Hello:

Okee, doakee. Should we bail out the big three automakers like we did the banks, and like we did to AIG? Who's next? What happens if we don't? What happens if we DO?

excon

Sure, why not? Didn't we bail out Chrysler a while back?

It's not up to Congress to give loans to the private sector (but don't tell THEM that)...

All they need/have to do is close some of their foreign plants and stop making such ridiculously expensive cars/vehicles/trucks/suv's.

It seems that more foreign cars are manufactured in the US and more US cars are manufactured elsewhere. What's wrong with that picture? I don't know. I'm just a little old lady.

It might be healthier for all for them to go bankrupt, reorganize and come back better and smarter, but that is just my thought. Who knows for sure?
One thing we do know. They need to do some re-thinking at least, because they are not doing a good job of competing presently.

My opinion has not changed since I responded to this question (#4)
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/gm-value-free-fall-279969.html

The bail-out was a big lie as we predicted .
We were told that if we invested in the "toxicpaper" of the banks that we would buy low /sell high. But the Congressional idiots gave Paulson a blank check and he decided that it would be better to socialize the banking industry by using our money to purchase a seat on the managing boards. Hey ! Why Not ? It worked out so well with Fannie and Freddie ! Meanwhile not a single "toxic asset" was purchased.

As you recall ;Fannie and Freddie became placed where out of work politicians and their cronies could hang out for a year or so plundering the bottom line and cooking the books while making multiple 7 figure incomes.
Imagine the mischief they could do managing the big 3!!

On same thred (#6) I pointed out the best example of what would probably happen when the government were to bail out the auto industry. Maybe it is inevidible that TATA Motors of India eventually picks up the scraps of GM anyway. But a bailout would only prolong the agony.

The Chrysler bail out is not really a good example. It is still a basket case and only reemerged a shell of what it once was.It eventually was purchased by Daimler-Benz AG.

There are already instruments available to the big 3 .It is called bankruptsy protection. Companies still operate under it ;but it gives them the ability to restructure.

But if the UAW does not cooperate,then all bets are off. Already they indicated over the weekend that they intend to cash in their IOUs with the Democrats and demand tax payer money to protect the "Job Banks" .

Jobs bank programs -- 12,000 paid not to work - 10/17/05 (http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm)

Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.

"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat."

Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union.

Lol ;yet the head of the UAW, Ron Gettelfinger,claims workers have already conceded enough .Bankruptsy will help make the union realize that maintaining pay and benefits well above its competitors at Toyota, Honda and others is not the way to regain market share.
This week we will see how beholden the Democrats are to the UAW. It is already telling that the Dems would schedule a lame duck session just to cater to them.

All they need/have to do is close some of their foreign plants

Ford is profitable selling cars in Europe. As I previously stated it's European cars are state of the art . The S-Max won car of the year. Why won't it sell here ? Because although it runs as clean and fuel efficient as any car on the market ,it cannot pass our rigid crash test standards.
The automakers are going down because they have uncompetitive labor and legacy costs (GM adds $1500 per cost of car for health care of it's employees alone beyond the extra wages compared to $400 per car Toyota and Honda US ) ,and they sell cars nobody wants to buy (it almost completely surrendered the small car market to foreign manufacturers ).

Detroit is not the victim of a downturned economy as UAWs Ron Gettelfinger claims . It has a cancer in it's business model and needs radical surgery.

Congress and Bush already approved $25 billion in loans to the BIG three in September to help them "retool" to meet the new Café standards. Now the BIG three and congress want another $25 billion to help them continue putting out their junk until when and if they ever build their "industry of the future" as Gettelfinger puts it. Why should we?

Why should we use our hard-earned taxpayer dollars to bail out the BIG three? Why should any of money go to pay for the $73 dollar hourly cost of a BIG three worker? Why should my tax dollars help pay for retirement and health care benefits of someone sitting in a job bank playing video games?

Where does it end and what is the quid pro quo for the feds?

Hello again:

It isn't a matter of whether we SHOULD bail 'em out. We're going to. I don't know if there's going to be quid pro quo or if it's just a giveaway. But, it don't make no never mind.

I don't think it's going to stop there either. The belief around the world now, is that we can "stimulate" our way out of this. That's just another word for INFLATE. They even use the word, but say they'll worry about it later...

That's kind of what a junkie says when he's faced with reality too..

There's a price to pay for badly managed company's. It's now a matter of WHO pays the price, and when. And, if we subsidize failure, failure is what we're going to get. Plus, inflation on the scale they're doing now, hasn't been seen since the Wiemar Republic...

Buy gold.

excon

I just want to know where do I get in line?

In The Know: Should The Government Stop Dumping Money Into A Giant Hole? (http://www.theonion.com/content/video/in_the_know_should_the_government)

JnX-D4kkPOQ

Hello again, Steve:

Well, let me the first patriotic American here to throw HIS money in the Great American Money Hole.

excon

If the gov't "bails out" the big 3, will they take supervision over them? If so, the big 3 will then make cars dictated by bureaucrats and eco-nuts. I can tell you right now, THEY WON'T SELL.

That is unless other companies are forbidden to compete, then we can have the equivalent of the that little paper-mache car the East Germans puttered around in.

IF the US gov bails out the big three, part of the deal is that the UAW / the big three's employees and management can ONLY BUY THEIR OWN PRODUCT.

A variation on Ford paying his workers enough to buy his product in the early 1900s.

IF the US gov bails out the big three, part of the deal is that the UAW / the big three's employees and management can ONLY BUY THEIR OWN PRODUCT.

A variation on Ford paying his workers enough to buy his product in the early 1900s.

Lol ;for that matter go to any school yard teachers parking lot. All you see are foreign cars. Why don't their fellow union compadres in the NEA and AFT buy American cars ?

I think instead of a bailout the giver~ment should give any American consumer who buys a new American auto a $5,000 rebate check . OB1 likes to fix the economy from the bottom up .

The big 3 are in a mess for several reasons, I'm sure. One of them is that for many years they built cars that were doing good to run well for 100,000 miles. Then the Japanese started sending cars in that would run 3 times that far.
My grandson had a new Chevy small pickup a few years ago. The front end wore out at about 100,000 mi. so not much has changed.
People will just naturally buy the best product for the money. When the big 3 get that through their corporate heads, they will do better.
I say, let's stop bailing out failures.

BTW, wasn't there a case in history when our government subsidized a buggy whip factory? That was about the time that the automobile appeared on the scene!

Tom, OB1 may be your best name of all time!!

I am looking to buy a new or new to me car very soon. I have always purchased American cars. Part of me wants to "help out" and buy another American car. But I drive about 60 miles a day and MPG is the number one thing on my list and I really can't find an American car that meets My MPG standard's.

It kind of makes me mad that the CEO's of the big 3 all took private jets to go ask for 25 billion dollars!!

It kind of makes me mad that the CEO's of the big 3 all took private jets to go ask for 25 billion dollars!!!!!

I came in here to say the same thing. If you can still fly on and maintain a fleet of private jets, you aren't in as much trouble as you say you are, and no way in hell do you deserve a bailout. Why is something like that "non-negotiable"? :confused:

Big Three CEOs Flew Private Jets to Plead for Public Funds (http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=6285739)

yeah a great PR move!

Spit I would gladly purchase American cars if they were of comparative value. Now everyone tells me that the engineering has caught up and when you buy a car from the big 3 you are buying dependability. I'll take their word for it.

That doesn't address however the point you just made ;that they are still not making cars Americans want. Yeah they captured the SUV ;light truck etc. market but that has not helped them maintain market share.

They have to face a reality . A worker at a Michigan plant does about 25 years and then retires in their 50s with gold plated retirement and health care packages . If this worker lives into the mid- 80s you are talking about as many years retired as were worked. That ratio is not sustainable. Even if they kept market share;with automation the auto industry just doesn't need as many welders as they used to hire. There are not enough workers supporting their "legacy" benefit packages .

If the big 3 moved out of Detroit and started fresh in a "right to work" state they would stand a chance. It's not even an issue of competing with foreign workers... they cannot compete with workers in Tennesse making cars in America .Everything else being equal ;the consumer pays an additional $4000 in costs to subsidize this imbalance.

Rick Wagoner flew in GM's $36 million luxury aircraft to tell members of Congress that the company is burning through cash, asking for $10-12 billion for GM alone. Wagoner's private jet trip to Washington cost his ailing company an estimated $20,000 roundtrip. In comparison, seats on Northwest Airlines 2364 from Detroit to Washington were going online for $288 coach and $837 first class.

Ford CEO Alan Mulally's corporate jet is a perk included for both he and his wife as part of his employment contract along with a $28 million salary last year. Mulally actually lives in Seattle, not Detroit. The company jet takes him home and back on weekends.

If the big 3 moved out of Detroit and started fresh in a "right to work" state they would stand a chance. It's not even an issue of competing with foreign workers ........they cannot compete with workers in Tennesse making cars in America .Everything else being equal ;the consumer pays an additional $4000 in costs to subsidize this imbalance.

I can hear the public outrage now... Given the current market in Detroit, you take the auto industry out of it and relocate to a right-to-work state, that just spells ugly. They probably can't do that anyway; I'm sure the union has a pretty iron-clad agreement, and if they don't, they'd sue the jets off (haha) the companies for relocation to intentionally get rid of the unionized workers. Unions, especially ones that have been around for a long time don't like people messin' with their money...

Rick Wagoner flew in GM's $36 million luxury aircraft to tell members of Congress that the company is burning through cash, asking for $10-12 billion for GM alone. Wagoner's private jet trip to Washington cost his ailing company an estimated $20,000 roundtrip. In comparison, seats on Northwest Airlines 2364 from Detroit to Washington were going online for $288 coach and $837 first class.

Ford CEO Alan Mulally's corporate jet is a perk included for both he and his wife as part of his employment contract along with a $28 million salary last year. Mulally actually lives in Seattle, not Detroit. The company jet takes him home and back on weekends.

Kind of makes you do a forehead slap, huh?

I hear public outrage with the idea that people who don't even own an American car is expected to throw good money to bad and bail out companies who's business models are complete failures.

What is even better is that given the example of the financial bailout ;the giver-ment is likely to reserve a seat in the board rooms of these corporations . What better place to secure patronage?! We already saw how handily a politician can plunder from the bottom line at Freddie and Fannie. The only place I've seen politicians pocket line more effectively is at the UN .

What is even better is that given the example of the financial bailout ;the giver-ment is likely to reserve a seat in the board rooms of these corporations . What better place to secure patronage ? !!! We already saw how handily a politican can plunder from the bottom line at Freddie and Fannie. The only place I've seen politicans pocket line more effectively is at the UN .

Of course they want seats in the boardrooms, what better way to get the green cars they want? As I pointed out before, congress gave them $25 billion in September as quid pro quo to help cover the cost of meeting the new fuel efficiency mandates. Darn right they want a seat on the board, anything to gain more leverage to force their agenda and as you say to secure patronage, the cost to the public be damned.

WaPo gives another example of their thinking in calling for raising the federal gas tax a penny a month for 48 months (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/15/AR2008111502145.html).


In a perfect world, we'd like to see a gas tax that was the equivalent of oil at $100 per barrel. This would send a loud-and-clear signal to drivers to continue eschewing gas guzzlers for fuel sippers and mass transit. Automakers would get the message to speed up production of motor vehicles that meet or exceed the 35 miles per gallon by 2020 mandated by Congress last year. Instead of the money going to countries that have U.S. interests at heart in the same way a dealer cares about a junkie, the revenue would stay here -- and it could all be returned to the American people in the form of tax rebates.

Yeah that's the ticket, let's intentionally double the price of oil, force Americans to take the bus or buy a $25,000 hybrid, force automakers to build cars they like and all that money we rake in we're going to return to the taxpayers. Here's a novel idea for a perfect world, how about letting us keep our money and decide how to spend it?

Of course they want seats in the boardrooms, what better way to get the green cars they want?

Yeah San Fran Nan and her cronies are now auto engineers.Like I said ;Fords most profitable line cannot be sold in the US.


raising the federal gas tax

Actually I don't get too worked up over consumption taxes. They should do that with an equivalent reduction in income taxes however .

The only downside I see to the recent price reductions at the pump is that people will forget the days of $4+/gal.
Drill Drill drill... conserve ;convert to natural gas ,flex fuels ,hybrids , develop renewable alternatives become energy independent ,should still be a national priority .

Actually I don't get too worked up over consumption taxes. They should do that with an equivalent reduction in income taxes however .

I'd buy that, too but I know the likelihood of congress reducing or eliminating a tax.


The only downside I see to the recent price reductions at the pump is that people will forget the days of $4+/gal.
Drill Drill drill... conserve ;convert to natural gas ,flex fuels ,hybrids , develop renewable alternatives become energy independent ,should still be a national priority .

I don't disagree with that at all, it just gets old for government to penalize people to force change.

yeah a great PR move!

Spit I would gladly purchase American cars if they were of comparative value. Now everyone tells me that the engineering has caught up and when you buy a car from the big 3 you are buying dependability. I'll take their word for it.

That doesn't address however the point you just made ;that they are still not making cars Americans want. Yeah they captured the SUV ;light truck etc. market but that has not helped them maintain market share.

They have to face a reality . A worker at a Michigan plant does about 25 years and then retires in their 50s with gold plated retirement and health care packages . If this worker lives into the mid- 80s you are talking about as many years retired as were worked. That ratio is not sustainable. Even if they kept market share;with automation the auto industry just doesn't need as many welders as they used to hire. There are not enough workers supporting their "legacy" benefit packages .

If the big 3 moved out of Detroit and started fresh in a "right to work" state they would stand a chance. It's not even an issue of competing with foreign workers ........they cannot compete with workers in Tennesse making cars in America .Everything else being equal ;the consumer pays an additional $4000 in costs to subsidize this imbalance.


Jobs bank programs -- 12,000 paid not to work - 10/17/05 (http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm)

No jobs bank?

Honda, Nissan, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes all manufacture [ some of their ] vehicles in the US. Just in right to work states and without some benefits



GM Spends $17 Million Per Year on Viagra (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/04/gm_viagra.html)
;)