the past behind us and move forward. I am being sincere Tom, I'm willing to meet you half way, you have to walk the other half.


I am always willing to do so. Just please accept the fact that other may disagree with you, and be prepared to accept that if you challenge my faith and my beliefs, that I am prepared to defend those beliefs, and yes, I may say things which disagree with what you want to believe. Accept the fact that disagreement is not a personal offence.

I don't mind people disagreeing with me, it only hurts when I'm told that my faith isn't good enough. I don't think you'd like it if I said that to you. You can disagree with my beliefs, just don't belittle them. That's all I ask.


Well, Alty, I did not engage in any name-calling, so I am and always have been willing to discuss respectfully.

Like I said, let's let by-gones be by-gones, I have no desire to start an argument.

I know we won't agree, pretty much on everything, but that doesn't mean that we can't discuss. Who knows, maybe we'll learn something from each other. :)

So maybe the Christians just pick the passages that are the most common, or make the most sense in their every day lives.

I like this answer. I suppose I was talking much too specifically before, but this makes a lot sense in general

I see. I was meaning I wonder why some bible passages are followed so strictly while others are dismissed. Personally perhaps you don't do this, I am only talking in general.

For example homosexuality (not to open that can of worms, just a short example) - it is constantly quoted as being unacceptable in the bible. But in the bible it is also alright to stone your daughter, yet never today would any Christian quote that to defend someone who hurt their girl.

It seems like it means the bible can be adapted to any current political or cultural situation rather than completely followed in its entirety as a holy book should be?

And that is my major problem with the bible.

I do believe that most people read the bible, pick what is pertinent to their faith and leave the unpleasant passages alone.

I have asked about this before but the question has always been sidestepped or I've been told that those passages don't exist or I read it wrong.

Stoning your daughter is stoning your daughter, there is only one way to read that, and by anyone's standard today, it's wrong.

I see. I was meaning I wonder why some bible passages are followed so strictly while others are dismissed. Personally perhaps you don't do this, I am only talking in general.

As I just said to Alty, generalizing in this case, as in most cases is a wrong approach. While it is often true, and often a valid criticism, many Christians do believe the Bible is full.


For example homosexuality (not to open that can of worms, just a short example) - it is constantly quoted as being unacceptable in the bible. But in the bible it is also all right to stone your daughter, yet never today would any Christian quote that to defend someone who hurt their girl.

Let's not get back on these old stale claims of contradictions. There was just a thread on that, I have seen the list on internet, and have wasted far too much time in showing what the context of the passages are, which are more often than not, saying the opposite of the claim.

These are easily addressed by simply following this approach:

1) Read the context of the chapter (vast majority refuted by reading one verse before and after the quoted verse) At least 95-99% of all these claims are refuted by doing this simple step.

2) Recognize that contradictions in fact only exist when the two verses are completely incompatible (mutually exclusive)

3) Unclear verses must be interpreted in the light of those are clear (i.e. often a verse or partial verse is taken out of context and not considered in light of explicit teachings in scripture)

4) Rare cases require additional study in the larger context of scripture, or the original culture/languages of the Bible. The Bible was not penned in English but in Koine Greek and Ancient Hebrew. As in any case where one translates a text, especially from a precise language such as Greek to a less precise language such as English, some clarity is lost and to see the original intent, we need to look at what was said in the original language.

5) Often one book gives part of the story and another gives a different part. They are complementary, not contradictory


It seems like it means the bible can be adapted to any current political or cultural situation rather than completely followed in its entirety as a holy book should be?

That is exactly where we get false teachings and cults from. People failing to consider the whole of scripture. That is why scripture itself warns strongly against such a practice.

Thus though this is often a valid criticism, it is wrong to generalize and paint all who profess to be Christian with the same brush.

But what about the parts like Aries stated. Stoning your daughter to death (like they almost did to Mary in the bible). This was common practice and acceptable, was it not?

What about the way that slaves where treated and the rules on how to beat your slave and for what discretions you where supposed to beat them?

Certainly you can't adhere to all of that.

But what about the parts like Aries stated. Stoning your daughter to death (like they almost did to Mary in the bible). This was common practice and acceptable, was it not?

What about the way that slaves where treated and the rules on how to beat your slave and for what discretions you where supposed to beat them?

Certainly you can't adhere to all of that.

Let's not get back on these old stale claims of contradictions. There was just a thread on that, I have seen the list on internet, and have wasted far too much time in showing what the context of the passages are, which are more often than not, saying the opposite of the claim.

These are easily addressed by simply following this approach:

1) Read the context of the chapter (vast majority refuted by reading one verse before and after the quoted verse) At least 95-99% of all these claims are refuted by doing this simple step.

2) Recognize that contradictions in fact only exist when the two verses are completely incompatible (mutually exclusive)

3) Unclear verses must be interpreted in the light of those are clear (i.e. often a verse or partial verse is taken out of context and not considered in light of explicit teachings in scripture)

4) Rare cases require additional study in the larger context of scripture, or the original culture/languages of the Bible. The Bible was not penned in English but in Koine Greek and Ancient Hebrew. As in any case where one translates a text, especially from a precise language such as Greek to a less precise language such as English, some clarity is lost and to see the original intent, we need to look at what was said in the original language.

5) Often one book gives part of the story and another gives a different part. They are complementary, not contradictory

I have to go for the night, sadly I have yet another funeral to attend tomorrow. When it rains it pours.

Take care everyone. Good night.

I don't mind people disagreeing with me, it only hurts when I'm told that my faith isn't good enough. I don't think you'd like it if I said that to you. You can disagree with my beliefs, just don't belittle them. That's all I ask.

I didn't belittle them. If that is the way that you interpret strong disagreement, then consider your words also.

But we need to be able to discuss clearly what our views are, and in discussing those views, there will be some strong disagreements. For example, if you are saying (as one of our discussions went) that because I say that there is only one true God and that other gods are false gods, that that is somehow attacking you, then you are saying that I must not defend one of the key tenets of my faith.

We both have to accept that strong yet respectful disagreement is a key requirement for any honest and open discussion where differences exist, and if we cannot agree on that, then it becomes a case where you believe it is okay to say as you wish about my faith (calling my God hate-filled and evil), but I dare not say anything about your faith.

We need to have a "level playing field" for discussion.

Do you agree?


I know we won't agree, pretty much on everything, but that doesn't mean that we can't discuss. Who knows, maybe we'll learn something from each other. :)

That is my point exactly.

Alty,

So sorry another funeral! It is always hard around the Holidays too.

I agree with TJ3.. in that there is no way I can say that our GOD is equal to just any god. I am not trying to be disrespectful when I say that... it is just a fundemental part of my belief. My GOD is above all and everything. And not because I THINK so but because HE SAID so. That is the reason I can't say our faiths are equal. It isn't because I think I am somehow BETTER in any way. It is just that my God is GOD ALMIGHTY, the Everlasting Father, the GREAT I AM and there is none like him nor anyone even close. Does this make sense to you? I just want you to see why you struggle with some Christians.
I am ( or hope I am) very respectful of you and your belief.

Let me ask you this... do you think that I can be respectful in spite of my beliefs?

Hi Alty,

I am a muslim,I believe in One Almighty,and I believe it has been One God since the beginning and will remain One for eternity.

I was born and brought up as a muslim,but I was not as serious into researching the why's and how's of the practices of Islam.I was a follower of the five pillars of Islam,but never looked into it more than what I knew, which is not much.

I have never questioned my religion as whether being true or not,but I came to a point where I wanted to know more about my beliefs and become the best muslim I could ever be.

I have been in touch with people of different faiths all my life and understand that it is their choice to believe or not,but this does not mean that I accept their beliefs as the right path for me.

I always knew and believed that the monotheistic faiths have a lot in common,but since I joined the Desk I have discovered some of the exact points where I have so much in common with the Jewish and Christian faiths.

Now more than ever I see the common beginning which is, that the original books of the monotheistic faiths are from the same source as I have always believed.

I am still on that journey of discovering new information and learning many new things and none of it has ever decreased my faith or belief,but has added to it and made me more firm in belief than ever that I am on the right path.

I do think you are respectful. You see, unlike many other non Christians I do understand the basis for your belief because I was raised Christian, went to Catholic school, etc. So yes, I understand, even though I don't agree.

I don't think I've explained my faith very well. It's hard to describe something that can only be felt. I wish I could write in words how I feel about God, how I pray to him, why, even though I don't go to church and don't read the bible, my beliefs aren't all that different from yours. I just cut out the man made part of religion, but I kept God in my heart. Really, I can't explain it, I wish I could.

ClassyT, you have never been disrespectful of me or my beliefs. I really do understand that becaue of your faith you cannot say that my God is equal, even though I really think that we pray to the same God, just in different ways.

As for the funeral, yes, 2 in less than 2 weeks isn't easy. This time it's my friends father, he passed away from a year long battle with lung cancer. He was a wonderful man, and he will be missed, but he's at peace now, finally. Now it's his family that has to find peace. It's those of us that are left behind that feel pain.

Thank you. :)

Firmy, thank you for sharing your beliefs with us.

Sadly I don't know a lot about the Muslim religion, I really would like to learn more, if you want to share. :)

When I went to Catholic school we had an assignment one year for religion class. We were to go to 3 churches that practiced a religion other that Catholicism. It wasn't easy to find 3 churches in our town, it's largely Catholic. I did manage to find a baptist church very close to my house.

The difference between that church and the Catholic church was as different as night and day. In the Catholic church everything was marble, oak, gold, silver. All that is shiny and new. In the baptist church we sat on old fold out chairs, when the wine was passed out it wasn't in a silver cup, but plastic disposable cups. When they passed me communion I told them that I wasn't baptist, they didn't care. Their response "you are a guest in our church and will receive the same rights as us". I was awed. Never before had I been made to feel so welcome in a church, and these people didn't know me at all.

I also went to a pentecostal church and a Lutheran church during that assignment. I have to say, the most positive experience was at the baptist church, I still remember it to this day. :)

What is it that makes you feel certain that your God IS a different God from all others? How do you know that you are praying to a different God than Altenweg, for example? I have never understood this argument about there being a different god for each religion. That's a lot of Gods! Are the different gods like alternate universes? Side by side and both equally real? Or are they all together somewhere? And only one is in charge, a sort of super God?

Or are you actually saying that everyone who doesn't believe the same tenets that you believe is praying to a false idol, that they have no God at all?

In that case, where do you draw the line? How different do their beliefs have to be from yours for you to say that their god does not exist? How do you feel that you know the God in someone else's heart is or is not the one true God?

And, separately, isn't it hurtful and disparaging to tell someone that you know for a fact that their God does not exist? Is there a more respectful way to think and talk about this problem?

Alty,

If you wish to know anything about Islam/muslims ask away on the Islam board or you may like to visit and read the FAQ there for some information :).

Hi asking, I'm glad you joined us.

I'll try to answer your question, but I'm sure that someone will disagree with me.

It's ritual, different practices. Really, if they were to go to other churches, talk with people of different faiths, they would see that they aren't all that different in their beliefs. There are differences, but not huge differences.

Of course, everyone wants to be right, so the Catholics say the Jews are wrong, the Jews say the Baptists are wrong, when really, they are all praying to the same God, just in different ways.

The reason that most religions don't accept my belief and don't accept that my God is the same as theirs, is the fact that I don't include the bible or church in my beliefs. To Christians, the bible and church is the fundemental part of their religion. You can't have faith without the bible, without church. Therefore they believe that I must not be praying to the same God.

I may not believe the same things as Christians, I believe that science had a huge hand in creating this world, and maybe God helped a little bit. I don't think that God inspired the bible, and organized religion is just a man made thing, a way to make money.

I don't have rituals, nothing is set in stone. I'm always questioning, always searching for more answers, while still believing in God.

For most relgions you can't believe in God and believe in science. The two don't mix. That's another place where I'm different. I think that God and science go together very nicely.

In most religions you should never question, but just stick to what you are taught. There is no room for questioning, looking for answers, because it might lead you away from your faith.

I'm not explaining this well, and I've written another page long post. ;)

Sorry.

Alty,

If you wish to know anything about Islam/muslims ask away on the Islam board or you may like to visit and read the FAQ there for some information :).

Thanks Firmy, I will. I'm always interested to hear about others beliefs. :)

I've got to run everyone. Continue the discussion, I think it's going really well. :)

My parents did not believe in God and did not talk about religion at all to me when I was growing up, except to reassure me about the scary things my friends said to me. God and Jesus were as real to me as fairies or elves or the easter bunny--I mean this quite literally. For a while I envisioned them as being real, but then stopped around age 7 or 8. It was hard to let go of this imaginary part of my inner life. But it was clear that adults did not believe that faeries were real. I was rather disappointed by this. My parents told me that Jesus was a real person but that there was no way to know if every story about him was true and that I would have to decide for myself what I believed about God and religion generally. This seemed like a big task for a kid, but I took it seriously.

We lived in a Catholic neighborhood and by the time I was 4, I was being told by other kids that I would go to hell. They described it in detail and scared me. I would be over at their houses and we would pray before meals and they would then look at me and remind me that I was not Catholic and would burn if I died. It made me want to be very careful, so I didn't die! Eventually, I just decided to try to ignore their assertions. I was quite relieved to think that God might not be real. (Unlike faeries and fairyland, which seemed like a real loss to me.) Oddly, their scare tactics never made me want to be Catholic. I felt kind of sorry for them because they had all this inner turmoil. They seemed to have to confess all the time, and as they got older, most of them got into trouble of some kind.

I went to a public school where I had one set of friends and another set of friends at home, who went to Catholic schools. My best friend wanted to be a nun when she grew up. She was very sweet. But she moved away when we were 11. Later, as an adult, I realized that her last name was Jewish. Was she treated as an outsider at the convent and was she struggling to be accepted? I don't know. But when I read Alty's story and others' here, I wonder.

My older sister must have been affected by our neighborhood friends too because she insisted on going to Catechism when she was 9 or 10. I think she only went for a few months or a year, which our parents allowed. I had no desire to do this. I thought weekends were for playing, not more school. I never saw any friends on Sundays because they were all at Church. But our family always spent Sundays together. Even after my mother died and my sister moved away, my father and I always spent Sunday together.

As I got older, I came to resent others' efforts to make me feel like an outsider who would be punished, not for anything I'd done but for not believing something inside my head. I continued to encounter Christians who would tell me I was going to hell. After my mother died, I was lonely and tried to go to Sunday school at a Presbyterian church my friends at school belonged to. But the teacher asked me to leave. I did not fit in both because I had not been raised with god and also because everyone else there was Chinese and I was white. I was hurt and felt I would never be able to fit into my junior high social set. In high school, I joined a Christian prayer group, again because of a girl friend I liked. But I felt uncomfortable and bored and stopped going. She more or less dropped me then. My first boyfriend was a Baptist and I went to church with him for a while. The ping pong table in the basement was a lot of fun!

My sister raised her children in the Eastern Orthodox church, to my father's dismay. Her oldest daughter has married a Catholic and seems pious. As far as I can tell, my sister's other children don't follow any religion. Neither does my sister. She regrets the time she spent in the Church, as she was not treated well.

After I was grown up, my father would talk about inviting Jehovah's Witnesses into his living room to talk about the bible. It turned out he had been raised Presbyterian and new the Bible backwards and forwards. He liked to argue with them for fun. He didn't seem to take it seriously. I discovered that I could get rid of Witnesses at the door, saving both of us time, just by politely informing them that I was an atheist, and therefore a hopeless task for them. I was always very nice to them. I liked them, but I did not like it when people tried to convert me. It seemed tedious. It was always the same and they always seemed so sure that I was a hole waiting to be filled with their message, that I had no inner life of my own making, and was somehow damaged. I thought they presumed too much.

I never got into any trouble as a teenager, despite virtually no supervision. I got good grades, did not even try drugs or alcohol, did not party or behave badly. I did not lie to anyone. I went to a good college and worked hard. I was a bit of science nerd. I did suffer from depression at times, after losing my mother as a young teen and from a couple of difficult relationships. But once I was an adult, I never felt any impulse to turn to religion no matter how bad things got. It did not ever occur to me. I have no interest in the occult either. In fact, séances and other occult matters always make me smile a little. They seem funny, like really big noses or ears.

Last weekend I read in a Catholic magazine that 10% of all Americans are former Catholics. I thought that was a huge number.

Alty, You explain very well and I am the master of the too-long post, not you!


I don't have rituals, nothing is set in stone. I'm always questioning, always searching for more answers, while still believing in God.

I think many people give themselves permission to question things within their faith and I always enjoy hearing about that, because it feels dynamic and alive to me. It seems natural to me to try to improve one's understanding of the world, whether through religious thought or through scientific thought.


I think that God and science go together very nicely.

Actually, I think many people would agree with you. I read Conscience, the magazine of Catholic opinion and it is very open to thinking about things the way you describe. I'm guessing you might like it. :)


In most religions you should never question, but just stick to what you are taught. There is no room for questioning, looking for answers, because it might lead you away from your faith.

I guess I would partly disagree with this. For a religion to maintain itself, it needs to have rules and enforce those. But I think every religion that lasts has to accommodate doubt and changes in values. The Jewish religion involves lots of questioning and rethinking the right and wrong way of living and dealing with specific issues. To me, there seems to be lots of questioning. And although the Catholic church has often repressed expressions of doubt, Catholics as a group have been the source of many great ideas and impulses. And even the Church has changed its thinking over the years. They forgave Galileo, they stopped endorsing slavery, they stopped banning usery, and so on. I don't have a sense of how well other religions accommodate questioning and change.

I have never understood this argument about there being a different god for each religion. That's a lot of Gods! Are the different gods like alternate universes? Side by side and both equally real? Or are they all together somewhere? And only one is in charge, a sort of super God?
During the 1990s, I did at least two years of heavy research on all the Texas Indian tribes as part of a contract to a publisher to write three books. Over time, the more I dug into Indian life and beliefs, the more I came to realize was that the Great Spirit those Indians were in awe of was probably the same one I worship. Yes, they "muddied the waters" with minor gods who were in control of the wind and the lightning and the harvest, and they had an oral tradition of very human and understandable stories to explain things, like how the world began or how the buffalo got his hump. But isn't that what most religions do--pass down stories so the unexplainable can be within the grasp of the human mind?

And, separately, isn't it hurtful and disparaging to tell someone that you know for a fact that their God does not exist? Is there a more respectful way to think and talk about this problem?

Atheists on here constantly say that my God does not exist - are you telling me that they are being hurtful and disparaging and disrespectful of Christianity?

Can we see eye to eye in the religions we subscribe to(or lack of religion)?

NO,look at this thread and see how idealists believe and cause arguments to arise?

I thought this was going to be a new look at the different followings and how we can see things in a similar way,but this is becoming the same ol same o,l 'he said she said'.

Obviously,this is a dead subject for me and I'll remove myself from further discussion.

Hope you see this for what it is becoming,Princess alty... and redirect the focus when you return.

Hope the funeral went OK and sorry to hear of the loss.

KBC

KBC, I don't think it's going that badly. So far we are discussing our different beliefs and doing it fairly respectfully. Considering that the topic is religion, and that's always a touchy subject, I think it's going fairly well.

I don't think we'll see eye to eye on everything, but I do think we can learn to respect eachothers beliefs.

If it does become argumentative then I will be the first one to request that this thread be closed. So far the majority of the people coming here are being rspectful and just sharing their beliefs and how they came to be.

The funeral was okay. It was in the Catholic church where I live, boy did that bring back memories. The same church of my child hood years, and I was a bit shaky when going inside.

I sat there with my husband and when we all rose and the priest started his sermon I answered in unison with the rest of the congregation, "And the lord be with you" , "praise be to God", at one point I looked around and realized, no matter how many years go by, as soon as I step inside a church it's like I never left. All of us bowing our heads, standing, sitting, kneeling at the same time. The Lord's prayer, the breaking of the bread, communion and the singing (by the way, wow, the choir really needs some work, eeek! ;)). I felt like I was a child again.

When everyone went up to receive communion, I didn't budge, didn't leave my seat. Hubby (who's never been to church except for weddings and funerals) asked why I wasn't going up. I'm not Catholic, was my answer. He said "Do you think they know that?" Of course not, but I can't receive communion, it's not allowed, I've never received communion in a Catholic church. Still the old feelings, the feeling of not being accepted, not fitting in.

It was a relief when the service was over.

I find it strange that even after all this time the church can still bring back all the negative feelings I had as a child. I know it was my imagination, but while we were there today, I felt like every eye was on me and that they were all secretly saying "you don't belong, get out". But I knew all the words, knew all the motions, but no matter what I still don't belong.

One thing I do want to ask. I've asked it before but I've never gotten an answer and I find it interesting. Christians claim that every part of the bible is imortant. In fact, when I said that every religion picks the parts of the bible that are pertinent to their faith Tj3 said, no, most Christians follow the bible in it's entirety. In other words, every part of what is written in the bible should be followed and adhered to.

Now, the 10 commandments are like the law, are they not? If you break one of the ten commandments, don't you go to hell, regardless of what you believe? Well, "Thou shallt not worship false idols" is one of the commandments, yet, when I walked into the church, there's the customary 7 foot Jesus hanging from the cross, I've never been to a church that didn't have at least one of these statues. Gold, with silver, right in front of the church, waiting to be worshiped. So, isn't it true that every time you go to church you are in fact breaking one of the commandments? That's always puzzled me, especially because I've been told that you are not to interpret the bible to suit your own needs, it's to be followed word for word. Well, that commandment is pretty clear, so why isn't it being followed?

I'm not asking this to start an argument, I just really want to know.

Now, the 10 commandments are like the law, are they not? If you break one of the ten commandments, don't you go to hell, regardless of what you believe?
No. The commandments are guides to teach us the right thing to do. The center of each is love but God knows we humans don't always understand how to give unconditional love, so the commandments are like Mom would say to her young kids, "Don't do this" and "Don't do that." We don't hear a lot about unconditional love until we meet Jesus in the New Testament (although there's lots of it in the Old Testament -- you just have to look a little harder for it most of the time).


"Thou shallt not worship false idols" is one of the commandments, yet, when I walked into the church, there's the customary 7 foot Jesus hanging from the cross, I've never been to a church that didn't have at least one of these statues. Gold, with silver, right in front of the church, waiting to be worshiped. So, isn't it true that every time you go to church you are in fact breaking one of the commandments?
No. The statues are reminders of Bible stories. In fact, in the medieval church, because parishioners didn't know how to read, there were lots of statuary and stained glass windows. The priest or minister would point to various objects and pictures to help people understand, to illustrate his sermon or homily. The statues aren't there to be worshipped. They are a learning tool.

My church has a huge stained glass window behind the altar. The center is a picture of Jesus the Good Shepherd with several sheep at his feet. The pastor might preach about Jesus as our shepherd and that we are his sheep, and what that all means. All around on that same picture window are small groups of people and things from various Bible stories--Adam and Eve in the Garden, the 12 apostles, Noah's ark, a leather-looking drawstring bag with some pieces of silver falling out (Judas's story), and many other scenes taken from the Bible. Our pastor said he can tell the entire story of the Bible and salvation by walking from one side of this huge window to the other.

The tall stained glass windows that line each side of the nave (main church section where the people sit) may show off pictures of the saints or of the apostles or of OT people. My church's nave windows feature Old and New Testament people, and surrounding the altar are small statues of the twelve apostles.

The colors of the altar cloths and the stole that the pastor or priest wears over his shoulders (if he does) also have significance. There's a reason why the priest/pastor doesn't wear red socks. There's a reason why the choir (and the pastor) wear robes. There's meaning in what is being said or sung--and when and how. The best thing I ever did was take a course that explained all this stuff. It makes worship much more meaningful, so I'm not sitting there worried about what others are thinking, but can get lost in looking at and experiencing all the symbolism around me.

Atheists on here constantly say that my God does not exist - are you telling me that they are being hurtful and disparaging and disrespectful of Christianity?

Yes. I would say so. I don't believe anyone should say to you that there is absolutely no God, because (1) it's dismissive and unkind and (2) no one can ever know that. The comments I have seen were that there is no physical evidence for the existence of God, not that God does not exist. I have said, and I have seen other people say, that Belief in God is a matter of Faith not physical evidence. That's a different argument.

What a person believes and what they know--based on evidence from the natural world-- are two different things. Sometimes people speaking of "knowing in their heart," or they use "know" as a synonym for "belief," and that can be confusing in these discussions. I would say of myself that I do not know about God in both senses of the word. But my understanding is that many Christians would say that they know God exists, by which they mean that they believe passionately in their heart that He exists and feel deeply that they have communicated with God, not that they could prove it in a court of law or the pages of a scientific journal.

In my mind, if we Could prove the existence of God, then belief would not longer be a matter of Faith and something would be lost. Or at least that's my understanding.

Of course not, but I can't receive communion, it's not allowed, I've never received communion in a Catholic church. Still the old feelings, the feeling of not being accepted, not fitting in.

It was a relief when the service was over.

I find it strange that even after all this time the church can still bring back all the negative feelings I had as a child. I know it was my imagination, but while we were there today, I felt like every eye was on me and that they were all secretly saying "you don't belong, get out". But I knew all the words, knew all the motions, but no matter what I still don't belong.

Wow! I went to my niece's big Catholic wedding a few years ago and I felt exactly the same. I would not dream of receiving communion. To me, that's a big deal. I felt the whole time that I did not belong. I love beautiful churches, but I never feel that I belong in one.

Can we see eye to eye in the religions we subscribe to(or lack of religion)?

NO,look at this thread and see how idealists believe and cause arguments to arise?

KBC

I hope you return. I am interested in your thoughts and feelings and I think others here are too.
Asking

Alty,

I have broken almost every 10 commandment... I was going to put a lol in there but truth? It ain't funny. No. you don't go to hell for it... no one could keep the Law perfectly except Jesus and he took our place and punishment. That is the gospel or the good news.

Alty, I would also like to say that I think I DO understand a little what you believe. I understand that you believe in God and even MY GOD. You just don't believe that the way YOU SEE he is portrayed in the Bible.. or by Christians is his true character. You see him as personable and loving, forgiving and not at all intolerant ( for lack of a better word) to any path that is taken to get to him. Am I right or am I all washed up?

No. The commandments are guides to teach us the right thing to do. The center of each is love but God knows we humans don't always understand how to give unconditional love, so the commandments are like Mom would say to her young kids, "Don't do this" and "Don't do that." We don't hear a lot about unconditional love until we meet Jesus in the New Testament (although there's lots of it in the Old Testament -- you just have to look a little harder for it most of the time).


No. The statues are reminders of Bible stories. In fact, in the medieval church, because parishioners didn't know how to read, there was lots of statuary and stained glass windows. The priest or minister would point to various objects and pictures to help people understand, to illustrate his sermon or homily. The statues aren't there to be worshipped. They are a learning tool.

My church has a huge stained glass window behind the altar. The center is a picture of Jesus the Good Shepherd with several sheep at his feet. The pastor might preach about Jesus as our shepherd and that we are his sheep, and what that all means. All around on that same picture window are small groups of people and things from various Bible stories--Adam and Eve in the Garden, the 12 apostles, Noah's ark, and many other scenes taken from the Bible. Our pastor said he can tell the entire story of the Bible and salvation by walking from one side of this huge window to the other.

Hmmm? There are so many pictures and types of Jesus in the Old testament. There are even types of the Lord and the Church... i.e. Isaac and Rebeckah. We aren't to teke verses out of context... but surely we can see the plan of salvation all through the Bible.. genesis all the way to revelation. The problem with Christains to day and I HARP on this I know... it they do not know how to rightly divide to Word of God. It becomes a mess and then we fight amongst ourselves and unbelievers watch and want no part of it. Who can blame them?

hmmm? there are so many pictures and types of Jesus in the Old testament. There are even types of the Lord and the Church...i.e. Isaac and Rebeckah. We aren't to teke verses out of context...but surely we can see the plan of salvation all thru the Bible..genesis all the way to revelation. The problem with Christains to day and I HARP on this i know...it they do not know how to rightly divide to Word of God. It becomes a mess and then we fight amongst ourselves and unbelievers watch and want no part of it. Who can blame them?

I like the sense of this paragraph. But I don't understand one part. Is there a typo here, because I didn't understand:
" The problem with Christains to day[ ]... it they do not know how to rightly divide to Word of God. "

Just want to make sure I understood. Thanks!

hmmm? there are so many pictures and types of Jesus in the Old testament. There are even types of the Lord and the Church...i.e. Isaac and Rebeckah. We aren't to teke verses out of context...but surely we can see the plan of salvation all thru the Bible..genesis all the way to revelation. The problem with Christains to day and I HARP on this i know...it they do not know how to rightly divide to Word of God. It becomes a mess and then we fight amongst ourselves and unbelievers watch and want no part of it. Who can blame them?
My point was to explain why there are stained glass windows and so many other symbolic objects in a church, whether it be Christian or Jewish. Even the absence of them in, say, the Christian Science church means something.

I don't know what point you are trying to make with regard to my post. It seems to have nothing to do with your conclusion.

Alty,

I have broken almost every 10 commandment...I was gonna put a lol in there but truth? it ain't funny. No. you don't go to hell for it...no one could keep the Law perfectly except Jesus and he took our place and punishment. That is the gospel or the good news.

Alty, I would also like to say that i think I DO understand a little what you believe. I understand that you believe in God and even MY GOD. you just don't believe that the way YOU SEE he is portrayed in the Bible..or by Christians is his true character. You see him as personable and loving, forgiving and not at all intolerant ( for lack of a better word) to any path that is taken to get to him. am i right or am i all washed up?

ClassyT, you're not all washed up. :)

I haven't ever been able to put into words my belief in a way that others would completely understand. I say I'm a Deist because that's the closest actual term for what I believe, but it's not 100% accurate. At least being a Deist gives me a group to belong to (not that I need a group) because for a long time I felt very much alone in my beliefs and couldn't accurately describe them.

The only part I don't really agree with is that I believe that it doesn't matter what path we take to get to him. You see, I don't think that God would punish anyone, even those who never accept Him.

I look upon God as the parent of us all. We are all his children. If one of my children does something to upset me, I won't disown him/her, I won't cut off all communication and pretend he/she doesn't exist. I would love that child anyway.

So, if God exists, if he is the father of us all, then I don't think that he'd punish any one of us, even if we don't believe in Him.

I really just believe that you have to be the best person you can be. Be kind to your fellow man. Think of others, not just yourself. Those are the things I think that God looks at in the end, those are the things that are important. Of course we all sin, we're human after all, but asking for forgiveness isn't enough, especially if you continue to commit the same sin over and over again.

Does any of this make sense or am I just babbling? ;)

Wow! I went to my niece's big Catholic wedding a few years ago and I felt exactly the same. I would not dream of receiving communion. To me, that's a big deal. I felt the whole time that I did not belong. I love beautiful churches, but I never feel that I belong in one.


I'm originally from Germany and I have to say, Germany has some of the oldest most beautiful churches around. The architecture, the use of space, everything is just breathtaking.

The last time I was in Germany was in 2001. My Mom died three days after we arrived. Going to see her family was her final wish, she made the trip but unfortunately died before she got to see anyone.

We went to Rothernburg ob der Tauber (the town I was born in) and went to the church there. It truly is a beautiful church. I lit a candle for both my father and mother while I was there.

I love to visit the old churches, I just don't feel comfortable going to a service in one. It's not for me, never will be.

No. The commandments are guides to teach us the right thing to do.

Yes, but according to Romans 3:23 - no one but Jesus has ever followed them. The purpose of the law is given in Galatians 3:

Gal 3:19-25
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

Yes. I would say so. I don't believe anyone should say to you that there is absolutely no God, because (1) it's dismissive and unkind and (2) no one can ever know that.

I agree that no one can ever know it, but I am not offended because someone disagrees. What I would like though, is that when they do disagree, if they would validate their claims, or identify it as their opinion.


The comments I have seen were that there is no physical evidence for the existence of God, not that God does not exist. I have said, and I have seen other people say, that Belief in God is a matter of Faith not physical evidence. That's a different argument.

There is a great deal of evidence. Some folk just reject it out of hand.

So, if God exists, if he is the father of us all, then I don't think that he'd punish any one of us, even if we don't believe in Him.

As a parent, are you saying that you NEVER punish any of your children?

I like the sense of this paragraph. But I don't understand one part. Is there a typo here, because i didn't understand:
" The problem with Christains to day[ ]...it they do not know how to rightly divide to Word of God. "

Just want to make sure I understood. Thanks!

Yep.. typo... I'm horrible with typing.. the problem with christians today IS they do not know... and so and so forth. Sorry :(

yep..typo....i'm horrible with typing..the problem with christians today IS they do not know.....and so and and so forth. sorry :(
Please retype the ENTIRE sentence!! It still doesn't make sense.

Please retype the ENTIRE sentence!!! It still doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense to me.

It makes perfect sense to me.
"The problem with Christains to day[ ]... is they do not know how to rightly divide to Word of God."

No, look.

I said you shouldn't insist there IS a god for a fact. Just simply say you BELIEVE there is a god. What's wrong with saying you believe, it is a belief anyway. You don't need to annoy atheists by saying YES THERE IS A GOD YES FOR SURE FOR FACT THERE ISSS!! Say you believe, like they believe there isn't. Kayyy?

Yes, but according to Romans 3:23 - no one but Jesus has ever followed them.
Dr. Phil said that "yes, but" equals "no."

We haven't gotten to that point (your Bible proof) yet, Tom. Please go with the flow.

"The problem with Christains to day[ ]...is they do not know how to rightly divide to Word of God."

She was making reference to this passage:

2 Tim 2:15
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
NKJV

I am surprised that you are having such difficulty with it.

Dr. Phil said that "yes, but" equals "no."

Follow Dr. Phil, if you wish and let me know in eternity how that works for you.

I said you shouldn't insist there IS a god for a fact.

The truth is that there IS a God - and YES that is a FACT!

Please everyone, let's not become argumentative, I will ask that this thread be closed if that continues. Please, let's continue to respect eachothers beliefs. In order to do that we must admit that they are just beliefs, not fact.

Until you show actual proof that God exists without a doubt then you cannot claim that it is a fact that he exists. You can say that you believe God exists.

If God was a fact that everyone would believe. It's a fact that dogs exist, there's proof, no one doubts the existence of dogs. So, if there was proof of God no one would doubt His existence either. It's just common sense.


As a parent, are you saying that you NEVER punish any of your children?

Tom,

Of course I punish them, but I would never condemn them to hell for not following my wishes. Don't you see the difference?

She was making reference to this passage:

2 Tim 2:15
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
NKJV

I am surprised that you are having such difficulty with it.

What does it mean to divide a word? I assume this is not about dividing it into syllables!

Please everyone, let's not become argumentative, I will ask that this thread be closed if that continues. Please, let's continue to respect eachothers beliefs. In order to do that we must admit that they are just beliefs, not fact.

No, I will not deny the truth of my God.


Tom,

Of course I punish them, but I would never condemn them to hell for not following my wishes. Don't you see the difference?

God did not condemn anyone to hell for eternity. It was their choice. Do you know why hell exists? It was created not for men and women but for Satan and the demons:

Matt 25:41-42
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
NKJV

Why did God do this? Because Satan and his demons were deceiving men and women to reject Him and to join Satan in his path to destruction. Hell was created to punish Satan and the demons for the evikl that they were doing to mankind. Thus hell was an eternal punishment in defence of us.

What did God actually do. Condemn men and women? No!

John 3:17-20
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
NKJV

So God chose to come to earth as a man in order to die on the cross so that men, while in rebellion to Him, might yet have a way to avoid the consequences of their own decision.

What does it mean to divide a word? I assume this is not about dividing it into syllables!

Not a word, but the word of God - the Bible.

It is a term that means to dissect, examine, and study.

John 3:17-20
. . .18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed . . .[/I]

No disrespect, but this is what my ex used to say to me, that I had to accept everything he said on faith. And you know how bad at that I am. :)

Some people are designed for worship and taking things on faith, others not.

No disrespect, but this is what my ex used to say to me, that I had to accept everything he said on faith. And you know how bad at that I am. :)

Some people are designed for worship and taking things on faith, others not.

So why do you reject the Bible without a thorough examine of the facts?

Christianity is not a blind faith, but a faith based on the truth.

I agree Asking. Accepting something on faith isn't easy, we as humans want proof.

I'm perfectly aware that my belief in God is just that, a belief. I have no proof whatsoever that he exists, so how can I fault people who choose not to believe in him?

If there was proof then of course everyone would believe. That's why I know there isn't any proof. For people to refuse God if there was proof of his existence, well that would be ridiculous.

So, until there is proof we can only claim that we believe in God, that it is faith based, not fact based.

If there was proof then of course everyone would believe. That's why I know there isn't any proof. For people to refuse God if there was proof of his existence, well that would be ridiculous.

This argument is based upon a false premise. The earth is known to be round, and yet we have the flat earth society. We know that man has landed on the moon, yet check on internet and you will find thousands who think that it is a hoax. Evidence of the truth does not prevent people from rejecting the truth.

The truth is that there is evidence for God and for the truth of Christianity and yet many reject it.

But why reject it? Is it that hard to find? Is it that hard to understand?

I do agree that there is proof of many things that people still don't believe in. But they're all things we cannot see with our own eyes.

Unless you went to the moon, you have no real proof that man has ever landed there, you have to take others word for it.

Unless you've seen the earth from a distance and know that it's round, you have to take others words for it.

I've seen pictures of what people claim was big foot. I've never seen big foot myself, so I have to take their word for it.

So, I guess it all comes down to how much you trust the people telling your these things. How much your trust the evidence provided.

For example, the bigfoot picture. Well it's a picture, so one would think that's pretty substantial proof. But pictures can be altered. Pictures can be faked, it could be a guy in a big foot costume. So I don't have a lot of reason to believe that picture. But if I saw bigfoot for myself, well then of course I'd believe.

It's the same with God. Some people claim to have proof of his existence. But how much do you trust the source of that proof. Could the proof be faked or altered in order to make it more real?

It's hard to prove God. What is proof for some is just a big foot picture to others.

But why reject it? Is it that hard to find? Is it that hard to understand?

People reject the truth for many reasons. Some refuse to even consider the evidence. Other find the truth just too hard to accept.


I do agree that there is proof of many things that people still don't believe in. But they're all things we cannot see with our own eyes.

We had a thread of over 500 messages discussing evidence for God that can be seen with your own eyes.


Unless you went to the moon, you have no real proof that man has ever landed there, you have to take others word for it.

Not true. There is evidence that can be seen from earth with the right equipment. There is a mirror on the surface intended to reflect laser beams, and that can be detected by many sites. Now, you are left with accepting that a perfect mirror appears naturally, or that man made it to the moon.


It's the same with God. Some people claim to have proof of his existence. But how much do you trust the source of that proof. Could the proof be faked or altered in order to make it more real?

The evidence that I speak of cannot be faked. Some of it is found in nature itself.

An interesting related article:

Children are born believers in God, academic claims - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html)

An interesting related article:
"He says that young children have faith even when they have not been taught about it by family or at school, and argues that even those raised alone on a desert island would come to believe in God."

As I said earlier, the Texas Indians believed in God, even before the Franciscan missionaries arrived. The missionaries worked with the Indians' own experience of God and expanded on that.

I agree Asking. Accepting something on faith isn't easy, we as humans want proof.

I saw somewhere on the board where you said that you live near Edmonton. You should have come to our conference on Nov 15th in Lacombe. Two members of this site were speaking at the conference. You might have gotten some of your questions regarding our beliefs and the evidence for Christianity answered in person.

If there was proof then of course everyone would believe. That's why I know there isn't any proof. For people to refuse God if there was proof of his existence, well that would be ridiculous.

So, until there is proof we can only claim that we believe in God, that it is faith based, not fact based.

This argument appeals to the romantic in me.

My children believe in God. In fact, if you ask my 6 year old daughter, "who made you so special" her answer will be "God did". I like to think I had a hand in it too. ;)

My children have never been to church, I've never read the bible to them, heck, I don't think they'd know what the bible is if they saw it. To them it would just be a book.

They know about God, they know about Jesus. We have two manger scenes that we put up every year for Christmas. One is very old, older than me, it belonged to my parents and of course it was passed down to me when they died. It's a very simple set, beautiful, but the paint is starting to fade, the manger itself needs a bit of repair, but I put it up with pride every year. I love that set.

The little baby jesus figure is not attached to his little bed. The bed is filled with straw and a bit of down. Every year the kids careful fluff up the down and then both of them put the figurine in it's bed. They know that Christmas is the Christian celebration of the day Jesus was born. So yes, I do teach my children about God. Is that not the same Gos as the Christian God?

I just wanted to share that. I think a lot of Christians have gotten the impression that I pray to a different God, just because I don't adhere to the bible or organized relgion.

My beliefs are not so different, the biggest difference is, I accept others beliefs, I have no need or desire to force them to see my way. I don't believe their souls are in danger if they don't believe in God. I see the person for who they are, not what they are or what they believe in.

So yes, I do teach my children about God. Is that not the same Gos as the Christian God?

What is it that the know about Jesus? What do they know about the gospel? Here is what scripture says if Jesus is separate from what the Bible says:

2 John 7-11
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
NKJV

The doctrine is the gospel given in scripture. Further, just because one uses the name of Jesus, a Jesus who does not come with the gospel is a concern. Again, what does scripture say:

2 Cor 11:1-4
11:1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly--and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!
NKJV

Gal 1:6-10
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
NKJV

So scripture is clear that a Jesus who comes with a different gospel is not the same Jesus, and scripture is clear that this is not the same Jesus, not the same God.

We cannot separate God from His word.


I just wanted to share that. I think a lot of Christians have gotten the impression that I pray to a different God, just because I don't adhere to the bible or organized relgion.

Organized religion has nothing to do with it. There are two reason why I believe that you follow a different God:

1) You said that your God was a different God than my God in the last thread where we discussed this.
2) You reject the word of the God that I worship.

(for example: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/what-truth-277387-3.html#post1378882 )

Is that not the same Gos as the Christian God?....I see the person for who they are, not what they are or what they believe in.
Yup, same God! He has blessed you with the capacity for unconditional love.

Yup, same God! He has blessed you with the capacity for unconditional love.

What is the standard that you are using to make the determination that that alone is how we determine who God is?

What is the standard that you are using to make the determination that that alone is how we determine who God is?
Matt. 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits."

Matt. 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits."

First, what do you use to determine what those fruits should look like?

Note that scripture says:

2 John 7-11
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
NKJV

First, what do you use to determine what those fruits should look like?

The Bible.

The Bible.

Then why do you think that one can have the fruit of God by rejecting the Bible?

Then how why do you think that one can have the fruit of God by rejecting the Bible?
Isaiah 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Isaiah 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

So God has given us His word which are from His thoughts. Are you saying that He lied to us in the Bible and He did not mean what He said?

Also note that the context of this passage is speaking of His thoughts being above those who reject Him:

Isa 55:6-7
6 Seek the LORD while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the LORD,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.
NKJV

those who reject Him
We aren't speaking about anyone who has rejected him. 1 Kings 19:12 "And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice."

We aren't speaking about anyone who has rejected him.

That is what we are trying to determine. You pointed to the Bible as the standard, and I am using that standard to see if in fact the fruit matches to what the Bible says that we should expect of someone who is following the same God of the Bible that Christians follow.


1 Kings 19:12 "And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice."

So explain to me how this has anything to do with the topic when read in context.

1 Kings 19:9-18
9 And there he went into a cave, and spent the night in that place; and behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and He said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" 10 So he said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD God of hosts; for the children of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. I alone am left; and they seek to take my life."

11 Then He said, "Go out, and stand on the mountain before the LORD." And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake; 12 and after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice. 13 So it was, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. Suddenly a voice came to him, and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" 14 And he said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD God of hosts; because the children of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. I alone am left; and they seek to take my life." 15 Then the LORD said to him: "Go, return on your way to the Wilderness of Damascus; and when you arrive, anoint Hazael as king over Syria. 16 Also you shall anoint Jehu the son of Nimshi as king over Israel. And Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel Meholah you shall anoint as prophet in your place. 17 It shall be that whoever escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and whoever escapes from the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill. 18 Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."
NKJV

Also, why are you not dealing with the passages that I have brought forward. God's word does not and cannot contradict itself.



Prov 30:5-9
5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

7 Two things I request of You
(Deprive me not before I die):
8 Remove falsehood and lies far from me;
Give me neither poverty nor riches--
Feed me with the food allotted to me;
9 Lest I be full and deny You,
And say, "Who is the LORD?"
NKJV

That is what we are trying to determine.
We are?

You pointed to the Bible as the standard, and I am using that standard to see if in fact the fruit matches to what the Bible says that we should expect of someone who is following the same God of the Bible that Christians follow.
The fruit matches, and the God is the same.

We are?

You forgot?

Check posts 98 and 99, which were in response to the question regarding whether Alty was following the same God as Christians even though she rejects Christianity and the Bible


The fruit matches, and the God is the same.

You are going around in circles.

Note that scripture says. The fruit does not match the test of scripture, which is what you said is the standard, therefore how could it possibly be the same God?

What is it that they know about Jesus? What do they know about the gospel? Here is what scripture says if Jesus is separate from what the Bible says:

2 John 7-11
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
NKJV

The doctrine is the gospel given in scripture. Further, just because one uses the name of Jesus, a Jesus who does not come with the gospel is a concern. Again, what does scripture say:

2 Cor 11:1-4
11:1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly--and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!
NKJV

Gal 1:6-10
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
NKJV

So scripture is clear that a Jesus who comes with a different gospel is not the same Jesus, and scripture is clear that this is not the same Jesus, not the same God.

We cannot separate God from His word.

We cannot separate God from His word.
Please take God out of that tiny box you have him squished in.

Please take God out of that tiny box you have him squished in.

You mean the Bible that He gave us through which to reveal Himself?

Scripture says:

Prov 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
NKJV

By what authority do you tell me to go beyond what He Himself has said?

By what authority do you tell me to go beyond what He Himself has said?
In Matt. 7:1-5 Jesus said, "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

In Matt. 7:1-5 Jesus said, "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

That raises an excellent question. Why did you judge me like this:

"Please take God out of that tiny box you have him squished in."

Scripture says:

Prov 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
NKJV

By what authority do you tell me to go beyond what He Himself has said?

That raises an excellent question. Why did you judge me like this:

"Please take God out of that tiny box you have him squished in."
The judgment would have been: You are an evil person to put God into such a tiny box.
The plea for mercy is: Please take God out of that tiny box you have him squished in.

The judgment would have been: You are an evil person to put God into such a tiny box.
The plea for mercy is: Please take God out of that tiny box you have him squished in.

Either way it is a judgment by claiming that I have put God into a box, and so far you have failed to answer these questions:

Do you mean the Bible that He gave us through which to reveal Himself?

Scripture says:

Prov 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
NKJV

By what authority do you tell me to go beyond what He Himself has said?

Either way it is a judgment by claiming that I have put God into a box
No, it is not, as I explained with lovely examples.

No, it is not, as I explained with lovely examples.

So I am glad that you think that your opinions and writing style are so great. But regardless of how wonderful you think that you and your skills may be, that is not the determination of sound doctrine - God's word is.

By pointing to your own opinions, you have effectively made yourself your standard of truth.

Deut 12:8
8 You shall not at all do as we are doing here today--every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes-
NKJV

So I am glad that you think that your opinions and writing style are so great. But regardless of how wonderful you think that you and your skills may be, that is not the determination of sound doctrine - God's word is.

By pointing to your own opinions, you have effectively made yourself your standard of truth.

Deut 12:8
8 You shall not at all do as we are doing here today--every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes-
NKJV
Insults won't work. Bye.

Insults won't work. Bye.

So when I challenge your opinions with scripture, you consider that an insult? But it is okay for you to falsely accuse and belittle others?

Let's look back at that verse that you quoted before:

Matt 7:1-5
7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye.
NKJV

BTW, why do people always use the "God in a box" argument when they cannot deal with what God's word says? Maybe they do not like the box that God has chosen and revealed for Himself, and which He expects for us also. People want to behave as they want without limits, so they often try to suggest that God places no limits on us, but he does.

He has placed Himself in the box of Holiness and Righteousness. He has placed Himself in the box of truth. He has placed Himself in the box of sound teaching and sound doctrine. He expects us to follow these limitations and includes the box of not following false doctrine, false gospel, and other gods.

In Deuteronomy, we find men who chose to live life without God imposed limits:

Deut 12:8
8 You shall not at all do as we are doing here today--every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes-
NKJV

Please take God out of that tiny box you have him squished in.


I agree Wondergirl. I agree.

Tom, you are so hung up by the bible that you can't see the forest for the trees.

It is possible to worship the same God without following the bible.

No, the bible does not enter into my faith, but I still believe in God, the same God as you. Just because I don't need a book to tell me how to live my life, doesn't mean that I don't know God.

Every time someone tries to talk to you, you pull up a bible scripture.

Tom, it is just a book, it's not the be all end all of everything.

Maybe if you spent more time praying, talking to God, less time reading and quoting scripture, then you'd be able to understand that you and I, we pray to the same God, just in different ways.

Also, an important thing to remember, we're both human, only God can truly know what's in our hearts. So, for you to say that I am wrong and you are right, well, you don't have the power to determine that, only God does.

Tom, you are so hung up by the bible that you can't see the forest for the trees.

It is possible to worship the same God without following the bible.

Really? By what standard do you determine that to be the case? God told us not to go beyond His word and not to go beyond what is written. What standard do you follow that says otherwise?


No, the bible does not enter into my faith, but I still believe in God, the same God as you. Just because I don't need a book to tell me how to live my life, doesn't mean that I don't know God.

How can it be the same God when your God says that you do not need His word, and my God says that you do?


Every time someone tries to talk to you, you pull up a bible scripture.

That is the standard of truth in doctrine that God gave us. What standard do you use?

Tom, it is just a book, it's not the be all end all of everything.


Maybe if you spent more time praying, talking to God, less time reading and quoting scripture, then you'd be able to understand that you and I, we pray to the same God, just in different ways.

You do not even know me. By what means do you claim the authority to judge me and to judge my spiritual life and my walk with God?

It is kind of ironic that you should do so when we look at the subject line:

"Why can't people of different faiths accept one another?"

You seem to feel that it is okay to judge others who disagree with you. By what authority do you claim this right? Or do you think that it is okay for you to judge others but that we cannot disagree with you, and cannot believe what the Bible says because you don't agree with it? There is a word for that attitude. Why can we not simply disagree and discuss respectfully?

Then you said:


So, for you to say that I am wrong and you are right, well, you don't have the power to determine that, only God does.

Consider how that applies to your comments and judgments about me.

You do not even know me. By what means do you claim the authority to judge me and to judge my spiritual life and my walk with God?

OMG, Tom, that's exactly what you are doing to me. So you're allowed, but I'm not? Wow!


You seem to feel that it is okay to judge others who disagree with you. By what authority do you claim this right? Or do you think that it is okay for you to judge others but that we cannot disagree with you, and cannot believe what the Bible says because you don't agree with it?

I never judged you, you judged me, I simply defended myself. I tried to be as kind as I could, you are the one who won't give an inch Tom, but you can't see it, can you? You can disagree with me, of course you can, but why am I not allowed to disagree with you? Why do you always go for the jugular whenever someone has different beliefs than you? It's not me Tom, read back and see, it's you. The sad thing is, you really don't see it.

You feel like you're so much better than everyone else because you read the bible, you know the bible. God would never talk down to people the way you do, he would never judge someone the way you do.

You don't have to agree that I believe in the same God as you do, that's fine, but I have the right to believe that and you cannot take that right away from me. That really makes you mad doesn't it? How dare I claim to know your God. How dare I?

How dare I claim to know your God.
I don't want to know his God, Alty. Be happy you know the real one, the one not confined to a tiny box wrapped in pretty paper and with a big, colorful bow on it. I much prefer your God--the God who seeks out lost causes and comforts scared teenagers and gives a supportive arm to the depressed and anxious.

I don't want to know his God, Alty. Be happy you know the real one, the one not confined to a tiny box wrapped in pretty paper and with a big, colorful bow on it. I much prefer your God--the God who seeks out lost causes and comforts scared teenagers and gives a supportive arm to the depressed and anxious.

Big hug to you Wondergirl, big, big hug. :)

More than ever I feel on the right path in my life. God is a part of my life, a very welcome part. It took me a long time to get here, it wasn't an easy path, many times I didn't know if I'd even stay on that path, but I did. I'm comforted by my beliefs.

I truly believe that there's more than one path, and they don't all lead to God. Does that mean that someone took the wrong path? I don't think so, they just took the path that they were meant to take.

Everyone is different and I welcome those differences, they have taught me so much.

The world is always changing, we have to be willing to change with it, or we will get left behind.

I've met so many wonderful people on this site, all of us with different beliefs, different ways of life, but one thing in common, our humanity. It's easy to see the good in people, you just have to be willing to look. I'm glad that I looked, that I opened my eyes. :)

OMG, Tom, that's exactly what you are doing to me. So you're allowed, but I'm not? Wow!

But Alty, I did not judge you. I have simply gone solely by what you told me - nothing more. You judged me based upon my prayer life and other things - things that you know absolutely nothing about. That is what Jesus was referring to when he warned about judging righteously.


You can disagree with me, of course you can, but why am I not allowed to disagree with you?

I will always support your right to disagree and havenever even suggested otherwise. What I do oppose is disrespectful disagreement.


You feel like you're so much better than everyone else because you read the bible, you know the bible.

And you say that you are not judging me. Aklty, why won't you just accept that others can disagree with you? You started this discussion insisting that we accept your beliefs, something that I have never insisted of anyone else. You cannot tell others that they must accept what you want to believe. Disagreement - respectful; disagreement - is always acceptable, but when someone insists that others must accept what they believe, we have entered into the realm of forcing others to deny their own beliefs.


You don't have to agree that I believe in the same God as you do, that's fine, but I have the right to believe that and you cannot take that right away from me.

Certainly you can believe it, but you once told me that my God was hatefilled and evil and was different than yours. Now you want to claim my God, and deny what God said in His word. You cannot have it both ways.


That really makes you mad doesn't it?

It does not make me mad. In fact I feel sorry for those who feel that they must resort to disrespectful tactics to defend their god. I don't know why some folk simply refuse to accept that respectful disagreement is possible.


How dare I claim to know your God. How dare I?

There is nothing that I would like better than for you to know my God.

I don't want to know his God, Alty.

You do admit that you follow a different God than the God of the Bible then.

Tom, I'm going to respectfully ask that you not join into this conversation any more.

The rest of us are discussing our different faiths, our different beliefs, you just continue to try and force your beliefs on others, and that's not what this thread is about.

I can quote you all day, but you will never really understand what I'm saying. We're going around in circles, getting no where, that's not why I started this thread.

It's gotten to the point where it's just you and I arguing back and forth and this thread isn't about either one of us, but everyone who feels like sharing their beliefs.

If you would like to discuss your beliefs in a not confrontational way then I'm more than happy to hear what you have to say. If you want to tell people that they are wrong, that their beliefs are wrong, then please start a thread of your own for that purpose.

Thank you.

You do admit that you follow a different God than the God of the Bible then.
I said I do not want to know your Jonathan Edwards-type God who is stuffed inside that tiny box.

What box?

My then 8 year old son asked me why God made us fart, and my wife, the quicker of us, told him that God has a sense of humor :)













Gp

What box?!
The box that he isn't allowed to fart in because the Bible never mentions that he does that.

Tom, I'm going to respectfully ask that you not join into this conversation any more.

That is not your choice. It is ironic, though, considering the subject line, that you want to stop those who disagree with your beliefs from discussing their beliefs, and make false accusations and personal attacks.

As I said, the door is always open if you decide that you wish to discuss respectfully. If you do not, your option is to put me on ignore. But all, whether you disagree with us or not, have an equal right to discuss our views - including you I might add - if done respectfully. If you cannot handle disagreement, then you may want to consider not challenging the beliefs of others or engaging in topics where disagreement may arise.

Nonetheless, as I said, the door is open and will never close.

Tom

I said I do not want to know your Jonathan Edwards-type God who is stuffed inside that tiny box.

That is your choice. But I do hope that you change your mind before it is too late.

Tom, you aren't discussing, you are trying to prove that your way is the only way, that's not discussion, that's an attempt at conversion. That's not what this thread is about.

If you want to spout your bible verses and put other people down, I prefer that you do it somewhere else. If you wish to discuss the topic then I'm more than willing to do so, but I do not want to argue with you and everything I say falls on deaf ears. I know you will say the same about me, just to incite another argument.

I really don't wish to fight with you and you have proven time and time again that you are incapable of anything but a fight. So I wish to end it now before this thread is closed.

If you wish to share your beliefs, fine, share them, but if you're only here to tell the rest of us how wrong we are to believe what we do, well, I for one don't want to hear it, and I will request that the thread be closed if that continues to happen.

You have a right to your beliefs, by all means, you just refuse to give anyone else the right to their beliefs. Please stop.

If you cannot stop, then please find somewhere else to play.

Tom, I'm going to respectfully ask that you not join into this conversation any more.

The rest of us are discussing our different faiths, our different beliefs, you just continue to try and force your beliefs on others, and that's not what this thread is about.

I can quote you all day, but you will never really understand what I'm saying. We're going around in circles, getting no where, that's not why I started this thread.

It's gotten to the point where it's just you and I arguing back and forth and this thread isn't about either one of us, but everyone who feels like sharing their beliefs.

If you would like to discuss your beliefs in a not confrontational way then I'm more than happy to hear what you have to say. If you want to tell people that they are wrong, that their beliefs are wrong, then please start a thread of your own for that purpose.

Thank you.
Well!! I for one, have been waiting for this to happen:)

This was really really getting to be exactly like all those other threads,Thank you alty,for ending the lost hope fighting and getting back to the Original Idea!

Thank you KBC.

I really just want us all to have a place to share our beliefs, to learn about each other. That's what I intended with this thread, and I'd like to stick to that.

I hope that everyone hasn't been scared off. I would really like to hear from everyone. I truly believe that we can all get along regardless of what we believe, we just have to be willing to listen and understand. We also have to be willing to judge people not on what they believe, but on who they are.

I know we can all do this, we were doing it, so let's continue.

Tom, you aren't discussing, you are trying to prove that your way is the only way, that's not discussion, that's an attempt at conversion.

Alty, Making false accusations gets you nowhere. But it is ronic that you accuse me of that when you demand that we accept your beliefs or get off the thread. That we accept your god, or you call our God evil and hate filled.


If you want to spout your bible verses and put other people down, I prefer that you do it somewhere else.

I'd prefer that you take your abuse somewhere else, if you cannot discuss respectfully.


If you wish to discuss the topic then I'm more than willing to do so,

Then stop the abuse and let's discuss. That is what I have been asking you to do all along.

What box?

I think that she means the box that God put Himself in - you know the limitations that he won't lie, won't sin, won't teach false doctrine, etc...

I truly believe that we can all get along regardless of what we believe, we just have to be willing to listen and understand. We also have to be willing to judge people not on what they believe, but on who they are.

Alty, these are excellent suggestions. I would only add to stick to the topic and don't discuss the person. I think that if you and wondergirl had followed these suggestions rather than getting into the mudslinging, it could have gone along fine.

Can we ALL agree to follow these suggestions now?

Alty, Making false accusations gets you nowhere. But it is ronic that you accuse me of that when you demand that we accept your beliefs or get off the thread. That we accept your god, or you call our God evil and hate filled.

Tom, I never said that you have to get off the thread because you won't accept my beliefs, I'm asking you to leave because I don't want arguments and you aren't capable of anything but arguments. Why do you refuse to stop?


I'd prefer that you take your abuse somewhere else, if you cannot discuss respectfully.

It's my thread Tom. If you have a problem, or want to discuss something, then start your own thread. Please.


Then stop the abuse and let's discuss. That is what I have been asking you to do all along.

I have nothing more to discuss with you, because with you it's never a discussion. I don't think you know the meaning of the word. Please, either be respectful of this thread and everyone on it, or move on.

I will not tolerate this Tom, you are inciting a fight, and I will not fight you any more. I'm done. Do you understand? I have no problem discussing a topic with someone who is actually willing to see someone else's point of view, but you cannot, so there is no discussion. Please respect my wishes, please, move on, find another thread for your fights, I don't welcome them, and I doubt that anyone else does either.

I don't want to close this thread, I think that we can all learn something from each other if we just open our hearts and minds, but you aren't willing to listen to anyone else's beliefs, you only want to promote your own.

You have a right to your belief, I don't deny you that right, but you do not have the right to talk down to others because of their beliefs.

This is the last time I'll ask Tom, please, move on, or stick to the theme of the thread. If you can't do this then let me know and I will close the thread and any hope that we all have at open communication about our beliefs.

I'm done with the fighting, aren't you?

Tom, I never said that you have to get off the thread because you won't accept my beliefs,

Right at the start of this thread you said that you wanted us to accept your beliefs - when we didn't, it went quickly downhill with all sort of abusive attacks ending up with your demands that I leave. Seems clear.


Why do you refuse to stop?

Why do I refuse to stop defending my faith? Why do you refuse to stop defending yours? Why does anyone? Why should anyone? What right do you have to ask or demand anyone to do so?

And more to the point - if you don't like discuss my beliefs, then why don't you stop?


It's my thread Tom. If you have a problem, or want to discuss something, then start your own thread. Please.

It is not your board. The rules of respectful discussion apply to ALL even if you started the thread.


I have nothing more to discuss with you, because with you it's never a discussion.

Fine - that is your choice - so why do you keep discussing? Please, either be respectful of this thread and everyone on it, or move on.


I'm done.

I am glad to hear it. I would dearly love to see this thread get off the personal abuse and back to a respectful discussion.


I don't want to close this thread, I think that we can all learn something from each other if we just open our hearts and minds,

Then why don't you follow that suggestion and let's let the discussion continue respectfully?


You have a right to your belief, I don't deny you that right, but you do not have the right to talk down to others because of their beliefs.

I am tired of your false accusations and abuse, but you don't push me off with abuse. So get over it, and stop the abuse and false accusations.


This is the last time I'll ask Tom

Thanks goodness! I am glad to hear that you are choosing to stop it.


I'm done with the fighting, aren't you?

I haven't started. But I am glad to hear that you are done.

That is your choice. But I do hope that you change your mind before it is too late.
FYI, I spent 2/3 of my life holding on tightly to that tiny box. God gave me the strength to open the box and let him out.

I think that she means the box that God put Himself in - you know the limitations that he won't lie, won't sin, won't teach false doctrine, etc....


You know, you try to lighten the mood, and that's what you get. :confused:


BTW : great job with the apologetics :)












g&p

FYI, I spent 2/3 of my life holding on tightly to that tiny box. God gave me the strength to open the box and let him out.

My God said that He never changes, and I cherish the box that He placed Himself in. Because He so limited Himself by saying that He would never leave us or forsake us, he limited Himself to be ever faithful, He limited Himself to never lie or sin, He limited Himself when He came to earth as a man by humbling Himself even to death on the cross for our sin, He limited Himself to never mislead us with false teachings or false doctrines.

I cherish that box that He placed Himself in.

I could not trust nor worship any other God.

when we didn't,

Who's this we you speak of? I haven't had a problem with anyone but you.


Why do I refuse to stop defending my faith? Why do you refuse to stop defending yours?

This thread isn't about defending your faith, it's about learning others beliefs and learning to accept those beliefs. You said that I expect you to accept my belief, it's worse then that Tom, I expect you to accept everyone's beliefs, that's how we'll truly find peace.


I would dearly love to see this thread get off the personal abuse and back to a respectful discussion.

That's what I want as well, but it obviously not going to happen.


I am tired of your false accusations and abuse, but you don't push me off with abuse

I've never abused you, I've simply asked that you refrain from preaching and pushing your faith on others. This thread is not called "Let Tom tell you that his way is the only way" it's about discussing dfferent beliefs and why we believe what we do. It's about learning something about each other and our faith. It's about accepting each other for who we are, not what we believe. This is not one of your seminars.


I haven't started. But I am glad to hear that you are done.

And with those words I realize that I'm fighting a losing battle, a battle I didn't want to begin with. You won't ever stop will you? You'll just keep coming back over and over again trying to pick a fight.

I'm asking the mods to close the thread, this is not what I had hoped would happen, but I guess I should have expected it.

I'm sorry everyone, I really had high hopes for this thread but I guess we really can't discuss relgion and be civil to one another, I guess it was a pipe dream.

I'm sorry.

Thank you for those who came to share their beliefs, I really enjoyed hearing how your faith came to be. I really appreciate everyone opening a part of their lives so that we could all get to know each other better. I wish it had worked out.

Good bye.

This thread has gotten way off topic and there is too much bickering going on here. Therefore, the thread is closed.