My pastor has been doing a series on end times. About the rapture, the anitchrist, and the 7year tribulation period. He made this comment: "America is now a POST Christian nation". I found that sad and true. He also talked about America in Prophecy and suggested that the "silence is deafening". In other words... the Bible doesn't really speak about America. The only thing we know for sure, is that WE as a nation will no longer be able to protect Israel.. for whatever reason. Therefore the anti-christ comes on the scene and signs a 7 year peace treaty with Israel.

He listed several scenarios for what could have happened to America. We could be attacked for the outside, we could be attacked from the inside. ( we have given up Christianity for the most part. God says righteousness EXALTS a nation. BUT the most likely he felt would be the rapture of the church. There would be an estimated 25-30 million people rapture prior to the tribulation. The effects on American would be caticlysmic. What are you thoughts concerning why America isn't in prohpecy?

He also suggested that the amount of true Christians that would be rapture around the world was really low. He gave statistics of people who actually professed Christianity in other countries. They would be impacted but not nearly like the USA.

I was reading Ezekial 31 over the weekend and God gave me this chapter to be what is/will happen to the USA in the coming months. The moral decay of this nation is so bad now that I fear Gods wrath is upon us and we (as a nation) are deaf to the consequences.
There are several passages referencing the Eagle but nothing definite that I have ever read. And after reading and listening to several scholars on the end times, I also tend to believe that the USA will be relegated to a third world nation and have no bearing on the outcome.
Personally I have been led to pray for this nation like never before in my life.

Well, I agree with you 450donn... this is a POST christian country and you can't leave God out and expect his protection. It is sad to see... I can't imagine MY America in such a state and yet it is all around me.

Just think of Roe V Wade and the consequences of that act. How many Einsteins have we killed in the past 30 years. How many Billie Grahams? God will only wait so long and then he will act. I fear that what we are seeing today is the start of his wrath on this country.
If I am not being too nosy, who is your pastor?

Oh, he isn't anyone famous or anything... he has a church of about 1000... you wouldn't know him.

Whoever he is sounds like you have a good one.
God Bless.

When the bible speaks about the gentiles, america is included. America was also involved in the war that brought about the current nation of israel.
Those who are true christians are abraham's seed(offspring).
Gal 3:29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.
I'm always amazed of the contrast between our society's ways, and the way god wants things to be. But narrow is the way to heaven.
Israel in jesus's time was evil. I'm not sure if you can judge the end times by america's evil, but perhaps the end of america by god's wrath.

when the bible speaks about the gentiles, america is included. america was also involved in the war that brought about the current nation of israel.
those who are true christians are abraham's seed(offspring).
Gal 3:29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.
i'm always amazed of the contrast between our society's ways, and the way god wants things to be. but narrow is the way to heaven.
israel in jesus's time was evil. i'm not sure if you can judge the end times by america's evil, but perhaps the end of america by god's wrath.


Actually as I understand it gentiles are all NON Jews, so in that respect us westerners are talked about. But the specific question as I understood it was, is America specifically talked about in the bible and the end times? And that answer is no, we are not talked about except in a few obscure passages where it talks about a multi headed beast and one of the heads is an Eagles. Which I take to mean the USA. Don't know if I am right or wrong on that issue. I am still waiting for some indepth study of Revelations.

Personally, I believe that God raised up the US to provide the base for world evangelism, primarially because that is the most important function that this country has had, as far as God is concerned. If and when it ceases to do that, then I believe events will remove the US from its position as world leader.

Maybe the present economic situation will eventually lead to that. Remember that it was the economy that caused the fall of the USSR.

At any rate, the focus of end time events will be the Middle East, so it seems reasonable that there will be a major shift in world powers.

As Christians, we look forward to our ultimate redemption, so REJOICE.

All nations (including America) will take part in the tribulation invasion of Israel:
Joel 3:1-3 1For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Ezekiel 39:6 might also be a reference to America. Jonathan Edwards believed those living carelessly in the Isles was America.
And I will send a fire on Magog, Russiaand among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: America?and they shall know that I am the LORD.

There are some who see America in Jeremiah chapters 50-51, and Revelation chapter 18 as references to America.

I am subscribing to this thread, because I think this is a very interesting topic..

I believe that we are in the end times.. this world is so corupt.. and horrid... just look at all the freak weather occurrences, earthquakes, fires.. and so on..

So many of God's warnings of the end times are happening as we speak.. Get ready and make sure your heart is good with God.. I just pray that there is a rapture... but honestly, I don't believe there will be :(

I believe that we are in the '' sixth hour ''! Not only America but the whole world.
Mark 15:33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

This is a '' 3 hour '' period that will lead to the '' death of the human part of Jesus ''.
I do not know how to explain this better , I am sorry!

So, Plonak, you are a post trib? This is really off topic and you might want to start another thread, but please explain why you feel that way?

450donn,

Go for it... talk about it... it is an important topic too because if you don't believe in a pre-trib raprue something must happen other than the rapture to change America as a world power.

I believe that because who is going to preach to all the non believers if we go up?

There is going to be massive confusion, and I really think God wants us to be there preaching God's word... how else will some of the nonbelievers have a chance to be saved if they have no idea what's going on?

There will be many many that will not make it in the first round. How many profess to be Christian on Sunday but Monday through Saturday live like the devil. Those who's hearts are not right will be left. Many of those will realize after it is too late and repent. Most will not survive through the tribulation, but some will because God tells us that during the milenium there will be children born. That is not possible with a raptured body, is it? Not only that, the Jewish nation will still be present in the world. Since most have never accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and savior they will remain because the final battle is fought in Isreal and many of them will take part in that battle.

There will be many many that will not make it in the first round. How many profess to be Christian on Sunday but Monday thru Saturday live like the devil. Those who's hearts are not right will be left. Many of those will realize after it is too late and repent. Most will not survive through the tribulation, but some will because God tells us that during the milenium there will be children born. That is not possible with a raptured body, is it? Not only that, the Jewish nation will still be present in the world. Since most have never accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and savior they will remain because the final battle is fought in Isreal and many of them will take part in that battle.

I couldn't disagree with you more. EVERY Christian will be caught up in the rapture and all those that have rejected the truth of the gospel God is going to send a strong delusion that they will believe a lie. There WILL be believers during the tribulation BUT, they will become believers AFTER the rapture and during the tribulation period. There will be those who do not take the mark of the beast.. their lives are going to be horrible but nevertheless, they will believe.

Exactly what I said in different words. There are those that think they are christians and will be left behind( sorry) that will after the ratpure realize the error of their ways and repent. Some of those will still refuse to accept the truth

I just hope to goodness that there is a rapture.. but honestly it just seems to good to be true.. I think God would want to test EVERYONE.. even the believers..

450donn do you believe we're in the beginning of the tribulation?

450donn do you believe we're in the beginning of the tribulation?

Emphatically NO!
I do not believe we are in the tribulation. However I do firmly believe that what we are witnessing in the world especially the last 90 days or so clearly we are in the end times.
God will only allow the mess we are seeing today to go on for a little while before he says enough is enough. Scriptures tell us that he will not return (rapture the church) until the last person on Earth has had the opportunity he hear the gospel. That has almost happened, especially with the advent of satellite TV.

Exactly what I said in different words. There are those that think they are christians and will be left behind( sorry) that will after the ratpure realize the error of their ways and repent. some of those will still refuse to accept the truth

The problem with that thought is that God says that he is sending a strong delusion to those that have heard the truth and rejected it. So I really think that if they HAVE HEARD the gospel and said.. "NO" there is no hope for them However, there are many people who have not heard the true gospel or have heard and not fully understood. THEY will believe and there will be plenty of people that will be running for their lives during this time. I do not envy them. It will be the worst time EVER. But God always has his few that are out preaching the truth to those and there will be people saved during this horrible time.

I believe that because who is going to preach to all the non believers if we go up?

There is going to be massive confusion, and I really think God wants us to be there preaching God's word... how else will some of the nonbelievers have a chance to be saved if they have no idea what's going on?

There will be people who will get saved and preach the truth. But the BRIDE of Christ will be raptured out of here. Praise the LORD for his mercy on his Church. We are not appointed to wrath and that is exactly what God is going to pour out.. his wrath. It won't be pretty. It is going to be hell on earth.

I agree with cogs on this.
I also believe that when the bible speaks of the world and gentiles that the American continents are included.
I also believe that God helped establish the USA in the manner it was for a specific reason, whatever that was or is.
I also believe that the USA will be a major player in several ways during the last days.
I pray that it will be a positive player in God's eyes and intent when that time comes to pass.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I have not read all the responses here so forgive me if this has been said. But, to answer the initial question "is Americal in end time prophecy". I would direct you to Rev. 12:14. My pastor has also been doing a in depth study of Revelations and he says that these "eagles wings" could be a reference to the US helping Israel flee. Being that our national symbol is a eagle. Just a idea to play with.
God Bless,
Sarah

I really do think we are entering the last seven years.
I also believe the Bible does refer to America but since it is not named as America in the Bible our eyes are not open to it at least not yet. Here are some sites that give different theories on that.
http://www.geocities.com/christian_crusade/

America in Bible Prophecy (http://www.foxven.com/vcmr.html)

America is a Bible Land (http://www.moseshand.com/studies/bibleland.htm)

SarahMVA,
I also believe that American is mentioned in prophesy but not by name.
Fred

Nohelp,

If we were really in the last 7 years.. where is the anitchirist? And where is that 7 year peace treaty? I don't think so. I think we are so close... but after the rapture (think about how many millions of Americans will go) America will no longer be able to protect Israel, therefore she will need the anitchrist help, even if it is a false help.

Fred and Sarah,

I think the fact that America the number one super power is NOT mentioned and that the silence is deafening. If in fact we are mentioned in Revelation, we aren't what we are today. AND I submit this question to you, IF we are mentioned... and WE protect Israel today, Why in the world does the antichrist need to step up and sign a 7 year peace treaty?

classyT,
Well for starters you asked if the US is in the end time prophecy. I gave you a idea on how we might be. No, we would not be the super power we are today. Nobody would be after the rapture and the devistation it would leave. As for Israel and the antichrists peace treaty; this treaty is not between US and Israel it is the peace treaty that presidents have for the last 50 years tried to bring into being. It is a peace treaty between Israel and the rest of the middle east and backed by the antichrist. This treaty will stop anyone from coming agaist Israel. Which will be necessary being that before the tribulation begins Russia will attack Israel. The antichrist will brake this treaty 3.5 years into the tribulation. Which is why Israel will have to flee, and where the eagles wings come in. What are these eagles wings no one knows for sure, but one idea is what I mentioned above.

Sarah,

I understand that the peace treaty is between the middle east and Israel. My point is Where is America? I mean we are protecting her now. I think you are right.. I think the devastation that the rapture brings will leave us no longer a super power. I will look up that verse in Revelation and check it out. Thanks.

Note... sorry if I sounded snippy up there in my first reply.. I wasn't feeling snippy at all but I re read it and thought.. geesh girl you sound snotty. LOL sorry didn't mean to.

ClassyT,
That's OK. I have been accused of being snippy and worse when I never meant to be.

ClassyT,
I have recorded most of my pastors sermons on Revelations. We are about to finish up. We have been studying revelations for over a year every Wednesday. I think you would like the study. I'll try to figure a way to get them to you if you would like to hear them.

classyT.
That is IF, a very big IF, the rapture take place as it is preached and taught in the end of times books which I thing are mostly fiction.
We'll just have to wait and see when the return of Christ Jesus take place and I think that ill be many years from now because so very many people expect it soon.
Jesus said He will come back when people LEAST expect it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT.
That is IF, a very big IF, the rapture take place as it is preached and taught in the end of times books which I thing are mostly fiction.
We'll just have to wait and see when the return of Christ Jesus take place and I think that ill be many years from now because so very many people expect it soon.
Jesus said He will come back when people LEAST expect it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
If you are talking about the book series by Tim Lahay called Left Behind? Then yes they are totally fiction and he says so up front.
Now, IF you do not believe in the rapture of the church? Then I guess you do not have a Bible with the book of Revelations in it? Very few people do not subscribe to the rapture theory. Generally speaking the biggest debate is when the churches departure from the earth will take place. Either before the tribulation? Or during the tribulation, or at the end of the tribulation. Which do you as a practicing Catholic subscribe to? Curious minds want to know these things.

Actually, very few DO subscribe to the rapture theory. It's prominent among fundamentalists, yes, but most others reject it as lacking a sound scriptural basis.

Tell me, where in *Revelation* do you find talk of the rapture?

Fred,

The Church is looking for the rapture or they should be. The world isn't. Take a look around on this site alone... the unbelievers think the rapture is balony. Heck half of Christianity does. Trust me, they aren't expecting it.

450donn,
Yes all eight of my bibles have the book of revelations in them including the 2 versions I have that are the complete bible with the apocrypha.
No where in any of them is the rapture mentioned.
I do not believe in the rapture as it is taught by the fundamentalists.
It is NOT accurately based on Holy Scripture, but is erroneous theology.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Also...
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

adam7gur
Thanks but that is not about any rapture.
It is a vision experienced by John about Jesus being taken to heaven after His resurrection and Jesus being ruler of the earth when His return comes.
Yes some will meet with Him in the clouds at the time of Jesus Christ's return and I believe that modern day media will make it possible for the whole world to witness that ONE time return.
No rapture as it is preached in any of that.
Peace and kindness.
Fred

Fred
I don't see the point of John being in ecstasy and watching visions about things that he has already witnessed with his own eyes , like our Lord's resurrection and Him being received up into heaven.
This vision is about something that is going to happen and not something that has already happened.

Adam7gur,

The bit from Revelation doesn't appear to me to have anything to say about rapture, as it is now typically understood. 1 Thess. 4 is certainly more to the point. But, again, I don't see the rapture here. The claim is that, when the parousia comes (which, note, Paul thought to be imminent), those who are still living will follow those who have died to union with Christ. That's it. We can take comfort in the knowledge that we too will be united to Christ. Nothing about any tribulation, or some people being zapped up and others being left behind, etc.

As to true Americans mostly thinking of themselfs

I'm thinking of myself because I wonder where America fits in in end time prophecy? I am an American. I love my country. I don't get your attitude.

vexation,
What is wrong with wondering what is going on with the US during the tribulation time? This does not mean that we only think of ourselves just because of this one question. Nobody even said it would be a bad thing if we were not a superpower. We just said that we wouldn't be and that would be a drastic change being we have been for so many years and are such a prominent player in world events today. For us to be a prominent player in the world to not being heard of suddenly? That is what Revelations is saying will happen. It would take something big to suddenly make this happen.
It is wrong for you to get on here and display such a attitude.

For those that may not realise it, a large group of Christian denominations do not preach the rapture, they feel it is a "new age" teaching of the newer churches. With Rev being so symbolic, one can read and find what they want there too often.

So for those that believe and teach it, great, but truly understand it is not by any means an accepted teaching in many of the christian churches

Chuck,
By your answer above are you referring to the Catholic Church? The term 'rapture" may be relatively new, but the teaching certainaly goes back to the time that the book of Revelations was written. It could also be argued that the entire bible is symbolic. Jesus himself taught in parables. So that in itself is no reason to discount the book of Revelations. Either the whole Bible is true or it is all false. Your choice!
The following is from the internet dictionary.
"The Rapture is a prophesied event in Christian eschatology, in which Christians are gathered together to participate in the Second Coming of Christ. Christians who have died are to be resurrected to participate in the coming of Christ along with those who are still living at the time of the event.

The primary passage describing the Rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, in which Paul cites "the word of the Lord" about the return of Jesus to gather his saints. Although all Christian denominations believe in Christ's return, there are two primary views regarding its nature:

1. Amillenialists (such as Roman Catholics, and others), Postmillenialists (such as Presbyterians, and others), and historic Premillenialists (such as Calvinistic Baptists, and others) hold that the return of Christ will be a single, public event. All passages regarding the return of Christ, such as Matthew 24:29-31, 1Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 1:7, etc, describe the return of Jesus in the clouds amidst trumpets, angelic activity, heavenly signs, a resurrection, and a gathering of saints. Although some (such as some Amillenialists) take this event to be figurative, rather than literal, these three groups maintain that passages regarding the return of Christ describe a single event, and that the "word of the Lord" cited by Paul in 1Thessalonians 4:15-17 is the Olivet Discourse which Matthew separately describes in Matthew 24:29-31.
2. Dispensationalist Premillenialists (such as many Evangelicals, especially in the USA) hold the return of Christ to be in two stages. 1Thessalonians 4:15-17 is seen to be a preliminary event to the return described in Matthew 24:29-31. Although both describe a return of Jesus in the clouds with angelic activity, trumpets, heavenly signs, and a gathering of the saints, these are seen to be two separate events, the first unseen, and the second public. Dispensationalists are divided, however, on whether the first event comes before a period of Tribulation, or midway through it."

Based on this, I gather that the Roman Catholic Church does not believe in this subject, so my follow-up question has to be,
Since you don't believe it why participate in the discussion about it?

Chuck,

IT was the Apostle Paul that taught the rapture. I don't know how you can get around it. The first century church believed in it AND because this truth was disregarded and John Darby and a few others in the 1800's "revived it" doesn't mean it is new. It was a truth that was lost... I believe.

Adam7gur,

The bit from Revelation doesn't appear to me to have anything to say about rapture, as it is now typically understood. 1 Thess. 4 is certainly more to the point. But, again, I don't see the rapture here. The claim is that, when the parousia comes (which, note, Paul thought to be imminent), those who are still living will follow those who have died to union with Christ. That's it. We can take comfort in the knowledge that we too will be united to Christ. Nothing about any tribulation, or some people being zapped up and others being left behind, etc.

You have every right to believe anything you want to . By saying the parousia comes ,what exactly do you mean , because in Greek parousia means presence.

Classy,
Attached is a pretty good explanation of the "rapture" which seems to enlist a lot of arguments from certain sectors of this community. Enjoy:
Introduction to the Rapture (http://www.religioustolerance.org/rapture1.htm)

And in the NT, "parousia" is used to talk about the coming of the Paraclete--which is to come.

"Either the whole Bible is true or it is all false. Your choice!"

Well, Mk. 1.7 QUOTES John the Baptist as saying that he is not fit to "untie the thong" of Christ's sandals. Mt. 3.11 QUOTES John the Baptist as saying that he is not worthy to "carry" Christ's sandals. Which did he say? The inerrant word of God gives two, different, accounts. It's nit-picky, sure, but one is wrong. Does that make the whole Bible false? Why think that?

"Either the whole Bible is true or it is all false. Your choice!"

Well, Mk. 1.7 QUOTES John the Baptist as saying that he is not fit to "untie the thong" of Christ's sandals. Mt. 3.11 QUOTES John the Baptist as saying that he is not worthy to "carry" Christ's sandals. Which did he say? The inerrant word of God gives two, different, accounts. It's nit-picky, sure, but one is wrong. Does that make the whole Bible false? Why think that?

What difference does it make? Neither is making a theological statement, just relaying how John felt at the time. It is not like some people choosing to ignore large parts of the Bible is it?

450donn,

Yeah, I don't bring this up because I really care which John said--my world isn't about to shatter either way (neither, I suspect will yours). I mention this only to bring out the following: If the Bible is the inerrant word of God, if everything in it is true, than there's a problem if it isn't univocal regarding a statement of fact. In each case we're being given a factual statement--this is what John the Baptist said--but according to Mt. he says "p" and according to Mk. He says "not-p". So they can't both be right; so one of them is wrong; so there is something in the Bible that is false.

Now I'm not about to chuck the Good Book over this, and neither should anyone else. But it might suggest that the Bible didn't just plop out of the heavens as God dictated it. It has a complex history of composition, redaction, transmission, etc. We should be careful how we use it. And so it's a bit reckless, I think, to say that either the whole Bible is true or the whole Bible is false. It's a complex thing, the word of God, and we should treat that way.

The gospels were written by Mathew, mark, luke and john. It is their accounts of what happened. They are all inspired of God and there is a reason for every single word that each of them used. It matters... oh yes it matters VERY much. There are no mistakes... none. But that is for another thread.

Mistakes? Nope. But just like the children's game where you line up a bunch of people and whisper something into the first ones ear. What comes out at the end is never like the original. This is an account from two peoples prospective. It is one of the ways we can use the Word of God to prove what was said is true.

Can't be reckless to say that you must believe the whole WORD OF GOD or not believe it. If you believe that the bible is the inspired word of GOD and was ordained by GOD as such then you MUST believe that everything in it is true. Otherwise you run the risk of falling into the same trap that so many others have. That is instead of believing in the bible, you start to believe something that someone wrote that the bible says. Just look at the Book of Mormon as a classic example. Or for a more conptemporary example how about the koran? There is a lot in there that mimmick's what is taught in the bible, but it is twisted by a man that thought himself a god. Nope, I stand by my statement. You MUST believe all of the bible or none of it. That is what faith is all about is it not? We as Christians read, learn, and talk to others in hopes of understanding what the Bible says. Every religion since it is man made has it's own versions of how to interpert any passage of scriptures. Your views are different then mine and I guess the bottom like is that if we seek the face of God at all times we will find out who was right and who was mislead when Jesus takes his church home.

Since we are talking end-time here, let's look at some questons.

What will start the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy? The rapture, or the signing of the 7 yr peace treaty? Something else?

Who do you view (not by name but by position) as possible candidate for Anti-Christ?

Could the rapture and the signing of the peace treaty be almost simultaneous?

Since we are talking end-time here, let's look at some questons.

What will start the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy? The rapture, or the signing of the 7 yr peace treaty? Something else?I am guessing the signing of the "peace" treaty

Who do you view (not by name but by position) as possible candidate for Anti-Christ?Again my guess at this point in time. either the president of the EU or the head of the UN.

Could the rapture and the signing of the peace treaty be almost simultaneous?
NO, My understanding is that the rapture will be the signal for the Antichrist to be let loose and his rise to power

adam7gur,
Believe it as you wish.
I told you what I believe.
And IT IS concerning the return of Jesus to rule.
That is in the future.
Fred

Since we are talking end-time here, let's look at some questons.

What will start the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy? The rapture, or the signing of the 7 yr peace treaty? Something else?

Who do you view (not by name but by position) as possible candidate for Anti-Christ?

Could the rapture and the signing of the peace treaty be almost simultaneous?

I think it is the peace treaty and the antichrist will be ushered in fairly quickly because of the rapture. Here is a thought and I am curious as to what you all think of it... when a Jewish male married his bride.. he took a whole year off to be with her. What do you think of that? I don't know that it means anything but I was thinking maybe... it could take up to a year before the antichrist comes on the scene. What say you?

I believe from what the Bible teaches that this Anti-Christ MUST come out of the revived Roman Empire. He isn't going to be some American. UGH. I get sick of people saying Obama is the antichrist.. it is silly. HE MUST come from the revived roman empire... that is what Scripture says.

The peace treaty could actually take place pretty darn quickly... we will see. I just thought the jewish marriage and the rapture of the church are totally cool things to study. The 70 th week remember is all about Israel, it has nothing to do with the church. I do not think the church will no who the anti-Christ is by name here on earth.

I am currently thinking that Anti-Christ might be a popular (in Islam) Imam. One who appears moderate enough to deal with Israel and with enough clout with Muslims to stop the constant attacks against Israel. Of course he will come from territory that both Greece and Rome held. Some think from Syria.

I too doubt the Church will be here to see his rise, but might see some early clues.

Something else. The times of the Gentiles has not ended as long as that mosque stands on the temple grounds, so the start of the 70th week might be when Israel gains full control of Jerusalem.

classyT and Galviston1
Interesting conversation between you two.
Of course you know by now that I do not believe in the rapture and the prophesies in the book of Daniel were fulfilled many years ago. The same with the book of Revelation.
I'm going to start worrying that the end of this age is near when the Jews gain control of temple mount and DO start building the third temple of Yahweh.
It will take from 10 years or more to complete that. Back in biblical days it took many times that to build it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I am currently thinking that Anti-Christ might be a popular (in Islam) Imam. One who appears moderate enough to deal with Israel and with enough clout with Muslims to stop the constant attacks against Israel. Of course he will come from territory that both Greece and Rome held. Some think from Syria.

I too doubt the Church will be here to see his rise, but might see some early clues.

Something else. The times of the Gentiles has not ended as long as that mosque stands on the temple grounds, so the start of the 70th week might be when Israel gains full control of Jerusalem.

I think so too. I believe the Anti Christ will be able to make the muslims happy as well . I think the times of the Gentiles won't end till Jesus comes back... what say you? I just finished a study with my family on Daniel... I learned a LOT.. haven't heard "the times of the Gentiles" from anyone but my Father.. he drilled that into us... I enjoyed you saying that.

Fred,

THat's OK, you don't have to believe in the rapture to go.. you little hard head you... lol

AND... the rebuilding of the temple will take place.. maybe after the rapture. Who says it has to take years to build it.?

classyT,
When Jesus returns to this planet the temple must exist not before.
Fred.

I think that the antichrist has to do much more with the Jewish people.Remember that most of them are still waiting for the Messiah,so antichrist's aim is to fool them and convience them that he is the Messiah.The Jews know that the Messiah is a Jew from the house of King David, so they will not believe or trust themselves in no imam's hands!
He is going to be a Jew from the tribe of Judas and of course Judea was under both Roman and Greek ( Byzantine ) power.
I aggree with you Galveston about the time of the Gentiles .
classyT
Very interesting parallelism of marriage/rapture.
I have learned all those years that God works and reveals Himself through parallelism, f.I. the crossing of the sea /rapture , Noah/rapture , Enoch/rapture...
Fred
We don't have to aggree on everything , but I am sure that we both aggree that Jesus Christ is our Saviour,right?
Since we hold on to at least that ,we are brothers!
As for my statement of truth, God as my Father is my religion and the cross is my denomination.Jesus Christ , the Word that became flesh is my Saviour and my obedience to Him is my tradition!I cannot describe that better than simply being a ''Christian''!
As for the differences that we all have let us all allow the Holly Spirit to teach us.You don't believe in the rapture, I do.May the Holly Spirit open our eyes.
Remember.. Mark 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
That is not just for Satan, that goes also for the body of the believers.How can a hand separate itself from the body and stand?How can a foot stand by itself, or an eye, or an ear?
We have to hear what the head says and the head is always Jesus!
I am sorry for being preachy, but honestly I cannot stand watching Satan separating us by doing nothing special.We do this to ourselves and we have to stop it.Satan gathers every little servant that he has right this moment and we are fighting about denominations and stuff.There is only one enemy and the Sword that the Lord has given to us must be turned against him and not against ourselves.The Swords that we have in our hands are truths from the Word of God!Don't point them to a brother , point them to the enemy!
How much more must the Lord wait?Be the army that He wants us to be, be the body that He wants us to be, be the Temple that He wants us to be, be the City that He wants to be.
Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it!
We are people from every corner of the world, can you imagine what an army we could be for our Lord.Can you feel satan's agony and fear and horror for us?He knows what we as God's people are capable of.He knows that we can do ANYTHING through Jesus our Lord and God.
From the place that God has placed us , no matter what that is , stand and fight not against each other but against our Father's enemy!

adam7gur,
I agree with you that we Christians do need to unite.
At last count there are over 2 billion of us in about 30,000 different denominations.
In all of those denominations there is far more to agree on than to disagree.
Some do get over zealous on some points and that is sad. Some actually hate other denominations and that is even more sad.
In my case on the rapture I read the book called "The Rapture Trap" by Dr. Paul Thigpen.
After reading that there is no way I can believe in the rapture but I can and most certain;y do believe that those who are in friendship with Jesus Christ will go to and be with Him.
In fact I know of no one who read that book believes differently than I do concerning that.
You have made some excellent points and I heartily agree with them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

classyT,
When Jesus returns to this planet the temple must exist not before.
Fred.

Absolutely! The jews will be sacrificing when the anti-Christ comes in and sets in the temple proclaiming to be God.

i think so too. I believe the Anti Christ will be able to make the muslims happy as well . I think the times of the Gentiles won't end till Jesus comes back...what say you? I just finished a study with my family on Daniel...i learned a LOT..haven't heard "the times of the Gentiles" from anyone but my Father..he drilled that into us....i enjoyed you saying that.

I just wanted to mention one thing, I know this is the Christianity board,but just wanted to say that Muslims are with Jesus (alaihi salaam) whenever he comes back, so we will surely not be with Anti-Christ,but against him,whenever that happens.

Firm,
It is my sincerest hope that you ARE with Jesus firmbeliever. Thanks for your comments.

Adam,

Got to agree with that. If we could unite on what we do believe we could be stronger. IN all honesty it doesn't bother me that Fred and others don't believe in the rapture. IT is what it is though.

You know Adam I grew up being taught that the anit christ will actually be a JEW. I don't believe that anymore. I think the false prophet will be though. What do you think?

I believe that the antichrist will be a Jew because he has to convience the Jewish people that he is the Christ , the Messiah.I don't see how the Jewish people will trust a non Jew to hand him such authourity.I could be mistaken though, these are just my thoughts.What makes you believe that he is not going to be a Jew?

I am sort of on the record as a rapture-denier, but I don't mean to get into that issue here. I am confused about something, though, and I wonder if you would be kind enough to help me to understand where you're coming from on a particular point:

Christ himself denied knowing when the return would come, and Paul tells us that it will come as a thief in the night. So why do you guys think that anyone is in a position to make any predictions at all about, say, whether the false prophet will be Jewish or Muslim, whether the UN or the U.S. will give rise to the antichrist, etc.--you know the detailed stuff?

I promise, this isn't an attempt to change the topic or to pick on your view. I'm just not sure I get where you're coming from on this. Could you help me understand this better?

I agree with Adam.
I do believe the anti-christ will be a Jew.
Fred

Akoue
Nobody is in a place to say when or who but the Lord Himself said... Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

That's all my friend , nothing more.Anyone who gives a name or a date is mislead and we should not pay attention to that.But we , as the Lord suggested have to see the signs and I am not talking superfiscial things here just like He did not talk about superfiscial things either.He talked about ''the fig tree'' which is something that we can see, feel, touch , observe!
Akoue, of course you know that akoue means in Greek hear !Don't you hear what is going on?I am not saying that you should hear all those voices in the air saying this and that, I am trying to explain that we should all hear what the Lord is crying out , without perhaps using a single word but throwing the ''fig tree'' in our face so that we can realize that ''the summer is near''!
Hope I helped!

Adam,

Thanks, that helped a bit. I'm still a little confused about the specificity of some of the speculation going on, but I don't want to completely derail your discussion. I'll save further questions for another occasion.

The signs of Jesus coming have been coming for 2000 years.
The fact is that it is sooner now than 2000 years ago.
But all of the prophesies have NOT been fulfilled.
Like I have said,
I'll worry about the second coming AFTER the third temple is built.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I just wanted to mention one thing, I know this is the Christianity board,but just wanted to say that Muslims are with Jesus (alaihi salaam) whenever he comes back, so we will surely not be with Anti-Christ,but against him,whenever that happens.

As strange as it seems on the surface, of those remaining on Earth during the Great Tribulation, Anti-Christ will have the most problems with Christians, Jews, and Muslims because they are people of "the book", that is, they have a core value of beliefs that they will not give up. And yes, there will be Christians here then. A multitude will be saved during the Great Tribulation.

I believe that the antichrist will be a Jew because he has to convience the Jewish people that he is the Christ , the Messiah.I don't see how the Jewish people will trust a non Jew to hand him such authourity.I could be mistaken though, these are just my thoughts.What makes you believe that he is not going to be a Jew?

I've got to think about that some more. Do you have any scriptures that show that the Jews will actually believe that Anti-Christ is one of them? He will sit in the Temple, but that will be by conquest, I think.

And to Fred, how can you think the prophecies of Daniel are already fulfilled? Daniel's prophecies on the end-time deal with the 70th week which IS the Great Tribulation period. Once that week starts there is a time line that anyone can follow on the calendar.

I just think that Daniel being an old testament book refers to things that took place before the birth of Jesus.
I might be wrong but the 70 weeks took place during the Roman occupation.
Fred.

Galveston1
As I wrote these are just my thoughts , a product of logic which is also God given.
God has done everything through the Jewish people , Satan will copy that because his job is to present himself as god.He uses always a bit of truth for a bait just as he did with Jesus in the desert.He used the Word of God to tempt Him, he did not used something that was a complete lie.Satan knows that God uses the Jewish people through history for His will, so my thought is that Satan will do the same.
Antichrist does not mean the opposite of Christ , but in Christ's place.In other words the antichrist is not going to do the exact opposite of what Jesus did but he will try to take our Lord's place.He knows the Scriptures very well, he knows that Jesus had to come through the Jewish people and that everything starts through the Jewish people , so he is going to come through the same path!Still my thoughts, nothing more!

adam7gur,
Your thoughts on that subject make a lot of sense.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

What amazes me is all the people who refuse to believe god is real . In fact children today as young as 11 and 12 years old are atheists and proclaim its cool to hate christianity . In fact that has become the new hip thing is to be an atheist .

Not only that other things have changed in the world look at homosexuality now compared to 10 years ago. No one was for it most people kept quite. Now its made to look like a hip there are a lot of kids who upload these emo videos on YouTube of themselves youn boys 14 or 15 years old kissing another young boy.
Not only that your starting to have states pass the gay marriage law allowing same sex couples to marry.

Nowadays every where you look you see guys holding guys hands, gay pride parades.

And women have really come out. More then men.

Amd you got men coming out claiming there god or christ. Christ said near the end many will claim to be him.

There's one guy who claims to be jesus and has over a million followers who believe him. And he had his followers get 666 tatoos . Now he's changed his name to the antichrist and says put your faith on jesus after the cross and that's me. He has a huge following in the miami Florida area. There's plenty of news clips about him on YouTube.

The world is getting extremely wicked . Like a huge Sodom and Gomorrah . If you notice the world hasn't always been like it is now. It was wicked. But not this wicked...

Anyway I posted a topic irvin baxter. Go to it and go to his site from there if you want to really know all the bible prophecys

ironsheik7,
Yes the world is a wicked place in many ways.
It is also a good place in many ways, and thank God for being the source of all good and love.
May it triumph over the evil, Please Lord.
Help us accomplish that in your holy name,
Fred

classyT and Galviston1
Interesting conversation between you two.
Of course you know by now that I do not believe in the rapture and the the prophesies in the book of Daniel were fulfilled many years ago. The same with the book of Revelation.
I'm going to start worrying that the end of this age is near when the Jews gain control of temple mount and DO start building the third temple of Yahweh.
It will take from 10 years or more to complete that. Back in biblical days it took many times that to build it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

The Scripture is CLEAR... the 69th week ended when the Jews rejected Jesus. Read Daniel... the 69 week is when the messiah is cut off. GODis NO longer dealing with Israel as a nation... this is the period of GRACE. The 70th week picks the day the antichrists signs a peace treaty. It will NOT take them 10 years to build the temple. I have heard reports they have building supplies hidden and ready to go. TRUST me. It is going to happen and SOON. ( naaah I really didn't think you were going to trust ME, after ALL, you read the book that said there will be NO rapture and you couldn't possibly be wrong ) :D

You don't see America in end time prophecy because there is no America. Amazing but true. We and Israel are going to be anhilalated by all of the other countries we have swindled all these years.
The chickens are coming home to roost.

You don't see America in end time prophecy because there is no America. Amazing but true. We and Israel are going to be anhilalated by all of the other countries we have swindled all these years.
The chickens are comming home to roost.

no... I KNOW Israel will be here and God will protect her until Jesus comes back. America? You could be right.. what is it that Iran calls us..? Oh yeah... THE GREAT SATAN!

There are two Israels spoken of in the bible. Natural and Spiritual. Don't confuse the two.
America is the last Babylon. Burnt to hell and wiped off the face of the earth. Me thinks we took a wrong turn.

magprob,

Naah. There is only one Israel.

classyT,
The great Satan Iran and others have spoken of is the nation that has given more of itself in money, blood and other help that any nation in the history of this planet.
I am surprise that anyone here thinks that the USA is evil through and through and to side with those who call it the great Satan.
Yes the USA has made mistakes over the years but all others have done so also.
Making some mistakes does not make the entire nation evil.
For shame.
Fred

The Christians of America have given blood and money to help others Fred, that is true, but, Christians are not in control any longer. America is drifting farther and faster from its Christian roots.The American Government are becoming Draconian and moving us to a one world government and one world religion. IT IS WORSE THAN YOU REALLY KNOW.

FRED!

You misunderstood me! I love America. I just think that the Lord is silent about her in propehcy. I don't think she is the GREAT SATAN... Iran said it.. perhaps Iran nuked us. I don't think they will but that is what I meant.

Too many "Christians" think they will go to hell if the are caught being unpatriotic. They believe our "leaders" really are Christian. Too many "Christains" are just plain ole BRAINWASHED! They are being led down the primrose path... straight to hell.

Yes America has been drifting more to the secular side of faith.
But Many countries in Europe have been doing so much more than has the USA.
What we Christians need to do is work and pray to reduce the trend here.
I pray for my country and its leaders every day.
Do you?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Do I? Don't try to demonize me Fred. The Holier than thou thang ain't going to work on me. I love America and I want it to be a Christian nation. The dark forces have taken her over Fred. You know it. I know it. America has been hijacked years ago and now prophecy will play out. The secret actors behind the scenes have dragged us all down into it. Just get ready.

magprob,
I'm not trying to demonize anyone.
I do believe there are drake forces at work in the USA and have been I=sibce it was colonies. The same with other nations.
BUT
I do not believe they are in complete control.
I do believe that this country came into existence via the grace of God and His will.
I do not believe He will let it go to hell, so to speak.
The vast majority of the USA believe in God.
I believe that God will work through them for the betterment of the country.
I also believe in the power of positive thinking.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Somewhere in this discussion, it would be very good to carefully study the first 3 chapters of Revelation, the letters to the 7 churches of Asia. These show what conditions Jesus either approves or disapproves, and we need to check where we fit into those parameters. Whether we get to take part in the rapture or not hinges on what our spiritual condition is at that moment.

Notice that what a church WAS is not important. What is important is what a church is NOW. The only criticisism of the church at Ephesus was that it had left its first love, and unless they repented and repeated their first works, Jesus would remove their candlestick; they could no longer represent Him.

Thread went down hill once again

Closed