OK, all you Obama fans.

When he creates another monster with Nationalized health care, and 40 million people can suddenly go to the doctor, that aren't going to the doctor now, where are all these doctors going to instantly appear from?

Kind of makes you scratch your head, huh?

It won't work that way. They do go now. They get medical care from real doctors at many hospital ERs.

There are too few doctors in the area I live in now and I actually mean a 200 mile radius. It takes 2 months to see a specialist and it doesn't matter how serious your problem might be. The palace guards won't let you get near the King.
If you have a problem, you had better have a family gp that will be able to get you in with the specialist, in a reasonable time.

It won't work that way. They do go now. They get medical care from real doctors at many hospital ERs.
Going to the emergency room, is NOT the same as going to the doctor.

Ever been to the county emergency room, unless you are missing an arm or leg, with fountains of blood, you'll be there for hours before you are seen by anyone.

There are too few doctors in the area I live in now and I actually mean a 200 mile radius. It takes 2 months to see a specialist and it doesn't matter how serious your problem might be. The palace guards won't let you get near the King.
If you have a problem, you had better have a family gp that will be able to get you in with the specialist, in a reasonable time.
Do you have health insurance?

Medical schools. But it sure won't be the cause of "no child left behind" (no thank you to "Dubya"). It's times like these that we need to make education more affordable. But of course when just having a job is the of the utmost importance, eating and keeping a roof over head, the middle and lower classes families are bent over the proverbial barrel.

Medical schools. But it sure won't be the cause of "no child left behind" (no thank you to "Dubya"). It's times like these that we need to make education more affordable. But of course when just having a job is the of the utmost importance, eating and keeping a roof over head, the middle and lower classes families are bent over the proverbial barrel.

Medical school?

OK.

40 million people get insurance overnight, and medical school takes, what, 6 years or more?

I still see a problem here.

Medical school?

OK.

40 million people get insurance overnight, and medical school takes, what, 6 years or more?

I still see a problem here.
Read what I wrote.

Medical school?

OK.

40 million people get insurance overnight, and medical school takes, what, 6 years or more?


Longer than that in some cases, eight and ten years.


I still see a problem here.

No problem. Think of it like reducing our dependency on oil. A fair number of our medical staffing already comes out of other countries, the Phils and India. We'll temporarily grant more visas and at the same time give our bright children an upcoming opportunity to advance into the medical field.

Longer than that in some cases, eight and ten years.



No problem. Think of it like reducing our dependency on oil. A fair number of our medical staffing already comes out of other countries, the Phils and India. We'll temporarily grant more visas and at the same time give our bright children an upcoming opportunity to advance into the medical field.

I like your positive outlook.

Lucky for me, I don't get sick.

I feel sorry for those who do, that will spend hours just waiting for a parking spot at the doctors office, after waiting weeks or months just for an appointment.

I feel sorry for those who do, that will spend hours just waiting for a parking spot at the doctors office, after waiting weeks or months just for an appointment.
It doesn't work that way. Our library homeless guy is a testament to how medical care works now. Did you read how Michelle Obama and others improved the medical situation on Chicago's South Side?

One has to just remember it will just be a waiting list to get in, depending on your need.

One has to just remember it will just be a waiting list to get in, depending on your need.
I have excellent insurance, was triaged in the ER to the 3rd level, and waited in line behind uninsured people who were bleeding badly. So?

It doesn't work that way. Our library homeless guy is a testament to how medical care works now. Did you read how Michelle Obama and others improved the medical situation on Chicago's South Side?
What does your "homeless library guy" have to do with 40 million new patients and the same amount of doctors?

Prognur,

As a nurse I hear your plight. Many hospitals in my area are closing their labor and delivery departments. Why? Because of the high cost of litigation.

Our hospital has recently deported 2 wonderful ER doctors because their education visas had expired.

We have 2 OBGYNs in my county, we also have so called socialized (sp) medicine in my stated. Does it work? No, not in the way it was intended.

What does your "homeless library guy" have to do with 40 million new patients and the same amount of doctors?
He will be one of those 40 million. It works now because of our tax dollars. It can be done better.

It can be done better.

But how?

but how?
I trust he will use his own good brain plus those that surround him in order to figure out the best way to increase the number of medical personnel. No, it won't happen overnight, but he will start the ball rolling. Those 40 million are already eligible for medical care through the ER, and many of them take advantage of it. For instance, there are so many foreign-born and -trained doctors and nurses working at Chicago area nursing homes and hospitals, carrying bedpans and transporting patients. Certainly we can find better ways to use their skills, and open our shores to even more.

J9 ;excellent point about liability . Will universal care make doctors exempt from liability ? Will patients no longer have the right to sue over malpractice ? Will there be caps on rewards ? I have contended that lawyers were the biggest problem in the national health care debate.

Already many specialists have left the medical profession due to the cost of their liability insurance(especially in obstetrics).

Also ;can specialists expect to get the same incomes they get in a universal system ? I doubt it. It is less likely that a doctor will take the time ,and expend the costs for the advanced training.

Bobby is right ;we are like a 3rd world nation now importing doctors to administer to our populace . Already under our system the comparative cost of education can bring better returns in other professions.How could that possibly improve in a system that most likely will cap doctors wages ?

With the socialized medicine my state has, there are caps already to what the insurance company pays out for particular procedures and illnesses. This is why many doctors don't participate. The doctors that do are, well, less than excellent from what I have, and do experience.

Our country is sue happy. I see it on a daily basis. The lady who lost her child inutero is now suing me, the hospital, and the doctor. You see, we literally PRACTICE medicine. Every patient is on a case-by-case basis, the treatment differs for every patient. Did the fetus die because of something I did? No, it was due to other factors that I cannot mention here due to HIPAA laws, but nevertheless, I am being sued and I wasn't even on staff the day she delivered.

Doctors are getting out because of high malpractice rates, the high cost of litigation, and the sue happy people of our country.

Rather than working on socialized medicine and making health care more affordable to the uninsured public, we need to work on the litigation system and put caps on the suits.

I personally can think of 4 current lawsuits in my L&D department. All 4 were not due to any negligence of the doctors or nurses. They were all what is called unforseeable occurrences that were out of the control of the medical staff. Yet, these people are allowed to sue for millions of dollars. These cases should never have made it to court.

One that I can speak of had to do with a prolapsed cord. We cannot predict a prolapsed cord, so we treat appropriately, emergency C-Section. This baby is okay now and 6 years old... mom is okay and had 3 more babies since then. Yet she is suing the doctor for 10 million dollars.

Again, rather than changing the medical system, we need to focus on the legal system first so that doctors and nurses are no longer afraid of being sued for something they are required to do to treat patients. This is one reason many people are not going into the medical fields these days.

I agree with J_9 and Tomder
Also the doctors will be paid on a different basis such as flat rate opposed to commission so they could easily end up choosing the golf course over the delivery room when they choose to.

To Obama:

Involve the doctors, or like Hillary care it will fail.

Do not lower reimbursements - doctors will reduce or not see medicare or medicaid patients, because the reimbursements do not cover the costs.

Malpractice reform : LOSER PAYS will cut down on frivolus lawsuits. Limit lawyer fees to either an absolute amount 500 k or a fixed % [ 10 ] of award

Malpractice and tax deduction for charity care

To Obama:

Involve the doctors, or like Hillary care it will fail.

Do not lower reimbursements - doctors will reduce or not see medicare or medicaid patients, because the reimbursements do not cover the costs.

Malpractice reform : LOSER PAYS will cut down on frivolus lawsuits. Limit lawyer fees to either an absolute amount 500 k or a fixed % [ 10 ] of award

Malpractice and tax deduction for charity care

Americans are divided on whether medical malpractice lawsuits should be... | Public Agenda (http://www.publicagenda.com/charts/americans-are-divided-whether-medical-malpractice-lawsuits-should-be)


You make some good points here. More specifically though physicians to the exclusion of admin wages, and the insurance companies to the exclusion of humanity (our costs), have been overly involved and neglectful to others for their own benefit. As for the malpractice lawsuits I support a cap being put in place similar to how some states currently have determined partial and full disability rewarding once a injury case is proven.

Wondergirl - this country is not like Chicago. You are so narrow minded and besotted by what your Ocommie is going to supposedly do with medical care for everyone. Just how do think he'll solve this problem nationwide? Just supposedly solving Chicago's problem isn't enough. Didn't his wife used to be the Hospital Administrator for the Chicago University Hospitals (monied by the Rockefellers)?

The regular doctors practicing medicine today are so hesitant to treat patients due to the litigious populace expecting miracles such as J-9 pointed out that a lot of doctors and hospitals are not going to be open much longer in this country. Awards in the millions of dollars makes me ill to even think about. The PI attorneys really have jacked up the awards out of this world to collect huge fees.

Short of having clinics open with foreign born and foreign speaking doctors there will be no other choice at present should his health care program actually get made into legislation. I seriously doubt if it will either.

A new "report" said that over half of current physicians would seriously consider getting out of practice within three years because of the red tape involved with insurance procedures. When a provider who wants to heal is bogged down with all of this other BS noise, its so damn sad.

I don't give a damn if you are a rabid gop'er or extreme bleeding heart liberal. Both extremes p!ss me off to no end, with both sides seeking little good but to sustain their own political machines.

Trickle down health care doesn't work. The poorest of the poor, the ones with no real advocates or lobbyist are always left with the least, the worst. We have evil social systems in place. Likewise, dolling out more dollars through taxes to a government system that is inept, inefficient, and unable isn't an answer.

If you've never read Three Cups of Tea, do it. It isn't about health care, its about education. But it's a story of how one person, acting with intent and integrity can change the world. If more people acted like this, it would be a better place.

Republicans who claim a moral superiority, yet state an attempt at helping those most in desperate need (usually children and women) as communism, socialism are a disgrace to their "faith"... im a registered (R) by the way... democrats who pander to every social ill without a reasonable understanding of how standard of living is raised through job creation are economic idiots.

I'm sick of both extremes. They should be locked in a room together.

Those who b!tch and moan... ask yourself this. What have you done today to make your world better outside of your job/paycheck? How far out of your comfort zone are you? If you are Christian, how much stock do you place in your biblical calling to tend to the least of you first? Likewise, do you understand that social justice and personal growth, security, and wealth are not separate, conflicting positions?

You can demand social justice and not be a flipping socialist/communist. Highly centralized power (communism) fails. But you are kidding yourself if you think the US has free trade. Why do we subsidize crops we cannot grow at competitive prices when they can be grown in developing nations cheaper? Do we believe in free trade or not? Why do unions, who supposedly want to seek a better standard of living for their members, desire to abolish the "secret ballot" and to intimidate workers with home visits?

Yes... med school training takes time. What? Supply and demand no longer applies or does it only apply when its convenient?

I don't think nationalized health care is necessarily going to fix a damn thing. I also don't think the free market does anything but take care of the most successful and those employed by them, but does little for the people with no voice, no lobbyist.

Working through my church, I've seen way to many people on both sides b!tch and moan without doing a damn thing themselves to act locally. It's a crock.

If you are not your brothers keeper, then don't talk like you are. If you don't sacrifice something of your life for people who are in awful positions, who live in places that we would flee from, abandoning children with no voice to the wolves, I have no time for you.

I'm already sick of the partisan BS talk, and I'm tired of the hyposcisy on both sides of the aisle.

*rant over* man, I'm in a mood today...

*sigh* back after my rant. I'm sorry. I'm in the middle of a "paradigm shift" where I'm trying to find a way to balance being financially successful and being socially moral... and its not easy right now. I think I'm called to do more than I am doing, and I'm doing more than I was. Just wish more would step up and help. I'm seeing too many willing to donate a buck or two to charity, but who won't act directly to those in need... and we all know the more hands that money passes through, the less there is in the end. We need action on many levels, not more money, or more government. We need funding, we need structure, and we need a public who believes and acts in social justice and the power and responsibility we each have to meet that end personally.

So back on topic...

OK... there is a lag time connected to the numbers of physicians and the potential number of patients...

What about nurse practitioners, physician assistants, physical therapists, and certified midwives? Each can fill roles that can tend to the needs of many. Since 1990 the numbers and roles of nurse practitioners has dramatically increased with corresponding changes in how they were regulated.

We have talented people in health care. Nurses are one of the most important resources we have. Enabling them to do more with attainable certification is one great way to expand the care for any additional patients. Of course, that would mean the powers that be relinquish some power.

They didn't like it when DO's pushed to be on a level playing field. Today, a DO can teach right alongside MDs at med schools.

Good posts kp, thank you.

well... I'm not the moral police here. Make noise back at me at what will work.

for ex... foreign aid is a farce. When we give aid to other nations its often part of a sham. How much of that aid goes toward real development? You don't know... how much of foreign aid goes toward building up the military complex? Lots. Yet its packaged under the seemingly charitable title of foreign aid.

the "communism" that we fought in El Salvador... one of our most wretched lies, and I still am enamored by the spirit of hope reagan had in the US. The poorest people of the nation simply wanted some land. An ability to make a living. Instead we trained the opposition to kill... ever hear the phrase "be a patriot, kill a priest"? Those are the people we backed in the name of staving off "communism".

go there and meet the children. One in five will die before they are five years old.

so if working through the BS government noise doesn't work, what can?

this year I'm cutting my church tithe in half. I'm increasing my giving, but the rest will probably go through micro loans, directly to those in need without the layers and layers of sticky fingers.

if we want to provide primary health care, we need to pay for it. That might mean a change in how we allocate funds. Even well meaning agencies with good intentions can really screw things up. When HUD tried to eliminate slums through tearing down projects and relocating the poor to lower class suburbs, all they did was move the slums. The poorest still were unemployable, without systems of support.

our "bootstrap" mentality is too simplistic. Yes... I believe in the power and opportunity of the individual. But when you work with a person who has grown up in a terrible environment, you begin to see what systemic problems there are. A young person who has never lived in a clean home doesn't understand hygiene. Doesn't understand financial planning. Doesn't value what most of us value.

so how do you pull someone out of that mess? Individuals are saved one moment at a time, often by people making meager livings themselves. I just talked to a guy who applies for grants for three local homes... one tends to teens who are homeless, one is for young, pregnant mothers, another is for women. All aim to give them a place of security while teaching them about sustainable living. The guy who writes the grant work has done a great job. But I could see the stress in his face... he said "well, you are only as good as your last grant"... meaning he knew the whole house of cards could fall down, especially when people are giving less now in times of economic turmoil.

I talk to a woman who teaches as a PT at a local med school. She states one of the biggest problems with the poorest patients is they don't come back for checkups. That its not something that's been taught to them... so when they finally do come back its usually because some minor problem has developed into a major trainwreck.

is society to blame for this issue? No and yes.

obviously I teach my child skills and structure that I know will help him succeed in life. Others should do the same.

but its not that simple. There's a boy, labelled as a "problem" child in a tutoring class that I volunteer for. We never have enough tutors to match the number of kids in need. This "problem child" comes every week. Week after week. He has yet to be assigned a tutor and usually works with the bus driver who brought the kids there.

this is a case where the government is not needed. A person is needed. Two hours once a week is needed.

so... while it sounds like I'm off topic, I don't think I am. If we want to provide quality health care, especially to those who need help, it isn't enough to say "opportunity is there... this is the US"... and giving the govt more cash to burn isn't the answer either.

until you look locally at what's happening in your town, and start directly supporting those programs with many fewer layers of red tape, until you actually do something yourself, things will not change.

if we need medical providers like CNM's and nurse practitioners to be able to fill in the gaps, fine. Cut back the red tape. Provide funding for education for service to needing communities.

the education of poor women should be paramount. It clearly reduces pregnancy and increases standard of living, which pulls another name off the govt roster.

but it takes individuals to make a difference. Screw the DNC or GOP. I'm done wasting dollars on ad campaigns. If healthcare is really important, fine. Invest personal time being an advocate for an elderly person in need. Support a local clinic that helps those most at risk.

I'm angry because I've done all the wrong things myself. I've blamed the govt. blamed the poor. Blamed the politicians. Blamed the system.

nope.

its me.

until I get off my arse and actually do something that directly, positively affects someone else, I'm the problem.

KP, your arguments make perfect sense. I would like to add though, and going way down to the perverbial root of the problem... Why don't we pay our teachers more? All the way from elementary to secondary schools and above.

We can't have an intelligent society without good teachers who care. There are many people who qualify as wonderful teachers, yet after graduation go into other businesses because they pay more. My neighbor is an example. He has his Masters Degree in elementary and secondary education, but because of the pay scale, he works at a local tobacco barn where he gets paid three times as much as a teacher.

Without teachers, we can't have doctors or nurses. We farm out to other countries who value their educational system and their teachers.

No Child Left Behind is a comedy. My MIL has a child in her class who she is required to pass because the child has Down's Syndrome, and another that has ADHD. They don't have to do their homework, they don't have to take tests, they just have to show up.

While I believe we need to start with our legal system, we should also focus on our education system

Okay, off my soap box now.

Health care does cost money - there is no such thing as "free" healthcare, unless it is by healthcare professionals that cannot even deduct the loss.

In this country - those uninsured - are able to go to an ER and be seen - which is very expensive.

The cost of unreimbursed care gets spread out into less insurance benefits or higher out of pocket costs or higher premiums.

What is not addressed is rationing:
30 % of medicare $ goes to the last 6 months of care: there has to be a discussion whether 3-5 thousand dollars a day for an 80 year on a ventilator with no good prognosis - can that resource be better used for vaccinations or screening tests or prevention or treatment for chronic diseases such as diabetes or heart failure etc...

Another thing -
After high school
4 years college
4 years medical school
3- 12 years residency and or fellowship depending on specialty
- 100s of thousands in debt and at the very least you are 28 if not into your mid 30s
- then in the real world your working > 40 hours - if not double that - then you could lose it all in a malpractice suit.

Tell me what high school kid wants to be a doctor - go through all that and be exected to provide "free " care?

If you ratchet the salary's down to say under 100 k - only the independently wealthy could afford to be a doctor.

Oh I'm lock in step with you j_9... if you want to really improve the living conditions of a people, especially the poor, educating women is one of the key factors. You see dramatic decreases in pregnancy when women are afforded an honorable education. The book I mentioned, Three Cups of Tea... is about a nurse who was a mountain climber. He got lost trying to summet and was separated from his group on the way down. A local village basically saved his life. When he asked how he could repay them, they said they needed to be able to school their children and didn't have a school.

This guy, Greg Mortenson, was a nurse. Yes, making a wage more than some, but by no means raking in the cash. It took him two years to get the money to build that first school. He never stopped. His organization has built over 50+ schools in pakistan and afghanistan, working with local leaders to provide an education for women, in particular, and ensuring that these schools hold no political agenda or ideological training, all the while doing this in the middle of taliban country.

Quality education is critical. Preventative medicine is critical. I don't have the numbers at all, but I recently read about some plans that encouraged doctors to do follow up calls to make sure their patients were still on track. After running through this program it was estimated that over a five year period over 5K would be saved per patient in health care costs. I don't know enough to say more than I've said.. but clearly its easier and cheaper to provide much needed preventative care than it is to solve the much bigger problems that come with delayed or denied care.

Why am I no longer teaching? The wages in industry were far superior to what I got teaching, and I was at a university teaching science majors. I liked what I did, but to make numbers work theyd just cram more and more students into classes, and at some point good teaching falls away with heavy courseloads.

The simple truth is when the pay isn't there, many go elsewhere. Some have the heart and desire to fight through the noise. Bless them. But its pretty maddening when the people with whom we entrust our kids education have to choose between a better wage and a great calling. My cousin, a teacher, has to pay continually out of pocket for teaching supplies, and she's been teaching for years and years... her classroom is established. Yet she doesn't get the basic classroom supply support that shed get were she working in an office someplace... or without the fundraising of the parenting group.

Education and health care are two big pillars upon which stability and prosperity are built.

I am going to HAVE to get that book. I have a feeling it will become one of my favorites! How can I join him in his mission!!

If you really want to help prevent poverty - support the traditional two p[arent family - census statistics bear this out.

And it is true - a dollar spent on education is more effective [ at maintaining good health ] than a dollar spent on health care.

Lately there has been a huge demand for field surgery kits and field medical kits. They are in short supply. The folks over in England have even posted videos on YouTube on how to pull out your own teeth. The reason the British are pulling their own teeth is due to lack of dentists on the National Health Care System. The ones that are not on the system cost a fortune. A regular Brit cannot afford dental care or can't wait who knows how long to see a dentist if he can even find one on the system. A few years ago this would have been unthinkable. But now with everyone poor and/or broke due to the high cost of everything at least they are taking the initiative to do what is necessary. Ever have an abscessed tooth? Hurts like hell.

I notice that it's always health care but they neglect to add dental care which sometimes is MORE important than health care. Tooth decay and resultant abcesses has a lot to do with brain infections and possibly can prove fatal.

I got myself a field medical kit and if necessary I can use it due to not having to go to a foreign speaking doctor sometime in the future and being misdiagnosed. Or for an emergency in case there is no doctor around. You never know. Good thing to have.

I really pity the people who are hooked on the lower my cholesteral or diabetes drugs. What are they going to do when they have to get refills or see a doctor?

I was also wondering should America actually get this national health care. Will they stop putting MSG (and other ingredients) in our prepackaged food? Will they stop selling aspertame (insect poison) disguised as artificial sweeteners? Will they actually help people eat healthier and eliminate the obese people now walking around on our streets by having them go on good diets and teaching them good dietary health? I am appalled at the huge fatties walking around (or trying to walk I should say) and even the marshmallow children struggling to keep up with hugely overweight mama or daddy.

No, I am not making fun of these people as I am sure it is not pleasant being that huge. It does have something to do with the additives to our food that makes normal people just gain and gain more weight. The overweight people and the resultant expensive medical problems they incurr will vastly drain any kind of medical monies allocated for a national health plan. The fast food restaurants will literally have to be shut down or really overhauled and banned from adding the "obese" making ingredients they now add to the food along with irrational oversized portions. Supersize? Humongus obese size? Omega giantic heart attack size with extra cholestral?

I don't think that a national health care plan would really work if we don't stop poisoning our populace with the "obese" ingredients. When a person is obese they have health problems such as diabetes, lupus, heart problems, high cholesteral, arthritis, liver and kidney problems. Most of these people end up on the disability lottery due to being obese/overweight and not being a productive member of society and relegated to staying at home doing diddly.

KP, I have to agree with everything you said. I recently read in the newspaper about a lady in Long Island that is a school bus driver opening up a school in Haiti for kids to learn because there was no schools, not even one, in the town. She started with one classroom and one teacher. Now she is able to teach 1st through 5 and hope to keep expanding.

She paids for everything herself while maintaing her home and bills. She even have a lunch program in place and the kids depends on it.

Nobody knew she was doing this but after her town found out about it and her employer they started helping her by donating money. She even got donations from a private organization that heard her story.

It is great that there are people out there with big hearts. I will look for the story and post it if you want to read it.

Twinkie... loved most of your post, except the part about the foreign speaking doctor. I just spent a ton of cash to have my eyes worked on by a doctor whose last name is hussein. He is the best in town. Period. I don't give a damn about his accent. He trained in the US, did his fellowship here, and if you understand ANYTHING about the health and physical sciences... it is common to see that foreigners are often the best educated in theoretical issues... then they come, and often stay, in the US for clinical and laboratory training.

One of the best chemists I know is an iranian who worked in the petrol industry until he came to the US for graduate work. Today, he is one of the best teachers of our young doctors, scientists, and physicians.

Don't assume that a foreign dialect begets diminished care.

Exactly right Twink
I tell people how Canada, England, New Zealand and other countries with socialized medicine how bad off they have it and they think I am believing a bunch of lies, but I hear the stories from the people in the countries and my one friends friend died waiting for surgery.

I guess maybe we will have to get Doctors without Borders and those types of organizations involved with American patients.

NOhelp,
Do you see Canadians posting here about how terrible their system is?

No I do not but have any of you needed surgery to save your life?
Or to see a specialist for a life endangering problem.
It seems to me that it is easy for you to get to the family doctor but from what I have heard once you have a really serious problem you then see the problem.

I have heard many Canadians that said they came to Pittsburgh and other places in the USA for surgery because they were told they could not have their surgery in the necessary time to save their life.

I guess we'll have to take your word for it instead of the opinion from actual Canadians.

Nearly half the respondents in a survey of U.S. primary care physicians said that they would seriously consider getting out of the medical business within the next three years if they had an alternative.
The survey, released this week by the Physicians' Foundation, which promotes better doctor-patient relationships, sought to find the reasons for an identified exodus among family doctors and internists, widely known as the backbone of the health industry.
A U.S. shortage of 35,000 to 40,000 primary care physicians by 2025 was predicted at last week's American Medical Association annual meeting.
In the survey, the foundation sent questionnaires to more than 270,000 primary care doctors and more than 50,000 specialists nationwide.
Of the 12,000 respondents, 49 percent said they'd consider leaving medicine. Many said they are overwhelmed with their practices, not because they have too many patients, but because there's too much red tape generated from insurance companies and government agencies.
And if that many physicians stopped practicing, that could be devastating to the health care industry.
"We couldn't survive that," says Dr. Walker Ray, vice president of the Physicians Foundation. "We are only producing in this country a thousand to two thousand primary doctors to replace them. Medical students are not choosing primary care."
Dr. Alan Pocinki has been practicing medicine for 17 years. He began his career around the same time insurance companies were turning to the PPO and HMO models. So he was a little shocked when he began spending more time on paperwork than patients and found he was running a small business, instead of a practice. He says it's frustrating.
"I had no business training, as far as how to run a business, or how to evaluate different plans," Pocinki says. "It was a whole brave new world and I had to sort of learn on the fly."
To manage their daily work schedules, many survey respondents reported making changes. With lower reimbursement from insurance companies and the cost of malpractice insurance skyrocketing, these health professionals say it's not worth running a practice and are changing careers. Others say they're going into so-called boutique medicine, in which they charge patients a yearly fee up front and don't take insurance.
And some like Pocinki are limiting the type of insurance they'll take and the number of patients on Medicare and Medicaid. According to the foundation's report, over a third of those surveyed have closed their practices to Medicaid patients and 12 percent have closed their practices to Medicare patients That can leave a lot of patients looking for a doctor.
And as Ray mentioned, med school students are shying away from family medicine. In a survey published in the Journal of the American Medical Association in September, only 2 percent of current medical students plan to take up primary care. That's because these students are wary of the same complaints that are causing existing doctors to flee primary care: hectic clinics, burdensome paperwork and systems that do a poor job of managing patients with chronic illness.
So what to do? Physicians don't have a lot of answers. But doctors say it's time to make some changes, not only in the health care field but also with the insurance industry. And they're looking to the new administration for guidance.
One of President-elect Barack Obama's health care promises is to provide a primary care physician for every American. But some health experts, including Pocinki, are skeptical.
"People who have insurance can't find a doctor, so suddenly we are going to give insurance to a whole bunch of people who haven't had it, without increasing the number of physicians?" he says. "It's going to be a problem."

Half of primary-care doctors in survey would leave medicine - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/11/17/primary.care.doctors.study/)

I'm very sure that many doctors will go the John Galt route. Many already have. But I'm sure med school students will be high on the list of recruits for Obama's brown shirt brigade (aka Civilian Corps. )

Hello:

I've stayed out of this discussion because I don't know the answer. I only have more questions... Two, really:

1) Right now there are three people involved in YOUR medical care. You, your doctor, and your insurance company. I'm sure the insurance companies are making a pretty penny off YOUR health care expenses. So, why wouldn't it be cheaper for everybody if we threw out one third of the equation? Can't they make enough insuring cars and buying credit swaps? Don't answer that.

2) Ford, GM and Chrysler are going bankrupt because THEY are paying for the health care for millions and millions of people. Seems to me that our big three could compete rather well if they didn't have pay for health care. Since when does health care have to do with cars?? Don't answer that. I'm digressing here.

So, my second question is, why are we doing that? Ok, I know why we USED to do that, but should we do it now?

And, here's a third question... I know, I know. I only said two. But, it was asked at the debates, and I think it has a LOT to do with YOUR answers... Is health care a right?

excon

PS> Yeah, I'm guilty of ripping off a thread... So, sue me.

We all have no rights that involves rewards from other people. We have no rights that impose obligations on someone else. We have a right to seek health care and the doctor has a right to pursue a career in the field . After that it is a contractual situation. You have the right to act on your behalf . Not to results.


You are right the clerical demands of the bureaucracy of the system and the layers help drive up the costs. You think it would be less in a government run system? I don't .

I knew that someone would eventually bring up employers forced obligations (the big 3 have it worse because they can't say no to union demands for gold plated plans) . I agree ;the employer should not be pegged with the costs . McCain tried to address this problem .

No I do not but have any of you needed surgery to save your life?
Or to see a specialist for a life endangering problem.
It seems to me that it is easy for you to get to the family doctor but from what I have heard once you have a really serious problem you then see the problem.

I have heard many Canadians that said they came to Pittsburgh and other places in the USA for surgery because they were told they could not have their surgery in the necessary time to save their life.

Just a quick post and then I'll leave, I promise. ;)

NoHelp, I live in Canada, and I have had to deal with the health care system we have, and personally, I have to say that I've never had a problem.

Both my parents died of cancer, but not because they didn't get the care they needed.

When my mom was having problems breathing she went to our family doctor, he did some preliminary tests and then sent her to three specialists all within one week. The test results from all the specialists where back to our GP within days. If we didn't have the health care system we did then my mother would have died within months of her diagnosis, instead, she survived for 10 months.

Same with my father. As soon as I convinced him to finally go to the doctor, the very next day he was in the hospital having tests done right before Christmas. The day after Christmas the results were in and the day after that my father was in a private room in the Cross Cancer hospital get the best care available.

I've had to get a CT scan twice in my life. Both times I've only had to wait a week or less to get this test done.

The health care in Canada is great, I've never had a problem with it, and sadly, I've had to rely on it many times.

Just wanted to let you know. :)

Okay, I'll leave now. Good luck with your debate everyone. :)

The price of health care and the monthly premium is way out of line as to the cost of other things a family needs on a monthly basis. I have no health insurance. I don't want it. If I get sick I rarely go to a doctor. I go only if and when I'm practically dead. As far as me getting any kind of health insurance - I've been quoted such laughably high monthly premiums due to preexisting back problems that I have decided to just skip insurance entirely. I don't take any RX's either so there is no reason for me to see a doctor.

I don't think an average family actually needs any health insurance anyway. If they get ill or in an accident or whatever, they can just pay as they go. How many people end up at a doctor's office because they have a cold? Too many, that's how many. My former co-workers used to go to the doctors all the time for mostly small stuff. If anything they would come back to the office loaded down with more prescriptions to have filled. I'd ask them what's this one for? Oh, that's because my doctor thinks I'm depressed and I need this pill. Oh, I'd ask? You seem pretty okay all the weeks I've worked next to you now all of a sudden you need a pill because you're depressed? Oh, that's what my doctor wants me to take and I'm going to take it regardless, my coworker would answer. Two weeks later my coworker was in outer space to put it mildly and having to go back to the doctor for more space cadet pills.

Sometimes having health insurance is only a blank check to some of the pill crazy prescribing doctors out there who push the latest drug that some pharmaceutical rep had pushed onto him during his last visit. I lived with a pharmaceitical rep for several years and would listen to his spiel he would practice on me for his doctors, and these were some very high priced doctors in Manhattan's upper East Side no less. He pushed Endo of which Percodan and Percoset were some of the products of Endo. This was back in the early 1970's. The rx's were regulated by the DEA back then for these pills.

America is not made of huge metropolis cities but rather more of the one red light small towns with lots of farmlands and nothing and more nothing between each little town. I lived on a semi or 18 wheeler for almost a year and saw this beautiful country for 130,000 miles. Been everywhere at least twice. It's only when you have been in the middle of nowhere in one of these teeny tiny towns do you realize that this is the true America - not the big cities like NY, LA, Chicago, Miami, Jacksonville, Houston, etc. If Mom and Pop Farmer get ill and need a doctor and they go into the nearest town 15 miles from their home to the one red light towns and find that the doctor closed up shop and left, they will be forced to drive 30-50+ miles to a bigger town and hope to find a clinic or doctor still in business. What are they going to do with their now worthless, useless present health insurance policy? Use it to wipe Junior's vomit? Probably. Do you sincerely think that a national health plan would benefit the Farmers? Oh yeah, sure. It will definitely benefit those people living in the big cities as they will at least be able to find a doctor (hopefully) and hope that the doctor's office is on the national health plan. Obviously Altenweg's parents lived in a big city for them to get instant health care. Had they lived in a smaller city or small town, I sincerely doubt they would have received any remarkable care in any remarkable time table.

Also, in Canada, you must be a RESIDENT of Canada so that precludes any Americans from being treated there for free in Canada. If America had the same policy, then all of the illegal aliens would be denied any health care that they presently enjoy courtesy of Uncle Sam.

What is the benefit of paying high monthly premiums for health care when most people don't go to a doctor? Why not put the money into a bank account instead and use the money for when you have to see a doctor - not for every time you have a cold, or something trivial.

Most insurance plans have a copay for a doctor visit and copay on most testing done and copay on prescriptions. The main reason everything costs so much is because the pharmactutical companies can overcharge for pills and get away with it. Most hospitals must overcharge for testing as they have too many patients who use the ER as a local doctor's office and then stiff the hospital for the bill. The price of a hospital room has skyrocketed in the past few years for no other reason than that.

Most hospitals are closing their doors in California and elsewhere as they can't afford to keep treating illegal aliens who don't pay their bills. Also many doctors and hospitals are closing their doors due to lawsuits for any and anything a patient and attorney can dream up. They seem to treat these institutions and people like instant cash registers or lotteries where you win a zillion dollars.

And one more thing... IF we get some kind of national health care... I hope they stop with the Chemtrail spraying of the American populace with the chemicals that cause respiratory problems. A lot of people who have asthma would magically be cured as they won't have the irritants in the air to beathe. The people who have chronic respiratory problems like emphasemia would have far less problems as well. And a lot of the sinus problems would go away as well as we would not be breathing in the poison that is being sprayed on a daily basis by our loving government. Just look up at the planes spraying in those cute little tic tac toe patterns and watch the sprayed white material spread out and blot out the sunshine and wonder why you suddenly have developed a sinus infection or flu like symptoms.

Hello:

I've stayed outta this discussion because I don't know the answer. I only have more questions.... Two, really:

1) Right now there are three people involved in YOUR medical care. You, your doctor, and your insurance company. I'm sure the insurance companies are making a pretty penny off YOUR health care expenses. So, why wouldn't it be cheaper for everybody if we threw out one third of the equation? Can't they make enough insuring cars and buying credit swaps? Don't answer that.

2) Ford, GM and Chrysler are going bankrupt because THEY are paying for the health care for millions and millions of people. Seems to me that our big three could compete rather well if they didn't have pay for health care. Since when does health care have to do with cars??? Don't answer that. I'm digressing here.

So, my second question is, why are we doing that? Ok, I know why we USED to do that, but should we do it now?

And, here's a third question... I know, I know. I only said two. But, it was asked at the debates, and I think it has a LOT to do with YOUR answers... Is health care a right?

excon

PS> Yeah, I'm guilty of ripping off a thread.... So, sue me.


Yes, Excon, for once I actually agree with you on the throw out the insurance company and keep the baby. They need to stick with insuring cars and homes instead.

The answer to why we do that now and didn't do it in the past? Easy. It makes the insurance companies rich, rich, rich. That's why. Too easy an answer, Ex. Why not ask something hard for once like you usually do. The insurance companies already make a bazillion dollars off the American public with mandatory car insurance. Ok, that I can see. But mandatory health insurance, no. The car insurance is bad enough for the privilege of driving a car which can be a lethal weapon. But health insurance, no.

And no, I don't think health care is a right per se. A lot of people would actually live longer and have better quality of life if they were not hooked on so many rx's that make them sicker or nuttier or whatever. Most rx's actually have such awful side effects that a doctor will happily prescribe you another drug to take to alleviate these side effects.

Also, have you ever noticed that we have a rash of strange TV diseases - stuff we never heard of years ago that you just haffta haffta go to your local pill pusher and demand the latest whatever pill for this new TV disease that you just saw a commercial on TV that you are convinced that you have this disease? Or am I halucinating again??

Ain't going to sue you. Sorry.

Great points . Doctors these days are being trained to be front end distributors of pharmaceuticals.

great points . Doctors these days are being trained to be front end distributors of pharmaceuticals.That's the free market at work.

I am glad you are not having problems with your health care.
I am like Twink I have no health care. I take care of my own health by taking supplements for my ailments. Like I take hylaronic acid for my joints, magnesium, antioxidents and other things.
I have said for years insurance companies are basically scams.
If it weren't for the insurance companies, fake mal practice suits and the pharmaceutical companies insurance would be a lot more affordable. With the government taking over and people having to have medical coverage it can and most likely will end up eventually like a monopoly that keeps raising prices.
I agree with Tomder, the doctors are not really taught much any more about healing people. Instead they are taught what drugs to push for what symptoms.

What happens if you break your leg?

I go to the ER and they fix it and I have a bill that I can pay as little as $5.00/$10.00 a month on.

How do you get a payment plan with no insurance?

They never said I had to have insurance for a payment plan.
Our ER's are not suppose to be allowed to turn anybody with a serious to life threatening problem down. Some do though.
When my kids were little I had medicaid and/or I went to clinics that went according to your income for their general practition doctors.

Excessive litigation and over regulation in Western society has driven the rise of parallel private institutions. Home schooling, private education, the cash economy — all are in their own way miniature expressions of revolt or dissatisifaction with the public system. Maybe one of ultimate ironies of a all-encompassing state is that, as was the case in the old Soviet Union — is that everyone will opt out of it at the very moment when it becomes omnipotent .

AT one time I was not like Twink. I had cancer, sure I paid monthly for my insurance policy, very little actually at the time, but thank GOD I had it. My bill was over a million dollars by the time I was done with all of my treatments and surgeries that lasted over 8 years from beginning to end. All I ended up paying, besides my premiums, was $500 out of pocket.

Sure you can walk into the ER and get payments if you don't have insurance. But what about the millions of dollars I would have had to spend had I not had insurance.

My case is much more common than those who never get ill, or never see doctors. When you get cancer or other more serious illnesses, of course you can't predict them, you can't go to clinics that are based on income. You have to go to specialists. These specialists have paid big bucks to specialize in their field. They deserve to get paid what they are worth.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened."
Norman Thomas(American Socialist 1948)

Yes tom, we know you are a conservative who is scared of the anything that is not labeled 'conservative'.

Government health care : here is a thought.

Just about the time Medicare part d was pushed on us at a 700 billion dollar cost over 10 years, and there still is a "donut hole,"
Walmart started offering generics at $4 / month. Other pharmacies followed suit. When I worked at the VA, there was a $8 co-pay for these same generics?!


"If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free."

To add to the quotes below ;):)

Also another reason I have to really question the pharmaceuticals is
I was watching the NBC news a couple weeks ago and they said that Drs. Have admitted that nearly 45% of the scripts they write are placebo's. SO many of the people that are crying that they have to choose between buying groceries or co-paying for their multiple bottles of pills are being ripped off and that is America.
I really am thankful for people like J_9 that need their coverage that they have it. BUT from what I understand medical coverage should not be so expensive in the first place but they have made it a multiple billion dollar business.
I even learned when I broke 3 bones in my foot and got an $849
bill for the doctor to just look at the x ray and say you have 3 clean breaks. I wish I could charge that much just to look at a picture and say 5 words!
They said they charge people without insurance over double what they charge insurance companies.
Anyway, I say insurance and the charges are a racket and if they were being fair and honest it wouldn't cost so much.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened."
Norman Thomas(American Socialist 1948)

Said by a socialist and believed by a conservative. Yeah I would say I who am more a libertarian have to agree with Tomder.